House Of The Dragon: Ep. 1 “The Heirs Of The Dragon”
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We have royal wounds, you and I. The child bed is our battlefield. We must learn to face it with a stiff lip. Now take a bath, you stink of dragon.

What do you think dragons smell like? What's dragon stank exactly? What are the ingredients? You know, I thought about it the first time it came up in this episode. I thought about it the second time it came up in this episode. I think it's obviously smoky. I wonder if there's like some paprika vibes in there. Paprika? You know, like a little spicy, a little smoky. What do you think? What came up for you? I think it's obviously smoky. I think that's right. I think there's probably like a gasoline smell.

kind of smell, which obviously would be absolutely foreign to everybody in this world. Like diesel?

Yeah, like diesel fumes. I also could not stop thinking about how absolutely mortifyingly embarrassing it would be to first have your mom say, hey, you stink. You need to take a bath in front of your best friend. And then later have your dad say, hey, you're late for work. And also you smell. And all the most powerful people in the realm are here watching that happen. Not her most professional mom.

Welcome to the official Game of Thrones podcast, House of the Dragon. I am Jason Concepcion, host of the podcast X-Ray Vision from Crooked Media. And I'm Greta Johnson, host of WBEZ's Nerd App podcast. And this is a Game of Thrones podcast for everybody, whether you are an OG Thrones watcher or if you are starting the journey with this new HBO original series, House of the Dragon. And Greta...

This is it. This is it! Episode one just premiered on HBO. Stream it now on HBO Max. If you're listening to this and you haven't done that, stop right now. What are you doing? Go watch the episode. We have entered a new chapter for this podcast. We are in the great game now, which is discussing actual episodes of House of the Dragon.

So I have a lot of thoughts and feelings. I'm sure you do too. We are going to dig into all of it here and with our audience. Of course, this is your spoiler warning. As Jason says, if you haven't seen it, you should probably do that first. We're going to be talking about every episode after it airs on Sundays. I'm talking recaps. I'm talking death counts, good old fashioned analysis and discourse. This is going to be fun.

Also, we'll be talking to the cast and crew from House of the Dragon, where they'll share their insights on pivotal scenes, and we'll learn many, many secrets from the Crypt of the Dragon. I can't wait for that. I cannot wait for those secrets. But first, Jason, how does it feel to be back in Westeros? What do you think? Absolutely thrilling. Right? Like returning to an old friend who is messy and dramatic. Yeah.

and who doesn't clean up their home, but who I just can't wait to spend time with. It was really just so exciting. It felt so great to be back. What about you? Yeah, I think it feels like an old friend, but there are also obviously so many new elements that I think are really exciting for people who were fans of the original series, you know?

Hey, for those of you just tuning into the podcast, welcome. We are very glad that you are here to take this wild and weird journey with us. When you are done listening to today's episode, I highly recommend that you check out our first three episodes. They include interviews with some of the cast of House of the Dragon. We also hear a conversation with George R.R. Martin himself. It's great. You should totally listen to it.

So now that that is out of the way, today we are discussing episode one of House of the Dragon. It is called The Heirs of the Dragon. Jason, I'm going to put you on the spot and have you give us like a quick and dirty recap. Okay, here we go.

In the last days of old King Jaehaerys, the realm votes that a woman can't rule Westeros. We fast forward 10 years to the rule of the old king's successor, King Viserys. Queen Emma, Viserys' wife, is pregnant and everyone, especially King Viserys, hopes it's a son because otherwise their choices for heir to the throne are Prince Daemon, who's a little too unpredictable to be true.

to be king and Princess Rhaenyra, who the realm won't accept no matter how good she is because she's a woman. See the previous thing I just said. Rhaenyra is close friends with Alicent Hightower, whose father is Otto Hightower, who is the hand of the king and who is also an enemy of Prince Daemon. Sadly, Queen Emma dies during childbirth and the child, a son, dies soon after.

Daemon is back to being the presumptive heir, but then after he rents out a brothel like it's a Dave and Buster's, he disgraces himself with a tasteless speech leading King Viserys to name Rhaenyra his heir. Jason, that was expertly done. Thank you very much for that. I want to dive a little deeper into a great many of the things that you just sort of hinted at. But first, I think we should actually talk about how this episode works as a series premiere because, you know,

You know, pilots are hard is a mantra that I have said many times on Nerdette. I think they can be really tricky in terms of, you know, wanting to throw people in the middle of the action, but making sure there is enough exposition so that people understand what's happening. Sometimes you can get really clunky dialogue so that you kind of understand what people's relationships are or whatever. So, yeah, what did you think? How did it work for you? I mean, I thought this episode was so masterful at the way it

melded necessary info dumps with character building and dialogue that felt dramatic and real. You know, there's that moment where Alicent and Princess Rhaenyra are chilling in the Godswood, not doing homework. Did you read it? Of course I read it. When Princess Nymeria arrived in Dorne, who did she take to husband? A man. What was his name?

Lord something. If you answer with Lord something, Septimalo will be furious. She's funny when she's furious. That's one of my favorite scenes. You get an entire like download on history of Dorne and Nymeria's travels to Dorne that happen in the flow of understanding how these characters relate to each other. And this episode is full of stuff like that. Do you have any other scenes that you liked in that regard?

Oh my gosh. I mean, I think Rhaenyra obviously is a super compelling kind of like quote unquote protagonist, I think. She is the first character we see on her dragon in the opening scene. And I think getting a sense of all of the ways that she's interacting with these different people is really interesting. But speaking of that scene that you mentioned, that line when she's like, I just want to ride dragons and eat cake, I thought was super fun, partly because you can tell that she's

kind of a carefree kid in a lot of ways, even though obviously that shifts a lot over the course of this episode. But she also, like, isn't hella interested in being on the throne, at least at this point in the story, which is a really interesting place to start narratively, I think. Yeah, that's a great line to pull out because...

it's as deep as you want it to be. On the one hand, you know, here is a teenager saying, I wish I could do teenage stuff, right? Which we get it, you know, on a deeper level for people who've read the books and know this backstory, it's,

Kind of tragic because the Targaryens marry off when they're like 12, 13. They never get it. They never that is not a thing that any of them ever get to revel in. So as frivolous as it seems, it's actually really heartbreaking to hear a character say, man, I wish I had a childhood. And then you learn about what it means to be a Targaryen, what it means to be a young noble in this world.

