Befriending The Other Woman
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This is John Cameron Mitchell and my new fiction podcast series, Cancellation Island, stars Holly Hunter as Karen, a wellness influencer who launches a rehab for the recently canceled. In the future, we will all be canceled for 15 minutes. But don't worry, we'll take you from broke to woke or your money back.

Cancellation Island's revolutionary rehab therapies like bad touch football, anti-racism spin class, and mandatory ayahuasca ceremonies are designed to force the cancel to confront their worst impulses. But everything starts to fall apart when people start disappearing. Karen, where have you brought us? Cancellation Island, where a second chance might just be your last.

Listen to Cancellation Island on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Welcome back to I Do Part Two. It's your favorite real life besties. Yes, we are still single. It's Thelma and Louise.

But on this podcast today, we thought it would be really interesting to pivot off of our story and bring on another non-celebrity gal who went through some serious heartbreak out of her marriage, navigated the dating world, and has found herself having a hard time.

happily remarried, living her amazing chapter two. Welcome, Jennifer. Would just like to quickly point out that Jennifer and I have been best friends since we were in high school. She ruled the school. I wanted to be her, and I still want to be her because she has absolutely been my muse as I've watched her gracefully go through divorce,

date like a fiend, and now get remarried to the most amazing man. So Jennifer, take it away. Teach us what to do and how we can live the life that you are living.

Well, and before, wait, actually, I want to interrupt. Before we begin, I also know Jennifer through Louise, and I have not known her nearly as long as Louise has, but have formed a friendship with her over the last couple of years and really only know her in her life today. So don't know, well, I've heard, but don't know a lot about her history. So this is going to be equally as interesting to me as it is.

hopefully will be to all of you listeners. Jennifer, getting to your story, take us back to the beginning and tell us a little bit about your love journey and your chapter one. - Okay, first off, I just need you both to know, you could give my eulogy. - Let's hope you're not going anywhere soon. - Unbelievable. - We're not doing life without you, but carry on. - All right. Okay, in like a cliff note version, I was married young

Back then, it didn't feel young. So I was married, had two kids, fully in love with my husband at the time. And after about six years marriage, 10 years together, we have two kids in diapers. And I wake up one day. It's important to give some color to the age. What age were you when you got married? And how old were your babies when all this was going on? So I was married at 26 years.

I had children at 28 and 30 when I woke up one day and realized the marriage was over.

I had an 11 month old and a one and a half year old, right? Yes. Yes. So I had like a two and an 11 month old. Yeah. So that's definitely the Clipnote version. Take us back a little bit. How was your marriage? So I would say it was a healthy relationship that had its normal problems and

certainly nothing that I ever saw coming that we were, you know, that we were done. But when you go through a process like that,

Throughout the next months and years, you start things start to click and you go, oh, OK, I'm reading. Now I understand what that was where I didn't understand to look for certain things at the time. But what were what were some of the normal problems? OK, let's see. So I have two kids in diapers and we didn't have sex enough. We I wasn't emotionally affectionate enough.

Is that according to him or how you felt towards him that you weren't bringing? No, this was according to him and why he left me. So, you know, of course, all those things, it's kind of like when you're younger and someone, a teacher or a family member tells you something and it sticks with you for the rest of your life. So now here I am when I find out why he's left me or his reason for why he left me.

I'm now all messed up in my head because I'm like, oh, I'm not affectionate enough. I'm not emotionally available enough. We're not having sex enough. So I was using all of those as like why I wasn't a good enough wife and why he left me. Did you think you were having problems or were you kind of in la-la land about it and were completely surprised? Because everything you just said were basically kind of complaints he was blaming you for.

I remember speaking to one of my friends that I'm very close with and telling her that I wasn't very happy about how I was feeling. I wasn't, I was not sure what I was feeling. I just knew I wasn't totally happy. And one of the things, the main thing I thought was,

We have two kids in diapers. We're really busy. And right now, some of our own one-on-one relationship is going to be on the back burner because here we are, like, you know, racing around with, you know, this one needs diaper change. This one needs a feeding. Like, you just, life is, it was hectic at that time. Yeah. You don't always see yourself changing.

or your relationship, at least in the short term with young children, maybe is the priority. And so it's hard to make sense. Is this a relationship issue or just a time of life change in our relationship? Yeah. And I didn't, you know, I will take credit in maybe I didn't give him the kind of attention he needed.

But I didn't know I wasn't. So you began to sense the, you know, the unraveling was happening. But, you know, everything, you had the babies, you just bought that brand new house. And by the way, there was no unraveling. That's the part that was so crazy is that I literally was like, I thought I was going crazy when...

He basically told me he was leaving. Well, he didn't tell me he was leaving. He gaslit you. He was a trainer and you helped him through a relationship land what became his biggest client. Now, as listeners, do we all see where this is going? Yeah.

