The Time the Mexican Army Ruined My Cartel Sleepover
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So at this point, I'm just like, this is worth the risk, right? We're going to go for it. Everything is booked. All the obstacles are out of the way. You know, we're set. I've got a cameraman coming from Istanbul. I've got tickets for me and my partner source type guy up here. I've got the hotel on the border in Nogales for one night. And you know, all of this is on my credit card. Like I'm fronting the entire thing. I'm that confident at this point that this is going to be huge.

Not just the video that we do, like the short doc, but like an article I'm going to write. And I think we were already doing the podcast for like eight months. And I'm thinking the episode I make about this, it's going to blow this thing up. Underworld is going to be huge. You know, I'm already envisioning the interview on like Rogan and all that. When it comes to the trip itself, I'm not sure.

I've pretty much resigned myself to the fact that we're going to be spending a few days straight, like overnights at this like cartel Sicario chiefs compound. That's basically the headquarters for these guys that are in the middle of this war against this famous narco. But that's the only option. We have to completely trust ourselves over to this guy who we've never actually met face to face, who is a real deal cartel killer that commands dozens, if not hundreds of men. And

And at this point, like I'm, I'm okay with that. Well, as, as much as I can be that, you know, just gets me to the level of saying yes, you know, do I feel great about it? No, but I'm excited. And so it's, I think five days, maybe a week before we're about to leave. And this has been months, months of building up and like making sure everything was cool and figuring it all out.

And I wake up that morning and I get a text and I don't remember exactly. It was either, either came in super late at night or it came in really early in the morning. I think actually early in the morning. And that's just like, you know, there's no good text ever comes like that on like a weeknight, but it's really unusual. Cause my guy who I'm calling, uh, I'll call him John. He doesn't really do that sort of thing.

And it's just like, call me. I think that's it again, very unusual. And I knew, like, I just knew what it was going to be and what happens. Like even, you know, the best laid plans of mice and men do not stand a goddamn chance when the Mexican federalities get involved.

Welcome back. This is the Underworld Podcast, where every week, two journalists who have worked all over the world and should have taken the other side of the fork in the road, regale you with stories of international criminal exploits from some of our reporting and our research and all that, and all the fun things that come with it. I am one of your hosts, Danny Gold, and I am here with your other host, Sean Williams, who is in the midst of some wild journalistic journey right now that could be the subject of a book, but

I don't know if he can actually talk about it. Can you? Can you at this point? I so badly want to talk about it because it's absolutely insane. What can I say? I mean, I actually can't say much about it because the guy who is the central character doesn't know that I know this explosive information about him. So I'm kind of stringing him along for a bit. He's not a good guy, so don't worry about it. Yeah.

Let's just say I've got a spreadsheet open. It's got 134 names on it. I'm expecting that to double in the next couple days. I'm kind of like that always sunny guy in the meme with the whiteboard and a million different arrows pointing places. It's wild, but yeah, it's going to probably drop. He's going to figure out soon, so all shit is going to hit the fan in a week or two. Until then, I better keep a lid on it. Yeah, you guys can't see it, but I'm smiling from ear to ear. I'm sorry that we're just teasing that, but it's...

It's going to be funny. So stay tuned. I guess we'll do an episode on it eventually. Hopefully relatively soon. Oh, for sure. It's going to make me look like an idiot. No, no. Anyway, as always, patreon.com slash underworldpodcast to support us financially and get bonus episodes with interviews. And we do some shorter episodes too. There's also merch on our website at underworldpod.com. I think slash merch, M-E-R-C-H.

you know, the don't Instagram your crimes, t-shirts and stickers and hoodies and all that sort of stuff. You can also email us at the underworld podcast at gmail.com for any reason, story ideas. If you want to advertise with us, you know,

So do the podcast stuff, rate us, watch the YouTube channel, all that nonsense. But actually seriously do it because I just incorporated and set up a business account. And like, I don't know how to do this stuff, man. I'm a creative type, you know? It's really annoying. It was a nightmare and I had to make it worthwhile. So hit us with some funds.

And you can also subscribe with one click for bonuses on Apple. So do that. Yeah. Didn't you get sleeve test specifically so you could avoid this kind of corporate nonsense? No, I just can't. I just can't do it, man. It's really hard. Someone else should be doing it for us, but that's not, we're not at that level yet, but yeah.

So this episode, if you can't tell because of our rambling already, it's going to be a little different. It's definitely going to include some good information about the Caborca cartel, you know, the battle for Sonora and Mexico and all that. But it's going to be told through the prism of this opportunity I had.

wild opportunity. This thing that was supposed to happen involving me going and making a documentary about the head of an armed wing of the Sinaloa cartel of Los Chapitos who invited me. Well, I mean, mostly he invited my connection who we will get to, but me as well. Like, you know, we FaceTime and he was cool with it and liked my website, but we're going to spend a few days with them and get unprecedented access to the cartels. And it didn't happen.

You know, a lesser podcaster would have leveraged that for a square face, but we're above that. We just didn't get the opportunity to. Come get us. This wasn't like some bunch of nobodies in Kulia Khan or the same fentanyl lab that the three fixers everyone uses brings every journo to.

