A Romanian Mob Illicit Arms Deal With a Twist - with Trevor Aaronson
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Hey guys, and welcome to a bonus Underworld podcast episode. I'm Sean Williams in Wellington. You know that already because you're the best people on earth and you subscribe to the show, of course. And I'm joined today by reporter Trevor Aronson, a contributing writer at The Intercept and creator of podcast Alphabet Boys, which is about stings and the so-called alphabet agencies of the US. That's your CIA, your FBI, DEA, ATF, and so on. And Trevor's second season, and we'll get to the first one later on, it

It's all about an arms deal, the FARC, government infighting, the mob in Vegas, and a Romanian fixer named Flaviu Georgescu. I mean, that sounds just like right in our wheelhouse, doesn't it? So first of all, welcome to the show, Trevor. This story is pretty crazy. You follow a lot of stuff about sort of government, overreach government agencies, the Alphabet Boys, of course. Where did you come across Flaviu and what kind of piqued your interest about him?

about this particular guy. I imagine you speak to many, many sources of a kind of similar ilk, I guess, with, with, uh, with stories about the government in various ways. Yeah. So I remember very vaguely hearing about Flavio's arrest, you know, in large part,

Because I follow terrorism prosecutions and have alerts set up for Justice Department, National Security Division press releases. And I think my first introduction of Flavio's case was seeing a press release about the arrest, which at the time, based solely on that, seemed very serious, right? The idea that this Romanian guy partnered with another Romanian, as well as this former Italian politician, were brokering this $14 million arms deal for the FARC, the Colombian rebel group that at the time

was a U.S. designated terrorist organization. And

I just kind of made a mental note of that, and I didn't really pursue it in any substantial way. And as it happens, on the eve of Flavio's trial, his wife at the time, Andra, had reached out to me because she had seen that in the past I had written about cases involving government entrapment, and they felt that I would be a good person to talk to. And so at that point is when I really started diving into Flavio's case because what I didn't know until his wife, Andra, had told me

was that as the trial was coming up, the defense was going to be that he wasn't brokering this arms deal as a criminal. In fact, he was cooperating with the Central Intelligence Agency and he was providing intelligence to them. And the government is basically hanging him out to dry, which, of course, is a very provocative claim and started my interest in the case. And so that would have been roughly 2017 that that was 2016, 2017 that that was happening.

How does a journalist like yourself go about investigating something as kind of, you know, weird? And I guess in many ways, a sort of closed box with the agencies that involves as well. Yeah. So, you know, a lot of the cases that are prosecuted in federal courts in the US, the vast majority of defendants plead guilty. And what that prevents is the disclosure of a lot of what's called discovery material, the evidence in the case. And so in many ways,

we are not always given a glimpse into allegedly egregious behavior by government agents like the FBI or the DEA, because so much of the evidence of that behavior never comes to light because of the plea that happens. The defendants often will plead guilty before they're even given access to the full discovery, the full set of evidence. And in some ways, you can't necessarily blame them because, you know, if you're facing terrorism related charges, you could

face 20, 30 life in prison. If you're convicted at trial, a plea deal, they'll sometimes offer eight to 12. And so there's an incentive for these defendants to plead guilty. And that is often what happens. So a lot of my work in looking at entrapment schemes run by the

the FBI and the DEA and others is it really depends on the ability to access the evidence in the case, the undercover recordings that were made as part of the investigation. And because Flavio went to trial, so much of the evidence that the DEA had produced was,

was then put into the public record as a result of that trial. And I think I should note and say that, you know, as I mentioned, Flavio's defense and Flavio's story to this day is that he was working with the Central Intelligence Agency to bring information about this supposed arms deal. Effectively, you know,

reporting to the CIA, the DEA's own undercover agent in this sting operation that was essentially targeting Flavio. I mean, it's kind of this, this, this Robin wheel of allegations, right? But what's substantial about Flavio's case and the reason I have covered it for as long as I did, and I think were it not for this, I probably would have brushed the case aside is that

in as part of the evidence in his prosecution, the CIA turned over recordings of Flavio's calls. And, you know, to me, this is significant in two ways. One is that Flavio's claim that he was working for the CIA would have otherwise been entirely, it would have been impossible to corroborate in any way, right? You can't call the CIA and say, was Flavio one of your sources? They'll, of course, say no comment. And then the second was that

Even though the CIA did not make any claims that Flavio was working for the agency, the fact that the CIA turned over the recordings showing that he had made these calls and talked to agents and basically reported the very crime that he would later be charged with before having committed it, you know, to me, that was significant. You know, what Flavio would allege is that that's proof that he was working for the CIA. Yeah.