Yeah. Well, and the way that scene concludes to where you learn that Rhaenyra actually does know everything that Alicent is trying to get her to remember. Princess Nymeria led her Rhoynar across the Narrow Sea on 10,000 ships to flee their Valyrian pursuits. She took Lord Morsmartell of Dorne to husband and burned her own fleet of sunspear to show her people that they were finished running. What are you doing? Do you remember?

but she's just playing it cool about it, I think is also kind of an interesting completion of that circle because it's like, no, she is paying attention. She does know what's required of her, but she's not going to give it to you the first time you ask, kind of, you know? The subject that they are talking about is really interesting as well because Nymeria is one of the female heroes of history in this world and was a pivotal figure in...

kind of creating the culture of Dorne, a place where women are actually really elevated. So here they are discussing like an important female hero in Westeros while also ruining the fact that

I wish we could just be like young kids without all this weight on us. It's just one example of like how well this pilot deploys exposition. Yeah, I thought so, too. I also really liked one of the earlier scenes where Rhaenyra finds out Daemon's in town.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And her dad, the king, doesn't know yet. No one knows. Right, and it sets up a really interesting dynamic because obviously these two are actually pretty close. I brought you something. It's for Lirin's deal. Now, you and I both own a small piece of our ancestry.

The fact that they're buddies, I think, is really interesting. And the fact that the first scene you see with Matt Smith, he's literally sitting on the Iron Throne. A shocking scene for Sir Harold Westerling, Princess Rhaenyra's direct Kingsguard bodyguard, right? And I think you nailed something really important. Prince Daemon, again, like, there's so much richness of meaning in that one scene and the way all these characters react, right? Prince Daemon is archaic.

arguably the most famous living person in this realm. Like his feats, the things he does are spoken about like he is a celebrity and he is able to sneak into the capital city, move around and then get into the castle without anybody noticing him or knowing that he is there. And that is a thing that,

that alarms his foes that's alarming to them interesting yeah i could see that well and it's interesting to me too that like he can sneak in and the first person he wants to see is rain era right his family we get that from that's great i think that's really fascinating i love their rapport i have a feeling it's going to change a lot over the course of the season but there were a couple really interesting moments between them where it was just like oh this is fun to watch these two interact and

Another scene I liked in terms of exposition was the first small council scene, right? Yeah. You get everything there. Yes, you do. We break in in the middle of dialogue, King Viserys telling a butthole joke. So I said to him, well, I believe you might be looking up the wrong end. Then we get Lord Lyman Beesbury, the master of coin, being like, hey, Prince Daemon's spending too much money. Yes, yes. Right?

Well, and it's like Master of Coin is worried about money. It's like, okay, great. I get who that is. We understand who this is. Then we get Sir Corlys Velaryon, Master of Ships, being like, hey, ship stuff. There's some pirates. Yeah, and the triarchy is messing with the pirates and that's on water. And P.S., that is my realm. And then we get to the Hand of the King who just basically mirrors what he thinks about

The king wants when he says, hey, guess what? The king heard you talk about the pirates, Corlys, and now he doesn't want to talk about it anymore. So if he wants to talk about it later, he'll come to you.

And Viserys just kind of like goes, yeah, that's Otto Hightower, my Hand of the King. He just spoke with my voice. You get all of that in that one scene. It's so cool. And you get that Rhaenyra is allowed in the room, but only as a cupbearer, which I also thought was fascinating, you know, because it's like, sure, you can be here and we expect you to be on time. However, you're here to make sure that we're not thirsty. And to your point, exposition like this, right? It's bad when you notice it and when you don't notice it.

It's great. Then you feel clever. You feel clever because, wow, you're learning so much. You didn't even understand you were learning it. That's what's so cool about these scenes. Yeah, it was super fun. So what were some of the other relationships that you really enjoyed kind of seeing play out in this first episode? We talked about Rainier and Allison, Rainier and Damon. Should we just go through all of Rainier's vibes? We could start there. Yeah, let's start with like the first relationship.

relationships we see, Rhaenyra and her dragon, and then Rhaenyra and Ser Harold Westerling, her Kingsguard. Yeah, he seems sweet. He seems sweet, but very surly. There's that moment when he says, I am relieved. Every time that golden beast brings you back unspoiled, saves my head from a spike. And it just shows you the stakes for all these people. You know, Princess Rhaenyra is out having a joyride, whereas Ser Harold is like, man,

I just really hope nothing bad happens because if it does, I'm in trouble, which is a thing. When you take that oath, there is a school of thought that says if the person you are charged with protecting and yes, they are guarding the king with the king, then clearly task Sir Harold to guard his daughter.

If you fail in that mission, you shouldn't survive the person you failed to protect. So that's a big deal. That's a big deal, Tim. Any other relationships with Rhaenyra that stuck out to you? Well, I mean, God, Rhaenyra and her mother, right? I mean, oh my God, that was heartbreaking. That, yeah, there wasn't a lot with her, obviously. But, you know, I mean, that first scene we see with her mother, she's super pregnant. She refers to her and her daughter's wombs as royal and then says, you know, essentially like giving birth is going to be our battlefield. Yeah. Which is...

you know, devastatingly foreshadowing in this first episode. I definitely think, and I wasn't mad about it, but, you know, it was one of those, like, the first time Viserys mentions he thinks he's gonna have a son, it's like, "Oh, this isn't gonna go well at all." You know, like, I thought the seeds were planted really nicely to know that things weren't gonna turn out the way anyone was expecting them to. Because we open with Princess Rhaenyra, we see her with Alicent,

We see that bond. We see them walk through the castle. We see all the courtiers and various people. And then when she gets to Queen Emma, there's that, there's something about, you know, the bond of being a woman in this world. They share it. Queen Emma and Princess Rhaenyra share it where Princess Rhaenyra is like,

I'm checking on you. You know, everybody's dealing with the tournament that's coming and all the nobles who are coming and all these other like machinations and political stuff. How are you? Are you good? Like, yes, you are essentially a baby factory. Yeah.

But how are you? How is it sitting with you? How are you feeling? How are you doing? And the answer is stiff upper lip, but really not that great. You know? Yeah. Well, and I think speaking of scenes that do a really nice job of explaining where we're at without being too awkward about it is when Emma's talking to Viserys about how hard it has been for her to conceive and to produce an heir. I know it is my duty to provide you an heir.

And I'm sorry if I have failed you in that I am, but I've mourned all the dead children like her. Oh, my God. Her entire storyline that whole episode. I mean, you could argue she stole the show. It was phenomenal. It was also just very well depicted, the whole thing. It was so intense. That was just, like, soul-shattering. Because on the one hand, when she apologizes for not producing... It's like, honey, that's not your fault. But it is so heartbreaking because...

You know, as far as the realm is concerned, that's her one and only job is to do that, is to produce this era so the realm can be stable. And clearly King Viserys is so laser focused on the belief that he is having a son. He believes it's going to happen. He had this dream that he saw their son born with Aegon's Iron Crown and the Dragon's Roar. And it's definitely going to happen. And she, meanwhile, is trying to communicate, hey, Viserys.

I'm a little freaked out. I'm a little worried. Like, I don't want to do this again. And in fact, this is it. Like, no more. And he is just sky high in the clouds at the prospect of his baby boy being born. And that is hard to watch. What did you feel watching that?

