Couples Under Lockdown: Lagos, Nigeria
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And I feel like at the end of the day, I'm just kind of like, "Holy shit." You know, it's just nuts. None of the couples you are about to hear are ongoing clients of Esther Perel. For the purposes of maintaining their confidentiality, names and some identifiable characteristics have been removed. But their voices and their stories are real.

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On September 28th, the Global Citizen Festival will gather thousands of people who took action to end extreme poverty. Join Post Malone, Doja Cat, Lisa, Jelly Roll, and Raul Alejandro as they take the stage with world leaders and activists to defeat poverty, defend the planet, and demand equity. Download the Global Citizen app today and earn your spot at the festival. Learn more at globalcitizen.org.

They moved from the West Coast to Lagos, Nigeria. He had received a dream job where he could not just do well, but also do good. I was approached by a vice president at the company I work for with the proposition that they wanted to start a team here in Africa.

She left her career as a nurse and their two daughters, 12 and 5, came with them to what was to be a spectacular family adventure. Basically, the trying part has been this move. This move has really challenged a lot of things. And then COVID has made it, I would say, like 20 times worse.

And everything may be even more disrupted with the upheavals and the violence and the poverty that may ensue. There is no chance the government is going to maintain law and order if they try and extend the lockdown. They showed videos of where the government is trying to distribute food to people in need. A truck rolls up with bags of rice and hundreds of people mob the truck. No one cares about social distancing. They're literally fist fighting over bags of rice. They are in a bind.

whether to stay or to go, looking for a sign but not knowing what that sign will be. We literally packed everything from our house in Seattle into a container and had it shipped here. And the evacuation plan would probably not cover more than a couple of suitcases. I mean, maybe it would be okay, but maybe we would leave and then someone would just walk in and take everything in the house and there'd be no point in coming back to try and get stuff at that point.

And in the midst of this, they're threatened with losing their connection. I feel like we don't have the opportunity to simply live. Like it's always you in the office or me trying to remind you that life exists outside the office. Please come outside to have dinner. And that is a problem when they need to reach each other in order to know where they go from here.

When we first came, I was so ready for a challenge, ready to throw our old lives away and do this big new thing. But there's so many challenges that feel like threatening to our safety here before COVID. And now with COVID, everything is up in the air. And it's not that I resent the decision to come. I was a part of that decision and I felt included in that decision, but

Now we're in this new situation, it's definitely more trying in the sense of having that reverence for what we intended to do. It seems to pale sort of in the big picture. It was something that I think we both knew was going to be challenging and then it turned out to be even more challenging than what we were expecting it to be by possibly an order of magnitude.

Describe it for me, please. How did you both see the move when you were making this decision together? I think we imagined the logistics of moving from one country to another with all of our belongings and everything to be a little bit smoother than it ended up being. There was a period of time where we had to be separated for, I think it was a little over a month.

And we weren't anticipating to have to be separate for that period of time. And that period of time coincided with a lot of things needing to happen. That was a pretty big burden, her being home with the kids while I was off in Nigeria already and having to deal with moving things across the world. And then arriving, and our shift didn't arrive for two months. And so...

Being able to get the things we needed was a little difficult. Figuring out all the schools and getting kids into schools, that was quite a bit of work. And all of this in a country that neither of us had spent any amount of time in. One of the things I would say about what changed is that I think the benefits that we believed would be here compared to the risks, I think changed a lot once we came.

I didn't imagine all the ways that I would feel like we were giving up so many things. I also felt that the benefit to like what you're doing here and like what your dream is to do here. I'm also recognized like that there's a more benefit to that too, as well. There's a bigger need than I could have imagined for what you came here to do. So before COVID, I felt like we were still kind of assessing the,

What are the things that we really lost in this move and what are the things that we gained? And how important is it to us to evaluate the needs of our family and fulfill those compared to the mission that we came to accomplish? One of the biggest things that I am very conscious of you having to give up is freedom of mobility.

It's also interesting that COVID has taken that restriction and intensified it tremendously. There was the original limit on mobility, and now it's

substantially increased with police blockades and things out there. Violence. Violence, kidnapping, some things like that, that are all a result of the lockdowns that COVID have introduced. It's like there was an expected pain, I think, or a thing that we were knowing we were having to deal with coming here. We got here and realized, actually, that's even worse. And then COVID showed up and made it even worse.