I don't know if I'm willing to go that far, but I think it's at least proof that the CIA is saying, like, hey, there might be something to the claims, at least, that Flavio thought he was working for the agency because he makes these calls. And, you know, I think that's what's always really intrigued me about the story is that these calls exist

and were turned over, because otherwise I wouldn't have pursued it. But I think what's also really interesting, and this is in episode two of the show, is that the calls, there's a level of ambiguity to the calls about whether Flavio really...

was reporting the information to the CIA and whether the, whether the CIA was enlisting Flavio as an informant or, or whether none of that really happened. And, you know, the calls are so ambiguous that it leaves open this question of, you know, was Flavio working for the CIA as he alleged, or as the government alleged, was this some elaborate cover for, you know,

to give him some, an insurance policy in case he was arrested, which ultimately he was. And so I think what we, we try to present to the listener and the show in this, in this season is all of the evidence that we know and all of the circumstances around these calls and this sting and, and try to let the listener, you know, come to the conclusion on their own, whether they believe Flavio, you know, really was working for the CIA or,

or maybe thought he was working for the CIA, or if it was, in fact, as the government alleged, you know, a part of a cover to, you know, be able to use in case he was arrested and charged as he was. So help us unpick this deal that's at the center of everything then. What was actually going on? Where did it happen? And who are the parties involved?

Yeah, so there was actually two Georgescus involved. Georgescu is actually the most common surname in Romania. It's like Smith in the United States. And Flavio had grown up in Romania under Nicolae Georgescu, moved to the United States and settled in Las Vegas. And he had this job of basically being an all-around fixer for wealthy people, mainly Eastern Europeans. And through that, he meets a man named Andy Georgescu, and they become fast friends.

Andy ran this business where he shipped automobiles and other items out of the port of Los Angeles. And Flavio's clients would buy expensive cars in Las Vegas. And he would then deliver those cars to Andy Georgescu to ship them to Vegas. This went on for a decade in the early 2000s. And one day in 2012, Andy Georgescu calls Flavio.

And says, you know, I know this guy who is interested in brokering an arms deal for the FARC, the FARC being the rebel group in Colombia. And he asked Flavio because Flavio tends to be a connected guy. If he knows how anyone who could make that happen and that if he does know anyone who could make that happen, they could make a lot of money on a commission as a middleman for an arms transaction. And Flavio says maybe he could.

and hangs up the phone with this friend, Andy. And that's when he calls immediately the CIA. You know, quite literally, you know, the CIA's 1-800 number, if you will, is no longer listed on the website. But back in 2012, it was. And as ridiculous as it sounds, Flavio goes to CIA.gov, finds the number, and gets an agent on the phone. And it's basically like, hey,

This guy, Andy, I know introduced me to this Colombian. The Colombian wants me to help him broker arms for the FARC. Do you guys want to know more information about this?

And, you know, what increases the level of intrigue in this whole thing is that when Flavio calls the CIA, one of the things he mentions is that he basically says, I'm a known source. I've worked with you guys in the past. And what he meant is that in the early 2000s, when he was living in Las Vegas, Flavio was an informant person.

the FBI and had provided information about Eastern European organized crime. And then even after he moved back to Europe, he was still providing information to the FBI. And this is all documented. And so, you know, that fact kind of lends some

to the claim that Flavio may have been, at least thought he was working for the CIA when he makes that call. And so, but at the same time, he makes this call in 2012, reports this arms deal, but nothing really happens until 2014, two years later, when Flavio is then introduced to Juan, the Colombian, in person. And, you know, what's interesting and what kind of cuts against Flavio's story, if you will, is that he then meets with Juan, but he doesn't

but never calls the CIA back. Never says, Hey, I talked to you guys two years ago. I'm meeting with this guy now. What should I do? Instead, he meets with Juan and then they carry forward in discussions about how they would put together this arm seal. And ultimately, you know,