Probably not. So let's hear it from you, Jennifer. So what happened, so to speak? Like, how did this bomb go off? So again, you know, I think a few months before I found out, I remember being on a trip with him and realizing that we weren't connecting. And the one thing I always knew about our relationship was that

We always connected. It just took a minute if we were busy with our lives. But when we would go out to a party or go out to dinner with a couple, we'd come home and like regroup to what our night was like, even though we were experiencing the night differently. And we went on whenever we went on trips, we really bonded. And so we went on this trip and I came home and I remember coming downstairs and saying to him,

And we didn't bond on this trip. You were so distant. Something wasn't right. I don't feel good at all. And one of the things we used to do is play rummy cue. And so I remember going upstairs and being sad. And then I came downstairs and he had the rummy cue out on the kitchen table like, oh,

He was extending an olive branch to our conversation. So here I was thinking, okay, he acknowledges that we weren't vibing on this trip and he's trying to make better for it. And like, you know, make it go away. Like, let's start from here. So for me, there was no awareness of that he was having issues with me. Right.

But was he staying out? Was he coming home late? Well, I guess when you are somebody who has a day job as a trainer, he was home at night. So it was the daytime that I would have no idea to question where he was and all of that. But there was one moment that we were at an amusement park and we

We ran into the person that he had started to train when all of this distance started to take place. And I thought that was very weird that we ran into her only because if he wasn't with me at this amusement park and my and one of my boys, then he would have been seeing her to train her that day. So there had to be some sort of.

awareness of what their day was. - So I think at this point, let's just rip the bandaid off on that and quickly say that he started having an affair with this person. - Yes. - So can you tell us about how you found out kind of what happened, how the explosion happened? Because it was a shock, the babies were young, I watched all of this. So why don't you share with our listeners what happened?

So I remember, you know, not to get like, I mean, I could tell you the day and I can tell you the time, the actual time of day and what I was doing in my kitchen when this happened. And I remember it was probably the second or third time in that process of about a month and a half that I said to him on the phone because he was on his way to go train his client that

I said, I'm not happy. And it wasn't the first time I said it to him. And this time, instead of him gaslighting me, bringing out the rummy cube table, you know, game, telling me nothing's wrong. He said on the other line, neither am I. And those three words right then and there, I knew my marriage was over. And I,

I remember saying, you need to come home and I, and we need to talk about this. And I remember him saying to me, I can't right now. Like there were other priorities, which to me was baffling because how could there be anything else important other than God forbid something happens to your child. You come home after a conversation like that. And he, he finished his day or his client and then came home. Obviously it makes sense now what he was doing, but he,

when he came home, I kind of grilled him like, is there another person? No, there's no other person. Is there like, what is going on? I don't understand. And he just told me that he wasn't happy, but he couldn't tell me why he wasn't happy. And so I can't remember exactly the chronological way it came about, but it definitely, you know, lended itself to

I'm not affectionate. I'm not emotionally available, that kind of stuff. And again, it didn't line up because we, I mean, we were celebrating our 10 year together and we kept the same anniversary as our wedding date. So we were celebrating almost seven years of marriage, whatever the years were. So for me, I couldn't make sense of it. I mean, I went so far as to like,

Heck, the vitamins he was taking, like, is there something wrong? I couldn't make sense of it. Well, because you would ask the questions. You'd ask the poignant questions, and it sounds like,

He didn't really answer them. He kind of put them back on you. That's what they all do, right? I mean, all these men, when they get caught, they flip it around and they say, no, you didn't do this or you didn't show me the love or the affection. They try to deflect it. Did you ever like...

from when you found out versus, you know, having a weird feeling, were you doing any like snooping or kind of searching around or obviously there was no life 360 or anything. Well, so remember this is 2002. So we didn't have the same, like texting hadn't even really happened yet. So it was different. So the only thing I could have done is waited for a bill to come in the mail for credit card.

And it didn't even dawn on me to do that. So we didn't have that kind of snooping around. However, I do remember, well, I do remember seeing one credit card bill, but it was after I had already found out. So it was irrelevant and it was flowers and I knew they weren't for me. But at that point, it was just another like,

you know, pain in my heart, but I had already known at that point. So how did you actually find out? So he, we had friends that we shared, but most of, we both came to the table with, you know, I came with a lot of friends and he came with a small group of friends. And I always kept my distance from some of his friends because I knew about

Certain things that I just, I always thought it was a little safer that like they were his friends. Plus I have so many friends. It was good for him to have his own friends, but there was one friend that I became friendly with the wife and the

Prior to us splitting, about probably several years before, they had had a marriage misplaced. They definitely had a moment hiccup. And while that was happening, my husband asked me if the husband could live with us.

And of course, we had the space and he lived with us. And thankfully, they worked out their marriage. They had a young kid in diapers at the time. And so living with us helped him get back on his feet with what he needed to do in his marriage. So they are still together. And what happened was for about two weeks from that day that he told me he wasn't happy and me trying to figure out like,

Is this a midlife crisis? There's not another person, he said. What is happening? What is my role in this? What can I do to make it better? He went and he stayed with a mutual family friend. And I, about 12 days into this nightmare, I get a phone call and it's from this couple. And the husband had told the wife and the wife was like, she helped us during our hardest times, right?

