House of the Dragon: Ep. 10 “The Black Queen”
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Talk of men is moot. Your cause owns a power that has not been seen in this world since the days of old Valyria. Dragons. The greens have dragons. They have three adults, by my count. We have Syrax, Caraxes, and Maelys. Your sons have Virmax, Arax, and Tyraxes. Baelor has Moondancer. Seasmoke still resides on Driftmark. Vermithor and Silverwing dwell on the Dragonmount. Dragonstone has thirteen to their four.

You know, what's the meme, Greta? The worst person you know just made a good point. I think Damon makes a good point. They have more dragons.

I am just sitting here asking you to believe that dragon count matters. Is that it? I really respect Rhaenyra's efforts in holding the realm together. I think she has a good point. Let's not, you know, who wants to preside over the ashes? Ashes and bones? That doesn't sound fun. At the same time, more dragons is more dragons. And I think you want to have more as opposed to less. And I think Daemon has a point. He does have a point. Yeah, okay, fine. Just kind of a limited burn on the Red Keep.

Just like minor carnage, light treason. Light. If we do like a like a kind of low level apocalypse as opposed to like a high level. Yeah. I mean, we're there, right? That's what's happening in our lives.

Welcome to the official Game of Thrones podcast, House of the Dragon. I'm Jason Concepcion, host of the podcast X-Ray Vision from Crooked Media. And I'm Greta Johnson, host of WBEZ's Nerd App podcast. And this is a Game of Thrones podcast for everyone, whether you're an OG Thrones watcher or you just started your journey with the HBO original series, House of the Dragon.

Greta, the dragons have called the tune and it looks like we're doing a dance of dragons. It looks like war. Obviously, we have a lot to unpack with this season finale. And thank the seven executive producer, writer, and co-showrunner of House of the Dragon, Ryan Condal, is going to join us later in this episode to round out our episode recaps. But we also want to just say, fear not, this is not the last episode of this podcast.

Starting this coming Wednesday on October 26th, we are going to shift to an every other Wednesday release schedule. And in those episodes, we're going to be breaking down the first season as a whole. We'll chat with more members of the cast and crew. And just like the first season of House of the Dragon, there will be a great many surprises along the way, of course.

But first, Jason, what did you think? That was wild. I was left with a profound sense of sadness at all the off ramps to avoid the carnage that is surely coming that were just missed, whether it was the failed rapprochement.

On the night that King Viserys ended up passing away at that last family dinner, whether it's Rhaenyra trying to chart a middle course while everyone around her is saying war, war, war. Yeah. You know, it's if Aemond didn't chase Luke. But once Vhagar eats Luke and Arax, it's that's it. We're going to war. What did you think?

Yeah. I mean, you could really say a theme for this episode is no going back, right? It's just like there's no return to it. Like everyone, this is it. The lines are drawn. It's happening. Yes. And I feel like I'm going to spend at least one therapy session talking about this episode. There's a lot in there and it is super intense.

Well, let's dive into it. The opening scene between Rhaenyra and Luke just hits so hard considering what happens at the end. And you really see that Rhaenyra...

She's a good mom. Yeah, it's interesting to think even back to that conversation we had with Geeta about, like, comparing how, like, how they are as moms between Rainier and Allison because you're right. She's very kind. You can tell that she is trying to raise these boys to be leaders, but not from a place of anger or fear, which is really beautiful and subsequently then extremely heartbreaking. Yeah, there's that exchange, that

that really resonated with me where Luke is like, "I don't want Driftmark. It should have passed on to Sir Vaemond." "We don't choose our destiny, Luke. It chooses us." "Gramps, I'll let you choose whether you be his heir." "Do you want to know the truth of it?" "I wasn't ready to be Queen of the Seven Kingdoms." "I'm not like you." "In what way, sweet boy?" "I'm not so perfect."

You know, it takes a long time when you're a kid to realize that your parents and the adults around you are just kind of scuffling through trying to figure things out on the fly because they make it look as if all of this was going according to plan. Right. And that really resonated with me, that moment where Luke looks at his mom who has been struggling with all of this. Who is far from perfect. Far from perfect. Who has done a lot of bad things and been a party to many, you know, dark plans and

basically making it look easy in the eyes of her son. That was emotional. That was a lot. And this wonderful moment between mother and son is broken up when Rhaenys arrives and brings very, very bad news from King's Landing. Princess Rhaenys, might we hope for news of Lord Corlys' recovery? Viserys is dead. I grieve this loss with you, Rhaenyra. My cousin, your father, possessed a kind heart.

Very, very bad news. Very, very cool armor shoulder pads. Really cool. Yeah. Well, and throughout this episode, I think we haven't had a chance to see what Rhaenyra would look like as queen. And I mean, you know, arguably we see this now because she is queen.

But the fact that it's so much more complicated than that and that she has so much to navigate, you really see her in a role that I think her dad would be proud of. You know? She's thinking things through. She's in an impossibly difficult situation. Yeah. But it seems like she's good at it. At least so far. And she's...

And she really is ruling, you know, in a way that her father would have. Don't you think? Daemon would view this negatively. He essentially says so at the end of this episode. But yeah, I mean, the subsequent stitching together of scenes with Daemon kind of trying to figure out the fallout from Viserys's death and what to do and how to defend Dragonstone with Rhaenyra having this...

I mean, I thought we had seen the worst of childbirth in this season so far. And I was wrong. I was very, very, very wrong. That was one of the most traumatizing things I have seen on a screen in a really long time. This whole thing is in the books where she's screaming, get out, get out, you know, to the child, get out of her. But it is really quite a thing to see. And it's, you're right, contrasted with danger.

Damon, who's... Ignoring her. Not only ignoring her, I mean, you could argue, and I'm sure he would, that, well...

the queen is laid up right now, I, as de facto her hand, need to step up and see to the defense of Dragonstone, which, again, in fairness to him, we just saw Otto plan to send a decapitation strike at Dragonstone. So these are not unfounded concerns. But you really are left with that ambiguous feeling watching Daemon where it's like,

So what is this? Is he doing his duty to his family and to the realm and as Rhaenyra's consort and husband? Or is this finally the emergence of that ambition that everybody has suspected? Now he can take control. Rhaenyra is not here. She may die. In fact, everyone knows the history of Targaryens and pregnancies. There's that moment where Ser Marbrandt,

says, do you want to talk to Maesters and see what's going on up there? You can hear the queen is in agony and he just icily says no with his eyes without saying anything. Yeah, he doesn't even give it a response. Oh, God. That's the most carnage we've seen in this season. It's interesting thinking back to our conversation with Miguel being like, I would love to hear what you think after the finale because, good Lord. And I understand the symbolism in terms of

you know, the manifestation of grief and the violence to come. I mean, there are any number of ways to read into the thematic importance of that moment, but...

