'House of the Dragon' Season 2, Episode 7 Reactions | Talk the Thrones
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Hello and welcome to Talk the Thrones. We are here to break down the red sewing. Episode 7 of the second season of House of the Dragon. I'm Chris Ryan. I am joined by Ringer senior staff writer Joanna Robinson and Aegon's occupational therapist playing her flu game. It's Val!

I think I might be Agon in this situation. I think you might be. Wailing and moaning. Who is Laris? Oh, boy. Great question. Guys, we are coming to our viewers. We are virtual this week. The novel coronavirus struck down the house of our... The house of the watch. Still strong. Don't know what that means, you know? Like, we're just...

We're just out here. We're enjoying public events, but not you guys. I'm really sorry that you are under the weather. But thank you so much for doing the show. I'm sure all of our viewers and listeners appreciate your commitment to George R.R. Martin. Thank you to the whole team for setting us up with cameras at home and everything that's going into...

making it so that we can do this, just not on our super cool set that we've got to do it all season. Yes. And, you know, like Oscar Tully said, hope to begin well and go on from there. You know, we'll see. We're really going to try. We're really going to try.

So a little bit of a different format since we're not in person this week. We're just going to go through the episode that you just watched scene by scene. So hopefully that is enjoyable for everybody. I think it's a fun exercise for us. Usually we have these sort of big picture conversations. We have my recap. But this time around, we thought given the amount of dragons we saw, everything that happened and in the circumstances in which we're recording, we were just going to go back through the episode, the red sewing scene by scene. My guy, David Hancock, is going to be doing a little bit of a recap.

is back behind the computer on Final Draft, dialing up the script for this one. I was very happy to see his name in the credits. Jo, why don't we start with you? Obviously, what would be the biggest headline from this episode? I think from the start, where we see Adam on the beach with Seasmoke, to the end, where we see Ulf

you know, flying like a maniac over King's Landing. This is that like getting a scent that Gwaine Hightower was talking about early in the season about Kristen Cole. But here we go. We've got three new dragon riders. And it's this idea that we brought up last week a bit. We were talking about Adam Seasmoke of like, what does that do? The Targaryen legacy. Jace is really, this is his favorite new topic. What are we doing? The Targaryen legacy. If, if,

Ulf the White can ride a dragon over King's Landing, you know? Right, right. Mal, were you also kind of feeling that, like, all the questions that these dragons asked, not literally, but, like, their presence asked? I was. I was also feeling the questions that the dragons literally asked. I felt that Verbathor was speaking directly to me, as I knew I would when he, the Brod's Fury, arrived at last. Yeah, the sowing of the seeds. This is...

One of my most anticipated events from Fire and Blood rendered on the screen at last, separating the Atom and Seasmoke claiming so that we got that last week. And that allowed for the idea, right? The light bulb that would then create yet another fracture. We've been tracking these fractures and rifts inside of the teams. Is this what we want to do? Do we want to cast this wide net? Do we want to make it team bastard? I thought it was like,

a smart structure for this backstretch of the season. And it didn't ultimately diminish the theatrical scale and scope of what we got in this episode with Verbathor and Silverwing, which I thought was awesome. I really can't wait to talk about it. Okay, let's get into the first scene here. Obviously, it's a big one because last episode ended...

I guess with a little bit of a cliffhanger, although that cliffhanger was mended by the scenes from next week, of whether or not it was in fact Adam who was going to be on Sea Smoke. We find out that it is. Rhaenyra goes to meet him on the beach. And I think initially she's got a lot of

a hesitation about like who is this guy what are his intentions uh does he does he intend to serve me or is he now just like a lucky dragon rider independent free agent joe what did you make of their scene together i thought emma particularly was really good in this scene

Yeah, the tension there, the way that the dragons are talking to each other or talking at the various humans there, the framing of it, we're on an actual beach somewhere. Like I thought it looked incredible. A dragon in full daylight on a setting that looks super like incredibly natural. I just thought it was really amazing. I do. I think Emma's tension is,

And then when Rhaenyra has that flip right at the end and says, you've done something I feared impossible and I am glad of it. And there's like this warmth in her, in that character. I just, I thought that was extraordinary. I thought Clinton Liberty is doing such a great job with Adam, like so background all season and then just like has like,

turn himself into a little social media star, and I love that for him. And then, like, you know, I'm just, like, really invested in Adam's story right now. I thought it was fascinating that he doesn't out Corlys. He had every opportunity to, and he doesn't. And that is really interesting to me, because of the two of them, Alan and Adam, he seems to have the most resentment towards Corlys. So what has been sort of...

you know, beat into him by either his mom or Corlys himself or whatever, that he's like so scared even now. Even as he's about to-- He's taken to Dragonstone, he gets a really nice new fit by the end of the episode, and even so, he's keeping his parentage a secret. Like, that's a really fascinating aspect to me. Mal, I was really struck with, by the end of this episode, we are zigging and zagging a little bit around here, but I wanted to ask you, you know,

Did you see a consistent trait between Adam, Hugh, and Ulf? Because I was trying to figure one out. What is it that the dragons basically are recognizing in these guys? And is it they're sometimes self-aggrandizing in the case of Ulf? But is it consistently across the three of them, they all want to be part of something bigger than they are?

Well, I think that one of the passages we've cited and quoted the most is that, like, you know, the Caprice of Dragons, who can know the mind of such a beast. And so...

I'd say that the blanket context and understanding we have is that there is something inexplicable and particular, and you can call it blood or magic or blood magic or any number of other things. Is Seasmoke, we talked about this a little bit last week, sensing that Adam, his new rider, has the same father, Corlys, as his prior rider, Laenor. Is he responding to the fact that Adam is a character, since we met him at the beginning of the season in the second episode, he's like...

Talking to Alan about how Alan isn't seizing opportunity, right? Another opportunity to distinguish yourself, right? If I had such a chance, I would leap at it. We heard them say similar things last episode, right? You so belittle your great opportunity. Maybe he is responding to that boldness. Maybe Vermithor is responding to the boldness of Hugh Chastain.

calling out to him and saying, come on. I mean, Ulf is like boasting all his life. And then in the moment of coming to account, he's like, my leg though. The injury never really healed. Otherwise, I'd be happy to be there. And when he gets knocked over the edge down to the dragon mind, he's just like scurries his way into stomping on a clutch of eggs.

You know, so I think it's like, it's impossible to say, and that's part of what's interesting about it. That's part of the mystery, you know, from Rhaenyra to Corlys, um,

Jace, Massaria, characters across the entire episode are really interrogating the question of how in terms of the blood. Like, Rhaenyra's asking Adam, do you have Targaryen blood anywhere in your family? And I was also struck by what Joe noted. Like, it was interesting to me that he didn't say, Corlys is my father. That wouldn't answer the Targaryen part. But the fact that he's just like, we're not the sort of family that keeps annals, you know? And then...

Corliss going to Alan later and saying, this is like, as far as we can understand it, the closest he's ever come to acknowledging directly to him, I am your father. He's like, I didn't really know much about your mother's backstory. Any chance there's some

Dragon Lord blood there? Yeah. You know? So they're on this same fact-finding mission. But the other thing about Adam that I think was really striking here, and this is more of a link to Rhaenyra than to the other two writers, but it comes to mind when you ask that question, Chris, is that his response when Rhaenyra was like, what's going on here? What do you want? How did this happen? He said, if the gods call me to greater things, who am I to refuse them? And this...

that evolution that you're citing in Rhaenyra across this scene and that question we had of how would Rhaenyra respond, we move quickly, and I want to talk about this as we hit other Rhaenyra scenes later where Rhaenyra will actually voice this, we move quickly from what the fuck into acceptance into my mission is ordained by the gods. Ordained, ordained. And that is a dangerous place to find a character. So I'm so glad you brought that up. I loved it. I had...

screenshots of Rhaenyra's face when she finally recognizes Adam not as a threat but as an ally or as a subject at the end of this first beach scene. And she has like this kind of beatific like maybe things are gonna be alright after all. Mm-hmm.

