12/3/24: Krystal Vs Cenk Uygur On Trump Populism
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at DiamondsDirect.com. Diamonds Direct, your love, our passion. Hey guys, Sagar and Crystal here. Independent media just played a truly massive role in this election, and we are so excited about what that means for the future of this show. This is the only place where you can find honest perspectives from the left and the right that simply does not exist anywhere else. So if that is something that's important to you, please go to BreakingPoints.com, become a member today, and you'll get access to our

full shows, unedited, ad-free, and all put together for you every morning in your inbox. - We need your help to build the future of independent news media, and we hope to see you at breakingpoints.com. - So Cenk, you and I just started sort of talking about the,

the they-them ad that Trump ran and a bunch of other stuff, and the conversation just sort of unfolded. So you're going to pick up here kind of midstream with Cenk and I already engaged in a conversation about the future of the Democratic Party. So I hope you enjoy. I don't want progressivism to be known as Bane from, you know, Batman series. Yeah. Where we just...

we're known as the guys who let all the criminals go. Right. I'm like, where's the justice in that? So my view, which is probably similar to yours, is like,

Right now, all the litmus tests, and this largely comes out of actually the Hillary Clinton and the neoliberal approach to politics. All the litmus tests are around social issues in the Democratic Party. You can be pretty right-wing on economic policy. It's not really a problem. You can be very pro-corporate. I think it should be the exact reverse. I think the litmus test should be around economic issues. Goddamn right. And then personally, I'm pretty left on almost every issue, but I have no problem with having people in the tent who are pro-life.

Who are pro-gun who have different views on the border crime than I do? Mm-hmm, but the litmus test has to be like fuck the billionaires That's basically my view of the party So where I get frustrated in the conversation is when like the South melt Moulton's of the world are instantly like well It's trans people, you know, it's like well, you know if your only assessment from this is to like throw trans people under the bus and

And you don't have that's very convenient for the donor class. That's very convenient for the powers that be in the Democratic Party. That doesn't require anything of them. So I'm not saying those issues aren't like, you know, challenging for the Democratic Party to deal with. But if your only instinct is like to blame the left yet again, when the left had nothing to do with this campaign, like I'm very suspicious of that. So I actually 100 percent agree with you. Thank you so much, Meg. Thank you.

Thank you. But I don't want us to live in non-reality. And non-reality is saying that ad didn't hurt us. When both sides said definitively, according to our internal numbers, it was fucking devastating. Right? So, like...

That's not the number one reason as I said, right? I think the thing for me is you have to ask the deeper question of like, okay why did that ad hurt because Why did that add heart because Bernie has the same position on transgender issues? Mm-hmm, but that ad would not work against Bernie. Mm-hmm. Okay, and I

The reason is because he actually, like people are not going to be confused that Bernie Sanders' top priority is fighting against rich people. Fighting for you. They're not going to be confused about that. So you're right. If you're running a Kamala Harris, that ad's going to be a fucking problem for her because she doesn't really stand for anything. And so people can be very easily convinced that like, oh, she cares about a bunch of bullshit that I don't support and I don't care about.

But if you have a candidate who has a story that can compete with the Trump, the left populist story and narrative and credibility of actually fighting for those things,

then you can carry some cultural issues that, yeah, may not be that popular. So you could do the Hassan strategy if you, and I agreed with him and that's what I would have done, if you have actual policies like you're saying. That's right. Because then you could say, hey, this is a distraction from $15 minimum wage and universal health care, et cetera. But Kamala couldn't say it's a distraction from anything because she doesn't believe in anything. That's right. Right? So that's why I was saying the ad was a perfect,

combination of what was wrong with the corporate Democrats and the extreme left, because the corporate Democrats stripped her of any real substance to run on. Right. Yeah. So then all that was left was this was the extreme left positions that she took on into 2020. Right. Yeah. So that's my opinion. Yeah. No, I totally agree with that. I totally agree with it. I don't think you can say like the ad didn't matter at all.

But I think it's important to understand why she was vulnerable to that ad and a Bernie Sanders or an Andy Beshear. But I'll tell you, so I agree with all that. I will say that I think Bernie 2020 was more susceptible to it than Bernie 2016. Agreed.

Agreed. So we've been talking here to Cenk Uygur, obviously, of TYT and many other wonderful distinctions as well. But lucky to have you in studio today. And we started talking and recording. So we'll just include that front part in the conversation as well. Great to have you. All right. Great to be here. I'll give you the official welcome now. So you've been making a lot of waves.

I love to make many waves. You've been stirring the pot, sir. That's what I am. I'm a pot stirrer. Yes. And I was telling you, Kyle and I both enjoyed Jinxgiving. Thank you. We were listening to it on the way back from New York. One thing I wanted to talk to you about is I want to get into the stuff with you and Elon and Bernie's chimed in there and your sort of general approach.

to the Trump administration, which, tell me if I'm wrong, feels different than how you approach things in 2016. We can talk a little bit more about that. And kind of emblematic of that, if you guys could put Cenk's tweet up on the screen and we can use this as a jumping off point. So you said,

I've been trying to figure out why I'm more optimistic now than I was before the election, even though I was so against the guy who won. I know now MAGA is not my mortal enemy, and neither is the extreme left. My mortal enemy is the establishment, and they have been defeated. So there's a few pieces of this that I have some questions about. But I guess just off the top, you know, I think you and I both think that Trump is a fascist. In fact, I think we both argued with our co-hosts about this rather memorably.

What makes you optimistic now that we have the fascist headed back to the White House? Yeah, it's a couple of things. So number one, he was a why did I call him a fascist? I'm very clear on this. Because he did a fake elector plot to overthrow the Democratic elections in 2020. Right. And he said to terminate the Constitution afterwards. A lot of right wingers don't know that. Like when I read him that quote, they're like, no, no.

Really? And then they read it and they can't believe it. That's because he doesn't care about democracy, doesn't care about the Constitution, et cetera, right? So I have those same exact concerns. Those concerns have not left. But the one thing that happened in this election was that he won the popular vote.