I had to turn it off. Like, I couldn't watch it the first time I tried to because it was just so difficult to get through that. There's an interesting conversation, something I've been sitting with, which is why we're so comfortable watching people get decapitated and not children being born. Yeah. I don't know the answer to that, but I think, you know, this is certainly part of that broader conversation. I'm sure a lot of people will feel that way. Sure. Damon, however, takes this... He really seems to exploit this moment in a way that I'm not...

sure how I feel about it. And certainly with the things he does later in the episode, leave yourself feeling like, I don't understand this guy who I thought I understood. Yeah, it's interesting because in a lot of ways, it seems like he and Rhaenyra have actually a pretty equitable relationship. He hasn't seemed too upset about the fact that he is consort. And I think you could even argue there are moments in this episode where Rhaenyra

He knows what he needs to do to support her and that that is his role and he seems pretty okay with it. But then there are other, I mean, when he strangles her, I don't know, man. The coming war against the darkness in the north, a conqueror's dream. Viserys shared it with me when he named to me her. My brother was a slave to his omen's importance. Anything to make his feckless reign appear to have purpose. Dreams didn't make us kings. Dragons did. I never told you. Did you hear?

It was instantly clear, and I had suspected anyway, I don't know about you, that there's no way Viserys would have shared the prophecy with Daemon. No, of course not. No.

Never, ever, ever. This is, again, in no way to diminish the horrificness of grabbing his partner around the neck. But there must have been some amount of shock and betrayal that like, wait, there's a thing? And my brother never told me about this? What? Maybe at the same time, that's another scene where you're like, I don't understand Damon's reaction in this moment, even if he is shocked. I don't know where this is coming from other than...

Damon's entire reaction since the moment the news reached Dragonstone was, it's time to fight, fight, fight, fight, fight, fight. He's never wavered from that. He's preparing to fight. He can't wait to do it.

And that much is clear throughout this episode is Damon will fight. Who will he fight? Potentially his own family, but he wants to fight now. And he's very good at fighting. I mean, this is kind of his chance to do a thing that he's always been really good at, which I think makes sense to a certain extent, though I'm not sure that's a good enough reason to do it. It's interesting. I mean, they're very different situations, but it is kind of interesting to think about

what we've heard and seen of Corlys' reaction to Rhaenys being spurned, because I think there are a lot of parallels from that to Daemon and Rhaenyra and his automatic, you know, we have to fight. We have to destroy everyone who doesn't agree with us. This is the only way we can win.

when there's so much more nuance to both Rhaenys and Rhaenyra's reactions to the realities of the world and the frustration and disappointment, but the fact that this is where we are and there's only so much we can or should do. Yeah, and I think Rhaenyra quite, to her credit, is thinking about the lives that will be lost, the price of the destruction of the realm, you know, both in terms of property and human cost.

Whereas Damon, I don't think he's thinking too much about that at all, other than he's thinking about our family has swallowed insult after insult after insult from Otto Hightower and the rest. They've run us out of King's Landing. They've lied about us, even though they're telling the truth about

about who the father of Jace Lucas Joffrey are. They've been plotting against us the whole time. And now, potentially, they've killed my brother and seized the throne, which is a thing that they swore they would never do. That murder thing. Why are we sitting around...

prevaricating and wondering, oh, you know, should we send ravens? No. We have the dragons. Let's do it. You know, I think that that is where he is at. He's not thinking about, he doesn't care about the realm to the extent that he ever cared about it. No, no. And I think that's the whole thing, right? It's like for him and Corlys, it's more about their own pride and defending their names than it is necessarily about what would be best for the realm or what's realistic given the current circumstances in the realm. Yeah.

I wonder what your thoughts are on Rhaenys and Corlys because Rhaenys again, one of the things we said after last episode was like Rhaenys could have ended it right here and she has an answer for that. It is a good answer too, I thought. And I think it's a great answer and it's a very strong one which is that's not my war to start. Yeah, there's definitely a war but that's on you to start it. That's on you. If you want to start that war

go ahead and start it. I did my part, which is I came here and I brought you the news and I did not swear or feel to you to Aegon. I came and brought you the news at the risk of my life. Now, if you want to start a war, you go ahead and you do what you want with that information. That said...

Corlys, very interestingly, when he wakes from his very grievous injuries, is seemingly chastened. He's like, we're out of it. That's it. I'm apolitical. I would rather just not. We're done. I've lost my brother. There's so much that we've lost. Both kids. Yeah. Yeah. And Rhaenys, while being supportive of Rhaenyra, has not been maybe as full throated in her support in a way that you might have expected. Then Rhaenys.

appears to talk him into supporting her. Jace, Luke, and Joff are claimants to the throne. Those boys will not be safe so long as Aegon is king. Rhaenyra was complicit in our son's death. That girl destroys everything she touches. That girl is holding the round together at present.

She's been part of these deliberations. She's seen that Rhaenyra is the only one who's saying, hold on, hold on, hold on. The realm, we need to think about that. We're just not going to plunge heedlessly into war. And it's in a wonderful turn. It's Rhaenys who is the one who convinces Corlys to support Rhaenyra potentially. I wonder, what is your read on where they are now? That was wonderful. I liked it a lot. It was definitely this episode where I was like, oh, is Rhaenys my favorite?

it because she's great she's great she's had a really fascinating role throughout this entire show and to see her i mean essentially she's like motherfucker you can't afford to be apolitical and i think she's absolutely right and obviously all of these characters are very complicated but at a very base level the question right now is who should be in charge rainiera or

or Aegon. And that, to me, is a pretty easy decision. And I could see Rhaenys, you know, especially after having been, you know, locked up in the castle after the news of Viserys, thinking the same thing. Like, that guy? No, we're not doing this. We're gonna go over here instead.

And their family anyway. Agreed. At the same time, like there was a very, it's a small moment. And I wonder if people will catch it. But when Sir Eric brings, now that is Jaehaerys' crown. Aegon is wearing Aegon the Conqueror's crown. Oh, okay, cool. I was wondering about that. Eric managed to smuggle the crown of old King Jaehaerys, which is also the crown that Viserys used to wear. So her father's crown gives it to Daemon, who then crowns

and everybody, and he reels off the titles. Everybody bows. Right after that, they walk into the black council chamber and everybody kind of bows their heads, but Rhaenys notably doesn't. Everybody else does, but Rhaenys doesn't. Now, Corlys hasn't arrived yet, but I found it a very interesting...

Again, you know, to your point, I really feel like Renise is one of the most careful operators in this entire show. And maybe my favorite character because she is being so careful and smart in everything that she does, even though she's clearly very supportive of Rhaenyra. You could read it as that she hasn't made up her mind yet. You could. I mean, there's also a read where she's like, bitch, that should have been me a long time ago. Like, finally, we're here. Yeah. And I shouldn't have to curtsy to you in this context. Yeah.

I also read it as, okay, show me. Yeah, that too. Let's see it. Yeah. Here you are starting your reign under the most pressing circumstances. Let me see what you have. What's next? And clearly Rhaenyra passed that audition because of the conversation that Rhaenys then has with Corlys. Rhaenyra's version of the small council is the so-called black council. And we meet a bunch of new characters here. First of all, we have

some new Kingsguard knights in Ser Marbrand and Ser Darklyn, who I think make a tough but wise decision to not get burned alive. It's like, is that really how you want fealty to be pledged? It's like, I mean, you could die fast now, you could die slow later, or...

you could say you support the queen. What do you think? Well, let me ask you this. Otto, in the previous episode, basically gave the gathered lords and ladies under the Iron Throne the same choice. Right. But he's much less explicit. Right. He doesn't, like, bring the dragon in. What's better? To have Otto? You know what?

You know what Otto intends if you say no, right? For sure. Yeah. No, you can't say no. You're getting strung up outside. Yeah. So which is better, to have it implied or to have it right on the table? The question also, though, is like, if this is about the carrot or the stick, we're talking a lot about sticks. The stick is hidden. Yeah. The stick is a dragon. But like, what about some carrots? You know? Yeah. Can't we win people over with benevolence and charm? And when Otto shows up and reels off all the reasons that Aegon is king...

