Hello, everyone. Welcome to another episode of Date Yourself Instead. Before I dive into today's episode, for those of you who follow me on Instagram, you've seen it. The Dare to Detach Masterclass is the portal to letting go of the bullshit and leveling up your timeline so you could attract miracles and abundance into your life.
attract new job opportunities, a relationship, whatever you want. You can attract miracles and abundance from this masterclass. Picture this, you wake up from a text from your ex after months of not speaking, but you don't care anymore and you're so grounded because you have done the inner work. You expected it. You go into a coffee shop and someone pays for your coffee because you just attract abundance. You quit your job and find a brand new career you're so passionate about and you're making triple the amount of money you were at your old job
and you upgraded your entire timeline to attract the most luxury experiences. You cannot wait to jump out of bed every day because you're excited to take on every second of the journey. If you're tired of constantly holding on to who or what isn't good for you, the Dare to Detach Masterclass is for you. Remember to use the code SELFLOVE for $20 off the program exclusively for the podcast listeners. You can find the link to the program in the show notes or on Instagram at Dare to Detach. I cannot wait for you to join us and let's dive into today's episode.
Whoa, that was so inspiring. That was such a good pitch. Sweating. I was like... Sweating. I never wear sweaters in here. I'm literally dying. Okay, so let's dive into today's episode. I am so, so freaking excited because this is my first guest on the podcast. We tried to record this last year and it just didn't work because my microphone was broken and we ended up scrapping the whole episode. I remember this. And I...
I am so, so excited to introduce you to Gemma, who hosts the podcast Psychology of Your 20s. It's literally one of the best podcasts ever. And it's one of the first podcasts I listened to when I started really getting into podcasts. And it's so inspiring. And now she's on the Date Yourself Instead show, which is crazy because you're my first guest ever. My gosh, I'm so honored.
I'm so excited to be here. I'm so excited that you're in New York right now, which is crazy because, okay, Gemma's from Australia and I'll let her introduce herself a little bit if you want to talk about the show. Well, I'm from Australia. I run, I feel like I say that before I even introduce my podcast, but I run The Psychology of Your 20s, which I started two years ago. And it's really interesting because you were also one of my first guests. Yeah. And I remember listening to your show when I went through like a terrible breakup and then I had four
I have friends who are obsessed with Date Yourself instead. And I heard about you and I was like, I'm going to say I kind of manifested that we would be friends. Because I was like, really? I don't think I've told you this. I was like, yeah, I think that this person and I would really get along. I've decided it. And then it was so funny because I'm in New York. I'm never here. First day I'm here. First day I come to the studio.
And the elevator doors are closing. And who walks in but you? Wait, I didn't know that was your first day here. It was my first full day in New York City. Really? Oh my God, that's so funny. Wait, that's crazy. And you walked in and I was like, oh my gosh. And obviously, like, you've been on my show a couple of times now. Like, you're a pretty regular guest. Like, I feel like every... I just released another episode with you the other day because every...
we do is so great. But we've never met in person until the other day. It was insane. I was like, wow. Wait, that's insane. Okay, basically, so we had planned on grabbing dinner regardless. Like I knew Gemma was coming to New York, but we didn't make any plans prior to that at all. I didn't even know she was here yet. I wasn't sure what was going on. And I walked into the podcast studio and I literally see her. Like we're just... Yeah. We like made eyes across the foyer. In the same place. Across the foyer. And I was like, hello.
It was really, really beautiful. It was special. But now I'm here on the show and I'm so excited because I feel like I love talking about dating, but where I'm like now in a relationship, right? Yeah. So it's like, I feel like I've stopped doing like episodes about like noticing things in dating and like situationships and stuff. And yeah, I still continue to listen. So I'm like,
Yeah. To be back on the... I feel like that's so true. Once you actually find a happy relationship, you stop listening to dating advice, obviously, because you're just like, oh, I'm done. I'm good. I find that my person, so I don't need the advice anymore. I still listen. Yeah. Because I'm like, also, I just, I'm interested. But it's funny because it's like all the problems that I had, I can't remember them. Oh, my God. Really anymore. I'm like, who was that guy? That's amazing, though, because that means like you truly have found someone that can...
