House Of The Dragon: Ep. 4 “King of the Narrow Sea”
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Tell me, Lord Undarion, did you think my great-grandmother as beautiful as they say? This was half a century ago, princess. Yes, it was. That was unseemly. The man is older than my father. It's unseemly for him to put himself forward as a contender for my hand. You mean kind of like King Viserys and your friend Alicent? Oh!

Wow, wow, wow. I mean, this is a brutal... These are, like, terrible choices, though. Like, this sucks for Rainiera. Can I just say that? I'm going to put away my modern-day lens and take Allison's

and say, actually, considering the mores of Westeros, this is as good as it gets. She's getting to choose. Nah, man, this sucks. She's not getting married off to some guy that she doesn't even meet. She gets to go on a whole tour and choose the dude. I don't know. I'm pretty sure we're better off with Hinge. And that's an intense statement I'm making, Jason. Well, listen, there's no question that we're better off with Hinge. Okay? Yeah.

There's no question. It's a low bar, okay? Yeah, it's true. No duels. Yeah, that's a fair point. That's a fair point.

Welcome to the official Game of Thrones podcast, House of the Dragon. I'm Jason Concepcion, host of the podcast X-Ray Vision from Crooked Media. And I'm Greta Johnson, host of WBEZ's Nerdette podcast. And this is a Game of Thrones podcast for everyone, whether you are an OG Thrones nerd or you just started your journey with the HBO original series, House of the Dragon.

We're on number four, big episode number four. I can't believe we're almost halfway through the season already. It's crazy. Yes, there is so much here. I don't know if you know this, Jason, but in terms of like numerical symbolism, four is associated with self-expression and self-fulfillment, which is like, it comes up in this episode, we'll just say. Well, there's definitely some fulfilling going on out there. Indeed. Indeed.

And speaking of that, we are going to have Fabian Frankel, who plays Sir Kristen Cole. Yes. Our semi-Dornish hunk will actually be joining us later in today's episode. Yes, we are super excited about that. Should we dive into our recap? Let's do it. Hit us.

Okay, so I feel like this episode was kind of the closest thing yet to an episode of Gossip Girl. So in that spirit, I just want to say, hey, Upper East Siders. Spotted, Princess Rhaenyra is in another stunning outfit. She's trying her hand at speed dating. Prince Daemon is back in town after his chaotic battle victory, and he's got a pretty great haircut. He and Viserys hug and make up, but their brotherly love is not long for this world.

When he invites Rhaenyra to sneak into town, she goes for it, but things take an incestuous turn and everybody's talking about it. But who did Rhaenyra actually get with that night and who lost his job after a lot of scheming? That's one secret I'll never tell. You know you love me. XOXO, Gossip Girl. I love that.

So, Jason, where should we start with the speed dating? I mean, it seems like a good place to start. Right. First scene. She looks so bored. She looks so bored. Some fun facts about this. So, yeah, Rhaenyra is sitting next to Boram and Baratheon, who's the lord of Storm's End. So this is our first look at the castle Storm's End, which I think is one of the swellest castles in the whole land, Greta. Yeah.

You know, I don't hear the word swellest often enough, Jason. Thank you for that. Yeah. One of our theme for this episode is indulgence and escape. And very, very clearly, Rhaenyra would like to escape the drudgery of touring the realm looking for a guy. Yeah. This looks extremely boring, though. I have to say her outfit is great, as always. I mean, you know, we talked to Millie like the

The costumes. Rhaenyra consistently has the best costumes, and I love it. A little strapless number. The color, it was gorgeous. She looked great. Fun fact about the little argument that takes place here. So in the books, it is almost like an anecdote when they talk about Rhaenyra coming of age in about 113, 112-ish years.

is that suitors were falling over themselves and, in fact, occasionally fighting over her. And it is mentioned that Sam Blackwood and Amos Bracken get in a duel over Rhaenyra. Now, the backstory here is the Blackwoods and the Brackens are like the Hatfields and the McCoys of Westeros. They have a feud that goes back decades.

legitimately thousands of years. They're neighbors. They have adjoining land. But nobody actually knows what started it because the Blackwoods don't trust the histories written by the Brackenmaesters and the Brackens don't trust the histories written by the Blackwoodmaesters. That feels right.

And so this goes back. And so when Sam says, hey, you know, my great-grandsire, you know, it all goes back to Aegon the Conqueror and Lucas Blackwood and those days. The Blackwoods did actually support Aegon the Conqueror as he was invading Westeros. And Aegon rewarded them by giving them a set of

a piece of land that included hills called, quote unquote, the Teats. So this gives you a little understanding of what the hills look like. I prefer Grand Teton. Thank you very much. Yes. I'm just here to deliver the information. Okay, okay. But those hills apparently had been also claimed by the Brackens. So that is yet another piece of this ongoing feud. And I'm sure after Sam Blackwood slays Abel's Bracken...

That that is just another brick in this long road of rivalry between these two storied houses. Like part of the reason that when Lord Baratheon is like, oh, they have a great army. Yeah, they have a great army because they're always fighting with their neighbors, the Brackens. They've been doing it for thousands of years. That's funny. So it's not actually about Rhaenyra at all. Not at all. Like they would have probably killed each other regardless. Well, that's got to make Rhaenyra feel better, right? Yeah.

So from there we go pretty much. Well, we have the dragon boat scene. Tell me about that. Well, first of all, it was interesting because, man, Rhaenyra hot footed it. First of all, they were an hour out. And then she gets buzzed by Daemon's dragon, Caraxes, the bloodworm, which almost like sinks the ship. Stop doing shit like this, Daemon. Yeah.

Like chaos, chaos, chaos. Yeah, just like fly in like a normal guy with a dragon. Yeah, yeah. You're going to make a scene regardless just by showing up, you know? But I think clearly that's part of it. Like Damon can't just show up. He needs to make his presence felt. And I wonder, thinking about our theme of indulgence and escape, it did feel...

feel like Damon is escaping something. For sure. Because, you know, Rhaenyra straight up asks him, like, what are you doing here? And he's like, I missed the comforts of home. I missed home. And she's like, you don't live here, dude. Yeah. You don't live here. You don't give a shit. Like, what's going on? And it's, I think...

Whatever it is, trouble with Misaria. Clearly they look rocky right now. But there is some issue that he is escaping and that's why he's back. I like that. The pathologizing of Damon is really interesting because it's like, do we need an excuse for why this dude is just like completely unhinged? You know what I mean? It's like, well, yeah, that's just how Damon is as far as I could tell. Yeah.