He wears the Conqueror's crown, wields the Conqueror's sword, has the Conqueror's name. He was anointed by a Septon of the Faith before the eyes of thousands. Every symbol of legitimacy belongs to him. I thought he was doing a great job until... Until he made shit up. And then there is Stark, Tully, Baratheon. Houses that have also received and are at present...

considering generous terms from their king. Yeah, the overreach of saying, and the Riverlands and the Stormlands, you can count on them. Maybe they're making a decision right now. And listen, I think it's going to be a good decision for us. Don't quote me on that, but also quote me on that. I thought that was where...

Otto kind of ran out of steam a little bit, was bullshitting just a little bit. I mean, I think part of a negotiation like that is seeing what you can get away with with a bluff, you know? And partly, I'm sure what he's trying to read in that situation is, are they going to fight for this or are they just going to be glad that we haven't killed them already? Right. You know, in which case, you know, like maybe they're going to buy the bullshit and then it's totally cool. Obviously, that's not what happened. It's a really cool...

of the one earlier in the season where Rhaenyra solves the dragon egg crisis, right? Where it's another standoff, Otto and Daemon. But this time, instead of Mysaria, it is her standing next to Daemon and really him standing next to her because she is the queen now. And she even says, I go by queen now, little Otto. Fucking loser. Pulls the pin out of his lapel. Throws it in the water. Fuck you. Fuck you.

It did seem, you know, it's funny because that was a lot more childish than the first time around that she was there, really, you know. But a real flex to like walk up through Otto's squadron of dudes. Land the dragon. And yeah. Yeah. One of whom is Arik Cargill, the brother of Sir Eric, who brought the crown over and they're staring at each other. Family issues.

Yeah. I mean, that's what happens, right? Families torn asunder. That first Black Council meeting, and there's another interesting moment, Damon has just reeled off the stats, all the things that they have. Yeah. And the topic of River Run comes up and he's like, yeah, I'm going there myself. I'll talk with Lord Tully and we'll see where he stands. And Rhaenyra and him are just glaring at each other over the table because...

You know, Rhaenyra had said, nothing happens until I'm back. I'm giving birth right now. No moves. Everybody stand pat. Nobody do anything. But then it's clear in that time, Daemon has been sending ravens. Daemon has been making plans. It's such a charged moment. And this is right before she clears the room and then he tries to strangle her. Does strangle her. I wonder what Rhaenyra's thoughts are in this moment of like, oh, here is my husband. He's just fired up. Or if she's feeling like...

Hey, what the fuck? Yeah. Why are you already trying to take my authority and do something with it when it's this early? It's a good question. I have to say, I do love the across the table glare that precedes clearing the room because, you know, it's about to happen. Yeah. Strangling aside. No excuse for that. You keep saying that, Jason. It's so terrible and out of nowhere. I know.

But it does feel like on some level, those kind of debates at the top can be good. You mean in terms of like early on in her being a leader, trying to figure out where he is? Is that what you mean? Yeah. Like hear all the voices. Some voices want to go to war. In fact, most of them. Totally. But at least let them feel heard. Yeah. Because that's better than making them feel like you're just icing them out and then they have to make moves on their own. It feels like something potentially good could come of it.

It does. Well, and it's also fascinating to wonder, like, I understand that they didn't have a plan for a coup. Yeah. I think we can give them some grace for that. But it is a little surprising to me, you know, obviously Viserys is not well. Tensions are high. What is our plan for when he passes, God forbid, to solidify our role and to make sure that the realm is going to accept me as the heir? Yeah.

You know, it's a little surprising. It seems like all of this is kind of coming up from scratch right now. We're like, you'd think they would have at least had some conversations about the PR campaign or whatever, you know? They've been shockingly flat-footed, caught shockingly flat-footed on that front. That said, let's look at the math that Damon lays out. Yeah, that is solid math. We can throw out House Celtigar, House Darklin, Barman, you know, et cetera. That's like a couple hundred people.

armed men. The important thing is the dragons, and Daemon lays it out. It seems like the blacks have Syrax, Caraxes, and Maelys, ridden by Queen Rhaenyra, Daemon, and Rhaenys, respectively. Then there's Vermax, Arax, and Taraxes, ridden by Jace, Luke, and Joth, respectively, all younger dragons, but probably still pretty potent.

except for Arax, R.I.P. Then there's Moondancer, written by Bela, and Seasmoke, formerly written by Laenor Velaryon, may he rest in peace. Wink, wink, wink. And then several wild dragons that also live on Driftmark. And then the eggs that are incubating. All right. And then...

Vermithor and Silverwing, the former dragons of old King Jaehaerys and his wife, Queen Alysanne, who live under the Dragonmont volcano on Dragonstone. So quite a collection of dragons on the black side. Against them, the greens have Vhagar, ridden by Aemond One-Eye, Sunfyre,

written by King Aegon II, and Dreamfire, written by Helena. I mean, one thing that I found really surprising about this episode was how big Vhagar is. Vhagar is so big. Like, to see Vhagar next to a little baby dragon was like, oh, okay, like, the scale, I just hadn't really gotten a sense of it until that scene at the end, I think. Yeah, but you have to wonder, and especially after Corlys comes on side and pledges the fleets of

House Valerian to the cause. Yeah. That's the sea in the air. That's pretty good. If I'm Rhaenyra, I'm feeling pretty decent about my chances if it does come to an all-out war, considering the dragon advantage and the advantage at sea.

Is the problem that they're still the inherent underdogs because they didn't get to hold the coronation in King's Landing and they're not where the king should be, you know? And they're not, there isn't a king. She's a queen. Sure. I mean, I think part of the legitimacy is in the eyes of the beholder at this point. I mean, Otto makes a strong point, which is that Aegon's named Aegon. Right. He's got the crown of Aegon. He's got the sword of Aegon. He's sitting in the Iron Throne in the capital. Yeah. 10,000 people saw him get crowned king. Yeah.

They believe he's the king. So what are you going to do? And I think that that is a strong argument as well. And Rhaenyra, again, like I think quite honorably doesn't want to just like burn Rhaenyra.

everything to the ground in the way that Daemon, I think very, very clearly is very, very eager to burn everything to the ground. Seize Harrenhal, use it as a base, fly the dragons at King's Landing, burn everything. He's like, yeah, let's do it. That's my plan. What do you think? Yeah, that doesn't seem like the best plan. In that moment where Syrax goes crazy as the swords come out, I was wondering, rewatching this,

We think about the dragons, even though they are like these immense weapons of mass destruction, we think about them as kind of like passive characters in this. Like pets. Yeah, like pets. In this episode, I was struck by what active participants they really were. When Arox doubles back after seemingly Luke can escape, like they can just fly away, they've gotten away. Right. Arox doubles back to, you know, let loose a burst of flame at Aemond and Vhagar. Arox!