And I also acknowledge that I probably am a little bit more of a hermit-style introvert than you, so I'm a little less cabin fever going on. And I am also still working, which also affects things differently. And she stands out more. Yes. Is that a part of it too? Yes, yes, that is a big part.

Just in general, the risk of her hopping in the car, even going driving, is far higher than for me. And I'm the risk taker, so that means I'm the shopper. And while we were told vehemently that we may not drive ourselves in this country, we wanted our driver to be safe. So we sent him home to quarantine and continued to pay him. And so up until today, it had been me going out.

And I felt okay doing that. And then now it's changed. I don't feel okay doing that. There was a kidnapping two weeks ago relatively close by that has us a little bit more on edge about going around. And just the vibe of people, you know, like here people are so close to like abject poverty already. So with the restrictions in place by the government, it's forced a lot of people to

into abject poverty, you know, and you feel that energy when you go out. And I think there's another part of this too, which is just that there's a lot of, personally, there's a lot of ethical considerations about race and what kind of access we have to being safe and what the implications are. I mean, I know you share that because we both have American citizenship and we could have gotten evacuated, the embassy evacuated people. And we chose not to do that. But there's still so many issues

around that, like that we have the ability to leave and others don't. And being American is feeling more complicated right now. Yeah. So there's just so many things that have come up. Say more. We were faced with the embassy emailing us for weeks to tell us that we had the option to evacuate. The airports are closed here, so it's a little bit different than the U.S. We don't have the option of just saying, okay, we're done and we want to go.

So they organized some flights. And during that time, for me, it was like an emotional crisis every night. You know, I wasn't sleeping. I'm trying to be there for the kids during the day and just make them feel as safe as they can. And at the same time, knowing that safety is actually in question. And at the same time, he was dealing with the fact that

He was supporting his team, making the transition from going from the office to their homes, to work in their homes. And I felt like it was so hard for me because I was like spinning my wheels. I'm like, I want a plan and a backup plan and a backup plan to the backup plan. And he wasn't feeling the same way as me. You know, he just didn't feel that same sense of crisis from that decision.

There was times where I feel like the ethical considerations that I have about that I was already dealing with internally, like thinking about whether whether it's fair or right. I don't know what the right word is there, but just that we even have this option. It's so bizarre. You know, you don't think you don't really think about what it means to be American, especially when you're willing to move across the world. But then you come and you see like.

what the reality of this COVID will do to this country. And that we have this magical button that we can push. So that was difficult. And I felt like there was times where you would kind of insinuate that we should be so lucky to even have these options and that I should just sort of be satisfied with that. But that passed and we decided to stay. And then I think this past week has been really hard again because a friend of mine

who's actually from Gabon, but her husband works for the British Embassy, she was evacuated by mandate. And I think that really shook me, like, if that is the right thing to do for safety, you know, or... I don't know, it just really... It's like, I feel like there was a resolve after we decided to stay, at least we just lifted off. But I wish that we had communicated more during that time. When there is a pandemic,

When disaster approaches, every couple has to negotiate their strategy. How bad is it? Is it as bad as it's going to get? Will it get worse? And often they position themselves with different answers to these angst-ridden questions.

When she wanted to go, she didn't dare to ask it from him because she was concerned that he came with such a mission and such a sense of responsibility for his team. How could she do this to him? And then on the other end, she wondered what right does she have to actually leave? And what does that mean ethically that she has this option and privilege to begin with? And then there's the fact that when you're an expat, the embassy mandates your evacuation and you don't have to deal with your own decision making.

And all of this is mounting. And every time they finally settle on their decision and more people leave, they are wondering once again, have we made the right choice? Are we putting ourselves into unnecessary stress or safety? I mean, really? And then again, I feel like we got into an argument and it was like, we have this opportunity that other people don't have, which I recognize and I appreciate.

I'm almost ashamed of it, you know, like I know that. But at the same time, who would we be hoping? And I would feel the same. I would be feeling everything that Nigeria is going through, even if we were in the U.S., you know, it's just been really intense. It's been really intense. And it's asked a lot of our relationship. And you have a lot of obligations to your work. Yeah. And you spend a lot of time in your office. I do. Yeah.

What did you feel when she was talking just now? I was experiencing my stomach clenching. When she was talking about her angst and the things that... What did I hear? I heard you say, here are a few things that I heard. You tell me if that makes sense to you. We are both Americans.

