Why MicroStrategy Bought $40 Billion Worth of Bitcoin — ft. Michael Saylor
01:19:41 Share

How much money do you make?

My name is Vivian. Into a Better known as your V H B F F and your favorite, all right, early, my podcast network and chill is back and Better than ever for season to we've got finances experts and your favorite celebs answering all those taboo money questions you've been too afraid or to embarrass task with new episodes dropping every wedding day you can watch or listen, sit back and relaxed and get ready to network .

and chill that the far left cost democrats the election. The identity politics is just so flawed, both morally and as a political strategy, that that anyone left defending IT in the democratic party now, I think, has to be recognized as someone who shouldn't be listen to. I'm free bora.

In this week, neuroscientist and philosophers sam Harris joins me on my podcast stay tuned with bread. We discuss the viability of identity politics, staying intellectual, honest and the morality of the herbie and pardon. The episode is out now.

Search and follows. Stay tuned with free whereever you get your podcasts. Today is the number six point two million dollars.

That's how much a cyp tor entry prepaid at a sudden auction for a banana taped to a wall. Ed, what did the banana say to the vie brata, why are you shaking? She's onna. Eat me. 鸣人， 他的 信仰。

It's time for banter.

pretty. how? Where are you? I have never seen this background here before.

I'm in the guestroom and our rental in belsize park, which is a suburb of london, which we are moving out of back into our real home and marble bone k, which i'm hoping will lift my mood for me, two, two, a, three, because i'll be in my lemon high street and i'll get to walk and go to branders and go at my coffee and go to teds and get cleaned up. But Caroline chagrin, the producer on our other podcast, said that my room looked very.

very sad. IT does look a bit sad. It's very plain. Yeah, I felt you kind of like that aesthetic, though, out of no, no decorations, sort of muted colors, that sort of your viBrant.

Yeah, I like severely depress northern european architect that that so look looking .

for but why are you renting? What's your novation bitch?

You're not making .

them of money.

Um so bought bit about two and have three years ago and we were renovating by the way, just you know renovating IT always comes in under budget, in on time, is just such a really pleasant .

experience um and .

plus the british economy has just boom so i'm sure i'm onna make IT just to shut n the money. Now we like buying homes and fixing up and enjoy furniture and renovations, and it's a good way to make money, mostly in a booming real state market. You could start to believe you and you have some greathead, but and anyway, is removing back. And i'm super excited. And across the park, is everything about the dogs now? But do you know about how how knowledge are you on london?

Yeah, I know mulgan related. I like Molly. An we get it's out of the IT sort of become the new, the new sexy borrow in london. I would say.

yeah, that's because l senior dog, so is because his dog houses is there right now. Yeah, I like a lot. I do. I I didn't get jesus is this fascinating fucking bound .

to get to the headlines?

Ah it's the chemistry. It's the chemistry that makes this bus that's right. We're like john makeup .

they weren't having. So let's get to the headlines.

And the time to try, I hope you will have plenty of the .

intel CEO. Pat gelsinger resigned after the board expressed double about his ability to turn around the company. The stocks rose more than five percent when the news broke, then ended the day down point five percent.

President elect trump has threatened the bricks nations with one hundred percent tariffs unless they commit to the U. S. Dollar as the reserve currency.

Trump is demanding the abandoned efforts to create an alternative currency and pledge not to back any other currency. The dollar strengthens on that news. And finally, you may remember that back in june, we discussed testers, shareholder a vote on elon musk fifty billion dollar pay package.

Well, here's an update on that story. While the shareholders did vote in favor of the package for the second time, a delivery judge upheld her decision to strike IT down. Have got your thoughts, starting with pat gelsinger resignation as CEO of intel c OS.

Get unfairly compensated up and down. But after four years after I think revenue was down thirty percent, absolutely deserves to be fired. And this would be an interesting time to maybe looking to take the company private, their largest shellers vangy at nine percent background at eight and state street to four and half.

So one of the complaints people have about our economists is so concentrated here you have essentially um a small group of shareholders that kind of control the company or can block IT if twenty one and a half percent decided to vote together one way or the other the kind of control IT because the way that works in a takeover or take private is its like a an election and that is the shares show up and there are supposed to have one vote unless it's a two class winning structure. I don't think that says and twenty percent doesn't show up because it's under some mattress or it's in a custodian relationship and you know people just don't show up or or fill out the form and vote. So about eighty percent shows up so that when you need forty percent and if you already have twenty one percent of the bag, that means you just need to get about eighteen and a half of the remaining um sixty to win, which means you probably going to win.

So essentially these three shareholders are control. And for to take private with intel, i'd be curious what kind of premium someone will need to come up with but I love this is a take private mr. Glass inger is going to be fine, i'm sure, some sort of golden parachute or made really good money to rise the C E.

Opposition until man is a very talented guy. Ah so he's going to be, he's going to be just fine. Ah, this is a great brand. Gray relationships. I like this company a lot of much to think about buying some shares and even thought.

well, he's done a really terrible job just by the numbers, and we can go through them here. I'm in last month until reported seventeen billion dollar of loss, which is the largest costly loss in the company's history. Um a few months before that, he suspended the dividend for the first time, says one thousand ninety two.

He's cut fifteen percent of the workforce or one hundred thirty thousand employees and since he's taken over as CEO l has lost three fifth of its value, which is just pretty remarkable. And in that same time, the semiconductor industry as a whole, which l as a pola, if we look at the svc conductor index, IT has almost doubled. So yeah it's it's time um one day to point that I found kind of interesting here is that guessing that is one hundred and sixth american public company CEO to be pushed out of the company this year and that is an all time records.

So one hundred thousand co out in twenty twenty four that's up three x from two thousand seventeen from the time that this has been recorded. This is the biggest year for CEO being pushed out in. My question to you is what do you think that's happening?

A lot of this is simply the fatalities. If you were of ceos or ceos mean out set is timing because coming into the pandemic was seven trillion dollars in stimulus. IT was a pretty good time to be.

As to the stock mark, crazy and it's hard to fire. See you don't want fire. See when you up because everybody making money.

So what you had is this unnatural sugar high and some of the underlying revenues or the underlying businesses couldn't support this unnatural artificial sugar hive start Prices. The stocks have come down. And when shareholders and board members know somebody or an investor in another company that's like booming, they're like this fucking socks.

And how do people take out their anger? It's pretty simple. They vote amount of office.

So it's not surprising that you're saying reactor A A. I think it's a good thing. I think we need more turn. And i'm especially i'm especially this isn't going to get me on any more boards.

I think there needs to be a pretty harsh review of CEO because CEO are traditionally the for returning your authority rush chairman. They're usually really liable people and they are usually very smart and becoming friends with the board members. And I previously don't like all of them.

I don't hang out them. I don't want to be your friend. I want to be a objective and sober and be a do share for shareholders and on the way every year.