Luke is like, no, no, no, no. Like, serve me. Don't do this. What are you doing? Don't do that. Yeah. Similarly... Serve me, Vhagar! No! Aemond is trying to get Vhagar to not chase, to not engage. No, no, no, no, Vhagar. Don't, don't. And Vhagar...

doesn't listen and chomps down on Arax and Luke. And it made me feel like when coupled with that confrontation on Dragonstone where Syrax is, you know, like ready to go, it feels like the dragons want this war. They want to fight. As much as everyone around Rhaenyra is agitating for battle,

The dragons, it feels like, are part of this, whether they can sense it or who knows what it is. But it really felt like they want it as much as anybody else. I mean, I hate to be speciesist about it, but they are like designed to fly around and burn shit, right? I mean, it seems like they're probably pretty bored as is. I know, right? Just flying around and sitting like under mountains. Yeah. And doing nothing seemingly. Yeah.

I was really curious to hear your take on Eamon's culpability because I think you're totally right. Vhagar takes matters into her own hands, into her own wings, into her own front appendage, claw hook things. And Eamon looks shocked. It does not seem like that was the outcome he wanted. And he knows that everything is a lot more complicated now that that's happened. Well, just as we've seen restraint from Rhaenyra, we can surmise that

Otto and Queen Alison can count as well. They know that they have three adult dragons to 13, right? And so they are really, really, really hoping that Rhaenyra backs down and accepts the terms, even though those terms were clearly incomplete as we just talked about. And so I can only imagine that Otto and Alison impressed on Aemond. Your envoys, not warriors. Yeah. If you run into them,

Nothing happens. Don't do anything. Right. Again, it's like Renée said, that's your war to start, not mine. This is not Amon's war to start. Like, just don't do anything. And unfortunately, Vhagar decided to do something. And it's clear that there is no going back now. When Rhaenyra turns around when she gets the news, you know that whatever restraint, whatever was holding her back before is gone now. Yeah. Yeah.

The thing that I kept finding myself thinking about, though, is the scene right before that in Storm's End when Aemond threatens to take his eye out. Eye for an eye. Did you really think that you could just fly about the realm trying to steal my brother's throne at no cost? I will not fight you. Fight would be little challenge. I want you to put out your eye.

Amon is still obviously extremely culpable in this entire situation because he's egging those kids on all the fucking time, you know? Oh, I agree. Whether he wanted to put a scare into Luke or realistically wanted to take his eye, I don't know.

but that was a bad decision. Don't engage right here. Like this is on you to a certain extent. And I think that also what happened to, I lost an eye, but I gained a dragon. What happened to that? I thought, I thought that at that point we squashed it. Like the debts are paid, right? Yeah. Come on. What happened to that? Amen.

So Luke comes. He sees that Vhagar's already there. He's very nervous about it, right? He knows that Aemon's there. Yeah, that's ominous. Walks in, has the message to deliver from his mother. Uh-huh, uh-huh. Lord Boros Baratheon, son of Bormund, is now sitting there.

And it certainly seems as if he has made of his mind. Oh, yeah. By the time that Luke has arrived there. Luke is too late, for sure. Yeah, Luke is too late. Whatever the family ties are that bind the Targaryens and the Baratheons together, it's very clear that Lord Boros is one of these people who whoever speaks to him first dies.

has the upper hand. Like, that's the decision that he's going with. He had made his decision. Yeah. I also think about, too, though, like, I understand from Rhaenyra's point of view wanting to send those boys as envoys. They want to help out. They've got the dragons. They are obviously very well educated as potential heirs. Right.

They've been taking their roles super seriously. They want to do good. But from the point of view of most of the realm, those are just bastard kids. Like, the symbolism of sending your illegitimate son to try to help solidify your claim to the throne at this point is also probably not ideal. I think you're right. And at the same time, I think from Rhaenyra's point of view, she's already so pot committed to they are legitimate. Yeah.

Right? Absolutely. And I think it's an interesting feature of this world that, you know, it's not like today where...

The people who send people to war don't actually go here. You have to go because you're a dragon rider. That's it. Your sign of legitimacy, your dragon is also like one of the greatest weapons that this side has. And so, yeah, I mean, I wonder if you think that there is any other way other than sending Jason Luke out as messengers like is should they have just trusted the Ravens? I wonder.

I don't know. I mean, it definitely seems like this is one of those where you'd want to send somebody in person. And I also see that you wouldn't want to send Damon because how much shit is he going to stir up? I think it makes total sense from Rainier's point of view. I could just also see how from the points of view of these longtime houses, especially if they're kind of on the fence, that they'd be a bit put off by the situation. Now, I think that there's another miscommunication

that Rhaenyra made years ago with regards to these boys and their dragons, and that is this. I understand there's a lot of questions about Jason Luke's legitimacy, and therefore you want to put that egg in the cradle and you want it to hatch, because when it hatches, that goes a long way to saying, hey, these are Targaryens. At the same time, you have Big Daddy Vermithor and Big Mama Silverwing under the mountain. Maybe we should have gotten these boys the big dragons instead of the baby ones. Mm.

I wonder if Rhaenyra, if she could do it all over again, would say, I kind of wish that Luke had been riding Silverwing or even Vermithor rather than this little baby Ereks who Super Producer Kia said is so cute but also was gobbled up in a single bite.

It was interesting, too, to see the relationship, the kind of burgeoning relationship between Jace and Luke. Jace has clearly embraced this weight that has been put on his shoulders. He's like, let me deal with Daemon when his mom's giving birth. I'll find Daemon. I'll deal with all that. He is the one who says, send us. Don't send the ravens. It'll make a bigger impression if it's us on the dragons. Right. And Luke, though, you know, Luke carries out his duties bravely to the end. He seems so young.

He's so young. He's so worried that Corliss will die because then that'll mean he's the Lord of Driftmark. He clearly is worried about what people think about that and doesn't want to do it. It's a small moment, but on the beach when Luke and Jace are training and Jace like knocks a sword out of Luke's hand and knocks him down and is screaming in his face like, what was that? It felt like, gosh, here is that toxicity. Here is that like trauma again being passed down through a family to the younger kids who have no choice but to deal with it.

So intense. And even that moment with Renice coming up and saying, you boys both need to go talk to your mom right now. Ugh. Ooh.

Just heartbreaking. I did not know that the painted table could light up. Oh, that was super cool. Wasn't that cool? Kind of lava lamp style. I thought that was awesome. Yeah, it was gorgeous. I guess by the time we catch up with it in Game of Thrones, you know, mostly in Stannis scenes when he is there, that maybe when they had moved it around, like the LCD projector like got broken and lost it. It lost the light.

that makes sense they just didn't know where the wick was or something yeah they didn't know that it could do that because that was such a cool feature of the painted table that we were not aware of they don't make those bulbs anymore that's what it is that's what it is when raniera says you will have my answer on the morrow what do you think her answer is going to be now

Well, I think it's probably changed a lot. I think she, as we've talked about, she seems like she has been very measured throughout the season, really. And especially in this episode, as everyone around her is really clamoring for violence and, you know, decisive, swift action against the Greens. I think the fact that she even said she wanted a day was showing a lot of forethought and restraint. And I think everything changed when Damon brought her that news. Everything changed.

Not to mention the fact that, and we've talked about this a lot, about kinslaying, but Aemond is a kinslayer now. He just killed his nephew, which is a thing in this world that is really seen as a taboo. You would not do it. Maegor the Cruel notably kinslayed, and that was taken as a sign by many in the realm that he was an accursed figure who should not rule, and I think this is...