What did you think of the dragon boat scene? I thought it was really interesting. I mean, I think what I found most fascinating about Damon's return was how happy Viserys, like that hug that they shared. Never seen him that happy, yeah. Viserys was so joyful. And he, you know, the way he immediately just turned into this sort of like joking bro who's like hanging out with his bro was... That's great. You know, and it's funny because, you know, they have this backyard barbecue and like Viserys still gets pretty sauced.

but at least he's sauced and happy, which is, you know, a slight variation on at least what we've seen the last couple episodes. It's like, no mom loved you better. Everybody knew that game. And everybody knows that mom loved you the best. You were such a warrior. I was a warrior. Mom loved you so much. That was really nice. And it was really, you know, we talked so much about the Sarah's is isolation, his loneliness in the previous episode. Yeah. And,

It's clear, man, he missed his brother when he raises Daemon up after Daemon gives up his crown. Yes. You know, drops the crab feeder's hammer as an offering to add to the throne. Here's a person who he can share parts of his life with that he can't share with anybody else. It makes sense. It's the closest thing to a peer that he has in the world. Yeah. That was really nice to see. I especially loved the part where, you know, Rhaenyra comes over and obviously she knows that dad's mad because he spent...

much time arranging this world tour for her that she canceled after a month. And so he's very angry and giving her the cold shoulder. And she comes over and is like, hey, you know, what's going on? And then Allison brings up the tap. Hey, what about the tapestries? We go see the tapestry. We can all see the tapestries. You take Damon to see the tapestries. The tapestry. Yeah.

Give me a break. The fucking tap. This guy doesn't give a shit about the tapestries. Tapestries. Snoozefest. You know, as snide and as snotty as that was, it was actually really sweet, too. Just to see him connecting with his, like, you don't know. I know my brother. We're watching the game, babe. Just leave it alone. You know? And clearly so wonderful for them to be back together again. I don't know if we see...

You know, just thinking about the tone of what we've seen thus far. I feel like we're not going to see Viserys happy again. Well, and I think, too, there's some real sweetness almost in that same scene between Rhaenyra and Alicent where they're talking with each other. It is rare for girls in this realm to get a choice between two suitors, no less two score of them. They only want my name in my Valyrian blood for their offspring. I think it's rather romantic.

How romantic it must be to get imprisoned in a castle and made to squeeze out to airs. Yeah, it's one of those gilded cage situations where Alicent would seem to have everything, right? Right. And yet as soon as Rhaenyra is like,

whining about the tour saying, you know. All these dudes. This was actually heart-wrenching. Alison is a young woman who all of a sudden is married with multiple young children. And here is her good friend who had the opportunity to go on this whirlwind tour where men from across the realm are throwing themselves at her. And she's romanticizing it in a way that a young girl would, saying, oh, it's like,

it must have been romantic on some level. Like, it sounds great. And then Rhaenyra's like, oh yeah, how great it must be to be imprisoned in a castle just to squeeze out heirs, which was this dart right at Alyson's heart. And you could see her just wince at,

Yeah. When Rhaenyra said that. Yeah, it was a heartbreaking scene, but it was, I don't know, there was also just something about seeing them connecting that was sweet after, you know, I mean, we haven't seen that much emotional intimacy between them in a while. Yeah, it was beautiful. I mean, each saying that they missed the other holding their hands. I don't know. Yeah.

Yeah. It makes you heartbroken for what surely is to come. And it also makes you think, I found myself thinking about this, I wonder what you think, that if they could just like shove away all of these other forces that they're beholden to, they would just be great friends. Yeah. Well, I think the problem is that all those forces are just so powerful that, you know, it's really like, how do you compartmentalize them?

all of this patriarchy that the both of them are dealing with in different ways you know and i think it's kind of impossible and i found it very meaningful that we were intercutting raniera's night of escape and indulgence with alicent's oh my god literally being trapped under this old scarred man yeah that was a really intense juxtaposition of scenes for sure

I guess we should talk about that Rhaenyra and Daemon night of adventure. Yeah. First thing I just want to bring up, can somebody map the secret passages already? Yeah.

You know what I mean? Like, as soon as I became king, if that ever happened in Westeros, the very day one would be like, let's find them all. Hey, let's get all these. Let's nail down where all these secret passages are, because this is untenable. We can't just have people crawling around in the walls all fucking day and night. Well, it was interesting, too, that like it seemed like at least the way I read that scene was that Rhaenyra didn't know there was a secret passageway. Right. It was that note from Daemon telling her how to get out that she realized it.

As we talked about in the past, those secret passages were put in and designed by Maegor the Cruel. And then to keep them secret, he killed all the construction workers. Right. And so that information is basically like lost. We can assume that Daemon, because he is such a curious cat, among other things.

That's one way of putting it, I suppose. Probably spent a good portion of his childhood being raised in that castle just searching these things out, looking for those passages, which is why he is able to move in and out of the capital and elsewhere like it will. He just knows all these secrets. But yeah, Rhaenyra very clearly did not know that there's a straight up full passageway behind her bed.

Yeah, yeah, that was super interesting. I actually think before we talk about them going out, though, we need to talk about their little scene where they, like, shit-talk each other in Hyvalerion. Oh, that was great. You know, they both sort of, like, wander off from the barbecue. I think partly, you know, speaking of our theme of escape, like, hearing Damon talk about marriage the way he does and how much he just obviously...

really disdains his wife. Yes, Rhea Royce. And Rhaenyra expressing her hesitation around marriage to him. I just thought it was a really interesting, I thought it showed really interesting character insights on behalf of both of those characters. Yeah, this is a person in Daemon that Rhaenyra can complain about the things that she has to deal with, this ungainly marriage pact that's being thrust upon her at the same time.

You know, I mean, look at the sounding board. This guy isn't, he's married, yes. When was the last time he was home? Yeah, we have not met his wife. I'm not sure he's met her for more than a minute, like five minutes.

So I don't know that that is the best sounding book, but yes, Damon is the person who can be like, yeah, marriage. What a ball and chain. Am I right? Yeah. But I mean, the way he kind of puts it is like, it actually doesn't matter. Like, you know, you can marry whoever and it's not going to be that big of a deal. And then for her to come back and say, unless, you know, I die in childbirth, dude. Yeah. Was really something. There was also that small council meeting where we learned a little bit about what Corliss is up to. My brother has sent disturbing word from Eltham.

Lord Corlys is said to have engaged in negotiations with the Sea Lord of Braavos. He plans to wed his daughter Laena to the Sea Lord's son. Rhaenyra has a seat at the table, which is, I think, the first time we've seen that in a small council meeting, which is cool. But it became very clear over the course of that meeting that she is still very much essentially a bargaining chip or a chess piece.

Well, so Corliss making a deal. It's very interesting that this information came from Old Town. So we would imagine that Otto's brother, Hobert, has just got his ear to the waves, so to speak. But Braavos of the Free City is an interesting one. It's kind of like the Dorne of the Free Cities in that sense.