So we need to do a review, the C E, O, because these these guys and it's almost those guys makes so much fuck and money and they have so much impact on all the other stakeholders that you're really you're kind of you only really have two jobs as as a board member when if I went to sell the company and even went in, in kind of who you hire and fire the CEO um that's kind of really are two things now to share the OTC communities there to make sure that nothing funny goes on. But those really the only two things that the board member to do. And i've always, always taken myself off the boards after four years because you can't help the be weaponized was trying to board for .

a long ger than four years by the CEO this move on to trump and this threat basically against the bricks nations that he is going to put in a hundred percent tariff uh on goods that they import. And just to clarify what all the bricks nations IT IT technically stands for brazil, russia, india, china and south africa IT now also includes iran, egypt ethopia a on the U A E.

And it's sort of just it's it's a coalition of of nations who have talked in the past about potentially creating their own currency because they are so dependent on the U. S. dollar.

And I think what trump is really looting to is a statement the president ruler of brazil made last year where he pitched creating a new reserve currency for all of the bricks nations, a bricks currency. And the thing that I think trump is one little confused by this, I think he's not really recognizing, is that no one really took that proposal seriously at all. I mean, most of the other bricks leaders played IT down.

Mean, putin obviously would love for a bricks currency because he hates the fact that the U. S. Has the sanction power over russia. But now most of leaders were like now on the markets, barely reacted. So IT is a little strange that he's getting very wild up about this, if you specifically um but perhaps you'll see you see something else. What are we?

We're only about five percent of the population but were were were almost two thirds were fifty eight percent of global of reserve councils. Now why is that important? Basically to transacting dollars, you have to come through A U.

S. Institution, or you have to come through one of our networks, and we get to track the flows of power. We know our money is going where it's coming.

We can more easily impose sanctions. We can stop dollars seeing transferred. So and also when you're doing business in dollars, you're kind of subject to our decisions around interest rates. The dollar is really important. So he has that right, but it's not as if it's under threat. And I would argue that no one likes to be threatened and it's sort of I have found, generally speaking, when you threaten people, especially powerful people, they're more inclined to do what IT is. You don't want them to do.

Yes, I don't, don't, don't push this button. I don't even know that.

that existed. If you do this, i'm going to do the dollar is doing really well on its oh, right and when you when you try and tell china the second biggest economy, india, whatever is the fourth of the fifth, brazil and where brazil is, but together, these are a pretty c group IT feels me all you're doing is creating a reason for themself, like go back to the drawings or d and actually create another currency. So I don't I just not get this. I think this is a dumb move. I think it's all bluster.

unnecessary bluster to your point, the big and consistency here. What is if there is a threat to the dollar? I don't think there really is.

But if there is, one is IT the bricks, is that the euro? Is that the U. N.

Probably not. The biggest threat if there is, one is bitcoin. Now that is the currency that has been touted as the new global currency.

The whole thing is predicated on issues of rising inflation and spiring debt and ultimately, the potential collapse of the dollar. That sort of the whole point, I mean, inherent to bitcoin, is an assumption that the dollar cannot hold. And so to protect yourself against that collapse, you buy bitcoin and said, so, the entire premise of bitcoin is very anti dollar. And if trump really cares about this issue of d dollars ation, and to be clear, I think he probably should, then he should really be taking another look at his position on bitcoin. Because if anything is threatening the dollar right now, or at least trying to threaten the dollar.

I think it's that, I mean, there's somewhere that s about a few currency, and Michael will talk about this every year.

Currency and history is ultimately failed because the short term political pressure to feature people and give them back more than you're getting the short term and print money and and given to a populist movement and create huge deficit that ultimately become no one more sustainable or a result and run away inflation and that basically the currency you get the wire republic and the currency becomes, you know of useless. Every fear currency has failed. And that's one of the arguments from biton.

They claimed that once we get to twenty one million coins being mind, we stop the the currency trade wars were punching well above our way. class. And I don't know, do you have any data around whether that fifty eight percent number has gone up or down recently? well.

I don't have dates in front of me, but what I can tell you is that sixty percent is actually, I mean, a lot of people say it's come down, uh, you know used to be around seventy five percent way, way back in sort of like the the early nineteen hundreds, but it's also come up from the eighties. IT was around fifty percent in the eighties. It's now around sixty percent usdt as a percentage of global currency reserve.

So my issue with that whole argument, as people say, you know, the dollar is losing power. It's no longer the worlds first of currency gets down from seventy five percent. It's like, well, it's it's also from fifty percent.

Let's move onto a elan. And this compensation package that was struck down by chancellor kathleen, the comic, we've been discussing this story for a long time now. H, I actually made a prediction about this back in june.

I think what I can say with certainty is that whether or not it's yes or no, this vote is basically meaningless because because is what i'll happen. If the vote is approved, it'll go back to the delaway court chance, it'll go back to chance in a cork who will open up that briefing. And she's going to be like how I adjudicated this case before.

Actually, I looked at this case basically two months ago. I had made my decision very clear. The answer is no.

And I feel like what tesla is forgetting is that if you read her opinion, should actually didn't care whether the shareholders were fully informed or not. And granda SHE said they probably want, but IT had to actually no bearing on her actual decision. You know, he believed that the package was in equitable.

And as a quarter of equity, SHE also believed that he had the power to recent IT, and that was IT. And now here we are again, and we've got the same case on her desk. So nothing's gonna change here.

You not only got that right, I think I got a wrong. I think I disagreed with you and in your listen, listen, old sad man but I don't i'm mixed on this. I think that I don't think in the individual long with somebody Sanders here.

I just don't think any video should be worth a third of a trying dollars. I don't I don't see how that's healthy. You know, a power corrupts and absolute or absolutely corrupts.

And I would argue that musk is a case study and absolute corruption. Having said that, I think the way you solve this is a tax policy, not by limiting compensation. And I do think of the shareholders is the owners of an asset, the company and the owners of this company get to decide what they pay the managers. And IT strikes me that the owners have decided here to pay the manager a hundred plus billion dollars, which he is claiming. My understanding is now is SHE saying there was faulty information in the communications to the shareholders before the vote?

I think this is important to clarify here. That was a piece of the case, he said. I don't think that the voters were fully informed on what was happening, but that wasn't the main conclusion.

How main conclusion was that fifty six billion dollars just made no sense, unfair whether or not the shareholder is believed IT and that support that I think test just something I think they didn't even read the opinion because that was my point that it's not about. They thought, okay, will revote and will prove to you that the shareholders were informed. Her point is I don't care whether they are informed or not. This just doesn't make sense.

The word I find is a lack of access or. Usage in the capable society as a related of compensation is fair. And here, you know I don't know this an argument, but basically an argument might be he's not an entremets.

He doesn't own fifty percent of the company is and control IT his management. And there is some there should be some reasonable kind of fairness st. Equability test.