Part of that look that crosses Amon's face, I think, is not just the fact that they're at war clearly now, but the fact that he is going to be marked with this stain of the Kinslayer. So the question of what happens next, I wonder if we just open up with battle. Gosh, you know, the dragons. I think that at the wake of this, you know, the way Damon pulls Rhaenyra aside, it is both touching and

And also you get the feeling that he got what he wanted. This is what he wanted. That's true. And it's not one of his kids. It's not one of his kids, although he's been very warm towards them. And certainly the way he takes Jace under his wing in that moment when he's threatening the lives of the two Kingsguard members shows that he's taken an interest in those boys like in a fatherly way. I think that

Damon is going to get the thing that he wanted, which is a very, very active campaign. Dragons flying against King's Landing. Seize Harrenhal? Sure, go ahead and do it. Like, I think that the gloves are off now is my sense of what we're going to see. Well, and I think, like, I would love to talk more about

what we think will happen with season two and also like what we thought of this season as a whole in our next episode. I also, you know, favorite characters. I think there are a lot of other things that we can keep discussing around the show without new episodes. And we're going to be doing that over the next couple of weeks, which I think will be cool too. One of the biggest conversations I can't wait to have with you is which side is right? Mm-hmm. Oh, God. Or less wrong. Mm-hmm.

Yeah, less wrong is probably the best way to put that. Man, should we write the Reddit post, am I the asshole for this situation? Hey, I seized my best friend's throne for my son that I had with her dad. I married her dad, but I really didn't want to. I didn't want to. And then later on, I found out my dad had been plotting against her all along. So I thought that she was trying to gaslight me, but she was like actually telling the truth. And am I the asshole? Yeah.

And then it's Rhaenyra is like, hey, I faked the death of my husband, thus breaking the heart of my cousin and her family and two very important people towards me. Married my uncle, but he was super hot. So I kind of he was super hot. Also, he killed his wife in order to be with me. I'm his third wife.

And both have died before that. Right. Am I the asshole? We know Otto and Damon are both the assholes then, for sure. Oh, clearly. Clearly. No, I think there's a lot to talk about there because I have some very, I'm sure you have some very detailed thoughts about who is more wrong in this situation. Yeah, for sure. Okay, well, we want to get to our conversation with Ryan, but first, what's our death count? Well, we got one young prince who's

Lucerys Velaryon, R.I.P. Your dad, Laenor, is looking down in heaven, theoretically, as the realm thinks, but really from Essos somewhere. Just looking west. Right, looking west. The setting sun. Sir Harwin Strong, the man who took an interest in your life, is also probably sad wherever he is now. And then, of course, the dragon, Arax. So one prince and one dragon. And one premature baby. One premature baby, that's right. R.I.P.,

For the season finale of House of the Dragon, we are joined by Ryan Condal. You may recognize Ryan's work as the co-creator and showrunner for the series Colony and as the screenwriter for the film Rampage. But today we are talking about Ryan's role as the co-creator, co-showrunner, executive producer and writer of the HBO original House of the Dragon. Ryan, welcome back to the official Game of Thrones podcast.

Thanks, guys. It's good to be here. Bookending your podcast. Yes, no kidding. Yes, this is really cool to have you. I would love to talk about how you built off of what is now such a well-respected tradition of Game of Thrones when coming up with a prequel. I mean, in a lot of ways, that's a pretty heavy burden to carry. It's got to be pretty exciting and creatively rewarding for you too, though, right? Yeah.

Yeah, I mean, certainly the result has been rewarding. I think the approach that I always took and that I tried to instill in everybody that worked on the show is that we are making our own show. I think there's a lot of things to honor from the original series. And certainly we're standing on their shoulders. So thank you, David and Dan and everybody else for paving the way for us. But I think because of the nature of House of the Dragon and what it is, it's very much its own show. The trick in making this, I think, was honoring...

specific tonal things and the thematic things that make Game of Thrones Game of Thrones, but also doing something that

that felt new and unique to communicate that this was a different story in a different time period. And for that, I just relied on my knowledge of George and his work and his writing and what I took from it as a fan, both a genre fan and then as a screenwriter who was also awed by George's writing. And what is it about this that makes me love it? And trying to create something that

that I felt that honored it, but also that I would want to see as a fan. So that was always the true north that I followed in the making of the series. And I felt like if I was making something that I would approve of as a fan, I was doing myself, the 21-year-old me that discovered the book, a service. And thus, I hoped that I was doing service to at least a majority of the fan base. Yeah.

Episodes 9 and 10 act a little bit like chapter 1, chapter 2. We see the kind of post-Viserys era from the green perspective and the black perspective. And I was really struck by how in fits and starts, Alicent Rhaenyra, over the course of this story thus far, have really, really tried to

at different times and in different ways to avert this thing that seems like it's going to happen. How did you build that out? Because I think it's one of the most wonderful things about this story from a book reader perspective is just seeing like how much they tried to not have a war.

Yeah, I mean, I think that was something that we stumbled upon in the breaking of season one, and it's very complex structure just in terms of the different time periods and each episode being a contained cut of this time that leads up to the Dance of the Dragons. And we realized that really any one single moment in here, of these big moments at least...

you could point to and say, well, if that hadn't happened, then surely they wouldn't have gone to war. If Aemond hadn't had his eye cut out. Yeah. If Rhaena had claimed Vhagar instead. In even smaller moments, you know, if Viserys had just married Laena or literally anybody other than his hands daughter. Literally anyone else. Oh, Viserys. Um,

But what we like about that is that everybody, it feels like anybody that's been paying attention could go back and argue their own point. Well, the war started here. And I think the nice thing is just to tease season two a little bit because we are writing it right now. I think the fun of that going into season two is this idea that the characters in the show are wrestling with the same idea.

I think at least some of them, those that aren't just happily lapping up every chance they get to create chaos and murder and death. But that, I mean, that's the real tragedy of this story is that these two young women who were friends as girls,

who grew up deeply loving each other and their fathers deeply loving each other in their own way. And then how they were forced into this situation by the pressures put on them by the aristocracy and by the patriarchy, by these ancient political constructs around them. And then seeing the result of it, almost inexorably throwing them into war against every fiber of their desire and being. Just for you personally, do you feel like there's a point in the story where

From there on, there was no turning back. You know, it had to, of course, when, when, when Vhagar chomps on Lucerys. Yeah, that's the big one. It's kind of, that's certainly there's no turning back at that point. But is there any point up until then? It's really hard to say because it comes down to who do you think that point of no return is for? So if it's for Alicent and Rhaenyra, I think there's actually still hope, even, even with Luke's death.

The problem moving forward is that it's only so much in Alison and Rhaenyra's control anymore. And now we're dealing with their sons. And what we know from history is that war is often fought by the young...

16 to 22-year-old angry testosterone-loaded sons of the people that are trying to hold on to their power. And now that's what's happened. The barn doors have been opened in a way. And you have all these people that, you know, Amon and Aegon,

And Jace and Luke and Raina and Bela, they don't have this ancient history that Rhaenyra and Alicent had together when they loved each other and sat under the godswood and read books together. What they know is these entrenched sides that were formed by their parents and taught to them from a very early age. And Alicent is grabbing –

egg on his face when he's caught in a compromising position at the window, that very famous window of the Red Keep. And she's telling him that he is the challenge and that they're going to come for him and kill him. I mean, when you tell a 14 year old that, and that's probably not the first time that you've had that conversation with him.