Most of the free cities were founded by Valerian influence in one way or another. But the Braavos was founded by escaped enslaved people who were enslaved by Valerians. So they have a different kind of culture, a more like mercantile culture.

banking and finance kind of culture, trade culture. And they are, of course, very strong at sea. And Braavos is also home, in addition to like multitudes of religions, to the House of the Undying and the very, very scary faceless men sect of assassins that can go anywhere, kill anyone and make it look like any kind of accident. So this kind of burgeoning

threat of an alliance between Corlys Valerian, you know, certainly the head of one of the most powerful families in the realm, has the most powerful single fleet, you know, in Westeros, and is on the outs with the king. For him to be kind of seeming like he would strike a deal with Braavos is scary on a multitude of levels for the small council.

So from there, Alicent helps Viserys with his bath. He's still obviously unwell. And then Daemon invites Rhaenyra out to go see a play. Let's go see a show. It's interesting that no one can seemingly, first of all, that one, Viserys's sores and the various cuts that are becoming infected because of him sitting on the throne are just getting worse. It's not gotten better over the years. And that two, it seems like the household staff can't do anything about it.

And that this was a moment almost of escape from the constant pain of ruling for Viserys. Where it's kind of like if you could somehow forget the vast age and power difference, like a kind of sweet moment between husband and wife. Yeah, that's exactly how I felt. It's like if it weren't for all of the extenuating circumstances, this might actually be kind of lovely. But then, you know, to go straight from that essentially to the next scene where...

the staff comes to Alison and says, the king needs you. And she's like, the hour is quite late. It's just like, oh God, this isn't going to be good. She tries to get out of it and it's clear that she can't. Yeah. It's like not a consensual situation. No, it's not. There's no like, hey, it's late. I'm going to sleep now. I don't want to do that. Yeah. That's not at all an option for her. And meanwhile, Rhaenyra and Daemon are out. And this is kind of...

kind of a moment probably of the most pure freedom Rhaenyra has felt maybe in her life. Yes, it was really interesting in that context. It's, you know, we haven't seen much of like town in this show so far. I mean, we saw the city guard in the first episode going crazy. But other than that, we haven't really seen a lot outside the palace walls. And I think you're right. Speaking of escape, like

It does seem like she's just having a great time. She gets to have some drinks. Nobody knows who she is. You know, she's completely free of her responsibilities. She's just partying.

What did you make of Damon being like, haven't seen my niece in four or five years? She's looking pretty good. Thinking about taking her to a play that directly criticizes her and then a sex club. Yeah, the sex club I found a lot more problematic than the play. I mean, because to a certain extent, the play, you could argue, is like you need to know what people are saying. Yeah, just if you will.

Their wants are of no consequence. They're of great consequence if you expect to rule them one day.

It's helpful for you to be informed about where everybody's at when you're, you know, at this point, the current heir. But yeah, once we get to the sex club and he's like, fucking is a pleasure, you see? It's sort of like, oh, oh dear, we're doing this. It's like, it's happening. Gosh. Yeah. I think there are so many layers beyond the extremely problematic one of incest when it comes to Damon and Rhaenyra.

And I would love to unpack that more with you, actually, because part of me is like, to a certain extent, wouldn't Viserys be sort of relieved that like, doesn't it actually potentially maybe solve a lot of his problems if Daemon and Rhaenyra just get married? You would think, you know, but yes and no. Yes. In the sense that what you're saying is double down on strength. Everybody's scared of Daemon. Right. And Rhaenyra gives us the kind of wisdom to rule. Especially if they're into each other. Right. Oh,

Although like Rhaenyra hasn't really displayed the wisdom to rule that yet. You know, I don't mean to undercut like what she's done on Dragonstone, et cetera, but she certainly would be like the cooling element to the hotness of Daemon's temper. That said, and I think Viserys and the realm is rightly concerned that one, this would put Daemon down.

an inch from power. And two, because Viserys chose Rhaenyra and that is going to be on some level an unpopular choice or a choice that people are going to quibble with, it will be important to forge an alliance. And unfortunately, the way we do that in this world is through weddings that nobody wants to have. So I see an angle there.

But I think in both cases, you'd need to prepare for, you know, what that wedding match is going to be. And I don't think the realm is necessarily prepared for a Damon and Rhaenyra match. I think a lot of people would be really threatened by it. I think that's dangerous. I could see that. Why do you think Damon just peaced out mid-couple? My read on why he left is that I guess I think he might actually love her.

And it's too much. Like, he can't... The level of vulnerability and actually, actually coupling is something that he's not ready for. So that was my guess, is that if you think about it, they have a great rapport, right? I mean...

aside from the whole incest thing and the age that, you know, like all of those things aside. He's been given her jewelry for a while. Yeah. And she's still wearing that necklace. That must have been nice for him to see. They seem like they get a kick out of each other legitimately, you know? I agree. So, yeah, I actually wouldn't be that surprised if he genuinely did have feelings for her and he's not used to

coupling with people he has feelings for you know and he doesn't know what to do with that yeah i think you're right about that i think it's typical like damon like a fuck boy strategy exactly yeah it's the fuck boy strategy like oh oh shit i actually am too into this i gotta go oh no i have these feelings now what is that a song by the weekend oh i gotta leave you know like exactly

So as a book reader, I assume you knew this was coming, right? This coupling, as Otto calls it later? I did. Coupling. You enter my bedchamber accusing my daughter of something. Now speak it plainly. Damon and Rhaenyra were seen together in the bowels of a pleasure den. Coupling.

Oh my God. The way he like literally gestures, like go on. Otto, I'm eating my yogurt and granola, a healthy start to the day, which Alison has asked me to do because of my cholesterol and you barge in here and are talking about my daughter. So like what? What did you do? Details. They were in the cellar of a pleasure house. Okay. But what were they doing? Coupling. Oh,

So, yeah, did that play out the way you thought it would based on having read the book? Yeah, I think for the most part, yes. This was something that we understood was coming. And it feels so much more problematic seeing it. Yeah. Well, right. It's funny because it's like, yeah, we all know Targaryens are incestuous. Right. We get that they do this. Like conceptually, we have discussed this, but actually seeing it is like, oh, God, this

I mean, there's also the angle, too, of like it also puts Viserys and Rhaenyra's kind of sensitivity on certain issues, like the age of her potential suitors, be they old or be they young, in a different context because it's like, listen, the kettle is very, very black and you are pointing fingers in every direction, Targaryen family. You're surrounded by pots. Yeah.

So, speaking of juxtaposition of scenes, we've talked about how intense it is, you know, Alicent being called in and Rhaenyra partying. But then going straight from this, you know, sex den where Rhaenyra and Daemon have this moment and then Rhaenyra going back and having this, like, I was really struck by how kind of sweet and innocent the scene with Ser Criston turned out to be.

Yeah. Another one that we felt was coming. Okay. So this is fascinating too, because in the books it's known that quote unquote something happened between them. Oh, interesting. Okay. But the rumors abound. You don't know if they couple? But we don't know if they coupled.