And then the last shot is Rhaenyra with ash smudged on her face, looking like she's ready to kill people. Finally. Now, I'm not advocating for that, but this transformation that she goes through, the sacrifice of...

dozens of small folk who she's brought in recruited and it's just essentially like you guys are cannon fodder and if one of you rises to the top that's great for me otherwise i don't really care where there's no hoses here for you you know we're not there's no there's no fire extinguisher there's no mercy you guys can either become legends or die and yeah yeah her face at the end of this episode is definitely like she's different than she is in the beginning of the episode

And it's similar to the face we saw her close out season one with. That was the like, Rhaenyra's about to fuck some shit up face. And then they're like, in seven episodes, like we got some stuff to do and then we'll get there. But I think I love what Mallory, what you both are underlining this idea of like,

Rhaenyra needs justification for what she's doing, right? For the blood that's on her hands. And she has searched for it in prophecy. She has searched for it in advice from other people. What should I do? Give me counsel. What should I do? And now she's got it in this nebulous idea that the gods are approving of her mission. And that, to Mallory's point about the danger of that...

That you can shape into anything you want to shape it. Anything can be a sign or a portent if you want it to be. And so it's just like, it's a really fascinating place for her to be in. I think it's interesting that you're looking for a link between Hugh and Ulf and Adam as dragon riders. Yeah.

And I think actually what's interesting about the various Targaryen dragon riders and these dragon riders is like, they're all of different personalities. And the dragons are attracted to different aspects in their personalities, obviously. And what's so fascinating about a dragon like Seasmoke or Vermithor or Silverwing is they've all had previous riders and

They might be attracted to a completely different kind of personality. It's not like they always go after someone who's bellicose or they always go after someone who is peaceful or something like that because you can have...

like Balerion the Black Dread have Aegon the Conqueror as a rider and then also King Viserys who doesn't even really want to ride a dragon, you know? So it's like you're meeting the dragon where they are in their time of life. And I had a little chat with our friend Paula Fairfield who does the dragon noises about, you know, Vermithor and Silverwing and she was like, oh, I envision Silverwing

Whenever Paula talks about the dragons, she wants to make it really clear that she's not speaking necessarily officially what the showrunners think. This is what she thinks when she makes her interesting little dragon sounds at home. And that sounds belittling. Paula's a master at what she does. But she calls Silverwing this grand dam, this older lady, this woman who has been through stuff. And then we do have, I just want to give a tiny preview. We have an interview with Tom Bennett who plays Ulf.

on House of R next week. And, you know, he's like with his natural Cockney accent. He's like, oh yeah, she likes a bit of rough. Like, you know what I mean? He's just sort of like, she's this grand old lady and here's this bumbling Cockney, you know, charming guy who has stumbled into her cave. And she's like,

You know, it's Dame Maggie Smith and whoever on her back. And she's just like, let's go. You know, I'm going to have the time of my life. And that's a very different writer than who she had before. And that's just an interesting thing about dragons. Did Tom Bennett talk about heat?

No, but he did confirm that it was not Milk of the Poppy. No, I'm just kidding. Oh, no, I got excited for a second. The reason why I was smirking throughout the entire time you were talking, Joe, is because I was imagining Seasmoke having like a rebound boyfriend.

Just like, I'm not serious about this guy, but you know, it's fun. We're just going out. You're gonna hit the bars. He kind of looks like you, but you know, he's gonna stay. So yeah. Now I, you know, Rhaenyra and, uh, Alison are basically like their friendship, their relationship, their, their pairing is like the framing device that's guiding the show in a lot of ways. And I thought it was interesting that there's almost a zero something happening. Like,

One of them is alone, the other one is surrounded, in this case, by dragons. And it can never be the same at the same time. Like, there's always this seesaw seemingly going on. In this episode, after Rhaenyra's talked a lot about the isolation of her position and really only having Mysaria to talk to, now we're kind of in a place where Alicent only really has the Maester to talk to as she gets her riot hand bandaged. And...

I was kind of intrigued, but also mystified about like what her journey was this episode as she goes off to the Kingswood, right? To just Ophelia it up. For some air. Yeah. Take the air. Take the world's biggest bath. Yeah.

There's a move over, big crossbow, big bathtub has arrived. Yes. In the form of a natural body of water. Love that for Allison, honestly. I hope she brought her washcloths. This, I love that observation, Chris, about that link, but also kind of seesaw thing.

Because I think even in that seesaw, we still have the link. Alicent is just continuing to live Rhaenyra's life on delay. Like, this is exactly what we saw Rhaenyra do in the third episode of the first season during the hunt when she got on her horse and went off and Kristen followed and it was awesome.

one person, Rhaenyra, one person, Alicent, and one, right, one guard, your sworn shield, like, that's it. Ser Rickard is here with Alicent. Kristen was there with Rhaenyra. And you have the air and the wilderness and the inescapable belief that nobody gives a shit where you are, right? Because what was the thing that Rhaenyra said in the carriage on the way to that hunt? Like, no one's here for me.

And that's the same sensation that Alicent is bringing into this escape, which she says to Orwyle, like, all my life I have endeavored to serve both my house and the realm, and somehow none of it matters. We are cast aside or hated. But we talked a lot about, like, this question of what was going to be next for Alicent, because her entire life has been lived...

And she has, the evolution has been that she has increasingly stared this in the face and resented it and called it out, called out Otto, called out other characters for this reality. But her life has been lived through, for duty, through duty. That was sometimes the justification. That was the mooring. And so if everybody in your life, right, your husband's dead, one of your sons, the one you had, like,

very disturbing relationship with a harrowing do nothing what could you contribute fight with before he was burned into a pile of goo though you know he's upright ish yeah good for him that goo is mobile doing great doing great seems like he's in no pain at all and everything will be fine Agon's gonna be playing the masters next year man rapid recovery my god blood of the dragon indeed

Her other son fired her from the small council, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera, on the list goes. She's looking for purpose just as Rhaenyra was. And so to see her out there in the woods, in the water, that connection to Rhaenyra felt so palpable. I will be honest that there was like, while I find that thematically compelling, Alicent looking for a foothold in the world, there was a little part of me that was like,

Is Allison trying to figure out what to do or is the show trying to figure out what to do with Allison? Well, I had, I had a lead there. I know I pretended like I didn't have any big picture questions, but I do. And this is another little moment where it's like, is the history aspect of this text, uh,

It's not quite matching up with like the storytelling needs of a television show, right? Because they don't necessarily know, okay, like Alison gets sidelined, but what does she do when she's sidelined? And how is what she's doing while she's sidelined attaching itself to all the other characters, if not actually then thematically? So they have to kind of make stuff up like she goes to a pond, right? Yeah.

Yeah, I love that. They're like, what? And the writer's room, someone's just like, what if she goes to a pond? Yeah, I think we're going to have to, because this is a book departure, nobody bothered to jot down Allison's camping trip in the histories. Well, it'd be weird if Mushroom was like, I was also there and she did go swimming. That's his whole thing. That's his whole thing to be like, I was there and then the parenthetical Mushroom who was not there. But yeah, so I think we're going to have to see how that plays out.

Do they need her somewhere for whatever they want or not somewhere for whatever they want to do in the finale? Mallory and I don't know because we're not quite sure what they're doing here. But I think that is doubly true for Rhaenyra. I don't mean to move around on your timeline, Chris. Not at all. The scene with Jace, which I thought was actually really, really well done where Jace...

The idea to get other dragon riders is Jace's initially, and it is Jace's in the book. But in the book, Jace is like, let's do... Let's go the whole thing. You know, all dragon seeds welcome, right? And here, he's having this objection to the bastards because of his own, you know...

bastardly lineage. Nebulous claim, you know? And he was like, the fact that he is a dragon rider has been his proof that he is eligible to be an heir, that he has Targaryen blood in him because he's got the dark hair of his father. Did you know? Did you think we would have dark hair? Like, what a chilling moment. I thought that was so good. But so they needed...

They needed Jace to be out on this part two of the sewing so that Rhaenyra had, again, something to do, which is something all season they've been trying to figure out for Rhaenyra. Because as we've been saying again and again on Talk the Thrones, Rhaenyra's off the board at this point in the story. But they're not going to...

put Emma Darcy in a room and not check in with them. And so it's like, so then this becomes Rhaenyra's project. And I think they did a really elegant job of making Jace's objection feel organic to that character and organic to that relationship. And I thought they did a really good job, you know, again, to Mallory's initial point of like Rhaenyra's

perhaps troubling self-belief as it burdens in this episode. But all of that is part of this idea that you keep coming back to because you host this podcast called The Watch that I hope that people listen to. But you're a TV guy, you're a book guy, but you're a TV guy and you're like, the mechanics of television do not allow you to take your main characters and

stick them in a pond for too long, you know? Or have them only chatting with their one friend while everything else is happening. It's a tough beat. I admire the way they're essentially trying to create

action and tension in conversations because that's really the only thing that these people are doing right now. And that is probably going to be something that this show faces as even the major conflicts come because only so many people can ride dragons, right? I thought that that kind of really came to life in this next scene, the Jasper and Laris conversation about Sea Smoke. So these are two...