But that's for me where I run into into trouble. And that is if the owners of the company have approved this, what's the line and fair? Let me send you come over.

I'm going to give you this compensation of a bunch of C. E. S, and then come over most, smoke, cigarettes, need ice cream. And talk about the meaning of the word fair.

I mean, IT, just to slightly still mind her, her argument, our job to say her argument, which is that he was pressuring the board and the board was a board of sicker fans, and that's definitely true. And ultimately, the board decided to give him a compensation package, the likes of which no one has ever seen before, you know and and they said that the reason they are doing is because they need to properly incentivize him.

And her argument was you don't need to properly incentivize the sky. He was already incentive. So IT is my opinion as a judge is not a court of law but a court of equity.

As as my uncle told us on this podcast, IT is my job to to to design what is equitable to shareholder and even if they said yes, we're okay with this. I do not believe that IT is an equitable uh, compensation package. And I think the the thing that people are struggling with is should the judge of the della court chancery have that power to determine what is fair and what isn't fair?

And there's that word again. And in capitalism, the owner of the asset or the majority of the assets get to ominous directors who get to decide correctly or incorrectly, the compensation of the C. E. O. And the moment someone waves in and started using like words like fair or unfair and overrides the decisions of the people voted in by the owners of the company to make these decisions, in my view, you have government overreach. Having said that, a key component of a healthy capital society is that we have an equitable, fair taxation system to redistribute capital back into middle class, which is not a naturally occurring organism.

It's the greatest innovation in history, which requires investment to ensure that the you know, the one at three veterans aren't homeless, to ensure the people who do struggle, opiate, single parents, pal grounds, the navy, all these wonderful things that we need to pay huge dividends. Investing in dark on the internet, which all these huge companies have made billions from, not acknowledging, or trillions from that IT was middle of taxpayers to paid for this shit. You need a progressive tax ism.

And now we no longer do so. What would be my suggestion? This isn't about england's compensation of one hundred and twenty bill. It's about the following. I believe anyone who makes over a billion dollars should pay sixty, seventy, eighty percent alternative minimum tax.

Because at the end of the day, what you want, why do we have all of this shit? Why do we have capital? M, the tax structure, governance, the delivery record? You want to create a society where people feel happy and rewarded and healthy.

So I believe the equity in the fairness part comes in around. But if you start using the word fair and compensation come over and i'm going to tell you about the CEO ideal with you, you tell me what is fair or not fair. I just that's an impossible fucking and argument.

I ve just a prediction is come to me. I feel like this brings up very, very big questions about our legal system and how our legal system should work. I think what we're going to see now in one, we're going to see an appeal.

I think we maybe see some pretty serious lawsuits. I would bet this makes its way up to the supreme court, and I would bet that we see a supreme court decision or a supreme court lawsuit with scores making decision on these sort of questions. But this is one of those situations where you cannot begin to make a pretty decent argument that the whale system is set up, gives government a little too much power.

yeah. But the mechanism here is, I don't think it's not like the traditional court system.

This is then then they'll take IT to the traditional court system. If they don't wait. I mean, he's gonna a get the money.

he will find a way you think eventually OK. I think that's a good, bad. He has the mechanism here.

I believe they can once to the deliver supreme court. I don't think that this specific case want end up in the supreme court. He would have to, I guess, sue the deliver court.

Yes, he'll fall a new certain. I think I think that is what will happen. He'll file A A, A legal suit, not with the code of equity, but the code of law. And I would bet that this makes this way up to the supreme court.

Also, I think the way around this actually ad as I don't I think the board could figure out away, shareholders have said were down with a hundred plus million our compensation. I think the board can figure out a way to compensate him differently that will avoid the delhi are record.

I think there's a rational argument, and I don't know if you have picked up on this, but i'm not a huge fanning on mosque, but there's a rational argument that if you went to tim cooke right now and said, okay, we're at three train, if you can grow apple to twenty trillion, i'll give you a trillion dollars I think the shareholder of apple would say, ah that's fuck and saying a hundred dollars for sure, take that deal if you can if you can increase our stark Price, six or seven, four will give you a trillion dollars. And that's kind of what mask in the board said to shareholders. I I just feels alien to be supporting more money for elon mosque, but I don't think, I think theyve got wrong here. I think boards are allowed to make stupid decisions as long as proved by the shareholders, which they largely have been here. And I agree with you, I think ultimately, hands of getting his money.

we'll be right back after the break for our conversation with Michael sailor. If you're enjoying the show so far, hit, follow and leave us a review on profit markets.

So perfect to show comes from z biotics. Nothing like cocktails with friends to help you unwind. But now you don't have to choose between a great night or a great day after.

thanks. Pro biotic IT was invented by PH scientists to tackle rough mornings after drinking. And according to the biotics, here's how IT works when you drink.

Alcoa gets converted into a toxic by product in the guy. It's this by product, not dehydration, that's to blame for a rough next day. Cohl produces an ending to break this by product down.

Just remember to take the biotics before your first drink of the night. Drink responsibly and you'll feel your best tomorrow. So I tried this because daddy loves to drink. Took this thing. I had two, maybe three, drinks, and the next day I did feel fine.

And I think the key here is that i'm no longer dra three, but also also likes helping flash and get fifteen percent off your first order order when you use property and check out z biotics is back with a hundred percent money back guarantees. So you're unsatisfied reason money again that z oxx flash and use the check out for fifteen percent off. Fox creative, this is advertiser content from zl.

When you picture an online scammer, what do you see for the longer time we have these images of somebody sitting, crouched over their computer with a hoody on, just kind of typing away in the middle the night? And honestly, that's not what IT is anymore. That's E N mitchill, a banker turned fraud fighter.

These days, online scams look more like crime sync ates than individual can artists, and they're making bank. Last year, scammer made off with more than ten billion dollars. It's my blowing to see the kind of infrastructure has been built to facilitate scamming at scale.

There are hundreds of, not thousands of scm centres all around the world. These are very savy business people. These are organized criminal rings.

And so once we understand the the magnitude of this problem, we can protect people Better. One chAllenge that fraud fighters like ean face is that scan victims sometimes feel too ashamed to discuss what happened to them. But I, ian, says, one of our best defenses is simple. We need to talk to each other.

We need to have those awwad conversations around what do you do if you have text messages you don't recognize? What do you do if you start getting descended? Information that's more sensitive.

Even my own father fell victim to a that could this a smaller dollar sand? But he fell victim. And we have these conversations all the time. So we are all all at risk, and we all need to work together to protect each other.

Learn more about how to protect yourself at box dot com slash, and when using digital payment platforms, remember to only send money to people you know and trust. Hi, i'm Peter kafka, the host of channels of podcasting, m media and tech where they intersect. I've got a question for you.