But yeah, it's unknown what happened. Like there were various rumors. One is that she had a crush on him and he spurned her. Another is that they hooked up and that it was her that was in the driver's seat. Another one is that it was him that was in the driver's seat. But this was confirmation of some stuff that we knew happened in the books. And I thought you were exactly right. It was very sweet because here are two people that are...

in the same age range. Like giggling while untying their shoes. Like it would just, yeah. It was really sweet. Not to mention like the iconic fairy tale aspects of it. This handsome knight in shining armor whose job is legitimately to protect this princess. Yeah. It felt very fairytale.

fairy tale in that way. And it like juxtaposed with the rest of what happened that evening. And really all the other romance, like quote unquote romance. Yeah. Couplings we've seen on this show. Coupling. It just gets me. But yeah, it was really sweet. One issue I did have with that scene is how she knew how to take off armor so well. Thank you. Because...

It's not insignificant amount of armor. I mean, like we had to start with the back plate that took out the gorget, the thing over the neck. Right. And like weird buttons and hooks. And it's like, how did she know, though? I know. You'd think he'd be like, hey, do you want to like if you want to make some drinks, I'll be over there in 35 minutes when I'm out of this. I thought that, you know, equally as sweet.

was when Cole is sent by the queen to summon Rhaenyra the next day, and it's the first time they've seen each other after. She is so happy to see him.

In a way that felt really just like authentically sweet. Yeah. It felt like a moment that you don't see often in this world where it's just like... Right. She caught some feelings for this really good looking guy who clearly like feels a way for her and she can't wait to see him again. Yeah. Question, Greta. So let's assume that Damon has legitimate feelings for Rhaenyra. Okay. And it certainly seems like...

whatever was going on there, Rhaenyra was reciprocating, but that the kind of feelings that she has, say, for Ser Criston, are different and maybe a little bit more authentic and pure. Do you have one you prefer? Do you have a suitor you prefer? Oh, who would I ship? Is that what you're asking me? Who you shippin'? Uncle Daemon?

Or Sir Kristen. I mean, okay, well, like, you know, I think we can all admit that the incest thing, even if we knew that was going to happen, was pretty fucking creepy to watch. Yeah. You know I adore Matt Smith. I think the haircut is really nice. I still feel weird about that situation. Who knows if it's, you know, the fact that I was raised to believe incest is wrong. Yeah.

Let's take out that they are. That they're related to each other? Say, directly related by blood. Let's just take that part out of it for a second. Man, you just keep asking about just removing these massive foundational issues. Let me take out this massive detail and see if you still feel the same way. So that aside, for that family, I will say that for that family. Yeah, yeah, yeah, of course.

Yeah, generations of tradition around this. It happens. That is normal. Yeah. That is the kind of culture of that family. And even within Westeros, where such things are really, really, really strongly unlawful and frowned upon. You know, Jaime and Cersei could never reveal the truth of their relationship because they'd both be executed, you know. But there's different rules for Targaryens, and there always have been. This is a vile accusation, isn't it?

You Targaryens do have queer customs. That's one way to put it. Incest aside, I'm like working to shove this massive thing aside. Yeah, yeah. I still think, I mean, even just to compare the origins of each of those little interactions, like, Daemon takes her to a sex club. This is like her first exposure to all this stuff. Not a great. It's like,

pretty skeezy, you know? And for him to just leave her the way he does too is like, it's not like, hey, are you okay? How are you going to get home? Are, you know, like, have you had enough water? Do you need a Gatorade? Like, you need me to call you an Uber? Anything. Like, no, he's just like, bye.

Right. Whereas, you know, with Sir Kristen, as we talked, like, I just think there's such a sweetness to that interaction. It's age appropriate. They genuinely seem into each other. I wish we've had more dialogue between them. I guess you could argue that the dialogue between her and Damon. I mean, there's just been more of it so far in the series, but I'm still shipping Kristen. What about you?

Yeah, I think it's honestly the only choice. I mean, like, obviously with Kristen as well, there are certain details that we'd have to ignore, namely that he is bound by sworn oath to defend the king and his family and never take, you know, never take a wife and all that stuff. This actually can't happen. Like, it's against the law. Also, it's the princess. They'll cut off his head easily for this. Well, and then there's just like a number of conversations between, you know, a variety of people, um,

All trying to figure out who and whether Rhaenyra fucked, which is just like, OK, I guess that's what the rest of it was just a lot of hot goss, I guess, you know. A lot of gossip, a real game of telephone going on here. And I thought it really ironic that, you know, for whatever did happen between Rhaenyra and Daemon. Mm hmm.

that nobody knows about Cole and Rhaenyra. I love that so much. It was fun. That everybody thinks they know what happened, but actually they have no idea what actually happened. Right. And something did happen, but just not with the person everybody's worried about. Yeah, the scene especially when Alicent summons Rhaenyra...

and confronts her about it. And Rhaenyra is like, oh, no, no, no, no, no. You know, I mean, I could see another version of that scene where she's like, but guess what did happen? It was really fun. I can't wait to tell you. I know, right? If they were still friends, they could do that. I will say, Alicent has had Rhaenyra's back in so many ways over the course of this show so far. She has never not had Rhaenyra's back. She has never not had her back. I mean, aside from marrying her dad, but...

extenuating circumstances. Right. Not a thing that she had that much choice in. Yeah. That said, she has her back so much in this episode. She does. It's very true. She goes to Viserys after Viserys is hot after getting the coupling news from Otto and is just like, It is not in Rhaenyra's nature to be deceitful. I cannot say the same for your brother. You believe he lied? How often does he speak the pure truth?

I was really, really touched by the way Alicent went to bat for Rhaenyra not needing to, not being asked to for no reason other than. Yeah. That's her friend. Yeah, totally. Well, and then Viserys drags Daemon in. Literally drags. Literally drags. There's that moment when Daemon says, When we were Rhaenyra's age, we fucked our way through most of the brothels on the Street of Silk. We were young men. She's just a girl.

Your niece. Rhaenyra's a woman grown. And it's the whole thing, right? It's like, yeah, we can do it because we were guys. Yeah. But she can't do it because what it would mean to the realm now. How can I? Who will take her now? Is a conversation that was being had. And in fact, all of that led to that final scene where Grand Maester Melos delivers the plan T to Rhaenyra's room. Yeah.