I wouldn't call them tertiary characters. We've seen obviously a lot and we have a ton of time for Laris on this show. But this was very crowny to me. Was this idea of a rumor that could actually be of political value. But these two guys are like...

I don't know if I want to hold this football for very long. So why don't you give it to him? No, why don't you give it to him? It would be good for you if you told him. No, I think it's just like, why don't you tell him? And they go back and forth on this. It's a great conversation. It's an interesting, interesting move by Laris, who I think is the character who's been allowed the most ambiguity in this show so far.

Joe, what did you think of this whole moment? I thought it was beautifully written, but it also like interestingly played also while this whole conversation is happening. Eamon is sending a bunch of guys to the wall personally. A bunch of guys, Marty and Eddie. Marty and Eddie, the last of Aegon's bros. Bye. I loved this moment.

I don't know. Am I allowed to say that a Laris scene is, again, my favorite scene of an episode? I love this part. We can only be who we are. I see you. We love you. I support you. I'm happy to keep Jasper in the tertiary character slot, but Laris is, like, kind of the main character energy for me right now. And I think that exactly what you identified, this sort of, like, no, I'll go last. No, I'll go last. Like, you, like...

It would benefit you, don't you think? I just thought all of the undertones of that conversation and all of the looks that they were giving each other and all of the smiles and then the staging of it, I thought was just impeccable. Especially since that staging is something that Mallory and I think about a lot because it's one of Mallory's favorite scenes from season one is...

Laris' father, Lionel Strong, and Viserys watching the boys spar down in the yard from a very similar vantage point. And so for him to be there... It will certainly form a lifelong bond. Wouldn't you agree? Yeah. And here's Aemond sending his brother's buddies to the wall. But yeah, just like the framing over their shoulders of just this blonde figure pacing back and forth and ranting in the courtyard, I just thought was absolutely perfection. I love this. I mean, I think...

I think the sewing as a sort of visual spectacle and character-based spectacle was extraordinary. But I think I just continued to latch mostly to palace intrigue and Laris is my guy for that. Absolutely. So a couple of things here, Mal. Jump on whichever one you want. One, I just thought on a filmmaking level that was really cool how in this episode a couple of times the camera connected different parts of...

So it would basically be like in this situation, you got the balcony scene of them looking down onto the courtyard and seeing things happening in the courtyard while they're having a conversation about things happening beyond the palace walls, right? Another amazing moment was the out of the tunnel and into the Weirwood Garden in Heron Hall. That was really cool. So I love the idea that this world is like got connective tissue that we can see. But for me, it's like,

and this comes up a lot towards the end of the episode, the biggest thing for me was like, who is the source of this rumor that Jasper has? A stable guy, right? And he gets it from, what, a cook or a sailor? Iron Rod Squire, stable hand, his father, fisherman. It's the small phone game of telephone, right? Yeah. And we get another version of that when we watch Masaria's message make its way via Alan and the fishing boat.

the fishing boat network that he has set up all the way to Alinda to start actually recruiting the sea. Tinker, Taylor, Soldier, Massaria. Yeah, the episode telling us like specifically showing us what the network of information is on each side I thought was really, really cool. I loved that. And like you pair...

The specificity of that, of Iron Rod running through the chain of custody of information there, us seeing that later, that's very particular. It's very precise with the opaqueness of what is driving Iron Rod and Lyris in a scene like that. How much is it for...

fear, right, of how Aemon might respond, how much of it is maybe they don't want him to have, are they considering maybe it's better if he doesn't have that information, right? They want him to be back-footed because of what he did in the last episode. Like, we haven't seen a moment like that previously. We saw it after Aemon shamed Larys, and we know that Larys is there with Aegon, like, come on, buddy,

let's go, right? So the sequencing of when we're getting kind of these insights into how people are behaving and the pairing of the kind of like the subtle with the specific I thought was really cool. Okay, I'm going to... Oh, go ahead, Jo. Well, on the small folk question, I think it's really interesting because like

Condal said pre-season premiere, like, you know, we're really going to focus on the small folk this season. This is really an emphasis for us this season. It was the name of an episode. We got a small folk named episode. We've been seeing riots. We've been, you know, in the streets of King's Landing. Just one chicken for the pot. Well, but what's interesting for those of us who are like book readers or wiki perusers is like,

a lot of that felt like cover for the fact that we knew that Hugh Hammer, Ulf the White, and Adam were all going to be dragon riders by the end of the season. That they're like, we're spending time with these small folk, not just because we want to give you an insight into the tavern or, you know, home life with a guy called Hugh, but like, we need you to know these characters so that when we light them on fire or near as later on, you care whether or not we do. But...

It wasn't just that. Obviously, they've done a lot of other work around it. And I think Mal calling out the montage, the Dragon Seed recruiting montage. I don't know that we've gotten like a montage this season on House of the Dragon. Gotta get the gang together. I loved it. And also there's like...

There's a quick shot of anti-dragon propaganda that has been cropping up in all the trailers. And I just thought it was interesting that that was just part of this montage. I don't know if that's another Massaria thing or if that is generally organically coming from the people who are pissed off about the various dragon antics. We'll see. But I think the small folk question and how it's been deployed and how they balance that with...

trying to sneak some dragon riders under the noses of people who didn't know what was coming was an interesting balancing act for them this season. I guess in a different world, we would have gotten a three-episode arc for the guy who got lit on fire. Silver Dennis. How do you guys know his name is Silver Dennis? Silver Dennis.

Christopher Dennis, first of all, he was cast, but that's a character from the book. His approach is described in harrowing detail in the text. I have a question about what Joe was just sketching out about the time with the small folk that I'm interested to ask you as a show lens first person, Christopher. Where did you land on the pros and cons of that, of having spent so much time with the eventual writers? Because on the one hand, we know them and we are more invested in them than if they had just appeared to us in real time at the stowing, which is what happens in the book.

You're like, oh, here are these new writers. But did it sap any of the suspense of the sewing? Again, a sequence I loved and found riveting because you're like, I have to assume that I know who's going to pair here. It's thrown, so like Ulf and Hugh could certainly be killed spectacularly. But it felt, did it feel improbable to you that anyone else would emerge from that scene as a writer? But I wanted, well, I wanted...

wanted one more like red hair like to your point about silver dennis like i would have loved one more one character in that scene who we have spent equal time with who we know and like because stephan darklin is sort of serves that purpose though he's serving another narrative purpose but like he sort of serves that purpose in the previous episode um there are other potentials for that in the book that they opted not to go with which i think is interesting but like

yeah, I was just sort of like, okay, it's a bunch of red shirts and Q and Ulf, who we know, and they're the guys to get the dragon. I've been thinking about that all season. I'm like, where is my like, maybe this person too, maybe this blonde lady I've never met before is going to make it. No, actually we haven't mentioned this because we've been, my fault, jumping around a little bit, but like, I think one of the most chilling things of that whole sewing thing

in the books, it's so voluntary. It's like there's a huge lure. You'll become a knight. You will get lands. Your sons will be unnobled. Your daughters will be married off to lords. If you come, come ride a dragon. I'll present it again, as you noted earlier, as Jace's offer, which is such a fascinating update. But come to us and get all of this bounty. Rhaenyra does, in her speech, say like... I would not describe it as the warmest pitch.

No, but she's just sort of like, you've decided this. Maybe this will change your life. You've decided to do this. All that still

it still felt like you can leave if you don't want to, but then the guards line up behind them and physically hold them back as they try to run. And that felt really wild. I will also say that she even says, even if this works out, your life as you know it is over. Now, maybe some of those people are like, that's great. I mean, she even says, for some of you, that may be good. But either way, you're not going to go back to your old life, even if you do not get lit on fire and eat...