It wasn't like no-name guys wearing balaclavas in a field. No disrespect to the journalists who do that. I've done that sort of stuff. Some disrespect. No, no, because I do that too. I would do it as well. But I want to make the point that this was actually different. It was real deal. A guy with a name...

a high level guy with the name who wasn't just going to be like, oh, a commander. You know, he was going to show his face. Unprecedented access to his life, not in a field, not in some lab, but like in his home, his compound, with his men, you know, the stuff he was already showing us, the access he was giving us to his life just on FaceTime alone was just blowing my mind. But,

We're going to get to all that. The point is, if you don't like when we tell stories about ourselves or like any of the self-referential journalism stuff, insidery sort of things about the process and setting up and reporting trips, this is not the episode for you. Like go back and listen to last week's episode with Sean reporting live from Nepal. That was incredible.

Because you're only going to hate this and I just can't listen to any more whining comments about free content we make at a loss. Anyway, but yeah. I think navel-gazy is the term. But yeah, I've been kind of busy so this was a kind of quick episode we wanted to get done. So here we go.

I got clearance from my guy, John, to tell it, the guy I'm calling John. And I think I've been a little hesitant to tell this story because a lot of journalists will kind of frown on telling it. It shows the process and some kind of real risk-taking that could reflect negatively on them. But the industry is, in general, so full of shit with stuff like that that I just don't really care.

Like one time I was told I didn't get a job offer. They flew me out to London for an interview because I mentioned sneaking into Syria in the interview, which is like one, everyone's not going to Syria. You couldn't go legally. And two, I know people like from that network and other prestigious networks,

they always come to be against risk, but they push it further than anyone else pushing it, you know, and they go into places like, like people get hurt because of stuff that like some of these bigger, we don't do risk stuff. People have done, people get hurt, but that is a story for another day.

Yeah, I mean like the freelance thing too, right? Like magazines, TV stations, they claim they don't want inexperienced folks or anyone who's like not with the station or the mag to go into war zones. I get that though. You know, if it's good enough, they don't mind taking it either. And they don't pay insurance or accommodation or anything else. I mean, it's a constant argument. But I mean, I get not experience, but also, you know, don't play that. Whatever. Keep going. Yeah.

Anyway, it's probably good I didn't get the job because that entire outlier division, they were starting collapse like six months later and everyone got laid off, screwed over a ton of my friends. So maybe it was ill-advised. I'm not going to name any names, but if you look into American networks who try to create a new foreign news division right before the pandemic, you'll probably figure it out. Is that a British friend that we both know maybe? Yes. Someone that got pulled over to them? Yeah. Okay. I know what you're saying. Great man. A couple of other people too got screwed over by them. But

This story starts with me getting a cryptic message on social media asking if I wanted to make a documentary in Mexico on some cartel stuff. Now, it's not that abnormal when you're in the position that me and Sean are in. Not the podcast in general, but that helps, but also just the reporting that we've done.

to get these sort of messages when you do the kind of work that we do. I've had people reach out to me with all sorts of wild offers. I'm sure Sean has too. 99% of the time, it's all nonsense and they're full of shit. And I'm generally pretty unlikely to get involved unless it really sounds legit. And even then, you got to be skeptical as hell because everyone has their agenda, their hustle. I've had war embed type stuff, come spend time with us. I

that sort of stuff, criminal organizations. Some actually may be in the pipeline, but we'll see what happens with that. Yeah, actually, that story that I just mentioned, that kind of started off a little bit like that, which, I don't know, alarm bell should have been ringing, but I want to give a massive big up to the Indian guy as well, who keeps messaging us on social saying he wants to be part of our underworld. That is like, that is proper rising grind. Yeah, this guy messages me and we start talking.

And he tells me what he has going on. And keep in mind, I don't know who this guy is yet. I don't even have a name. But the summary is he's gotten really involved in like the Mexican narco news stuff. You know, there's tons of websites and social media stuff out there tracking this stuff every day, reporting it on social media, just really staying up to the date on everything, all the minutiae.

All the narco news websites and reports, there's a ton that goes out. People track the TikToks and the Instagrams and Twitter and the Facebook and all that. And this guy, he's Hispanic. He knows the language and the slang really well. He's a military vet. He has things kind of figured out. He's capable. He's smart. You know, all that. And he knows his stuff.

What had happened is, through the course of a few months, he had basically befriended the guy, or this guy, who was a high-level cartel operative, like a head Sicario and Los Chapitos, which is the faction of Sinaloa formed by Chapo's kids when Chapo got arrested and kind of split off. And this guy controlled dozens, if not hundreds of men,

and was in the midst of fighting this war versus a very prominent narco. And the guy was what you would call a plaza boss. He was their head guy in Sonora. He ran the armed wing responsible for an entire Mexican state. Not a small fry, very powerful. And just also, Sicario...

People might think it still means like assassin or hitman, but basically it's like soldier these days, right? These guys are armies. They're kitted out. They have the camo. They're fighting pitched battles. They're not just like pulling up to somebody on a motorbike most of the time and then like letting off a few shots. Like they're soldiers. So,

This guy who I'm calling John, he had befriended this guy, I think through social media, to the point where they were FaceTiming every week and he was showing him stuff he should not have been showing him. And I guess if you're wondering what the deal was with his OPSEC, this guy, this Mexican narco and him not caring about it, like so was I. My eventual conclusion was that he felt untouchable.