I don't know, just show up for you and be there for you. And I remember before you were in a relationship, we were talking about this fear of being alone. And that was the episode we recorded. And maybe it was meant to be that we didn't use that episode because it doesn't even apply at all anymore. It doesn't. It really doesn't. And it was interesting because I think when we did that episode, both of us were like, we're waiting for big love. Oh, yeah. We're not going to settle for little love. And I feel like I've found that. And it was so interesting to be like,
oh my gosh, I've been talking about this for so long. And now... I remember you were like, I'm good. Like, I don't want to date anyone right now. And then two weeks later, you're just in a full-blown relationship. I'm like, what is happening? Actually, that's so funny because I messaged you and I was like, guess what? Yeah. I was like, I may or may not be in love.
wild. Well, that's the thing. It just happens when you really aren't looking for it and you don't want it. It happens when you don't want it. Yeah. Always. I think it's because you de-center romantic love from your life. Yes. Such that it doesn't have a hold on you. And I have this theory and it's not scientific. It's very, I think, quite spiritual. But if you overthink when you're going to find love, the person that you're like kind of talking to, texting, and you start like imagining every single future possibility, you like jinx it.
Oh, totally. You totally jinx it because in some reality, it already exists. In your mind, that reality already exists so you cannot recreate it. The universe will not let you recreate a situation that you've already lived through in your brain. Wait, I'm mind blown right now. It's true though, right? Wait, okay, hold on. We need to explain this again. Hold on. So if you are fantasizing essentially about
a situation that you're in with someone and it hasn't technically already happened yet, what you're saying is like... Jinxed it. It's not going to happen. So if you have this guy and you're messaging him and you're like,
oh my God, he's the one, we're going to get married, we're going to have children. This is exactly like, oh my God, by December, I'll meet his parents and he's going to bring me flowers every day. And all you create the reality of this relationship in your brain before you have any sign, any indication that that actually is going to happen, I automatically think that it's not going to occur because you've already created that timeline.
And the universe doesn't want to recreate timelines. There's this theory in physics that there's like a million, billion, trillion timelines that we're all living at once. Oh, for sure. In different realities, right? And your brain is also a source of your reality. So you've created that timeline. You can't live it again. So I think what happened when I met Tom was I had completely let go
of any idea of what my next big love, my next love story would look like. And I was completely surprised. And it meant that I had so much like open space to accept whatever happened without
trying to create it in my brain and it not being as good. Do you know what I mean? No, I 100% agree. I feel like every time I fantasized over someone, it never worked out. And the one relationship that I had was that was really special. That meant the most to me was my last relationship. And it was like a step-by-step process where I wasn't thinking 10 steps ahead with him. It was always like in the moment. And I never overly fantasized about it, which is now I'm really thinking about I'm like,
That's a really good theory because any person I've had too high hopes for and had these crazy dreams and expectations for, it always ended up biting me in the ass and we would just end up ending pretty quickly. I love what you just said, step by step. Yeah. That's the approach I took when I met my partner. Yeah. I was like, let's just... I remember being like, don't make any decisions before they need to be made.
don't try and speed this up. Don't try and slow it down. Just let it happen as if you were making a new friend and then it's ended up being
Yeah, like no expectations, just go with the flow and put yourself as the priority and make sure that, you know, you really get to know someone before you dive into all the wedding details in your head. Yeah, not even thinking about it, maybe a little bit. That's not even what we're talking about today. Yeah, we can talk about everything, honestly, because I feel like we just always go off tangent because we have so much to talk about. If you've ever listened to one of the episodes with Liz on my show, the first 20 minutes is just us being like,
what are the recent revelations that you've had in your life? Yeah. And then we just spoke. I listened to one the other day. I was listening to my own podcast. It's embarrassing. No, it's not. I listen to my own podcast all the time. I love the sound of my voice. That's hilarious. I mean, I get what you're saying. You have a very comforting voice. Thanks. I don't. I'm like abrasive and crazy. I'm a crazy cabricorn screaming into a microphone. But I think people also...