I hate how much I love that joke, Jason. What? It's legitimately Moontie. I guess we should talk about the pact that is sealed at the end of this when Viserys at Alicent's urging...

decides that whatever the truth, he is going to double down on his relationship with Rhaenyra and his dedication to raising her up on the throne, but that she's going to have to get married to Laenor Velaryon in order to seal up that alliance between the two most powerful houses in the realm. And then Rhaenyra, showing, I think, some really great moxie and an understanding of what her position is now, removes an enemy of hers from the board and says, okay, deal, but

Otto Hightower, who has been working against me from legitimately day one. A vulture. He needs to be up out of here. A vulture. Yeah. On your throne. Get him out of here. And Viserys goes for it. He agrees to it. Yeah. Well, and he seems legitimately furious when he really starts to think through Otto's own rise to power. Absolutely. And it's an interesting balance he strikes, too, because he's like, Alicent, help me through this.

some really tough times but now I see that you put Alice into my path yes even to call him out on that yeah and then he closes with the crown and the realm both owe you a debt that can never be repaid but I can no longer trust your judgment

And takes the pin out. A devastating moment for Otto, who I would assume will go back to Old Town and continue to work extremely hard to raise his grandson Aegon to the throne. So you don't think he's off the board yet? Oh, I think he's going to stick around. It's like he's on the 10-yard line about to score a touchdown. Like he's not going to give up now. And it's very, very clear from that scene we saw in the previous episode with his brother Hobart that...

The whole family is pulling in that direction. Get Aegon on the throne. Get him on the throne. Yeah. Oh, one thing I think is worth talking about is the moment when Viserys has Rhaenyra to his room and she sees the cat's ball blade, the Valyrian dagger, which we remember from Game of Thrones as being the weapon used against Bran Stark in that attempted assassination. Right. And that later set a whole bunch of events in motion that we saw over the course of that series. Yeah.

She sees it in a brazier and it's being heated. And then Viserys says, look, there's writing on it, which one of Aegon the Conqueror's pyromancers put on the blade. And it basically says...

So this is essentially in writing form the thing that Viserys had told Rhaenyra about. And the prince that was promised is, along with Azor Ahai...

A kind of messianic hero prophecy that has to do, many think and many interpret it as, a kind of final showdown between good and evil, light and darkness that would involve this prince that was promised would be kind of like the figure upon which everything hinges. Now, this being...

Game of Thrones and Westeros, there's a lot of questions about interpretation. But I think this is a really big deal. Do we know how gender declensions work in High Valyrian? Exactly a point that many have made in the world. Ha ha!

No, I'm dead serious. Like this is a thing that many have brought up. It's like, well, yeah, because that is exactly a point that has been made by historic fictional histories within this world. So there's a lot of wiggle room here, all of which is to say, gosh, how ironic that

King Joffrey, himself who shouldn't have been king, an absolute dummy. Oh, God, the worst. Gave away the prophetic dagger, the only record of why Aegon the Conqueror came to Westeros because he wanted to kill this kid that he didn't even know because he was mad at him. Like, just kind of sums up King Joffrey's rule in one thing. Dun, dun, dun. Man, what an episode. Is that all the things? Should we get to the death count?

We have at least one child. Well, he was like a young adult. I'd put him at like 18 or 19. He just looked so young compared to the other guy. R.I.P. to Amos Bracken, if indeed that was who you were. I think that that's correct. He's Amos Bracken, R.I.P., and the Bracken and Blackwood feud continues. Is there anybody else or was that really it? I think that was it. I think that was it. Wow. Okay. Low death count.

We are so excited for today's guest because we are joined by the talented Fabian Frankel. You may know Fabian as Dominique Renalot in The Serpent and one of Emilia Clarke's romantic interests in Last Christmas. But now you know him as Sir Kristen Cole in the HBO original House of the Dragon. Fabian, welcome to the official Game of Thrones podcast. Thank you very much. Thanks for having me. So how would you describe your character, Sir Kristen Cole?

Well, Kristen is a knight born the son of a steward in Blackhaven who, by hook or by crook, ends up becoming kind of an integral part in the Dance of the Dragons and the sort of rise of the Targaryen family. What motivates Kristen? You mentioned, you know, coming from the Dornish Marches, being this kind of natural born son of the steward and kind of being outside of things. What is it that motivates Kristen? Yeah.

It's funny because we've been asked about our motivations a lot and I think that opposed to some of the other characters in the show who...

I have been born in this world of incredible decadence and ambition and Machiavellian behavior. He sort of takes each day as it comes. So I feel for him, it's like this day is to compete in this tournament and do the best I can in this tournament. I don't know that he sort of has any deep motivation other than to sort of do well by himself, by his father, by his family.

It's interesting to hear you say that because I feel like so much of Game of Thrones and House of the Dragon is about like a lot of characters with with a lot of different competing and sometimes kind of nefarious intentions. But it really does seem like your character is just like a good dude.

Well, thank you very much, Greta. You're welcome. I'm glad someone thinks so because when we were at Comic-Con where I last saw Jason, we were like all stood taking pictures outside and someone went, oh yeah, that dude plays Christian Cole. I hate that guy. LAUGHTER

And that's like your first time like out meeting people as part of this role. Yeah. And I really thought like, oh, I hope he's talking about Kristen Cole. It would really suck if he was talking about me here. So I'm glad that you sort of feel that. But I mean, I think that going in, his intentions are good. You know, I certainly don't think that Kristen has some ulterior motives or, you know, as I said, like Machiavellian desires to sort of achieve greatness in this quite complex family dynamic.

Take us back into the audition process. What was that like? And at what point did you realize what you were going out for? Well, I don't know how everyone else had it because I've heard so many varying stories of other people's that I got sent dummy sides, like a dummy script. And I don't know what it was from. The character was called Sir Clint. That's all I remember. And I didn't really know anything.

And my friend who I did the audition with, like, has this really Shakespearean, and he can do that thing that sort of Reece Ifans does with his voice. And so he would just say Sir Clint in this kind of, like, really clipped, like, way. And all I can really remember at the audition is just him saying Sir Clint all the time. And, like, it felt like I was doing the tape more for him to sort of experiment with his rendition of saying Sir Clint than me to get this role done.

In any way. Yeah. So that's kind of my memory of the audition. You mentioned the tournament. Kristen starts the series in episode one with the bang competing against Damon in the finals of that tournament. What was that like filming that?

Just really kind of like all the things that you like think about when you think of Game of Thrones or sort of happening in real time on this set. I sort of was like, wow, I'm in armor. Matt Smith is standing in a blonde wig opposite me. They've built like the most elaborate stands with like thousands of, well, it felt like thousands of extras. I'm sure there weren't, but it really felt like it was so many people and they were cheering and screaming and like, so it was really like, wow, this is like prehistoric.

pretty surreal that this is happening right now. Yeah, I was going to ask you about that because it's been really interesting to learn about some of the first scenes people shot. Obviously, it isn't linear, but it seems like in so many of these cases, y'all are just like getting thrown into the deep end and figuring it out. Yeah, yeah. I just remember the first ever day of filming being like bitterly nervous, like so really like looking at everyone going like, I can't be, there's got to be something, there's made a mistake, like it's not possible that I'm here. Yeah.