I think, I mean, especially, I want to tip my hat to the editors of this episode, too, because especially when we see kind of the intertwining of the scenes of the tournament and the childbirth...

that was shocking. The way actually seeing Emma in that room when they chug her down to start cutting. The surprise on her face and confusion. Oh my God, the whole thing and him telling her he loves her and trying not to get, it was very interesting having it juxtaposed with

another version of gore and violence because that room was so much more emotionally shocking to me than and like the stuff on the horses was filmed super well those were interesting little battle scenes but like oh my god that room my

My nails dug into my palms. Yeah. I want to jump back to that earlier conversation with King Viserys and Queen Emond the Bath. These moments where you get an intimate view of Targaryen family life, the one they hide from everyone else, the one they hide from their courtiers, from the hand of the king, from everybody that's even the closest circle to them. This is just the family stuff.

And there's a really interesting moment where Queen Emma says that Rhaenyra, jokingly maybe, is already predicting that it's not a son, that it's a daughter. Oh, right. And then she's already taken to calling the daughter Visenya. That's a very interesting choice. And then King Viserys then says... This family already has its Visenya. That's the thing that's probably going to be lost on people who haven't read the books. And it's really fascinating because Visenya was one of...

Aegon the Conqueror's queen wives. And it was kind of the most troublesome one. She would go on to be the mother of King Maegor the Cruel, who they also reference in this episode. They do. I remember that. Unquestionably the worst king in Targaryen history and certainly to this point in Targaryen history and was...

a person who was not dependable in a way that Daemon Targaryen is also not dependable. And that's clearly the thing that King Viserys is saying is like, we already have one of those. And it's just so much trouble dealing with that, dealing with those machinations, the scheming, the unpredictability, the disappearing for long periods of time and potentially like the quest for the throne. So that was a really interesting thing.

intimate moment between a husband and wife and a thing that I think King Viserys surely would not say to anybody else in his family except his wife. Yeah. So obviously we're going to talk more about Daemon, but first speaking of sort of like interior Targaryen moments, we must make mention, I think, of that scene where Viserys points out that he's got that wound from sitting on the throne. Oh yeah. Is it healing? We should lead you to Grand Maiden. It's a wound that refuses to heal, Grand Maester.

Because the symbolism of that, obviously, is pretty significant. But it's also, you know, I mean, just seeing the weakness and who he's willing to acknowledge that in front of, I thought was another really interesting scene. Yeah, I thought so, too. The Grand Maesters don't know what it is. Yeah. Well, I mean, you're sitting on a dirty, rusty, bacteria-ridden floor.

chair of swords, guess what? Stuff like this might happen. Yeah, for me, what was most fascinating was Otto's clear concern. The last thing Otto wants is to signal to the realm that the king is weak because, you know, it's this really...

deadly irony that on the one hand, Aegon forged a chair of swords. But on the other hand, if the person sitting on that chair gets cut, the way the realm is going to interpret it, as you said, is, oh, that's a bad sign. The chair doesn't like that person. That bodes ill. That means blood. That means war. So if anybody was to find out about this,

The rumor network, you know, Westeros TMZ would immediately kick into high gear. Iron Throne does not like King. Big problem. You know, and this is a thing that is the second king of the Targaryen reign after Aegon was King Aenys. A-E-N-Y-S. Thank you for that.

Specification. Aeneas, his problem was weakness. And that led to Maegor. And so everybody is really, really, really laser focused on don't communicate weakness. Don't communicate weakness. Don't let anybody see you're weak. What did you think of that scene?

Well, really, what I thought of what you just said is I would like to put in an official vote for a Game of Thrones spinoff that is Westeros TMZ. We need it. Because that sounds fun. We mentioned Otto. Let's talk about Otto Hightower and his daughter, Alison. Yes. We get...

some really focused moments of Otto. What did you think of Sir Otto of House Hightower? That's a great question. I mean, a king's hand, that's a complicated role, as I think a lot of us know from Game of Thrones. The scene with Otto that I found the most telling was, it's after the death of Emma and the baby, and it's when Alicent walks into the rooms with him. How is his grace? Very low, which is why I sent for you.

I thought you might go to him, offer him comfort. At first, he seems really comforting. You know, he gets up, he gives her a hug, he asks her how she's doing, he asks her how Rhaenyra is. And you think, oh, this is nice. You know, like, he realizes that her mother has died not that long ago. Like, this must be really hard for her. He's trying to be present.

But then it ends up with him, like, walking back to his desk and sitting back down and saying, you need to check on the king and you need to put on one of your mother's dresses to do it. Which is essentially, yeah, like... Put on a hot outfit. Yeah. Grown up as you can and, like, comfort this guy because guess what? Season's open, you know? That is such a telling scene. And I would add to it the beginning of it, which is...

The queen has passed. There is an acrimonious small council meeting in which Otto, the funeral pyre, not even extinguished. Literally the funeral, as far as we know, happened that afternoon. This is the evening. Yeah. Serato is immediately like, let's talk succession. Let's talk about it. Let's hash it out. This turns into a big argument and the king storms out, obviously not wanting to have this discussion again.

on the ashes of his family members. Then we see Otto write a letter, which we don't know the contents of, and have it sent to Old Town, which is his seat of power. That's where the high towers are from, from Old Town. And then here's his daughter comes in. He sends her into the king's room. First of all, what's in the letter? I would argue that those things are connected because

And I would also argue that if we look at everything that Otto has done in this episode, one, he stymies Corliss when Corliss wants to talk about the triarchy and the triarchy warring on the front doorstep of the realm. Right. He doesn't want to talk about it. He's like, don't worry about it. You heard the king cleaning up pirates is great. So they're doing it. We don't have to do it. Let's not talk about it. Forget it. He then talks against Prince Damon and what he's doing with the watch. Yeah. I, I,

think that if you put all those things together, whatever is in that letter is something that will, one, bedevil his foes, namely Prince Daemon and probably Ser Corlys, and will raise his family, namely Alicent Hightower. So we're seeing the Hand of the King immediately scheming, despite the fact that he has presented himself as

as king viserys has said to his brother as the most loyal servant of the throne is he i don't know what do you think is he oh he seems super schemey to me like you can tell he's like the wheels are turning with that guy you know and like he's always doing the math on like how he can get ahead and so yeah i don't know i mean i also like did you pick up on vibes between alicent and damon

Because he did not seem happy about that. But it definitely, you know, I mean, Damon asked for her... Her favor. Yeah, it's attorney. Yes, her favor. Now, I'm fairly certain I can win these games, Lady Allison. Having your favor would all but assure it.

You know, it's very interesting. Prince Damon understands that Otto Hightower does not like him. They have that meeting. Oh, sure. So you think it's just a direct dig? Yeah, it's just a direct dig. Because Alison didn't seem mad about it, I will say. She's like, oh, sure, Matt Smith. Why would she be? Yeah.

Listen, at the previous small council meeting after Prince Damon's gold cloaks dismembered and killed multiple people in the city, Prince Damon then goes at Otto like, hey, your wife is dead. Do you want mine? Yeah. My wife in the veil. Maybe you want her. Yeah. To the point that the king has to be like, hey, you know that he's just trolling you. Just don't worry about it. Then at the later air tourney.