Flavio spends months recruiting other people to help him. He meets a Romanian government minister named Cristian Ventilla, whose job was to liaise between the government of Romania and the NATO alliance. And Cristian is very familiar with weapons and arms manufacturers. And he brings on Cristian to help him find the factory to sell the weapons. And then in order to ship weapons internationally, you

You need a regulatory document called an end user certificate, which basically is like a legal document that says,

These weapons will be shipped to this country, and it guarantees that the weapons aren't being shipped to terrorists or governments like Syria or Iran or the Colombian FARC that are prohibited from receiving these under international sanctions or regulations. And so with the help of a former Italian parliament member named Massimo Romagnoli, they obtain an end-user certificate that claims the weapons are illegal.

bound for Ethiopia, even though the intention is to ship them to Colombia. And so over the course of months, never getting any money for his efforts, Flavio knits together the entire network to deliver these weapons to the Colombian FARC. So then the question becomes,

Did Flavio deliver this network, this whole arms deal, arrange this, make this arrangement in order to make a lot of money? Because potentially he could have. Or was he doing it in order to kind of figure out who the players were and how the FARC would get these weapons in order to deliver it to the CIA? And when I'd asked Flavio, you know, why he didn't call the CIA back, you know, two years after the initial attack,

call, you know, his response is, well, I was doing the work to figure out who these people were so I could then go and provide that information to the CIA. And I wasn't finished yet by the time I was arrested by the DEA. And so

you know, the conclusion, which is actually kind of where we start the show, we start the show at kind of the penultimate moment, is when Flavio puts together this arms deal. He's got an end-user certificate. He's got an arms manufacturer in Bulgaria willing to ship

the weapons. And then he meets Juan, the Colombian in Montenegro, provides him with the contract, needs a signature. Juan would have to wire the money. But before any of that happens, the DEA rushes in and arrest Flavio and his partner, Christian Ventilla. And at that point,

Flavio motions to the arresting agent, asks to speak to him privately in the bathroom in this hotel room and says, I work for the CIA. And of course, the DEA guy is like, yeah, right, man, whatever. You don't work for the CIA and arrests him. And that really kind of triggers the trial and the questions about whether, in fact, Flavio was really working for the CIA. Yeah.

It's kind of the old Victor Boot entrapment as well, right? This is exactly the same method they got him with. It's like a FARC leader. Oh, by the way, just so you know, we're definitely going to shoot down American helicopters with these RPGs just to kind of ram it home. Yes. No, you're exactly right. I mean, we actually mentioned Victor Boot's case in the last episode when we talked about narco-terrorism stings in general. And that's what this is. So, you know, the backstory, of course...

is, you know, if you play that, if you wind the clock all the way back, you know, and you go back to the drug war in the 1980s, you know, one of the things that was happening was that the FBI was kind of initially cut out of the drug war. And so in 19, I believe 1986, the FBI went to the Reagan administration and Congress and asked for concurrent jurisdiction over drugs. And that was a funding gambit, right? Like the FBI saw lots of money going to the drug war. And so then the DEA and the FBI get concurrent jurisdiction.

And if you fast forward then to the post 9-11 era, the opposite was happening. Terrorism was the large funding game and the DEA was largely cut out of it. And so in 2006, the DEA did what the FBI did in the 1980s. They went to Congress and they said, hey, look, we think there's this real issue of narco-terrorism.

And we need lots of funding to find these narco-terrorists. And, you know, narco-terrorism, the definition of it is basically terrorist organizations or terrorists individually who are funding their activities through the drug trade. And there's a real question in the academic research about whether this is

really a thing, right? Like you can point to limited examples, the Taliban's use of the poppy tray to fund some of its activities, but there's no real substantial evidence to suggest organizations like Al Qaeda or ISIS fund their activities and their violence through the drug trade. But one exception, of course, is the FARC, the Colombian rebel group, because of its location in rural areas of Colombia, does fund its activities in part through cocaine cultivation and production.

