The Rise and Fall of Ruby Franke | Bonus: What We Didn’t Know | 9
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This is a Law and Crime Network presentation. This podcast explores themes of child abuse and trauma. Please listen with care. ♪

He says everything's fine with him. He says what's happened to him is his fault. Jody, I need you to step out. I have my turn. That's great. Step out of the house. Have a seat right there. Do you have a search warrant? Have a seat right there. Do you have a search warrant? Have a seat right there. That was the first time I've ever been there. And it blew my mind. I'm sure you have walked in there and gone, how does a therapist live like this? This has been the strangest.

and the most miraculous intervention. Jody is a master manipulator and had so much control over everybody that was in that house at that point that she just needs to stay in prison until she's no longer a threat to the community. Yeah, and it was just like the little string that started pulling apart the fabric. I'm like, oh my gosh, what have I done?

I'm Paula Barros, and this is The Rise and Fall of Ruby Frankie, presented by Law & Crime. When our first episode dropped February 19th, 2024, just a day before Ruby Frankie and Jodi Hildebrandt were sentenced, we'd produced this series based on public record up until that point.

Then, Friday, March 22nd, 2024, as we just wrapped what we believed to be our series finale, the Washington County Attorney's Office in Utah released police reports, body cam footage, investigative photos, and interviews, as well as portions of Ruby Frankie and Jodi Hildebrand's recorded phone calls made from the Washington County Correctional Facility.

The comprehensive drop of documentation provides new context, revelations, and even more shocking details in this case. We'd be remiss not to include them in this podcast. This bonus episode will take you through the treasure trove of new evidence recently made public record. But first, we'd like to acknowledge the painstaking work the Washington County Attorney's Office put into compiling this mountain of material.

And if you're wondering why this documentation wasn't released sooner, we had District Attorney Eric Clark explain. Our practice is anybody can appeal a conviction or a sentence for 30 days.

So in this case, that was super unlikely because the plea deal that we negotiated was a stipulated prison sentence to consecutive terms. Right. Like they had signed on the dotted line and agreed to everything. But there was still a chance, no matter how small that, you know, Ruby or Jody could have said, hey, my attorney lied to me and told me I was only going to do six months. And I didn't understand what was going on and filed an appeal on these charges.

And we have an ethical obligation. If there's any chance we're going to be going to trial, we cannot be putting out information that can be tainting a potential jury.

And so because, I mean, and obviously all this information would happen, right? Like nobody who's seen any of the pictures or read the journal would be like, oh yeah, I can have an open mind. And I don't have a preconceived notion of whether these guys are guilty of a crime or not. It's important that we're super careful so that if we end up in a trial, we don't have complications in seating a jury because our priority first and foremost is getting a conviction. And so releasing the documents earlier could have tainted that.

We also didn't want to piecemeal roll them out and kind of drag this out because there is an impact to the family. And we want to be aware of the minor victims. So we tried to have everything ready to just release at like day 31 so that we can get to our week of news cycles and hopefully things can kind of settle in and those kids can get back to a state of normal, as normal as can be. Now that that's cleared up, let's dive in.

By now, we've all heard snippets of the unforgettable 911 call made by Jody's neighbor, whom Russell Franke escaped to on that brutally hot August morning. But it turns out, before Russell made contact with the man who put in the call, he had attempted to find help at a closer home first. That moment was caught on a home security camera too. Russell is shockingly thin, wearing an oversized blue long-sleeve shirt, striped boxer shorts and socks.

He rings the doorbell, pacing around as he waits for an answer. But nobody comes to the door. On his next attempt, another house over, he's met with better luck. In another snippet of video caught on a Ring camera, you see the first moment Russell and the heroic man make contact.

Yes? Hi, how is this...wondering if you could do two favors? Well, what are they? Uh, taking me to the nearest police station. Flashlights, just one slide. What's going on, son? Have a seat there. It's personal business. Have a seat. What's your name? **** **** How'd you get here? I...

Russell takes a seat on the shaded patio. The older gentleman sits down beside him. Then, a woman comes out to bring Russell food. As Russell begins to eat, the man makes the now infamous 911 call. No, I'm sitting outside with him on the front patio. And he asked us to call the police. So he's very afraid. Russell, what's your last name?

Do you know where your mom and dad are? Well, actually, I don't know where my mom is, but I do know where my dad is. No, he doesn't seem to. He says he knows where his mom is. He doesn't know where his dad is. That's correct. Is his mom home? He just says he doesn't live around here. Okay. Is your mom around here? Have you seen her lately? He doesn't know where she is right now.

Russell, was there any other kids up at Jody's house? Two sisters. Two sisters. Anybody else? No. How old are your sisters, Russell?

10 and 14, and they're still at this house. Are they tied up as well? What's the deal with your sisters? Are they being held? Do they have wounds on them as well? Okay. He says everything's fine with them. He says what's happened to him is his fault. He's hungry, and he's hearing his stalking feet. Uh-huh.

So he escaped. Russell, is Jody up there right now? Yeah. Okay. Jody Hildebrand is up there right now. Okay. So she may come looking for him here soon, but she's not going to, obviously. We need the cops here as soon as possible. I'm just asking where he is now. Yeah, she's a bad lady. We didn't realize how bad.

They were correct. Jodi was there, and officers were just arriving at her door. In the newly released body cam footage, she's seen opening the front door of her compound in a gray pullover and blue shorts, holding her phone up to her face. Jodi, why don't you step out? I have my attorney. That's great. Step out of the house. No, I'm not going to step out of the house. Step out of the house. Step out of the house. Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. We're just going to step out of the house. Wait a minute, how do you come to my house? Right there.

Look, they're going into my house. Have a seat right there. Do you have a search warrant? Have a seat right there. Do you have a search warrant? Have a seat right there. I'll explain everything after. Have a seat right there. We're here on exigent circumstances. And I'll explain it after this. After my sergeant and the officer are done clearing the house. Is there anybody else in the house? Yes. Two kids? There's a little girl. Just one? She's right over here. Okay. How old is she? She'll be 10 next week. Okay.

Jodi is a deer in headlights. She's visibly fighting back tears on the phone with her attorney, while a police officer with a body cam stands facing her. Adam, I know you have a flight to catch, so... Well, so they're in your home because you lied to them about... Yeah, I've got a police officer standing right here. Okay. Have they found her yet? Yeah. Yeah, they have. They think there's somebody else in the house. There's not.

Are there three children that are supposed to be in this house? There's one that's here. One that's here? There's not three children that are supposed to be here in the zone? So are they still looking for others? Yeah. I know they found her. I don't know if they left her there. I don't know. After their initial confrontation with Jodi outside her front door, the police search of the home has been well underway. Jodi sits on the couch as they continue their search of the palatial estate.

They find Eve seated on the floor in a stark, empty room that appears to be a closet. Her head is shaved, and she's undeniably malnourished. The sergeant approaches her carefully. Hey, you okay? Is this just you in here? I'm Sergeant Tobler. What's your name? I just have one. Where's your sister at? You okay? You been okay? You don't want to talk to me? Yeah, that's okay. Can you come with me, though?

We got Jodi out here. You know Jodi? She's outside with us. You take your time, but I'm in no hurry. I'm a police officer. Did you know that? I don't mean to hurt you at all. You're okay. Do you need help? Eve doesn't respond. And another first responder, a female EMT, attempts to reach her. You don't want to talk? Okay. There's nothing at all you want to talk about at all? It's okay to talk to me.

We know that it took nearly four hours to cajole Eve to cooperate. In another video without audio, you see officers providing her pizza, which she eats in the same spot on the floor they found her in. After feeding her and earning her trust, Eve agrees to be examined by EMTs. Body cam footage shows the kids being examined in the ambulance, too. How did you get the ropes on you?

Who did them? You're not in trouble with me. We're just trying to figure out what's going on. Our main focus right now is you, okay? Who put the ropes on you? What's to help you what? The camera is angled at Russell as the EMT questions him about his injuries. His visibly emaciated legs stretched out across a gurney, lacerations on his ankles and wrists are blurred out.

Outside the ambulance, police described the physical condition of both Russell and Eve. Underneath the tape, as soon as they took it off, you can, even outside, you can smell, you can smell the flesh. And then transport, or put them in the ambulance. I went in there. They started cutting more off of it. You can see the wounds on the back of his ankles, around the front of his ankles, and then on his wrists as well.