And I noticed right-wingers switching from, oh, we're not a democracy, we're a republic, right? Yeah. To like, yeah, let's go democracy. Suddenly free and fair elections exist, right? Yeah. And suddenly they're in favor of democratic elections. So great, wonderful. Because my number one concern is that he's not going to leave office. I'm less concerned about that now, okay? So maybe I'm wrong about that. And if I'm naive about that, then I'll own up to it, et cetera. Let me just say though, so for me personally,

Yes, I continue to be somewhat concerned he won't leave office. But my issue with the fake electors plot and all of the things that he tried to pull during that time is that it was indicative of an attitude and authoritarian approach to government that doesn't just apply when he's trying to leave office. So, for example, he wanted to shoot protesters famously in the leg during the Black Lives Matter protests.

And he at that time had some, you know, institutions around him. And I think it was Mark Milley in particular was like, you can't do that. Yeah.

My fear this time is he doesn't have those people around him anymore. And each of the institutions that held him back last time, the Supreme Court, the Senate, the Department of Justice, the Pentagon, all of those, there's been a concerted effort to make sure that this time he is able to indulge his worst and most fascistic impulses.

So that's why I almost feel like I've traveled like the opposite journey as you were in 2016. I was more like, and maybe who knows what we're going to get out of this. This time, I'm actually more concerned, especially because you have that Supreme Court immunity decision, which really does kind of give him carte blanche. OK, so I'm going to get to the irony here. Right. OK, so why am I thinking the other way?

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So but first, let me double down on what you're saying. Kash Patel is a disaster. Pete Hegsworth is a disaster. I actually thought Matt Gaetz was a mixed bag because he is actually anti-war and anti-corruption. But of course, he has a terrible personal life. Yeah, right. So but him being a mess might have actually been a good thing because he probably wouldn't have been that effective.

But anyway. Right. So the labor secretary is great given the Trump administration possibilities. Given the limitations. Right. And then you've got the team Israel, Marco Rubio, Stefanik. So I'm not in, other than the labor secretary, I'm not interested in any of this. Right. So, and you're right, the Supreme Court has allowed him to be above the law. But on top of that, he has no accountability left. What are they going to do? Impeach him? What are they going to do? Arrest him? Right.

Right? No accountability. The brakes are off. And I agree with you, the establishment was a brake in the car. Now that brake has been taken out. So what in the world am I thinking being slightly optimistic? Well, there's two parts to it. One is the establishment being defeated. We've got to come back to that because that's so important. Okay. But on Trump...

The new break in the car, and this is me out on a limb, okay, is right-wing populists. So, okay, I can see your grimacing. Listen, I mean, listen, I am, you know the show I do, right? And I love soccer. But I am also very skeptical about,

that that movement has significant sway or influence with Trump. Go ahead, make your case. Okay, so I think that's wrong. So number one, this is a different MAGA base than in 2016. The 2016 MAGA base was Trump is demigod. Whatever Trump says is by definition brought down to us from the heavens and will never be challenged.

So I had no interest in that base, right? And it was filled with old school Republicans, some establishment guys, but not that many. But still, they were hanging in there. Then they had the religious guys who were like, yeah, let's go kill everyone in the Middle East so Jesus can come back and stuff. Yeah, like Chukobi. Yeah, but those guys have lost a lot of power within that base.

So now within the right wing base. Pete Hegseth. Sorry, I'll let you finish. But Pete Hegseth, Mike Huckabee. No, I know. Mike Waltz. But Crystal, Huckabee is Team Miriam, right? So she's the one. He's Team End Times. Okay. Yeah, I know. I know. So Miriam Adelson got Marco Rubio, Stefanik, Huckabee, and Walzin. Those are all neocons, war hawks. Hegseth too.

Yeah, and Hegseth would kill all the Muslims. I mean, I'm not unclear about that. Yeah. And I know that in a lot of ways I'm in the crosshairs, right? But don't discount the bros, okay? So the bros have brought in a huge new part of his base.

And don't discount the moderates that are so sick of the Democratic Party that they flipped over the moderates' independence to Trump. And they're not looking to deport every human being in America that isn't, you know, evangelical Christian. They're not looking—the bros don't even agree on abortion with the Republican Party, right? So, like—

When you talk about Joe Rogan and Portnoy and all those guys, we have our disagreements with them, no question, right? But those guys are breaking the car. If, let's say, they do what one of Trump's potential picks was threatening to do, which is deport and denaturalize and arrest Mehdi Assad.

Right. That's a specific threat that one of the potential appointees had. Right. Who said that? I think Mike Davis. OK. So he was being considered for attorney general. And so, by the way, good news, he didn't pick him. But but, you know, Kash Patel says things like that. Hex says things like that. I think if they go to do that and this is where people can you got me on tape, you'll say, ha ha, Cenk was so naive. That's when I think the rogues of the world will come out and go, what are you what are you doing? Really? I thought we were for against cancel culture.

I thought we were for freedom. You don't agree with Mehdi Hassan's position on Israel, so we're going to denaturalize him, a thing that doesn't even exist?

No, I think they're going to say no. Okay. And here, here's the absolute litmus test. Okay. On Israel. So team Israel, team Miriam will drive him towards war today. Donald Trump is said that he's going in that direction. Yeah. He said that there's going to be hell to pay for the Palestinians and for the entire Middle East. If the hostages aren't returned, I don't know what more hell they could live in. Right. But that's Trump saying,

I will murder anyone on behalf of Israel, okay? And I will start any war on behalf of Israel. So am I right or am I wrong? We might find out instantly because for the moment being, they're saying the right wing populists, oh no, no, no, Trump would never do a war in the Middle East.

No way, no way, but he's a tough guy and he's gonna threaten them and he's gonna get the hostages back. But what I'm trying to explain to them is, and I had this conversation with Rudy Giuliani at the RNC. Brother, when you say, oh, he's threatening them, so that's good negotiation.

But what if somebody causes bluff? And in the case of the Palestinians, they don't have a choice because what Trump is saying is in order to get the hostages back, Israel wants to ethnically cleanse and take half of Gaza. No Palestinian will ever agree to that. Right. Right. So we're going to, Trump is threatening a giant war in the Middle East. If he does it, we're going to find out if I'm right or wrong. Because at that point, I think the right wing populists and the bros go, no brother, I didn't elect

you to be a worse neocon than Biden. Fair enough. And we'll see. But I'll tell you why I'm very skeptical, because we already knew Trump's record from his first term. Like he was not anti-war and he was extremely hawkish towards Iran. But his base is anti-war. He was very, you know, pro-Israel. And so this was already out there. Right. And you still have people like RFK Jr. and Tulsi Gabbard who were claiming he was anti-war, even though they had said, you know, both of them.

totally contradictory things previously, and also claiming that he's anti-censorship and pro-free speech. I mean, to me, that's just utterly preposterous. This is someone who wants to tighten the libel laws, who wants to criminalize flag burning. You know, the Republican Party has launched a wave of bills across the country to crack down protests, et cetera. And so even in spite of all of that, they still continue to hold him out as some beacon of free speech and beacon of anti-war dovishness.

