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Brought to you by State Farm. Like a good neighbor, State Farm is there. You're listening to I Choose Me with Jenny Garth. Hi, everyone. Welcome to I Choose Me. This podcast is all about the choices we make and where they lead us. I've been internally struggling with something and I want to talk about it today on the podcast because
We are becoming a real community here at ICMP, as I like to call it. You know, I like my abbreviations. And my hope is that by me sharing today what I've been going through, maybe it will help some of you listening to not feel alone. Maybe you're experiencing something similar.
And then later, I am going to be joined by my guest, Dr. Lisa Orbe-Austin, to talk about this. But first, let me just start with talking about my experience. I think this is what people are calling imposter syndrome. I don't know if I'm in on that title. I've always thought it was just called fear syndrome.
The fear of not feeling good enough, maybe. But maybe once I hear from Dr. Lisa and I understand imposter syndrome a little bit better, I will have a different perspective. Okay, so here's what's going on for me right now. I am embarking on what will be a pretty big kind of defining mission.
move in my work life and inevitably in my personal life. It's a path I never saw ahead of me. I think I've mentioned before that I am not much of a planner, but this I for sure did not see coming. You guys, I am about to release my very own fashion line called Me.
It's going to be exclusive with my friends at QVC and there will be monthly drops starting July 29th, which is just in a few days. It will be full on collections of styles that I love and that I want to share with all of you. So it's super exciting, but it's also kind of bonkers to me. And here's the point. Here's the real reason that I'm breaking this news to you today in this way.
Because when this opportunity came to me, when I got this unexpected call, this is the neighborhood my mind went straight to. I wrote down some of my thoughts as they were happening. So let me just read them to you. Did I ask for this? No. Do I know much about the fashion industry? No, not really. Can I tell a woven from a slub knit? Nope.
So you're saying you have no idea what you're doing. Then why are you doing it? I mean, you don't even have that great a style, do you? Didn't a friend recently tell you that you should just wear what they told you to wear in order to look good and succeed? Aren't you over 50 and washed up? Yeah, you should probably back out and keep hiding from the world. Okay, yeah. So what is that? What is this? Why does my mind take me there like that? Why do I automatically think that
I will fail or worse yet, I'll succeed and then what? Will I not have what it takes? Will everyone find out that I'm a fraud? I have faced negative self-talk my entire life. So what you just heard was really nothing new to me. Messages like this have been and still are something I deal with pretty much on a daily basis. Me being my own worst enemy.
my worst critic, my biggest hater. And I've felt these same sort of feelings before way more times than I would really like to admit.
Whether it's feeling inadequate as a mom at times, like times when my girls are struggling with something and I have to dispense advice to them. And I feel like I'm making things up as I go, hoping that it will all work out. I felt like this when I signed on to do a comedy as an actress on What I Like About You. And I was surrounded by people who had...
a lot of experience doing comedy and they were so funny and confident. And I felt like I sucked so bad at it. I just, I told myself I should quit and I should leave the building and never come back. And in my relationship, sometimes I feel like I have no idea what I'm doing. Like I'm messing things up left and right. Like I should just move to a deserted island with my dogs and live alone forever.
Like no matter what it is, I feel somehow unworthy or not good enough. And I feel like I shouldn't even try to do whatever it is that's ahead of me, that's scaring me. And I want to know why am I like this? Is this imposter syndrome?
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My guest today is a psychologist, an executive career coach, and the co-author of Your Unstoppable Greatness. She is an expert when it comes to imposter syndrome. Please welcome Dr. Lisa Orbe-Austin to the I Choose Me podcast. Hi, Dr. Lisa. Hi, Jenny. Oh, my goodness. So nice to see you. Thank you. Thank you for being here. Thank you for having me. Okay, first off...
What is imposter syndrome? I don't even think I really know. And maybe for some of our listeners out there who may not know what it is, can you just give us the definition? Sure. So the original term is the imposter phenomenon. And what it means is that while you are skilled, talented, capable, have the credentials you need to succeed, you haven't internalized them. And as a result of not internalizing them, you tend to fear being revealed as a fraud.