Yeah, he said he was tied on the ground with a rope. That's where the wounds came from. Yeah, with a rope on all four of his extremities. And that's where the wounds came from. They put cayenne pepper mixed with honey, he said, on the wounds. And then covered that with the plastic saran wrap and then the duct tape all over the wounds.

These horrifying wounds are evident in the photographs that were released, too. They show deep lacerations on both Russell's ankles and wrists, almost as if they were just shy of cutting to the bone. It is nothing short of shocking and sickening what these children were subjected to. Even the first responders are seen holding back tears as Eve and Russell are finally taken to the hospital. Then, Ruby finally arrives on the scene.

Place your hand on your back for me. Perfect.

You don't have anything on you that I should know about, correct? Any weapons, anything that we're gonna find? Before we put you in a police vehicle, we need to search your person to make sure you don't have anything on you. Is there anything you have on you? Okay, I'm gonna search you before we put you in his car. That's just protocol, so I'm just gonna have you step right over here and then just widen your waist, widen your stance, yeah, perfect. Are you wearing your bra? Okay, I'm just gonna go like this through and make sure you don't have anything.

Once Ruby is arrested, both she and Jodi are taken to the Santa Clara Ivins police station where Kevin Franke is already being questioned. In the footage, Kevin is clearly distressed and exasperated. He's just driven 250 miles in hopes of rescuing his children from a situation he was completely oblivious to. So are they all living with you or? No, I haven't seen them for over a year. Any of them? No.

- None of them. - For a year? - Over a year. I've been in a separation. - From who? - From my wife and family. - What's your wife's name? - Ruby. - Ruby? When was the last time you saw Ruby? - The last time I saw her was the 18th of this month. We met to, she requested

When's the last time you physically saw Russell or Eve? 24th of 2022.

July 25th, Joey. July 25th. So it's my understanding that at home here in Canton, Ivins, have you been to that home? No. You've not been to that home? No, I don't know. I don't know anything that's been going on. Like, this is good, man. Like, I would love to be able to help you out with this. And, like, I've seen a lot of people in the tunnel because I'm unaware of your involvement.

in what's really going on so for you to say that you're unaware of the status of your kids kind of makes i know that sounds kind of crummy to you but it sounds kind of good to me like who lives in that home with your is it ex-wife is he currently a separated wife like who lives in that home with your children to be honest i don't know i know that she's there with um

Four of the children, and my two older children, have moved out. They're not at your home in Springville? And I'm not trying to trip you up. I can see you're hesitant to talk to me. I understand that. Well, where I live? No, I haven't seen them for over a year. Okay. That's tough. I can only imagine how that feels when they're not at kids. And if you haven't seen them for that long, that would tear a little piece of my heart out. Do they have age to drive? Does she drive? I don't know. Okay.

Like I said, I know nothing is going on in their lives or anything going on. How did you find out that you needed to come here to 55 North Main Street? I received a message that I needed to come pick up my kids from the police department in Highlands. And who was that message from? I prefer not to say right now.

We now know it was Ruby who had put in the call to Kevin to pick up the children and can presume at the time of this interview, Kevin was feeling nervous at the prospect of implicating his then estranged wife in any way. The police then ask him about Jodi. Do you know a female named Jodi? She is a therapist and life coach. Do you respect her?

Do I respect her? I think she's a very honest, truthful person. It's clear from his initial interview, Kevin has no idea just how dire circumstances had grown under Jody's roof. He actually didn't even know some of his children were living with Jody. He then goes on to explain how Jody came into their lives, his separation from Ruby, and the extent of his interactions with his family during the year-long separation.

Kevin clarifies his only connection with Ruby had been making deposits in their shared bank account to contribute to the care and keeping of their children. Then, 20 minutes into questioning, officers finally revealed to Kevin what they found at Jody's home in Ivins that day. So I don't recall the exact time, but sometime before 11 o'clock today, we received a phone call from 911 on our dispatch saying,

That a 12 to 13 year old boy was knocking on doors in the neighborhood asking for food and water. That he was severely emaciated. What is emaciated? Skinny, scrawny, malnutritioned, not enough food, not enough water to sustain life.

So he had duct tape on his extremities, on his hands, on his ankles, and those were covering rope burns that were used to tie him down. Take a second and think about what I just said. That's the condition of your son. Given that information, your son was taken to the hospital.

A warrant has been applied and granted by the Department of Child and Family Services to remove both Russell and Eve from your wife's care. So no one right now is going to have access to these two children based on their physical condition. Do you understand that? I understand. Do you, would you condone that behavior? Would I condone that behavior? Um.

That's my job. My job is to find out your knowledge of the treatment of these precious children. No. Again, I don't know the details or I don't know what the f*** comes with it. As you described that, it sounds... Horrible. Horrible. Disgusting. No human being should be treated like that. That's my thoughts. But again, we might be different on that. We're going to stay here for a second, okay? We're going to go out and talk...

I'm not saying you're still not free to go. Are you under arrest? Absolutely not. We just have lots of questions. Lots. Okay? Your children are under medical care right now?

And what does that mean? It means that you don't have access to them. My understanding is that they are... What is that? They're in the custody of DCFS. And they will be for the next 72... There's a medical hold on them right now. So for at least the next 72 hours, based on our understanding. At least the next 72 hours. They're in observation. They're being watched. DCFS is going to provide you that information and they can better answer your questions along those lines. That's handled through them.

Okay. So we'll be back. So I want you to think about some things, though. I don't know. Listen to me. They leave Kevin alone for a beat. He's seen crying and is noticeably blindsided by the situation he's in. When the officers return, Kevin has a question for them. What's going to happen to my wife? I love my wife. I don't know. I'm being honest with you. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know if I'll start this against my wife. Possibly. Possibly.

I think given the circumstances, that's highly appropriate. But again, I don't know your wife. I was hoping to gain some insight from you, but I don't necessarily know that that's something you wanted to... I trust her. Or you wanted to travel down with me, so... It's all without legal representation. Yeah, all right. I get it. But I love my wife. I trust my wife. And so, I mean, this feels like getting run over by a steam truck while you're sharing with me today.

Dad, you guys can tell you're caught off guard. I thought I was just coming here to pick up my kids. And for what, I don't know what or why, but I just want my kids. I just want my kids. I just want my family. Kevin is released without charges, just as they bring Ruby in for her turn under the microscope. We're just here to talk to you about a few things involving your kids. So first, do you live down here or do you live up north?

Ruby stares blankly at the detectives. Do you want to talk to me about where you live or how many kids you have? So we just spoke with your husband and he said you guys have six kids. Are those all together? Are those all your kids? I can wait all day. So it's up to you if you want to talk to us about what's going on. Would you feel more comfortable talking to one of us? Maybe one of us. Thanks for talking to me.

Or if you feel more comfortable talking to him, I can step up. I'll wait until I have a lawyer. Okay. So do you want to talk to us at all? Do you want to answer that? You don't want to talk to us about anything? So, yeah, this is just your chance to tell us. We're just trying to get your side of the story. So it's your chance to do that. But it's up to you. We're just going to talk. And I'm not asking any criminal questions if you don't want to talk to us.

However, in Jodi's interrogation that day, she's at no loss for words. I watched you make detective movies. How did?

So I trust my turning. He said, don't say anything. And I said, I have nothing to hide. And he's like, I know that. Just let me be there with you when we talk. So you guys seem nice people. I'm not trying to be difficult. This is really, if you knew all the pieces, I think you'd have a lot of empathy for what's going on. I'd like to just tell you, but

I don't know who you are. I don't know if you're going to flip my words, but I don't know. And that's the good thing about cameras. Everything, it's pretty much double recorded audio, video, and it's for the safety of you, for you and for us, because we don't want to flip your words. And this will all be pretty much right there to support you. So we're not going to use anything against you. Why would my attorney be so insistent then? He's an honest, good man. There's a church. I trust him. Why would he say that to me then? I don't know. I don't know your attorney.

Be honest. Well, I'm just saying he's a good honest man. And I'm an honest person as well. So we get along great. And he just said, do not say anything. I'm a psychologist. I've watched people flip things all the time. So I get it. I sit on your side. I get it. Most people didn't do that, but they do. In another video, we see the moment Jodi and Ruby are taken to Purgatory Correctional Facility in Hurricane, Utah.