Did you ever think about quitting your journalism job, getting together with the few your friends and launching your own media company when we get to make the stuff you want to make and not have to know about managers and investors getting in between because you don't have any other people? Well, that is what Jason kablan and three other veterans of vice media did when they started four or four media and twenty three, and today they're one. Really, that's right. It's a media success story in twenty twenty four, Jason explains our four or four started working and where they might take this model next. That's this week on channels.

Welcome back. Here is a conversation with Michael sailor, the founder and executive chairman of microstrip, gy. Michael, thank you so much for joining us. Some property markets.

Yeah.

happy to be here.

You've been everywhere recently. I mean, you're all over my news feed and I just I just want to give sort of the Michael sailor story in twenty twenty four very quickly. So you are the fountain in of microstrip gy, which was originally a business intelligence firm.

But over the past few years, you've shifted IT IT into this bitcoin treasury company. So microstrip gy now owns nearly forty billion dollars worth of bitcoin, has roughly two percent of the total global bitcoin supply, and IT also makes microstrip gy the largest corporate holder of bitcoin in the world. And in the past year, as bitcoins Price has risen, so too has microstrip es.

So microstrip stock is up six hundred percent over the past year. It's just remarkable. So i'll start with this and we'll get into IT. But what has drawn you to bitcoin, Michael, and what was sort of the impetus for this very radical pivot at microstrip gy towards bitcoin, I think in the .

middle of a two thousand and the summer of two thousand, and what drew us the big coin, was desperation and frustration. So initially we had five hundred million in cash. IT was worthless, like I was generating zero percent interest. The company wasn't growing. We were on lockdowns competing against microsoft.

So you know the only thing that we had in our world that was a bright spot was we had five other in cash we thought maybe was worth something, but when done well said its worthless for the next four years we lost that, you know. So we had to do something. Our initial in our foreign bitcoin was defensive just as frustration defenses, either that or sell the company.

So if you if you're not going to sell the company, you can die slowly, you can die quickly or you can do a transformation acquisition, you can take a risk. And that was our transformational acquisition. What if you could buy a five hundred million dollar growing sixty percent of a year, which looks like its own degre monopoly, and you could bolt IT on to a company that's growing, not know, zero to five percent a year that's not a monopoly.

So we did that then bitcoin surge. And we could opportunities, ally, uh, raise money via the convertible bond market. And we raise ed, six hundred fifty million at seventy five basis points.

And then we raised a billion page error and cup on at that point. I would say that stage is opportunistic, like someone wants to give you billions of dollars of free money to actually invest in your business. Why wouldn't you? We got on the roller coaster and went up and down.

IT surge, the crash, IT surge, the crash and uh I think by the beginning of twenty twenty four, IT became uh, strategic and we realized like hey, we're just doing this because we've got an Operating company and we can do IT. And between twenty twenty one and twenty twenty four, we but raised about ten billion dollars of capital. So we start with five hundred million.

We raise in another nine and a half to ten billion more. And now and and now the question is what what's going to happen with cyp to and what's gona happen with big coin? You got the etf approved in january, I mean twenty twenty four like year zero of institutional adoption.

So the etf are approved in january. The abbot wrote us off and said, what microstrip gic is unnecessary. Now what I didn't realizes, the etf are like overnight deposits like you put money into black rock, but you can take you out of black rock the next day microstrip.

Gy, that's forty billion. That's our money. That's permanent. You're not you can't take that out. We have forty build a permanent capital. And so what we realized our real great strategic um our strategic franchise here is we can securitize bitcoin so I can issue fix the income instruments bonds, especially bonds and fixed income preferred stocks or or high volatility equity and those are all products. The capital market.

Once they want big coin back securities, they either want three x to trade or they want one third of the risk and one third of the volatility to hold in a portfolio. So we we announce october thirty years, uh, that we were gonna basically raise twenty one billion of the and dead, and that was well received by our shareholders. We just kind of said we're gona we're going to be the leader in the industry if you want to invest in a company like ours, where the company and then a week later, we just had a red sweep in november.

Faith was was proscriptive congress, procyta senate, procreate to White house. Bitcoin surged, our stocks surged. And and I guess I ball IT down to IT took us four years to get ten billion. But by IT, IT took me thirty years to get five hundred million IT took me four years to get the next ten billion IT took us four weeks to raise thirteen billion more and uh, and that's because the product your selling is capital. I mean, you're a security.

If, if, if a rich person looks at the iphone, how many do you want? one? You want one tesla, one iphone, but if I offer you a security that gives you twice the performance of the S N P, how many of them do you want, like all until you hit your risk?

Il, so so now I would say where biton treasury company right are our Operation is we take crude cypher capital, bitcoin this commodity, and then we saw you, uh, an equity which is like two x for two x bitcoin. And then we get to two acts by actually selling bonds and selling fixed income instruments that are half x or or half of what we're doing. And we strip the performance in the risk of the bottom of capital structure.

We put IT onto the top. And that way, all the all the degenerate traders get what they want and all of the risk adverse investors get what they want, right? And we're just the institutional gateway sitting in the middle.

IT sounds like the way that you're describing this stock now I mean, mind strategy was A A software company. The way you have described that IT sounds like microstrip gy is a financial product in the way that you describe that you are securitizing bitcoin, which I would assume you you see as maybe a commodity um but IT sounds like the business that microstrip gy is in now is IT is selling a financial .

product where a treasury where a treasury company like where we're not a retail bank, we don't have retail deposits. What we do is we issue securities. We borrow billions of dollars from the bond market at zero percent interest, and we're lend IT to the crypt l economy at sixty percent interest.

You see, I bought, I raise money. I I raise billions by issuing equity to the equity capital markets and I invested in bitcoin. And the difference the difference between them is a spread um you know I show a billion dollars of equality.

I'm capturing a sixty five percent spread. We make six hundred fifty million dollars on the arbitration in one day, in one day. And then when I do, the bond market is in eighty percent spread.

So what we're doing is we're taking cheap capital from the traditional capital markets, of which there's three hundred trying of IT, right? There's a lot of money and capital markets were bottling that capital into the Crystal economy, into the decentralized economy. It's like i'm lending IT to the nation of bitcoin, but there's no counterparty, right? Because there's no company, there's no individual, but i'm getting back sixty percent return each year. And so as long as I can borrow the money for less, if you can borrow money for less than the S N P return, and if you can loan IT out for more than the S N P return, you can rent and repeat that trade out in fan item because there's infinite money. There's getting less than the S M P that wants more.

A lot of that is predicated on the fact that you are borrowing money at zero percent interest, which is very unusual. Um could you take us through for our listening how that is possible?

Okay, here's the big idea. Um the S N P volatility is the vicks. It's about fifteen. The return of the S N P for the past four years is about fifteen percent annually.