And oftentimes that happens as a result of making a mistake or an error or having a moment of failure. And
Usually we choose one of two paths when we're confronted with that. We either overwork to try to show that we do deserve and we do belong there, or we self-sabotage and get into situations in which we are kind of trying to prove to ourselves that we are truly a fraud and don't belong where we're given the opportunity. And so these kinds of cycles kind of tend to repeat themselves around triggers for us around performance and achievement. Yeah.
Okay. Okay. So you heard what I was just talking about, about my inner voices. What do you think? Is that imposter syndrome? It sounds very much like it. And I'll tell you what, when I was listening to you, I was sort of taking some notes about sort of what
sounds familiar. And some of the things that sounded familiar as you're talking through your narrative of this experience of starting your new fashion line is that it's a new experience. So new experiences are often a trigger for us because when we have imposter syndrome, we're often aiming toward mastery, doing things that we know we're good at and we know we can succeed at almost 100%. So having something new on the horizon that feels unfamiliar. And the other concept
that I think is out there too is oftentimes we see if someone's given this kind of opportunity, they must be expert. And we have a very narrow concept of what expertise means. It means, like you were saying, knowing the difference between different types of fabrics or cuts. And this may not be the only reason you're given an opportunity to do something like this, but we often have a very narrow understanding of what expertise means. And it's often something we are definitely not.
So that was there. I also heard pieces of perfectionism. So this idea that you have to be perfect or else you're not, you know, good enough, you know, as you were learning to be on the sitcom and kind of finding your own voice and finding your own comedic kind of talents. This idea of overestimating others who felt so confident, so comfortable and underestimating themselves.
the talents you were giving that you weren't looking at at all. So a lot of these narratives, having the worst critic or being your worst critic, all of these are elements of imposter syndrome. And the hallmark is worrying that you're a fraud. The dreaded F word. Fraud.
Why does my mind do this, though? Like, why are we wired that way? Yeah, I mean, I think you point to something even in the question fundamentals is that oftentimes it comes from our childhood experiences and early kind of dynamics. So there are a lot of familiar early dynamics that happen as children. And that's why it feels so wired.
why it feels so automatic, like I have no choice, because the ways in which we were raised as children oftentimes groove these things very, very intensely. And so it feels like we have no other choice when we do have other choices. These ones just feel really familiar and almost comforting, even though they are problematic to us. I think that's the way it is with most automatic sort of
self negative inner dialogue, inner talk, right? It's like they're grooved into the into your brain, like they're so easy and automatic. Yeah, yeah, we call them automatic negative thoughts or ants, you know, that are just really, really familiar. And I think the ants is a great, you know, kind of metaphor for the thought because while it is small and tiny, the thought it feels really heavy can lift more than its weight, you know, has a real powerful, you know, kind of
resonance for us more than even the truth is for us. Yeah, it's so true. My friend, Dr. Amen, had talked to me about that before about ants. And I think everybody has them, automatic negative thoughts. Yeah. Yeah.
Yes, just unfortunate. I've got to be honest, like sharing this in this way on the podcast, it feels kind of vulnerable, a little embarrassing. Like I'm a little ashamed almost even to admit to like my daughters that I don't know what I'm doing as a mom sometimes or that I doubt my abilities or my self-worth or my value. I would think as a 52-year-old woman, I would have gotten a little bit better at this. Yeah.
Yeah. And I think that to me, you know, as a clinician, somebody who writes about this work, it is the fundamental piece of overcoming it is being able to speak about it, being able to share the vulnerabilities, being able to talk about it with people that we care about, that we are not perfect, that we are flawed and that we're working on things. I think it is the best message you can send your children that at 52, we're still working on stuff because this idea that by 52, I'm perfected is just...
just not an accomplishable goal. Wouldn't that be nice? Yeah, I know I'm 52 too. So yes, it would be nice. I'm not there yet either. So I do think like that is one of the things we talk about, about overcoming it is being able to admit it
And being able to feel the embarrassment of it and realizing it didn't kill you, you were able to do it. And actually, oftentimes I find that it actually inspires other people to tell their truth because I often talk about my own experiences of imposter syndrome, which are quite embarrassing too. And it often, instead of humiliating, embarrassing me, it makes other people feel like they can share theirs too. Wait, wait, wait. You have imposter syndrome? Yes. Yeah. I've had it probably my whole life. Okay. Okay.