I think something we eventually came around on, maybe he actually told me this himself, was that since he wasn't really a trafficker, like he didn't move weight into the US, he was only a soldier who fought the battles in Mexico. The US hadn't charged him or wasn't interested in him. So he wasn't super concerned, but who knows if that's true. It's like actually-

shocking how many sources reach out just because they kind of want to grandstand and show off about stuff. I mean, I'm all for it. Like, I love it. No, I don't think, I don't think, keep doing it guys. I don't think that's necessarily true. Like a lot,

I think these days there's a lot less of that because people can show stuff for themselves. But I think at some point when you get like a, um, a reputation for doing these stories, well, they want, people want to maybe tell their story. People have interesting things to say sometimes. And like, maybe they don't feel like they're getting the recognition they deserve or they just like, like what we're doing and want to be a part of it. I mean, that happened at vice a lot, you know, people like have seen the stuff that would, that we had done and they, they were into it. Um,

I think that's a, that's a, and they're smart. You know, there are people who are very smart and very capable of doing that and they know the risks and they know how to do that without getting themselves in further trouble. So I, you know, don't, uh, I'm not, I'm, you know, I'm, I'm all about it. Holler at me. So, you know, my source who I'm calling John, he befriends this guy and eventually the guy, the cartel guy offers him to come hang out and do an interview to film, to basically make like a short documentary about him and his life.

And John, having never done this sort of thing, he reached out to me. I think we had talked before about some stuff or he knew the podcast and knew the previous work I had done. So yeah, I mean, that was it. That's just how it came about. But I didn't know this guy. I didn't even know his real name. And I'm not just going to jump on something with someone I don't know. I want to suss him out too, right?

So it turns out he was in the tri-state area and we make a plan to meet at a bar in Brooklyn and just like, you know, get a bite, feel each other out. You know, I had to make sure this guy wasn't trying to set me up. Wasn't too crazy, you know, had a good head on his shoulders and was for real. And we just did that. And we did. And the guy was, was legit. You know, his background kind of checked out and we made a plan to meet later and FaceTime with his plaza boss in a week or two.

So some background on the boss himself. His name is El Durango, and he is or was a top-level Sicario operating under Los Chapitos, which is the sort of cartel that's been formed by El Chapo's sons. They're a faction of Sinaloa. If you guys know Sinaloa, we've talked about them a bunch before.

El Chapo's cartel, along with El Mayo, they were the two leaders. Once Chapo was locked up for good, it kind of split a bit. And one faction has Los Chapitos, which are Chapo's sons, led by them. The other faction is led by El Mayo, who everyone knows Chapo. El Mayo, though, is, you know, was, some people say even higher than El Chapo, smart, plays the shadows, never been arrested. One of the OGs has been doing it for decades. So a very

powerful and sharp guy. But this guy was operating under Los Chapitos. So he headed up a group called Gente Nueva, which had been a special forces type unit, apparently started decades earlier under Chapo, that was meant to fight the Juarez cartel. So he was the head of Delta Group 2, which again, you know,

I think there were meant to be some deadly tactical force of killers in Sonora. I don't know if Delta Group is a part of Gente Nueva. I don't know if they're a special unit in them or if the name is interchangeable. I'm not really tapped into all the minutia of the cartel groups and the fighting. It's not really my thing, but this guy was the boss of it and a boss in general. He was the boss of the armed wing

of this faction, the Sinaloa Cartel, Los Chapitos in Sonora, which is one of the largest Mexican states and also borders the Southwestern US. So it's really got prime drug trafficking routes. So, you know, I say all that to say, this guy wasn't, he wasn't a joke. He wasn't like a little guy. Like he could make these kinds of calls, you know, he was high up.

There's an article on the website InfoBay, which terrible name, but good articles. And actually Borderland Beat too has some stuff on him. And it was about how he, this is from like a few months before we started talking, how he was showing up to like, you know, pediatric clinics or pediatric wards and giving kids money or giving the parents money for chemo treatment for kids, that sort of thing. Here's a quote from it.

Thank you very much to Mr. Durango for supporting my girl Reina with the amount of 1,000 pesos for the medical supplies she needs for her chemo at the pediatric hospital. God fill her with blessings, says the little girl's mother, who also appears in the video and adds, thank you very much, blessings. Ah, classic narco move. Learn from the greats. Yeah, I mean, I think he was...

with his legacy at that point, which is probably another reason that he was talking to us. Like I said, he was on Insta a bit. He was sharing stuff. From what my guy was saying, in terms of what his motivation was for wanting to do this,

It seemed like he knew his time was near or something along those lines. Like he wanted a change. Maybe he was like showing academic books. He was studying and talking philosophy. It seemed like maybe he wanted out of life. Like, I think he was in his late thirties and most of the guys, like the real deal shooters, the Sicario's, they don't live that long. You know, if you're in your late thirties, you're an elder Statesman. And he just seemed like he had had enough of that life and wanted to leave a legacy of sorts.

Or maybe he just wanted some attention and was up high enough that he could make those calls. You know, I remember telling, telling John, I was like, keep asking him, like, are you 100% sure your bosses are okay with this? Cause I mean, like even a cartel Sicario, I don't want some video of him getting tortured and murdered to come out because he gave me like the MTV Cribs version of Narcos, you know? Yeah.