And so when I see that and I see there's already been this, you know, ability to erase all of the things that he's done in the past and pretend he is something that he's not. It's hard for me to imagine that dynamic changing. But we can put a pin in that because we are going to see, you know, soon enough what the reaction is going to be, because I do want to get to this piece about the establishment, because the other part that I have a question about here is you say the establishment has been defeated. And I just say like.

Like even in the Democratic Party, I think they have been dealt a blow. I think you see that in MSNBC's cratering ratings. I think that creates an opportunity, a possibility.

But I don't think they've been defeated. I think it's very possible we end up with Pete and Gavin or Gavin, you know, next time around in the Democratic primary. These people are very resilient. I think you have a lot of, you know, affluent liberals who will think that they could be the answer to the problems, et cetera. They still have a lot of money power. But on the Republican side, too, you know.

For me, the ultimate final boss establishment is the billionaires who rig the rules for their own benefit. And the billionaires have basically never been more blatantly in control than right now. Elon Musk is a perfect example of this, but we can actually put this next element up on the screen, guys. Trump has the wealthiest cabinet in history. I think there are six billionaires so far that he's picked to be part of his administration. And so, you know, to me,

Again, this is like the ultimate establishment and they are fully in control of what's going to happen in the Trump administration. This is it.

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So I agree with you on all that. He's been hypocritical on every one of those issues, censorship. And he said about in his first term, I don't want poor people in my cabinet. That's right. He said, I like rich people. Yeah. Right. So he's been trying to get into that elite club his whole life. So the idea that he's against the elites is kind of funny. He is, but only because he's jealous. He's against cultural elites, Hollywood, academia. Yeah.

He's not against the rich. That's not even true. He'd love to be in Hollywood. Oh, that's true. And he started a big university. But was he perceived as against the establishment? Yes. So that's when I...

Is the establishment annihilated? No, of course not. Are they going to make a comeback? Of course. The empire is going to strike back in 2028. But the empire struck back so many times. It struck back in 2016, 2020, 2024. And so maybe 2028, to extend this needless analogy, is the return of the Jedi, right? And so I'm not under any illusion that the establishment is gone, right? But did...

Was Kamala Harris the more establishment candidate? Yes, of course she was. Sure. Right? And so did she lose? Yes. And as I explained in another tweet in that thread, it's not just that Kamala Harris lost. A lot of – Hillary Clinton lost, right? Right. Joe Biden nearly lost. So it's not that – it's that mainstream media, which is the main weapon of the establishment –

is now greatly reduced in its influence. Before, we could not get past him in a Democratic primary. Bernie almost had it in 16, but certainly in 2020 when he won the first three states, and mainstream media defeated him with their lies and propaganda, right? Oh, he's going to execute people in Central Park, he's a Nazi, et cetera. So the mainstream media guys are the worst liars in the world. They lie way worse than even right-wing media. I don't know about that.

Okay, we can have that discussion. I think you cannot find two bigger liars in America than Joe Scarborough and Whoopi Goldberg. I mean, but here you, I mean, I,

I hear you, but I also have been kind of black-filled on a lot of independent media because that tenant media situation where Tim Pool and whoever else were taking random sketchy money to put out whatever propaganda they were told to put out, I don't see what has grown up on the right in the independent media space as actually being better than the mainstream press. I totally disagree with you. I'll tell you why. While I feel like

What I agree with you on is there is a possibility that exists now that didn't before. And so I feel sort of – I guess what I relate to in your tweet is I would say I feel energized because there is a possibility that wasn't there that is there now. I think the most likely outcome is that things continue to get worse. Oh, wow.

That's why I don't feel optimistic, because what I see over the next four years is you're probably going to have a lot of cruelty towards immigrants. You're likely to have another inflationary spiral if he does half of the tariffs he's talking about. You could very easily have more chaos in the Middle East. We're already seeing it, more brutality in the Middle East. That's almost certainly going to happen. You could have some giant crypto bubble as possible, avian flu. There's all kinds of things that I think could be horrible and brutal.

over the next four years, and I can't look at that. I would love to feel optimistic that, you know, something, there's gonna be a light at the end of the rainbow. And like I said, I do feel energized, but optimistic is just not, you know, I would love to be there, but I'm not.

So let me agree and disagree in part. So first of all, I agree with your facts. So when we're talking about online media, are the Russians involved? Are there fracking billionaires that are financing shows? Billionaire X and billionaire Y and do some of those shows totally serve those interests? Yes. And they're reading the ads themselves.

So there's not even like, you know, the appearance of an arm's length distance from the advertisers and the money. - I get all that and I grant all that. Okay, so why then given those facts, am I more optimistic about online media than mainstream media? 'Cause mainstream media is a prison.

And it's a prison you can't in the past you could not break out of there's guardrails You are not allowed to say things outside those guardrails. You cannot talk about how the donors obviously control all the politicians Obviously, you cannot talk about how Israel obviously controls Washington and Washington's occupied territory It's so obvious, but if you say you're fired you're fired you're fired. I hate that prison I despise that prison of lies that is establishment media. I

Okay, so now in online media, yeah, you got the Russians, you got this, you got Wild and Wooly, crazy stuff. You got people I disagree with on the extreme left, on the extreme right. It's a mess in online media and I love it. Okay, that's the jungle, but Crystal, that's our jungle.

Okay, so we started this jungle at the Young Turks and breaking points in the Young Turks are in those same woods. Oh, in the woods, we have to fight off the right, the left, the middle, the Russians, the Israelis, the Saudis, et cetera.

Yeah, that's the woods, baby. Right. But we were born in those woods. I mean, I hear you, Cenk. I just, I've seen too much. I mean, you know what the incentives are. Like the incentives are to feed the algorithm, the incentives are to feed your audience, whatever they want to hear. The incentives are to be, you know, ever more in your own bubble. And a lot of the incentives are the same, like,

access-driven ones and corruption-driven ones as the mainstream press. There's a reason why you and I didn't get interviews with Kamala Harris, because she knows we would have asked her some tough questions. Of course. There's a reason. But who gives a damn about getting interviews with Kamala Harris? I'm just saying.