I want to hear what your imposter syndrome voices are first. But I also want to know, is it like that? Is it something that just comes out of nowhere? Is it something that you've heard your whole life and now you're just kind of like really recognizing and listening more to? Yeah, I mean, I think for me, I think because I was being trained as a psychologist, I had heard about the term in my training.
and I knew it immediately. I had experienced it. But at the time, one of the things that I think was detrimental about hearing it for me was that I didn't hear like what I could do to overcome it. I just heard what it was. And I thought, okay, I'm stuck with this the rest of my life and I'm just going to deal with it. And I think that's why we wrote the books is to help people understand there are actual things you can do about it. And so for me growing up,
you know, I often felt like I wasn't good enough. I think, you know, I didn't know this, I think growing up, but I think I had learning disabilities that were never diagnosed. I think I had ADHD and it never got noticed. And so as a result, I thought I was slow, not very smart, not capable to keep up with my peers. And it just evidenced itself in academics because I wasn't getting the proper support I needed academically. And I had to overwork and over-function in order to keep up with my peers.
And so for me, it's a story of feeling like, you know, so we talk about some of the childhood experiences are you get labeled as one of one of three things. You're either the smart one who doesn't have to work really hard and not recognize that, you know, everyone has to work hard at something like that's not that's not true. Even if you're talented or brilliant, a lot of ways you always have to kind of work. It's just a natural piece of it.
or the hardworking one where there's somebody identified in the family who's the smart one or the capable one and you're the one who has to always grind it out. And we often see the correlation between the hardworking one and learning difficulties or learning disabilities. And then the last one, the survivor. So somebody who's using their achievements to escape a very difficult or neglectful or abusive home and that the achievements were meant to kind of rise you out of that. But the idea is that once you make one mistake, you lose everything.
And so for me, I was the hardworking one. I was the one that everything had to come from super grindy hard work or else I couldn't achieve it. And so that's what I always thought that was the situation. And so anytime I made a mistake or I just didn't work hard enough, I had to work harder. I'm never going to be expert. I'm never going to be good enough. I'm never going to be like those people. And so it just trailed me pretty much my whole early career.
Yeah. When you say there's three childhood personalities, basically, that you kind of fall into. Types. I was definitely never labeled as the smart one. So scratch that off. I am a hard worker. I've always been a hard worker. But I don't know about the survivor one. Is this one? I always felt like
as the baby of the family and I felt like the fortunate one or the favorite one or the like whatever like everybody sort of treated me a certain way because I was the
the hours to the his and the hers. I was the baby, you know? Yeah. Yeah. I think it's possible because in essence, in that baby kind of, you know, experience, it can be like, I got this because I was youngest. I didn't get this because I deserved it or I was good enough. I got it because of this particular status that I didn't do anything to deserve. I just happened to be born last. So it could be that experience too, of feeling like I didn't really deserve this kind of being put up in this way.
Yeah, that might be it for me. I mean, a big part of it because I did have a different, I do have a different life than where I grew up. I do have a different life than my siblings.
And I've always felt a little guilty about it. Like I've always felt like I, why me? Did I, why am I the one that got this life and not that life? Yep. Yeah. And I think that can be a real, you know, we talk about that in the first book about survivor's guilt and this idea that you're surviving something or, you know, it doesn't even have to be something hard, but you have a different experience and that, that, that different experience is full of success that perhaps you
The thoughts are perhaps you didn't deserve or why did I get it and not everyone get it evenly or why did I get it? And like, this is different for my siblings who had a struggle or whatever it may be. And sort of there's a bit of a shame about success. And so I think oftentimes then it's like burying the success because you also don't want to make your siblings feel uncomfortable by the success or the especially if they're struggling or have struggled. And so the success becomes complicated.