I mean, what's the opposite of don't Instagram your crimes? Like don't do Instagram your charities? I don't know. But yeah, like I'm loving the fact that we get listened to by DEA agents and narco traffickers. Like, is there actually a better vindication than that? Other than money, of course. I don't know if DEA, I definitely had like,

We've had some special agents and stuff like this, right? Yeah, definitely. So I don't know if the agents would take it too kindly, especially your last Nepal episode. But maybe, who knows? Ministry of Secrets is the first of the cover-up series exploring one of the great unsolved mysteries of the Cold War. At its heart is a missing person, a wartime hero and international celebrity.

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So El Durango and Los Chapitos, they're in the midst of a war. They were back then, I think they still are, with the Caborca cartel, which is headed by Rafael Caracintero, you know, Narco of Narcos, great nickname. He is the killer of DEA agent Kiki Camarena, which if you've seen Narcos Mexico, I mean, you know, this guy, one of the OG cartel bosses who did decades in prison before being released on a technicality, I think 10 years ago.

So let's get into Los Chapitos and Caro Quintero, you know, as they were the ones fighting. And I still think are fighting that war over the drug trafficking routes in Sonora into Arizona. Caro Quintero is originally born in Sinaloa, like every other drug trafficker. He's born in 1952. He starts out in the drug trade as a marijuana grower, where he proved to be very skilled. And in the 1970s, he teams up with Miguel Angel Felix Gallardo to form the Guadalajara cartel.

The Guadalajara cartel was like the first nationwide cartel formed in Mexico. And it's a predecessor to all the cartels that we have seen coming after it. You know, they were some of the originators.

All the leaders of the cartels, the big names that everyone knows, they were working under the umbrella of the Guadalajara cartel. Just to name a few of the notable ones, you know, the Arellano Felix brothers, they'd go on to form the Tijuana cartel. Amadou Carrillo Fuentes, aka the Lord of the Skies, who would go on to form the Juarez cartel. El Chapo, who goes on to form Sinaloa. I think this is all like the first two seasons of Narcos Mexico, if you've seen that, covers this entire period. And it's actually, it's very well done.

So, yeah. And like folks, folks can listen to a bunch of our shows, right? You, you did one on the Lord of the skies. Uh, we've done it. We've done a couple of us on the various cartels as well. So guys can go back through the back. Noah Horowitz, I think helped us out with some of those who wrote that book about, about chopper. Yeah. And every bonus we've done with Owen Grillo, he's talked about, I think a lot of this stuff. So there's a lot, a lot, a lot of back catalog on that.

Quintero, he's actually really considered to be one of the godfathers of the Mexican cartel world. He really revolutionized the drug business in Mexico and was one of the first dudes to link up with the Colombians to start transporting cocaine into the U.S.,

They say by age 29, he already had $500 million stashed away. And that's like 1980s money, you know, or 1970s money. So that's legit. But the downfall of the Guadalajara cartel begins in the mid 80s when the DEA raids one of these huge marijuana ranches, which allegedly produced like billions of dollars worth of weed for the cartel. And to retaliate, they kidnapped the DEA agent, Kiki Camarena, which...

You know, there's a lot to look into with that and who was involved and how he was killed. But, you know, that's a whole episode on itself. Needless to say, he gets killed. Quintero is held responsible and the DEA and the U.S. government, they just go nuts after that. He ends up fleeing to Costa Rica, but he's caught soon after in 1985.

And that murder becomes this watershed moment in the drug war because it really shows the Mexican cartel guys, like, you know, the U.S. agents are off limits, even if they're in Mexico or Colombia. You know, the Mexican cartels, they go on to kill numerous, like, Mexican government officials, military journalists, judges, police officers, civilians in the most brutal fashions. But they will not touch a DEA agent still.

Is that white privilege? I mean, Kiki Camarena, I don't know. I hear what he said. Yeah, I think, I don't know if it applies here, but back to Quintero, he gets sentenced to 40 years in prison, which was the max allowed in Mexico at the time. And he actually serves decades in there, like he actually does, which is, I guess, surprising.

But he was one of the top kingpins, very rich, so I'm sure he lived pretty well. And it's thought that he still stayed on top of the drug trade. And then in 2013, he's mysteriously released on a technicality, something about being tried improperly 28 years ago, which I mean, most people just assume, I don't know if it's been effectively proven with evidence, but most people just assume it was a massive bribe.

So he's immediately placed on the wanted list by the DEA and the FBI. You know, $20 million reward for information leading to his capture is eventually placed on his head. And...

He does somehow remain, I think, under the radar for a few years because he's released during the sort of El Chapo mania period. And then the next couple of years, Chapo's arrested, then he's escaped, then arrested. So all the focus is sort of on him. He's the big name player and he kind of gets forgotten a little bit. Interestingly enough, they say when he's released, he actually was offered a high position in the Sinaloa cartel by El Mayo, but he declined. El Mayo, like I said, one of the heads of the Sinaloa cartel.

