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Hey guys, before we dive into the episode, we have exciting news. Betrayal is coming to Substack, which is an online community. We're calling our Substack Beyond Betrayal, a place where we dive deeper into the stories you hear on this show. Please consider joining our community to gain access to exclusive content, engage with me and subjects, as well as connect with others who have experienced betrayal. Just head to betrayal.substack
That's S-U-B-S-T-A-C-K. Or just go to Substack.com, search Beyond Betrayal, and hit subscribe. I'm embarrassed. I'm humiliated. I'm ashamed. I know what I did was wrong. I'm very sorry for it. Again, I take full responsibility for my actions, and I ask for mercy. I'm Andrea Gunning, and this is Betrayal Season 4, Episode 2, Cat and Mouse.
In the last episode, we met Caroline Borrega and learned about her husband, former Colorado Springs Police Lieutenant Joel Kern. On the outside, they were the perfect American family. Then on April 11, 2022, Joel detonated a bomb on his life, a bomb that would destroy his family. It started with a text he sent to his wife that read...
I was caught receiving oral sex from two women in my cop car. I lied about it during an internal affairs investigation. I am now pending termination. April 11th is now called D-Day by Caroline and her kids. Here's Caroline and Joel's daughter, Nicole. That evening, I had a lacrosse game. And so I started kind of getting ready for my lacrosse game. It started as a normal day.
but it soon would become an inflection point. My mom called me to follow her into the bathroom, and I don't even remember what she was doing, maybe taking down her hair from her up-do. She just was acting off, and so I said, what's wrong? And she didn't respond. She was scared. Something was wrong. Did something happen?
And then I said, "Is daddy okay?" Caroline was at a loss for words. They all lived with the fear that one day, Joel wouldn't come home from work. But Joel wasn't injured or killed in the line of duty. Still, nothing was okay. Caroline and Joel's son was a freshman in college, far from home.
I get a call from my sister, and so I send it to voicemail. I get another call, and then I hit the text to reply, and I say, I'm about to walk into a chemistry midterm. Can I call you after? And she texted back, no, it's an emergency. So I pick up the phone, and I call her, and I remember my mom and my sister shaking up in tears,
The family met in the living room. Nicole and Caroline sat on the couch. Caroline and Joel's son was on speakerphone. And Joel stood in front of the fireplace. It was the most bizarre family meeting you could imagine. It felt like someone else's life.
But no, it was happening in their home. Our daughter's sitting right next to me. Our son's on the phone. And the three of us are just in hysterics. You can hear our son hysterically crying. Our daughter's hysterically crying. And I said, you need to tell the kids what's going on. What was going on? Well, to understand the events of April 11, 2022, we need to go back a few months prior, to February 5th.
That day, a stranger showed up on Caroline and Joel's doorstep. Joel was home and answered the door. The whole interaction happened to be recorded. The sound isn't great, but you'll get the gist of it. And we've distorted the stranger's voice to protect his privacy. Hey, how you doing? Nice dog, man. Can you bring your wife home by chance? Why's that? Do you know who I am? No. See, that's my wife out there, the one that you fucked in your cruiser. What are you talking about?
I'm not here to harass you. But I'm saying, Joel? Yeah, I'm talking about you. Okay, my wife? Okay, my wife is there. Dave? I would want to know if you know her. I have no idea who you're talking about.
And if that's the case, then I owe you an apology. I'm not-- like I said, I'm not here to cause problems. You want me to leave? Well, then why are you here? So if you don't know my property-- I don't have your property. Hey, like I said, I'm not here to harass you. I will-- that's not what I'm trying to do. I just wanted to know you know my wife. No, I don't. I know you're a cop and all that stuff, man. I know that. But that's not cool. That's not cool. I just want you to stay away from my wife. You can't even look me in the face and tell me you made a mistake.
And with that, the couple took off and Joel was left alone to contemplate what just happened. This man managed to find his house and came right to his front door. Caroline had been out on a run and missed the whole confrontation by minutes. But Joel wasn't home alone.
Nicole was in the basement, just doing her homework. Usually, I would have went up and just saw who was at the door with him. But for whatever reason, I just continued to do my homework. And so later on, I asked him, you know, who was at the door? And then he just said, like, some solicitor.