I love listening to yours because like when I'm chilled out and I'm like waking up in the morning, it's you have such a peaceful tone to your voice that it's not it's appropriate at any hour of the day. With mine, you kind of have to get in the mood for it. Yeah, but it's also I think you're tougher than I am. No. Yeah. Really? Yeah. I'm like, just do whatever makes you feel happy. Yeah. I'm like, just do the work therapy and you're like,
you need to take accountability for your actions. Oh, true. I know what you mean by that. And I'm like, that's actually really good advice. I'm really harsh. I am really harsh. It's good that I give it to people straight. But also, it's a good balance to have. Yeah, I think so. You need to like the yin and yang. Yeah. Okay. So we're talking about
what to do when someone pulls away from you and what to do when you feel like someone's showing you all these red flags, but you're already in this cycle with them where you're so emotionally invested and then someone pulls back or they start changing their behaviors and you're already in deep where like you feel like you felt like you're about to be in a relationship with this person or maybe you are dating them already and you feel like they are on the verge of
ending things with you. It could be so many different types of situations. When someone pulls their energy back energetically, you feel like total crap because you're like, did I do something wrong? What's going on? And you could spiral in your head so easily. And I've had this happen to me before. So I thought it would be a really great thing to cover and maybe hear about
one or two of your experiences if you've ever had someone kind of pull back when you thought everything was going well. Oh, yeah. If you want to start, if you can think of anything. I'm going to jump right in. Okay, go. Go for it. I will say, I think it's really interesting that you've already made this distinction between someone you're just like just started seeing slash like getting to know
courting, I would say, and then like the person that you're dating. I think those are very, very different situations that we'll talk about in a second. But I have definitely had this happen. And I would say it's one of the worst feelings that can happen when you're dating someone or when you really, really care for someone is not having that investment, that time, that care, that love.
reciprocated. You're just pouring into a cup that has a hole in the bottom and you keep trying to fill it up and it's never going to be full because this person has already checked out of the situation. When I was 20, I went through a really terrible breakup and it's such like a common, I think, storyline of like,
Your first, like you've been in this beautiful long-term relationship, you break up and you immediately get into a situation ship. Oh yeah. Have you had that? Yeah. Every time. Every time. I don't know how it happens, but it's every time. I think it's because you're like, oh my God, I have this huge emotional void.
And anybody can feel it right now. Yeah. Because it's so painful. You grab onto anyone that's giving you attention in that moment and they somehow are like really attractive. Always. Always. They're like the most attractive person you've ever seen. And you're like, really? Okay. And you know it's going to be bad from the get-go, but you're just like, all right, let's do it. But you're expecting. You're also like, oh, I've just got out of this relationship. My whole perspective, like my whole expectation is to find someone that's going to commit the way that this last person committed. Yeah.
Yeah. Because that's, yeah, that's like the pattern you're going off. But I got into this situationship with this man, boy, let's call him a boy. Okay. He was a boy. Like he was, and it was so incredibly overwhelming because it was just like, I had never fallen that hard for somebody. I was in love with him. I remember telling him,
On like our fourth or fifth date, I'm going to get really attached to you. And I like said it to him. I was like, I can just see this happening. I'm an open book. And that was the worst. And he was, I feel like he heard that and was like, great. I'm just going to stop putting in any energy. But I was like, I knew it. I was like, oh gosh, I'm about to fall madly in love with this person. And I did. And we dated for like six months and then slowly and then not so slowly, he just started pulling away.
And he started to really almost, he started to treat me badly. It was almost like he was saying to me unconsciously, I don't really want to break up with you. So I'm going to get you to do it for me. Oh my God. That's like always how it is for some reason with the situationships. It's like they won't fucking end it. I know. They'll lead it on for 10 years if they have to while you're just like sitting there crying. I'm like, let me go. But you know why? It's because I don't care about you enough to treat, to let you go.
If they really truly cared about you, they would be in a relationship with you. But they don't care about you. And they don't care about your emotions. And so they are willing to see you in pain. Oh my God. Do you know what I mean? And so this is what happened. And he started... One big thing that I remember seeing was like, he started treating me really badly in front of his friends. Like he would put me down. He would say quite like cruel things as like a joke. And then he would be like, oh, sorry, I'm busy. I'm busy. I'm busy. And every time they do that,
I think the natural instinct is to just push even harder. Do you know what I'm talking about? Yeah. Where it's, you're pulling away. It must be something about me. Let me put in extra effort. Let me make all these excuses for you. Let me just almost like incessantly text you. Like I need you to reconnect with me. And that's what happened. And it did get to the point where I remember one night
We were like laying in bed and I just looked at him and I was like, you don't love me as much as I love you. It's really obvious to me now. And I cannot keep doing this. Like you make me feel really bad about myself. You make me feel bad about myself. I feel lame. I feel hurt by you. I've got to go.