I am white, he is black, I'm a woman, he's a man. He is African. He came here with a mission. I support this mission completely. I too want him to succeed in doing something that has such larger impact and meaning.

But in this moment, I also think about my children and my safety, and I'm scared. And my one good close friend, she just was repatriated. And am I just holding on to a mission? But they won't be a missionary. They won't be a person holding it because the idea is bigger than the person. And then when I go to him and I try to tell him that, he answers me with statistics and

I don't even know if he feels any of it. And maybe he doesn't because there's a part of him that keeps saying, I have it better than everybody else.

and therefore my mission stands, and I'm not going anywhere. And I don't know, she says, if I have a right to even ask him to go anywhere because I'm supposed to be the support for him and this partner who joined him in this major endeavor where the word challenge used to be attractive and exciting, and now it's become frightening. I know this is crazy, but the other day I heard you say

on a phone call with like a coworker and you were like, how are you? And what's going on there? And I was like, I mean, we don't really have jealousy issues, I feel, but I was like, I mean, I had to dig deep to find what I was feeling, but I was jealous of this very simple moment where you were just saying, how are you? You know, where I feel like I have to barge in

to your office, you know, and tell you, declare, you know, something to you on your time in between calls. And then maybe we end up in an argument and maybe we don't have time to deal with it for three days because you're in your office till 4 a.m. Maybe jealousy isn't the right feeling. What I'm hearing her describe is that she's the partner of someone who came to improve the fate of the people in Africa.

And so when she's asking him for personal attention, it feels like, how can you ask for an individual attention in light of the collective endeavor that you are embarked upon? But then she hears him be so inquisitive about somebody else. And then she realizes that it becomes one individual yes and the other individual no.

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On September 28th, the Global Citizen Festival will gather thousands of people who took action to end extreme poverty. Watch Post Malone, Doja Cat, Lisa, Jelly Roll, and Raul Alejandro as they take the stage with world leaders and activists to defeat poverty, defend the planet, and demand equity. Download the Global Citizen app to watch live. Learn more at globalcitizen.org slash Vox. I don't deal with it well either in...

complete fairness. If I don't feel like I'm being heard, I'm probably not a very pleasant person to be around. I'm not like a suffer in silence kind of person, you know? So I feel like the lesser evolved parts of my character just sort of start running the show and then it justifies you staying away from me probably, you know? It's a cycle that we have to learn to get around.

You still value and admire his rectitude, his mission, his desire to do something that's bigger than him. But you also feel less supported by him than you currently need and somewhat abandoned by him.

while he's being attentive and able to accept the vulnerabilities of others, but he can't see yours because he needs you to be strong so that he can be on his mission. It's a very accurate. Do you feel that that's accurate or does that resonate with you at all? Do you believe it resonates with me? Maybe that's the right question. And so I will,

acknowledge that as something that I need to internalize a little bit more. I think hopefully rather than thinking about it as me focusing on my mission more than you, there are other things that can be thought of or factored in there like I have a calendar scheduled time to check in with people and

So when I get on a phone call and it's the calendar schedule time to check with people, I'm not in any way suggesting we should do that with us. But that is something that causes me to then consciously check in with folks. It's not that I'm thinking of them more than I think about you. But I do need to do a better job of checking in with you. Mm-hmm.

Yes, under normal times, if he was busy or not available, you'd hop in your car and go visit a friend. And maybe commiserate with a friend about how unavailable he is. But in any case, you wouldn't be waiting alone, leaving like Penelope and hoping that at some point he would come back from the sea.

so these are not normal circumstances a because you're in lagos and b because on top of it the situation is dangerous and you are ransom material basically yeah

So he doesn't want you to go out either. But that means that then he suddenly has to become the girlfriend that you're going to go visit to commit to it. And that means that he needs to take on multiple roles. It does. It demands an adaptation. And I think if you say, I need phone calls scheduled with my colleagues or the members of my team, how do I create a structure

that helps me to think about you. And that's perfectly fine. You know, one would wish maybe that this would come to you more spontaneously, but if it doesn't, then you schedule it. Because you see what you describe is you probably were very emotionally connected in your family, but it didn't come with emotional check-ins on the internal life of the other person. That's the more Western definition.