So think of the the cost of capital for every traditional investor is fifteen, fifteen, fifteen wall, fifteen A R bitcoin is sixty a or sixty wall four times of the vicks, four times the S P. It's been that way for a decade. It's been that way for the past four years.

okay. If you're a convertible arbitrage, there is a entire convertible bond market. What they do is they buy your bond and they sell your equity and they extract the premium for that.

There's a three or forty billion dollar market that does that for that trade to work. They need your all to be forty five or more. So you need to be three or four X, S, M, P.

And of course, microstrip gies got of all of one hundred to one hundred and fifty. And that's because we'd never a bitcoin, which is of all of sixty. So if I take sixty and I double IT on one hundred.

And so we have extremely high volatility. What else you need liquidity? What else do you need? The ability? right? Game stops interesting, but is not durable.

You see, sometimes there are meme stocks that are very liquid and volunteer, but only for a week. What if I could get? Volatility is like fire. I'm starting a fire and burning the fire for a long time.

So the way we borrow money for zero is we're selling a convertible bond and and the computed interest rate, the bond, of course, is not zero. The arbitrators are getting twenty, thirty, forty percent risk free. Yes, they're bedding nothing in getting.

I mean, they might buy a fifty million dollar a bomb, make ten million dollars in a few minutes risk free. Why wouldn't you like? So we're tapping that market because we have a volunteer ID stock this transparent.

But and IT doesn't require uh, IT doesn't require zero coupon for this to work. We barred money at six percent. If you borrow money at six percent and invested sixty percent, you're still scraping ninety percent of the gate.

I'm still making fifty four percent yield on whatever I barrow. So IT works at six percent IT works at twelve percent IT works at fifteen percent. IT just happens that a very easy pull of capital is convertible bond capital, where you can borrow the money at zero and you can do IT in size.

Can I make one more point, which are bonds to the are the most lucas bond sold in the last decade, right? And the bonds all doubled and tripled. Um no one ever triples their money on a bond Normal. But the other point is.

If a conventional company borrows a billion dollars in the convertible bond market and they go and buy a bill and they build a building or they invest in a product or they fight in Operation, it's a five year investment cycle and and it's not clear how will turn out. So after five years of developing a billion ago that you go back to the capo market, borrow, another five years goes by. But what we're doing is building a digital building.

I borrow a billion dollars, I buy bitcoin. I announced two days later, it's immediately profitable because i'm generating a yield to my common stock shareholders. So imagine I could borrow a billion, build a digital building in five days, announced that I made money on IT and borrow another billion.

I can do that every week. And that's exactly what's happening in this market. We're basically accelerating the investment cycle from um from five years to one week.

Bitcoin is the unique radical actor here because bitcoin is the first product is an commodity that's a legal definition and asset without initial and it's economically a scarcity that is a common sense definition. It's a commodity that equally make twenty one million up for the next billion years. So there is no legal commodity is also a scarcity other than bitcoin.

And if you don't have a commodity that's a scarcity, you can't do this with a hundred percent of your capital and a public company yet like you can't do this with a security like I couldn't do this trade with a video stock even as a great company in video stock is a security. So I could never own a hundred percent of my liquid capital or having invested in video. So if you wanted to do this before a bitcoin, you had to do with gold, soybeans, oil or real estate.

And they all underperform the S. M P. And they all have less volt in the S. M P. So if your hurdle rate is fifteen fifteen and you are showing me real estate, which is ten ten, the trade doesn't work.

And so what we're doing is totally rational and simple is the simple thing image able, if you accept the premise that bitcoin is a real asset, that IT is a commodity and then it's twenty one million, right? And want you once you get that idea, everything else follows naturally. And until you get that idea, you just think it's crazy magic.

So Michael, so was good to see. And I shouldn't out the first time we had you on the pod, you off, mike said Scott, put some your assets in the trust and I think bitcoin was like eight thousand box h my um so if if I understand this correctly, it's sort of this incredibly deft capital markets arbitrage or you're able to issue zero coupon bonds where no no cash, believe your baLance sheet, you don't have to pay interest on this.

So you get to borrow money not for free but cash flow for you. No cash flow comes off your baLance. tried. And because of big wins, acceleration and the value you talked about, you able to issue to convert the Price that the the bonds convert out at a fairly high Price.

So you have essentially are engaging in this kind of arbitrage where people think your company as the credibility in the space. You have the ability to borrow against this, but there has to be underlying cash lows to support the claim that those bondholders might have should bitcoin go decline substances in Price. So is that security built on just a pure belief in bitcoin? Or are the cat erline cash flows from your core business important to that?

The performance of the underlying asset is such that the bonds never get paid back other than they just get they get advertised. And if you look my situation right now, i've about forty billion dollars of bitcoin, i've about seven billion dollars of bonds, four point two of them are already equity. I mean, they are already effectively equity because they're trading not just above the strike Price.

They're trading above the call Price, which is one hundred and thirty percent of strike Price. So we could you know generally some time in the future just call them all for equity and equalize them all. So there's about three billion dollars of a convertible bond on a forty billion dollar structure, which is zero coupon, which there is some theoretical risk that there might be more deluded than a the minimum strike.

But the other point to make is these are no recourse, unsecured notes, there's no lean, there's no claim, there's no eba dark convenance. I think we paid like thirty thirty million, thirty to thirty five million and interest on seven billion and debt, Scott, a year. But I don't even have to generate the cash flow for the thirty million I could actually sell equity in order to pay thirty million.

And we have we have raised ten point five. We've been generating a billion dollars of equity a week. I mean, a billion dollars in common equity a week.

So the real magic of this is you need an asset which is gonna perform the S M P. That's also GTA stay more voltige than the S M P. And then you need a company, a public company that's one hundred percent bitcoin. And when you sell securities back by bitcoin, you need to buy the bitcoin with IT. And and because you're actually feeding back the capital back into the system is like a triple amplifier because it's driving up your assets, it's driving up your volatility and is driving up the Price of bitcoin.

My understanding is not thing is history return and i'm just trying to pay out dome or a downside scenario here. Bitcoin, as you references, is highly volatile. Year ago was seventy percent lower than IT is now five years ago was ninety ninety five percent lower.

Volatility means to goes way up and goes way down. Bitcoin goes to five thousand dollars. And the underlying value of your big coin holdings no longer represents the claim or the assets of one.

Your stock goes way down IT IT is way below the strike. You have to issue massive amounts of delusive share Price. The stock crashes into not able to issue more debt. Isn't the downside scenario? There may be more upside here.

but there is that what best way risk that you're accepting is bitcoin extinction risk. Like if if bitcoin goes to zero tomorrow, the entire business is a bitcoin extinction risk. So if you think there is A X percent chance of bitcoin extinction, then probably you don't put one hundred percent of your porfolio into my stock or into my bond, right?

But what if it's ten thousand? What if he goes to ten thousand? What happened? Yeah, sure. Your bankers to model this out.