And what the DEA started doing once they got funding for narco-terrorism is they would take undercover agents or more commonly undercover informants and

and have them pose as FARC officials. And they would travel the world, mostly in Europe, looking for people who would then sell them weapons. And they would make clear, like, this money comes from drug proceeds, and the weapons you're going to sell to us are going to be used to kill Americans and shoot down American helicopters.

And that's what they did in Flavio's case. But as you noted, they did the exact same thing to Victor Boot. They had initially approached one of Victor Boot's colleagues and then set up a very similar sting where they ultimately arrested Victor Boot in Thailand. And then another man, Manzral Kassar, this arms dealer who's known as the Prince of Marbella for this enormous mansion he owned in southern Spain, was caught in a similar sting. And I think you could argue...

incredibly credibly that Victor Boot and Manzara Al-Kassar were legitimate arms dealers, right? Where there's a gray area is that both of these guys at various times have, you know, traded in illegal arms that were actually in the U.S. interest through proxy wars and others. So it's a very complicated picture, but these were in fact arms dealers. But the other case, but aside from those cases, when you look at DEA narco-terrorism things, it's more commonly illegal

The question is more commonly whether the person targeted in the sting, like Flavio, really is a legitimate arms dealer. You know, as just another example of this, there was a case where the DEA, just like in Flavio's case, just like in Victor Boots, sent undercover informants claiming to be Colombian FARC rebels to Africa.

And they entrapped three Malian men, um, in this supposed scheme to fund, uh,

both the FARC and Al Qaeda by moving weapons through parts of Africa. And they'd offered these young, these three young Malian men a lot of money to do this, ultimately arrested them, brought them back to the United States and, and prosecuted them under terrorism charges. And the ambassador to the United States from Mali, you know, made public statements to the justice department that, that basically said, Hey, look, we are a very, very poor country. And if you're going to send undercover agents in, you know, with,

offering thousands and thousands of dollars to commit crimes, you're going to find a lot of criminals. And that's true, I think, in some of these narco-terrorism sting cases, this idea that

would this crime have been committed were it not for the the um dea kind of making everything possible through this right there's not a whole lot of evidence that i've seen that real fark officials are traveling around the world buying weapons using cocaine proceeds but the dea as a result of this expanded mandate in the post 9-11 era really turned it into this cottage industry

and arrested more than two dozen people, you know, worldwide. I mean, and keep in mind, all of these, all of these, all of these crimes happen outside the United States, right? So it also raises these questions of, you know, the United States being kind of the world prosecutor and world police, because ultimately, as in Flavio's case, as in Victor Booth's case, all of the crime happens outside the United States. No, no American is ever,

you know, harmed in the crime. And yet the crime is then prosecuted always in New York city. Um, you know, even though there was no connection to the United States or New York city whatsoever. Yeah. It's, it, it's really, um, crazy how all those agencies have worked together and then kind of like at different times pounced on these sort of chimeras of various organized crime groups, the terror linkups. Um, we've covered it sometimes on the pod as well. Um,

When Flavio kind of takes this guy from the sting and kind of goes, P.S. I'm working for you guys, it really tumbles into this fascinating history about him being... I mean, he's a grafter, essentially, right? He's this kind of fixer bringing cars over into Vegas. And then he gets involved with the FBI, right?

And involved with this really fascinating kind of nexus of organized criminal groups in Vegas that is continuing despite the kind of oldie worldie mafias leaving town. Tell us a bit more about those sort of competing or sort of cooperating groups and how Flavio kind of weighed into the whole group.