There's something surreal about the way the two women look at this moment, as though they both genuinely believe they would never be caught. All right, dear, I'm going to have you stand up, all right? Thank you. Go ahead and face this officer. Go ahead and put your hand on top of your head. And rest your finger, please. Thank you. Just put your hand on top of your head. You're good. Look to your left. Thank you. We'll give you a card with the phone number. You go out the front door to my vehicle out there. Hop on in.

I have a crash on the right side of my shoulder. Okay. Alright, step up please. Thank you. Go and face that officer. Put your hands on top of your head please. Analyze your fingers. Thank you. Alright, put it on top of your head. Look to your left. Thank you. I just don't want to hit you in the head. I just don't want to cut. Go down. Hey, do you want to let me know what your criminal charge is for? So you're under arrest?

It's going to be two counts, second-degree felony of child abuse and neglect, okay? Ruby is clearly in shock, and the arresting officer voices concern. Do you understand that or no? Are you okay? I'm wondering if there's like a medical clearance that needs to, like, do you need medical attention before you go to the jail? No. Okay. The videos released from the day of Jodi and Ruby's arrest

finally completes the puzzle of events that took place on August 30th, 2023 across the state of Utah. The Washington County Attorney's Office released photos too, over a hundred of them. The majority of them reveal the inside of Jodi's home where Eve and Russell had been detained. The house is a far cry from homely, filled with giant, mostly empty rooms, staircases in every direction, pantries full of food,

a large safe, and a creepy concrete basement. The pictures also unveil the horrible abuse inflicted on Russell and Eve. Multiple photos show rope in drawers and cupboards throughout the house, as well as stockpiles of duct tape, gauze, and Tupperware containers filled with the cayenne pepper and honey concoction that we've heard was spread over the wounds.

But despite photographic evidence and calls from jail that October, Jodi maintains her innocence and weaponizes religion to justify her actions. It feels like I was being set up to end up here. I know that sounds bizarro. I mean, I should be here. I haven't done anything wrong.

And I don't know if I'm going to be like some kind of example, but when I get out of here, I have a story to tell. And I am going to try to do everything I can to protect the children because that's what's happening is that kids are being just horribly abused. I'm married to a 10-year-old.

Nobody wants the truth. Nobody wants the truth. Nobody wants the truth because these kids... You know, I told Doug, I woke up, the spirit told me, it's all the devil. I mean, you've seen him. I mean, I've known you, what, for five years? You've watched him come at me, come at me, come at me, come at me. And you're exactly right because he knows I know what he's doing. And he uses these kids.

And he uses all of us as the adults, the parents that don't hold the kids accountable. So now it's abusive to make a kid sleep on the floor. It's abusive. Or it's abusive to... You know, it's ridiculous. It's ridiculous. You can't even raise your kids anymore. He doesn't seem really animated. He seems like, you know, the pictures...

The pictures are going to destroy you. And I'm like, we didn't do that. We didn't do that. Those pictures we did not do. He did that to himself. Yes. Did we put that on him and then he rubbed around and cut himself? Yes. But we didn't do that. And Ruby was making calls too.

The first one documented is to Kevin the day after she was arrested. I wanted to think of some ways that I could bring in money or make some money if she didn't ever come back. So that's when I asked if you would, because I'm not alone if I found a house. Maybe I could Airbnb it or rent it out. I've been playing with numbers in my head and I think I could...

make something, but I don't want to be dumb. I want to be very conservative. So I pulled the money and I have it in a bag. With you? Do the police have it? Well, I don't know what the police took. I don't know what the police have. But the bag is what Jody's have? They can't just take people's money. I mean, that's not right. Well, they're not going to take the money, but when they have a search warrant,

The bag of money the two are discussing contained $85,000 in cash found during the search of Jodi's home. Ruby had recently withdrawn it from her kids' savings accounts. While it's unclear what the money was for exactly...

In Ruby's journal entries, which we'll get to soon, she alludes to a loose plan she and Jodi were making to essentially abscond to Arizona with Russell and Eve. But in this moment on the phone with Kevin, he's made to believe that the money was for a real estate investment that could bring in cash flow for basic family expenses in the event that the two would choose to prolong their separation.

During the same phone call while talking with Ruby, Kevin receives a text from an old friend who's just gotten wind of Ruby's charges. Are we in the news? It sounds like at least you're in the news. I don't know about me. I don't know what he's talking about, but...

I'm wondering if they went to Sherry to ask her questions. I don't know. These bookings are public. I know they are. And a couple months ago, Business Insider was reaching out to me, and I ignored their email. But I'm going dark. I'm not at BYU. I'm not at BYU anymore, so I don't know how they're going to find me. Yeah.

Maybe it was a boasting. This is a witch hunt. The devil's been after me for years. He's mad as heck. Have you shared that with the detectives? I have not said a word until I have an attorney. Okay. Well, you know that this phone call is being reported. You have one minute remaining for this call. Yes, that will come out. That will come out. Okay. Okay.

When we were driven to the jail, the detective was putting us in the car and Jody said, I trust you. They're going to be in the hospital for three days. So weird. It's just not necessary.

I'm trying to exaggerate this. Well, they didn't show me any pictures or anything of the way they described it. It was very serious. What are they charging you with? Two charges of second-degree felony for child abuse. Two charges of second-degree felony for child abuse.

Yes. Okay. Wow. That's very serious. Adults have a really hard time understanding that children can be full of evil and what that takes to fight it. You've seen what it takes to fight evil. It's not the person you're fighting. And it can look like something it's not. And you've been there. You know that.

And so I don't know any adults who are going to see the truth. So I'm calm about this and I just pray that you'll hang in there. You have one minute remaining for this call. The two speak again the next day. This time, like Jodi.

Ruby invokes her faith. The most upsetting thing is that I am completely misunderstood. That is the most horrible feeling. Like my own family misunderstands me. They misinterpret me. And poor Jodi, they misinterpret her. They misunderstand her. She puts her neck out on the line for people and then they get mad at her. I mean, it is just horrendous. It's horrendous.

And you know what? Every Joseph Smith, every wonderful man of God has had to be misunderstood.

That's right. And so I'm going to get out of this. Who knows? Maybe in 10 days I'll get out of this if I'm, you know, if the truth prevails right now or, you know, who knows, like 20 years. I don't know. I don't know how long that I'm going to step out. I'm going to say I went through everything I have seen.

God's children suffer. All the people here, my jail cell mates, have been beautiful women, but they've been hurt. You know, they've been deceived into drugs. And my heart just has so much compassion for them. And I have compassion for the cons. I have compassion for myself.

And then to be told that I'm suicidal, I'm like, no, no, that's not true. Anyway, if you need to let... That was either Sherry or one of your siblings. Well, they're all in cahoots. One means all of them, but yes, you're right. In your hearing, I don't know if you've considered this. I don't know if it would be helpful, but you could have the house...

And if all the kids go to the house, you've got room there and I will gladly stay away and let you guys be. So, I don't know if that's helpful. I'm just giving it to you if it is. Thank you. And in the discussions with my attorney, that...

That's the only way that we're going to retain custody of the children. That's fine. He is 35 years in this, and he said even if you are acquitted and are released, they will place legal restrictions on your access to the under-18 children. I figured such...

I figured such. God told me. God told me when I was driving before I called you. I didn't have any information. I didn't know anything. And the Spirit said, your children are going to be removed. And I just, I cried out loud. I'm like, no, I'm not done. I'm not ready. And God told me I'm done. And I just, oh. So. Yeah.

Satan has taken everything away from me that I love. And I'm a good woman. I don't do naughty things. I don't do naughty things. I'm a really good girl. Ruby, I'm going to do everything that I can to keep truth in our family. And...

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Audible. There's more to imagine when you listen. Go to audible.com slash imagine and discover all the year's best waiting for you. In a call made in December, Ruby's attitude towards Jodi sees a surprising and sudden shift. I could not come out of this without his grace, without his mercy, without his help. This has been the strangest thing.

and the most miraculous intervention. It put everybody where they needed to be. It separated me from Jodi, so I'm not hearing her. And I think just being gone and not hearing her has cleared a lot of things up for me. By the end of 2023, and Ruby's last call from jail after her guilty plea, it seems her interpretation of Jodi had changed entirely.