So that was very interesting. To answer your question, Mal, I am a friend of the small folk. But it was, I think, obviously quite telegraphed. They were spending time with the people who were going to be selected. And I would not describe...

specifically as like my favorite storyline in all of television history. So like I was ready for him to become whatever he was going to become, you know, like it was, but I think it's like the little differences between these guys and like the little differences in their outlooks, their psychologies is fascinating. And I think they did a good job painting that, that picture for those guys. They killed.

his daughter off screen. Off screen? Yeah. What happened there? He was like, we lost our girl. And I was like, we did? We're going to save her. It's like, oh, she did. And I don't mean to sound morbid. Look dead.

when they were holding her. She was like gray. Yeah. We could keep going through the episode chronologically. And like I said, we don't have to belabor every one of these scenes. I think that the Adam and Rhaenyra get back to Dragonstone in the council react scene, we've talked a little bit about- Iconic stuff from Keltigar. Just day drinking after getting slapped and embarrassed. That's what I was going to say. That guy did not learn his lesson, so he's still going to shoot his mouth off if she's not around. I'm just going to remind people something we talked about earlier this season, which is that how's Keltigar-

are an old Valyrian family. It's just like, sometimes you get dragons and sometimes you get crabs and the Celticars got crabs and that must suck for them. So yeah, that kind of crabs. I mean, maybe also, maybe also we get Corliss's well done to Adam. Uh,

in both of his interactions with Adam and Alan in this episode, a slight thawing of paternal... It's still pretty chilly. Yeah, I mean, I think he's playing his cards close to his vest. He's a recent... Well done is pretty... That's pretty well done to Adam. I found quite cold. I thought the... You should be a son to a father. That's about as good as it gets. Come on. Come on. I thought there was more... I heard you didn't strike out three times. No.

Well, I mean, you were an all-metro catcher, so I don't think you ever struck out three times. Like just a pure line drive into the gaps guy. I always knew where they were. Always.

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So we had that scene. Then we get to... Honestly, for this episode, best of times, worst of times. Best of times is Oscar and Damon just absolutely crushing each other. Mostly Oscar crushing Damon. An incredible negotiation about what it's going to take to get the men of the Riverlands to join Rhaenyra's cause, which they...

historically, and I think even psychologically, are like, we got to do this, but not for this prick. And that's the problem is because Damon has committed war crimes or at least sanctioned them during his weird stay at Harrenhal. He still managed to do this. And there's a lot of mess on Isle Riverlands to clean up. And Oscar, in his teenage wisdom...

comes up with a solution and Damon eventually goes for it, which is essentially to execute the guy who he had been, Willem Blackwood, is that right? Yeah. The guy who had been his agent of chaos out there and really kind of started the ball rolling with all this stuff.

Oscar's like, "You got all of us, but he has to go and you have to give him the justice." So I thought that scene was amazing. And I have to say, this is one Viserys scene too many for me. The follow-up scene of dreaming of Paddy Considine and this crown and Damon only being able to sort of manifest any sort of psychological depth in this dream state. I love Matt Smith. I want him out of this place in this show. And I want him to be like in the mix more.

I thought he was done after last week. You said he was done, Jo! I thought he was done. I really thought that. And honestly, if this scene had been in last week's episode, I wouldn't have been sort of like as crusty as I kind of feel about it. But like, it's a great scene in terms of like this idea of

you know, ruling is really hard. That's, that's the lesson that Damon is learning here is like causing chaos is fun and, and fighting is fun and winning is fun. Um, but rule being a ruler, it sucks. And maybe that's what Damon walks out of Harrenhal being like, Renera, you're welcome to it. I don't fucking want it actually. Um, I actually don't, if I have to do this, um, I was a little surprised that Damon felt so,

so like morally conflicted about chopping Willem's head off because even, even though like we at home can be like, this is morally repugnant. You ask this guy to do this thing and you're talking of his head for Damon. It feels like, uh, uh, just a, another Tuesday betrayal. Like why wouldn't it have been quicker to cut off Damon's head? Exactly. Um, I did want to ask you, uh,

I know you're just-- you're still reeling after, like, learning about and losing your friend Silver Dennis. But I wanted to ask you how you feel about the fact that one of the river lords in this scene is named Peter Piper. How do you feel about that? It's news to me, honestly. This is breaking news. I'm just receiving this. Uh-huh.

Sometimes I feel like George just ran out of energy at the end of the day and his name is Peter Piper. This is George at his best. This is what he's doing for us. Yeah, Mr. George. Truly, truly. And then he taps the text at the end and says, Mischief Manager, and walks away. Um...

I, yeah, I agreed on the like, would Damon be conflicted? I kind of feel like Damon would just walk over, chop off his head and move about his day. I guess maybe we're supposed to say, oh, this does show that he has made some sort of like moral progress after all of his, to quote my pal and colleague and co-host and partner Joanna Robinson, ghost therapy. I...

I thought that when he saw that I had the same, oh boy, we're not done with the dreams reaction. But I thought like in terms of just that final message, I agree if it had been last week, then it feels more contained. But the final kind of offer, it's like, are you going to take it or not as the final test in the trial feels appropriate? Yeah.

Like, it took me back to Viserys when he named Rhaenyra "Eir," which is, of course, intercut with Daemon-- a Daemon flight, right? He's been cast out. He gets on Caraxes, he flies away. And, you know, Viserys saying to Rhaenyra, like, "A dragon saddle is one thing, but the Iron Throne is the most dangerous seat in the realm." And for every character, like, there's a lesson in that reality in this episode in some form. I mean, we're gonna get to when the Iron Throne

When Aemond has to... Basically, Aemond at the end of the episode just has to pull a Thanos, fine, I'll do it myself. You're a regent, but you're the rider. It's all on you now. Your advisors aren't even telling you what's going on. So everybody has their version of what does that danger look like? And for Daemon to have to confront this child is going to dunk on me...

for eons on end and shame me and I'm going to tell him to watch his tongue and he's going to say, do you want my army or not? And I'm going to have to fucking take it. That was the harder part. There was a part of me that was like, and there's a part of me that was like, I think he just, he's like, you're using me as your puppet and I don't like being like ordered around.

You know, that felt like it was at play there too. That makes sense to me that it's not like if it were his idea to cut Will Blackwood's head off, he's like, no prob, a Tuesday. But it's like him having to swallow. He has to comply. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, there's one thing that I think is bubbling under the surface here that'll be interesting to see if it comes up if and when Damon and Rhaenyra are reunited is that it does seem like a couple of people have mentioned that

you've done some incredibly bad stuff and done it in Rhaenyra's name. Like, they keep mentioning the fact that, like,

hey, by the way, you're the king consort and you're doing this. And when this stuff goes out on the street, it's got her name on it. So just keep that in mind. Keep an eye on that. Because I do feel like they've mentioned it two or three times. And whenever they next have their big blowout fight, which is inevitable when Rhaenyra's like, so where have you been? I do think there's going to be something too, like, by the way, I've made a bit of a mess of the Riverlands. Yeah.

Another mess for you to come clean up for me, Raniera. Thanks so much. Yeah, basically. I got mud everywhere. I'm so sorry. Let's get into Aegon, the long walk. And I got to tell you guys something. It was a pretty short walk before he fell over and cried. Did you experience that this week, Mallory? This has been me all week. This is my journey right now. This is me after exactly one kettlebell workout. I have to say, though,

He looked a lot better than I thought he was going to. I agree. I agree. Is that Tom Glenn Carney stuff where it's like, this guy's just too cute? We got to get him up and around? Like, we can't really melt this dude's face off? Well, it's like in Game of Thrones, Tyrion is supposed to get his entire nose chopped off at the Blackwater. Yeah, and it's like, no, let's just give him a little scar. And they're like, Peter Dinklage is too good looking. We got to keep the whole face intact. Yeah, so I do think...

And also, like, maybe they're doing the prosthetics department a favor where they're like, you don't have to apply, like, the full face when we're doing Aegon. I think you guys are both being quite generous here. While his burns are healing maybe a little ahead of our anticipated schedule, he definitely still looks like Bilbo when we see him and he's finally old. To be fair, he is aged 60 years in a week. Yeah.

And, like, we didn't get a chance to see his chest. Also, I couldn't tell if his cane broke or he rebroke his leg. The sound was troubling. Yeah, it was hard to distinguish. The thing that I want to talk about the most here is Laris coming in and talking to the maester, Joe.