almost kind of covered in somewhat of a shame as well because it's not something that feels good to talk about or to share because someone else got something different. Right. And it's such a weird position to be in because being in the public, being a public figure and being talked about, I always was like, no, I don't want to, don't spotlight me. Like just everybody's equal and look at all the hard work and just trying to always be
make everybody around me feel equal. And I just never wanted to stand out. Yes. And that's a really common experience. But it's okay. Not until very recently did I have someone tell me, someone that I love, say, it's okay to be amazing. Like, it's okay. Yes.
Because guess what? We're all amazing in our own ways. Yes. Yeah. I mean, that's why we call the book Own Your Greatness and Your Unstoppable Greatness. Because I do think we do feel a lot of shame around our successes because either they're tainted in some way or they're imperfect in some way or they've got some baggage connected to them. And it affects the way we internalize those successes. And as a result of that makes us feel like we can't carry them with us. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
It's so, so interesting. And I, back to what you said before about, like I was saying, I kind of feel a little embarrassed or shameful talking about it on the podcast, but like, that's one of the things that I've learned that's so incredible about having a podcast is being vulnerable with
the audience and the people that love me and that are listening and just want to have this connection, you know, that vulnerability is what it's like the fiber, the tissue that connects us all. And I, that there's so much comfort in that. Yeah. And so much healing, I think. Yeah. And connection and, and the feeling of like you were saying earlier, like community, people feel a sense of community with you and you can be vulnerable in it because they also are dealing with it and not able to share it or not able to share it in these kinds of public formats for sure. Yeah.
Yeah. My mom was always very sort of like free to be you and me, teaching me a lot of different alternative ways of thinking and telling me how incredible I was and that I could do anything. But I feel like there was also, you know, I didn't have access to this information. Like I often tell my girls like, wow, you are so light years ahead of where I was when I was your age just because of
the knowledge that you have access to and like the people that you get to listen to, like podcasts, like in listening to experts like you. But I was also going to say probably also because of your parenting, because your parenting gave them the next generation of what your mom was trying to do. You gave them 0.20 or 0.30. That's why they also were enlightened to look in this way. I love that about, yeah, like how your parents tried their best. They
And then you learn what you learn and then you go and you try to do your best as a parent. And then it just gets better and better and better. Hopefully. Hopefully, yes. Okay. So it isn't something that I just have experienced in a work environment or situation. It pops up all the time. Like I was talking about when I doubt myself as a mother sometimes or even as a wife. I...
think that I'm not doing a good enough job or I have no business even being in a relationship sometimes. I'm like, oh, you suck at this. But is that just me doubting myself or is that imposter syndrome or are those the same things?
Yeah, so I think oftentimes we talk about it in a work context because I think the triggers are probably just more like consistent in a work environment because you're trying new things, you're taking risks, there are other people in the environment challenging your performance. So I do think that's where we talk about it most often, but it does occur in relationships because it is
it is what we struggle with, right? And so these kinds of triggers can happen in relationships as well, parenting, partnering, all kinds of relationships. And so I do think one of the things that I see as a psychologist is when you can work on it in one area, I see it ripple effect through all the other areas. And so oftentimes people come to work on it related to work and then they'll say, oh my gosh, my relationship with my partner is also shifting. And the way that I feel in this experience parenting feels different.
because I do think it's really about shifting the way that we see success and the way that we see relationships should function or the ways that we see that we should be performing. And it really gives us, hopefully as we work on it, an idea that like everything we, like you were saying earlier, everything we do is individual, but our way of relating to somebody is individual. And the kind of relationships I'm going to have with my partner is not going to
be something that I've seen before. It's something I'm actually working to evolve over time. And so I think it's that perspective, like I'm not trying to hit some perfection mark. I'm actually just trying to be good enough, which is what we work on when we work on perfectionism is the good enough, the good enough mother, the good enough partner, which really is cringy. Oftentimes do people experience perfection? They want to be perfect.