Did you see that Jodi pled guilty today? I did see that, yes. Is that a relief for you? Yeah, it's a big relief. It's a big relief. There would have been positive the other way too had she not pled guilty. There's enough evidence that she could have been convicted for life, but that would have been messy. It would have been really messy.

And the kids would have... So, do you and her get the same outcome no matter what now or is there a chance that it would be different? That's a really good question. That's one that I've asked Lamar. No, we can still have different outcomes. So, Ellie asked a little bit about this. I wrote it out in a text to her, but...

So, the next thing that will happen is I will fill out and she will fill out a probation and there's another P paperwork.

And basically, you go through your history and you tell them your history, which there's no history on me. There's nothing, no criminal history, no mental health history, nothing. And I'm also hiring a professional to do a mental health evaluation just to say she's good, like there's no mental health problems at all. And then that will go to my probationary board. Jodi...

She can lie on her paperwork, and she probably will. I don't think she's going to give them her history. But I think in the interview, it's going to be apparent that she's mentally ill.

And so that will affect how long someone... Because they're looking, how repentant are you? How much responsibility are you taking? How are you aware that what you've done is wrong? And she's not... The only reason she pledged is because she didn't want to do life. She knew I would testify. Yeah.

The other thing is on my plea deal, when I come up for probation, the prosecuting attorney can, well, often if they think that you're a danger to society, will talk to the probationary board and or write them a letter saying, I think she needs to stay where she is.

When was the last time you talked to her? Was it that day? It was when we were arrested. Yeah. I left early in the morning to go to a dentist appointment with Julie. We left at like 3 in the morning.

in the morning and she calls me sometime in the morning and so I went back down but when I got to the house I mean it looked like it looked like the movies there was a red fire truck there was a black van with tinted windows there were two ambulances there were 20 cop cars I mean it was it was did you just sit in your car? no

No, I pulled up and found a spot to park. She lives on the cul-de-sac. I parked in the cul-de-sac and I walked up and the driveway was just full of cops and I just walked up to the cops and they said, "Are you the mother?" And I nodded my head and so they took me and put me in the casita and I sat there for a couple hours.

So I didn't see Jodi at all when I went to the house to turn myself in. I didn't see her. Okay. And I went, they took me to the courthouse and the detective was like, I've got all night. We can talk all night. And I didn't say anything. I just said I want an attorney. So I could hear Kevin in the hallway talking and then he left. And when they took me out of the room, they took me outside and

and cuffed me and said, again, they cuffed me again and then put me, they told me you're under arrest for, and then they told me two of the charges and then they had me get in the patrol car. And that's when I saw Jodi. I thought Jodi was also in the patrol car. And she had surgery on her shoulder. She couldn't put her hands behind her back. So then they pulled her out and

up the way they arrested her so she could drive with her hands in front of her. And then we had about a 40-minute, 45-minute drive to the jail, and that was the last time I spoke to her. We were in the back. We didn't say a whole lot. I mean, we talked all the time, but I don't remember really saying much.

saying a whole lot we sang a hum like hummed a couple hymns and she she was she was still justifying the whole time she's like don't worry don't worry we'll have our day in court and then and then when we were booked in um

They put us in separate cells and we've been in separate cells ever since. How gullible was I? Oh my gosh, how much power I gave this person and I didn't see it. But when I realized, so she had, her attorney's name is Doug Terry and mine's Lamar. And Lamar, you know, maybe a month into it, he's maybe not even that long, he's like,

Jodi denies everything. She denies having anything to do with this. And I was shocked. I was like, what? And I'm still telling Lamar, like, you know, all of the justifications and all of the, you know, I'm talking like a criminal. I sound like a mad person. He was so patient with me. He was so patient with me. He would just look at me and, like, kind of dumbfounded, like,

like I said two plus two is seven and I really believed it and he would just stare at me I'm like what am I saying that's so off and um but that's because I really believed it but

But then when I heard that Jodi was not talking like that, she was denying the whole thing, it told me she knew all along and she's hiding it. And then I was like, crap, what am I saying? And that's when things kind of started turning. I was like, she's not been honest. I didn't know she wasn't honest. I didn't know she was lying. And it's like, what else has she been lying about? Where else are you?

Have I been deceived? Yeah. And it was just like the little string that started pulling apart the fabric. I'm like, oh my gosh, what have I done? Ruby wasn't the only one to change her tune with regard to Jodi.

When Kevin was brought in for questioning for his second and final time, his recollection of Jody is far from the honest and truthful person he claimed to hold in high esteem in the first interview on August 30th. In this meeting, he's with his attorney, Randy Kester. They begin the interview discussing a piece of evidence that Kevin was hopeful they would find.

A collection of Jodi's writings called The Pen Papers. So like I talked to Mr. Kester about, I just want this to be totally ran by you. I won't ask you any questions that are incriminating. We're not looking at you as a suspect or anything like that. We just are more curious of the dynamic and Jodi coming into your relationship, your life. So if you kind of just want to walk us through that on how she came into your lives and

and then where things started to change. Yeah, I can do that. I'll ask first, have you found the pen papers? The pen papers. So we found quite a bit of different journals. We believe they're on the computer and the rest of them are unsealed. Like they're trying to mail them off. But we do not have a direct copy of it, no. Because my understanding was...

We had purchased as a Christmas present for Jodi in 2021, a leather, like a leather folder that, you know, three inches thick or whatever. And it had engraved on the leather on the outside, the pen papers and Ruby wrote detailed notes of everything. All interactions with Jodi and Pam Botcher from August, 2021 until, I don't know,

You're saying it's like a satchel-looking leather, or is it more like a binder? No, it's like, I don't even know what to call it. It's flat? Well, yeah. It's just like a shorter, because we do have Ruby's journal, which is from those dates that you mentioned. These things are going to be so... She wouldn't write... The stuff she wrote in the pen and paper, she would not write in her journal.

The stuff she wrote in the pen papers was not intended to be read by anybody until God would decree them to be written as scripture for the whole world to read. Okay. I believe that's what we have. Okay.

Because you're saying the pen would be different, correct? Well, it was just in a thing called the pen papers. And that's how Ruby referred to those papers. So it described all of the visions and trances and everything that Jodi and Ruby went into. How thick would you say it was? It was like three inches thick or so. And there were hundreds of pages of written...

documents that we have. And that was given to Jodi in 2022 when she left and returned to her home in January. So... This is similar. Yeah. Like, it would look like that. Okay. That's not the journal that we have, so... No, I think you're talking... It looks like a satchel or... It's something Jodi would not want found. Yeah. But she wouldn't want to destroy it. Because we...

We didn't find that in the home. We did find an empty one. I don't remember saying anything. There's an empty thing like that. There was a full thing, but it was... If the empty one says the pen papers on the outside of it, then they emptied it. We'll go back through our photos and see if that's... Because everything in the home was photographed. Kevin is clearly concerned with finding these papers that he hopes could provide context for Jodi's motivating religious extremism.

As the interview progresses, he's given the opportunity to paint the bigger picture of the Frankies' history with Jodi and connections. Ruby had a very close friend named Paige Hanna, who lives in Mapleton, who was a massive fan of connections and Jodi Hildebrand. In fact, the Hannas are on the cover of their book. You've probably seen them.

And so Ruby started to speak with Jodi towards the end of 2018, early 2019, with the intention of having her be the therapist to Jodi. Jodi always had a larger interest in communicating with the parents more than with the actual patient, which I always found curious.

But her theory was, if you want to help your child, you have to help yourself first, and then you'll know how to help the child. So she spoke with Ruby frequently, and the frequency of their communications ramped up. And then the first conversation that Jodi had with Chad was in June of 2019, while we were on a trip to the East Coast.

all of her visits with Chet were virtual through Zoom. But she would talk with Ruby on the phone or through Zoom quite frequently. So Jody met with... Things got really... It got strange around the fall of 2020. The Hannahs were trying to convince and bring Ruby into... Thank you. Thanks.

into this organization called Connections and that particularly were focused on things like lust versus love and healthy marriages, happier marriages, happier relationships.