We're she's got to know. And she came and she said he's having an affair with this person. Oh, were you sucker punched? It didn't surprise me, but it gutted me. So I don't know. I mean, I knew there was an inkling of something wasn't right with this person in him.

But when he told me that there was no affair, I believed him. I really did. I did not think he was a liar. And you wanted to believe him, right? Of course. We all have that kind of voice in our head where something just kind of raises the hairs on our neck. But at the same time, we choose to not want to see things or we want to believe somebody's words because your whole life is

as you knew with young, it was getting blown up. You know what I'm saying? Like, I mean, absolutely blown up. And one of the things I'll say is I also come from

You know, my parents now have been together over 62 years. And yes, they've had problems. And yes, they've, you know, I don't know everything that's happened in their marriage. But I always, I came from stability of this example of two people that truly loved and liked each other. And so getting cheated on was like not in my repertoire.

This is Ashley Kennedy from the Ben and Ashley I Almost Famous podcast. It feels like everyone is talking about GLP-1s these days. Those are Ozempic and Semaglutide. And with future health, you can find out if they're right for you too. Maybe you feel like you've been struggling with your weight for years, and no matter how much you diet and exercise, you just don't feel healthy. Just go to tryfh.com to find out if weight loss meds are right for you. Tryfh.com

Hey y'all, I'm Maria Fernanda Diaz. My podcast, When You're Invisible, is my love letter to the working class people and immigrants who shaped my life. I get to talk to a lot of people who form the backbone of our society, but who have never been interviewed before. Season two is all about community, organizing, and being underestimated.

All the greatest changes have happened when a couple of people said, this sucks. Let's do something about it. I can't have more than $2,000 in my bank account or else I can't get disability benefits. They won't let you succeed. I know we get paid to serve you guys, but like be respectful. We're made out of the same things. Bone, body, blood.

It's rare to have black male teachers. Sometimes I am the lesson and I'm also the testament. Listen to When You're Invisible as part of the My Cultura podcast network. Available on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

This is John Cameron Mitchell and my new fiction podcast series, Cancellation Island, stars Holly Hunter as Karen, a wellness influencer who launches a rehab for the recently canceled. In the future, we will all be canceled for 15 minutes. But don't worry, we'll take you from broke to woke or your money back.

Cancellation Island's revolutionary rehab therapies like bad touch football, anti-racism spin class, and mandatory ayahuasca ceremonies are designed to force the cancel to confront their worst impulses. But everything starts to fall apart when people start disappearing. Karen, where have you brought us? Cancellation Island, where a second chance might just be your last.

Listen to Cancellation Island on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. I need to now bring something up because it's something you and I have now since discussed and we look at it differently. Yes. I don't know if you know what I'm going to say. I know what you're going to say. So when you met him, trainer husband. Yep. Yep. He was...

Well, finishing a relationship. Yeah. Yeah. It was still in a relationship. And I always believe once a cheater, always a cheater. And you said, well, we were younger and we were kids and he, you know, it's different. It's like, no, no, no, no, no. That was his pattern. That was still his pattern. And quite frankly, when we tell our listeners what's going on now, I think it's still his pattern. And I, I don't, but I hear you and agree with you.

What I would say, and I just, as bad as it is that it's like, oh, he was with somebody when I met him, I was 21, and he was telling me he was not going to be with her anymore, and I said, I'm not going to be with anybody while they're with somebody. But we did form an emotional relationship in that process without things happening, but at

But at 21, you don't know better. It wasn't a comment on you. No more me identifying a potential red flag in him. That was maybe just, you know, in hindsight, you say to yourself, hmm, it makes total sense. But I guess where you and I differ about the once a cheater, always a cheater is I do believe that

I did for, you know, the 20 years they were together. I did believe that he really wouldn't do that. And I don't know if he did or didn't. But I do believe that as we get older and our relationships and life gets on, I do believe that.

affairs happen for different reasons so you have couples and I know some of them who they're not they're not sexually involved with each other anymore but they love each other so they stay together for that reason and one of the people in the relationship doesn't want to have sex I mean I've even said to some of the people I know guys and girls in this situation where I'm like

If they did step out of their marriage, it wouldn't be the same version of an affair that I think what he did to me at the time. 100%. There's a lot of ways to skin that cat. So shit hit the fan for you. Big time. Hit the fan. And what I remember watching, because I think this is kind of like

really heartbreaking bad situation but what I appreciated about you is you hit the ground running on the dating thing now it's probably a reaction to the rejection and how you were feeling and you wanted to rip that band-aid out quickly and you you were like spinning and spiraling and you were literally juggling so much but you I think within the first month went on

One on a date, multiple dates, correct? A week later. Wait, I want to take a step back, though, for a second. I know this is maybe not a popular thing to say, but

Jen, you are a smart, capable woman. And even if you did have two small children and might have been, you know, in a fog raising kids at the time, was there any part of you that when you found out relief probably is not the right word, but in a way like, okay, I'm not crazy. And now I have to deal, you know, with this. And at least I know, like, because I think so much of it often can be, you know,

the not knowing and thinking you're going crazy. And so what do you do? Because you don't have the information. I think that getting the information was an aha, not even an aha moment, but it clarified things for me, but then it brought in a whole other level of

bitch for me that I couldn't, I didn't for those two weeks, wasn't even thinking about. So like, tell us, tell us more, you know, about that. Well, just now your brain is like, okay, he's with this woman. My kids are in diapers. She's going to raise them. Uh,

You know, I have to sell the house. What am I going to do? You know, my job doesn't make enough money, but I love what I do. I just now have to kick it into gear. Like your life kind of flashes in front of you. Like what am I going to do? And I've got two kids and diapers. And who's going to want to date? Who's going to want to date a girl with two kids and diapers? Good point. How old were you at the time? Do you know? 31. Okay. That is so young. Yeah. Yeah.