What does he do? He picks out Otto's son and cripples him in front of everybody. Yeah, that was rough. And then goes up to the royal box and is like, hey, Alison, what's up? Let me get your favor with, you know, like a not too subtle like smirk at Otto. This is all like...

This is all middle fingers to Otto Hightower. That makes a lot of sense. So speaking of Alison and Otto and going to talk to the king, can I tell you about my like completely out of the blue ridiculous prediction that I have? Yes. Okay. So, you know, the king, he's like, you know, he's mourning. He's like in his PJs. He's like working on something at this table. Right. Right.

I think that miniature ends up being what's in the Game of Thrones credit scene in the other show in the future times. It's insane. It's completely unfounded. Whoa. But I feel like that's what that is. That is great. Wouldn't that be cool? Wouldn't that be a fun, like, nod to all the nerds? That is a really cool... It's ridiculous. Now...

This just seems to be one location that we're seeing that he's working on. Right. I love this idea that he's also worked on like other. He's also worked on Winterfell. He's also got the mail. Yeah. That is really. I love that. I mean, we'll see. We'll see. One relationship that I think is worth further mention is Kristen Cole and everyone who is enamored with him at the heiress tourney. Yes.

So I thought this was really interesting because he takes off his helmet, right? And he kind of like shakes out his beautiful brunette look. And then Allison is like, God, he's Dornish. Yeah. So this is interesting because this is a bit of a change. In the books, he's a Stormlander.

of House Dundarian, the same kind of lineage which Sir Harold Westerling lays out, bastard son of the steward of House Dundarian. But to say that he's Dornish, I think it does two things. I think that change does two things. One, it brings Dorn into our story, which is going to be important for filling out what Dorn means to the realm in particular. And two, it allows us to eventually engage with Dornish culture, which is unique. And I think it's important because at this point in time,

what is it, like 110, 111-ish AC after conquest. Dorne is not even fully part of the realm. Aegon the Conqueror had a long and bloody war against Dorne, lasted almost 10 years. He lost his queen sister Rhaenya in that war. She died under unknown circumstances. And after that, the realm basically just said, okay,

You can have something like autonomy and we can figure out what your actual role within the realm is later. And so that has actually not been fully nailed down. Dorne would not become fully part of the realm until 150 something. So the fact that Kristen is here would be really interesting slash fascinating to all the people here. Like, wow, adornment is part of this. That's so cool.

Huh. That's awesome. That's helpful context for sure. I have a Damon question for you. Sure. Do you think it's unfair for him to be part of the tourney? In the sense that nobody will really go at him? Yeah. Unlike Robert Baratheon back in Game of Thrones days? Yeah. I think you're right in that it is inherently unfair. That said, as we saw...

There are certain very brave individuals who do not shirk from kind of like showing off and going right at him. But yeah, I think to your point, listen, in Game of Thrones, when King Robert tries to enter the tournament, Eddard Stark has to be like, what are you doing? Nobody's going to touch you. You're the king. Right. So I think that is, you know, it's unfair, but it's also a great opportunity for Sir Criston Cole to go look at who I'm about to dunk on the prince.

I did think Damon's swagger in that scene too was also very fun. Like, I just think about Matt Smith having played the doctor for so long and then like just getting to be this baddie and like having fun strutting around these sets. Like, it's really fun to see. That's cool.

While we're talking about Damon, should we talk about Damon and just like his hangers on? They didn't mention her name, but he's got that paramour who, uh, Misaria. Yeah, who gave him the pep talk. She's from, so she's like, Hey, don't worry about it. You're still here. You're still good. Nobody can forget about you. Prince Damon, what are you talking about? We'll have sex next time. It's cool. Like, Hey, like, can we try a three-way? Will that take your mind off of it? No. No.

well, listen, don't worry about it. Like what a life of the flesh Damon leads. But I also love that.

None of that satiates him. Like there's that moment before he makes that terrible speech where he's sad. He's alone in that room full of people fucking. Absolutely alone. And none of that can make him feel better. And that's why he makes this really terrible decision to be like, I've got this image of the prince of the city to uphold. So here I am. I'm going to make this.

speech that shows confidence and swagger. King and council have long ruled my position as next in line for the throne. But dream and pray as they all might, it seems I'm not so easily replaced. And it's a terrible idea. Very, very lonely guy, Daemon Targaryen. Yeah, yeah, that does come through pretty strongly. Are there other relationships you want to talk to or talk about?

It feels like this is one of the hinge points, clearly, of our story. King Viserys and his now-named heir, Princess Rhaenyra. Yeah, yeah, that's a big one for sure. Yeah, what struck you about their relationship? Oh, gosh. Well, I mean, we kind of talked around some of it, I think. Like, the fact that she's allowed in these meetings, but she's cupbearer, you know. He, like, chastises her a little for being on her dragon, but he generally seems pretty entertained by her as well, I think. Yeah.

I also think, you know, speaking of her relationship with not only Viserys, but also Daemon, that moment at the funeral is super intense because it's Daemon who steps up to her and talks to her and encourages her to do what needs to happen in a way that her father just can't.

And she is taking on the weight of this grief because her dad's not showing up for her. And I just think that was a really intense and telling moment for all of those relationships, you know? Yeah, it's interesting because he seems like a good dad. I think this is one of the things that I kept thinking about was what a different...

picture of a ruler this is than Game of Thrones. You know, Robert was incompetent. Joffrey was evil. The rest of them were some combination of incompetent and evil. And everybody else was like warped by this experience. Whereas King Viserys...

He stands by his family, loving to his daughter. Yeah. Knows the history. Knows the history. Takes other people's advice. Absolutely. Like, it's so deliberative and collaborative in a way that we haven't seen. Includes his daughter, despite the fact that there is... No precedent. Yeah, absolutely. A steel ceiling over how high she can rise, you know? And when he finally...

Names her the air. He does it. I think this was really important because it's the thing that makes him kind of not an asshole is he does it reluctantly because he understands one that it's a shitty job. It's a job you shouldn't want. You think you want it. You don't. You don't want this job. I got cuts all over my back that won't heal, among many other things and problems.

But also he understands that like it's going to be an uphill battle because there are deeply ingrained biases in this realm that are going to keep you from having a peaceful reign. And so I am so sorry to do this to you, but I have to name you. I thought that was deeply sad and shows that he's not –

As maybe you might have thought from his conversations with Queen Emma in the bath, he's not just like oblivious to what this all means. He understands it. What scene to you like really showed what their relationship is like? Is there anyone that stood out to you? Well, I think what you're talking about was a really important scene also because he essentially apologizes to her for underestimating her. Yeah. As a potential heir. Yeah.

Which I think is really interesting because it speaks to his inability to even, you know, imagine a world where she could be queen. But then also to realize that like she is showing up. She might be late. She might have dragon stank on her, but like she's showing up and she knows her stuff actually. So I thought that apology...

was really interesting. And yeah, I mean, it's also entirely possible that he could have been a good father and king until now, but this horrific thing just happened. Like, he had to witness this, right? Yeah.