She invited me to go to a, it was like a conference or something held at Thanksgiving Point in Lehi. There were like 100 people there and that was in the fall of 2019, maybe late summer 2019, late summer, late summer 2019. And my impression at that time was this is absolute craziness. This is a bunch of man-hating,

Women that are just looking for excuses to tear down their husbands. I mean, that's what it felt like to me when I was in there. He suddenly isn't shying away from how he really felt about Jodi's operation. But at the time, he knew it was important to Ruby and wanted to support her. Kevin stayed in the men's group and still met with Jodi every week. He says he even noticed some positive changes in his home life.

But then, things took a turn for the worse. Then it got weird because our marriage felt like it was getting better and stronger. So this was now, you know, summer and fall of 2020. And in addition to that, there was the whole YouTube cancel thing. I don't know how much you guys are interested or aware of that, but in May of 2020, some

videos that Ruby released on that dealt with Chad just blew up in her face and it was all over the news and hundreds of thousands of TikTokers and all this stuff were just piling on and basically burned down like our YouTube channel and

Overnight, the income went, we lost 90% of the income overnight. And that was hard. - Was this like the, which episode was this? Is this the one where they talk about the big bag? - Mm-hmm. - Okay, yeah. Yeah, and then they started going back and trying to dig and find, and then they'd find this little nugget. It's like, oh look, you've went to school without a lunch one day, or stuff like that.

But it was the beanbag video that really set people off. So then they went back from there. So at that time, Ruby was really distraught and she was looking for support. She was looking for someone who would understand her, who would validate her. And she found that in Jodi. All the stuff she did with Chad was because of Jodi.

Kevin illuminates what many have suspected. In Jodi, Ruby found a figure that both condoned and motivated her questionable parenting style. He goes on to tell the detectives that throughout this difficult time for the family's finances, they continued to participate in connections through March 2021. And that's when things got a little weird.

After attending and speaking at a conference in St. George, Jodi invited her Closest Connections followers to dinner. And that's where Jodi really opened up to the women in a private conversation that she believed she was being tormented and haunted by shadow figures every night.

Out of concern for Jody, the Hannas, the family that introduced the Frankies to connections, stepped into action. I don't know exactly what happened, but the Hannas do. All I know is at some point within a couple days of that, in that month of March, the Hannas drove down from Mapleton and picked Jody up and brought her back to their home in Mapleton. And she lived for six weeks in that home in Mapleton.

And this is where, like, I don't know what happened, but I do know that there's two different sides of stories. They tried to introduce her to a new cult lady that the Hannas were getting into. So they wanted to merge their cults into one, apparently. And, um... They referred to it as a cult at the time? Oh, no. No one in a cult says, I'm in a cult. Right.

From your perspective, it looks like two coal leaders merging together. From where I stand now? Absolutely. According to Jodi, she was held against her will for six weeks and was kidnapped, and she escaped and got out. According to the Hannas, after six weeks of Jodi stabbing herself with forks and knives, cutting herself and wanting to commit suicide and trying to seduce the husband of the family, they kicked her out.

The situation Kevin describes really flips the perception of Jodi on its head. Her entire brand was couched in a confidence that she had life all figured out, that through abiding by her principles, one could be free of pain and suffering. And no longer equipped with the support of the Hannahs, Jodi turns to Ruby.

Something about what Kevin tells investigators next feels like a clear glimpse into Jodi's process of manipulation. Somewhere around mid-April, Jodi was back in her home in Ivins and she was a hot mess. And she reached out to Ruby for help. And Ruby was always jealous of the Hannes that they had a better relationship with Jodi than she did.

Ruby, and this is like, goes back to her childhood. She wanted to be the best friend. She wanted to be the most liked. She wanted to be the one that everybody knew. And so it hurt her that she felt like she was being excluded from what was going on at the Hannah's house. And she'd say, why are so many secrets? And the Hannah's would say, it's not secret, it's sacred. And when the time's right, you can know too, you know.

According to Kevin, this is about the time Ruby was solidified as Jodi's right-hand woman, and it played into all of her insecurities. From there, Kevin and Ruby paid a visit to Jodi in her time of need. So we went down to Jodi's house in May of 2021. That was the first time I had ever been there.

And it blew my mind as I'm sure you have walked in there and gone, how does a therapist live like this? Like, it doesn't really make sense to me. But we were there and she opened up and talked about, you know, her struggles and what was going on. And I got to say, like, I'm a smart guy. I'm an engineer.

I've designed and helped build some really big stuff. I'm a college professor. I can't explain some of the stuff that happened while we were there. Like crashes in the basement while we were talking upstairs. And plates like in the kitchen just flying off by themselves like full speed smashing on the wall and falling through the floor by themselves.

The scene Kevin's describing requires a degree of suspension of disbelief, but he's sticking to his story.

I didn't want a thing to do with it. I tried to get the bishop involved and say, "Hey, go to the priesthood and the church and all that stuff. Just go to your support network." But Ruby continued to be like, "No, we can help. She doesn't want that. Could you imagine what would happen to her reputation if this got out? Let's help her."

We went down like a couple more times between May and August, but it reached the point where in August, her bishop at the time, he was going over there every night, and he'd be there for like four hours. But even the bishop grew exhausted by the undertaking, and things grew even stranger, if you can believe it. And finally he got to the point where he's like, I can't do this anymore. There needs to be some sort of resolution on it.

It was at that point that they said, "Why don't you take her up to your house?" And I was like, "Oh, hell no. I don't want this in my house." But I was beaten over the head with it. Like, that's really insensitive. You know, she's done so much to help our family and you're being selfish and she has needs and come on, like, it won't be for long. And so I relented and I was like, "Okay."

Actually, you know, this could kind of be fun. Let's just make it fun and we'll like, she needs a vacation. So we'll just go take drives up the canyon and stuff like that. And it turned into just a crazy house.

The moment she showed up in my house, just the weirdest crap started happening. Lights turning on and off, sounds of people walking in walls, and sounds like footprints going up walls and across the ceiling, and stuff floating around. And it was just, it was weird, and I hated it. And I became the resident exorcist.

While what you're hearing may sound unbelievable, Kevin and Ruby took the supernatural situation in earnest. In their own home, they continued to provide Jodi with round-the-clock care. It started, like, every four hours at night, and then it moved every two hours at night, and then it moved every hour at night. And then at some point, Ruby said, you know what, I'm just going to start sleeping in there. And if I need you, I'll come down and get you. And I'm like...

I'm like, that's kind of weird, but okay. And that was that. They started sleeping in the same bed. Ruby was Jodi's full-blown bed nurse. And in September, she brought in backup. Then she started having, like, trances and stuff. I would say probably September, where she believed that she was going to heaven and seeing God and Jesus and talking with Him. And...

She would get together with Pam Botcher. Ruby, Pam and Jody would get together and do these interventions. That's what they called them. And so they'd just go up and lock themselves in a room for four or five hours. And then they'd come out and they'd all just be on cloud nine. And Ruby would share with me like she had this amazing vision.

And I wrote it and recorded it all down. We have a work to do from God, and you're part of it, and the bishop's part of it, and we're all part of bringing all this stuff to the world. For Kevin, this endeavor was growing tiresome. And it continued like that until I wanted to move on with life. I would call it dragging my heels. But in Ruby's mind, their work was just getting started.

That October, Ruby drops a bomb. Ruby said, I want a separation from you. And it was an in-home separation. And so it was hard. Basically, there were all these rules now placed on me, like,

I could leave when I wanted, but I couldn't come back until Ruby gave me permission. I couldn't come into the kitchen to eat until Ruby gave me permission. And the upstairs where Jody roamed was completely off limits. I couldn't go upstairs anymore in my own house. And there would be, Ruby would dictate all of the terms of how our interactions would be, when we would talk. And that was hard.

After the holidays, Jodi went home and Ruby ended the in-home separation. But Ruby, Pam, and Jodi were still on a mission. But by that time, like, Ruby, Pam, and Jodi were completely determined to do this work that they felt God had for them. And I thought it was crazy. Like, I thought it was just batshit crazy.

Like, Ruby, you have a reputation. You have a multimillion dollar business. You have a brand. And you are just giving it away. She wanted to legally, like, work with Jody's attorney to basically give Jody eight passengers and become an employee of Connections. So basically the contract was Ruby gives Jody everything and Ruby gets nothing in return.