Oh, I am Kamala Harris. I'm not interested in interviewing a corporate robot anyway. But Cenk, my point is that a lot of people do care about that, which is why I mean so much of right wing media is just like, you know, basically sucking off Trump and whatever he says and towing the line because they want to maintain that access. They want to maintain, you know, their funding and their money and they want to feed their audience whatever they want to be fed. And so, again, there's a possibility here and I don't want to quash that. I think it's really important and it excites me.

But in the same respect, I'm clear-eyed about what a cesspool a lot of independent media, frankly, is at this point. And so there's, I guess, a caution that I have about it as well. But Crystal, nobody knows that better than me, right? We've been doing this for 22 years. I know. I know. That's what I'm saying. So we started when the internet was a nice place. That's how old we are. Okay?

So longest running show in internet history, first YouTube partner, you know all that. Yeah, yeah. So my point is that I have gone through all of those different things and I'm perfectly aware of that. I'm not at all naive about it. I know, yeah. But let me ask you a question back. Okay.

You and I both worked at MSNBC. So we worked in establishing media. We worked online media. What do you prefer? Oh, definitely online media. But I'll tell you, Cenk, we've made some very specific decisions here, which is we don't do that. We will never talk to an advertiser. You know, we don't do ad reads.

We, you know, have tried to intentionally create our business to avoid as much as possible. And we're still human beings. But as much as possible, some of the, you know, the pressures, the incentives, et cetera, that I think have led to, you know, most of the media ecosystem being not that great. And I think, you know, that's, you know, I know you guys have made some of those choices in your own ways, not exactly the same ones that we have.

But most people, the money is green and they want me to read this ad for the bald coddlers or whatever it is, and I'm going to do it. And I'm not going to look into that product. And if later down the road, there's some problem with the product, I'm not going to cover it because then I'm going to have a problem with my funders.

I think because we've made some specific decisions here, it has given us a lot of freedom. But I don't necessarily see those same incentives playing out across all of independent media, which has created, as much as I would love for us to be the model for everyone, that's not the reality of most of what exists out there. Yeah, but so, Crystal, I agree with you on all of that. Again, stipulate to all the facts, right? But at least we've got a fighter's chance at online.

media and what has our perseverance shown? TYT is a network, right? It's shown that when you buck all the tides and you don't take the obvious money, you don't serve those corporate interests and you get attacked by every side imaginable, right? Establishment, right wing, left wing, everyone has attacked us and yet we're still the largest. So now that's not to just to brag or anything. There's a real point in there which is yes, but the audience values the truth.

And so as difficult as it is day to day, oh, somebody lied about you, you lost a part of your audience. Or someone else lied about you, you lost a part of your audience. But you still keep going and going and going. And those guys, they all fall off. They all fall off. Daily Wire is way bigger than us. And they're, you know, they're propagandists.

Yeah, but Daily Wire has gotten an enormous amount of money from corporate interest. Yeah, I know. But Crystal, that's in the short run. That's in the short run. I mean, that's just like new establishment media. You know, it's I mean, they're not bucking the system, right? They're just a new version on a different platform of effectively Fox News. I know. But Crystal, I'm a business person and I can see that those models are unworkable in the long run.

Basically, what the right wing billionaires are doing is they have a marketing budget. Right. And their marketing budget goes to things like other right wing media, right? Online right wing media. And I get it. And that's a big reservoir of money that the left doesn't have at all.

Right. Right. And so it's so ironic when they're like Soros controls everything. Have you guys checked in down? I mean, it gets financed. OK, let alone the fact that Soros hasn't helped us a dime. Right. As far as I don't know about you guys. So I get all that. But.

They don't have margins. It's not a real business. OK, it's not a real business if you have to rely on, as Dennis Prager does, $23 million a year from right wing billionaires. Right. That's just a marketing short term marketing operation, whereas building a real business where people actually value what you're doing, value the truth that is sustainable in the long run. And we've proven that.

- Yeah. - So look, last thing on Trump in terms of why-- - And then I wanna talk some about Elon if you don't-- - No, I don't mind at all. - Few more minutes, right? - But like on why I'm not despondent as I was in 2016. - Okay. - Okay, so there's the right wing base, but there's one other thing with Trump. He loves being popular.

So you got to get one decent person in the room to show him how to be popular. Because I don't think he knows how. He's just grasping at straws. He's blind, right? He keeps doing A-B testing. He's like, okay, what's more popular, being pro-immigrant or anti-immigrant? He did that like back in 2015. He went on a radio tour and he's like, pro-immigrant? No, that's not. Oh, okay, anti-immigrant. Oh, yeah, okay, people like that, right? Yeah. So but paid family leave is popular.

Health care is popular, higher wages is popular, and the right wing populists like all that. Anti-war, anti-corruption, those are all popular and the right wing populists agree with the left wing populists. So there is an area of possible agreement there that could get something done that the establishment would never do. The establishment would never be anti-war, they would never be anti-corruption, they would be never anything positive.

So like we've broken out of that prison and that prison was the worst place in the world and it was filled with nothing but gaslighting about the American people suck and the donors are the greatest and the politicians are honest. I just don't know who was gonna be that voice, number one, because his administration has largely been filled with, you know, almost with a few exclusions, you know, I think the labor secretary is a notable one, but with almost all like sort of right-wing ideologues,

And number two, I guess part of what I'm grappling with as well is if you go down the list of issues, I'm all for a horseshoe and I think there are some areas there, you know, to work with Josh Hawley or work with, it used to be Marco Rubio actually was kind of interesting on some of the economic stuff. Like Matt Gaetz also was interesting on some of the economics. All for horseshoe working with elected representatives, et cetera. But if you go down the list, I

I think you and I are mostly ideologically in the same place. I'm sure we have some differences, but I think we're by and large ideologically in the same place. If I go down a list, I am on almost every issue closer to the Kamala Harris Democrat than I am to the Donald Trump Republican, whether it's healthcare or wages or labor or any of these things. And so that's what's kind of