He had to be there. He had to make the call. Right. He had to, like, make that choice and say, yeah, OK, my wife's got to go for a lottery ticket chance at having a living child that I don't even know if it's a son. The maesters are out here being like, we can't tell, man. Like, we don't know. Yeah, that's enough to break you, you know? I mean, yeah, that'll do it. There's a moment in that conversation in the crypt under Balerion's skull, which I think book readers and show watchers alike are really going to be talking about this.

Our histories. They tell us that Aegon looked across the Blackwater from Dragonstone, saw a rich land ripe for the capture. But ambition alone is not what drove him to conquest. It was a dream. This is something really, really cool. And it is a new understanding of why Aegon came over and invaded from Dragonstone and conquered the realm. Why did he do it? Because of this dream that he had that a Targaryen

had to sit on the throne when eventually a long winter appears. That only a Targaryen on the throne is the thing that will forestall the apocalypse.

And that since the time of Aegon, this secret has been handed down from ruler to heir. One, that is incredible. That is new. That is so cool. What an incredible secret. Two, I got to know how this exactly worked because, again, in the histories of Targaryen succession, there's been a lot of like dead ends. Yeah.

So like... A lot of duds. A lot of kids that didn't make it. A lot of usurping. Maegor notably kind of like seized it from his nephew. So how does that work? Do they all get the secret? There's so much more to unpack here, but that...

him sharing that was huge on many, many, many different levels. Yeah. Well, and I think it also speaks to what I thought this episode did really well as a spinoff, which is it gave Thrones fans just enough familiar things to get really excited, you know? And I think the sets, I think, you know, the tourney, the fact that there is a king's hand, the gold cloaks, their, you know, mention of Baratheons, mention of Starks,

the tits, the dragons, you know, the maesters. But I think that like for that to really conclude that episode is just like, ah,

okay, like, let's do this. Yeah, I'm ready for episode two. I can't wait for it. Yeah, of course. Okay, so before we do our official death count, is there anything else you think as a book reader that might add some extra contextual understanding for those of us, obviously without spoiling anything? Oh, obviously. So the Great Council of 101 where old King Jaehaerys had the realm... Which we see in like the beginning, beginning of this episode. Yeah, had the realm vote on who the successor would be.

That took place at Harrenhal, which is the largest castle in the realm by far. And it took place there because this was the largest gathering to that point. You need a big venue. Let me research this quickly. But I think in Westerosi history, this is the largest gathering. And I should add that so tournaments, which we also see in this episode, tournaments act as de facto councils because, you know, nobles send ravens and that's how they talk to each other. But raven messages can be intercepted and can be read, right?

A lot of scheming happens at tournaments. I'll just say that because nobles don't get together in large numbers that often. As we heard Lord Strong, the master of law, say, hey, everybody's already heading here if you're thinking about delaying the tournament. Right, right. When nobles get together, they talk and they talk about a lot of stuff and they talk about the succession and they talk about how you're doing and can I help you in any way? There was like a lot of hot goss. A lot of hot goss. Who's pregnant? Who's hiding it? Et cetera. Yeah. So just keep that in mind.

Tournaments are de facto councils because it's a way for the nobility to scheme without anybody kind of knowing what they're scheming about. And then one more thing, the triarchy. So the triarchy is a gathering of three free cities from Essos who just kind of get together and try and conquer stuff. That's all you really need to know about that. That'll be a big deal. And is that pirate related? That is pirate related. That's when that came up, right?

So the Triarchy is, as Corlys lays out, they're warring against pirates who are active on the Stepstones, which are a group of islands on the toe, I guess you'd say, of Westeros that lead to Essos. And why Corlys is worried about this is, hey, the Triarchy seem like they're kind of coming into our area. Does that bother anybody else? Okay. So watch out for that. The Triarchy's ambitions are something that consistently impact...

Westeros' history over the decades and years. Interesting. And where are we in our death count for this episode? So, two obvious deaths. Yeah, obviously. R.I.P. and Prince Balon.

The knight who gets his face fully smashed in by a mace and gets dragged off in a pool of brains and blood. Yep, that was an exciting moment. RIP to him. Yep, good credit. Beheaded guy? Mm-hmm. The guy that Prince Daemon beheaded with Dark Sister, the famed Valyrian steel sword of Queen Visenya? That guy is dead? And then potentially, unclear if he does bleed out, but guy who got castrated...

Probably dead. So that's like, we'll keep it to four. Okay. There's a heavy ish. Right. Three definite deads, one probable dead. And then you got to assume that in that two cartloads of body parts, there are also other deads. So let's put it anywhere from three to say 15, but a hard three. A hard three.

I mean, death is a spectrum, right? As we know from Monty Python and Princess Bride. R.I.P. to our fallen. R.I.P.

All right, Jason, now is the time where we're going to listen to an interview from someone who was intricately involved with the show. This is another one of the interviews you got to do when you were at Comic-Con. I swear to God, I'm going to get myself in one of these interviews one of these days. So let's hear this interview. This is with Ryan Condal, who's the co-showrunner and executive producer of House of the Dragon.

Delighted to be sitting here now with Ryan Condal. Ryan is a seasoned showrunner and writer. You may recognize his work from the series Colony, which I think was ahead of its time. The film Rampage, based on my favorite coin-operated video game. He is the co-host of the podcast What Dreams Are Made Of. And today, of course, we're talking about his work as co-showrunner, EP, and writer of the new HBO original series House of the Dragon. Ryan, welcome to the official Game of Thrones podcast. Thanks.

Thank you. Thank you. I think Rampage is also ahead of its time, to be fair. Certainly as a multiplayer game and as a movie, I agree with you. Yeah. So you're a fan of the books. At what point did you know, as you were reading the Song of Ice and Fire books by George R. R. Martin, did you know that it had hooked you? I mean, it happened pretty quickly. It was the summer of

right before Lord of the Rings hit theaters. And I was a big Tolkien nerd. And somebody said to me at some point, well, if you love Tolkien and you want something a little bit more kind of grown up and adult. And I said, well, what's more grown up and adult than Lord of the Rings? And they handed me the first book, the paperback for Game of Thrones. And I remember I was sitting, I used to, this is dating myself here, but back in the before day, before smartphones and cell phones, I used to take

paperback books into movie theaters with me. I don't remember what movie I went to, but I was sitting there reading the first chapter where they encounter where Waymar Royce and his men of the Night's Watch encounter the White Walkers for the first time. And I just, I loved how

It was definitely a fantasy book, but you could tell that this didn't happen every day in this world. And they were just as scared as you would be the reader encountering the undead in the cold forest. And it just really hooked me. I mean, I think I read that book inside of a week. So that was it.

Westeros has an unbelievably rich history. I think one of the things that set this series apart is just the world building. You're talking about 10,000 years of fictional history, so many characters, so many places to explore. Why House of the Dragon? Why the second century of Targaryen rule in Westeros?