That does something to a developing brain. And that is the tragedy of this story is that it's not even Alison's fault. It's actually her father's fault and Viserys' fault. And they didn't even realize it was their fault at the time. But again, that's why this is a Greek tragedy.

Yeah, I think that's the thing. I mean, it'll be interesting to see that playing out in season two, but I think you definitely see that in the, especially in the last couple episodes of this season two, just how completely out of control it is for Rhaenyra and Alyson. And how, even though, I mean, especially with Alyson in these last couple episodes, she is indisputably in a position of power. And yet, that doesn't actually mean as much as it should in this context. Yeah.

Yes, because her power is soft power. And it's her ability to put her son in a position to take the throne. But the minute that crown goes on his head, she is giving away, I think, more than she realizes that she's giving away. One of the characters who I was not expecting to be, I think, as active in the tale as they have been are the dragons. I was struck by, in the final moments of the season finale, that

Arax and Vhagar did what they wanted to do in a sense. Their riders were saying, serve me, don't do this. And the dragons were saying, no, we want to do it. How conscious was that? I think back to the earlier scene on Dragonstone when certainly Sirax seemed like it wanted to go to war. Are the dragons kind of forcing the issue here?

I don't know if they're forcing the issue. I wouldn't give that kind of agency to the dragons. But I would say that the warning that Viserys gave to Rhaenyra way back in episode one when they were standing under the Balerion's skull saying that the dragons are a power that man should have never trifled with, the idea that we control them is an illusion. Viserys rode Balerion.

He never really talked about it. But the reason he climbed off that dragon and never rode another one again, in our mind, in the backstory of this, was because he had ridden a nuclear bomb and had realized the awful power of it and was afraid of it in a way that, not in a cowardly way, but in a way that a person that respects the power of a gun or a war plane would respect it. And if you've read deeper into the history of Fire and Blood, there is a story where

somebody climbed up on that very same dragon valerian and got taken on a a ride that was horrifying and and probably it's hinted got taken back to the ruins of old valyria and god knows what happened there and i invite you to read the story because it's very good but viserys is aware he certainly knew that story when he got on valerian and

maybe something similar happened where he sensed that he was only in control to a degree. And I think that's the thing that we have to realize with these dragons is there is a sentience to them. And that's why we don't control them with

whips and chains and things. We've put saddles on them and ride them, but we command them with words. And they are intelligent to a degree, and they probably have some kind of agency when they're up in flight, and certainly when their territory or lives or well-being are being threatened. And I think that's the thing that you see in that final fight, which is a layer of complication in this, that these aren't B-52 bombers that

have trained pilots and just get them and they have to do it. They do. They're living, they're gods that we are in control of to a degree. And they're then, to a certain extent, a liability too, right? Correct. We've seen a number of pretty shocking scenes of childbirth in this series. I thought the one in the finale was...

truly horrific. It was interesting even just texting with Jason about that scene because partly I think we were both sort of wondering like, what does this say about our tolerance for scenes like this and the fact that we just don't see a lot of them on TV at all? But I would love to know sort of what your thought process was going into filming, how you decided what to keep in the final version. What did you think about it?

Baked into the narrative of this story, there were a series of childbirths and some had consequences to them. The first of which is obviously Emma's, which is in many ways the inciting incident. Another point that you could go back to if Emma had just given birth to a male son, then none of this would have happened. And we wanted to dramatize them in such a way that wasn't being gratuitous or glorifying anything.

this idea, but also showing, you know, television childbirth is always this cleaned up thing with a woman in a hospital bed who, you know, sweats a bit and then pushes and then, you know, baby comes out. But like,

You know, I have not myself been through the process, but I've been in the room twice when it happened. And Sarah herself has given birth and lots of other people in the show, either dads that were there or mothers that actually experienced. And it's kind of this really scary, violent event. And you're I remember in the hospital sitting there going, what was this like? Yeah.

in the Victorian age. Right, it's scary in 2022, let alone, yeah. Yeah, and sort of an aside, but I would always poll people that had children afterwards, and I would say, Victorian survival, that would always be the question.

And, you know, they would have to answer like, no, because my wife actually got halfway through it and then needed to be sedated and have a C-section or the baby was in breach and we had to do this thing or there was so much blood loss afterwards that, you know, and all of these things are, these were things that people in that time had to deal with. So it was this, it was a battlefield in the sense that you were going in to this situation to serve your house, you know, serve your family, serve your name, right?

With putting your body on the line and not knowing what the outcome was going to be. And in that way, it's very, I think it's a easy metaphor with what nights on horseback do in this time. And we wanted to dramatize that and show how it affected certainly the women taking part in it, but also the men that surround them and have, you know, either partners in their life or their husbands or.

their sons and children and make each one of those experiences different. And I think the, the final birth with Runear is, is not really a childbirth sequence. You're watching a miscarriage and she knows it. When Gerardus says this shouldn't be happening, she's far, she's well before her term. And Runear is, Runear, she's been through enough of these things. She knows what's going on. She knows she's going to, at the very best of this walk away with this, probably a stillborn child, which is what happens. So, whereas the other births are,

live you know childbirth that you know either ends in triumph or tragedy this is a different experience this is another experience that a woman would go through in this time and this is brought on by the whatever you believe in watching the narrative the grief and the experience the emotional experience that we're near is going on perhaps there's some higher order thing omens and the things that operate in the world of game of thrones going on you know the very simple thing of even the different positions the women were in

Emma's lying on her back in a more traditional position. Lena was on all fours. Some women choose to give birth that way. Those were things that Sarah really brought into it because she's like, I feel like every... I'm doing my Sarah voice. Every birth is just a woman lying on her back and squeezing out a baby. That's not the way it happens all the time. So she wanted for the final one, I remember she pitched that Rhaenyra was pacing around angry because Daemon was

seizing control and she and her own her female body was keeping her out of the active agency in the beginning of her own fight for her claim and she was frustrated with Damon and certainly frustrated with her femininity and her womanhood holding her back from this thing so she's like she should be pacing around and she should just you know toss everybody away and just basically bring the baby out of her herself and we just love that that

the power of that pitch that she made and wondering what that would look like on screen. And then, of course, Emma performed the hell out of it. And I think it's a really powerful, horrifying scene because of it. I was really struck by what modern rulers, Viserys and now Rhaenyra, appear to be. Take them out of the context of this kind of feudal, medieval, patriarchal society, you know, shot through with magic and dragons and

and drop them, you know, in a democracy, they might do pretty well. They seek consensus. They communicate openly in the midst of everyone about their disagreements with other people. We see this with Raniro when she's very forcefully attempting to stop this headlong march to war that appears to be happening and trying to pull back her various courtiers, including Damon. But is it a liability in this world? You know, like it's the way people view you is as weak, right? Yeah.

So I wonder, like, can that work? Can that style that Viserys attempted to execute and that Rhaenyra is attempting to use here, can it really work? She says at one point that she doesn't want to be this kind of like dictatorial rule by force type of figure, but is she going to have to be?