But that's not what we're aiming for when we're dealing with our imposter syndrome. I want to be my best. Like, I want to be my best. Is that also, aka good enough? Is that good enough? As long as you feel like you've attained it, right? In the past. Like, if you feel like you've never attained your best...
then this or you attain it so rarely then that might be a level that's a little bit too out of reach right but if you're experiencing it regularly yeah then I think it is it can be the good enough I love that that giving yourself the freedom to say good enough is good enough yes in everything that feels good yeah I like that I often hear this conversation more amongst women
Is this something that affects women more than men, would you say? No. While it was initially studied with women in the 1970s, it's where the concept originated in the late 1970s, it was looked at largely, actually only with women for about the first 10 years of the research. And then in the 80s and the 90s, they begin to look at men and they see that there are no differences. There are no statistical differences between men and women who experience it. They don't experience it at larger scales.
We don't experience it in larger numbers. Why? Why did it, why was it just studied for women? I think it was two women psychologists who were kind, who were actually, were seeing predominantly women in a college setting and just assumed because they were seeing largely women that it was occurring largely in women. But we do find too that there are some differences in the ways that women experience it and men experience it, although they don't experience it in different numbers. Okay.
So for women, we see them be counterphobic. So they actually will face the thing that they fear. And so as a result of that, they'll get triggered to experience the imposter syndrome more often, where men tend to avoid the triggers and tend to aim toward mastery. They tend to kind of only involve themselves in things that make them feel comfortable. So as a result, they actually don't push themselves and often are underperforming.
And so it looks a little different and it can look a little different in men and women. And so I think that's why oftentimes we hear that women experience it more often because they're triggered more often, but they're not having it in higher numbers or having it in greater magnitude.
That's so interesting that you're saying that women are triggered more often than men. Yes. That is a huge statement. Because they face it, right? Like you're going to do the line. You're going to do the fashion line, even though you got triggered. That's counterphobia. Yeah, I've got to beat this. I can do this. Where a man might turn it down. Wow. Okay. Okay.
For 25 years, Brightview Senior Living Associates have been committed to creating a vibrant culture and delivering exceptional services, making Brightview a great place to work and live. If you're looking for a rewarding opportunity to serve your local community and grow, we want you to join our team. Brightview Senior Living is growing and actively seeking vibrant associates to join our community teams, including directors, healthcare, activities, hospitality, and dining. Apply today at careers.brightviewseniorliving.com. Equal employment opportunities.
Text BVJOBS to 97211 to apply. Hey guys, Doug Gottlieb here to tell you the national sales event is on at your Toyota dealer. Making the now perfect time to get a great deal on a dependable new truck like a rugged half-ton Tundra.
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Okay. So we talked about that it doesn't just show up overnight, although it can. Like maybe somebody that never even knew about imposter syndrome will wake up tomorrow and be like, oh my gosh, I think I'm having imposter syndrome. Yeah. So I think they identify it, but we often see it as almost like people have had it for a very long time. They just didn't have the words for it or they didn't know what it actually was. Because oftentimes when people say my boss triggered me to have imposter syndrome, it's
Or my boss gave me imposter syndrome. Likely that's not the case. Likely triggering you and that you're experiencing it. But you've likely been experiencing this for a while. That is good to know. Because I sort of felt like I was born with it. You know, when you struggled with it forever. Yeah. Yeah.
Whether it was imposter labeled as imposter syndrome then, or if it was just self-doubt or lack of confidence, lack of self-esteem, all of those things are sort of kind of dancing the same dance.
anxiety, they're all correlated to, so they have a relationship with imposter syndrome. So oftentimes when people ask, is self-doubt imposter syndrome? No, it is that you're experiencing what we call a constellation of things. You're experiencing the self-doubt, the experience of being a fraud, the overestimating others, underestimating yourselves, the perfectionism, the cycle of imposter. So you're experiencing a bunch of things besides the self-doubt that ring true for you. Wow.
Wow. That sounds like it could be debilitating.