31 to 32. Okay, so Louise alluded to the fact that you hit the dating scene. So in the midst of your crazy, probably, you know, no sleeping and your mind going a mile a minute on what your life looked like, practically speaking, it sounds like you started dating. I started dating. I slept with somebody probably the first two weeks into this. And I remember it was so awkward.

Unlike her nun-like friends, Shalma and Louise. Well, here's the thing. But you got to remember, I was in relationships from like 15 on, right?

I never got to like sexually experience much. I was experiencing a lot of different experiences. - And how'd you like it? I mean, were you having fun? Were you doing that and then going home and crying or was it like actually fun? - Okay, so the first one is the best. I'm dating this guy. - Well, hold on, just to interrupt. Were your kids going back and forth between both houses so you had 50% of the time to kind of-- - At the time, before anything happened, it went 70/30.

Because we had to go through mediation and all that before I was going to just give up more time with the kids. But I did have parents who were right up the street from me. So if it was a Thursday night and I would let the kids go to sleep and they, you know, be with a family member or somebody who was in my home. So it wasn't like...

I was leaving them, I was part of the day and then I could go out where I didn't have to introduce anybody to them. - So how did you meet people? Because did online dating even exist? - Yeah, yeah. The only thing that existed was JDate and Match and it was so, so new. You didn't have Facebook, you didn't have any of that. So it was just Match and JDate and-- - So you couldn't verify, you really couldn't verify people-- - Yeah, and when I, well,

The first date that I had had nothing to do with any of these apps. In the beginning, I was being set up. And this first date, this poor guy, he was so lovely. If I had a furniture that needed to be moved, he'd come and move it. He was so good looking. And he was younger than me. And I'm not into younger guys. But this guy, it was the first time we slept together.

I just started bawling in front of him. - I'm sure. - And it was so awful because all I wanted to do was be home. And I remember as we started dating, he slept over once on a weekend that my kids weren't here. And in the morning he said to me, "Do you eat breakfast?" And I was like, "Yeah, like why?" And he's like, "Well, I don't know. "Do you want to have breakfast or whatever?"

And the way I reacted to him, he looked at me and he said, wow, if that wasn't, here's some eggs and a big cup of get the fuck out of here. And I was like, I'm so glad you get it. Like, yeah. Like, I want you out. I want, like, nothing to do with you right now. And there's a part of you that wants to move on. And, like, that's your right. You know, during the day, I think I was really...

emotionally distraught, lived a rejection feeling all day long. So there was kind of a duality to your life going on at this point, right? Totally. There was a major duality that is so beyond painful. In addition to her, you know, dealing with the fact of the infidelity and a rejection and having to navigate dating and still having heartbreak.

There was another woman who was mothering her children in diapers, very different than a 15 year old kid who's dealing with a stepmom. I mean, I never got over the stories you told me. Like I was seeing red and I was always so impressed with how you stayed high when I would have want to ripped. I would have ripped my child off of her lap.

So you had a lot on your plate that was painful, uncomfortable, uncharted territory. And I just want to compliment you, Jennifer, because you always do wow me with how you behave. No, genuinely. The one thing I would say that I've learned at looking back on it and have some humility in, I did with some of these guys' heads because I would...

get a drink in me, see them at night and be in it. And then in the morning, I'd want to be out of it. And I think I really messed with their heads. And I think I hurt people and used them. And at the time, I didn't know that's what I was doing. But looking back on it, I definitely played a role in not behaving the way I would want someone to treat me. Do you feel like you did that

Because it was, again, the duality of your life where it's like you wanted the freedom and the lightness at night and then the heaviness of the day. Or do you feel like you inherently at the time were kind of having trust issues with men and just weren't going to ever let yourself or let your guard down? And creating a wall. You know, I didn't have trust issues with men necessarily.

Because I didn't, I only found myself in relationships. And this is what's interesting because this is where your I do part two comes in for you girls dating. And not that you don't know this, but I realized that all of these men that really were giving me their attention and wanting relationships were

I think they wanted the relationships because I couldn't care less. I could take it or leave it. And so that was what was attractive to them. And that is why they were still in it, because I didn't care. I didn't need them.

You were like the dude in the relationship. I was. I was. And I didn't know it at the time. I just, now when I looked back on all of those pieces of my life, I realized, yeah, they wanted me because they couldn't have me. Because you were unavailable. You can't fake that. You know? It's just, it is or it isn't. Yeah. Yeah.