Laris's major line here is, I fear he won't rest for some time or something. I'm paraphrasing Laris, but it's essentially like he will not be resting basically for the rest of his life. So we need to get him in the best shape we possibly can. Why? I think I intuitively understand why he's saying that. What was your read on why he's saying that? Yeah, I have some

I have some question marks around it, but I would say one interpretation would just be like, we both know that Aemond will kill Aegon if he can. And so we need him as strong. If he's going to survive this, he can't just malinger in the bed. He needs to walk around and do his stuff. I have some other ideas, but I don't think they belong anywhere outside of spoiler section. So that's my main thought. What do you think, Mallory? Yeah, I think he...

It will be long before he may rest again. There's like the clock feels very present there. Like, just...

I love how you're describing this, Chris, best shape of his life as like a training camp. I know. And then the question is like, what? Jalen Carter, best shape of his life. Yeah, but you know, we talked about this when we were discussing episode six and like the many things that play with Lyris depriving Egon of the milk of the poppy and how like he needs his focus. He needs him to be sharp for a second just so he could talk to him and they can have that conversation. Right.

but also this budding awareness of how Aemond is operating through Orwild to keep Aegon alive.

So, you know, and Orwild, man. He's taking orders. Laris is giving him orders. Eamon's giving him orders. Alicent is like, what do I do with my life? Like, he is really in the thick of it. So that's interesting to see his increased stature in the story at this point. I thought that there was something interesting going on there because technically speaking, org chart wise, I'm sure Laris has some control over what Orwild does, but it seemed like they were like,

We're simpatico. Orwell seems to be like, I agree with you. His guy's in danger. I would just say Orwell, yes, he's the grand maester. He has this higher calling. But everybody else on that council, he's a political animal. They're always making calculations, all of them, at every moment in time. Thought that the line about, I'll teach you how to walk...

with a limp basically is, was very interesting both in terms of like seem genuinely empathetic but also like I'm going to remind you how disfigured you are in this motivational speech. So very... That's why Lyris is the best. That's why Lyris is the man. He's always saying like nine different things.

We have the Corliss talking to Alan scene, which I really only noted for Alan's enthusiasm for sea and salt. That's great to know what you love in life and to pursue it. But for Corliss, what did Bela say to him when he was like, you know, granddaughter, I would make you...

you my errand. She said, I'm blood and fire. Driftmark must pass to Salton Sea. So he's been like waiting for someone to embrace his legacy, Salton Sea, what his house and his name stands for. I thought there was a lot of nuance in the lead up to that because he is like

you know, again, he asked about his mother's history. I thought that was such a tough look for our guy, Corliss Valerian, to be like, I fathered two bastards on your mother and didn't really know anything about her. Brutal. Genuinely brutal. I was on tour with Motley Crue in the 80s. Right. But this is what Steve said to us when we interviewed him about this. He's like, it's,

It's one thing to have one bastard. Yeah. One illegitimate kid with a woman you don't really know. To have two over the course of several years. That's an affair that lasts several years. And he doesn't know anything about her. Wild stuff. But then the fact that he was basically like, so this rider that everybody's talking about, it's your brother. Our people are of old Valeria, but we're no dragon lords. I don't...

didn't know much about your mother's heritage. Maybe there's something on her side that allowed for this. Do you think you should go try? And then that little smile when Alan said, I'm salt and sea. On the one hand, you know there's a part of Corliss that's like, I haven't acknowledged them out loud to other people as my bastards yet, as my sons.

You know there's a part of him that's like, wow, Adam, my kid, claimed a dragon. Holy fuck. That's awesome. Right? That's power. That's great. That's might. And so there's a little bit of that behind the Alan push. But this felt like a win-win. Either Alan says yes and goes to try to claim a dragon and he has two dragon riders in his line. Or Alan does this and says, no, actually, like, it's the fleet for me.

That's what he wanted somebody to say to him. Yeah, my life, my love, my lady is the sea. Yeah, he doesn't honestly... They just go full Guardians 2. Has only left the docks twice by my count in this season of television. Once when he's like walking back with Adam to like get stew.

And then once on his little spy mission in this episode. So that guy is really about that life. Well, yeah. This is something that Mal and I talked a bit about on House of R with Alan and Adam and with Hugh and with Ulf. But I have fewer complaints about Ulf just because I really liked Al Bennett. But all of them were given one-note characteristics, right? Hugh is a guy with a sick kid. Alan...

Ulf likes to tell stories for beer. You know, and Adam, it's all centered around sort of like one story note. Like Adam, when Corlys says, well done in a way that Mallory and I found chilly and you found heartwarming. And then Adam's just like alone in that. Basically, I want to have a catch, dad. But I'm like, I'm like, who's hanging? Adam's brought into Dragonstone. Like,

And no one... He's all alone there. And I was like, but what do I know about him other than he likes to make soup and, you know, gather seafood from the shore and talk to his brother about what they're owed? I'm like, did he have friends and, like, a girl or boyfriend he left behind? Like, does he, like...

what is Adam's state of mind here other than giddy excitement, which is very much present. And I'm just like, I just, I want to know more. I want to know more. It reminded me of, of seeing Gendry, like a bastard brought into Dragonstone for some rulers, like end in need. And like, I,

you know, because we know that Adam has this ambition and is excited and like bent the knee seemingly gladly and all of that, it mitigates and abates that comparison a little bit. But there is still that like sensation, I think, that builds over the course of the episode when we see like what Chris was describing earlier and track kind of Rhaenyra's face. And I thought Rhaenyra watching the sowing of the seeds turn into the red sowing, the slaughter, which is so, so...

so harrowing and disturbing. And it's like, everybody is a pawn in the great game, ultimately. You're in the great game now. I will say that I didn't really have a lot of notes on Reyna at the Eerie Gettner event.

Here's one. And we talked about this on House of Arbors just to get it on the Talk to Thrones record because we actually saw it now. We saw the departing party for the gay abandon. Jane Arons saying that she was going to send six men with...

four royal children storm cloud the dragon the eggs and reina is such a dereliction of responsibility duty and a pledge it is astonishing and shocking when i actually saw them walking out i was like arranged where are all the people and what was up with her look to reina after the fact like she as the doors are closing she's kind of like what's that what do you think she was trying to communicate there joe

It's a great question. I don't have a great answer. There's a part of me in trying to make Jane Aaron a slightly more interesting character than she has been so far because she's really cool in the book. Oh, so she's trying to be like, ooh, she's mysterious. Like, what's she about? Or maybe she's like, is this some sort of like, I challenge you to go clean that dragon? Is that what's happening here? That's me having to read

way between the lines and that's probably not what's happening there. She's just probably like, and I look stoic and goodbye. But I would love for there to be an extra agenda for Lady Jane Eyre. Okay, so let's get to the Rhaenyra-Jace fight. We talked about this a little bit so we can move through it. I will just say that

several times over the course of this season, and I believe even in this episode, especially in this conversation with Jace, the Oppenheimer, we need to show them what true power is so that we can avoid this war and make it like a bloodless conflict thing.

She's making that into her... That's her platform now. She says that to all the seeds too, like without bloodshed. We think this is going to happen without bloodshed? She's proven wrong literally five seconds later. So she keeps saying this. She seems to ignore the fact that Reni's burned up most of an army at Rook's Rest.

Like, multiple people have been lit on fire during the sewing attempts in the past. And now she's still just like, I have to have all these dragons. We have to have this superiority so that people understand what this power means. And then I could just take the throne like I'm supposed to because these guys will understand what the consequences would be. So I thought that was interesting. When you start telling your kids that stuff, Joe, it's like, you believe it. You're starting to really believe your own cooking there.

I think it's interesting. We skip past them, which is fine. The conversation that she has with Massaria, where Massaria is... Oh, I love that too. Yeah, it's like looking under the sheets instead of in the woodpiles. Yeah, a classic direct George R. R. Martin quote. But I think that when Massaria says, the order of things has changed your grace, why not embrace it? And something Amal and I talk about a lot is that in this great scene that we love from season one, when Rhaenys challenges Rhaenyra's, not conflict,

but just saying like, they're never going to accept you. You know, it's not the order of things. And Rhaenyra says, when I am queen, I will make a new order. Not the band, but just like, you know, a new approach. And so like, when she says, let us raise an army of bastards, it's her like, that's going to go on the merch, right? Like that's the campaign slogan for Rhaenyra now. I just think that it's something that she's been dreaming of literally like since we first met her in season one, this idea of like, I set the rules.