Yeah, I think that it is more difficult for me to say that I want to be vulnerable because it feels like I don't have a right to be, given my quite fortunate life situation. I think that's probably a little bit exacerbated by the fact that I typically feel a sense of imposter syndrome with regards to my...

success and what I've been able to achieve with my life always like I don't actually belong in this room that that gives me both a combined sense of I shouldn't have anything to complain about but also I have a lot to do in order to prove that I deserve that which I have I think the combination of those is a little complex thank you for this vulnerability

You just did it. I'm sure you felt it since Stanford or maybe before, but it came to my awareness in the form of words in a very tragic, climactic way right before we left. And I feel like it was hurled at me rather than approached with that I would understand or that I maybe perhaps already understood. Okay.

Like specifically the feeling, the feelings of not like I don't belong, like I'm an imposter is something that I felt probably since college. It's probably when it first, first hit me. I went through high school being the best at everything and got to college and it was no longer the case.

Not the best at everything, but the things I liked being good at, it was easy to be the best at. And then I got to college, that was no longer the case. When I started working professionally, that was also no longer the case. There were a lot of ridiculously smart people around me and I always felt like I didn't belong. Is that a voice that you have sometimes that says it was good? Or does most things end up with it could have been better?

It wasn't good enough. If only I had done X, Y, Z. Typically, I spend time thinking about what went well and what could have gone better. Right, right. Do you do the same with your marriage? Not often enough. Right. The best of you goes to work and the leftovers come home? I think it depends on the day. Tell me.

Well, particularly with COVID, but also in general, like some days I wake up and feel like I'm spending more time in family mode. I don't know, I wouldn't say marriage mode, family mode, and then going into work. And depending on how much time I spend in family mode, there's sometimes leftovers going to work. But this is so interesting. You see, it's like

you're absolutely accurate about this this fault line like that it's like you're saying to him let me take you out of the office where your imposter voice sometimes keeps you till four o'clock in the morning so that you can experience other parts of you and connect with all of us and let us love you and

He kind of hears it. Instead of freaking arguing when she says, come to the dining room or come to the bedroom or come sit with me, you have to go. I didn't tell her that.

I didn't feed you these lines. I'm just letting him know. It's like you provide this mantle of security for each other not to go to an extreme. Her extreme of nothing will stop me and your extreme of it's never good enough until it's good enough, but that means it's never good enough. I wish that we spent more time together and that that time was...

more organic, that it wasn't time that I sought after explicitly. I feel that I have a duty to explicitly lay out my needs for you. Otherwise, it's justified to not meet them or and that's outside of my own nature. And I tell you that a lot that I don't feel comfortable, but I do really like to have things sort of flow.

And I ask that of myself to give you the opportunity to meet my needs by making them bite-sized and doable to what I think is doable, you know? But I also feel in a way it makes it myself, like I'm minimizing the expectations of you as a partner. And I see you devote yourself to work and I know what you're capable of and I know that you love me, you know? Mm-hmm.

And I guess I just wish that we had time. And I think that's the real thing is that it's not anything grand that we need to do together because we talk. And I think that's what we do together, right? We have a very lovely bathroom that we spend a lot of time inside of. And that's usually where we connect. We just sit on the ledge of our window and... That's your office. That's my office. And we connect there, you know, for whatever reason. But I wish that...

It didn't have to be explicit. And I wish that's where you want to connect. No, I mean, in general, I wish in our day, right? That's where I feel like it's okay to ask in between meetings that we just meet and have a 10 minute talk. But like, I also feel like we've had debates about like, there've been multiple times that I asked why we can't do that same thing in my office. It's just kind of where I am. It feels like the idea that you would come and spend time in my office is something that bothers you.

Yeah, I think it does. I don't quite understand that. Because you're toggling between me and work and play. I'm going to suggest for you to not be principled about. He comes into the bathroom, you go into his play space. The fact that he's inviting you into his play space is very intimate for him.

If on top of it, he can serve you your tea, coffee, something else drinker? My coffee. Right. So he can turn his little shop into his little office into a coffee shop. Because if you can't go outside, you're going to have to use imagination, which is exactly what your kids are doing, especially your little one. Any child can in a split second become the captain of a ship and the owner of a shop.

and the doctor running a hospital, and anything you want, because they know that freedom in confinement comes through their imagination.

So you can go in his office, but it no longer is his office. It's actually his pietater or headquarter or whatever. You start to rename things. You give them a new meaning. You play with the definitions. You ritualize them. You take them outside of the ordinary. You dress up to go to his office.