Hi, this is Jenny Garth from I Do Part 2. Who do you know on ozempic or semaglutide right now? Everyone, right? These game-changing weight loss meds are everywhere. And future health makes it easy to get started. Find out if weight loss meds are right for you in just three minutes at tryfh.com.

Future Health is not a healthcare services provider. Meds are prescribed at provider's discretion. Results may vary. Sponsored by Future Health. Hey, y'all. I'm Maria Fernanda Diaz. My podcast, When You're Invisible, is my love letter to the working class people and immigrants who shaped my life. I get to talk to a lot of people who form the backbone of our society, but who have never been interviewed before. Season two is all about community, organizing, and being underestimated.

All the greatest changes have happened when a couple of people said, this sucks. Let's do something about it. I can't have more than $2,000 in my bank account or else I can't get disability benefits. They won't let you succeed. I know we get paid to serve you guys, but like be respectful. We're made out of the same things. Bone, body, blood.

It's rare to have black male teachers. Sometimes I am the lesson and I'm also the testament. Listen to When You're Invisible as part of the My Cultura podcast network. Available on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

This is John Cameron Mitchell and my new fiction podcast series, Cancellation Island, stars Holly Hunter as Karen, a wellness influencer who launches a rehab for the recently canceled. In the future, we will all be canceled for 15 minutes. But don't worry, we'll take you from broke to woke or your money back.

Cancellation Island's revolutionary rehab therapies like bad touch football, anti-racism spin class, and mandatory ayahuasca ceremonies are designed to force the cancel to confront their worst impulses. But everything starts to fall apart when people start disappearing. Karen, where have you brought us? Cancellation Island, where a second chance might just be your last.

Listen to Cancellation Island on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. So tell us about how you met your current love and how long it took, you know, just briefly, like you dated around. I dated for like, let's see, I dated for about five years. And then one day, it was Father's Day, and I was...

Coming home from Malibu and I was in the backseat of my parents' car and out of nowhere, one of my parents said, oh, so-and-so gave your number to this guy. And I remember thinking, okay, whatever, I'll never hear from him. So it didn't matter. And then I remember walking, my parents dropped me off and I came into the house and my house phone rang and I answered it and it was this guy.

And I was thinking to myself, really? First of all, I had a Blackberry. So he called me on my house phone, which I thought was wild. But then again, who gave him my number was an older person. So they're going to go with the house phone. He had a really good phone. And then we went on our first date. He's a babe and he's funny as shit. He's very funny. Very dry sense of humor. Back East kind of guy.

integrity more than I've ever seen. But it was a slow burn for you, which is important because this is a lesson you're always trying to teach me and to teach Thelma and to teach other people is...

The slow burn sometimes has the staying power and it's the integrity and all of those kind of characteristics which are so much more important than the immediate butterfly or whatever the spark you feel or the things that you think are important that really aren't. So talk a little bit about him. I remember when he proposed to you, you had some pause. Yeah, and I knew I didn't want to give...

the relationship up. And if you say no, then where do you go from there? But I also knew that I wanted him in my life. And so I had to really think about that. It was, you know, when meeting him that first night at dinner, he like interrogated me. He's so bad on dates. But

He was so funny. I remember going home. I remember calling my mom in the car saying, yeah, it was a great date. He's really handsome. I'll never hear from him again. And she's like, why? I said, I'm too old for him because he's 10 years older than me. But at the time, you know, he could have had, you know, girls in their 30s. And that's just the real I was in my 30s. You know what I mean? Girls in their 20s. And, um,

It's just a double standard. And so I just thought I'd never hear from him. And the next morning, I opened up my Blackberry and...

And there was a text that made me laugh. And I was like, okay, I'm into it. I'm in this. And we always say how important laughter is. It's my favorite thing. So important. I mean, it's like, and he makes, he's funny. He's funny. And that is something that like when somebody says like, what are your favorite qualities about him?

You know, integrity is always the first thing. Always the first thing to say to me. But the funny, and yes, I know he's handsome. I'm not discrediting that. And yes, would I have ended up with him if he wasn't handsome? I don't know. Maybe I wouldn't have gotten to the next steps with him. But certainly that is not what our relationship is about.

And it's been 17 years? 16. 16 years. And what I have witnessed just in being in your lives, and I know what you've also shared is, his integrity has continued every day because he really... And I think it's important to talk about how he really stepped up in a meaningful way as a co-parent to your children. And what really mattered to me, he brought to the table. And you always say that. I think...

What I marvel at is that you obviously, your first chapter was a huge, you know, a huge pivot and turn in your life that you never expected. But yet you have been able to go on and date and get married. And having been, you know, through a divorce myself, I've

I think time is the greatest healer and everybody wants to expedite that. And you just can't to a certain extent, but what other things or advice would you give to people that are struggling kind of post-divorce right now? Like what advice would you give to them? And what do you think helped you, you know, remain open to finding love and dating again? Well,

I feel like even though I always felt like I was walking around with like that scarlet letter on me that I was left, I was the girl that, you know, here I was at, you know, a school where all the kids in kindergarten and first grade and second grade and my kids were like, everybody's parents are married. And I always felt like I had this, this like this.

thing I was carrying with me that I walked around during the day as somebody who was left. And I think that was something that I brought to my inner core, but I didn't present that on my dates. And when I was with people, you never did ever, but I carried it inside my core. And so for me, I am a slow learner. So it took me.