Our manager, our YouTube manager at the time was like, "Red flags, red flags. I don't know how to tell you she's scamming you." Ruby fired him. And I was like, "I believe our manager. I think he's right." And Ruby started threatening me with another separation and just like, "This isn't about money. This is about doing God's work."

While he may not have agreed with Ruby's business decisions, Kevin obliged. So we continued in that dynamic for the next six or seven months until she went on a trip with Jodi and Pam down to Arizona.

And I think they, like, when I read her journal, that she went into Mexico or something and bought drugs or something, like prescription drugs for the emergency kids. Ruby returned from the trip with some news for Kevin. Before she even brought the bags into the house, she pulled me in and said, I want to talk with you. And that's when she asked me to leave. And that was July 20, 2022.

And as we know, Kevin honored Ruby's request. He moved out of their family home that summer, but continued to attend Jodi's groups. I was still in the men's groups, but the dynamic changed.

Instead of being like one of the top people that helped run groups and help support all of a sudden, I was, I felt like I got knocked to the bottom and Jody was just piling on me every week in the men's groups and the other men, the other men just do whatever Jody does. If Jody piles on somebody, they all pile on. If Jody praises somebody, they all praise. And so it really felt like a,

It felt like a pack of dogs. And Jodi was the alpha. Whoever she, you know, sicked the dogs on, they would go. Whoever she praised, the dogs would just lick them up and down. And that's how these groups went. And so once I was in separation, every week was just hell, psychological hell. And Jodi was running it. Everything was on Zoom.

I knew that the only way I would ever get back into my house was I had to get Jody's approval. If I didn't get Jody's approval, I would never get Ruby's approval.

but it felt like an impossible task because no matter what I did, no matter how much I tried to track better, be truthful and not be selfish every week, it was like, you're being manipulative, you're being selfish, you're lying, you're hiding something, you're still hiding stuff. And

And I really started to question my sanity.

Until this audio was released, we'd only heard about Kevin's experience through the voices of others. To hear it now in his own words is validating and corroborates everything else we've learned along the way. And so that continued for an entire year, but it became more and more and more and more and more isolating until...

Jody had an approved list of men that I could make phone calls to, and it was basically three men. But two of those, well, no, all three of those three men were like, we don't want to do phone calls with you anymore because you're being manipulative. And I'm like, well, who told you that? Well, Jody did. So I was completely cut off. Kevin was officially out of the connections fold.

But around that same time, in a confusing turn of events, is when Ruby began making contact with him again. But she had an angle. I didn't understand why, but like Ruby wanted to meet in a parking lot and wanted me to sign over titles of documents like...

the two of our cars wanted me to sign them over to her name. - Two of you? - But I was like, okay, you know, I'm just not, I'm in total compliance mode at this point. Just like, I'm a good husband, you see, you can trust me. And so whatever she asked, like sign over the cars to me, no question, which is okay.

And then another thing, she was like, I might want to do an investment, but I will need your signature. Do you trust me enough that I could get your signature if I wanted to pursue my own investment? Yeah, sure. Whatever you say. How big of an investment was she talking about? Did she sell you? She never did. And I never signed anything. She never brought anything to me. But when I returned to the house, everything was packed up.

And a neighbor came over and said she asked for the HOA rules and mentioned to him that she wanted to rent the house out, which I was like, are you kidding me? And he apparently she wanted to sell the house, but couldn't because my name was on the mortgage. And I think I think that's what she was talking about. Will you sign something if I just put it in front of you?

And you know what? I probably would have. Like, that's how messed up I was. I'm glad you didn't. Me too. That would have been disastrous. But I can't describe to you what torture and hell it was to live an entire, it was more than a month, really, in complete isolation, believing that I was like evil people.

I mean, manipulative and lying and selfish and that I had abandoned my family and that I was more interested in my selfishness than my family. And I think moving forward, you going through that is going to be extremely helpful. I felt that way because a lot of those are the same words that were used with them and you're going to understand how they felt.

The interview comes to a close with a few more questions from the detectives. Keep in mind, they've just learned a lot of new information. You said that she was having like these visions. Did we ever, Privy and Ruck, understand or be told what those visions were? A couple of them. What were the two that they...

She would tell you about. So like one of them, she would, was walking along the beach with Jesus and Jesus challenged her to go walk on the water. And it was a whole lesson on walking on the water. Another, she would walk with Jesus

Heavenly Father and Heavenly Mother. And she learned about, she had a pet lion in heaven named Charles. I don't know why I never forgot that name. But it was like this massive lion and she got to ride the lion. Learned that, you know, all about who she was and this pet lion and all. There was another one where there was a lot of satanic ones where, I

When she would go into possession mode, she would talk in like different voices. It was really creepy.

But the voices would say, she's ours. We're not letting go. She is Satan's bride. She's mine. I'm going to marry her. So if she was faking it, she believed that she was trying to, or Satan wanted her as her bride. So then you said, just clarifying, so the last time you saw the kids was when you separated that in July, I think it was.

of 2022. Do you have any questions for us? No, I'm just really interested in the pen papers. Like, for my own curiosity, I want to know what was going on in all of those little interventions and

I'll look back through the photos because like I said, we documented everything in the home, whether we took it or if we didn't. And then I'll reach out to Mr. Kester and let you know. To have a couple of observations when you're done. Yeah, go for it. So I always thought it was interesting, now that you mentioned that she was riding a lion, Kevin told me that when they were having these group meetings, she would never show up. She would show up on the WebEx, but in place of her person, which...

would just be this X for the connection. So it's like this Wizard of Oz thing going on. She never showed her face. She always covered herself. Like even in the hottest of summer, she would wear these hoodies. She would smell so bad. She would never bathe. But she was trying to hide her arms and stuff because apparently Ruby told me they were just like mutilated.

So the other thing that I think it's important for them to know is during that whole time when you were out, communication with Ruby maybe three or four times, but each time, or at least on some of the occasions you spoke to her, she's telling you that everything's blissful, we're doing well, you know, everything's so much better without you. Oh, that would be communicated to me by Jody every week and the men's groups too. And it was just like,

you're abandoning your family, you're, and it always hurts so bad because it's like, I want to be with my family so bad. What do you mean I'm abandoning? If you wanted to be with your family, you would change. You would stop being selfish. You would, but you keep being selfish. So you want it. And it was just felt like, well, how do I stop wanting it then? It's like, you must change. Well, how do I change? Well, you got to want it. Well, how do I stop wanting it?

What? You know, so how do I want it? You got to change. Is this like perpetual cycle? Yeah. There's no, what is it? I tried to find my way into that cycle. And it felt like, have you ever had a dream where there's like a problem you're trying to solve, but you can't solve it and how frustrating you feel? That's what my life felt like.

And as I'm looking back and I'm realizing there was no solution. It was, there was, you either had Jodi's approval or you didn't. I wasn't doing anything different than the other man in the group, but they got her approval. So they were praised and they were repenting and they were doing everything right. I, on the other hand, was manipulative and selfish and enabling and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And

She became like the arbiter of truth, the arbiter of forgiveness, God's own mouthpiece. And it was just messed up. Well, I'm glad that you're seeing clearly, you know, and I came out of it. Yeah. So one last discussion. So in the home, when the warrant was issued, there was a bag that,

with 85 000 cash in it and i understand her lawyer ruby's lawyer has all that i'm not which home are we talking about ivan's is the ivan's home we we don't know we the money was left

So here's kind of the issue. That money, she cleaned out their bank accounts. The kids' savings accounts. Yeah, and yours too, your joint account. Yeah. That's where that money came from. So I don't know if...

you can have or if I need to have a discussion with the county attorney, Kevin would kind of like his kid's money back. Yeah. So it would be civilly, so I would go address that. Talk to Lamar. Lamar, yeah. See if those funds are being useful. I don't think he wants to give them up. And I wouldn't either if I were him. Yeah. I think he's using it for attorney fees. Yeah. I don't know if the county attorney is going to be able to separate that out while some judges already separated it out. Even the county attorney is going to look at it and go, it's a...

It's civil. It's both your guys' money in some sense. But if you did... You have to divide that up to where it goes. You can't do that. You can't make her any more. If you did go to civil, I think that would be your fastest route to... It's just dirty, but she did. Yeah. She stole money. She stole money from my 18-year-old son.