That's what's a little bit like dissonant for me is, you know, if we're caring about the policy outcomes, I think I'm much more likely to get improvement, not the things we would want like Medicare for all, but much more likely to get improvement on the policy outcomes that I would want to see from a Kamala Harris. So react to that. But also, like, are you saying that you're actively happy that Trump beat her at this point? No. But so what I was going to say is, since I agree with you ideologically that I'm closer to the...

theoretical Kamala Harris positions. Right. That's why I voted for Kamala Harris instead of Donald Trump. Right. And I'm worried that Donald Trump, again, never called him a Nazi, never called him Hitler, but fascist is another word for authoritarian, right? And so, yeah, I'm worried that Donald Trump's an authoritarian, so that's why I voted, and he said to terminate the Constitution. Yeah. That's why I voted for Kamala Harris. Okay. Yeah. So now, having said that, uh,

But now that he has won, right, I would have preferred an actual populist instead of what I view to be a fake populist, right? But now that he has won, there is a tiny ray of hope that did not exist in the establishment prison. Okay, I hear that. So last thing on that is-

I'll give you a specific example. Paid family leave. Is Trump likely to do it? No, of course not. Right. So and was Kamala Harris going to do it? No, of course not. OK, no, there's a chance with her. No, I totally disagree. That's why I disagree. The establishment never waivers. They will do what corporate donors tell them.

Not 99% of the time, 100% of the time. But that's not true. It is 100% true. I will debate you on any issue. I'll give you some specific examples from the Biden administration, which is antitrust, Lena Kahn. The Wall Street Journal hated him for that. The billionaires hated him for that. I mean, that was a big pressure campaign they put on Kamala Harris to make sure she got rid of Lena Kahn. So that is...

He was the most pro-labor president we have had in our lifetimes. That is the lowest bar there is. Of course. But these are two areas where the donors did not want this. And his National Labor Relations Board, the general counsel, Jennifer Abruzzo, genuinely sort of revolutionary in her approach. They ended captive audience meetings, for one example. A lot of the decisions she made helped to enable this grassroots labor movement.

organizing surge. And so, you know, that was a break from neoliberalism. Now he has destroyed any possible positive legacy with genocide in Gaza and all kinds of other things besides and being so arrogant and not getting out of the way, et cetera. But he did break with what the billionaires wanted and what the donors wanted in a few key areas. And I think we are very, like, that is not going to happen with Trump. Trump has already handed so much government power, and this will help us transition into Elon,

to Elon Musk with this Doge thing. I mean, Elon is not only the richest man on the planet, but he also has massive, multi-billions of dollars in government contracts. He's one of the Pentagon's largest contractors. And whether it's Elon Musk or Jeff Bezos or Bill Gates or whoever, I, as a matter of principle, object to

like rule by billionaires, rule by unelected billionaires. And that is, this is like the most clear manifestation of that that I've ever seen. So for Biden and Obama, what they do is a release valve, right? So they'll give you five to 10% change. Sure. And I would argue that Biden at his height actually did 15% of his agenda. Yeah.

So for Democrats, that's like record breaking. We're only lying 85% of the time. No, I agree with that. Okay. So, so they say, well, well, look, we gave you a little release valve. So you don't do a revolution. We gave you Lena Kahn. We gave you a decent national labor relations board. Of course, we didn't give you the pro act. Don't be ridiculous. We're not going to actually promise. But how many Democrats supported the pro act and how many Republicans? No, but that's my point. That's my point. Uh, Crystal, Crystal,

Those Democrats are liars. They don't actually support the PRO Act. They don't actually support any of those policy positions. Giant, enormous liars. So you saw it on $15 minimum wage. Oh, we're for $15 minimum wage. And Joe Biden's like, get it out of the goddamn bill, right?

He said in the first interview in the Super Bowl, he said, oh, no, we can't do $15 a minute. Which, why? And I remember talking to people in Congress saying, oh, Cenk, what are you worried about? It's guaranteed. It's guaranteed. Nancy Pelosi told us it's guaranteed, right? And what did we do? We forced a vote on it. And what happened? Eight sellout Democratic senators voted against the $15 a minute, including the two Biden senators. And how many Republicans voted against it? No, no, but Chris.

Crystal, I stipulate that the Republicans are totally corrupt. But are you? Because it seems like you're saying that you're more likely to get something real out of them than you are out of the Democrats. And look, I'm clear-eyed about the Democrats. I've been plenty critical of them in their many failings. But I just don't think that's true. And part

of it is that Democrats get significant funding from labor unions and that's a part of their coalition. And so that's part of why they're, that's part of why, that's part of why they have been more, I mean, they have just, the Biden administration in particular was pretty consistently pro-labor. And I think they deserve, you know, I think they deserve some credit for that. And we just drag him to the picket line and he finally makes it to a picket line. Everyone's like, oh my God.

A Democrat didn't lie 100% of the time. I'm not trying to say the Democrats are perfect, but Donald Trump is a strike breaker. Of course. He went to Elon Musk and was like, isn't that awesome how you fired these striking workers? But, Crystal, no. He has been a union buster his entire career. His first NLRB and Labor Secretary were horrendous. But it kind of feels like you are.

No, no, no, no. Look, let's, so let's be super clear about it. Yeah. So if you say to me, establishment Republicans suck, I agree 200%. But,

But the Republican populist base that elected Trump did a revolution against Mitch McConnell, did a revolution against that establishment. Yeah, because he was anti-Trump, not because of his corporate whatever. Trump passed the biggest tax cut for rich people ever. Nevertheless, the establishment Republicans are defeated and humiliated, and I love it.

I don't think they are, Cenk. Marco Rubio is Secretary of State. But let's see what happens with the right-wing base. When he goes to start that war, we're going to find out. So, no, here, I'll give you two specific examples. Number one, on paid family leave, neither one of them is likely to do it. And no, I'm not thinking everything is rainbows and sunshine and, oh, my God, Trump's going to be amazing. No, he is more likely to do what he has done in the past. And what he has done in the past is bad, bad to terrible.

Okay. So I've got that at about 75%. Everyone else has it at 99 or 100% that is on our side, right? And I think that that is wrong. I think there's a 25% chance that that right-wing base and his desire for popularity makes a difference. I think with corporate Democrats, you would have never, ever gotten paid family leave, even though it polls at 84%. They're enormous liars. All they have to do is

introducing it, it passes, right? So the fact that they know that they can just introduce it and have it pass and they won't do it anyway shows you they are hopeless. They are 100% donor driven and every once in a while release valve, release valve, okay? So on the pressure. But on the Republican side- Yeah.

