Jerrod Carmichael on Truth in Comedy, Coming Out Late & Religion
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I do a lot of comics, and so I'm very excited to have you. Who's been your favorite? Oh, don't do that to me. I'm competitive. Hi, everyone, from New York Magazine and the Vox Media Podcast Network. This is On with Kara Swisher, and I'm Kara Swisher. My guest today is Emmy Award-winning stand-up comedian, writer, and director Gerard Carmichael. Gerard has been making comedy for nearly 20 years. In 2014, his first stand-up special, Love at the Store, was directed by Spike Lee.

From 2015 to 2017, he wrote, produced, and starred in the NBC sitcom The Carmichael Show. He has executive produced, directed, and acted in TV and film, including the Oscar-winning romp Poor Things. And despite having mined his personal life for comedy for all of those years, his 2022 HBO special, Nathaniel, was full of secrets he hadn't revealed before. His family's and his own, including that he's gay.

It was stand-up as therapy, and it won him an Emmy. But Gerard didn't stop there. Last year, he came out with the Gerard Carmichael reality show, an eight-episode series documenting his attempts to come out to his friends, make peace with his father, and find common ground with his deeply religious Southern Baptist mother and her notions of heaven, hell, and unconditional love. It's also about trying to be in his first open relationship without falling back into those lies. It turns out to be harder than it looks.

Gerard's latest stand-up special, Don't Be Gay, came out last month, and I thought it was fantastic. He's really mining a lot of his personal things, but it's actually still funny. I like a storyteller more than anybody, more than stand-up that just goes for joke after joke. So he's incredibly thoughtful in the genre of a lot of comedians today who are doing a lot more than just television.

telling jokes. Our expert question today comes from another very thoughtful comedian whom I interviewed a few months ago, Michelle Buteau. So happy Pride to everyone and enjoy.

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I want to start with talking about your special, which I loved. It's a new HBO special called Don't Be Gay. I think it's your fourth or fifth? It's my fourth, yeah. Fourth of them, right. Just in time for Pride. Do you do Pride? I do Pride in my own way. Tell me why. I just don't like crowds. I don't want, I don't, like, there's no parades. Right, there's no parades. Parades are scary. Right, yeah. But I understand, here's the thing, I...

After coming out, I didn't come out until I was 30. And then after coming out, I have like Google alerts for myself, obviously. Obviously. And there's like all these, I'm on these lists in these countries. It's like basically like lists of gay celebrities. Oh, really? Like guess who's gay dot like.

We hate you dot net or whatever. And I understand pride because like I'm a terrified traveler. I will not go to your country unless you have a private rate. I don't want to participate in the private rate. Right. But you better show me a faggot with a shirt off on a float going down a busy street. Although there are countries that are not friendly to gays. It's still also like there's a lot of both.

Well, I need at least that. You need at least the pride parade. I won't flag, like show me that he can safely make it from one end of the street to the other. Is it the same thing with a state, like a state in the United States? Most of them have a pride parade. Yeah, yeah, I guess they have a pride parade. I mean, that's more a culinary thing, like places I don't visit. Right, that's true. I don't like parades either. The only thing I enjoy is every now and then a dike march is kind of cool because they're frightening.

Yeah, yeah. But it's for the show. I understand it for the show. A show of safety, a show of support. I totally understand that. Yeah, there was just an interesting interview with Richard Grinnell. You know, he works for Trump. He's running the Kennedy Center. He's their gay. Oh, he's their gay? He's their gay. They found a gay to like— They found a gay who hates himself. For the arts? Normal gays don't like pride parades. And I was like—

Normal gays do. Abnormal ones do. Well, normal gays don't program for Donald Trump. Right, that's exactly right. So let's talk about the special. You talked about being raised straight when you came out in Ruthanniel. And you talked about you kept part of your life secret. You said 30 years old. Yeah, yeah. I'm giving like a rough estimate. 30, that's late. Yeah. Especially in this day and age. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So why so late?

I was scared of my mom. It could probably be reduced to being that simple. Like when I came out, that was the biggest fear. It was also a change of perception. Something happens, I think, if you wait.