And Rhaenyra as like a kind and empathetic character has been interesting to know, but this has always been in her. Yeah, it's where it's going. This idea of I am making the world into where I want it to be. He shared the dream with me. Yeah. I have a greater responsibility. And then Mysaria's like, just tweet, you are a brat. Totally love it. Yeah.

Start wearing green. You got it. I think that the... I guess that wouldn't work for Rhaenyra. She can't really start wearing green. It's a different shade of green. It's a lime green. Very limited color palettes on offer for the bulk of the characters right now. Stuff. Stuff. Okay. I think that there's...

The most charitable read I think we could have on what you're outlining, Joe, the like, so let's be team bastard, right? Let's do it. Is that that could be, you could argue, that that is, for Rhaenyra, a version of wear it like armor. What we talked about last week. Make your weakness your strength. People have been saying for nearly a couple decades, like since Jace was born, that your kids, that your heir, that they're bastards, that they're not legitimate. And...

You've been avoiding it and afraid of it and worried about how it was going to cut down your claim and lean in. But for Jace, all it is is a threat to the most sacred and personal life.

and fear that he carries. And it's not like Jace and Rhaenyra have never talked about Harwin Strong. Like in the sixth episode of season one, he flat out said, is Harwin Strong my father, right? He had that very heart-wrenching moment that we'd like to talk about at Lena's funeral in the next episode. Like I have as much claim to sympathy as they do after Harwin had been burned in the Harrenhal fire. It's part of why we were so struck when we saw Jace and Bela just openly discuss Harwin and

in the second episode of this season because like acknowledging this out loud in any way is a dangerous thing for Jason always has been. It's the undermining thing, right? To his entire sense of identity and self. And so from his perspective, I'm interested to see if it feels like this tracks for everybody watching this episode, like how we go from Jace being the character to,

two episodes ago to say like he was the one who issued the to gild us in glory line about the Targaryen propaganda and then so how does he go here to like well not just the hideousness of him saying like they're mongrels which of course again is coming from he's projecting his own insecurity and fear of what other people think of him but still brutal right but

how does he go from like, it's just to gild us in glory into, well, if anybody can claim a dragon, then what are we? Like, what is House Targaryen? What does it mean to be the blood of the dragon? And I think that actually tracks nicely. I really agree with what Joe said earlier because it feels like the logical, rational starting point of let's go find the highborns, the Targs who married into other houses, you know,

is a different thing for him than let's open this up to people who might be able to challenge my claim. Because other people in the realm might think that they had an equal claim to me because they will also only see me as a bastard. I think one of the things that

Team Black has going against it is just a real lack of definition of what people are supposed to be doing because so much of the core of that group of people is made up of people that need to stay alive. So while Kristen is walking into war and Eamon seems to be down to go get Vhagar anytime anything pops off, it's like Rhaenyra is reluctant to put Jace in charge of anything. He kind of freelances that whole thing at the Twins in the first place because he's supposed to fly to Harrenhal, isn't he?

He's not supposed to leave at all. He's supposed to stay in his room. So she's basically treating him like he's grounded. Bela is slowly coming into fold. She's got the cool cloak on in this episode. But I don't necessarily feel like she's been given a huge mandate of things to do.

It seems like they're kind of like, we're trying to fight a war without actually fighting a war until the very end of this episode where they obviously get like... It's supposed to be Damon, right? Like, Damon is supposed to be the one, like... And Rhaenys. And she's like, Damon, Damon, Damon! Yeah, I'm talking about that, yeah. But like...

you know, Rainis and Damon, like they had those people, those people just like either left or died or, or, um, you know, Corliss is waiting for them to scrape the final barnacle off the ship. And then he can like, you know, activate the fleet. Like it's, it's really interesting to me that idea of, can we fight this war without bloodshed? There already has been bloodshed, but can we go forward without bloodshed? The reading up on like reminding myself of,

what Vermithor and Silverwing specifically have done in the history as dragons of royal Targaryens was really an interesting way to think about what going forward could look like because...

Vermithor is a massive old dragon, but like Vermithor and Silverwing were ridden by Jaehaerys and Alysanne, who we met in the very first episode, right? At the Great Council. That old, old king and his wife, these were their dragons. And there's just all these stories, like Jaehaerys has this

Jihar is the conciliator, right? Conciliated. That's what he did. There was no, there was peace. He conciliated. But what he often did was just let his dragons intimidate people. Deterrence. Yeah. When there's a, there's a great passage where like he's pissed off a Baratheon. The Baratheon comes in and he just has Vermithor there eating a bull and he like scratches under his chin and he's like, we don't, we don't have a problem, do we? Like we're good. Right. And the Baratheon's like,

Yeah, we're good. We're good. Or when they're picking a new, you know, high septon down in Old Town, he and his wife just like right over there on their dragons and Silverwing just like sits atop the tower, fans the flames of the tower with her wings. And they're like, I guess we'll pick the pope that you think should be the pope. I guess that'll be the new pope. And so it's like,

They have worked as deterrents in the past. And this is like, I can understand how Rhaenyra could see that as a possible future. I just need to fly my dragon somewhere and people will just calm down. They've just never had to do that against other people who had dragons before. That Vermithor moment that you're citing is like one of my favorite passages in the book because I think it's,

I think like everything else, the histories end up painting somebody with one label and then you see the complexities of it. And so like Jaehaerys the Conciliator, Jaehaerys the Old King, this idea of the peaceful reign, which is true, but that doesn't mean there wasn't anger or conflict or menace or intent behind it. And so like, why would I need hostages? I have your word, that is all I require. But Grand Maester Bennifer heard the words he did not speak. Every man and maiden child in the Stormlands is my hostage whilst I ride him. Like-

Yeah. That's intense. I think the thing is that there's no case you could make, you being anyone in the story, that Rhaenyra thinks Aemond and Vhagar on the other side are going to say, cool. Now, of course, I say that acknowledging that Aemond turns around at the end, but that's not the same as saying the throne is yours, here you go. And I don't think Rhaenyra believes that that's possible, which then connects to...

can we do it without blood? Can we build up enough strength to win the arms race and avoid bloodshed? Then connects to this other thing we're tracking throughout the episode, this idea of like the righteous ordained path. Because what she says to Jace, who was like...

And weeping and just asking whether he's right to do it or not. It's a son staring at his mother, crying and saying to her, don't do this. Like, don't do this to me, right? And she says to him, I cannot gainsay that which the gods have laid before me. Now, Rhaenyra... She also says right before that, she's like, I dislike all of this, which is very well, it's a beautiful turn of phrase, but it's not exactly like, I hate to do this to you, but it's got to be done. You know, like...

And the two things that it made me think of, though, were like with Rhaenyra and her own history, not just with obviously Aegon's dream and what she has inherited with this prophecy and that burden, but like Rhaenyra saw the Whiteheart, remember? In the third episode last season. The Whiteheart, everyone thinks it's going to come and be there for Aegon. Oh, I'm the conqueror, babe. Signs, importance, all this stuff. And it appears to Rhaenyra

and Rhaenyra sees it, Kristen sees it, Rhaenyra doesn't tell anybody. Rhaenyra is not a character at that point in her life who feels like she has to go around saying, I seem to be the one that the signs are pointing to. But now she is. That's a notable change in how she behaves. Like, that's something that feels essential for us to track. And then who's her father? Her

Her father is the guy who in that same episode got fucking blitzed and stood by the bonfire and wept to Allison saying, my obsession killed Rhaenyra's mother. What obsession? The obsession with the dream, right? With signs and portents and dreams and prophecy. And you could maybe quibble whether that's exactly the same as saying the gods had blessed your mission, but I think it's all of them.

peace and so we know how that led Viserys astray and for Rhaenyra to be a character saying these things in this episode is like really alarming to me and then to stand there and to walk away and say like I've told you all I can we didn't really go over the do's and don'ts but I've told you all I can the dragons must be the ones to speak now and then to stand there as Vermithor bathes them in fire was so disturbing and has her guards prevent them from leaving that was like the real thing so like I like that we then have that conflict as viewers too right because we're like

Let's go. Let's get to this part. We're near, like, got the dragons. We powered up. Let's get to this part of the episode. Because, like, you basically, I mean, I'll just note quickly how, like, I really enjoyed the dragon trainers walking out on strike, uh,