Maybe one of those powerful cartel leaders out there just played the shadows, stays in the background, kind of a genius and just really shadowy. He hasn't been arrested a bunch like El Chapo and he hides out, you know? Yeah. I mean, he's not doing interviews with Sean Penn, which is probably a good indicator that you're the brains of the operation, right? I think he did an interview years ago, like one magazine, I'm not sure, but Quintero actually did an interview, I think in 2016 with this magazine Proceso. And he says, quote,

I am not at war with anyone. El Chapo and El Mayo are my friends, which, you know, that's kind of, that's nice, you know? Apparently though, he doesn't get along with Chapo's kids, Los Chapitos, or doesn't respect them because he ends up forming his own thing with some family members and that's what we call the Caborca Cartel. Caborca is a big municipality in Sonora, you know, prime drug trafficking routes since it borders the US. Okay, so if he's friends with you, he's friends, but then he's going to kill your friends.

I think that it might. I mean, these guys, are they ever really friends either? You know, isn't the whole thing just like eventually they backstab each other and go after each other no matter how friendly they are. Yeah. Fun random fact. One of Quintero's sons is an Olympic competing equestrian and represented Mexico in the Beijing games in 2008. And you know, the truth is, and this is an important lesson for people to learn. Anyone who does fancy competitive horse riding stuff,

Their parents are likely involved in organized crime and their hands are definitely bloody. It's just the nature of the sport. Yeah, I mean, it's pretty much the same in Britain as well with like weird fox hunting bridges. Around the world. I'm going to just die on a hill here for a second. Did you know that in the Olympics they used to have like professional or like Olympic standard knitting and poetry and stuff like that? That was part of the Olympics as well as the running and shit. When?

I think we should bring that back. When was that part of it? I think that's great. I actually... Like a hundred years ago or something. Jamie, Jamie, will you fact check that? I'm just kidding. We don't... But someone should fact check that. I'm not going to look it up right now, but there's no way... Bring back knitting. Yeah, there's no way that's true. Hashtag. I would... I'm not going to wager on it because you seem like you know what you're talking about, but I seriously, seriously doubt that. By 2017, the Borca cartel is up and running, but...

That's Chapo's territory, right? And even though he's in and out of prison and escapes during that time period, that's not going to go over too well. So I think they're kind of playing it a little, or Quintero is kind of playing it a little close to the chest at that point. But when he finally gets locked up again and his sons step up and we have that fracture and Los Chapitos emerge...

That's a few of his kids who link up and lead that other main faction of the Sinaloa Cartel, the other led by El Mayo. Remember, cartels are federations usually. They're not top-down organizations. But anyway, there's this split. El Mayo takes some. Los Chapitos take some. They're not exactly super well-respected. Those guys actually clash at some point. But the Caborca guys, led by Quintero, they sense an opening in that late 2000 teens period, like 2018, 2019, with Chapo locked up, and they start to move on it.

And just because Contero, like we said, was cool with Chapo doesn't mean he's going to respect his kids.

And Quintero also has deep ties to the Caborca region, which, you know, it's right. I think if you look at it, it like borders part of, um, of that Gulf of California. Right. So it's not Baja, but it's right after that. And then goes up and actually only has like a small border next to, um, that municipality only has a small border next to Arizona, but obviously there's lots of stuff on the side and, uh, it just, it's, it's good territory. But, um, this is from El Pais quote, um,

Some recall the arrival of Caro Quintero's family to the Sonoran Desert town in the 80s. A reporter who worked in the area for more than two decades recalls an image from a time before the streets were even paved, a pink limousine. Quote, Caro brought a lot of money to the town. The people hold him and his family in high regard. Many still live here.

I mean, I don't want to piss on these chips too hard, but I would simply not buy a pink limousine in an unpaved town. That doesn't sound like a sound. Maybe, you know, they, uh, they, they fixed up the tires and they were riding on, you know, big wheels. You never know. All right. Now we're talking. Those guys, you know, they like to mod it out, but yeah.

The cartels, they're going to end up doing what cartels do and they start killing each other over those routes. And it really goes public in May of 2020 when two dismembered bodies appeared with a message that commented on the situation, quote, the people of the coast are informed that we are people from Caracantaro. This square belonged to us and now all those producers, merchants, and miners in the region will have to pay a fee. That's how you know it gets serious in Mexico when they start doing the homemade banners everywhere.

With the dismembered bodies. So...

always uh yeah it's the same it's the same in new zealand as well like the same kind of deal did i ever tell you there was like once uh a tv show i think idea that we were working on about like people who do pr for just like evil companies and every every episode would be like a different you know like cartel or like jihadi group or something like that and they'd have to like solve a problem and then the one of the episodes like their idea was start chopping off the feet and not the heads just to show that you're different and to like make a splash it was a dark comedy

A very, very dark, very dark comedy. So yeah, we have a full-fledged war on our hands. And if you, again, look at that map of Mexico, you can see why it's an area that was going to be fought over. It's prime for getting people and drugs into the U.S.,

So, all right, back to Brooklyn. This is like winter, spring-ish 2021. Me and John meet at my apartment a few weeks later after our dinner where we sussed each other out.