I think you can come out in like these windows. Like, I think like, you know, when you're really young or like college is a chance to form a new identity. So you can come out then. And then like, I kind of slipped into this thing where I moved to LA and I met all these new friends and close friends. And so now I've just been lying to the, for years and years and years. So it was like, I want to tell you something.

But I also don't want to tell you that I've been lying to you for this long. And then there's the religious fear, the fear of God's punishment, the fear of my mother as she represents God, all these things just compounded and made me wait. What were you fearful of with your mother? Judgment, like judgment not being the person that...

Like, my mother has the best idea. I'm trying to think of how to explain this. Like, I would love to be able to see myself as my mother sees me. She birthed a son that she prayed for, that she wanted, and...

He came and she has nothing but the best hopes and wishes and like has this beautiful idea. It's a really beautiful idea of like what her son is supposed to be and how he's supposed to be in the world. And I love most of it.

Like most of it, I'd love to accept. Successful, happy. Successful, happy. However, like being gay didn't align with that idea. And so I was afraid of shattering it, like both for her, for me, it was a... Was it explicit? Was gay explicit in the... Yeah, well, that kind of came with the Southern Baptist package, right? And they're more aggressive than ever today. Yeah. They're hoping to overturn gay marriage. The Baptists have said it.

explicitly than they had before. Yeah, that makes sense. I mean, it makes sense from their perspective. Like, of course. I was always like, they're just not going to stop. But one of the things that you did, though, is even though you came out then, you did drop breadcrumbs all over the place, it seems like, to me. Watching your stuff in 2015, you had your NBC sitcom, The Carmichael Show. The fourth episode was about a teenager coming out to you. First as gay, then as transgender. Your fictional parents at

In that show, Joe and Cynthia, same names as your real parents, by the way, handled the situation pretty well. So it was kind of like wishful. Yeah, it was like writing. How you'd like them to deal with it. Yeah, how you'd like the future to go. You also made references in your 2019 home videos. Talk about that. Were you consciously aware? I assume you were doing it on purpose. Yeah, well, home videos was like, that was my soft launch. Yeah.

Right. But it was I was so terrified. That was the whole reason I did it. I had just come out to my closest friends maybe a couple of weeks before that. Which they knew, right? Some knew. Some were gracious. Some like some were shocked. I got like a kind of. Oh, really? Yeah. Yeah. Like a range of reactions. I got a lot of no shit, Sherlock, but go ahead. I'm having a soft launch where I like I've like built up enough courage to tell my best friend. And then I do this thing where like.

It's like a real floodgate type of mentality where I'm like, okay, well, now I guess I need to tell everybody in the world, starting with my mom. And I made this documentary.

I went to North Carolina. A reality show. Before that, it was called Home Videos. Home Videos, right. And that was where, like, really it was all built around this moment in the living room where I was going to tell my mom. But I couldn't say I was gay. I couldn't. I think I was bi for like two weeks. Oh, okay, right. I think I like. Yeah, yeah. You know, I could go, no, no, I could go both ways. I could still have a wife. Yeah, yeah. Like, just like lying to myself or whatever. Yeah.

But I was so nervous. I was just on the couch. And my mom had just gone through a lot finding out about my father's, like, other family. So I was, like, having this heavy conversation with her. And, like, on top of that, I was like, and I hooked up with dudes before. It's like camera pants to her. She's my mom's.

My mom is cool, unfortunately. And just, like, actually, like, cool. Right, right. To the point of being cold. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And it's just like, that's your preference. Oh, yeah. Oh, that's a killer. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh, that's your preference. Ice. Yeah. That's what you want to do. That's what you want to do. Yeah. So not a screaming kind of thing. No, no. Yeah, I got a screamer. Really? Yeah. Which was easier, I suppose, in some fashion. I actually...