And I remember him being like, oh my gosh, I'm so sorry. And then he texted me the next day and he got his friend to help him write the message. Oh, thank God. I know. But then no, he kept messaging me for a year and a half. I was like, leave me alone. They don't leave. He literally messaged me like, I'm in a very happy relationship. He messaged me like three months ago. And I remember showing my partner and being like, lol.
It was funny. I was like, you have no hold over me. But I remember in the message, he goes, I don't think I can respect you if we keep sleeping together. That's what he said to me. And I was like, wow, huge red flag. What have I been doing these last six months? If this is the opinion... Wait, I'm sorry. What did he say? He said, and it's funny because I read back these messages recently because I saw a friend who I hadn't seen since it ended. And she was like, what happened with you guys? And I was like, oh, let's take a trip down memory lane.
And he sent me this message where he was like, I can't respect you if we keep sleeping together. I don't even understand what that means. Like basically being like the fact that you are so committed to me and want me so badly means that I don't have respect for you.
And I remember at the time I was like, that's fair. And now I'm like, how dare he say that to me? But it's just this thing, right? Yeah. You don't, when they pull away, you're always like, oh yeah, they're totally right. They have the power. They're like, I'm in the wrong. I've done something that has caused this reaction.
And you just accept whatever they kind of throw your way. It was a huge lesson. You also just, for some reason, always feel like you're the problem and it's your fault at the end of that situation. I know for me, when anyone's ever pulled away from me and they started distancing themselves out of nowhere...
And I was like blindsided. I was like, what did I do? And you kind of start internalizing everything and going insane because technically nothing happened. It's just there was an energy shift and you notice that person doesn't care as much anymore. They're not willing to text you as much anymore. They're not willing to make a plan with you anymore. And...
Nothing actually changed. It was just the way they invested their energy in you and now they're not anymore. So it's like a mindfuck where you're just like, did I do something? Did you lose attraction to me? Did you lose interest? It's so easy to take it personally, especially if you're not
and I feel like this has happened to me way more when I was younger and I didn't understand the power of like my own... Like I didn't understand my own worth essentially and I didn't understand my own value so I would take it super personally and be really hurt. Whereas now someone pulls back, I'm like, all right, time to go. This isn't my person because I know the right person wouldn't just ditch me and kick me to the curb, obviously. It's like this theory you talk about, the let them theory. Yeah. Where...
I think that sometimes it's not that deep, right? You know what I mean? If someone is pulling away from you, our tendency is to look for every possible explanation as to why that is. And it's not that deep. It's just that if reading into it too much...
is I think really harmful. It's like actually just let them act the way that they want to act and you have to react appropriately from a place of self-respect, which is I'm not going to hold on to someone who doesn't want to be in my life. Yeah. It's like why, you know, you,
I just feel like it's having like a piece of fruit and you're afraid that you think you're going to eat eventually and you just let it rot and you're like oh but I'm so attached to this piece of fruit even though this is you're never gonna it's not gonna provide you like it was that easy exactly it's like the only analogy I can really think of right now but it's like when it's like this person has made a decision like it's their decision to reverse you can't do anything
Totally. And I also think it's like there was a situation where, I mean, this has happened to me a few times where I noticed someone pulling their energy back and I used to make excuses about it. And that's why I also let it carry on. I was like, oh, they're probably busy. And then they would validate and be like, yeah, I was working and I had my friend's birthday party. And then I went on vacation with my parents and
people will throw crazy excuses at you to just basically keep you there. But I said this on the episode we did together on your podcast. People will just keep you there and hold you there essentially as a form of control, knowing that they have you there, but they don't actually want you and they're never going to commit to you. And...
That's happened to me many times where someone would want my attention and latch on to me like a leech and be like, I want to suck your energy dry and get everything I can out of you. But I don't want to be with you. I don't want to be your partner, but I want you there. And a lot of people will get themselves in situations like that. And I think it's... I always compare these type of people to a leech because it's like someone that's just latched onto your power and...