You know, so that it becomes playful, so that it gives you the sensation that you went out. Of course you didn't go out, but who cares? And you can think of it as corny and weird, or you can think of it as it elevates us.

from this sense of, I am so constrained here. There's nowhere I can go. There's not many people around me. I'm more and more isolated. And then all I experience is my husband in his office. Instead of, I'm going for a special visit to my husband, he invited me to his office. Now you've turned the whole thing upside down. You've got to go subversive on this. I like the idea that

So I feel like the amount of time that we're speaking of is a very small time. It's 10 minutes, you know, it's 10 minutes here and it's 10 minutes there. And I think just to finish, like what I was saying is that it's that I feel like we don't have the opportunity to simply live. Like it's always, it's,

you in the office or me trying to remind you that life exists outside the office please come outside to have dinner okay the kids are going to bed and they haven't seen you all day if you don't come out now you're not going to see them today and then as soon as the kids go to bed immediately it's back into the office and I'm laying in my room doing my things until 4 a.m and I go to sleep I'm not trying to make it sound one-sided like I know that there's so much complexity

But I guess I just don't think that for me, like we don't have space together. We don't have time together to like do things, just exist, like live, like have life, like have, I don't know, like a drink and a coffee and everything sounds great, but it's like, it doesn't sound feasible. I feel the statement you're making that I'm not making time is like a little confusing. We go on bike rides as a family together. How do those occur?

When you suggest that we go on a bike ride together today and I can fit it in my schedule, I do. When you say, hey, do you want to join us for swimming? I try and make it work. You're right. I don't suggest them myself. I have a thought for you because I hear the conversation. And when we began today, I asked you, tell me a little bit about the history of this relationship. And you started with the seed at the bar.

And you told me she was reading a book and I decided I'm going to get this woman's attention. And this woman just told you that it's very hard for her. That doesn't justify it. That doesn't say it's right or wrong. It's just the way she experiences it. And I don't know enough about her whole history to know why it is troubling to her to have to ask for attention. She likes to receive it. She likes to resist it. And she likes when you work through her resistance.

It's exactly how you seduced her on day one. This is what we are talking about. Of course, when she suggests, let's go for a bike, you go for a bike and you enjoy the bike ride. And this is not an issue. But what she's coming back with is, it happened because I suggested, I asked. And I enjoy when you'd say yes. But there's something about wanting to be slightly showered, slightly adored, slightly seduced.

slightly you put your will of fire on me the way that when you want something you go for it and what she's telling you is she misses that guy and she also misses that woman a lot of the time I talk about how I think the word that usually gets misused here is I don't feel saying I don't feel supported that's not actually a way to describe what what I'm talking about but

I think a better way to articulate it is to point out that you talk about me working a lot. I haven't worked on the weekend in the past three weekends, and I don't think you've noticed. Oh, I've very much noticed. I appreciated it. I have not worked on those weekends, and that comes at a huge cost. And I don't feel like that is – it's not that I don't think you notice it. It's that if I were to take an entire weekend off and not work –

and then Monday were to roll around and by noon Monday I had not gone back to work and then by noon Tuesday I had still not done any work. I don't feel like at any point you would ask me the question of "hey shouldn't you be working or weren't you behind on something and you took some time off should you get back to that thing you were doing growing up?" Wait, what do you think my response would be to that?

It's my responsibility to know about when I have to work and then to go to work. No, to communicate to me what you need. Yes. I have to go outside of myself and ask for things I need. And then we skip to the next part where I say, assuming I have communicated what I need. But you can assume. You can skip to the next part. No, it's not from experience. No, you can't. I've asked you so many times. If I have communicated, so let me repeat the statement I'm making.

Even if I have communicated to you that I have a busy work schedule or that I haven't. So like when I say things like work is not going well, and then I tell you about a document I'm supposed to write for work that people are getting frustrated that I'm not writing. And then I tell you the story of how I failed so miserably at getting that document written that someone else had to do it for me because I just never got it done. Like that's a pretty serious thing.

And not only did I not feel like from you I got the partner who would help me be able to get that done, I didn't feel like you cared at all about that failure. Like there was no commiseration there.

of any kind and it like in general it feels like and maybe it's the way it comes across of me I'm not trying to accuse or blame or say that it's because I'm not working that that's not happening that's just something that happened that really sucks and I would like to feel like there's a partnership in the sense that that's something that has to happen it's not something where I

Yes, I have a lot of work and I should try and make time for the family, but if I'm not making my deadlines, I feel like we should be together on trying to figure out how we work around that as opposed to tell me what you need. What would you have liked to hear her say? What's one thing she could have said? I'm sorry, that sucks. Just that. You did it. Do you want to try? Me? It's getting very hard for me to be honest. But I think I hear you.