If you convince Donald Trump that paid family leave is will make him more popular. He'll do it overnight He doesn't care about the right wing ideologues around. I mean, this is the thing. I know there's no Give up home. You just can't you just can't know but you talk about the Pentagon No, but you have let's talk about the Pentagon because I do think that's an interesting point of conversation

If I look at how many Democrats support the PRO Act and how many Republicans, if I look at how many Democrats support paid family leave and how many Republicans, I'm not saying the Democrats are great, but I am saying that that release valve is vastly superior to, you know, with Trump, you're going to get

some level of extremely cruel border policy, which is going to cause unbelievable pain to a number of people, you are going to probably get West Bank annexation and more brutality in the Middle East. And so I just can't sort of, you know, well, yeah, you know, I'll have a hope and a prayer that maybe something positive will come out somewhere. Like, I'm just clear-eyed about I think there's going to be a lot of

pain and cruelty and unnecessary suffering caused by this administration. So that's why it's hard for me to relate to like a sense of optimism about the possibility, even as again, I'm all for a good horseshoe. If there's an issue, you know, Bernie Sanders has done this also working with, I think Josh Hawley on stimulus checks, like do it great, get what you can.

But also, like I said before, I think what's likely to happen, the most likely outcome is just things are going to get overall worse. And that's where I am. Look, I don't know how many times I could repeat it before people believe me.

I know Donald Trump has done terrible things in the past. That's why I fought tooth and nail against them in all of the elections. Yeah. I know what is more likely. I know how awful the Republicans have been in the past. Right. Okay. The only point of disagreement is I think some of those right wing voters are not as horrific as you think they are. Oh, I don't think the voters are horrific. I don't think that at all. I think that they, there is no track record.

them, you know, constraining Donald Trump, holding him to account. He has become the central figure in the Republican Party. And, you know, however he wants to spin things, whatever case he wants to make, what I have seen is people consistently, even in this era, even with new parts of the coalition, et cetera, I have seen them fall in line. And that's where the RFK Jr. and the Tulsi example comes in. Yeah, I get it. So if I said to you, who is more likely to cut the Pentagon?

Joe Biden, Kamala Harris, or Donald Trump? None. Okay. I agree. I mean, Donald Trump increased the defense budget every year that he was in office. Of course, and he bragged about it. Yes. Okay? So I agree that none of them are likely to cut it. But with Trump, because of his right-wing base and his desire for popularity, I have it at possible...

With Biden and Harris, it had a 0% chance because they work for the goddamn donors. They would never cut the military. So does Trump. Yeah. He went to oil executives and was like, give me a billion.

I'll give you a billion dollars and I'll do whatever you want me to do. He totally flipped on crypto. Crypto is going to be a disaster. You don't have to convince me of that. But let me see if I can break through one last time. So if Biden said, if Kamala Harris had won and she developed a conscience, which is nearly impossible, and said, you know what? This Pentagon is bloated. Look at all this fraud and abuse. They can't find $400 billion. That's it. I'm cutting $200 billion from the Pentagon. Even if she had done that, which had a 0% chance.

The Democrats would have stopped her. Not just the Republicans, but the Democrats would have found a way to stop her and not allow her to cut the Pentagon. So there was no hope at all, a black hole of hope, okay? With Trump, if the Republicans go to stop him, if he goes to cut the Pentagon, they won't be able to. If Mitch McConnell goes and Rick Scott goes, you won't cut the Pentagon, Trump will be like, what did you say, bitch? Okay? I mean, Mitch.

Okay, right? And Mitch McConnell will go, I'm so sorry, I'm so sorry. We're cutting the Pentagon, everybody. We're cutting the Pentagon. Because Trump has them bullied. That is another advantage of Trump, that he could bully the establishment, the grotesque establishment that has left all of these evils. So his sort of authoritarian tendencies, jujitsu move, end up being a benefit. It's your position. This is it.

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I do want to just quickly, because we've already gone on a long time, I don't want to keep you too long, but I do want to talk a little bit about the Elon thing. And we can put up the Bernie Sanders tweet. You had done, you would like reach out to Elon like, hey, I'll, you know, I'll help you cut the Pentagon budget if you're serious about this. Bernie Sanders says something similar. Elon Musk is right. The Pentagon just failed its seventh audit. That must change, blah, blah, blah. Obviously, I would like to see the Pentagon's budget cut.

I will tell you, like I said, I am all for working with the elected representatives, as Bernie has done in the past with Josh Hawley and others on areas of agreement, totally fine with. Maybe my core litmus test, and you and I were talking about this before, like if I was to design the Democratic Party from scratch, the litmus test would all be around economics, and there would be a larger tent around cultural issues, even as I personally have mostly lefty positions on cultural issues. But

Pretty core litmus test for me is we shouldn't be allowing unelected billionaires to effectively run the government. And so on this particular issue, I do come down in a different place than you because I think this project of giving Elon Musk, richest man on the planet,

One of the Pentagon's largest contractors who's embroiled in all sorts of regulatory disputes around labor violations and environmental degradation and SEC violations, giving him carte blanche to remake the government however he wants to. Like just out of principle, I think that's a project overall that should be opposed.

Yeah, so totally agree, but that's not where we are. So let's talk about the agreement and then let's talk about what to do going forward. So this is what I told Republicans and the right-wing voters and the independents before the election. Look, Donald Trump openly brags about his corruption. He goes, I used to be against electric vehicles.

But then Elon gave me a very strong endorsement. Right. So here we are. Yeah. I'm like, you just admitted that you are the swamp. Right. And so and he brags about, oh, Sheldon Adelson gave me a strong endorsement back in 2016 and 2020. That means $100 million in both races. Right. Yeah. So he said, so I moved the embassy for him. You just admitted that you gave U.S. foreign policy to a donor. And he's now done that with Miriam Adelson. Mm hmm.