There's been times where I'm like so in my power, so in my element and I'm so grounded and I'm like, I'm the best, nothing can stop me. And then I meet someone that has taken that away from me in a sense because I start giving them my energy and I start trusting them. And then they're just there for the ride. They're not there to commit. And in the past, it has ended up
like shitting all over my self-esteem and I've been like powerless in a sense. And I'm like, oh my God, like how did I get myself to this point just from another person not seeing my value? But it happens all the time. And yeah, the whole pulling away thing, I feel like also when you feel someone is taking their energy, pulling their energy back,
you start to feel like you're almost like burdening them by contacting them and continuing to text them. You're like, am I being annoying? Am I being clingy? Like just by trying to have communication still with this person, like I thought everything was going well. And yeah. But the thing is, it's like you said something really valuable that where you feel like you're burdening them. Yeah. The right person would never,
feel that way about you. It's the same thing about that example you gave of someone being like, I'm busy. I can't text you. I can't see you. I don't think I fully realized this until the relationship I'm in now where it's like, when someone really cares about you, they will find the time. And I know everyone always said that, like, if they wanted to, they would
But it's this example of if they can't, someone else will. Oh, yeah. And I saw this once and I was like, yeah, that's so right. This last person I was with, same as you. My self-esteem was so terrible. I couldn't even hold a conversation with somebody. There was like a period of three months where I had such low confidence that I would... I just moved to a new city. I would go to events. I would go to see people. I'd go to parties. I would meet new people. And I didn't have anything to say because I...
It was like this experience had silenced me into believing that, yeah, it was actually, I was thinking about it recently and I was like. I feel like you're way different than when I met you also. I feel like I've grown so much, right? Like I feel like I'm so shy and I'm not a shy person. But then I realized like with Tom, I was like, yeah, this person, this previous person couldn't do it for whatever reason. Wasn't because of me. They couldn't do it. Yeah. They did not have the capacity that this new person does.
We're doing long distance right now for a month. So I'm sure there's people like listening to this being like a month. That's nothing. But for me, it's pretty long. That is long to be away from someone. And especially like how far we are. Like it's not like we can, you know, it's like 15 hour flight. And at no point has he been too busy to call me despite time zone differences.
At no point have I felt like a burden for sending him like a million photos of the Rockefeller Christmas tree. And it's just like a sense of, wow, this is such a shift for me. And sometimes it's really, I sometimes when we first started dating, I'd be like, I shouldn't message him. I don't want to annoy him. I don't want to give him a reason to pull away. The right person will never find that reason. Oh, okay.
A 1000%. And I 100% agree with that because my last relationship was like that. Once you have someone that actually treats you right and wants to talk to you and makes the time, you realize that you've been settling for total shit your whole life. Literally been like, don't at me right now. And you also have thought
that that was the norm at the time. Like you thought like that's how it was. Like I always thought like this is how relationships are. It's like me chasing after someone, me trying to make it work, me trying to figure it out. And that was all I knew. So if it's all you know, you're going to keep settling for that because you don't actually know how good it could be. So when I
I started dating my last, my, my ex. He was, I would tell him these stories of like how guys would treat me. And he was horrified. He was like, how did you allow someone to treat you that way? And I was like, I have no fucking clue. I thought that was normal. I thought that was just how it was. And he was like,
This is insane to me how you allowed someone to emotionally abuse you that way, you know, make you feel that way about yourself. And I was like, yeah, you're right. And he set the bar so high for me. So now from that relationship, my standards and my self-worth and everything has completely shifted. And even now he's in the army and...
He reached out to me recently and he's... I didn't know that. Yeah, now he's in the army and he's doing some crazy stuff right now. And his life is on the line, literally. His life is at risk and he's still calling me. And I'm like, okay, so if your life is at risk and you're still making the time to call me, that is my standard now, okay? So when someone says, oh, you know, I had a dentist appointment and I couldn't get back to you. I'm like, fuck.
that it's like a 30 everyone always waits 30 minutes for the dentist don't lie yeah no on your phone you're not sitting there in silence I've heard every excuse in the book and I won't tolerate anything anymore because I know how good it could be yeah that's
That was what that person was there to show me. I completely agree. And I said, my friends said this to me the other day, because I think I have a lot of relationship anxiety where I'm waiting for him to pull away because everyone else, it's kind of sad, but I've obviously, I mean, I talked to my therapist about it. Like I talked to him about it as well, which I think is important. Yeah.
But my best friend said to me the other day, she was like, I don't worry about that anymore because at least I now know what healthy love feels like. If that is the only thing I take away from that. And I think it's a really important distinction to make as someone in a relationship, the difference between someone pulling away when you're just starting to date them versus someone pulling away when you are like in a relationship with them. Because I think when you're just dating, like dating someone in the early stages, like courting them, I don't really know. Yeah. Like courting. Yeah.
I guess, oh, like in America? I don't know. I don't even know either. Like when you're courting someone, it sounds so like British. In the talking stage.