It's not hard. No, it's not. I know. It's not that it needs a justification. I need to actually just do it. And I will. Just give me one second to really get there. I am very sorry that Spain was a mess and that things were going poorly for you professionally. And believe it or not, I do really care. Like I care so very much when you're feeling stressed or when you're feeling anything about any negative things really in the world, usually about work.

And at the same time, I want good things for you and I want you to feel good. It's hard for me not to shirk the negativity that you present me with. I don't always know when to try to make you feel better or try to just say, I'm really sorry that it sucks. Do you people use hugs? Do you like to give them to? I like hugs.

So much. You see, I know this is weird. I'm on screen, you're on screen, et cetera. But this is a moment where I imagine a hug. What you just did now was interrupt a destructive pattern. It started by you asking for something. Just tell me, I know it sucks and not have a whole discussion with me about work or the project or this or that. Just talk about me.

And then it started with you, instead of arguing with it, which would have been your inclination, to just say it, even though it feels a little artificial. But you tried to emphasize. And as you said it, the experience followed. And then it comes with a moment of repair that gets punctuated with the hug. Because after that, there's not much left to say. We sit in silence.

We feel calmer. We feel closer. And we stop the useless chatter. I think what happens between the two of you is that that moment does not occur enough. You know, in a relationship, you connect, you disconnect, and then you reconnect. But you don't have to reconnect. So the conversation goes over and over and it's repeat. And it's each of you wants the other person to just be able to say, I get it.

It sucks. It's hard. It's sad. It's lonely. You don't have to solve anything. You just acknowledge the experience of the other. You're strong people. You will each figure it out. Come here. Let me give you a hug. And I think that would heal so many things. Sometimes I think we're arguing the point that we're both fearful that our needs are not going to be met as individuals. We have children. And it can feel like at the end of the day, like...

we divide and conquer, you know, and then it can just feel like we're abandoning each other. But in the reality, we're both here fighting so hard for the same thing. And I feel like sometimes we just miss that opportunity to appreciate that. He's nodding behind you. Do you see? Yeah. And you cannot have one more conversation about the four o'clock or the work or the amount of hours or the this or that.

And you need to start noticing when he actually doesn't work, you have to tell him, I really enjoyed spending the day with you. You don't have to say anything about, I appreciate you not work. Just, you have to begin to redress the negative spin that is entering your mutual perceptions. Because then his is going to be, no matter what I do, it's not enough, which already he lives with as is. It's not a difficult train to hop on.

And you're going to live with the feeling of rejection. I once was important. I am no more. And that, I think, is a story that has more resonance in your life than just with him. So we need to become very talented, very adept. That's the word I'm looking for. At closing the loop and having those rituals of repair. And that doesn't mean we need to talk about what just happened. Yeah.

Absolutely. Cut it short. What do you need? And you, what do you need? Come here. I can do that. I can definitely do that. Can you tell me what is the story behind the rejection? I don't know. I suppose in other ways, not with him and not with men really. You know, I've spent a lot of my life trying to...

Not evade, but just really genuinely look at what that means to feel that way. Because my mom left when I was eight and it was disruptive. And, you know, I didn't have a dad and everybody I loved was dismantled. And it's not lost on me, you know, and it's something I've worked very hard to heal. Where did she go? She just was the, you know, she was a single mom of seven kids and she had to...

breathe away from us. She moved to Arizona. And your sisters took care of you or you all were dispatched in different homes? No, most of them were old enough. My brother went to live with my dad who surfaced for that period of time and he and I, my brother and I were very close so I didn't see him for a long time and I moved from just like siblings to family friends to Alaska then when I was 16. So, yeah.

Yeah, I was quite left to my own devices, somewhat neglected and feeling deeply abandoned. She makes such a point of not wanting to be the pursuer, not being the beggar of his affections. And that story definitely precedes COVID-19, precedes Nigeria, and I'm pretty sure precedes ever meeting him. And that's why I need to go and explore what is the roots of her story.

feeling so rejected by him and why when he was the pursuer that became the glue that brought them together. And sometimes you want to tell him I'm having a mom moment. I don't want to feel like that, but that's how it takes over. There's things that I work, you know, there's things that I have to work very hard on. Can I ask you another question? Sure.