And we got called to set and we arrive and we were on this place called St. Michael's Mount, which is this incredible island, which I guess doubles for, I want to say Dragonstone, I might be wrong, but somewhere really beautiful. And it was like this big group scene and they sort of like put the camera on everyone. And it felt like, it was like, here's a closeup on Paddy. Then there's a closeup on Matt. Then there's a closeup on Steven. Everyone was just knocking them out of the park, like one after the other. And then it finally got around and,

the camera finally got around to me and I swear to God, I literally forgot how to act. I couldn't do it. I didn't know what to do. And I remember I had like a line. I don't remember what the line was. I wish I could remember what it was, but it was like essentially like me being told off for something, my character being told off something and then being told that I was on night duty. I had to stay up all night and,

All I had to do was like roll my eyes. That was the basis of the sort of scene. And I swear to God, the faces that I pulled in that scene, literally, and I remember going, this is it. I've totally fucked it. And to make matters worse, I went like, maybe they haven't seen it. You know, maybe they just like, maybe their attention was on someone else. Miguel marched through 250 background artists to go, Fabian, what's up? What are you doing, buddy? What's going on with your face, mate?

It was just like the worst fucking experience of my life. I can't even tell you. Well, I wouldn't have known watching you perform anyway. Well, that's a relief, I suppose. From the beginning of their relationship, Kristen and Raniere, it seems like there's some sort of spark. Is that the case for Kristen? Or is he just like all about the job?

But I think that like, Alison's favor has already been asked for. Ray Neese's favor has already been asked for. So like, I don't know that he's going into this tournament going, I'm going to ask for Rhaenyra's favor. I think that the fact that Rhaenyra is Daemon's niece and Daemon has refused to shake his hand at the end of the bout, it's sort of Kristen going, you know, I'm going to go and do this thing that feels kind of rock and roll.

I'm going to shoot my shot. I'm going to shoot my shot. But yeah, I don't know that. I mean, she's obviously really beautiful, but she's also like 14 years old. So I'm just not sure that like, you know, at that point he's going like, well, there's the woman of my dreams. That's a good point. So we have to talk about the coupling that takes place in this episode between you and Rhaenyra. I

I thought it was really fascinating. And Jason and I even kind of talked about this in our recap. There's a sweetness and an innocence to that scene that I think especially in juxtaposition to like the weird sex dungeon situation that we see like just before that between Rhaenyra and Daemon. Yes. It's really interesting. And I mean, it's something you don't, we haven't seen a whole lot of in any Thrones episodes, really like a, just an innocent kind of straightforward, well, not necessarily straightforward, but just like sort of a lovely, um,

relationship, you know, like I think there's sort of like a romance to it that really carries through. You had an intimacy coordinator for that, right?

Yeah, we had an amazing intimacy coordinator, Miriam, who helped us with that. But there was also like, I think that Millie and I wanted so much to not just make another sex scene that feels, you know, completely gratuitous and is like sort of glamorizing the kind of incredibly muscular tanned bodies, sort of, you know, that whole thing, sweat glistening off their skin type thing. Because, you know, like the reality of,

you know sex is that especially early on it's pretty awkward Millie and I were like imagine how awkward it would have been having to get that armor off I mean even just taking our shoes off every day takes us like 20 minutes each so I was like god just think about the actual time it would have taken for these kids to get their clothes off in this scene and like that alone was like a major thing I was like in the sort of Hollywoodified version of it the clothes come off in two seconds but the reality of that armor is like it ain't coming off in two seconds

There's like three people helping me get out of that arm a day to day. And we sort of wanted to just like find all of the complications of that and not shy away from them. And Claire, our director, was amazing. And we sort of, I remember it was just off the back, normal people had just come out and they had done sex scenes so brilliantly in that show when we were going like, God, wouldn't it be cool if there was an element of like it feeling genuinely out.

how it is in a world that is, you know, so well known for sort of not so much humanity in the sex scenes particularly. And, you know, I think Millie feels similarly at least that we really wanted to make it feel like it was a couple of kids trying to figure out how to do this thing. Who genuinely like each other and are excited to be with each other. Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. Yeah, yeah, 100%. How long does it take to get off the honor? What's the ETA on that?

Jason, I want to tell you that it's sort of like a real quick thing, but I'll put it this way. Like if I need to go to the loo, that's like, can we clear set for 25 minutes? Fabian needs to go to the loo. So just so I can get out of the armor or like Millie had the same thing. It was like Millie and I were talking about this. It was like between Millie sort of like needing to like,

Like she was talking about having like having to air dry her costume because it's so hot and sweaty in all those rooms. And then me having to just get out of this armor. There's like 73 straps. I mean, it looks really cool. It looks super cool. But there are like 73 straps. So it was like, yeah, it's long. And what is going on in Kristen's head and heart afterwards?

after this takes place. Yeah, I'm curious about that too, partly because, you know, I mean, you talked about sort of where he's at in terms of the tourney. Obviously, things have changed a lot by that point. Sure. You know, between how much they've interacted. I mean, she's older, you know. Yeah, I think that there's a scene that's not in the show anymore that we shot, but it's like, annoyingly, it's not to do with anything other than it was a camera thing that sort of happened, but where Kristen Cole recites his vows of the Kingsguard. And I just...

I remember like how much in that scene was it was a Viserys and Kristen Cole. And I remember like doing that scene with Paddy and feeling like that was such a momentous moment in like that character's life. And then to, you know, juxtapose that with the scene where he's taking off the white cloak to sort of sleep with Rhaenyra and what that must have meant for him.

to actually take that risk and to commit to that and knowing that there is no going back, you know, as quite a principled man, a soldier, to do that, it's sort of like as big a sacrifice as one could possibly make. So I think that after that, there's obviously a real mix of incredibly complex feelings that he's probably having that sort of ebb and flow with how the rest of that episode and the further episodes go.

I want to go back to a moment in episode three when Rhaenyra and Kristen are in the woods before the pig killing. Rhaenyra asks Kristen, do you think the realm will ever accept me? And he gives a kind of noncommittal,

sort of not great answer, which is essentially they have, you know, they have no choice but to. Does he think she'll be a good queen? Does Kristen think that Rhaenyra would be a good queen? A hundred percent. I think that he thinks she'd be an amazing queen. He just doesn't think that they will. Yeah. That's what he's saying there. I think he's saying like, what I think doesn't matter. What you think doesn't matter. She's asked him, do you think the realm will ever accept me as their queen? You know, what's he going to say there? Yeah. It's,

it's a lie if he goes, yeah, everyone's going to be thrilled about it. Like, you know, in this world where like, you know, men have always been the choice. You're the first ever woman. It's a controversial thing that's happened. So to deny the controversy of that to her would be dishonest. And, you know, something that Millie and I talked about a lot,

at least Millie said a lot, to me at least, was that she feels that Kristen really is her confidant and he's the only person in this whole thing who sort of isn't out there looking out for themselves. There's no vested interest for Kristen. He doesn't have any grand designs on the throne or anything. You know, he's just like, ultimately, his life is her. Mm-hmm.