Yeah, so we tell his history in Las Vegas through his FBI handler, a man named Mark Pinto. And Mark Pinto, in the early 2000s, his job for the FBI was to investigate the growing organized crime threat situation.

specifically among Eastern European groups. And so, you know, obviously the quick history of the, of, of Las Vegas is that this was a city largely founded by La Cosa Nostra, the Italian mafia. And, and for, for years would funnel money to, you know, mob operations in Chicago and Kansas city and New York and elsewhere. And,

But starting in the 90s, the influence of the Italian mafia in Las Vegas began to wane, and there was really this increase in Eastern European organized crime groups in Las Vegas. You know, Romanians, Armenians, Russians. And one of the things that the Eastern European crime groups adopted from the Italian crime groups that had preceded them was this idea that Las Vegas was what's called an open city. So in cities like Los Angeles or New York,

the Armenians wouldn't work with the Romanians. They were rivals. But because Las Vegas was an open city to the Eastern European groups, just like it was to the Italian groups before them, it allowed these groups to work together. And so what Mark Pinto, the FBI agent, was seeing in Las Vegas was this burgeoning partnership between the Armenians and the Romanians. And he didn't quite know what was happening. All he knew is that they were involved in some sort of

credit card fraud scheme. And Mark had tried to kind of crack his way into the group and really struggled. And then one day in 2001, Flavio Georgescu walks into the FBI's office in Las Vegas and just offers to help. And what Flavio says is that he had worked really hard to come to the United States and he really loved the United States and

And he really dislikes the way that corruption happened in his home country in Romania. And he was disgusted to see Romanians come to the United States and then abuse the system and commit these crimes and, you know, put these organized crime groups together. And so he offered to provide information. But it was in a very unique way in the sense that Flavio

Flavio is a very personal guy. He's very social. He gets to know everyone. And so he had built this social network in Las Vegas among Romanians and

And there were a lot of Romanians who had information about this credit card fraud scheme, but were afraid to bring that information to law enforcement for fear that they would be harmed by the mob. Or their family members in Romania would be harmed by organized crime figures there. And so Flavio acted as a kind of conduit where he would get that information and then deliver it to Romanians.

Mark Pinto and the FBI. And the information proved quite credible, and it was substantiated by FBI documents that we were able to obtain. And what was happening, and what Flavio helped expose, was that the Romanians and the Armenians were working together nationwide

Um, but, but primarily in Las Vegas and what they would do is be, would be the Romanian groups in Las Vegas would, um, work with Armenian groups in other, in other cities, Seattle, Miami. And they had a racket where they would largely go into gyms and they would steal credit card information from wallets and gym lockers. And then they would, they would curry that information over, uh,

to the Romanians in Las Vegas who would then, using special equipment, print credit cards and get IDs and fake IDs. And then they would walk into the casinos and go to the cages and use those manufactured credit cards or stolen credit cards to get cash advances. And they were raking in tens of thousands of dollars every night. And it was a sophisticated operation that was happening nationwide. But even in Las Vegas, an example of like,

how hard they would work. You know, Mark Pinto documents how, or describes how, you know, in Las Vegas, there was this fancy gym and the Armenians and the Romanians working together had this whole setup where the gym was one of those where each, each gym locker had its own unique lock. And so when you checked in, you got your, you got your key, which was unique to that locker.

And you put your stuff in and then you walk away with your key. And so one of the members of the crime ring would go in and over the course of months, make copies of each of those keys, you know, just getting one key each time he goes in so that over time they have the full set and then they would have the full set of keys and then they'd rifle through wallets and write down information. And what they would also do is like put a very attractive, uh,

on the gym floor who would then be the lookout. And if they were kind of pulling credit cards from the Las Vegas gym locker and one of the guys whose credit cards they were stealing was coming back too soon, the very attractive woman would then intercede and stop the person and delay them from getting there. And then they would take that information and get cash advances. And this was something that was pulling in hundreds of thousands of dollars over time. And it took the FBI a little over two years to...

build a case against the organized crime group, but ultimately, you know, indicted more than two dozen people, some of whom fled the country after the indictments came down and are still, you know, fugitives. But as part of Flavio's work, but prior to the indictments coming down, the, the,

the head Romanian of the organized crime group, for some reason discovered that Flavio was providing information. And another informant that the FBI had was able to document that they put a hit on Flavio for $500. And Flavio then leaves Las Vegas and returns to Europe. And, you know, there's questions about how credible that threat was. You know, Flavio believes it was incredibly credible. Mark Pinto, the FBI agent, kind of dismisses it as just bluster. But again, it shows you that

Prior to calling the CIA and claiming that he had information about an arms deal, you know, Flavio had a history of being a credible informant for the FBI. And in fact, you know, you know, having, you know, his life kind of altered in a drastic way, having to leave the United States because of threats that came about as a result of his cooperation with the government.