It can be. All those things, that constellation you just talked about. Yes. Yeah. And especially if you're in the self-sabotage cycle, you know, and you're kind of, it can be particularly debilitating because you often feel like there are not a lot of successes because you're sabotaging yourself a lot. But even in the overwork cycle, you're often experiencing burnout. So that can be also debilitating. I think when you talked, we were talking about being vulnerable and just talking about it and how that is such a huge sort of,
opening to mastering it. I feel like
That is the case with everything. Because for me, I know that there have been so many years where I've been trapped in here with all of these thoughts, whether they were good thoughts or bad thoughts. I honestly, there have been times when I've thought I've told my partner something, but I haven't told them anything at all. It was just happening inside my head. I thought I told them. So just like talking about it freely and openly and discussing it.
it really does sort of like demystify it, destigmatize it and sort of make it a little bit more digestible, a little bit more easier to handle. Yeah. And cope with. Because the shame in the dark corners is dangerous. Like when a psychologist and we're trained and they often tell us shame is the most dangerous of emotions because it is the hardest one to kind of like, you know, then deal with and get to the other side.
And so in revealing it, it helps reduce the shame around it, the stigmatization around it, where we can be a community that can say, I struggle with imposter syndrome. And like you say, I'm going to choose something different. There are behaviors you can choose that don't have to get you caught in the cycle consistently. Talk to me about that. Talk to me about what can we do to beat imposter syndrome? What are the steps? Tell me one by one. I need to know. Sure.
So the first one we talked about, which was like understanding where it came from. So I do think it can be the hardest step in the sense of you've got to go look in the dark corners of your early childhood experiences, which can be painful. But I think so important to figure out how did this come to be the way it is. And so that is a piece of it. We talk about the family dynamics that are common, codependence, narcissism, particular roles. There are all kinds of things that kind of get us started in this. Is that what they call the work? Yes, it is. You got to do the work. Yeah, you got to do the work.
It is that hard work, but it is, it is so worth it because, you know, as a result of doing the work, you can instead see the thing coming as opposed to be blindsided by the thing. And so I think it is so important because you get to see what are your vulnerabilities? What are your triggers? What are your, what are the things that you're commonly caught with because of that early experience, you know? So. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So when you start talking about it, you know what it is. So like you said, it doesn't blindside you, you see it coming.
You see it coming. That's good. Yeah. That's the first step. Okay. That's the first. And the second step is then sort of understanding your trigger. So understanding the kinds of things that, you know, get you triggered. So you were talking earlier about a new experience. So new things get us triggered. It also things like, you know, making a mistake can get us triggered things like, you know, um,
feeling rusty at something, something you haven't done in a while can get you triggered. Things that are complex and have a lot of steps where you can go wrong can get you triggered. So getting to understand your particular triggers, public speaking can be a trigger. So what are the things that make you feel vulnerable and kind of fraudulent or that you're going to be exposed? So understanding them so you can have a lay of the land of your triggers.
And then sort of talking about your narrative. What are the things that you're telling yourself? So when you were talking about, you know, saying these things to yourself, like, why would they choose me? And I don't know anything about fashion or paraphrasing. You know, these are the narratives, the beginnings of the narratives that we're telling ourselves is that I'm unqualified to do this.
well, what about the reasons why they asked you? Those didn't even come up. What are the reasons why they asked you? To really dig into them and to really understand the narrative that we're telling ourselves that's sort of underlying this idea that I am a fraud, I don't belong, this isn't good enough. So really working on that narrative piece, how we talk about our
ourselves to ourselves and how we talk about ourselves to others and making sure that those narratives are accurate, that they're, that they are reality based, that they can be tested. And then also too, that they're positive in some way about our skills, accomplishments, the things that we've done. That's so cool because Dr. Raymond also taught me this thing where you, where you ask yourself when you have like a negative thought, um,
You ask yourself, is it true? And then you're like, well, kind of. It feels true to me right now. And then you ask yourself, is it absolutely true? Like without a shadow of a doubt. And then you kind of have to be honest and say, well, no, not really. I'm kind of just sort of assuming that or just regressing to that familiar behavior because I know how to handle that.