That was interesting just because I did not really... That's another sign, right? Yeah. Would you consider that an omen if they walked out on you and said, like, fuck this? Right. Well, also, just like, I think it's worth distinguishing for viewers who maybe aren't well-versed. Those guys are...

of a different-- Like, their allegiance is to the dragons, correct? It's different from the book to the show because in the book, they're an order created by Jaehaerys. Like, a recently created order. And they're armored. They're like-- Ryan Connell described them as like the Swiss Guard in the book. But basically what happened is in season one, they did not have the budget to create beautiful dragon keeper armor for all these people. So he made this lore change that now they're these like monastic

Dragon keepers. And he ran it by George and George is like, that's fine. I was listening to him talk about this. George is watching Giants tape. He's like, sounds good. Sounds good to me. Marking in on Daniel Jones's knee. Ryan Condal and David Mandel, who is the showrunner on Veep, have a podcast called The Stuff Dreams Are Made Of, which is about props. And they had an episode with Ellie Murphy, who's the prop master on House of the Dragon, where

It's like April 11th, 2023, where they talk about the dragon keepers a lot. And there's all this lore that he's created for them. He's like, there's an elder and an acolyte and they work in pairs and the elders give up English at some point and only speak Valyrian. Like he created this whole lore for them that we don't necessarily really know. But in doing so makes them feel less like agents of the crown and more like this long line of, you know, a group that has, that came over from old Valyria and,

and have their own ideas about this, that, and the other thing, which makes it very different from the version in the book, I would say. Okay. Sorry, long answer to your short question. No, that's fine. So, Misaria's... I think the Dragon Keeper should fuck off. That's my take. Like, putting these saddles on these dragons... Teaspoke's sitting there with a saddle on him for almost...

better, more than half a decade after Laenor died. It's like horrible controlling them, trying to command them. A dragon is not a slave, Chris. We know this. The dragon is not a slave. They have bolts through their necks. Oh, that's too bad. You hate to see that. Yeah.

Uh, Misaria brings over a bunch of would-be dragon riders. Blonde hair, uh, preferred, but not necessary. And they show up. Rhaenyra gives them a little bit of a speech. It's interesting. I thought that really quick moment where she basically, like, shoos away her bodyguard was very interesting because it reminds you all of these people come from King's Landing. And they basically answer to summons, uh,

But this is an insane thing to do to welcome all of these strangers into arm's reach of your person and into your castle without like vetting. So you could say this is her putting her faith in these people. And it's a very like selfless act. Or you could say she's starting to get a little bit of like God complex here where she's like, nothing's gonna happen to me.

Right? Like, I'm too big for just... I'm not the kind of person who's going to die in a room with a bunch of small folk. Right? I've always liked the fact that Rhaenyra was a character who was unafraid to do the desperate thing. Other characters call her out on it all the time. Alicent, Rhaenys, and she's like, what difference does it make if it's desperate? But when does desperate... Desperate can be bold, right? Some people are afraid to do the desperate thing, and so they never try to do the thing that might possession them to win. That's one way to put it. But like...

Did anyone ask Silver Dennis, hey, who do you think should be on the crown? Was anyone like, oh, Ulf, tell me, have you ever stood in a pub and touted that you think I'm the rightful queen and then mentioned that you think Jace is the rightful heir? You have? Cool, great. Hey, Hugh, have you ever stood in the throne room after making scorpions for Aegon and said that you're glad to serve him? Oh, okay, I have some follow-up questions. Like, there was none of that. That's true, but I think also the...

amongst a crowd of people move, that felt very...

it's one of the first things we learn about Daemon Targaryen is that he is like the, you know, the people's prince, right? I thought you were going to say very Dany. Like Dany in the middle of a crowd of people that could just like surround her and could hurt her, but don't. That's different. That's supplicants. This is more like, I'm just like, I'm among the people and it's something that like, Daemon, yeah, and it's something that like Daemon showed her when he smuggled her out of the castle and they had their like really totally normal uncle knees night. And her response at that time was like, fuck the small folk. I don't give a shit what they think or what they need.

But she's just sort of like, but this is what it's like to be among them. And something we've been talking about, Mallory, is the way in which Rhaenyra is trying to cosplay Daemon to a certain degree. So I was just reminded of her. What would Daemon do in this scenario? He'd be like, I can walk among these people. This is fine. I'll be fine. Yeah, it's a great call. Okay, let's do the sewing. That becomes the red sewing. Not quite as effective as the red wedding because I don't have the emotional attachment to some of these people that I did the people who were at the red wedding.

I want to ask about Vermithor first, who is summoned by Rhaenyra. Is this the starter dragon? No, you have to start with Silverwing. This was astonishing. You have to. You have to start with Silverwing. Is Silverwing, like, was Silverwing just like, I just want to sit here with this brood of eggs? You know what I mean? Not to be, maybe that's a very sexist thing for me to say. Moms can be war machines too. But Rhaenyra wasn't

it wasn't like hey silverwing are you up for it old silverwing judged to be the most docile of the masterless dragons like i might at least start with the more chill dragon who i did think it was very effective ultimately storytelling for vermithore to basically burn and eat everyone and silverwing to just sort of like nose and hustle yeah very sweet well that's what i was gonna ask too is that obviously vermithore knows to respond to its own name

uh and i think dragons are smarter than people like you're making give me a second here before we get into iq tests for these fictional beasts i want to ask though it understands its name and it understands come here it wouldn't understand hey if you're not feeling this feel free to like take a step back or blink twice not kill everyone that you don't like that's just what dragons do man

Not sure if you've heard that dragons are not horses and also a dragon is not a slave. Like, Vermithor, the gall to summon Vermithor. No, it's not like a... I'm not trying to enslave the dragon. I'm trying to be like, hey, so, like, we're going to try this. If you don't like this guy, it's cool. This is the risk. This is the risk. And again, like, no, seriously. The action is the juice. The action is the juice. Rhaenyra knows that, though. Rhaenyra knows the risk. Obviously, we saw it with Seasmoke and Stefan on a smaller scale, but Rhaenyra knows that there's a chance that...

that Vermithor says, I'm not here for this, and kills everyone. It's not only in play as a possibility, it's almost like a probable outcome. Here's, I think, my real critique of this. I would not send the whole group...

I would just stagger them. Yeah, just like small groups and put the rest of them in a soundproof place in Dragonstone so they can't hear the wails and the screams and the crisping of the skin. But who are we to quibble? Because it worked. Not a fan of Rhaenyra going up to the press box. If you're going to call the play, stand on the sidelines. Yeah, you stay on the field. You stay on the field and you keep the headset on. I don't want to see Dan Quinn up there with a bat

We're like, yeah, I can get a good vantage point. Oh, man. Give me a break. Chris, can we tell you something about Vermithor and Silverwing? Both Joe already mentioned Jaehaerys and Alisane. So, like, first of all, one thing to keep in mind is, like, they know each other, right? They've spent their lives together, those two dragons. Like, that's an interesting thing as well because their riders were...

and also, stop us if you've heard this before, married. But this is an interesting little dragon lore nugget is that both Vermithor and Silverwing, they were born to Jaehaerys and Alysanne respectively from their eggs. So their older sibling, Rhaena, gave them eggs in their cradles and then those dragons were born to them. So they've had prior riders, just as Seasmoke had,

but they'd only had those prior writers. Like, J. Harris and Alice Anas Joe was noted earlier, lived for a really long time. New experience for these two. Okay. Yeah, they're just their second writers. Silverwing has been to the wall. Love that. Didn't want to go beyond. That's the one that they're talking about in the first episode of the season? Mm-hmm.

Wow. Okay. Well, actually, I think they were talking about Vermithor, but that's a lore change. But Silverwing did go to the wall. Yeah. Okay. Vermithor, after burning, maiming, and none of these people had the benefit of offing themselves while they were on fire. Where's the dagger? Vermithor eventually, quote unquote, chooses Hugh. I was curious whether you thought...

Vermithor responded more to Hugh's trying to save that woman or Hugh being like, fuck it, let's be legends and just screaming in Vermithor's face. And Vermithor was like, I love this energy. Can I just say that? You and I are going to get a long brain. I thought that interaction with that woman was so interesting because last time we saw Hugh, well, other than the conversation he has where he's like, remember how our kid died off screen of...