I don't know. I know. Yeah. I don't know where I even found that phrase. That's hilarious. No, I know. Yeah. I think everyone will know what that means. Look it up if you're... It just sounds so proper. Yeah. It sounds like from like the 1600s. Like Australian. When I'm courting her. Courting her. Anyhow, you're courting someone, right? If they pull away, you don't have the commitment yet to tolerate that.
You don't have the commitment. You don't have the trust to realize that maybe it's just like a lull in your relationship. Maybe there's other things going on. No tolerance for that at all. I think match their energy.
Yeah. Always match their energy in those moments. Oh, for sure. Like I, there was a guy I was briefly seeing that I've spoken about on the podcast and yeah, I don't even know. He probably, I hope he, yeah, yeah. So he, this guy, whatever, I'm glad I never got too emotionally invested, but it taught me a lot about myself. I'm glad I experienced it, but I was in sort of a situation ship and he started pulling away out of nowhere and
And then I found out, like, he had been lying to me the whole time about seeing someone else. And he had said, oh, you know, I'm busy working. I'm at this. I'm doing that, whatever. And...
lining up all these excuses. And at the time I was trying to, I was trying so hard to believe him. I was trying the most to be like, I need to be trusting. I'm a trusting person. I need to be just like open-minded and understand that everyone has a life. And then like looking back after I found out that he was lying about it, I'm like, I will never fucking take it ever again. I'm never going to listen to anyone again that says I was too busy doing this or that because I
It's a lie. It literally is a lie. Because I know for me, if I really truly, truly love someone or care about them or at least want to invest in them and see potential in them as far as a partner, I'm not going to fuck it up. You know? You would never. Or at least communicate before I have something to do. Hey, I'm going to be busy this day. And...
I expect the same in return. I just expect someone to be fully transparent and honest, obviously. That's another huge thing. And it's also this interesting thing where it's, is that really how you want your relationship to start? Would your soulmate treat you that way? If you see a future with this person...
Do you really want to tell your kids the part of the love story where they're like dad or like their parent like ghosted you for a week? Oh, so funny. Like daddy ghosted me. Daddy ghosted me. Oh, like daddy like didn't talk to mommy for three months because he was like, he was too busy with work. Like what the hell? I'm dying. I'm literally dying. Do you know what I mean? That is so... Daddy ghosted me. Daddy...
It's going to be my new catchphrase. Yeah, literally. It's going to be my new catchphrase. But then I think in 2024... Daddy girls. I don't think I've ever said that word on the podcast. But I also think it's interesting because if you're in a relationship with someone and they pull away, it's different. Yeah. You need to have a chat about that. Oh, for sure. I think... Yeah, I mean, I remember also there's been points in my serious relationships where...
My boyfriends at the time have distanced themselves and it was often because we were on the verge of a breakup. And I mean, there's always reasons for why people distance themselves and not all of it's going to lead to a breakup, but that's how I kind of knew it was coming. And...
It was obviously different because there was so much substance behind why the breakup needed to happen. But I'm not the type of person to walk away. It's so hard for me. When I'm truly in love, I almost want the other person to do it first. Because I'm like, I can't say goodbye. I have a really hard time saying goodbye and shutting the door when I'm so heavily invested. And so once I feel that pullback...
I'm like, oh God, it's coming. But that's like only from my experiences. I know there's so many different variations of like people pulling back just because they're stressed or, you know...
They're just like depressed. There's so many reasons. The mental health factor is like so valuable. Because I remember like I was dating someone and I'm not going to say I have a lot of love for him, but like at the time I have a lot of love for him. He's not a bad guy. And that is exactly what happened where it's like for a period of our relationship, he pulled away. And if your instant reaction is to be like, I've done something wrong, you never get to the truth.
And in the courting stage, like the truth is that they're not, they can't, they're not deserving of you. You need to move on. But in a relationship, I think sometimes the truth is more nuanced. And if you jump to conclusions, you can end up sabotaging the relationship when maybe they do have a reason for you. Or maybe it is that like the relationship is coming to a natural close and there are things that you could potentially be vulnerable about and discuss that could save the relationship. Yeah. But if you can't,
I just think it's no point hanging on to something that's not meant to be in your life. So much so that it causes you genuine psychological distress. Yeah, for sure. You're causing yourself pain to make someone else comfortable. And I just don't think that that's fair. Really? Ever. No matter how long you've been with them. Yeah. Yeah.