And it's wrong. - Well, the other thing that you didn't, I don't know, I mean, there's a lot there, but I think they need to know that while Jodi was living in your home, she was also purportedly giving therapy to Chad and Chad was paying her. - Every week. - And he's like, what, 15, 16? - At that time, we were paying her. It wasn't until Chad moved out

And part of his therapy was he needed to pay for his own therapy. So at age 17, he was paying her $900 a month to get brainwashed. He died at 17? He did. What was he doing for work? He was a lifeguard, basically. Lifeguard supervisor at two different rent centers. So it was like the majority of his check was going to Jody. He was paying her more than he was paying rent, wasn't he? Three times as much.

- That's crazy. - I mean, obviously, seeing what Alice, what she has, she's making, there's a lot of money going around. And there's a lot of money, I don't know if we can, 'cause I'm not sure if we know where that money came from or where it went. In fact, it doesn't seem like she's had income within the past little bit, so. - Did her book sales, were her book sales? - I can't imagine. I can't imagine they were.

Anyway, I need to get my kids. Thank you so much for your time. I want to cooperate, though, on anything related to Jody. We know you've been introduced to a ton of new material, but there's more. When Kevin last spoke to detectives, they alluded to a journal they found in Jody's home.

It belonged to Ruby and is perhaps one of the biggest pieces of evidence indicating the religious extremism at the heart of this case. The journal is presented as individually scanned pages in the document release. If you look them up, you'll see pages upon pages have been redacted.

District Attorney Eric Clark explained the reasoning behind the redactions. This is an instance where we have minor victims who need to grow up in the world that we're releasing this information to. And so we're balancing three things. We have the Utah Open Records law, right, which says, hey, be transparent.

We have the public needs to know, like when people, people shouldn't be able to cut a plea deal in order to hide from the public what they did, right? Like you have to be able to put out enough that there's a clear narrative of the crimes that were committed and the evidence that we would have used to get a conviction. But then we also have minor victims and we have to be aware and cognizant of them.

So the redactions are us taking that third thing into account. And there were things in the journal that had nothing to do with the abuse that was being inflicted. So we didn't redact anything because we're like, oh, well, this is too graphic of a description of abuse, right? Everything that was describing the abuse that was speaking to guilt was left in. But it's a journal. And if there are things that are discussing...

the minors or the family, things that were unrelated to the criminal acts. We did our best, not just in the journal, but in everything that we were redacting. We're trying to strike that balance. We want to release things that are speaking to criminal activity, the mindset of people in what they were doing in this instance, in this awful abuse, while still recognizing that not everything that people do and say is directly tied to their criminal acts.

He also mentioned in his career, he'd never seen such glaring evidence of criminal activity so spelled out. The fact that Ruby documented over the latter half of the summer what was going on every day and the conversations that were happening as the abuse is ongoing, we've never had. I can't think of a case like that, right?

In the journal, Eve and Russell are referred to as E and R. Here's what the journal, dated July 23rd, 2023 to August 27th, 2023, describes. These are Ruby's own words. July 10th, 2023. E and R have been in so much deviant behavior. They are both furious their selfish, sinful lifestyle is being intervened upon.

R lies. I mean all the time. He is a compulsive liar. I would have never suspected the cold, dead heart R has. I told him he needs to find God. I invited him to fast and pray. He is in and out of possession. R told me he would rather have a glass of water than me as his mother. Ruby's writings indicate she believes the devil is working through her children. July 11th, 2023.

R, or should I say, his demon, stays in the shade. I push him back in the sun. He comes back. I come back with a cactus poker. When I poke his back to get in the sun, he doesn't even flinch. I poke him on the neck. He is in a trance and doesn't appear to feel anything. He shuts down and says he wants to go to jail.

He says he worships the devil and has no interest in changing. He doesn't actually know what jail means. He just wants the immediate gratification of sitting in an air-conditioned car ride to juvie. E told me she figures they had been here for eight weeks. I asked if she felt like she had made progress over the eight weeks. Yes. I told her she was delusional. Last night, her screaming and trance headbanging were evidence of no change.

July 12th, 2023. E makes rhymes about, my mom starves me and calls it fasting. I cut more off E's head. We doused her with water in the dog wash. E said she wanted to run away. Jodi told her E has no idea what is waiting for her. July 13th, 2023. These selfish, selfish children who desire only to take, lie, and attack have zero understanding of God's love for them.

They don't know Ji-Jo is selling her home, this priceless snow canyon gem, so she can purchase land where these two can work. Ji-Jo has been looking for property with Sorus Cactus, and it's feeling more imminent the need to get these kids to open land. She is willing to consider less than ideal property for them. This is a spiritual matter. I can't in good faith leave you with these two gremlins. I won't do that. These are God's children.

One hour later, we move quickly. Jodi and Julie are going on a road trip to look at property in Arizona. Ruby has some cash in the bank. If the property is right, we can move on financing immediately. We decided the escalation of the kids is not manageable here and now. R will then sit, stand on the patio, shaded. E, I will bring into the cool house and she can sit in the pantry. They will think they won.

They will think they got what they wanted. They will relax. Then, pop, we will drop them like hot potatoes out in the desert. Their new home. You are going to get exactly what you asked for. If you can engage a weak-minded soul in a physical activity of obedience, you can begin to break the bond Satan made with the weak.

Begin physically doing farm work, lifting boxes, exerting energy, exercises, jump rope, milking cows, weeding a garden, digging trenches. Begin doing sweating for good, heavy physical intensity. The problem for E&R is the hard labor all for the sake of lifting does not have meaning or do good.

We need property where a ranch can be built. The kids need a good kick from a horse and a cactus to run into. They need natural outcomes. July 14th, 2023. E woke up. I reminded her that if she whined, cried, or squinted her eyes at me or soured her face, I would be buzzing her hair.

I told her because she didn't listen the night before. She would do two sets of boxed stairs with a five-minute break. She did the first set easily and agreeably. After five minutes of rest, she began whimpering. When she got to the bottom stair, she slipped and dropped the box. I put her in the dog wash and shaved her head. Why do you keep being buddies with Satan? E. I don't want to work. Now to R. Me.

Do you like sleeping on the hard ground? I slept in a soft bed. Do you expect me to feed you? I got big over him. I will feed R. I will not feed a demon. Me. So you would rather have no food and worship the devil? R. Yes, ma'am. E. Upset to do boxes. Goes to sleep on basement floor. E is now slipping and falling on purpose on the stairs.

When she was outside today and it was hot, she acted like she was dying. So pitiful. I told her the heat in hell is much hotter and God is going to burn the wicked. There is something so incredibly twisted seeing all this meticulously detailed by the perpetrator. Again, Ruby documenting every moment of abuse seems indicative of a deeply held belief she was doing God's work and would never be caught. And there's more.

July 15th, 2023. I went to bed around 12:10 AM. E on the floor next to my bed. R on the patio outside my sliding glass window. Oh man, just writing this, I am shaking. If Pam hadn't volunteered to take Abby to American Fork for her ACT test, then I would not have been here. And my life and Jodi's and my family's would be forever different. At 2:45 AM, I woke up straight out of bed.

I couldn't see R. He was gone. He did leave an arrangement of rocks in letters and words. He wrote me a message. The message said, in pebbles, Jail. I will call when I get there. Julie and I scoured the house and yard. Jody got her flashlights. Jody and Julie took her car and I got E up and went in mine. Oh God. Oh Father. We need a miracle.

I see R walking on the left side of the road. I call Jodi. R is shocked to see me. The devil wants me in prison. My children, dead. R stands in the garage where we can see him. He has zero remorse. Zero fear. Zero expression. He is cold, calloused, and hard. Angry he isn't calling the shots.

Jodi and I agree to buy ourselves time until we have more of an environment conducive to an intervention. We need land. To de-escalate the situation. I brought R into the house. I tied a rope to my feet and him. To my waist and his. R will now sleep in a soft bed with me. R slept. The devil got a bed. Now I know that in order to keep my son, I will need to put him back under sedation.

I unhooked him from all the bells and whistles and asked him to breathe and thrive on his own. And he went into a rest and stress. Back to sedation we go. The demon is still there and I purposefully put R back into slumber. Hibernate. There is a soul-killing infection in my child and my hand is forced to not remove the infection. Agency does not allow me to rid the infection. R and E like the infection. It's so sick.