And we FaceTime with El Durango. I actually, I still have the video somewhere and it's wild. Like if I wasn't convinced before, I am 1000% convinced now. Like I'm dead set on doing this. He's just like, you know, we're asking him questions and he's casually showing us all his men. They're kitted out in camo. They're cleaning their guns, big guns, loading up their ammo and like the outdoor area, this courtyard, you know, they're getting ready to go on an ambush or patrol or something like that.

This is better than the backgrounds I have on my Zoom calls. But like, is this video available? Can we see this video? I mean, I haven't. I don't know if I'm going to stick it up. We'll see. If I stick up anywhere, it'll be on the Patreon. But like... Oh, come on. He's making one guy show us his bullet scars from the war. Another he's telling us is a mercenary, I think, from El Salvador or Guatemala, which actually Salvador has...

a mercenary contingency. It's in this wall. The whole area is in this wall compound. They've got all these four wheelers and trucks, but he's also showing us his house, asking us if we'd like the decor. He's showing us his wine collection, his dog, who is a lovely looking retriever. You know I love a retriever. - This is actually an episode of Crypt for sure. - It's insane. At one point he puts his 14 year old niece on, or 13 year old niece because she was studying English.

He's asking us what we want to do when we come, if you want to go out on patrols. Like it's truly nuts. I don't think anyone's ever done something like this when it comes to this sort of thing with a known guy like that. Like I think he asked us to bring him at one point a pair of a specific hiking boots that he wanted, you know, and he just got his guys out like a dozen guys and they're like laughing and joking around in their camo, just loading up ammo, like ready to go out on, on patrol. It's, it's insane.

Did you pitch him the cutting the feet off thing? I reckon that would have gone down pretty well. No, I didn't. I'm not going to cross that line. I'm not looking to do comms. I mean, I was pretty desperate at that point, but I wasn't looking to do comms for these guys.

The compound too, it's actually located in an area outside Altar, which if you look at it on a map is very close to Caborca. It's like 100 miles south of the Arizona border through the desert. It's also an insanely dicey area. It's like a huge stopping point for people smugglers and traffickers bringing groups into the states or migrants looking to link up and head into the desert and make it over there, which is going to figure into some eventual logistical decisions that I'll discuss later. But

after this video conference, you know, me actually speaking to this dude and seeing how for real he is. I'm like, I have to go like, this is it. This is big. Yeah. This is, this is going to be big. Sean, I think we were, we were, yeah, I was talking to you about it. I remember talking to you about this. We were talking to you about this. Yeah. We were doing the podcast. It was early days.

The thing is, though, I'm not reckless. I'm scared, for real. There's only been, I think, two situations where I've been really, really scared to do a story. One was an embed that I was offered in North Syria in 2016, which was just real kidnapping hours at that point. It didn't end up working out, but I was very scared of doing it. I probably would have, but I was not...

Not looking forward to it. And the second was back in 2014. I had met, maybe it was 2015, but I had met this reporter who was also like a former French special forces or French foreign Legion guy. I have a few reporter friends like that, but we met in the central African Republic or maybe, maybe Cameroon before I, I went over there. She met a few of them that sense at central African Republic, which is interesting, but

This guy... CIR is pretty crazy. This guy was just cool as hell. Great reporter. And he reached out to me a while later about a story he was doing. He wanted to make a doc. It would be going along on a refugee raft

from Libya to Italy, I think. What was it, Lampedusa? I think it was Lampedusa. On the sea. You know what I'm talking about. These aren't strung together with boards. They're big, heavy-duty rafts, but it's still gnarly. He said it would take a couple days. I think he had done it already. I can't forget him talking about how he knew the captain. He called him a real seawolf, which I really like that phrase. I remember thinking, like,

it was going to be absolutely terrifying, you know? But like I had to, I had to do it. Yeah. And I trusted this guy. Yeah. But, uh, and I had this weird thing. Like I was, I was advised at the time I had just done, or the Ebola story had just gotten a Webby award. Right. And I was at the award ceremony and Shane Smith was there and he's like, he's like, you were a good boy not coming back and spreading Ebola. Like that's how he talks to people. Come by my office tomorrow. I got something for you. So I go to his office the next day.

And I sit down and he's like, I'm going to write you a check, like a bonus. And I was so worked up about this story. And my boss had said no. And I was like, I don't want money. Just let me do this story. Which if you're a young reporter, don't make that mistake. Always take the money. But he heard me out and he was like, I can't let you do that. We'd have to send a boat after you just in case. It just won't work.

And I ended up like making him like pitching him a Rohingya story and he said, fine, but I probably could have got that approved anyway. So it was just the giant waste. And it's a major regret. I should have 100% taken the money. I told the colleague that story afterward, like a couple of days later. And he was like, you're an idiot. Shane like buys people motorcycles.

So yes, I am an idiot. I ended up doing the Rohingya story like a year later. I actually probably made one of the best docs I've ever made, but no one paid attention. It was called Myanmar's Muslim Minority or Left 4 Dead. Look it up. It's on my website. It's incredible. But the moral of the story is take the check. Always. Let them cut the check and then take that check. But what was I talking about? TV, man. No. God.

There is a TV like they would just literally, oh my God, it would take a committee of like 20 people to get a print journalist out to be on my, to get this one done. But, um, actually there's a reporter who did a much crazier refugee boat story. Luke Mogelson, one of the best writers in the world.