The answer is bitcoin goes to ten thousand. The bonds are going to pay off at par. You know you might not get three extra money on the bonds, but you going to get your money back because the company has enough assets and enough equity that will just acquired ze the bonds and it'll be deluded to the comment stock.

So the business intelligence side of the business creates enough cash flow to support the bonds. Even a big coin declined drag.

Now the point is you don't need cash. The bonds are free. I mean, don't need cash for to pay the interest.

If you're talking about the principle, the principle of the bonds converts to equity, right? You're basically paying out equity. So the risk, the risk, if you assume bitcoin goes down percent, is to the equity. Is the M S, T R right there. The ones are taking the risk the bonds are going to pay off. And so look, got the point is if you've got if you ve put a hundred percent of all your wealth into our bonds or you know or or into our equity and a bitcoin goes to zero, then you will lose .

money and you're not suggesting anyone does that.

And then if if you ask the question, well, how does microstrip gy located? My answer is i'm selling the volatility. So for example, if if I sell a billion dollar bond, i'm capturing an eighty percent spread up front.

So i'm making eight hundred million dollars in bitcoin. A bitch coin crashes by eighty percent. Then I I was neutral, right? So a bitcoin went to twenty thousand tomorrow.

You could say, huh? You know, you didn't make any money on that, but a bitcoin doesn't crash eighty percent. I made eight hundred million.

Now a bitcoin goes down twenty or thirty or forty percent bitcoins void. My stock is twice as volatile. I'm going to refinance IT and sell the volatility.

And the theoretical value of having a billion dollars of water asset is like a hundred million a year like like for example, all I have to do is hold the billion dollars and then sell the wall. And we probably make another five hundred million to a billion dollars. Even a bitcoin doesn't go up even if IT goes down.

So right? So so it's it's a no brainer for us as a corporation because we're getting the float and we're getting the volatility and then we can equalize or refinance the volatility between now and when IT comes. Do if you want me to say what's the doomed scenario? Well, it's, it's it's the same scenario you have, Scott, which is if you walk out your door and you get hit by a truck or a media, you're dead.

So IT is possible. You could get hit by a media, right? And then you're dead.

And IT is possible for extinction level event to happen, a bitcoin, a media. And if IT does, everything is definitely, uh, levered to that. But if that happens, that needs to happen quickly, immediately. Like for example, a bitcoin.

A bitcoin, uh, goes to zero tomorrow, forever with that incontrovertible ly, right? That's not good for our business. But a bitcoin simply trades downing and states volatile IT becomes cutting half and state.

Well, there's a lot of people that will want to buy microstrip gy stock and microstrip gy bonds and they want to buy IT become fifty thousand. There will be a massive demand for people for a convertible bond struck at fifty thousand, for people arrived the upside and avoid the downside of that. We would sell that one. So our business kind of works, uh, no matter what happens, as long as bitcoin continues to be interesting, volatile, eagerly.

这位。

Welcome a small ball with me, kandy beaching the aba season is here and all be with you break IT down the games, the players and the drama. Every jb T A year o step on the the league is Better. Every been in this OK see live up to the hype with the nuggets.

Ts proved the last year was a fluke with the novo nix and car ethic towns break another trophy to new york. Ths approved to be the most piece for the next or with the out to be the first team repeat this champs since the warriors back into eighteen, big at the warriors. Don't worry, this show isn't your typical warriors lagers and nick salt box.

That's why i'll be talking about your team. The rockets, impressive Young core segmental s chances to surprise at the top of the west is inDiana a sleeping in the east? And of course, all the chaos that is my chicago boss.

I get all and bring some experts, players and coaches along the way. Ball can be some ears every friday on youtube. And whatever you get your.

With back with property markets, my eyes want to rewind to something you said earlier. You said, you know, it's it's great for us if the Price of bitcoin goes up. But the thing that more importantly, sad is that this all a hinges on bitcoin remaining interesting, the idea that people are interested by this asset and wanna be exposed to IT in some way.

And I think that is the statement that I I understand your position on. But I I don't i'm not fully brought in because I think that, that statement is quite a speculative statement to say, you know, with the level of conviction that you have that this asset will remain interesting and then to build this giant trade off of that process. And I think that that's what some people would have would take issue is like, well, why is this thing going to remain interesting? You know why what we can talk about the volatility, we can talk about the financial dynamics and and the technicals of bitcoin. But why do I care about bitcoin? What's what's actually interesting about other than the Price going up?

It's a good question, but I I actually think that if you want to spend a few hours studying at our researching that you'll find that IT is the most interesting thing in the world. I mean, I do not even think I don't even think it's debated. I don't think there is a second most interesting thing, the most interesting financial asset, the most interesting asia in the world, but by far. So why is so interesting to you .

personally from a persons level when you relearned was in the more .

important question, why is interesting to everybody else on the earth? right? There's six hundred fifty million crp to people.

It's the center of the of six hundred fifty million crypto people. There's fifteen hundred crept al exchanges. You can trade IT on any company on earth, can trade with any other company with bittorrent. It's the on on saturday afternoon.

If you wanted a billion dollars of credit, it's the only place to get a billion dollars of credit if you wanted to, if you wanted to pan excel or take a billion or short position because of the israeli missile crisis, it's the only thing you can sell a billion dollars of on sunday morning if you want to reverse the trade is the only way to reverse the trade, right? And video is not trading on saturday. I mean, think about the byway bit in is the seventh biggest asset in the world by market capitular roon.

But think about the ones above IT microsoft up right a in video. These these are not these are not useful or interesting to most of the world. No chinese companies going to capitalize on a video stock goals at the top. You can't move ten billion dollars a gold for new york to a tokyo or short IT or go long. So literally what I do is turning around you and say, if you don't think it's the most interesting, tell me what asset in the world is more interesting right now to more people because I don't think you can name one.

I I think I I think I think it's interesting because of all of the conversations that it's Sparked in the way that it's become very political and it's IT IT really brings out the emotions of of everyone involved, the positive or negative. But the things that you mention there about why it's interesting, like again, a lot of IT has to do. I mean, you mention the fact that IT trades on weekends, which which other assets don't, but the idea that .

IT is add to come on. First of all, the number one performing stock in the S N P five hundred mine, we're up thirty acts that three times more than a video that interesting. How about the number one options market in the S P five hundred mine? We have the most intense options like a hundred and thirty percent of market cap, the most profitable convertible bond, the number one convertible bonds in the marketplace microstrip gies.

right? It's interesting because people are making money off of IT. Everybody in the two trillion dollars of market cap of wealth has been created in forty eight months for hundreds of millions of people, is changing every minute of the day.

But in that sense, isn't what's interesting that the Price is going up because you said, you know, it's nice when the Price goes up. But also hearing is the interesting part is the Price going up. The fact that IT has become such a valuable asset class. And I guess my point would be if there comes a time when the Price starts going down, suddenly, it's not so interesting anymore. And then I feel that I could all all of that fire that you described can sound of a lot more quickly.