Joel carried on as if nothing happened. In fact, later that night, Joel and Caroline went to a party. He also never mentioned the confrontation to his family. It was a Yellowstone-themed party, and I'm throwing on a blonde wig, pretending to be Beth, and got him a beard to be ripped. We left, and we were going to a friend's house who we had been to their home hundreds of times. And he pulled up to the wrong house.
And I said, what are you doing? And so he was like, what do you mean? And I said, you pulled up to the wrong house. He said, oh, I didn't know that. And so, you know, we back out, go to the right house. Okay. Caroline laughed it off in the moment. Looking back now, she sees that Joel's mind was somewhere else that night. But there was bad news for Joel. The stranger who came to his door made another stop that day.
After he pulled out of Joel's driveway, he and his wife drove straight to the Colorado Springs Police Department, or CSPD, and filed an official complaint against Joel. After all, an officer having sex in his police car while on duty would be a major professional violation. We filed an open records request so we could get those investigation records. Over the past year, we received hundreds of pages from CSPD, all relating to Joel Kern,
We were also given actual audio recordings from the investigation. What you're about to hear is from one of those recordings. It's Joel's boss, Commander Strassner, being interviewed by Internal Affairs about Joel's alleged misconduct. How did you become aware of this investigation? Can you kind of walk me through that? About February 7th, I got a call just advising me that there was an internal complaint that was filed over the weekend.
regarding Lieutenant Kern possibly having sex in the back of his vehicle. - Strassner was one of the first people Joel went to when he heard about the complaint.
He adamantly denies anything happened. He goes, I don't even know these people. I don't know what they're talking about. I haven't seen them before. There's no way I would do that in a police car. He goes, I made the statement of I didn't have sex in the back of my car when I was in high school or college. I'm sure as the heck not going to do that now kind of thing.
Very visibly upset, almost in tears, and just really angry about how somebody could file a false complaint and turn his entire world upside down and his family upside down. So he was really upset and really pissed off. But was his rage really directed at the couple for making the complaint? Or was it directed at the Internal Affairs Department for taking the complaint seriously?
Joel was an experienced, respected police lieutenant. This investigation threatened to take all that away.
He goes, "I just don't understand why this couldn't have been a preliminary inquiry. I tell you no and this thing be closed." A preliminary inquiry is like an initial check to see if there's any valid reason to suspect that the officer has done something wrong. Internal Affairs can then decide to move forward with the investigation or close the matter. I said, "Look, Joel, you know why it couldn't have been a preliminary inquiry. They gotta go through the process."
Let's be clear, what the complaint was alleging was no ordinary affair. They were claiming police misconduct, an officer abusing his badge, having sex in a taxpayer-funded vehicle, on the public's time, and in public. Remember, Joel had worked in internal affairs years earlier. He understood how it operated.
Ironically, he had worked in the department with Commander Strassner. But Strassner also gave Joel some reassurance. I said, look, I have no reason not to believe anything that you're telling me.
because if you didn't do this, as you're saying, either one of two things, they're completely learning and they need to be charged with false reporting or somebody's impersonating you and we need to get to the end of that. And so we've got to do this thoroughly and I'm going to make sure I stay in contact with internal affairs to make sure it's a complete and thorough investigation. Strassner could tell that Joel was distraught. This was a serious matter. Someone could be filing a false report or impersonating him.
Strassner assured Joel that if someone was victimizing him, they would be held accountable. To complete the investigation, the CSPD took Joel's police vehicle and his department-issued phone. If it was me in his shoes, and as he's saying, all of it is fabricated, I would be incredibly upset and angry. And to me, it seemed very genuine and authentic.
I mean, I got no reason to doubt what he's saying. This was recorded in February 2022. The investigation into Joel had been going on for two months. Two months where he knew his life was on the brink of collapse. Meanwhile, Caroline was completely in the dark. Joel didn't tell her about the man on their doorstep or the misconduct investigation. It seemed like Joel thought that with his rank and years of service, he would be able to talk his way out of this.
But the CSPD was taking it seriously. They went ahead and looked for any evidence that would support the couple's claim. And that included interviewing the man and his wife. Yes, the couple who showed up at Joel's door agreed to cooperate. So Internal Affairs sat with the woman Joel adamantly denied ever seeing before. Here are some of that interview.
Lieutenant Chanza asked the woman about how she met Joel. She explained it was on a Fetish and King social network called FetLife.com. And as a note, we've altered the voices of all the civilians interviewed by CSPD to protect their privacy.