So he's being honest. Yeah. So you mentioned Sir Kristen being an outsider, I think in a number of different ways in court. I would love to hear a little more about like conversations you may have had with showrunners about what that looked like and what it would have felt like for him as a character and how you kind of tried to embody that.

You know, the big thing, obviously, that was put in, you know, is that he's Dornish. And it's the first thing that's, you know, basically the first thing that's said about him in the entirety of the show. He takes off his helmet and Alison goes, you know, he's Dornish. So it's very much like from the get-go, it's like, okay, he's not like everyone else. He doesn't look like everyone else. And so because of that, he will always be an outsider, just based off the color of his skin or the color of his hair or, you know, whatever specifically identifies him as Dornish to them.

Mig talked a lot about Kristen Cole being a thug. Oh, wow. Which I thought was really interesting. Yeah, it was. It's funny because I'd never thought about it that way. And Mig talked about Kristen Cole being a thug and then learning not to be a thug, but there always being a thuggishness in him. And I thought that was so interesting because obviously I'd never thought of him that way in my head and the way that he set up.

is not like, you know, what our vision in Western culture of what thugs look like isn't Kristen Cole. So it's very hard to like disassociate what you see as a thug in the 21st century or what movies have decided are thugs for you versus what the equivalent of a thug would have been in this kind of medieval equivalent of time. Mm-hmm.

And so we talked a lot about that and it was just like certain scenes, especially later on in the show where Kristen has, he's definitely understood his place in this world more so than he does in the first five episodes of this show. That makes sense. Well, he's quite out of place and higher in terms of station than he probably ever imagined, right? 100%. He was this soldier kind of on the outside of society over in Black Haven. All of a sudden he's...

in the inner circles of the crown princess of various other royal places. That's gotta be really unmooring for him. Yeah. And also, you know, what's funny sort of like saying about that is that I remember Ryan and I and Miguel having conversations about like how he stood and his physicality and like,

what being in that position does to you physically that like you know if you think how still you have to be and for how long you have to be still and that you are essentially like to some extent a piece of art like on the wall you are just a statuesque figure that is there like

representing sort of the power of the crown but for 90% of what these knights of the Kings guards lives are is essentially standing on duty to attention you are you know yeah the magic bits that we write about other bits where they're fighting in the bits where they're killing in the bits where they're saving the day but the reality of that is that's not what they're doing you know that's why films like jarhead are so amazing because jarhead tells the story about like a bunch of soldiers who don't ever get to fire their weapons like that

to me is like that's kind of what actually being a knight of the Kingsguard is you know God that's so intense what was it like to you know prep for battle and you know I mean I imagine you had to like get in some sort of shape for a role like this too right yeah I got in some shape I'll tell you I got in like what I thought was pretty decent shape yeah

Yeah, I don't mean to make any assumptions here. No, no. I mean, the armor just is like, basically, no matter how strong you are, the armor has a weird way of like really just figuring out where your weak points are. I sort of remember Graham McTavish's big thing was that his feet just hurt like on a constant, like.

And I don't know if he had weak feet or bad shoes. In my situation, it was my shoulders. So I just don't know whether I had weak shoulders or like a dodgy shoulder strap. But like, yeah, you just sort of have to get in some form of shape. But again, it's like a different thing. It's not that bodybuilder shape. It's like a utilitarian shape. Like what muscles do I need to wear this armor for as long as I need it? Like that's what you end up realizing much so rather than like, what can I get like a six pack and like have defined pecs?

Do you know what I mean? Yeah, it's more lean than like Marvel Cinematic Universe. Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. In that opening tournament scene, you see Kristen wielding a mace. What was the weapons training like?

Oh mate, the mace is like the greatest nightmare weapon of all time. It's like, I can't even tell you how stressful that weapon is. If you imagine like it's a ball on a stick that is going to rebound off of people into you. So like actually the majority of your training is spent going like, if I throw it this way, do I have to move my hips to the left or to the right? It's like not cool. It's not rock and roll, the learning the mace thing.

It was like, okay, honestly, at times I was like, wow, I should have learned some Shakira style dancing to get this right.

You're also like, thank God I'm wearing this helmet because otherwise I would have like impaled myself. Literally. I impaled myself. My shins at the end of those fights were like, I was wearing shin pads. Honestly, by the end of it, I was padded to the nines. I had pads everywhere. By the end of it, production, production were like, we're actually, the pads in the whole of Leavesden Studios are gone. Fabian's wearing them everywhere. Oh my God. Fabian, I have to, it's very funny to picture how generally terrified you sound.

I know. It's not as cool as you really want to kind of make it. Yeah, it's really shifting the way I'm perceiving this character. I know. I'm actually really worried about what I'm putting out into the ethosphere right now. No, I think it's super charming. I think it's very endearing. I hope that to all the listeners here that you realize I'm also incredibly tough and sort of, you know, threatening and like, you know, you don't want, don't fuck with me. Yeah, you definitely also seem menacing. I will confirm that for the people. Yeah, thank you very much. Yeah.

So what was your familiarity with Game of Thrones before you got this role? Like, had you watched the series? Yeah, I loved it. Absolutely loved it. Thought it was just the best. It was like unmissable when I was, because it was just like at its peak when I was at acting school. It was like, that was the show that everyone was just watching.

And I remember kids from my drama school getting like two lines in Game of Thrones. I was going to say, you probably knew a lot of people who were in it too then, right? Well, it was always just like, yeah, mate, I've got two scenes. And it would be like, you tune in six months later and you'd be like, holy shit, that's Joe in that scene. That's five seconds. It's so, it was literally one of them. It'd be like, mate, if you just pause it right there, you see that knight there next to that dragon's face behind him in the mud. I know that guy. That's my right arm.

That's what it was like. That's funny. So yeah, it was really weird. I watched the second episode yesterday and like, I didn't know that they were keeping the Thrones soundtrack. Oh yeah. I didn't know that. Totally. I thought they were going to do something different. So then I was watching that being like, holy shit. It's like the same song. My name is like right there.

This is so surreal right now. Come on. That's really cool. Yeah. So you go through the audition process with the mystery sides, and then at some point you realize what it is. And you mentioned being a Game of Thrones fan. So what was that moment like when you sussed it out? You figured out what it was. I'll tell you, I figured out what it was five minutes before I got offered the part. LAUGHTER

To get into the real story is kind of an amazing, weird thing. But basically a friend of mine who I sort of knew when I was a kid works at HBO and

And she, like, had found out that Miguel and Ryan were considering me for this role. Essentially, it got back to me from her that I was being considered for the role in the new Game of Thrones. I don't even know if Ryan and Miguel know that story. I called my agent. I was like, dude, I've just heard from, like, my friend. I thought that was a really weird call. I just thought it was a really weird call. They're like, I'm in consideration for this thing. And he was like, fine.