Well, that was sort of chosen for me. When I got involved with the project, HBO had done this round of development on all these spinoffs that they were trying. And I think rightfully so, they were developing a bunch of things to see what was going to take root and what was going to hook in the executives over there and get people interested. And I think smartly, they only did two kind of from the Targaryen history. And the first was Aegon's Conquest. And then the second was this particular period in

in the Targaryen history, the Dance of the Dragons, famously the most bloody civil war ever fought on the continent. But that had already done a little bit of development in the cycle. So when George brought it to me, it was essentially like, this is the one, this is the one I want you to do. This is the chosen piece of history. So the question was, where do you drop people in? And I think that was the thing that he and I actually debated the most, whereas the time period within the Targaryen dynasty, that was the one that he wanted to tell first because he felt like that had the most resonance with the original series. And that was the consequence of this

story is why eventually Daenerys has no kingdom left to rule. I was struck by something you said, which is your relationship with George. And I wanted to ask because this is every, you know, a Song of Ice and Fire fan's dream is send an email to George and he answers. Talk about your relationship with George, how that started. It was, I always say it was a bit of light fan stalking. Yeah.

I had been working as a screenwriter for probably five or six years and had been kind of stumbling around in the feature film development world. And I worked. I worked every year. You know, I was earning a good living and just nothing was getting made. Sure. And I had signed up with new agents and they got me to go over and try TV.

And it was always something that I really liked and was interested in, but I just knew nothing about it. And that whole world, it seemed like a whole new thing I had to learn. But the very first pilot I wrote got greenlit and sent into production. And it just happened to drop us in Santa Fe, which was Georgia's backyard. It was the supernatural Western. So it was the perfect place to go shoot the thing. As soon as they said Santa Fe, my radar went up because I was like, I know one person who lives in Santa Fe. And he happened to be, happened to share an agency. And I said, hey,

George R.R. Martin lives in Santa Fe. I'm going to be there for like a long time. Can I buy him dinner while I'm there? And they reached out and he was fascinated that this writer was coming to town and making a pilot in Santa Fe because there wasn't a ton of TV production there yet. Most of it was still in Albuquerque. So he jumped all over it and we went out and I had dinner with him. He signed my book. We chatted for hours and then he came to set and he like hung out on set with us and people were walking by going, is that George R.R. Martin?

It was amazing. So we just, you know, kicked up a friendship and stayed in touch. And it was really nice because he's a huge influence on me, not only as a science fiction fantasy fan, but also as a writer. I just learned a lot from him and from reading his books and breaking down and studying how he approached big genre storytelling. That's amazing. You are a co-showrunner alongside director Miguel Sapochnik, who I think many people are familiar with his work on Game of Thrones. How did that partnership and dynamic, how does it work?

You know, I always joke that it's a bit of a throuple. It started with George and I because we did probably about a year of development just on the writing work before HBO started making moves and, you know, looking for a director and things like that. But I had known Miguel from years past because we similarly, our agents introduced us. So we kicked up a relationship too. And I knew his work certainly from Thrones because obviously I was a huge fan. I'd seen all that stuff. And I was just really excited to meet him. I thought he was a brilliant filmmaker. He is a brilliant filmmaker. Yeah.

So I kind of pursued him. And I think he was kind of charmed by the idea of coming back in a different role than he was in the original series, coming back as a co-showrunner. And George was all about it because he loved Miguel's work from the original show. So it was very organic, the way it came together. And then the interplay worked really nicely. You know, George is the creator and the sort of

the mind behind everything. Me as the protector of the lore. Miguel is the visual filmmaker who'd also produced the show previously. So he kind of knew how to keep all those giant gears running. Big Venn diagram with a big crossover in the center, but then we all do kind of different things on the outside of it. And I think it worked out pretty well. Some actors prefer to read the source material. Some don't. There's various ways to go about this. Talk about the differences in those approaches and how you arrived at the product.

Yeah, I offered it to everybody. I mean, George very nicely sent along sign books for pretty much everybody, you know, all the central cast. And that was a pretty good reason for them to crack the book. And I think they were all kind of touched by it. But I let them have their own process. Some people really wanted to dive in and know it. Others didn't want to touch it and would ask me questions sometimes because some of the actors like to be very present and just read the script in front of them and play the moments as they're happening. So I let them be. But the writers were required to read it. They weren't allowed to get out of it.

But it was fascinating to kind of see

actor by actor who decided to engage with the source material and who didn't. Were there any surprises as these really incredible actors started to embody these people, these flesh and blood people? All of them. I mean, really all of them. They're all wonderful. I mean, as I always say, it's a garage full of Ferraris. It's so exciting to write for that wonderful cast. I think the biggest surprise to me was Patty Constantine. And just because everybody else brought to life

the character on the page and dimensionalize them and certainly went in directions that you wouldn't expect. But Patty in particular, I think our take on Viserys was very close to what the book was. And Patty really wanted to have this core strength and agency. And it was really hard to define that in a king that's kind of known for his, you know,

And we did that for a reason. It's a choice because he has this burden that he's carrying and he's trying to prevent, you know, conflict and war. And that can make somebody look like a people pleaser, like very passive. But he wanted to take this real kind of I'm a Targaryen dragon approach to that. And it's no, I'm not doing this with strength. And it's hard to explain in the in between the lines. But he is a much different character than I think the one that was written on the page.

and the one certainly in Fire and Blood, but in a wonderful way. And I think just really humanized the character and brought deep pathos to it.

Let's dive into King Viserys. Obviously the contrast between himself and his brother Daemon could not be more dramatic. How did these characters drive themselves to the place where we find them in the story? What is that personality conflict like? And a question I've thought about a lot, is there any personality type that would make the ideal ruler for Westeros? You know, you mentioned Viserys maybe a little too passive, Daemon a little too crazy, but

What are the qualities of the perfect ruler of Westeros? I actually think King Viserys was really a great king until his wife died. And we'll see how that develops. And that's the other thing I really like about that character, I think, too. And, you know, what everybody brought to life, you know, not least of which is Paddy, is this idea of a very modern person in an archaic world.

Viserys' character is a good-hearted modern politician that's been dropped into this world where you rule with fire and blood and you pull out tongues and take heads at insults. And you don't sit at your council table and ask the council what they're thinking. You tell them what they're going to do. But I think he's a very democratic ruler and I think it fits very well. I mean, Jaehaerys was always the archetype, but I think because we only know what was written about him

We haven't seen him rule. And certainly the great council we see in the beginning of the pilot was an attempt by a man to set a succession order for the future so that conflict would be avoided. He was very forward-looking in that sense. So I think that made him a great king. But in terms of the other kings that we've seen on screen rule Westeros, I think Viserys did a pretty damn good job. Let's talk about that birth scene, Queen Emma. How'd you approach that? And can you set up a little bit what the stakes for the realm are in that moment?