What was it that initially drew your attention to the person we're talking about today? He contacted me, just like Facebook has Messenger, there's a Messenger within it. Joel had suggested that they meet at a public park. I drove in my vehicle to go meet him. When I got to the location, which was Memorial Park, he was in what looked like an unmarked police car.
I imagine the first question would be, how would I know that? I've got a number of officers in my family who I've seen their unmarked vehicles. I do know what they look like. He could see I was nervous. I was shaken. And at that point, it probably should have stopped. Did the two of you have anything in common, any fetishes as you described them that kind of
made you kind of continue the conversation? Yes, he was into domination and I was into submission. He told me that he would enjoy spanking me and fisting me and choking me and pulling my hair. So what leads you to believe that this person was a police officer? He stated he was. Can you tell us a little more about that? He eventually told me his name and...
you know eventually told me that he was a police officer with springs police told me he did traffic investigations so when he told you his name what name did he give you joel kern were you physically harmed in any way i know you said it bruised were you harmed in any way during this encounter i mean i was bruised and that's about the extent of it the damage i'll suffer is on me
Was there any aspect of this meeting that was non-consensual from your perspective? No. This isn't about digging into his life and trying to harm him. It is simply about, as an officer, he should not be using his vehicle to have what I imagine is probably not the first attack.
This woman had come to regret her actions and confessed to her husband. She gave her husband access to her computer and all her passwords. She was remorseful about the encounter and took responsibility for her part in it.
The woman fully disclosed her actions to her husband and agreed to accompany him to Joel's house. However, as you heard, things didn't go as planned. They, of course, reported him. The woman's story was credible, and when police searched Joel's phone and computer, they found evidence supporting her story. And then they identified another woman Joel had met up with. He planned this one on his work phone, but it seemed like he forgot to delete a few messages from the exchange.
This woman had also met Joel on FetLife. Although she was cooperative, she seemed less eager to discuss the encounter. An internal affairs sergeant contacted her by phone. So you started talking, you think online in August 2021, you spoke on the phone, he would call you and you spoke through WhatsApp. When's the first time you said you met? When's the first time you actually met in person? Yeah.
I believe it was, he was at a conference in Denver and we just met briefly when he was on his way back. Like the last day that he was going back to the Springs. The woman and Joel had talked and texted for several weeks. He had attended a work conference in Denver. After talking online and on the phone, there was an opening to meet up on the way back from the conference. They met in the parking lot of a sporting goods store. But here was the information Internal Affairs was really after.
Had Joel used his police car to have sex with her, and was it while he was on duty? Was there anything in that vehicle that made you think that it was probably not his personal vehicle? You got into a silver SUV. You don't remember the make or model, but you believe it was a police vehicle because it has a radio in it. Maybe there for 20 to 30 minutes, and...
Yes. Right. No, no. Uh-huh. Yeah, I do.
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CSPD conducted a full investigation. Internal Affairs even ordered a forensic analysis of the car's interior. They determined that the complaint was true: Joel had been having sex with women in his police car, in public, on company time. On April 11th, Joel was summoned to a meeting with his commander, and you'll hear that meeting in a later episode. And it was on that day that he could no longer hide the investigation from Caroline and their kids.
In the early evening on April 11, 2022, Joel was home with his family. Caroline and Nicole sat huddled together on the living room sofa. There were tears, accusations, and grief. Their son was on speakerphone from college, alternating between anguish and disgust. As he sat in our home, he swore up and down to the kids. It was only two times. It was only these two people. That's it. It was only these two people. He was only admitting to what the CSPD had already uncovered—
Meanwhile, he told his family a tearful story about what happened. He said, I started going down a rabbit hole online when I worked at night and I would see these different websites and out of curiosity, I started corresponding with different people on different websites and that's how I met these two people. It was only these two times. It was only these two times. I was just astonished that he could do this to our family.
All I could keep saying was, how could you do this to my mom and my sister? How could you do this? You know, it's one thing to try to digest that when you have just been betrayed by your spouse. But to hear and watch your kids is just a completely different level. Joel insisted that he only had been unfaithful with two people. But Caroline wasn't naive. She knew there had to be more.
You know, I had enough sense to say, if I secure a divorce attorney and they were to do an open records request act, what else would they find in your file? And he looked terrified. With Caroline's words still hanging in the air, Joel dropped another bombshell. Back in episode one, we learned he'd been tapped for one of the department's most sought-after roles, the public information officer.