By the way, I was pretty interesting when I went down to it's I give you the cyp to winner. It's it's interesting because it's useful. It's useful because it's the hardest money in the history of the human race, right? It's interesting and useful because IT represents property rights and monetary security or economic security for eight billion people.

That's it's interesting in the same way the electricity and clean water and steel and airplanes and fire and nuclear power are interesting because it's the single biggest way to improve your your um uh quality of life, right? And otherwise it's interesting because IT is a global real time. It's it's changing all the time, every second.

It's literally changing. Now think about, think about all the other financial assets. Conventional wisdom says I create diversified portfolios of bundles of twenty years, century, things like a hundred and eighty seven real estate apartments, or a bundle preferred stocks, or a bundle of corporate bonds.

They have no volatility because they are engineered literally to be uninteresting. They're literally engineered. So there on saturday afternoon, there is nothing that could happen that would change their value to you.

So you see the the fact that bitcoin is engineered so that IT does change value. Someone is doing something that's actually what creates all the volatility. The but but let me make one more point.

Do you know the call rate if you if you hold a dollar or hold a million dollars and you're one in to hold for thirty days, you're getting sofa. The thirty days soft. R, R.

You're getting about four point eight percent interest. If you actually hold a million dollars of the ascp index and you sell the call three days out at the market, you're getting like fifteen percent interest. If you're holding a million dollars of bitcoin I bit and you sell the thirty day call, you're getting a hundred percent interest.

And when you're holding a million of microstrip gy and you sell the call, you're getting two hundred twenty percent interest. So when I say interesting, i'm using the classic sense, people are financially invested in IT. And therefore, when IT changes, there's hundreds of millions of people that also sudden feel IT up or down.

I'm also pointing out you can literally generate more interest on this thing. And so and there are more ways to actually make money on IT. And that's why the tickers on C N B C, the C N B C, is not showing you things that aren't interesting.

They are not showing you the soybean Price every day. They're not showing you they're not going to shows you the Price of a diversified portfolio of real estate assets that are that are maturely and scientific constructed because the construction of the portfolio was to make IT boring, and bitcoin is. And by when you make IT boring, you strip the performance out a bit.

And so the point is, let's come back to fire, volatilities fire. If you're enormity, you run away from fire. If you're Henry ford, you put the fire into an engine, you put IT in a horseless carriage, and you create an automobile ile.

And now people can go, and then you put IT into a plain and that good. So engineers are putting wallet. You know, you're a nuclear reactor in the spaceship.

It's scary in the submarine. But bitcoin is is like the financial fuel. These things are crypt of reactors. It's a technically Better way to do this, and it's the volatility that actually the motor that's driving the portfolio or the treasury forward. If you are advising .

administration, as first I know you are, there's attention between. So trumps threatening the brick nation saying if you d dollar ize and the dollar is no longer the default rendering, i'm been raised terrorist. S, because there is an advantage of being the reserve currency.

We control fifty eight percent of reserves in the dollar. We get to see flows. We get to have more teeth and our sanctions. And a big one goes to a million dollars, twenty one trillion dollar asset class. It's hard for me to see how IT wouldn't at least bring reserve currency a percentage from the dollar weight down. How would you be advising the government to think about the advantages of dollars, reserve currency versus big when increasing in value and subsequently playing a larger role and perhaps replacing the dollar as a reserve currency?

There are some simple, straight forward things that are good for the united states and probably good for the world to, first of all, just to observe that money decomposes into currency. And capital currency is the medium of exchange that we use to Price everything in the world. The U.

S. Dollar is definitely the reserve currency. Um the U. S.

Dollars also used as reserve capital, but in the form of treasury bills. Bitcoin is capital. Bitcoin is not currency.

Gold has been used as capital is not currency anymore. Uh the very simple thing that the U. S.

To do is they got to sell the gold and buy bitcoin with IT. And by twenty percent of the bitcoin network is very simple, just swapped the goal for bitcoin. If anybody actually swap out their treasury bills for bitch coin, then the U.

S. Is going to owe at all. It's kind of like just getting a lash or the Louis and a purchase for free.

They they could pretty much have twenty percent of the network for free overnight, just with a swap. They could even print the money, you know, yeah, I mean, they they could buy IT for next to nothing. The only alternative to the treasury bill for anybody is bitcoin.

And so just by do that, and bitcoin becomes the world reserve ital network. And the U. S.

Will own both sides of the equation and that alone the currency and the capital. But the second observation is the U. S.

Auto standardize stable coin legislation and let people issue digital currency backed by, uh, U. S. Treasuries like tether, like a circle.

If the united states created a digital framework and they just let corporations in banks issue digital currency, and you to say if you wanted issue digital currency, you have to back at with U S, dollar equivalents, what which means? Tea bills, right? And N, A, U S.

custodian. If they did that, the the the digital currency market would grow from one hundred and fifty billion to ten trillion and that would create ten trillion dollars worth of demand for us um us treasury assets. What will happen? This will collapse every other currency in the word Scott will collapse the robot, the CNY, everything in south america, everything in africa, even the euro.

Uh, ninety nine of the demand for stable coin is in europe. Is the dollar not the euro? So if the U. S.

Really wants to make sure that the dollar remains the reserve currency, the real crippling defect right now is is hot, is, is it's not easy to send digital dollars at the speed of light on a mobile phone. And people wanted do IT. So they ought to actually Normalize that.

And if if they want to make sure that that the united states owns the capital of the world, they just thought to buy twenty percent or thirty percent of bitcoin theyll have at all. And then when the chinese and the russians dump all their real estate and all their gold, and if they dumped their treasury bills or whatever they dump p theyll. Buy bitcoin, the Price of bitcoin to go to the roof. The us.

Will make eighty three in doors. So just wrap up. Po mo, I want activity to something A A A little bit more existence, al, or personal, i've known you for the Better part of twenty years were about the exact image.

What's left for you? You're obviously economically secure. You've obviously built a company that's for formed, as you said, best performing stock in the s MPI.

In five years or ten years from now, you look back and think, OK, that's the box. I wanted to check that I hadn't checked what's left for you. What are you hoping to accomplish over the next decade?

When you know, Scott, when I in twenty twenty hours very frustrated and a bit depressed, I don't think I was along. A lot of people are frustrating and depressed during that time period.

And um I was you know my company was were six hundred million dollars enterprise value and i'd work thirty years and I could not breakthrough against the microsoft you know you know jog or not and I couldn't figure how to grow IT and and after ten years of trying, I figured maybe I should just retire and go Gracefully off and just and call IT a day and I think as I said, I discovered bitcoin at a frustration and desperation. And first I was just something to do and then realized IT was a good technology. I I went from, i'll buy IT because I don't have a choice to do anything else to.