Like in the streets of the King's Landing, punching someone to grab their bag of food and like running off. When he grabs that woman, when he gets behind the rock and he grabs that woman, she like gasps and kind of flinches and it's like unclear. Is he going to help her or is he going to like throw her in front of the dragon? Is he chivalric or is he selfish? And then he does like, you know, he pulls the full Jurassic Park, distracting her and I...

I don't know. I don't know what he was thinking at that moment. My kid is dead. Can I make a lady of my wife? This is the last thing I can do. We learn about his Targaryen ancestry, which I don't... Mal and I will spend more time. Then we're going a little long. Mal and I will spend more time talking about this. Sarah Tark! We'll spend more time talking about this in House of R, but who we think it is,

I can kind of see how... I was floored by this. Yeah, it's a wild pick. But I can kind of see how then we're... The same way we're meant to understand Ulf a little bit better by knowing which Targ he belongs to, which Targ this guy belongs to. Maybe he's just defiant. Defiant and rebellious, I guess, is what I would pick up. But it's almost like he's like, I've kind of shed my family and now I'm a wild man out here.

like a guy i read that from him a little bit do you feel like cat was like done done with him like i don't know i mean i thought she was like i don't want i don't want you to do this i don't want to be a lady i don't want to be a widow and if you and he's articulating a lot of what adam has talking about where he's like i want to matter i want i want i want more from my life than like scrounging you know uh

I got the impression that there was a little bit of like, if this is how I go, better this than starving with my wife kind of looking at me side-eyed. I mean, much more than I would believe that, you know, Rainis was...

committing suicide at Rook's Rest, I could believe that Hugh Hammer's like, I got nothing to lose. Let's go. Yeah. For sure. And then we get Mallory into Ulf getting, you know, scurrying around. Did he destroy any dragon eggs? He opened the, like, protective crust around a clutch. Okay. We saw Damon, like, really carefully open that in season one, and then we just saw Ulf stomp through it. It was devastating.

Such secondhand embarrassment for my guy, Ulf. But eventually, Silverwing comes up, nuzzles him, chooses him, and Ulf... I guess Rhaenyra hadn't really thought this through about what happens if anybody actually gets chosen. Ulf's just like, I'm taking this for a ride right now. I don't need to sign any paperwork. I want to see, I want to open this thing up.

Was that a silver wing audible or was Ulf like, let's buzz the tower at King's Landing and see what happens? I have no idea. I think it's completely believable and in play to me that Ulf would be like,

I really hope my boys see this. Let's go. Like, I think on the, on the one hand, it's clear. He's not, it really, he's not in control. He has no idea what he's doing. He's barely hanging on. That's the initial test. Remember we saw like when Amon claimed Vhagar, like that first flight, that test, can you stay on? But if he, if he did at any point gain the ability to guide at all, and he was probably like, Oh, if they see me and cheer for me, how wonderful. I certainly do not think a couple of things. One Scorpion guys, I,

On the battlements, the ramparts of the Red Keep could not have been less prepared for this. Ark's gone, so... They failed to shit without him. That's the real legacy of the Cargill twins. They were needed and they had purpose after all. I have another note. Aemond parking Vhagar so far away, weeks...

Vhagar's too big to be any closer. But it reeks of me being like, you know what? I just got my car washed. I'm going to park it really far from the mall. And then when I'm leaving the mall, I'm like, I made a huge mistake. This is a terribly long walk back to my car. Like, Vhagar having to be like, or Aemon having to be like, now I have to ride a horse a significant amount to get to Vhagar, summon him, and then get up in the air. So he gets up in the air. I'm sorry. Yeah.

I refer to my car as him. Chris, if you got an electric, you would park closer to the door because you'd plug in, you know? I'm going to just play Andy's part here and say that. I felt like I had to. But when it's Fury Road time, who's more ready, you know? Joe, old fried's on King's Landing and Amon answers the call. He goes up there with Vhagar.

Incredible work between Varys and Ironrod. It looked like they were headed for each other, but I think at this point, Ulf's actually heading back towards Dragonstone and Aemon's chasing him. Aemon, one eye, but apparently a very good one, seems to spot the amassing dragons on Dragonstone. Am I right by assuming that? Yeah, and then he did enhance, enhance, and saw the look on Rhaenyra's face and was like, not today, Fakar. Yeah. Yeah.

What's interesting, I don't think this is right. But for one split second, I had the thought of like, did Rhaenyra do this? Did Rhaenyra bait a trap with Silverwing and Ulf? I don't think...

she would necessarily risk her brand new hard one dragon rider with baiting that trap but i did have that thought of like did she try to lure uh amen over to either take amen on or just be like what's up but if but and this is something i texted you guys if that

if that had been the move, I feel like Bela would have been out there on Moondancer and Adam would have been out there and see Smoke and she would have been like, we got the whole crew. So I think, and she's still sooty. It's like no time has passed. This is like mirror moments later. And so, yeah, I think it's just that Silverwing like just took off, was like, let's go for a ride, babe. And, but Rhaenyra like, and Hugh on Vermithor's back were just sort of there at the...

At the shore, ready. So, Rhaenyra's with her dragon. Yes, I X. Yep. Hugh is behind her on Vermithor, who is the biggest next to Vhagar. Mm-hmm. And then who's flying up in the sky behind them? That's Ulf on Silverwing. Yeah. Oh, okay. And so, Jace is not on his dragon. Jace is sulking somewhere. Jace and Vermax are never invited. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Adam and Seasmoke, yeah. Adam and Seasmoke, Baelon Moondancer, and Theory Jason Vermax, if they're ever invited, the numbers grow. But it's interesting. We were talking last week about all these little coalitions that were formed and how Eamon made this move to just fire everyone off his small council and strip everyone away because he's like, I don't need anyone. It's just me and Vhagar and we can take on the world. We're still waiting on Otto to get there. But Tessarian...

has taken wing. Yes. We heard that Prince Darren's dragon, Tesseriant, has taken wing. Iron Rod said that the Hightowers are going to be unstoppable. Iron Rod's never been wrong about anything before. But that's a big... I mean, these Darren teases are just, like, unbelievable at this point. The volume is astonishing. Just put Darren in the second season if we're going to mention him this much. But I also fucking love them. And I consider them, like, the sustenance of life until we actually meet Darren in season three. So that was nice. But the point was, like, that Aemon is, like...

for the first time in a while, is like, oh, just me. A coalition of just me is not going to be enough against what Rhaenyra has done here. A pretty iconic shot to end the episode on. Like usual, we do not see the scenes from next week, and I'm sure that they would be pretty inscrutable anyway because it's the finale. I do note, just with interest, that with this amount of dragons now out there,

taken in the sea air with characters I feel like there's just going to be a lot of dragon acting going forward and a lot of like visible this person is touching a dragon's head and get right buckle up man because like I thought the Vermithor stuff with Rhaenyra especially was like and like the drool on the teeth but

But also the focusing in on just one eye. I think that was like the most realistic a dragon face has ever looked on any screen I've ever watched. I thought it was incredible. So dragons respect other dragons riders. How do you mean? Well, Rhaenyra can't ride in Vermithor. Oh. Right? She's sort of like summoning him. But she can kind of settle him down and whisper sweet nothings to him.

Well, he did allow Damon to sing him his lullaby last season as well. And I will note that I think Rhaenyra's facial expression was kind of part of the answer to your question, Chris. She had a like, he came when I called. He let me reach out. It's a sign. Yeah, I did it. Another sign. Only I can do it. Okay. All right. But you know, they come when the dragon keepers call. They're in communication with the people around them. That's not the same as... They're incredibly responsive animals. They know where their food comes from.

Joe, thank you. Mal, thank you so much. You guys were amazing. Thank you, Chris. Despite everything. And thanks to Jack and everybody behind the scenes for putting us together here virtually. You can listen to Joanna and Mallory discuss this episode of House of the Dragon in depth on House of R. You can listen to the Midnight Boys break down this episode. You can listen to me and Andy discuss

misunderstand most of this episode on the watch. You can also watch us. Please subscribe YouTube slash ringer verse. It's the reverse channel on YouTube. And you can also watch us on Spotify. So thank you so much for checking us out. We will be back. We will be live as live can be next Sunday in the studio. All things being equal after the finale of house of the dragon season two. Can't wait to see you all there.

Thank you.