8:18 PM. Jodi sends me a text. I found the land. The devil does not want us to take R&E out of society. He did not want Jodi finding this property. Her writings continue to zero in on a preoccupation with demonic possession. Then she recounts the binding. July 16th, 2023. Last night I tied myself to R. R showers while I watch.

I shower while R is in the closet. I can see the closet door as I shower. Three sets of ten push-ups. July 23rd, 2023. All children need this experience of pulling obnoxious weeds, sweating in the sun, working while thirsty. Ruby appears to truly think this is the correct way to raise children. July 25th, 2023.

8:30 AM, Ruby takes E, R, and J to Chivwit Cemetery. Each child is given a bag to pick up broken glass and weeds. We work for about 15 minutes and a red vehicle with a woman shows up. She sits and watches for about 15 minutes, taking pictures or video. A woman did take video. It was released with the rest of the documentation.

It shows Russell in a desert cemetery, walking barefoot through broken glass and carrying a trash bag. August 1st, 2023. After an hour of E jumping in bushes, we get in the truck to find a cactus. E walked right up to the cactus and threw herself into the middle of it. It was unhuman. When asked to run to a dead tree and then come back, E replied, "I would rather jump into a cactus."

Eric Clark says this entry was what struck him the most. One of the more, the worst things is in Ruby's journal, she talks about the instance where Ruby and Jody are sitting in the truck. And we try not to use, you know, minor victims' names. I'm going to say E. So Ruby and Jody are sitting in a truck driving down a dirt road. I think it was Hell Hole Road.

While E is out in front of the truck running on this dirt road in the desert in the summer and Jodi gets out and tells her, okay, you can be done if you'll run up to the top of this hill and back.

Which is kind of like that part of the evidence is that Jodi was having them do the types of things that like collegiate athletes might be challenged to do kind of like as punishment. So it's like, okay, you're gonna push yourself, push yourself, can now go run up and down this hill. And in the journal, she's running up the hill and back and doing that. And Ruby describes it is at one point, she's talking to Jodi. And then she's either to get away from Jodi or because something is being said, she jumps into a cactus.

And then comes back to the truck and asks her mom, Ruby rolls down the window and asks her mom, you know, like, what do you want me to do? Trying to be totally submissive. And then goes and jumps in the cactus again. We have other evidence that I think that Jodi was throwing Eve into the cactus three times after they make her run in the desert in the middle of summer on a dirt road. But even if Jodi had the level of mind control to convince this nine-year-old to go jump in a cactus three times, like, that's awful.

The journal entries petered out in August, but the abuse certainly continued. August 9th, 2023. R becomes aggressive and destructive. He starts banging and hitting doors. I went in and kicked him. Knock this off. I put on a pair of boots. I went in and kicked him again. You want me to stop? August 16th, 2023. Day two of R jumping on a mini trampoline.

He needs lots of help with balance and coordination. Today, I asked him to take off one sock by balancing on the opposite foot. Lift one foot up and remove the sock while staying balanced. He fell over, hit his nose on the ground, and began bleeding. I gave him a wet rag to wipe his face and toilet paper. In a photograph taken inside Jodi's home, the mini trampoline is pictured at the foot of what one may assume was Ruby's bed.

August 21st, 2023. Poking is a strategy technique R seems to respond to. Poking, pouring cold water, towel whip. August 27th, 2023. Willing to try anything that would grab his attention, I whipped him with a belt yesterday. E2. The later dated journal entries suggest in the days before her arrest, Ruby was turning up the heat and she was showing no signs of stopping.

The abuse outline in Ruby's journals is awful, shocking, and horrific. And what's more curious is, despite documenting every instance of abuse she inflicted, at her plea and sentencing hearings, she still pointed the finger at Jodi for everything. It also raises questions about the general assumption that Jodi will serve more time.

We asked Eric Clark why, despite Ruby's own admission in her journals, Jodi still came out of this case perceived as the bigger threat to society. I think it is fair to say that the evidence shows that Ruby did that more often than Jodi. But by no stretch of the imagination do I believe that it was like, oh,

almost all the time Ruby and a little bit Jodi. You step back and look at big picture, and Jodi has made a career out of convincing people to isolate and do stupid things at her advice, right? Like to cut themselves off from family members, to leave family members, to not have contact with support groups, to ignore church leaders. Like she's made a career out of convincing people that they should only listen to her and do whatever she says without question.

Jodi is a master manipulator and had so much control over everybody that was in that house at that point that she just needs to stay in prison until she's no longer a threat to the community. And on the topic of prison time, he spoke to a realistic estimation on the time the two could potentially serve.

Before our interview, Eric told 2020 he hopes Ruby and Jodi would have no possibility of release until both Russell and Eve are over the age of 18. So if the youngest victim is 18 but is kind of a mess and having her mother or her former therapist be out in the community would be tougher on her. So my line in the 2020 interview was it should be both. They should be adults and in a place that they can handle this without being overly like harmed.

So luckily, the board can look at that. Child abuse is one of those that generally steps are made so that it doesn't happen again, right? The parents are removed from kids. They're not allowed to have visits or they're only allowed to have visits if there's someone else there. So what we're worried about is the emotional health of the kids, right?

That's why Jodi's such a, to me, a bigger threat than Ruby coming out is because she loves to go out and convince people to follow her. Ruby was doing that also to some degree. I'd be shocked if now that the general public is kind of aware of how awful what they were doing is, if anybody ever follows what they were saying again. I hope that never happens. So I would hope that they're in at least until the kids are adult and aren't going to be like,

like not be able to get out of bed for a month because they get out, you know, like in a place where they can cope with that and handle that and where they know how, like have a plan for how they're going to handle that. We have child victims of abuse that that want to keep relationships with parents. And we have some that don't. And I don't think any of us should be judging victims and how they navigate those impossible situations. But the victims should be old enough and in a in a mentally emotional place where they can make those decisions.

And if that happens, and there's no fear of them coming out and indoctrinating others to believe that like, Jody receives revelation that kids should be starved, then I think justice will have been served. So you're looking at anywhere from 10 to 20 years, right?

And if you're thinking only 10 to 20 years, he responds to that too. Some people will hear that and be mad. They'll be like, well, these guys should be in for life. And how can a prosecutor be saying it should be anything less than the maximum? And I'm not saying those aren't fair questions. I don't think that people should get significantly more prison time just because it's a high profile case. Right. Just because someone's on YouTube doesn't mean they should serve two or three or four times longer than they would have.

But I don't know that they should be doing 30 if the average time that someone, if someone had done this and they weren't a YouTuber, where he was getting 15, right? I don't know that that's necessarily just. Finally, we checked in on how the Frankie kids are doing now. All things considered, they're doing way better than can be expected. And not talking about these minors in particular, but generally speaking.

One of the cool parts about our job is that we get to see how resilient kids are. It is heartening to see, not in every circumstance, right? And everybody has individual things that they have to work through that take a lifetime. But generally speaking, kids are tough.

And when you can put kids into an environment where they're loved and cared for and they're given opportunities to discover themselves and learn and grow, so many kids can thrive. My understanding is that our state division of child and family services is doing a great job in this case in particular. But generally, you know, they work really hard to put kids in those environments where they can really

recover and bounce back and then thrive. I don't want to get into the specifics, but I am super hopeful and optimistic that the Frankie children can grow up and live happy, healthy lives.

And as the books close on the Ruby, Frankie and Jodi Hildebrandt case, Eric has an important call to action. I hope that everybody takes this as a reminder, right? That child abuse is a real thing. And it typically happens in homes with people that the kids know and are close to. And we need to be working on that as a culture and society. We should all be doing everything we can to protect kids whenever, wherever.

Thanks for listening to the rise and fall of Ruby Frankie. Wondery Plus will be bringing you more law and crime original series this year. Subscribe now to find your next true crime obsession and be the first to listen when new episodes are released. This has been a law and crime production. I'm your host, Paula Barrows. Our executive producer is Jessica Lowther. Our producer and writer is Cooper Mall. Our editor is Brad Mabee.

Our bookers are Alyssa Fisher and Diane Kay. And special thanks to Sean Panzera for designing our key art.