Yeah, it was a lot. I mean, that was certainly a lot. And all credit to Sean Brooke, who played Emma wonderfully. She was on set for like five days, but left this amazing impact on everybody on the crew. It was very early in the shoot, too, and just really stayed with everybody. And I saw her a few months after that. And just it was still so shocking. I think the performance that she put on and it's really affecting to see and to see her. And you're only with her for a short time on screen, but that's exactly what we needed to

that seemed to be. So I think a lot of that was actually Miguel visualizing what that was going to look like. I think the way it was scripted was much more in Viserys's point of view, the sense that something horrible is happening kind of off screen. Miguel correctly really wanted to get in there and show this experience of the violence of childbirth. And that will be actually a running theme

across the season is this idea of the different looks and experiences that women can have in childbirth. Because as Emma says to Rhaenyra in the pilot, you know, the childbed is our battlefield. That is the violence that women experience in this world while men ride off to war because they have to bring forth heirs and propagate the line. And in this time, pregnancy and birth are very dangerous things.

But the visualization of it and the performance and all that, I mean, that was all Miguel and his, you know, his wonderful talents pulling that together and Patty and Sean working together in that scene. And it's really incredible. I think it really shocked HBO the first time they saw it. Everybody had a very visceral response. I mean, they were really moved. I mean, you saw tears in the theater. Yeah.

And we didn't even show the complete pilot because we were kind of cutting sequences together. And that was one of the early sequences that we had. To me, that's the hook that the series kind of turns on. And as you accurately pointed out, there are huge things at stake for the realm because a monarchy, a feudal system like this loves stability, wants stability, needs stability. And that stability is in that little boy that's born. And as long as there's a healthy male heir, the realm is at peace. But without that, the realm is in chaos and conflict, wondering...

What happens if King Viserys takes a bad spill down the stairs? Are we left with Daemon? Is there going to be a war? And it just puts everybody on edge. So that boy was that sense of peace and stability. And unfortunately, we lost both him and his mother and Viserys' chance to create new heirs. Steve Toussaint, who plays Corlys Velaryon, has said that House of the Dragon is a more political show than Game of Thrones. Whether you agree or disagree, I was struck by what you were saying earlier.

you know, if the stability of the realm is embodied in this child and the government is as well, the personal becomes very political at that point. How does that magnify these kind of small feuds, small insults? How does that magnify these things into what we see taking place across the continent? Yeah, I mean, I think I understand what Steve was saying. I think, I mean, I think the original Game of Thrones is highly political.

But I think the interesting thing is about this show versus the original is that it's all happening under one roof within this family and the moves that they're making against each other and within because the Targaryens are so powerful in this period that it all kind of rests with them. And I think that's sort of what Steve was getting at. And also this idea of the strength and the iron fist of the patriarchy and, you know, willing primogeniture and the rule by the firstborn son into existence at all costs, you know, supplanting Rhaenys of the Great Council.

resisting the idea of Rhaenyra, who's actually, we can tell, I think, in the first story, very equipped to learn at the foot of her father and probably grow into be a powerful great sovereign of her own, but people unwilling to open the door to the woman. So I think that makes the machinations there very political, and political in a modern sense. I couldn't help but wonder when Viserys finally chooses Rhaenyra,

Is he backed into a corner at that moment? Had he been trying to kind of prepare the ground for the possibility that this could happen? What is his feeling when he does that? Yeah, I mean, I think this is something that certainly has been in the back of Viserys' mind for a long time. Viserys has a very complicated relationship with his brother. He deeply loves him, but he loves Viserys

the idea that Daemon will change and be somebody else. And Daemon is not a person who changes. And Daemon also desperately loves his brother. I mean, they have this really kind of beautiful, conflicted, complicated relationship. And Daemon just wants his brother to let him in and to be at his side. Everybody thinks that Daemon, you know, wants the throne and wants to take it from Viserys. He wants to be at Viserys' side. He really wants to be Viserys' hand.

But Viserys doesn't trust him because of the way we see him act. A little untrustworthy of a fellow. So it's this argument of why don't you trust me? And it's like, well, because of the things you do. And he's like, well, I do the things that I do because you don't trust me. So it's this really, again, it's a deeply conflicted

complicated relationship between the two brothers. But I think Viserys is aware the whole time. And this is why in the history, we don't really get into this in the pilot because it's not so important, but in the history, famously Viserys never officially named Daemon his heir. He was his presumed heir. So Daemon is not the Prince of Dragonstone in this time. He presumes that he's the Prince of Dragonstone, but it's really Rhaenyra when Viserys calls her a

Princess of Dragonstone at the end of the pilot, that is the first time in Viserys's reign that he has given that title to anybody. And that's a big deal. And I think that tells you a lot about it is Viserys waiting for that heir to come along and putting poor Queen Emma through these multiple stillbirths and miscarriages and pregnancies to try to get to that to protect the realm. Because once he has a son, then he just, he doesn't have to have the conversation with Daemon. He can just say, sorry, bro. You know how it works. It's my firstborn. But until he has that,

it's Damon in the eyes of most of the realm. I wonder if we could just spend a second on that, the bond you're talking about, because I think it's one of the things that absolutely shines through in the book version of this story is for all the ways that they disagree and argue and each does a thing that the other would never do. It feels like when the rubber meets the road, they love each other, period. Did you talk to the actors in terms of getting them to that place or did they find it

I think a bit of both. At the beginning of production, we did about three weeks of rehearsals with the actors. So I think we gave them a lot of that and then they went and took it and ran with it. And Matt and Patty got along famously. So they had this really, really nice kind of off-camera relationship that I think helped them develop that. And Matt really looked up to Patty as an actor. The men themselves are a similar age gap apart. So I think it just all kind of worked really beautifully.

So after the realm loses Queen Emma and then Balon, and after Daemon is returning to the Vale, we think, or he says he's going to, Viserys then shares a dream with Rhaenyra. He tells her about Aegon's dream and the Song of Ice and Fire, which foretells a dangerous winter, and of course the Targaryens and their dreams. These are very important things to this family. How important is the idea of Aegon

Aegon and what he has established, the Targaryen legacy here in Westeros to what Viserys and even Rhaenyra are trying to do with their reigns.

I think it's mission critical. And that was a little nugget detail that George gave us. And I remember when he told us about it in the architecture room that we did a million years ago when we were working out the sort of structure of what a first season would look like. And it was just such a perfect thing that he told me about. Egon had reported to have this dream. And that was the reason that he got up and went out to conquer. And a lot of that makes sense to me because he's seen as this

brutal conqueror came in. But if you read the conquest, he did it in such a way that he spared as much life as he possibly could along the way. So I always sensed there was something else to it. And this idea that doing something for the greater good and seeing that there was something bigger than all of us, a threat bigger than all of us coming,

is what makes this book a high fantasy and not just a historical fiction. And the idea that this is something that is passed on to the, the Kings that follow and they all live with it as Egon did. Egon lived in theory his whole life waiting for that thing to happen, to come out of the North. And it never did. So he told the next King and then the next King waited for it to happen. And I really liked living on this long historical timeline of,

knowing there's a prophecy, but not knowing when it's going to come true. And we, of course, as viewers of the show know when it is. And that makes it intriguing and also frustrating, I think, for those of us watching, because these people are responsible for carrying the baton to the next person and keeping things in order. And that's what made it interesting for me. It's not like Rhaenyra has to learn how to ride her dragon so she can stop the White Walkers. That's not the story at all. It's to further unite the realm to, you know, it's the reason Jaehaerys built the King's Road. It's

Until this point, every king has made the realm, well, maybe not meager, but... Well, having the red keep, you know, you can... Yeah, yeah. Very true. Very true. The construction workers maybe would argue, but it is there. Yes. The unions would have something to say. But...