I would say just till COVID. So that's what, four years ago? When it finally clicked that this wasn't a me issue. I played a part in it of all the stuff that happened through those years of raising my kids with him and having to go through that very difficult process.

But it wasn't a me issue. And I always thought it was. I thought I was the bad person in I wasn't handling it well. I was creating more drama than needed to be. And some of it I was. But I finally realized something clicked about four years ago. I saw him at like a parking lot and it just dawned on me. Oh, yeah.

No, this is a him issue. This is who he is or was and who he is with me. And I've allowed him to dictate how I feel about myself. And I finally woke up that day. I remember coming home going, I will. It's like I just purged all that stuff I held about me and was able to actually heal and work on me for the first time.

That must be, I mean, so freeing. And it kind of segues, I feel like, into our next topic, which you may know what that is. But in a strange turn of events, right, your ex-husband recently ended his relationship with the woman who helped facilitate the end of your... The homewrecker. We're going to call her the homewrecker. Stop, stop, stop. Sorry, homewrecker. ♪

This is Ashley Canetti from the Ben and Ashley I Almost Famous podcast. You probably know somebody who's on Ozempic or semaglutide right now. These are really popular medications that people are using to lose weight if it seems like all other options aren't working for them. Go to tryfh.com to find out if weight loss meds are right for you. Tryfh.com.

- Tryfh.com. - Future Health is not a healthcare services provider. Meds are prescribed at provider's discretion. Results may vary. Sponsored by Future Health. - Hey y'all, I'm Maria Fernanda Diaz. My podcast, "When You're Invisible" is my love letter to the working class people and immigrants who shaped my life. I get to talk to a lot of people who form the backbone of our society, but who have never been interviewed before. Season two is all about community, organizing, and being underestimated.

All the greatest changes have happened when a couple of people said, "This sucks. Let's do something about it." I can't have more than $2,000 in my bank account or else I can't get disability benefits. They won't let you succeed. I know we get paid to serve you guys, but like be respectful. We're made out of the same things: bone, body, blood.

It's rare to have black male teachers. Sometimes I am the lesson and I'm also the testament. Listen to When You're Invisible as part of the My Cultura podcast network. Available on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

This is John Cameron Mitchell and my new fiction podcast series, Cancellation Island, stars Holly Hunter as Karen, a wellness influencer who launches a rehab for the recently canceled. In the future, we will all be canceled for 15 minutes. But don't worry, we'll take you from broke to woke or your money back.

Cancellation Island's revolutionary rehab therapies like bad touch football, anti-racism spin class, and mandatory ayahuasca ceremonies are designed to force the cancel to confront their worst impulses. But everything starts to fall apart when people start disappearing. Karen, where have you brought us? Cancellation Island, where a second chance might just be your last.

Listen to cancellation Island on the I heart radio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Tell us a little bit more about, about that and some, the irony here. I would say throughout all these, you know, I call it 20 years because really I can, I think about, it was 20 years in, in this process of their relationship. And, um,

There were times where the two of us, we always, you know, we always did birthday dinners, graduations, important things we would do together. And you always showed up with a smile on your face and you were so mature and so gracious because you did not want your children to

suffer. And the truth is my kids were going to pick up on stuff regardless. I mean, there's only so much we can hide from our kids and depending on their age. I was lucky that my kids were the age they were. So I was able to navigate that a lot easier than other people we know who go through this with their kids being of a different age. So I would say that

Throughout the years, we were either hot and cold with each other. There'd be times where my ex and I were fine with each other. We're never great with each other, but we'd be fine. And then there were times we were not fine at all. And I'm sure she had to feed off of that and navigate and was also only hearing his version of what was going on. Although she was privy to the emails and the bullshit that we did. But, yeah.

But she was coming from his place and she needed to support him. But what I would say is I would say to you, Louise, I would say like, well, you know, I could see us being friends if we didn't have this situation. And you'd be like, out of your mind, like what? Like that's not possible. But I always knew that we had we were comfortable together.

awkwardly uncomfortable around each other. That says a lot about you because there are many women who are in this situation that can't even be in the same room as somebody. And it's just a testament to who you are. But it's interesting because now that their relationship has changed,

And life is full circle. Yes. And, you know, your kids have obviously remained close to her because she did be, you know, she was a part of, you know, parenting them for 20 years. But I just find it so fascinating what is going on with the two of you. If you're there with our listeners, because I think this is so interesting. And I think, you know, for people who've experienced this and who may be in the throes of a situation like this,

you know, to see how life can change. And in the most unexpected circumstances, you have a new friend and a new ally. And I also think, please bring up to everybody that like the story she was told was different than what happened. Yes. More different than the story he told you. Uh-huh. And I think she...