Okay, so we weren't going to tell you because we didn't want to stress you out. But yes, you are in consideration for the role. And actually, Ryan and Miguel would like to Zoom with you tonight. I mean, that's how fast it happened. Wow. As in like, I found out like two hours before Ryan and Miguel...

and I got on the call and then got on the call with them. Like, remember going home, drinking tequila. And also in my head, it was never a meeting for an offer. It was like a meeting to just talk about the show.

Cause I didn't know anything about it at this point. I mean, I did, I really knew nothing. I didn't know the character. I didn't know what the name of the part was. I didn't know how many episodes it was going to be. So I just thought like, all right, it's a chat. And so they kind of spoke to me about it for like 25 minutes and why they thought that I had done like a nice job on the audition tape. They told me the thing and I was like, God, that sounds amazing. What a gig for whoever gets it. I wish them the best. Great meeting you guys. Thank you so much for your time.

thank you for all your time and I can't wait to see the prequel and then they went like would you do it and I just remember being completely like bewildered and thinking like in what sense would I do it kind of hypothetically speaking like yeah right

if 17 other people can't do it. Yeah, yes. Like if they can't do it, maybe you'd like me to step in for them. That's a possibility. And then I remember watching this interview about like talking yourself out of a role. I remember who said, I think it was Daniel Kaluuya, but sort of saying this thing about like, get out basically. Like stop, don't, once you've done the audition, just get out of the room. And I remember being like, if I keep talking, they're going to fucking be like, right, this guy needs. So I was like,

I was like, just fucking shut up and get off this call right fucking now. So I got off the call. I was like, sweet. All right, bye. Take care now. Shut the laptop. And was like. Tequila, tequila, tequila. Yeah, tequila, tequila, tequila. Call my mother tequila. Call my agents tequila. And then they sent me all five episodes that night. And I read them in one sitting that night. Wow. That's amazing. So the show is out now. And are you able to like process everything?

that that's you, that this is happening, that there are millions of people watching this show. Yeah, like literal millions. No, absolutely not. Like, like kind of, but not really. I was saying I watched the second episode yesterday and I really just watched it and was like, this is like such a cool episode of TV. And I kind of, I don't know, you sort of disassociate your involvement in it

I can't really explain that. Maybe, do you ever watch back your own podcasts and you go like, wow, is that kind of what I'm like? I try not to, honestly. It's better not to, I think. Yeah, you can't. That's what I'm saying. It's better not to. So I sort of like keep one eye open in the bits I'm in. But the nice thing is about one and two is it's like, you know, it's really sort of establishing the Targaryens and them. And like, and I think that, you know, I was just watching even like Millie's

performance in the second episode yesterday and particularly I thought her scene with Eve Best I thought was just I was watching that just going like that's like a couple of real heavy hitters just going at it I was like wow it's just like that is not what I'm doing right then you show up you're like who's that

Who's that guy? Yeah. And then I'm like, wow, that guy doesn't he doesn't look like he belongs. He's in the wrong show. Not true. Yeah, man. I think we got to work on this self-esteem, dude. You're doing great. Thanks very much. Thank you. I'm also like now. Now I'm really overthinking. I'm going, wow, maybe I'm shattering the illusion of maybe I should never do interviews and just kind of let Kristen Cole sort of be the myth that I think he deserves to be.

What's great about it is it lets people get a peek of how much passion and creativity and really a lot in work goes into every aspect of this. I think that's one of the most interesting and fascinating things about TV and this show in particular. It's just like how hard everybody is going for it. Oh, yeah, man. I can't say enough about sort of like how much work went into making this show what it is like today.

you know, all jokes aside, it genuinely takes like the world of people putting in like everything, hours and time and like giving up time that they could be spending with their families and going over and shooting nights. And like, and it really was like, I've very rarely ever been on a, on a set as warm as this, like the crew, the way that they were and the fact that we were sort of all in it in the middle of COVID and,

like, yeah, it was just like one of those things you sort of go like, wow, it may never happen again that you get this sort of atmosphere, you know, from a crew standpoint on the job like this. That's really cool. Well, Fabian, thank you so much. This was very fun to talk with you. It was really great. Yeah. Thank you guys so much. Yeah. No, I won't be listening back, but I want you to know. Same dude. Same.

Yeah, we won't be either. So we really have no idea of how this went. Yeah, no, but it felt good in the moment. And that's what counts. It felt good in the moment. And that's kind of what counts for now. I think we got to just call it a win. Exactly. Thanks so much, Greta and Jason. Really, thank you very much. Thank you.

That was delightful. Delightful is the word I was going to use, too. What a lovely human. Inside and out. What a really, really charming and thoughtful man. Yeah. Well, and it's just so like I don't think I'm going to be able to watch him the same way knowing how terrified he was the entire time. It's pretty hilarious. You know, I was thinking about the parallels with Cole himself. You know, Cole is experiencing this

meteoric and kind of unexpected rise to the lofty heights. And Fabian is experiencing the same thing in a different kind of way, which is... It just must be so intense. It does sound extremely intense. Yeah. I think he brought a lot of really interesting nuance to a character who honestly hasn't had a whole lot of dialogue over the last four episodes either. So great conversation. Super fun. I could get out of my armor in 10 minutes. You think so? I...

Yeah, for sure. I also make five minute pancakes in two and a half minutes. So I'm just good at that. Are those good? I'm worried about the quality of the pancakes in that instance. And the armor, frankly. You can eat them. You can eat them. Okay. Okay. Let's call it. That's all for this episode. Don't forget to join us again next Sunday night. We are going to be discussing House of the Dragon episode five with writer and executive producer of the show, Sarah Hess.

And of course, we want to hear from you. Don't forget to leave a rating and review on your podcast player of choice. And you can find us on the Game of Thrones and House of the Dragon social media handles. And you can find me on Twitter at NETW3RK. And you can find me at Greta M. Johnson on Twitter and Instagram. The official Game of Thrones podcast, House of the Dragon, is produced by HBO Max in collaboration with iHeartRadio. This podcast is hosted by Jason Concepcion. And Greta Johnson.

Our executive producer is Molly Socha. Our supervising producer is Nakia Swinton. Our lead sound engineer is Matt Stiller. This episode was edited by Sierra Spreen. Our producer is Jason Concepcion in association with Crooked Media. Special thanks to Michael Gluckstadt, Allison Cohen, Kenya Reyes, and Becky Rowe from the HBO Max podcast team. And Ashley Morton, Dana Froome, and Liz Keating at HBO Creative Marketing.