This idea that everybody is responsible for leaving the world a little better than they found it and having to be a good king despite what's in front of you in that very moment and thinking about the realm as a whole. Again, it was a very modern concept to me that felt like an interesting thing to brush over this fantasy world. So that will kind of loom large over the series. And I think it's a really interesting spin on a prophecy.

One thing that I loved about Game of Thrones is how present but also distant the history of, you know, even 150 years prior to the event seemed to the people at that time. How aware of Aegon's struggles, you know, Visenya and Rhaenys' lives, the history of that, or even the Targaryen migration over to Dragonstone, how aware of those things are now?

King Viserys, our Rhaenyra, are these the people that are alive at this time? Some are very aware. I mean, Viserys in particular, you'll see as we go deeper into the season, Viserys is very, very, very committed to his Valyrian histories. He loves them and spends a lot of time thinking about them and reading them and studying them. And

and trying to pass them on. Others in the family are not as concerned with it. You know, just like in our modern life, people who read history tend to have a more worldly view of the world because they're aware of what happened before and things tend to repeat themselves if we don't learn from our past mistakes. But that idea will play a lot in the story as it unfolds.

those who have chosen to read and learn from their history and those who live more in the moment and aren't really concerned with the dusty old books on the shelves of the Red Keep. So you mentioned George as an influence on your writing, learning certain things, how to structure stories. What are some of those lessons? I mean, I think the biggest one would definitely be character. You know, George is, he's in baseball, what we call a five tool player and he can kind of do it all.

world building, visual storytelling, plot and structure. But to me, it's the character writing that he did that really, that's what makes that book leap off the shelf at you. And it's because a lot of other high fantasies have all of that stuff, the world building and the magic and all those things. But it's really the characters that make you keep coming back for more and staying in. And I think what he did so beautifully in those books is taking, he took all of the tropes from,

from high fantasy as you know it and then he turns them on their head. You know, Jamie Lannister is the Lancelot character who is actually a bad guy but then is a bad guy who loses his best sword hand and then comes back and the way he plays with things that you already know and expect is

And Tyrion as the dwarf. When you read that there's a dwarf in the room in the first 50 pages of "A Song of Ice and Fire", you're like, oh, it's elves and dwarves. But then you realize, oh no, it's actually the way we would have seen it in "Immutable Times". And the way he plays with that character and just the fact that Tyrion carries an ax to battle.

Those sorts of things that he does and also writing three-dimensional characters that have real internal lives and pathos and are very gray and have hopes and dreams that change over time. There's one thing that Jamie wants in the first book and there's something very different that Jamie wants in A Feast for Crows.

That sort of stuff and long arcs on characters, which is a great tool you learn in television writing more than feature writing. Because feature writing is sort of point A to point B. Television writing, you have to go through multiple arcs with the characters. They have to pivot and change over time. I think that was the thing that I was so stunned by and I think is the hardest thing to do and the thing I'm still learning to do. That was George's biggest lesson for me. That's great. Ryan, thanks so much for joining us. Thanks for having me.

Jason, that was delightful. Good work as always. I didn't do anything. I just asked, I just asked the pertinent questions and we got some great, really, really great answers.

You did. I really love... How did he phrase the, like, light fan stalking for how he met George R.R. Martin? That was delightful. I mean, for one, I kind of can't imagine how challenging it must be for Ryan as someone who is, like, very well aware of where this season is going to go and how good he was at talking about some of the big themes that are going to come up without spoiling anything. Yeah. Was really impressive. Yeah. I think one thing that, as a book reader...

I took a lot of heart in was one, clearly how much he knows this world and how reverent he is about it. And also like how closely he and George are collaborating on this. He talked about George telling him that Aegon had a reason for invading. And that is such a cool thing.

thing to get directly from George. It is kind of mind blowing to just have like imagining what it would have been like to be Ryan to have the creator of this world just casually drop the

here's a kind of a big animating thing that propels this vast story. That was just really cool. That was cool. So wait, you're saying that secret is not canon. I mean, it's in George's head, but that's something that no one knew until this episode. Aegon in the books, and I'm including the novels, the Song of Ice and Fire novels, the history book, and also in the associated books, is talked about a lot, but he is...

like a blank slate. We know what he does, but we don't understand basically anything about why, about his relationships with his co-queens, sisters. That's cool. Or why specifically he invaded Westeros. It's kind of before this secret was revealed that

You just kind of assume that he saw it. You know, it's like Caesar. He came, he saw, he conquered. I was going to say, yeah, I did it because it was there. Yeah. But now we're understanding there's a deeper meaning. And that really shifts the story in fascinating ways.

Huh. Very cool. I was also found that the part where he was talking about, which, you know, we were just talking about the idea of child beds as battlefields and how difficult it is to be a woman in this world. And that that's obviously something that's going to be coming up throughout that they really wanted to, to make sure to highlight in their storytelling, I think is going to be really interesting to see how that plays out. Yeah. There's a, I

I mean, it feels semi-obvious to say there's a lot of thought that went into this multi-million dollar. They worked hard. Yeah, when a company gives you multi, multi-millions of dollars to make something, it's nice that that is met with a high level of work ethic and thoughtfulness and attention to detail. And it's very, very clear, like, Ryan is just soaked in this world. And that was really cool to listen to. Yeah, I bet. So what do you think? Should we watch episode two? Should we do it? Yeah.

And that is all for this episode. Don't forget to join us again next Sunday night when we discuss House of the Dragon episode two. We're also going to chat with our younger Allison Hightower, played by Emily Carey. And we want to hear from you. We want to understand how you're feeling the series. Don't forget to leave a rating and review on your podcast player of choice. And of course, always find us on the Game of Thrones and House of the Dragon social media handles. You can find me on Twitter at NETW3RK.

And you can find me at Greta M. Johnson on both Twitter and Instagram. The official Game of Thrones podcast, House of the Dragon, is produced by HBO Max in collaboration with iHeartRadio. This podcast is hosted by Jason Concepcion. And Greta Johnson. Our executive producer is Molly Socha. Our supervising producer is Nakia Swinton. Our lead sound engineer is Matt Stillo.

This episode was edited by Sierra Spreen. Our producer is Jason Concepcion in association with Crooked Media. Special thanks to Michael Gluckstadt, Allison Cohen, Kenya Reyes, and Becky Rowe at the HBO Max podcast team, and Ashley Morton, Dana Froome, and Liz Keating at HBO Creative Marketing. ♪