He'd be the face of the department, the media liaison, the voice. He'd already done the job temporarily. Then, out of nowhere, the offer vanished. He said, I had a falling out with the chief. And I said, you had a falling out with the chief of police. And he said, I had a falling out with him. And he's taken away my opportunity to be the public information officer. But that had been a lie. There hadn't been an issue with the chief.
The issue had been with Joel. He did not get the public information officer position because of sexual harassment. While Joel served as temporary public information officer in 2016, he asked female reporters to use an encrypted app to communicate with him. And what he said there unnerved the reporters. When one reporter heard Joel Kern was going to be appointed the permanent public information officer in 2019, she was alarmed and wrote a letter.
Here's how it began. To the Colorado Springs Police Department. I'm writing to voice my concerns about naming Lieutenant Joel Kern the next PIO. To accuse anyone of inappropriate behavior is a risk. But to accuse an officer, especially one that controls which media members get information and how fast, could be career suicide. But that is what most emboldened me to voice my concerns now.
This letter led to Joel Kern's first internal affairs investigation for sexually harassing female news reporters. The CSPD started by interviewing the reporter that wrote the letter. This is Commander Tish Osheski with Colorado Springs Police Department Internal Affairs Section. Today is February 7th, 2019. Internal Affairs asked the reporter about the app Joel asked her to download. He encouraged me to get the WhatsApp app.
so that we could communicate in a way that his phone would be more secure from the police department, as in if he was giving me tips of some sort, so that it would be encrypted and it would be on his personal phone and it couldn't be taken, that kind of stuff. He never explicitly said, do you want to do anything with me? Or like, he never explicitly asked me out or anything.
you know, things like that nature. It was all very sneaky and about interpretation. What do you mean by sneaky? Sneaky as in he would use words that would be suggestive or language that would be suggestive and it felt to me like a test to see how I took it. He brought up sexual relations with his wife.
And again, I don't remember exactly what was said, but I remember that he was on vacation or at his son's base or not baseball, but some kind of sporting event away. And he mentioned like something along the lines of, you know, maybe I'll get lucky or when you have kids, the only time you have sex is when you're away or something like that.
that obviously was inappropriate and kind of opened the door if I wanted to talk about sexual relations. You had wrote that this became obvious that the friendlier I was, the more beneficial it could be. So tell me about this. So what do you mean by friendlier? If I would have accepted his advances or been sexual in return or...
You know, when I explained, I felt like he was opening the door to talk about my sexual life. If I would have done that kind of stuff, like just given that green light that I'm okay with this behavior. Okay. So what was the benefit? The benefit was, the whole point in telling me to get WhatsApp was, you know, this was a way for him to give us tips. So the benefit was, if we're friendly, if we have this good relationship, then he would give us good scoops and tips about things going on in the police department.
The reporter knew of other women who felt the same way, but they either decided it was too risky to complain or felt it didn't rise to the level of needing to report. So without any other complaints, the investigation was relatively thin, and it looked like Joel was going to talk his way out of this one. We actually received the recording of Joel doing exactly that.
This is Commander Tish Oshetsky with Color Springs Police Department Professional Standards Division. Today is February 11th, 2019. I am interviewing Lieutenant Joel Kern in regards to Internal Affairs Case 19-030.
Oshetsky asked Joel to explain why he had urged reporters to download WhatsApp, an encrypted app that his supervisors couldn't monitor. This was a violation of department rules, and Joel knew it. "At the time, there was like this big thing in the media about stories being leaked and released, and then there was different apps that people would communicate to reporters about to be like a safe method of communication with the reporters or whatever, safe meaning like secure." At first, Joel said it was for security.
But the IA officer wasn't buying that. I guess I don't understand if you're worried about stories leaking. Why was it only these two women? Well, I mean, I see where you're going with that. And again, it's because I was communicating with them the most. Like, the one that was always asking the questions the most. I don't think it was anything that would be like a targeting thing or anything like that. Were you trying to just target? And when you say target, I mean...