Yes, there's a kind of funny moment where Mark is saying these guys are so painstaking and patient and kind of studious in the way that they're doing these scams. I mean, they could almost, you know, if they turned that on the regular market, they could probably make millions entrepreneurially. I mean, it's kind of so painstaking, this credit card stuff that they were doing.

Yeah, I mean, in a way, Mark kind of admired their hard work, right? Which is true. And if they would have applied themselves in a... I think the quote he has is like, if they would have applied themselves in a similar way to a real job, they would have made tons of money. They would be so successful. But they're working so hard to be criminals. And it is painstaking work. And in some ways, I mean, it was like...

I kind of like that aspect of Mark's description of the organized crime ring in Las Vegas because I think when a lot of people think about crime, they think about criminals as being kind of

Very, like, you know, quick to decision and not necessarily making the best decisions and not being organized and looking at kind of fast money crimes. Whereas the Eastern European groups in Las Vegas at that time were really focused on sophisticated crimes that took, you know, months and months to build. And, you know, they really had a network going that was quite sophisticated and, you know, to such a degree that it was a challenge ultimately for the FBI to figure out what was happening.

So Flavio's kind of... He's run this gauntlet with the organized criminals in Vegas. He's provided very crucial information to the FBI. Gets asked by his pal back in Bucharest, Hey, you've been sending cars over. Why don't we send a few RPGs? And he's like, yeah, all right, maybe. As I'm sure anyone would. I mean, I guess...

From your perspective, having actually spoken to this guy at length over the course of, what, well over a year or two years, what's your kind of assessment of him? Because, I mean, listening to the show, my own opinion was kind of shifting and wending with the episodes. It's like, is this guy a gangster? Is he a chancer? Is he a patriot? Is he an informant? I couldn't quite...

It's hard to pin him down. And I think, I mean, obviously that's because he is hard to pin down, but what's your, what's your kind of read on him? Yeah, I think I went through all of those thoughts in the years that I've been in conversation with him. And I have to admit that I can't say with certainty either way at this point. And I know that's kind of a dissatisfying answer. You know, I tend to think,

that it is more likely that Flavio thought he was working for the CIA than any other possible situation. I don't think he was officially working for the CIA. And I also can't rule out entirely that this was a cover story. I tend to think that's less likely. And the reason I think that is, you know, the story itself, this idea that someone would call up the CIA and, you know, tell them everything about this crime they're going to commit

and then commit that crime, and then say, like, hey, I didn't do it. I was actually working for the CIA. You should get the calls. I think, like, you know, the government's allegation that that was all a cover is a reasonable assessment when looked at in isolation. You know, I think that's the most logical explanation for what is happening here. But I think Flavio is such kind of a unique character in a sense that his history really informs...

a different way to look at that. So I think, so that's a way of saying, I think when I first thought it saw the case and I saw the circumstances, I tended to be sympathetic to the government's assessment of the case because of that seemed to be the most logical. But as I became, as I came to know more and more about Flavio and understand better what he did in Las Vegas for the FBI and understand his history a bit better, I became open to the possibility that he, this was, this was some big cultural misunderstanding and that Flavio was,

really thought he was working for the CIA. And the reason I say that is that I think Flavio

believed in the United States and the idea of the United States in a way that I think most Americans don't. One of the things he would say to me is there was a slogan in the United States after 9-11, if you see something, say something. If you see a bomb on the bus stop, say something. Most Americans would chuckle at that. There was a cynical take on that. At the time, we were all making fun of the color-coded threat assessments that TSA put out. That was very much an American response to the government

uh, anti-terrorism policies. But to Flavio, this is something he took very seriously. If you see something, say something. And so his feeling was that when he went to Las Vegas and he saw organized Romanian organized criminals stealing credit cards, you know, if you see something, say something. So, so he did. So he went to the, went to, um, the FBI in Las Vegas. And with, when he gets the call from Andy Georgescu, his friend who ships cars for him from Los Angeles, uh,