I'm an investor. And I started thinking, bitcoin is like facebook for money, or it's like, it's like a dominant digital monetary network. And I started becoming a tech believer on IT.

But then I emerge as a maximum st. Scott, which is, yeah, you wrote your book about the four. And at the end of the book, you know you basically a liba j ated.

You're like these guys got too much power and abuse their power, and the world's not a Better place for that. That's because your companies and if bitcoin was a company, if IT was a big digital banking network, IT probably also gets corrupted. What I realized is bitcoin is a decentralized protocol, is a commodity.

It's ethically superior to a company. It's ethically superior to these big tech companies, because IT represents A A protocol of economic and powermat for eight billion people on everybody on earth, regardless of your views. And so I basically went from opportunity st to investor to maximum st.

And now i'm of the opinion that um the human race moves forward through clean energy, clean food, clean money and and human misery was our water was dirty. Our food was dirty. We didn't have energy.

We are dirty cloth. We are doctors with dirty hands and dirty instruments and the alike. And we are dirty money.

And for the last five hundred thousand years, all of our economics have been broken and their human misery has taken place because copper tokens and giant stone coins and glass beds and silver coins and gold, none of these things were perfect capital assets. They were never, they were never a settlement network and and they were never a non deflationary. I said bitcoin represents clean money.

IT represents, uh, economic energy and economic empowerment. So my mission at this point is I would just like to spread IT to eight billion people. I actually think you can.

Bitcoin is hope. I think you can fix the company, fix the country, fix the family. IT won't solve the other problems. IT doesn't care cancer and IT doesn't make you a good basketball player and IT doesn't IT doesn't, uh you know, resolve political differences and religious differences.

I get that what IT does is IT gives people a working economic fluid that doesn't drain ten percent of their economic energy per year out, you know, out the back door. And so i'm a big advocate for digital capital in the same way that uh hundred fifty years ago, maybe I could get really excited about spreading electricity to the world. But i'm you know if you found fire, you would want people to know about fire.

And, you know, Henry, for, as I said, he put, he put the fire in the engine and he gave us wings. He let us fly. And and so the world's a Better place with the automobile bill, or the plane, or lumina, or steel, or computers, or A I or whatever IT is.

I just think the world's a Better place with digital capital or or clean store of value money. You could say that it's a um a fair and equable way for us to settle our differences and and there's shocked. Nice about that.

Michael sailor S A, found an executive chair of microstrip gy, a publicly traded business intelligence firm, and holder, a big line, is also the founder of alarm, a com named investor on forty plus patterns and author of the book the mobile way if he founded the sailor academy, a nonprofit that is provided free education, more than two million students. He olds dual degrees from IT.

In our space engineering, in history of science, i've known for twenty years, Michael, one of the things I think this space is unfortunately suffered from as a lack of, like I don't know, thoughtful, nice people and whether people disagree with you or not. On this specific asic class, I ve only for twenty years you've never not been willing to me with me, provide me advice. People don't know this about you.

You are a nice, generous person. And that's good for the asset class because I think it's lack that. Really appreciate your time and congrats on your success.

Yeah, thanks for having me always would like to talk.

So I really think what you I think you got I think you got worried a little .

bit that we are getting a bit to, uh, combative the no.

maybe just because I appreciate, I appreciate you wanted to keep a real and push back. I have a bias towards Michael because I know him personally. I'd like him.

He's he's a generally a good, decent man and the thing I like about what he's bringing to this conversation, you know he's definite cheer later. There's definitely like rather there. But at the same time, he will also say he's not going to tell anyone to put all their money in this. He doesn't tell them to do that. He tells them to be a little bit more measure.

People mortgage that houses and use money to buy back on. There's that. I like him for a lotteries that's not one of them ah .

well let let me go to the optimistic tone. A um if you compare him against the other figures in in this asset class, one he's not in jail and two he doesn't go on twitter and start insulting and attacking people who don't support narrative. And early in my business career, not early early in my reinvention in my business career, I would go down his place and I would outline my business and he would like like a fucking A I before A, I go. These are the three problems in your businesses, is what you should focus on, do on, have lunch now, he would summarize my business in about thirty second. Tell me what I should be doing.

Like I, I, I really enjoy that conversation with him, and I do respect him. I don't think that he gave me a great answer to the value of big coin and what makes IT interesting beyond the fact that the Price goes up.

I share a lot of your skepticism about the asset class. It's always made me, quite Frankly, just was made me uncomfortable. I've never been able to wrap my head around IT. I think there's a lot of negative externalities to a currency that doesn't I mean, there's positive actualities about the government overside or a lot about um not being able to track its flows and bad actors that might be able to transact. Um I mean.

I guess, yeah, if the U S. Lost its ability to do that, we would be so fucked in so many ways we can imagine.

So I like you. I share, I share some that captures m uh, the reason the reason I really respect Michael is that if the institutional market is said, this guys fucked and crazy and fled the stock and the star crash and he'd been fired, he would have gone down, is like this cautionary CEO tae right? Did what happens when your CEO loses their shit, literally? And four hundred ninety nine, I think of the S M P. Five hundred ceos, maybe four ninety eight, if you include mask, would take that kind of risk reputational ally. And he took IT yeah he .

he certainly as balls are still and he's certainly as you mention, he loves risk and he loves volatility. I mean, we spent the first twenty minutes talking about how the most volatile asset loss in the world is bitcoin. And that's what makes IT so great. I mean, his fires.

you can either run from IT ever put IT in a car? That was good. That was good. I'm going to use that.

It's great. I was good. I just I can see you know he's a mav, rick, and he's addicted to that. And he as you said, he he said he was depressed and didn't know what to do when his company was stuck at evaluation of six hundred million dollars.

I am stuck at six million.

What do I do? now? Have to do something.

And here I in this, here I am in the sad room where gets dark four thirty talk. But he was stocked.

So he ran into the entire eternal fire. That is bitcoin. Too many ending advice for a sout after all that.

I'm a big believer in diversification and and I you know I can see this going to a million. I can also see this going to a thousand. I think it's probably more likely that goes to a million in a thousand, but it's it's definitely legitimate after class.

Now I would just say if you're in the age authority, don't put more than, to my view, twenty or twenty five percent of you you know that worth than anyone to asset. And if you're over the age of know forty or forty five, don't put more than temper set and a lot of people are very wealthy. He will tell me that that's being lame and that, you know, bill ackman says that, you know, diversification is a lack of conviction.

My attitude is, uh, get verage slowly and when you get there, it's going to be very rewarding. And along the way, it's fun and IT has less harper n and anxiety. This ebit was produced .

by camilla and engineer by venture ament penser associated product results in vara in is rea associated drew bars is technical director and Kathy Dylan is our executive producer. Thank you for listen to process markets from the vote media podcasts network. If you like what you heard, give us a follow and join us very fresh taken markets on monday.