We ran into each other several months ago and we had a conversation and that conversation led into her calling me after the conversation, like 15 minutes later and having a little bit more of a conversation. And then when I hung up, I had said to her, if you ever want to grab a drink, I'm available. And I think somehow within a few weeks later, she

she may have texted me and that was my opportunity to basically ask her out for dinner. Did you offer that as some version of a closure that you needed or were you offering it to be you know an ear for her to talk to? A combination because I had already made my own closure

So I didn't need it so much, but I would have loved if I was given that at the time. And one of the things that she said to me after our first dinner, our first date. How many have you had now?

I think four or five. I mean, you're almost exclusive at this point. He's going to join our girls' dinner soon. You don't want to sit at a table with a few of us. But go on. Do your kids know that you guys have sex? Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. No, we definitely talk to the kids. The kids are too old to not know, and they actually are very happy about it. Does your ex-husband know? Well, I'll share that in a second. But what we've given each other is forgiveness. We've given each other a space to feel good.

seen and heard and it's safe hopefully to share the pain we've both experienced and that very few people can experience that kind of pain and I think it has been healing more so for her to be able to

Have that. But I also think it gives, honestly, because she's heartbroken. Well, we assume. We assume, yeah. Okay. And she loved him. And I also think if I were in her seat and I would see the beautiful life that you created, you know, and the phoenix out of the ashes, it would give me hope that I too can experience, you know, another chapter after what happened to her. And I think that that's

part of it also. Well, and I think as a side note, do you remember a couple weeks ago, you also said, oh, we should set her up with this guy, which I was like, wow. I mean, if that is not the kindest person I've ever met, but that's on a light note. But more seriously, when Louise said, Jennifer, if that had happened to a lot of people, your story, never would they have

been kind or welcoming or any of those things to, to the ex, um, and the ex's, uh, partner. But I think that, I think that you are such an example because so often the anger that we hold when we are going through a divorce, we, we fail to realize that it's like,

That anger is just a cancer in us and it's punishing ourselves. And it's really easy to say, you know, Oh, move on. But it's like,

It's when that miracle happens that you finally can let go and you realize you're like, I'm just punishing myself and keeping myself in this holding pattern by staying angry and giving the other person and the event and all of it like more of your time. And I think you're such an example of of how to do it. And in the rearview mirror, it makes you really subscribe to rejection is anger.

It really is. And, you know, I would say it's definitely shaped me for who I am now. And I think I'm the best version of myself to date. Always room for improvement. But one of the things I didn't mention was when I met my husband, he's a product of this very same situation. So he came to my life first.

and opened up my eyes what it felt like as a kid going through this. So he helped me navigate that place. He also helped me navigate what it was like because one of the things that I wanted was I wanted my ex to approve of me, to like me. I wanted his wife or girlfriend to like me.

And he it's the same thing as I was saying with dating. If you want something so bad, you're so not attractive and you're not going to get that. And when I finally realized when I said earlier, oh, this isn't a me issue. There was nothing I the only thing I was doing was forcing something that they didn't want with me.

Well, that was you trying to resolve probably the rejection piece, right? Like that was still trying to you to kind of get their approval and be lovable, basically. Because you were so, you heard, and what you learned to do was basically to quote Mel Robbins, let them and then let me, right? Yeah. Yeah. But that took me so long. Of course. It really did. Like I said, I'm a slow learner, but when it finally clicked,

I went, oh, okay. Like, I wish I could take back time and like apply it then, but I just didn't have it. And Thelma, when you asked me earlier, like what kind of advice would you give in my business to,

I am approached by women and some men, but mostly women, weekly with a situation like this to some degree, whether it's about an affair or a marriage not working out or a relationship ending. And the best advice I would give for me is, and I've said this so many times to people in my office, is be kind. You can be in a relationship and not be happy and want out.

But just be kind about it. And I've said that to so many people who are not in marriages that are working. And I'll say to them, just all I can offer is if you don't want to be in this marriage and your partner does, be kind about it. Because a marriage, if it's not going to work, it's not going to work. But how you treat somebody at the end of the day, you exit. It's how you is huge.

And also it's not the way it looks today is not the way it necessarily looks five years, 10 years. Like, you know, so, so you always need to act with integrity kind of back to what you said. Yeah. And one of the things on our first date or after our first date, she said to me, you deserved a different ending. And that was something that really resonated with me because it was like,

Thank you. Now you like, at least it was like the end of an aha moment. You needed that. It was her version of an apology. So before we close, I do have an important question as somebody who is in a very day to day, you know, situations with Thelma and myself. So you are somebody who dated successfully, tried on a lot.

has been in a really happy marriage. What advice would you give to us so that we too can get to your kind of final destination? What are we doing wrong? Like share with our listeners as somebody who's, you know, basically stepped through that sliding door and we're still where we are. Like help us. I think it's less about what you're doing wrong

I think I feel two different things. With Louise, I feel... This is good. Brace yourself, Bella. I know. Oh, here comes the attack on Louise. And I've said this to you. You need to give something more time. I don't think you need to give something time that doesn't feel good from the get-go. But when you are, you know, you've met somebody that makes you feel excited and looking forward to going on that next date and that next date...