Yes. And that is another step, which is dealing with the automatic negative thoughts, which is asking, is it true? Where is the data? Like, where can I actually prove that I'm stupid or incapable or not good enough? Where's that data? And then also, too, are there other people who believe that data? Like, can I go around and ask other people, do they think I shouldn't do this because I'm just not capable? And where's that data? And if there's different data, how do we...
Take that data in. If you talk to someone and you ask them, should I do this line? And then they say to you, of course you should. Like, you'd be amazing. And you go blow them off. You're not trying to actually hear that data. Oh, yeah. That's what happens. You listen to all the negative comments. Yes. And you blow them up. Yeah. You can have like a hundred great things said about you. And then that one person that says something negative, you like latch onto that. Yes.
Yes. Because you're looking for confirmatory bias. You're looking for someone to confirm the negative narrative. And you really have to think about data. Did 99% of the people say, yes, you should do this? And then the 1%, that's in the minority. And then you need to push that aside because that's not necessarily what you're hearing from most people. So really challenging the automatic negative thoughts. We also talk about categorizing the negative thoughts.
because it helps to externalize them and not see them as a part of you, but to see them as external. So like, you know, being able to classify like, you know, everyone thinks I shouldn't do this, right? It's a mind reading ant or thinking about what's going to happen. It's going to be a disaster. It's going to fail, a catastrophizing ant. So being able to label the ants because it helps you then see them as external to you and not a part of you. And then coming up with a positive,
accurate narrative. Like I was asked to do this line because I'm competent and capable. They thought I would be a great spokesperson, you know, that you kind of find the actual truth in the narrative about why you're being asked to do this. And it may not be that expertise person that you thought, you know, it might be some other expertise that you need to claim. So challenging the ants is one of them. Also, oftentimes when we have imposter syndrome, we're really bad at self-care. And
And so really making sure that our self-care is embedded in our lives. And so making sure that we're taking care of, like, we talk about, you know, the three buckets of self-care. So like your physical self-care, how you take care of your body and release tension within your body. And so we often say the issues are in the tissues. So like, how do you then, you know, kind of release the negative stuff that's going on in your body, the tension, right?
the reflective self-care, like how are you actually thinking about how you stay present and focused on the moment and the issues that are happening in the moment, things like mindfulness, gratitude exercises, spirituality, things like that. And then sort of the processing kind of bucket, like where are you processing this information through a therapist, a coach, a mentor, friends, how are you processing the information of problem solving some of the information that's coming towards you?
in your self-care. And clearly you can do other things, but I think it's really, those are our fundamental buckets. And then thinking about how self-care is embedded to take care of you and your process and not just something that happens when you have time.
Yes. It's so important. Oh, my God. I love these. These are very easy, doable tips for people. Yeah. And all research-based, all research-backed, you know, that can help you reduce your imposter syndrome in a day-to-day way, in a very easy day-to-day way. And even just talking about it and asking yourself, okay,
oof, I'm feeling these negative thoughts. I'm recognizing them. What is that? Where is it coming from? Could that be imposter syndrome? Yeah.
How do I handle that differently than if I were to just latch onto it and believe it? Yeah. And sink into the spiral. Like what might I do differently? We talk about breaking the cycle. Is there a way to kind of challenge the thought? Is there a way instead of self-sabotaging to like lean into this in a healthy way, instead of overworking, can we do this, you know, in a thoughtful, planful, mindful way that doesn't drain us? Yeah. Yeah.
How do we take in positive feedback? I like to self-soothe sometimes. And I try to teach this to my daughter too, like to think about little Jenny, like my little girl inside of me. You think about little Lisa and like just comfort her and say, hey, it's okay. Everything is going to be okay. You don't need to get so worked up about it.
Yeah. Like what does she need? How can you comfort her? What can you give to her that she's not getting? But yes, I love, we talk about the inner child stuff all the time. We love the inner child stuff. Oh my God. I could talk about the inner child for days. When I'm feeling imposter syndrome-y, should I tell like my family? Should I tell my partner? Should I let people in on the dark places? Yes. Yeah.