You know, he's saying, oh yeah, I'll start any war Israel wants because Miriam gave me $137 million. On TikTok, he was even more brazen. He was like, I was against TikTok, tried to get a ban, but Jeff Yass gave me a strong endorsement. That's right, crypto, same deal. Yeah, and so now I'm for TikTok, right? So he admits his corruption in spectacular fashion. It's unbelievable. Would I allow Elon Musk in an ideal world to basically have...

power over at least half the government just because he's one of the top donors to Donald Trump? No, I don't want billionaire donors in charge of the government, right? So that is clear and obvious. And I hope one day right-wing populists finally realize, oh, maybe billionaire donors aren't our friends.

Maybe that they're ringing the rules not to our benefit, but to their benefit, right? So I understand and stipulate to all that but nevertheless Trump won and here's Elon Musk and Vivek Ramaswamy We're going to be in charge of this. Yeah, we're going to be in charge of this Department whatever the hell this department is, which is really the whole government, right? That's right And so I say half the government but it's not it's the whole government. And so how do I make the best of it? Well

We've always wanted to cut the Pentagon, right? So if they're looking to make cuts, I suggest the idea of cutting the Pentagon. Now, normally that's where it would end, especially if I said that to Joe Biden or Kamala Harris, they'd be like, get out of here, you loser, online media, populist loser. No way, no way. Biden doesn't know how to log into Twitter.

Yeah. So they'd be like, no way. They'd go and, you know, give a general a handy. That's, you know, and be like, oh, no, don't worry, General. Don't worry. Joe Biden's here to protect you. Right. And so would Mitch McConnell. So would every dirtbag Republican. Right. So but here, Elon Musk and Donald Trump Jr. said, maybe, maybe, maybe we do that. Right. Maybe we do. Then I suggested a conflict of interest rule where the generals can't be defense. Go work for defense contractors afterwards.

And why did Elon, this is the important part I'm trying to get through to you guys. Why did Elon and Donald Trump Jr. go, all right, Cenk, attaboy? Not a thing they would normally say. Because they like saying, even lefty Cenk Uygur agrees with the Department of Government Efficiency.

That's why. So Crystal, I totally get that. Yeah. And I understand that that's part of their motivation. Yeah. But the main motivation was not that. The main motivation is because on X, they could see all of their base going, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes. Because their base also likes even lefty Cenk Uygur is on board with Department of Government Efficiency. Like, I understand where you're coming from. I understand where Bernie's coming from of like, listen, this is the world and we have to deal with it and we're going to get what we can get.

If you're talking about an elected representative, I am 100% on board with all of that. With this specific project, I think it's dangerous to normalize giving billionaires this level of control over the government.

your willingness to engage with it, which again, I understand where you're coming from. I'm not saying you're bad or evil or whatever for doing it. But I think this level of engagement gives this project of total billionaire control over the federal government a sense of bipartisan legitimacy and creates the appearance that genuinely beneficial things are going to come out of it when I do not think that genuinely beneficial things are going to come out of it overall, even if there are

things that they cut that you and I would both be like, okay, that's fine that they cut that. Because look, Elon Musk, he is himself.

one of the largest Pentagon contractors. He has all of these massive conflicts of interest. This is a project like any normal Koch brothers type right wing project to strip the capability of the government so that it's less able to regulate and constrain robber barons like Elon Musk or any other of the billionaire class that has rigged the economy. And so that's why in this specific instance, I think it's more important to just oppose the project

outright and try to explain to people why this is a really pernicious development in our nation's history versus giving it some credibility by being like, oh, look, they might do some good things and they might work with me on this or that proposal. So totally agree, totally disagree. The part I agree on is, yeah, it's a pernicious project. I don't want to validate billionaires running the government, donors running the government. That was a problem with the establishment in the first place. And yes, Elon Musk has enormous conflicts of interest, not just with the public,

Pentagon. He wants to get rid of the Consumer Financial Protection Bureau. Why? Because they're the cops on Wall Street. And the NLRB.

And why do they want to get rid of that? Because it serves his billionaire interests, right? So I'm trying to, I hope to God, I know it's a tough, tough task, but get the right-wing populace to realize he's another donor. Wake up, wake up, he's a donor. And he wants to get rid of the cops that are regulating him, right? And so some people- He wants to defund the police. Yeah. Just the white collar police. That's literally the analogy I use. He wants to defund the police on Wall Street. Yeah. Right? And so-

So, and some people online think, oh, Jake, are you going to call them out on the Consumer Financial Protection Bureau? Of course, Consumer Financial Protection Bureau saves $20 for every dollar we spend on it. They get back $20 billion for every $1 billion we spend. But not only that, the $20 billion is money that the bankers stole from us, right? And they admit that they stole it and that's why they pay those fines, et cetera. So it's actually the best part of the government. I agree with all of that.

But they are in charge. We did lose. So like on immigration, I agree with you. They're gonna do some awful things on immigration that I don't agree with. But the voters did kind of vote for that, okay? And we have to be cognizant of that, right? No, I know.

But the voters didn't vote for a giant war in the Middle East. They voted against that, not for that, right? The voters did vote against corruption at large. Yeah, maybe they got misdirected by Trump, right? But they still hate corruption at their core. So if you can make them see the corruption. Now, in the midst of all of that, though, if you say me, Ro Khanna, and Bernie Sanders shouldn't legitimize this and instead should go, hey, you know what, cut Medicare and Medicaid first.

Don't worry about the Pentagon. Don't worry about the conflicts of interest. Don't worry about cutting the Pentagon. Cut the best parts of the budget first. No, no, no. I guess where you and I disagree is I just do not believe that they actually are serious about any positive intent. I don't believe they're going to cut the Pentagon.

the Pentagon, period. And so that I think that may be partly why come down in a different place. But also, my position really is that with this particular project, because it is so pernicious to just give carte blanche to a group of billionaires with massive conflicts of interest, like some of the largest conflicts of interest you can imagine.

I think to me the most important approach to that is just to oppose it. But I understand where you're, I get where you're coming from, Jack. Can I, I want to address something to the audience. Yeah, sure. Can I, is this my camera here? Okay, yeah. So right-wing populists, it is now your job to prove Crystal wrong. Go out and do it, y'all. So she doesn't believe you. And by the way, almost no one on the left other than me and Anna believe you guys that you actually want to cut the Pentagon and that you could pressure Elon Musk and Donald Trump to cut the Pentagon.

So are you going to prove the left wrong or are you going to prove them spectacularly right? Am I going to have to come on here and apologize to Crystal for ever believing in any right-wing populist?