He immediately calls the CIA seemingly under the same incentive. You know, if you see something, say something. So he calls the CIA any, any, and he, you know, describes everything that, that happens. One of the things that Flavio points to in the recordings of the calls, and I think it's important to point out, and we talk about it in one of the episodes, um,

is that there's a possibility that there was kind of a rough language misunderstanding or cultural difference. When Flavio has two different calls with the CIA, the second call with a male agent is more serious. And in that second call, the CIA agent says something to the effect of, you know, if we can verify this information, this is something we would look into.

And, you know, he's using kind of the royal we, what he really means, I think any native English speaker would interpret as meaning the CIA will look into it. And what Flavio says, with English being his second language, is he said, we'll look into this. And Flavio believes he was being kind of included in that. Whether you find that to be a credible explanation, I think is entirely, you know, a personal decision. What I would say is that

I asked this very question to Mark Pinto, the FBI agent who was his handler, thinking that if anyone could have a bead on whether this was a cover story or whether Flavio really thought he was working for the CIA, it would be Mark. And what Mark says is that he doesn't think Flavio was really putting together an arms deal. He really thinks Flavio's story...

is the correct one that he thought he was helping the CIA. But he also blames Flavio in the sense that he says Flavio really should have known better, right? Like Flavio had worked for the FBI. He really should have known that if you're going to do this, you need something in writing from the CIA saying this is what's happening. And he didn't get that. And that's a fair point because if we have FBI files about Flavio's cooperation with the FBI and in those files, there is an, there's a document that Flavio signed, you

you know, basically when they opened him as an informant. So there was an official record of him being an informant and he doesn't have anything like that for the CIA and Flavio admits that. And so again, I think that, that issue alone kind of helps raise the question again, like, was he, did he really think he was working for the CIA or did he know better and knew that this created a kind of ambiguity that he could then use to claim his innocence? Yeah.

Yeah, that linguistic moment actually was one of the most fascinating parts. It pops up around the middle of the series, I think. It's like one of the few moments where I think following the story along, I thought, oh, wait, maybe that is an interesting legal point. That was one of the few things I thought, oh, maybe that is going to hold up in the courtroom. Because, I mean, a lot of the story are like, oh, buddy, you're pretty screwed here. I mean...

How does it tie into, because your previous series, of course, dealt with kind of different agencies getting very stuck into the BLM movement as well. Different, very different context, different stories, different characters, but sort of similar themes running throughout. How do you think the two stories kind of interact with each other or kind of complement each other? What are the themes running through them, do you think?

Yeah, so this is the second season of Outback Boys, and the first season, as you mentioned, was about the FBI's infiltration of the racial justice movement in Denver. And in that particular case, the FBI used a violent felon named Mickey Windecker as an informant, and he...

over time became a leader of the Black Lives Matter movement in Denver and was encouraging violence. You know, we can attribute a fair amount of the violence and unrest to his incitement and encouragement, but then also was, was individually trying to entrap black activists and,

including this over-the-top plot to assassinate the state's attorney general, which went nowhere. And that story, like Flavio's story, really gets at the central theme that we try to explore in each season of Alpha Boys, which is, you know, to what degree the government's and intelligence agencies' use of sting operations to either...

get people involved in crimes that can be prosecuted or to gather intelligence in some way is creating the very criminals that they are searching for. And in the case of the first season, it was very clear that the government was not finding black activists willing to commit

substantial crimes. In fact, the FBI had considered it a domestic terrorism investigation, so they were looking for people to commit very deadly, serious crimes, and they couldn't find anyone. And so the informant is then encouraging people to do it, and ultimately failing to do it. And then in Flavio's case, what the DEA is doing in these sting operations is essentially the same thing. They are presenting the opportunity for someone to commit crime to help

deliver weapons to the FARC that might not otherwise happen were it not for the DEA presenting the opportunity. And Flavio's story kind of