We shall see. I think those are the very things that Rhaenyra is going to struggle with in the next chapter of the story. I think they're compounded by two factors, one of which is she's now finds herself, if not at war, certainly on the very brink of it. And the second factor is simply that she's a woman. That combined with her, the way that she learned how to do this job, which was by carrying her father's cups and watching how he ran his council, which as you've

very adroitly pointed out, is a very modern, progressive, democratic way of ruling where Viserys rules by consensus. And he really does take in all the opinions of those around him, perhaps to great a degree at times. But we would see that as a person who does take in other people's counsel. And I think we see Rhaenyra

starting to do that as she's finding her own footing at the at the end of that table and this sudden thing that happens to her suddenly she finds a crown on her head and she's standing at the table everybody's looking at her trying to rule very much similar situation to being a showrunner in many ways

And wondering what the hell to say. So, so I think that I think what's it's that's the interesting thing of what's coming is, is, you know, war complicates it because now it's like, okay, well now we have to, you know, send troops in the battlefield and where are we sending the dragons and what are we burning next?

And the fact that Rhaenyra is a woman and she's looked at a certain way by the men, you know, you notice very sort of purposefully, there's a lot of men standing around that table looking at her. Those are the things that she's going to carry forward. One of her things that she will explore and struggle with in season two is how to carve her own identity out in this world where she's learned from Viserys and now we're at war. And now also the realm is getting to see up close and personal what it means to have a

named and then support a woman as not only heir to the throne, but now the ascendant sovereign. It's such a fascinating dynamic to see with her because she does seem very well qualified. She seems, to Jason's point, could be a really great leader. She's been preparing for this her entire life. And yet, I still can't help but wonder, especially in these final episodes, how much of the decisions she's making is based on the fact that

She's been so deeply offended and insulted by the fact that Aegon has been crowned. Yeah, it's a really tough line for her. And she's also dealing with the Song of Ice and Fire that her father instilled in her. And she's responsible in her mind for doing the same thing that Viserys did, which was, how do you hold the realm united and fight for your own claim? These things are...

you know, paradoxically opposed to each other. What really comes at her in that finale is the paradox of being a ruler where there is no right decision. And oftentimes justice is

And this sense of ethics and morals, but also trying to show strength and compassion. All these things are in conflict with each other. It's not just a binary situation where you're just making, oh, this is the just choice and this is the unjust choice. Actually, whatever you decide, people are likely going to die. If you decide not to fight, people are going to die. If you decide to fight, people are going to die. It's an impossible seat. Yeah.

Again, a lot of what you see Rhaenyra wrestling with in their very early stages in episode 10 and then what certainly she will wrestle with coming into the future is seeing, oh, this is the job that my dad had for 30 years. And seeing this is why he was a zombie at the end of it. This is what this thing did to him. Yeah.

Zombie is a surprisingly apt word for how he writes by the end of that. And a lot of that, you know, Viserys' illness, which we elongated from what he experienced in the book, but made it a metaphor for the experience of this burden that he was carrying and also the experience of trying to rule the realm and sit in the Iron Throne, which passes judgment on those that sit on it. And the Iron Throne probably, if the throne is passing judgment, probably would have seen Viserys as a quote-unquote weak king, right?

for all the reasons that we discussed about him taking consensus and being just and trying to listen to the opinions of others. It ate him away and probably a tyrant would have done a better job or at least had an easier time of it. Well, right. They would have been at least like less hung up on the fact that they're ruling over ashes and bone or whatever. Right. There'd be more heads on spikes.

It's interesting to hear you compare being a showrunner to where Rhaenyra finds herself at the end of this. And it makes me wonder, like, would you ever want to be a ruler in Westeros? No. Why not? Because I just think it's such a rented seat. And I think the minute you sit in it, everybody is coming for you. And look at Viserys. I mean, even in peacetime, everybody is coming at him with...

Angling and does he have any real friends auto Hightower advises him but then he and then he walks his daughter into the Sarah's bed in a moment of vulnerability was auto ever his friend or was he simply just biding his time enjoying his seat of power right next to the seat of power waiting for his moment to support the glory of house Hightower.

to me that no i think you know i don't think anybody's had a good time doing that and those that do i think are the joffreys and the makers of the world which which you know which not not a great time for anybody else no i think i think the the best job in this world is to be

the Lord of a house that isn't in charge of their kingdom. So not, you don't want to be Lord Paramount. You just, you want to be like a big cheese, the high towers, the high towers had it right. Yeah. Lord Desmond Malister. That's, that's where you want to be. Just enjoying all of your horses and tournaments. And maybe one of your sons will make the Kings guard. No, isn't that great. And then you pass it on and on. That's, that's where you want to be.

As a book reader, I've been just kind of astounded at the amount of surprises in this show, how additive it has been to the book text. Now, the books are, you know, a fictional history from the perspective of several unreliable historians working from spotty sources, right?

But as you were making these decisions, how did you delineate between, oh, here's a cool bit of color and context, something that got by the historians like Laenor's escape. And how did you decide, OK, this is an actual change, whether it's the Great Council of 101 coming down to Viserys and Rhaenys rather than Viserys and Laenor, stuff like that?

- Yeah, it's a heavy burden, that seat. Because you're making a million decisions and hoping that in some, they will lead to something good.

And that's the challenge of adapting to the book. I think it's a fun thing of adapting this book because, and I've said this from the beginning, I've really always wanted this show to act as a companion piece to the book and the book companion piece to the show. I really think in a way that most adaptations cannot coexist happily and peacefully. I really think these two pieces of material, the show and the book can, because I think the people that will probably enjoy this the most are people who have read the book and seen the show and that aren't

I would say in the nicest way possible, aren't devoted to one or the other. And that can just appreciate them as well put screaming. Where's Darren on the daring. That's right. He's he lives by the way, I will confirm for all listeners. Darren lives. He lives in old town. He exists. Don't worry. Darren exists. Oh, wow. But huge news. Yeah. But, um,

But the idea is that if you can really look at them objectively just as a fan and appreciate them for what they are, I really do think that they exist in a nice kind of harmony together because the book is a historical account written by people that did not

live through that time, unless you believe mushroom, did not live through that time. In many ways, it's much, I think George sort of drew from the history of the Bible and writing this, because at least the gospels, the most current gospel was written some 30, 40 years after Jesus' death. I mean, that's like remembering today is something that happened in 1982 with extreme clarity in a world where there's no recorded media or anything like that. So

The approach that we took is essentially the book is a document that got some things right and got some things wrong. The show is going to be this version of the objective truth. So in the show canon and the show universe, the same show universe that Game of Thrones exists in, this is the objective truth of what happened, at least through the scenes that we're choosing to put on film to show you.

The book is a history book. It's written by all men. There's a septum of the faith involved with it. Most of them are, if not green supporters, they are green leaning. History itself is a piece of propaganda. Oftentimes, I think this book is no different. And that is the sort of thematic approach that we have taken. We're not saying that it's just made up nonsense or anything like that. There is truth all weaved through that book.

But I think the nuance of how and why things happened and the secret conversations that you would never be privy to as one of these historians that are happening in the closed bed chambers of lords and kings that don't make the historical record.