And say, oh, I was a sucker. Those guys were liars. All they want to do was increase the Pentagon, have more wars, more corruption. And they never held Trump accountable. We waited four long years for them to hold him accountable. And all they did was kiss his ass and show that they don't really believe in freedom. They said all this stuff about freedom, but they never meant it. They said all this stuff about drain the swamp, but they never meant it. They said all this anti-war stuff, but they never meant it. We're going to come back on here in one year, two years, four years. And we're going to keep doing a check.

So if right-wing populists are...

Frauds? I'm going to say, Crystal, you were right. There were frauds all along, okay? But I don't think so. I think they actually mean it. Let me just say, we already have some examples. So I'll give you one and then we can wrap things. I'll give you the final word and we can wrap things up here. But, you know, RFK Jr. put in at HHS or nominated to be put in at HHS talking a big game about getting bad stuff out of the food system. I agree with you, agree with that, you know, taking on big ag, etc.,

Trump just put in for the USDA and at the FDA Brooke Rollins, who's a total corporate big ag, she'll be ag secretary, big ag shill. Now, RFK had come with a list of like, here's who I want to help me in my project. And he's like, no, I'm going to go with the lady who's going to be friendly to big ag interests.

Have you heard a word? Have you heard RFK Jr. come out? Have you heard any of his followers come out and be like, oh my God, like they're going back on Maha already? No.

And so that's why I am highly skeptical that you're going to see any level of like expectant, like consistent adherence to principle and holding of account of Donald Trump, because I just have never, never seen that before. Remember in the, before he ran in 2016, he said he was going to give everybody healthcare and then he didn't. And everyone was just like, yeah, that's fine. So I just don't,

I see no indication that it will be at all different this time around. And I see a lot of indications that will actually be worse because he'll be more unchained and given more freedom to pursue his absolute worst and most authoritarian instincts, thanks to the Supreme Court's decision and, you know, the...

effort that was engaged in in the offseason to get the most ideological sycophants put into positions of power and to bring everybody to heel this time around. Yeah. I see the same indications you do of the bad impulses. Yeah. But I see an indication of good impulses from the right wing voters that you do not see. So, for example, on Team Israel, Rubio, Stefanik, etc. I don't think people are nefarious. I just think they're busy. You know, they're busy and they've decided to trust this guy and they're just going to trust this guy.

Okay, that's what I'm saying. I think you're wrong. What I have seen is they don't like Team Israel because Team Israel is Team War, Team Neocon, etc. That's just not what the polling suggests. Most Republicans are of Team Israel. Okay, all right, let's find out. We're going to find out. If you look at the polling, Democrats overwhelmingly were in favor of a ceasefire and in favor of an arms embargo. Republicans

Republicans are, I think, in favor of a ceasefire, but they are not in favor of an arms embargo. They are much more favorable as a group. There are some exceptions, but as a group towards Israel. And so anyway, I don't want to belabor that point in particular because I know you're making a broader point about a variety of issues. And on Besant, the Treasury Secretary, I've seen pushback on that. I've seen pushback on some nominees that I've never seen among Republicans before. So maybe that pushback is a mirage.

And so and I'm not expecting it right out of the gate. Don't get me wrong. I'm not expecting right wing populists to rise up and go. Kash Patel is a lunatic and we're not in favor of him. No, they love him. Yeah, they love him. Yeah, I get it. I get that. So those are the bad impulses. I see it. I'm not unaware of it. But I'm also seeing actual anti-corruption, anti-war impulses. And I would rather feed those good impulses than to say we hate you all.

I never want to talk to you guys. I don't trust you. And I think you're only going to do evil in the world. I don't think that's productive. I just want to say. And I also don't think it's true. I just want to say, just to make it really clear.

When I'm being critical, I'm being critical of the elites, the Trumps, the Elon Musk, the Vivek Ramaswamy. This is not meant to slime, you know, everybody who voted for. And that's something I've really tried to be consistent about throughout the Trump era. And, you know, something Sagar and I have really tried to engage with. I'm just, you know, I think.

what we've seen in the past is likely to be what we see in the future. So let's see if the right wing bros, the right wing populists, the, you know, the, the Rogans of the world, if they have any integrity at all, we're going to find out. Right. And are they going to hold Trump accountable or are you right? And the rest of the left, right, that they're not going to hold them accountable at all. And they're going to let them be a runaway

Rogan is supposedly going to go do some shows in Mar-a-Lago, so we'll see if he asks any challenging questions about the principles there. Well, he's not known for challenging questions, but... We may find out pretty quickly here, Cenk. Okay, so last thing I'll say on the Democrats is... So you're right, the establishment's going to strike back, right? So...

If there's one takeaway from this, it's not from this whole conversation, it's not about Trump, it's not about the right-wing populists, it's that for Democrats, do not let your guard down. They're gonna bring back Gavin Newsom and Pete Buttigieg and all the corporate robots. - Absolutely. - Okay? We need, the only thing that could defeat right-wing populism is left-wing populism, okay? Or we join forces on some issues. Great, wonderful, right? But if you go back the establishment route, that is a,

dead end. It has no, forget whether you're a progressive or you're more conservative Democrat or more corporate Democrat, forget, put that aside. They have no chance of winning. It's over. It's over. They're going to run into that brick wall a hundred times. And Scarborough and the viewer are going to lie to you every time. Oh, you got to pick the corporate guy. The corporate guy is the one who's the only

one who could win, right? Do not let them lie to you in that 2028 primary. It is imperative that we pick a populist left-winger in 2028. Otherwise, we have no chance of retaking the White House. Yeah, well, and not even just no chance of retaking the White House, but no chance of really delivering for people. And ultimately, I don't give a shit whether the Democratic Party wins or loses. That's, you know, I think what you and I, where we find common ground is I actually want to

make life easier and better for people in this country. So Cenk, love you, brother. Always great to see you. Glad to see you in town here. Thank you. Although I do feel bad for you. What is LA is probably like in the seventies right now. It's fucking cold as hell here right now. So I don't know what you're thinking about. Well, I'm going to Florida next to do Patrick Red Davis. All right. All right. There you go. I'm going to get, I'm going to relax for two days before heading back to LA, but it's freezing out here, but I'm warmed by our conversation and the love in this room. Yeah.

All right. Thank you, Cenk. And thank you guys so much for watching. And I will see you. CounterPoints will be in tomorrow and we'll see you back here on Thursday.

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