It creates another layer to this, which is that what's interesting about Flavio's case is that the DEA ends up investigating Flavio, who had previously worked for the FBI as a source and who had called the CIA and reported the entire crime before he commits it. And so the DEA sting not only is potentially creating the very kind of narco-terrorist

agency is looking for, but also ends up wrapping up two other agencies, the FBI and the CIA, in the same case. And it just creates this general kind of sense of confusion among the agencies where you have this kind of farcical... this potentially farcical situation where basically the DEA is investigating...

a source of another agency. And, you know, the, the, the art that we have for the second season tries to kind of distill this, which is a, it's a play on that. The Superman mean where the, where the three Superman or Spider-Man, I'm sorry, the Spider-Man mean where the three Spider-Man are, are,

pointing at each other. And so we swapped out like G man looking guys doing it. Cause that's very much what this case ultimately becomes where, you know, the FBI says it's the D a D a is followed. The CIA says they had nothing to do with it. It was the DEA and the FBI. And to me, that's really fascinating. The other thing I think is that, that Flavio would argue. And one of the reasons that Flavio had spent so much time talking to me, um, is that, you know, a lot of my work has focused on the use of sting operations in various contexts, including, um,

for terrorism. And a very simple and often used formula for this is that they will, you know, in the post 9-11 era, the FBI had found

you know, an impressionable young Muslim man who wanted to commit violence or said he did, and they would provide him with a bomb, and then he would go and plant it somewhere and dial a phone that he expects to detonate it, and when it doesn't detonate, he's arrested and charged with, you know, conspiracy to use a weapon of mass destruction. And Flavio's argument is like, look, my case is like those, right? It started just like those cases. But mine is different because I didn't, as Flavio says, I didn't bite the bait. I...

I was, I called up the CIA and said, Hey, they're doing this. You want to know more? And to me, that was kind of this fascinating question about, you know, not only does it kind of allow you to kind of look at the efficacy and ethics of doing these kinds of sting operations, but then it also kind of in Flavio's case kind of helps point out maybe the potential absurdity of it, which is that, you know, not only are these agencies potentially creating crimes, but,

But they are perhaps even investigating each other at times unwittingly in that sense. Yeah. In case anyone doesn't realize already, I thought this show was awesome. It's such a fascinating topic to dig into. We'll stick up links to the show with this episode as well. What were you kind of working on at the moment, Trevor? You got series three in the hopper or are you working on any other kind of stuff?

Yeah, so I hope we were guaranteed a first two seasons. The second season is out now. Our hope is that we'll be renewed for seasons three and four. So I have some ideas about what I'd like to pursue, and I'm working on the early research of that. Our hope is that we can... One of the agencies that we really want to look at next is the ATF, Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms, and Explosives, which is an agency that often doesn't get

the level of attention that, you know, the FBI or the DEA or even the CIA does, but it's really an agency that's involved in a lot of kind of similar behavior and gun running conspiracies and others. And so, um, so I hope that is that either for season three or four, um, we'll be able to kind of look at a similar ATF case, but our goal in all of these cases, I should mention as well as obviously that we, what we want to try to put on display and put forward is,

for the listener is that, you know, and a requirement for any season or any case that we'll explore is getting access to the undercover recordings. And so, you know, as in seasons one and two, you know, a lot of the story is told through the undercover recording. So you hear the agent speaking to the targets in this case, Flavio, you know, talking about what happens. And then we compliment that,

with interviews with people involved to kind of give the full picture of what's, of what's happened. And so, you know, I think what's unique about the series and the reason I hope it will continue in the future seasons is that we are able to kind of bring listeners into this very kind of, you know, this world that few people are able, usually able to access, which is kind of the, the behind the scenes view of a, of an undercover investigation. Yeah.

Yes. Fascinating stuff. Um, well, thanks ever so much for joining us, Trevor. Um, hopefully we can catch up some more about season three then when that, when that appears. Um, yeah, thanks for having me. All right. Cheers. Take care. Thanks.