I agree. And it's so hard sometimes to walk away even when you're the one suffering and the one in pain because you love so deeply. Like, I know for me, like, I've been in that position before.
Where I've psychologically damaged myself just to keep something afloat when I knew it was probably not the best decision. Yeah, but you're romantic, right? Oh my god. You're so deeply romantic. Once I'm in it, I'm in it. But also when I'm out of it, I'm out of it. Once I heal and I get past the tunnel of pain, as I call it, which is like this grieving period where you feel like you're never going to be okay. Once I get past that, I'm like...
Bye. Yeah. You're done. You're out. Yeah. No. Yeah. No need to keep. I feel it's like, what's the saying? Keep beating a dead horse. Yeah. There's just no point.
There was a point, I remember when I went through my last breakup, where I felt relief in a way, even though I was in pain most of the time. There was a sense of also comfort knowing that I wasn't going to feel so much pain with someone again. At least I could heal and actually have a chance of being happy. Because there was a period of time towards the end of the relationship where I was like, I'm literally so depressed. Oh, that's so hard.
yeah, to actually pull yourself out of that. There was like a little bit of like relief in it, just knowing that you could like actually take time to heal in the right ways and not be obsessive over, are we going to be together? Are we not? Is this working? Is it not? Like those questions can drive you literally insane. But it's like just giving it, it's just being like, I can't control this. I'm just going to give this
to what I'm just going to let this free. And we either we come back together or we don't, but I realized that like, I cannot force something. Like I just need to, it's like this saying, Oh my God, I'm going to give you another horse metaphor in the span of five minutes, but you can take a horse to water, but you cannot make it drink. Right. Like you can force them. You're so funny. Yeah.
I know it was an accident. Horse metaphors. Yes. I'm going to just title the episode Horse Metaphors 101. But yeah, anyhow, take a horse to water, can't make it drink. Oh my God. Yeah. Okay, wait. So I asked some people on Instagram what questions they had for you. Oh, cute. I saw that. Yeah. And I mean, maybe I'll chime in also. Yeah, you should.
Absolutely. Okay. So let's see. I'm going to go through them right now. Do you believe in love at first sight or do you think it develops over time? I believe in like attraction at first sight. I do not believe in love at first sight. Okay. I think that a lot of that is based on our types. And I think that our types are not like written in stone and that you can come to love someone more than you ever thought you would have from their first impression.
I kind of agree with that. I think I've definitely been super into someone right away where I felt the spark and the connection and I was like, this could go somewhere. But...
I've never met someone and the day I met them, I knew that they were my husband. I mean, some people have had stories like that though. Have you ever heard of those stories? Like people have told me that before. But I think that what you had was attraction. It just happened that this worked out, that everything else came together as well. Like you had, then you actually, it was, it was the chance that you also had compatibility and you also had shared values and you also had shared, a shared future. Like I do just think the initial feeling is just like a deep attraction. Yeah.
I agree with that. I also think love is something, and this is what my brother says, and he's happily married, and he's always told me that love is built over time. And I think that's such an important thing because he came from a place of building love
a relationship into a solid foundation. Whereas I feel like he's the type of person who just really takes his time with things and he's rational in love and he built the foundation for a solid marriage and he's been married for a very long time now. And he was telling me, you know, that lust, that excitement you feel, like, although it could lead to marriage, it's often like
That's not the sign that that's your husband. That's not the sign that that's going to be your soulmate. Just because it's exciting, it's more just like the attraction. The moment I realized that I really loved my partner, that I really loved Tom, was after our first fight.
oh it was like I had already said I loved him and I did love him or I was like oh yeah okay this is and like this is the love of my life like this is end game for me was we had our first fight and we built ourselves it was almost like we came out stronger yeah it came out like bigger we came out more in touch yeah that's when I realized and it had nothing to do with a lust or attraction I feel like in that moment we were like oh my god I'm so in a way to you but what came after that was sort of like beautiful
I do feel like when you fight with someone really intensely and you love each other more even after, that's a sign that you're with like a really special person. He's pretty good. Also, he's like a lawyer. He fights pretty well. Oh God, you're like, I can't argue with him. Yeah, I know. I'm like, actually, you're totally correct. Oh, I love that though. I love that you guys also have two totally different lines of work. Yeah, it's actually great. It's so interesting.