I think it's called the Great Easter Island Boat Lift or something. It was for the New York Times Magazine, I think. So it's one of the best pieces of journalism I've ever read. Go look it up. There's also like a video, like an eight second clip of them on the boat. I think the photographer took while he was on it and it just like shows the raft like

going up and down. It's gnarly, man. It's an incredible piece of work. It's amazing. I think it's from 2012, and I think it's Christmas Island. Christmas Island, that's right. Australia, Indonesia kind of way. It's unreal. It's just the best piece of journalism in the world. I digress a bit, but the point is

I was scared and I wanted to try to figure stuff out. So I start to make some calls, you know, to feel it out, see what my colleagues or friends who had done this sort of work before in the region, you know, done some real cartel stuff, maybe not as crazy as this, but close. I think there were three that I called,

And the consensus was kind of like, sure, why not? I mean, nah, like they were definitely nervous and like taking it seriously, but they were also kind of like, maybe go for it. And the reasoning was kind of, you know, the same thing I was thinking about too, which it's not the Middle East, right? It serves no purpose for these guys to kidnap American journalists. Like it's actually kind of the dumbest shit they can do. Like they don't want that level of attention. Um,

Now, obviously these guys are lunatics, right? And they're violent. So who knows what could happen? You know, they're in a war. There's also that front, like they could get shot up. They could get attacked. Who knows what could happen. But at the end of the day, the thing is like, fuck it. You know, I'll, uh, I'll mitigate the risk, which I always do. And it was worth it. Like I was convinced the story would have escalated my career and it would have been big. Um,

You know, I always talk about that Kobani story under siege where my cameraman didn't get through and I did. And that feeling of regret afterwards about how your career would have been made. And this is, this was that too. You know, if it had worked out, let's just say I probably wouldn't be making a goddamn podcast in my bedroom is all, you know? Oh, I'm hurt.

So, you know, then I'm... Yeah, come back from that. Yeah. Yeah. What are you going to say now? Anyway, I'm basically like, I'm going to do this story now. I think it's like a couple months from the first conversation, but I need to put together a crew or at least find a shooter, find some funding, figure out the logistics. So it's just more time delays. The usual way to do this is pitching. I kind of almost didn't bother. Maybe I reached out to one or two people I knew because who's going to sign off on that, right? No one's going to okay that.

So that left, you know, self-funding on the credit card. And I would have to find a cameraman on spec, which means that he works for free until we sell it, which is not...

It's not an easy thing to do. You don't want to ask people to do that. I have enough of a community too that I think I could have found someone relatively easily, but also this sort of ask, right? It's not just like a regular assignment. It's something very dangerous. There's no guarantee of pay. I'm asking someone to do probably the riskiest thing in their career, and I can't really guarantee their safety at all. So I kind of felt, yeah, I wasn't as aggressive in asking people, but I found a friend I worked with before who was willing to do it,

and we're set up and we're good to go. Then it's logistics, right? So that's tough. But I figure flying to Tucson, get a ride across the border to Nogales. But El Durango's compound is somewhere outside Altar, which is...

maybe like an hour and a half, two hours drive. I don't remember exactly, but it's a gnarly drive too. One that's going to take hours. Nogales is relatively safe, but that drive is not safe. You know, even though El Durango's people kind of do control the territory, there's like no telling what could happen. You know, things could go wrong if not one day than the other day. But like, what's our option then? Right. We could stay at a hotel on the border and do that, drive it back every day. I think it's like four hours of driving through a dicey area day after day. A lot that could go wrong.

So we decide, you know what? It's probably safer just to overnight it at the compound. You know, that's right. We're going to have a sleepover. I mean, just like the guy's got a big house hanging out to crack some of that wine open. Like it could very well come under attack, but also, you know, his daughter was there at one point. Not his daughter. I'm sorry. His niece, his dudes were kitted out.

It's definitely the safer of the options. It's not a great option. There is no great options in this, but it's the safer one. So we'll spend three or four days tops, hang out, get insane footage and come back. Yeah. I mean, people famously don't attack rival Narcos houses, right? So you'd probably be safe there. Well, you know, they were doing well and, uh, and it was, it was kidding. And the wine's good. Yeah. But well, I mean, what, like, what would you have done? Like, would you have taken that drive every day?

I think the drive is more dangerous than just staying. We're already trusting this guy with our life. He's probably got nice big bedrooms and places to stay. I'm excited, man. I'm ready to go. It's nearing the end of March. I'm about to buy the tickets and my friend is like, I can't do it. I shoot her. I have another shoot a few days after for some snowboarding thing. What if we get delayed? I don't want to risk it. I think maybe he was...

Maybe he was a little scared, but also it's like, I kind of understand, right? It's a risky thing to do. He has guaranteed money, you know, but at the same time, I want to just fucking strangle him, just murder him. Especially a few months later when, you know, everything went wrong, but he's out.