Yeah, because that's also part of the steps is to kind of really be able to tell other people and to have them be able to comfort you and also potentially provide some level of support. And I think oftentimes we have to kind of sometimes tell them the kind of support we may need or they have to be cultured to that because sometimes the idea of like get over it
really hurts us because it's not that easy to get over. It's, it takes work, you know, that, you know, while we talk about these steps and they feel really easy, actually executing them is effort and work and takes a lot of consistent, you know, work to kind of regroup these things. So I do think, you know, helping to educate our partners, our children, our family about how
the kinds of responses that are actually helpful for us and the ones that are not can be very helpful in the way that they respond to us. Okay. That is good information. I do want to ask you imposter syndrome. You know how like, this is a terrible analogy, but like Brussels sprouts had their moment. Everybody wanted to eat the Brussels sprouts. Um,
And now, thank God, menopause is having its day in the sun. Thank God everyone's talking about it. Do you hear people saying, oh, imposter syndrome is just a buzz topic? And of course, everybody's just going to jump on the bandwagon and talk about it because they want to seem relevant.
Yes, I hear it all the time. And it's really aggravating, frankly, because I think like, you know, we've been working on this research as social scientists for like 40 years, like, and I think it's become really popularized by people like Michelle Obama and other people who started talking about it, about their experience of it that I think they people thought it was like a
buzz term, but it's not a buzz term. It's actually really well-researched like phenomenon. The American Psychological Association just came out with an edited volume this year on it. It's not a, it's not a fly by night concept. And I hope it doesn't get seen as such because I do feel like finally the buzz piece has been helpful for finally we can talk about it. And finally we can provide people like accurate interventions and solutions to deal with it.
And but I do think like I worry that it eventually will be considered buzzy and it will go away, which will make me deeply saddened by the people who don't get the help that they need to kind of be on the other side of it.
Well, we will keep it alive. We will keep it buzzing. Okay. I like to do this with everybody that comes on the show. Can you please tell us what was your last I choose me moment? When I got my nails done, I always get my nails done. I have, I have like,
What is that? They're owls. That is so neat. I love a good manicure more than anything. So carving out the time for yourself. For my manicure, yes. Because it's multiple hours. It's not an hour long.
That is a good one because people just kind of don't think of the little things like that. Yeah. And it's, and for me, it's deeper than that. Like I'm a nail biter. So like for me to do like my nails is really about kind of finding other ways to soothe my anxiety besides nail biting and finding some way to kind of do something healthy and positive for myself. So.
I know I have a daughter who's a nail biter and she loves to get her nails done also. And it also just sort of lifts her self-esteem. Yeah. To be able to look at her nails and think, look how pretty they look instead of like. How bloody it's been bad. Dark days with the nail biting. Yeah.
Oh, I love that. Get your nails done. Perfect. I choose me moment. Oh, thank you so much, Dr. Lisa, for joining us today. And I'm so glad that you were able to share all of your knowledge with everybody. And it is a real thing.
And I think that if we're being honest, probably all of us have felt it at some point. And it's just nice to talk about it openly, to take away the shame and embarrassment around it and just give it some air, you know? Yes. So thank you. You're so welcome. That conversation was so personal to me. And I want to thank Dr. Lisa for joining me and listening to me.
I've been internally dealing with this and it feels really good to let this imposter syndrome secret out. As we continue to choose ourselves each week, I want to challenge you to something new. I talked about soothing my inner child with Dr. Lisa, and I want you to do that now. I want you to think of your younger self
visualize that little young version of you. And I want you to give little you a hug and tell them that you love them and that everything is going to be okay. Sometimes we are holding on subconsciously to fear or trauma that we experienced as children. So we need to be gentle and love that version of ourselves.
Thanks for listening to I Choose Me. You can check out all the social links in our show notes and make sure to follow, rate, and review the podcast and use the hashtag I Choose Me. I'll be right here next week. I hope you choose to come back too.
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