Okay, I have a spicy question. What is your thoughts on dating or hooking up with your co-workers? One of you is going to have to quit eventually. Oh, I 100% agree. Also, I think that's kind of like...
inappropriate in the sense of because if things don't work out you're putting so much on the line at risk that's what I'm saying and you're going into work every day preoccupied with that probably in your head because I know I would be if I'm like hooking up with someone I'm next to every day and then you know some drama happens I would want to quit my job I'm not gonna sit oh my god yeah but imagine being like sitting at your desk and having like sex fantasies about them
Yeah. Like right there. That's so distracting. Someone, so it's like either it goes really well and one of you has to break, one of you will have to leave because it's like, well, we can't keep, our lives cannot be this intertwined. It's not healthy. Yeah. Or one of you is going to have to leave because you're going to break up and it's going to be so awkward. Yeah. So I think, I'll be honest, I've done it. I haven't dated. I've hooked up with someone that I worked with and that is exactly what happened. Yeah. It's almost like the same with hooking up with a roommate. Like you spend so much time in the office and at work
Like, obviously it feels good because you have so much to talk about. Like, work is the center of your lives. Yeah. Of your romantic relationship. Is that really what you want? Yeah. It's hard to make it. I think it's hard to keep it healthy. I'm sure people have done it. I just haven't seen it happen.
Yeah. No, I mean, there's always those rare cases where you're like, okay, they ended up getting married. They worked in the same cubicle and whatever. Have you seen that movie? I don't know. He's just not that into you? Yeah, yeah. Where it's like, you're not the exception, you're the rule. Everyone always wants to tell you the story of the exception. They're like, well, I have a friend and she was dating her boss and now they're married and they have three kids. It's like, yeah, but that's the exception. Stop reading into it.
Okay, this is a good one. How much can a guy change? Can he ever truly change how much he cares about you? I've thought about this a lot. I think that the, I don't really think that people change all too much from who they are. I think that our personality stays pretty consistent throughout our lives. But I do think that people can change if they're committed to it. The thing is, is that in that situation where you're like, can they change how much they care about me? I think that's wishful thinking.
because they have to do it themselves. And I also don't think that caring and love and compassion is something that should be forced. Yeah. You know what I mean? If that person doesn't care about you, no matter what you say, no matter what, I don't think that it's something that you can artificially create. So I would say that instead of looking to this person to change, look to somebody else who's already done the work.
You know, it's like the difference between buying something from Ikea versus buying something that's already made. Do you really want to put that all together right now? Well, you're the queen of metaphors. I know, I'm realizing that. Wow, you really are. That's a really good... This is the metaphor episode. Yeah, no, honestly, that was a really good metaphor because I think I have this tendency to try to fix people also. And I think it's... Yeah, I get why.
Yeah. I think it's like this fun project for me sometimes to be like, oh, well, I see the potential in them. So let me just see if they could care more. And I think that's a common thing with a lot of people because when you see the potential, it's easy to get fixated on that and be like, well, it's worth the investment that I'm going to put in to try to see that potential. But I agree with everything you just said. You can't force someone to care more. And
I don't think it has to come naturally to them out of a need of like them wanting to care more and show up for you. And most times, as you said, I think personalities stay pretty consistent and people don't change at their core. I think you can evolve and up-level and change your environment and change your job. And you know, you could attract new things into your life and obviously your circumstances will change. But I think at your core, you always stay the same. And in that instance, like you have an intention to do it that is self-sufficient.
That is internal. You made that decision to up-level your life. You made that decision to be better. I think if you're trying to force someone to do that for you, it never works. And I really want to do it. Such a good point. Such a good point.
Oh my god, this episode was so good. I'm so happy. I can't wait to listen to it. Yeah, I'm so excited and I'm so happy because like... I think it was your first guest. Yeah, this was a long time coming also because I've been like putting off the guest episode thing for so long. Your lessons will go up. I'm just telling you. I'm so excited. No, I really am. And also it's just fun because it's less... I think it's like just fun to have chats like on the show. That's why I love it.
Okay. Well, I'm going to wrap this up. All right, guys. I think that concludes today's episode. Thank you so much for listening as always. If you haven't already, be sure to rate the podcast on Apple and Spotify and always feel free to DM me at Date Yourself Instead or my personal account at Liss. Be sure to also check out the masterclass at Dare to Detach on Instagram or you could always go to the show notes as well. I love you. Have an amazing day and stay tuned for next Monday.