And when you're with them, you come back feeling really good. And when you're not with them out of sight, out of mind, I think that, and I've said this to you, you need that push of spending the night and waking up and going through the process.

- Awkward breakfast. - Right? Yeah, and like all of your quirks and stuff. - Be more gray, not black or white. Like you have to decide, am I going ahead with this or am I breaking it? - Yeah, like just be in it enough that you know that, you know, you really know that person

Intimately, not sexually, but intimately before you know if they're right or wrong for you, unless there's no feeling. I got it. It's just hard because the opportunity of having dinners with Velma and Jennifer, like we'll be doing in one hour. It's just, it really lights me up. I have to say it's a very, it's a very hard act to follow. And what advice would you give? I know what's my advice. Okay. So your advice is,

I have noticed as we've gotten closer that you really could care less about putting yourself together and going out. You'd rather put yourself together to go out with the girls and you'd rather...

you have a date and him cancel and you're happy about it. - You are so true. - That is not going to get you out there meeting Mr. Wonderful who gets to appreciate you. - No, I told you my brothers always said they are not gonna find you in your home. - In your pajamas. - Yeah, and by the way,

I mean, like that last date, I was just so happy you went on it for 40 minutes. It was 58 minutes, guys. It was 58 minutes. Tell them what I said to you. So just quickly, and then we'll close up. So she had a date last week and we don't want to, we want to leave them wanting more. So we were going to cap it at an hour, 530. And then I was going to swoop in and get her at 630. And then we were going to go hit. Wait, let me first say, do you know what Louise initially said?

okay, well just keep your seats at the bar. Tell him you're ending the date and I'll just take his seat. And I was like,

- Okay. - Dear God, I am a lot of things, but I am not tone deaf. I am not gonna tell him to get up so somebody could take his seat. I'm like, I'm gonna go out the back door or the front door and you're gonna swing by and pick me up. - But when I had said to her, I said, look, I'm gonna check in mid-day and if you wanna continue the date, we don't have to have dinner that night. So I text her and I'm like, yo, should I get in the car? She goes, yeah, I'll be ready in five minutes. I was like, what? I'm gonna get in some traffic and she goes,

I'll just, I'll pick you up. She goes, nope, I'll walk across the street and get our seats at

She's at the bar and she was perched there. And when I walked in, I felt like the prom queen. Her face lit up. You were so happy to see her. Oh, and I got totally buzzed that night because I was giddy when I met Luis. It was like I nursed a drink with him and then I was like, oh, my night can begin. Yes, I definitely like that. So you see what you're connecting the dots here? I am. I want you to get giddy when you see your girlfriends, but I want you to make an effort to just not a date a week, but just...

just set your standards of like, I'm going to show up. I like the data week. I am all for the data week. I understand. And by the way, kudos to you that you guys can find that and do it. I mean, it's hard when you live in a city. I have two dates this week. I know. I'm very proud of you. I'm not going to burn, but you

You know, two days. Well, I just have to tell you, Jennifer, thank you so much, honestly, for coming on and sharing your story. It's very nice when somebody is willing to be vulnerable. And thanks for sharing your journey and telling everyone, our listeners, what you've been through. And hopefully it serves to be inspirational for people who are going through it right now. And kind of a lesson that even if you have a traumatic experience, you still can find your part too. Yep.

And I just, just one more thing to add. If you guys, as our listeners enjoyed, uh, participating in Jennifer's, you know, story, uh, Thelma and I have a lot of people with a lot of stories, um,

that would love to come on and share. So, Oh, there's so many people with these kinds of stories. We have a big crew of people. So if this resonates with our listeners, let us know. But the people who, you know, again, they're going through it, but they also have a light at the end of the tunnel. So if you are struggling with post-divorce, we would love to help you. Apparently I may not be the right person as I've just been given the advice, but

Please call or email us, follow us on socials, and all of the information will be in the show notes. So make sure to rate and review this podcast. I do part two, an iHeartRadio podcast where falling in love is the main objective.

Do you know that Ozempic and Semaglutide are GLP-1s? Of course you do. How many people do you personally know that use weight loss medications? Future Health is giving millions of people affordable access to weight loss meds for less than $3 a day. Almost 2 million people in the U.S. were taking Semaglutide medication in 2021, more than three times as many as in 2019. This is so much more than a trend.

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This is John Cameron Mitchell and my new fiction podcast series, Cancellation Island, stars Holly Hunter as Karen, a wellness influencer who launches a rehab for the recently canceled. In the future, we will all be canceled for 15 minutes. But don't worry, we'll take you from broke to woke or your money back.

Cancellation Island's revolutionary rehab therapies like bad touch football, anti-racism spin class, and mandatory ayahuasca ceremonies are designed to force the cancel to confront their worst impulses. But everything starts to fall apart when people start disappearing. Karen, where have you brought us? Cancellation Island, where a second chance might just be your last.

Listen to Cancellation Island on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.