Yes. When you moved to Nigeria, did it evoke some of the many moves that you've had in your life where every time you would move, you would think it would be better? I think it felt more genuine because it didn't feel like that. I think this felt like something that reflected my personal idea of where I would be at 34 and with the person I wanted to be doing that with. And I think it was more genuine.

than perhaps all the other moves that felt more routine and natural because of the chaos. But it's definitely been something that I've had to be very cognizant of. It does bring up a lot of just moving. And I know that with COVID and the need for things to feel threatening of my personal space, it brings a lot of that up. And I don't exactly know how to communicate that to him. You're doing it right now. So look at him and keep talking.

I don't think he knows that. I don't think you've connected the dots yourself. When things feel threatening, it makes this sort of chaos that feels outside of myself. And it's difficult for me to feel grounded. And the only thing I know what to do is just to plan. So right now, my plan feels like it's involving 200 million people in Nigeria.

And I do feel like when I go to the store, you know, I make a plan for every person I might run into and what I can do to involve them or help them or educate or engage with them or feel their, what they're feeling. And it's just so much like when I come home, just from like going to the store, like I just feel like I felt so many things. And when, when our home feels like it's

Like right now, like we don't know if we moved, where would we go? It's such a huge unknown. It triggers things for me that are like founded in something that I feel like isn't yours to deal with because of a circumstance and it's not something I would expect you to understand. But I have this need to organize my thoughts in a way that make it feel safer. And I think just saying this sucks is also applicable, you know?

It doesn't have to be a plan. And sometimes I kind of need someone else to remind me of that. I feel bad saying that to you. I don't know. I just don't feel like it's yours, you know? I feel like it's mine. It so makes sense. It makes sense that when you've moved so often and you didn't know what was going to happen at the next station, in the next home, that A, you became a planner, and B,

you became sometimes somebody who dares. What he considers isn't careful enough because it was a way of taming your fears. And it makes sense that he can say it sucks or he can say exactly what he said. This is ours. I'm here with you. This time, you don't have to do it alone. In many ways, you've often been in a foreign place. You may not have lived in Africa, but you have been in many foreign places. And you have often been the outsider. Yeah.

And you have often been the one who doesn't belong. You know, sometimes I spend too much time trying to explain a logical solution to a problem. I myself need to also say, that sucks. And in particular, when it comes to some of these things, I need to be a little bit more aware of how they impact you. Because I absolutely want to be there for you. I want you to feel like I actually understand you.

I can't truly understand what you're going through because I didn't have the same experience, but I feel like I should at least be able to understand that this has that type of impact on you and be there and be more supportive than I have been, especially in light of how COVID has affected me. Tell him what you need from him, not what he needs to do.

Or just tell him how you feel and he'll know what to do. He just did it beautifully every time today. I guess I need you to recognize when I'm sort of spiraling. Like I think you see when I'm balanced and when I'm not more balanced. You know, when I'm less balanced, you know what that looks like. And maybe when you see that, sometimes I feel like it provides justification for you to stay away from me. And that's not...

healthy place for me to exist with someone. But if maybe we can learn to recognize what those symptoms are really getting at and just call me on it like you do with other things, you know, like it is going into a burning building. Like don't, don't go in there, you know, like you're spiraling, but what is it that's going on?

Does he have to talk or does he have to hold you? I think holding me would be my preferred method of communication at that time. Yeah. Yeah. I don't think you should talk in those moments, just as he did now. And it will also help you not reason with her because your verbal language veers on the rational logical, but your physical language is very tender. So that's another language you have. It is. Yeah.

Throughout the session, I asked myself to stay or to go. And it is clearly not my place as the therapist. It's certainly someone who just met them for one session to tell them my opinion. But every time I experienced their resolution, I felt that the fear was being transferred onto me. And that's the fear that would say, leave, leave even for some time so that you can actually come back. You're not safe.

But who am I to say? Esther Perel is the author of Mating in Captivity and The State of Affairs. She's also the host of the podcast How's Work? Where Should We Begin? will be back with a brand new season on Spotify beginning June 18th. Where Should We Begin with Esther Perel is produced by Magnificent Noise for Gimlet and Esther Perel Productions.