Get more friendlier with those two, maybe hoping it might go somewhere? I think if I was honest with myself, then I would say, yeah, that would be an accurate statement. Are they young? Are they old? Middle-aged, I guess. Late 20s, early 30s. Okay, middle-aged, Joel. It's like 50, okay? Sorry. Are they attractive? Are they not? Okay. So you were saying that you were singling those two out.
for the whatsapp i mean that sounds bad but yeah i think that if i'm honest with myself that would be a fair statement you know they're very smart and like i say witty and there's fun to to talk to and then so i think then that's where the flirtation came in and then the sexual innuendo it wouldn't be something that i'd want
Right as the conversation gets to the heart of the issue, his abuse of power, Joel pivots. He wells up with tears and changes the subject to what he's been going through recently.
Caroline had no idea her marriage was in a bad place in 2019.
If you remember from episode one, Caroline shared Joel had a few breakdowns and ultimately started therapy. He had mentioned witnessing the carnage from fatal accident scenes and his fear about their kids starting to drive. But she'd been there for him, and they worked through it as a couple. As the interview continued, Joel read the room. He realized his best strategy would be to fall on the sword.
I'm embarrassed. I'm humiliated. I'm ashamed. I know what I did was wrong. I'm very sorry for it. And I've taken proactive steps to help myself get better. Again, I take full responsibility for all my actions. And I ask for mercy. Joel had been on the record pleading for mercy three years before his official suspension, which was on April 11th, 2022.
And on April 11th, the truth was finally being laid bare in their living room. Caroline and their daughter were on the couch and their son was on speakerphone. They listened to Joel confess that he'd been lying and covering his tracks for years. And then he went on a tirade of continuing to blame me and said that he didn't think we had sex enough. And then he started making crass comments about his sexual needs. Our daughter was just wailing and crying and our son hung up.
He never removed his wedding ring. He always kept it on. But then... He struggled for a long time, but finally gets his ring off inside of it. I had engraved forever and ever. Sets it down on the fireplace, walks over and fills up his Yeti cup, and just walked out the door.
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Engines roaring, hearts and mountain bluebirds soaring. Nevada is everything but boring. It's full of wide open wonder. In fact, there are 60 million acres of public space to explore and adventure. This is the place to discover something strange, to feel intrigued, and to feel alive, and to leave better for it. Nevada's heart is historic, and here and now, down to earth and out of this world, neon-lit and starlit too.
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My name is Dawn, and I'm a family law attorney. Dawn was a good friend to both Caroline and Joel. I was shocked, absolutely shocked when I heard the news. For me to not even have an inkling of his other side, I guess, bothered me because I usually have a pretty good gut feeling about people. Dawn normally made it policy not to represent her friends in a divorce, but she made an exception this time.
Not so much for Caroline, but for the kids. The children were very proud of their parents' accomplishments. They really appreciated and respected what they did. That was part of their identity, is that their parents were so great. So when this all happened, my inkling for the children was everything that they know, everything that they thought was good and pure or whatever, real,
The kids had to find a way to keep going. Their son wanted to come home from college, but Caroline wouldn't allow it. And their daughter? Everything happened on a Monday. And that Wednesday, I took my SATs. I had a plan, like I still needed to go to college. So, you know, she kind of ingrained, I guess, a sort of motivation where you need to do something, you just get it done.
As for Caroline, she was on autopilot. Her friends came to her with some unsettling but important advice. You know, they let me know, you really should set a doctor's appointment to make sure that I don't have anything and have a full STI, STD screen. And so I called this facility, humiliated, asked if I could schedule an appointment specifically for this. They said yes. And when I walked in,
I tried to keep myself together and then I sat in the exam room and this nurse practitioner who I had seen dozens of times for my kids' sports physicals, she walked in the room and I just immediately lost it. I'm in this exam room, I'm crying, I'm telling her these very personal details of what's just been revealed. And so she does a full exam and she leaves the room and when she came back in, she just had this
fearful look on her face. And I just was sobbing. And I said, you can tell I have something, can't you? You can already tell I have something. And she shook her head and she said, no, she was debating on telling me that Joel had essentially been blacklisted from seeing her because he had come in for different appointments before and had been
and appropriate with his commentary. I'm very sexualized with his commentary toward her. And I was mortified. And she said, given what I was going through, if she was in my shoes, she'd want to know. Caroline had asked Joel repeatedly, what else? What else have you done? She didn't want any more surprises. There had to be more than just two affairs. And this experience was confirmation that her instincts were dead on. I was just humiliated.
hearing from another female that my husband had approached them in a manner that made them feel so uncomfortable that they could not even professionally see him. It was humiliating. Absolutely humiliating. I got to the parking lot and I called him and he answered. And I said to him, this is what was just told to me. And he was very calm. And he said, I'm sorry. And I said, you knew this? And he said, yes. They let me know and I knew how I behaved.