Those are all the things that you're missing and not seeing. And that's why the history is being kind of, oh, I have this strip and this strip and let's glue them together with this piece of conjecture. Again, that's why I think they coexist very nicely because the show to me enhances the enjoyment of reading the book. The book hopefully enhances the enjoyment of watching the show. Well, and it seems too that from a showrunner perspective, there's got to be a real excitement around adapting something that does have that much room to still play in.

in a pure creative writer's sense, it's thrilling because it's so freeing and it allows you to be at once devotedly faithful to the source material and also incredibly free and creative to

make different decisions and to turn an expectation on its head, to take the event, the little line in the book about Lady Rhea being, you know, having her skull crushed in a fall from her horse and turning that into a whole scene and a motivation for Damon to strike back at this, the king who's always held this, you know, loveless marriage that, you know, is basically a prison for Damon to keep him controlled and keep him from doing the things he wanted to do. So Damon goes and destroys it. And it, you know, so that little line from the book becomes that thing. And then

You know, but of course, the historians that lived through this period would have no way of knowing that unless they followed Damon into the veil in his crime committing cloak. His crime cloak. That's amazing. You always know he's up to no good when Damon's got his hair covered. Oh my gosh. I think one of the.

the most powerful that this show added to the book lore has been Aegon's dream. I think it's something that as readers and as fans of this kind of sprawling series, everyone is still grappling with trying to figure out, well, how did this affect the decisions that various rulers made? Did it get all the way to Rhaegar, et cetera? How is it affecting the players now? It's so interesting watching that blade get tossed around, knowing where it's going to go, knowing what's on it,

And seeing people use it in such careless ways, how is it motivating Rhaenyra? And at what point will she consider, and we saw kind of the kind of shocking effects when she shared this with Daemon, who she thought knew about it. How is this information going to be deployed by Rhaenyra going forward?

well i think that remains to be seen but it certainly is a burden we know that she knows it we know that damon does not and whatever a little bit he heard he was very dismissive of we know that allison hurts heard something but hasn't quite put it together what it is and um it is a thing you know going into this war does that secret get passed on uh

Again, I mean, as far as we know, Rhaenyra has not yet shared it with Jace, who would be her heir immediately upon Viserys's passing and her own ascension.

So it's definitely going to play a role in the story moving ahead because it is the thing that Rhaenyra, uniquely Rhaenyra, is going to wrestle with that the other side, simply they don't have the knowledge, thus they can't be burdened by it at the moment. Someone actually tweeted this at us the other day, but it does seem like just a baby name book with more ideas of names would have really helped. Would have gone away. Which Aegon? Which one? There's two right now. Yeah.

So we've asked a couple different people behind the scenes now this question, and we've gotten a variety of different answers. So I'm going to put you on the spot, too. OK. Are you team green or team black? I'm team good storytelling. Yeah, that's what everybody would like it. I like it. I like it. Yeah. I think people will come out of this season.

feeling like they've taken one clear side and it's never gonna change and that's it and that's the way it goes. My hope is that, yes, I understand that. And it goes from maybe episode to episode or sort of arc to arc. 'Cause remember there was a time when, I don't know that Alison and her ilk are very popular at this very moment.

But there was a time when everybody felt really bad for Alicent and felt like Rhaenyra was the one. Yeah, I do like Alicent more than it seems like most people do, I will say. She tried really hard in the worst of circumstances to do her best, I thought. She's a tragic character. And certainly, you know, the Alicent of episode four, you know, that's a different thing that we have now. But you have to realize that these things don't happen in vacuum. So the Alicent of episode four has led us to the Alicent of episode nine. But

But my hope is that that kind of continues on and that as this story goes through its peaks and valleys and movements, and there are many to come, that I think people will think that they're going one way and they're going to say, oh, no, I'm completely off of this. Or just come to the conclusion that I can't support either side of this. I just want them to all stop fighting, please.

Please stop the madness. That's also a possibility too. But I mean, that's what we've really tried to do is really populate this world with complex characters who do not subscribe to the classic white hat, black hat world.

you know, cowboy story, villain hero thing. And everybody is just an individual with wants and needs of their own. They're in this very difficult situation with different forces all around them, parents and children and loyalties and ambitions all pulling at each other. And they result in choices that are sometimes heroic and sometimes really monstrous. Either way, super complicated, which is fun to watch. We're going for complicated.

Ryan, anything else to plug? What's up next? I have a dumb podcast that I would love to talk about for a minute. If you guys are okay. We love dumb podcasts. Yeah, absolutely. All right. So the stuff dreams are made of.

My podcast I host with the wonderful David Mandel, showrunner of Veep and Seinfeld, Curb Your Enthusiasm. Podcast about collecting movie memorabilia, television memorabilia. We actually, we're coming back for a new season. And we have, coming on the first episode, we have Peter Jansson coming on, who is the Swedish sword maker who created and built Blackfire and Dark Sister for us. That's amazing. And he is an actual...

swordsmith who makes swords for a living and he built and designed those two things. So that's our first episode. We're going to talk to him. It's a deep dive, you know, an hour just with him talking about making those two swords. And I think if you're interested in the sort of the making of stuff that you don't typically get to in these kinds of forums, because this is a very specific topic, Peter's fascinating, really interesting guy. I think it's really cool. You should come by and check it out. Stuff dreams are made of. Thanks. That's awesome. I'm excited to hear that.

you know, you think about a swordsmith and it's like, what other, like, this has to just be such a dream job for him too, right? To be able to do this. He couldn't believe it. He couldn't believe it when I called him. And he was a fan of the original show and then he had to go to this, like, forge in Sweden that makes Damascus steel out of stainless, they make like kitchen steel and he had to go to them and say, can you make it in sword size? And then with a straight face try to convince them that he was not assigning them the making of Valyrian steel swords. Yeah,

Do you have a personal favorite, Blackfire or Dark Sister? I mean, I just love Dark Sister. Blackfire is the ancestral story. You know, it's the one. But I think, I just think

You know, Damon was the character that I think I wrote and got my head around first. And I've always kind of lived, not that I'm like him, but I've lived in that weird head of his for so long that I, and then that sword is the one that gets all the mileage put on it this year. I think, I think that was the one that I, I gravitated to. I also, I also love Visenya as a character. I've always been fascinated by Visenya and the fact that that's her sword and Vhagar is her dragon. I think it's Dark Sister for the time being. It's cheating to use it in a tournament, isn't it? That's should be not allowed. Yeah.

You go tell Damon. I'll be up in the seats. Yeah, that's a good point. That's a really good point. Thanks a lot, Ryan. Yeah, you guys got it. Thank you. Thank you.

That's all for this episode. Don't forget, we will be back this coming Wednesday, October 26th. We're going to zoom out and take a deeper dive into the first season of House of the Dragon as a whole. And we want to hear from you. Don't forget to leave a rating and review on your podcast player of choice. And you can find us on the Game of Thrones and House of the Dragon social media handles. You can find me on Twitter at NETW3RK.

And you can find me at Greta M. Johnson on Twitter and Instagram. The official Game of Thrones podcast, House of the Dragon, is produced by HBO Max in collaboration with iHeartRadio. This podcast is hosted by Jason Concepcion. And Greta Johnson. Our executive producer is Molly Socha. Our supervising producer is Nakia Swinton. Our lead sound engineer is Matt Stillo. This episode was edited by Sierra Spreen. Our producer is Jason Concepcion in association with Crooked Media.

Special thanks, as always, to Michael Gluckstadt, Allison Cohen, Kenya Reyes, and Becky Rowe from the HBO Max podcast team, Ashley Morton, Dana Froome, Liz Keating, and Megan McLeod at HBO Marketing.

Additionally, we'd like to thank some of the folks who made the season possible, including Ben Goland, Christine Niclario, Hassan Chaudhry, and Dan Nimet-Najat. As well as Diego Aldana, Kristen Ardigo, Aaron Tresco, Joshua Auker, Veronica Geronimo, Maynard Kay, and Winifred Parnes.