So now I need to find another shooter. And I start talking to this journalist based in Latin America who works for one of the British channels or freelances. I think his name was Guillermo. He has experience in this world. He's done some good work. I think he was actually working on something about the Mormons killed near there at the time. And he wanted me to ask El Durango about it. And he was offering to come with me and shoot it if he could also do an interview about that. But he was like, we're playing these weird games.

you know, he started trying to snake me in a weird way. Like he started telling me some fixer he knew was telling our, or was telling him that El Durango was telling other journalists they could embed as well, which I don't even know what his motivation was and why he was saying that, but it was obviously a lie. You know, he was trying to play me for some reason. It just didn't make sense. Like I couldn't see his angle. Maybe they try to get me to go sooner, but needless to say, it didn't work out. And, uh, and, and just fuck that guy, you know, we're airing it all out today.

No, I mean like I had, I had the same with this gangland fixer in Mumbai recently is the story I'm going to head off to do in a month or two. Uh,

out in western India it's going to be really cool but he just kept ducking and diving and pretending he knows people and folding me numbers that don't lead anywhere and he's like I know this guy I can get you in touch with this guy do not do this like we are actually journalists we can figure this stuff out eventually this guy wasn't even a fixer he was a producer it didn't make sense to me

That's even weirder. Yeah, we're airing it all out. You start a podcast that makes as much money as a part-time waiter or Applebee's, you don't have to care anymore. You can just start burning bridges. Fuck you money. What's it called? An elastic good? Is that the term? It just depends on how tired you are. And I am tired. So...

The point of that story, what was the point of that story? The point of that story was that- What is the point of that story? Yeah. That guy wasted another two weeks of my time, which again, if you're paying attention to the theme, a lot of time being wasted here that could have been spent doing this story

But finally I connect with a great shooter who was based in Istanbul and he was on board. He was so gung-ho about it. I was like, are you sure you're not a little concerned? He's like, no, let's do this. I think I even at one point before that had posted on my IG, which is private, just being like, does anyone know or is anyone an experienced cameraman willing to do a dangerous assignment on spec? That's how desperate I was. But it worked. And I bought all the tickets, the flights, the hotel, everything. We're set to go.

And then like five days before the flight, that text message comes in and it's that scene from the, from the open, man. It's just like, I, like I knew, you know, I saw it. It didn't even hint at anything. It was like, yo, just call me. And I, I just knew, like, I just, I knew it was too good to be true. It wasn't going to work out. And I called John and he's like, they got him. And I'm like, who got him? And he's like, everyone, like literally everyone got him and he's not getting out. I think John actually spoke to the niece at one point, but, um,

Here's an article from April 21st, 2021, InfoBay.com. The headline, blow to Los Chapitos, El Durango fell, the boss of the plaza in charge of the fight against Caro Quintero. The leader of the Delta group was transferred aboard an armed forces helicopter in the middle of a strong operation.

and the whole operation coordinated by the Army, the National Guard, and the Attorney General's office. I've just been saying the Federales because I feel like that's the catch-all that sounds good. The Army, the National Guard, and the Attorney General's office, they're not playing around. They're not just going to throw him in the local jail either. He doesn't stay local. He's transferred in an armed force helicopter to Hermosillo, which is a much bigger city. I think the capital of the province. I'm 100% positive on that. The kind of place...

You can't easily bribe your way out of. The week before, apparently, his gunman had ambushed the army for some reason. I think it was a mistaken thing and killed two soldiers. There was, I think, rumors maybe the army was working with Caro Quintero. Something along those lines, but that's a big no-no, man. You can't really do that and expect to survive and get away with it. And, um...

Yeah, that's it. No chance. Story over. Couldn't even get a refund on the tickets. That's how it goes. And then I'm back to doing podcasts with Sean. That's just my life. I guess it's not just my life. But anyway. Again, I'm feeling great. I guess we were lucky we weren't with them when they got raided. It was how people tried to portray it to me. Because that could have gone real bad. Maybe we get blamed by some people. Maybe something else happens. So yeah, I guess...

Maybe lucky in a way, but that one just stung. And I think I thought about it every day for months afterwards. Like what could have been? You know, just like playing it out on my head, how it would have gone and what we would have gotten with it and the reaction that we would have gotten.

So, yeah, man. Anyway, Durango, I think, is still locked up. Quintero was actually arrested a year or so later in July of 2022. I think 30 people were killed in the week afterward as Los Trapitos made their move against him and his people. And then just in February, one of his nephews, Quintero's nephew, was helping to run things. He gets arrested too. So the Caborca Hotel has been, you know, they've taken some big hits, just like us here at the Underworld Podcast.

But wait, are you still in touch with John? Is he in touch with Durango's guys? And most importantly, does he know where to get a decent Michelada in Crown Heights? Yeah, he's not Mexican. He's working on something else right now. I don't know if he's still in touch because Durango's locked up. But yeah, I actually messaged him before. He's a good dude and I feel bad for not delivering on that. But I messaged him before the episode to be like, dude, is it cool if I tell this story? And he was like, yeah, just don't use my name. So...

Yeah. Hope you guys like this little peek behind the curtains. I know it's very different from our last episode, but we are no slaves to format. We're just going to throw it out there. And as always, patreon.com slash The Underworld Podcast for donations and whatnot, or you can do it and get the bonus episodes. Maybe I'll put the video up. Maybe I won't. And you can also go on iTunes and...

and subscribe with one click. But thanks again, as always, for tuning in. The Underworld Podcast at gmail.com. What is it? Yeah, do the rating and the five stars and all that other nonsense. All of that stuff. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.