Joel was staying in their family RV at a campground. And I told him, do not lie to me. Do not lie to me.
Nicole was at school when she noticed Caroline's location on their Family Life 360 app. I was really scared of my dad.
Because I thought, like, he did all this stuff without us knowing. I don't know what he's capable of. Next thing you know, there's banging at the door of our RV. She just got up and left her classroom at the high school and drove to where we were at. And as we were sitting there, she walked calmly over to a laptop he had taken from our home.
Nicole grabbed Joel's computer and started looking through it, logging onto various websites and reading his emails and text messages. They were there for the truth. All those long nights on duty, what else had Joel been up to? How far did his misconduct go? Suddenly, through our daughter's forensic reveal of his computer, the number of people he had sex with just started growing dramatically. Nicole dialed in her older brother.
She wanted him to hear everything. So it became the next family meeting. And then Nicole started recording on her phone. She wanted documentation. She and her mom were running on adrenaline. Cat and mouse, cat and mouse, cat and mouse. You just have to keep being caught. Why can't you just spell it all out? Because I can't remember everything. Because you had so many people. How many people did you talk to? Fifty? Hundred? What's the range?
50 sounds good. How many times did you actually physically meet someone? This is where I'm telling you, like, around the 7 to 10. And then... Another thought I had today. I cannot drive around the city without questioning. I wonder if my dad received oral sex in this parking lot. Remember that day we went to Memorial Park? We looked at the...
Police memorial and all that? No, he wanted us to see the police memorial. We ran races over by Memorial Park. Memorial Park was where Joel met the first woman to have sex in his cop car. At first, he denied he was working when they met up. But then... I know I had told you after work earlier, but I'm pretty sure it was like mid-morning or lunchtime or whatever, and then went back to work and...
Then worked out and took a shower and all that. So you left work, went and had sex with someone on the city's dime? Everyone thought Joel was one of the good ones. An honorable cop. They had sacrificed so much for his career. She didn't recognize this man. In fact, she didn't recognize her life at all. Her life was now split into two. Two realities running parallel tracks.
There were her memories. And then there was everything Joel was doing behind her back. All of those late nights. The missed sports games. The holidays. Where was he? Her brain never went there. She didn't know what was real anymore. It was a sad and terrifying feeling. The kids and I thought we were living this life of love and a family and purity. Were things perfect? Of course not.
Did we argue about taking trash out and who was going to pick up from dinner? Yup. But never did I think that anything like this was going on behind our backs ever. So was this finally the full picture? Were all of Joel's secrets out in the open? No, not even close. Here's Caroline and Joel's son. I'm not naive to the fact that all of us are human.
And everybody makes mistakes. And everybody has their shortcomings. And everybody has flaws and demons that they cope with. But to me, there's a clear line here between being a fallible person and monstrosity. On the next episode of Betrayal...
Caroline comes to the realization that Joel has been gaslighting her for years. I'm literally watching the phone where I can see him speeding to our house. He's not at another accident. He's not at the hospital. He's coming from somewhere. And so when he got home, I said, are you lying to me? And more revelations about his double life are exposed.
Thank you for listening to Betrayal Season 4. If you would like to reach out to the Betrayal team, email us at BetrayalPod at gmail.com. That's Betrayal, P-O-D, at gmail.com.
Also, please be sure to follow us on Instagram at BetrayalPod and me, Andrea H. Gunning, for all Betrayal content, news, and updates. One way to support this series is by subscribing to our show on Apple Podcasts. Please rate and review Betrayal. Five-star reviews help us know you appreciate what we do. Betrayal is a production of Glass Podcasts, a division of Glass Entertainment Group in partnership with iHeart Podcasts. The show is executive produced by Nancy Glass and Jennifer Faison.
Betrayal is hosted and produced by me, Andrea Gunning. Written and produced by Carrie Hartman. Also produced by Ben Fetterman. Our associate producers are Caitlin Golden and Kristen Malkuri. Our iHeart team is Allie Perry and Jessica Kreincheck. Story editing by Monique Laborde. Audio editing and mixing by Matt Dalvecchio. Editing by Tanner Robbins.
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