Like, I provoke arguments in my relationship because I think I associate, like, screaming with, like, truth. People usually aren't, like, screaming a lie. Right, right, right. Unless they're narcissists. Yeah, maybe. It's just a performance, right? So you—is it strange to look back at those moments when you look at them? Not strange. That was actually probably the beginning of—

Like, I can look back at those moments now knowing that I was doing the best that I possibly could. Mm-hmm. At the time. At the time. This is the best I could do at the time. This is as brave as I could be. This is the most I could say. And I can look back at it. Then what's difficult—

Is looking back at, like, even, like, old stand-up before coming out because I could see how much of it all was a performance. Right. Like, I could see— Do you remember a joke that was— Well, just all—I was doing, you know, just jokes about, like, really, like, aggressive—

Like tearing down marriage. A lot of that was with my because my parents and like seeing, you know, the lies and stuff that my father told. But but then also like a lie I was telling myself, like made me very cynical and skeptical about marriage as an institution. Well, it's all built on lies anyway. And that's also it's, you know, in your 20s and got all the answers. And like so for different reasons, it's hard for me to look at that.

time in my life with like pride and confidence. I can't, I wasn't recording any sets. I wasn't like posting anything online. Like I was a very, I was like a club comic just going up, performing my jokes, having this antagonistic exchange with the audience. And then I leave and go off to my own private life. Did that make you a less good comic when you weren't?

yourself. Some people think that if you're not your genuine self. That's kind of, yeah. I think for me, yes, I think I found something in the truth and found something in Revelation that was really necessary and not just cathartic, but necessary for the skill and the craft, like to be able to write uninhibitedly and to be able to like articulate a

full experience because I find that really rewarding. Things that I was hiding are actually what a lot of my act is about now. So for me, yes, I think there's some people who have built characters that are funny and it works and like, you know, like...

Sebastian Maniscalco doesn't need to have like some type of like deep revelation about his relationship with his father because like he's he's felt like a stage character that works like I think there's a lot Seinfeld or like people that have felt like a persona on stage that really that's different yeah but you used

the material from your life in the Gerard Carmichael reality show. People call it a Truman show-esque. It's more of a documentary. You had the camera team follow you around, capturing lots of hard coming out conversations with friends, your parents, and your relation with your current boyfriend, Mike. One of the scenes that I really liked was when you agreed to pray with your mother. You had a very strained smile on your face that's just heartbreaking. Talk

Talk a little bit about that moment and the religious issues and your relationship now. Because you're pulling her into it. Yeah, yeah. Well, so I invited her to New York. I come out, our relationship was strained. I invited her to New York. And it was a lot of, like, me. Go to therapy, family therapy with me. You know, listen to my perspective. And I tried so hard to, like, hammer it. And I was being really, really aggressive. And it was a moment where I was like, hey, what if I actually listen to—

What what do you want? Like, what is a solution that you feel comfortable with? Like I haven't I realized I wasn't listening to her. Like I've flown her to New York just to kind of like bully her into like my perspective. Right. Right. You will like me in my. Yeah, you will like me in my gay kingdom. Yeah. Yeah. But but I but I didn't listen to her. And so and I and I wanted to listen.

And she wanted to pray. She wanted to like actually pray and like have, and it's funny, it's a strange feeling because, you know, I've kind of taken this long route back to like understanding the necessity of like ritual, of prayer, of hope, faith. And I admire that about my mother. I admire her like very steadfast, unmovable faith. And I actually think, it's a practice. And I think that

like that part of a personality that I've gotten. And even just on a spiritual level, I think I've reaped benefits from that, right? Like this woman who like prayed for her son that's going thousands of miles away to Los Angeles. He knew nobody with a dream. And this belief that God did have, like was gonna bless a path of purpose in my life. Like these things, I can't just like take the good. Yeah, right, I'll take it.

Yeah. And so there's something really beautiful about that. And I have kind of found the necessity for that again in my life. I've been trying to rebuild God. Like I grew up Southern Baptist singing on the choir. You know, people thought I was going to be a minister, like saltines and grape juice having communion at home. Yeah.

Then, you know, moved out and got too smart for the religion and have kind of now in my 30s, like come back around to understanding the need for and especially I understand my mother's need for. Right, right. You know, like God is the only man in her life that wasn't lying to her. My mother is like her father and her husband and even I like as much as I've felt.

found myself trying to protect her was lying about, you know, like God's the only, the only man in her life that was... That sticks with it. Yeah. Do you think it's a need for spirituality on your behalf or a belief in Christianity, which...

Every now and then I wander past the church and want to go in. Yeah. And I don't. Something higher, something bigger, something bigger than yourself. And going back to potential, like seeing that in myself and seeing that in others, that takes practice to be able to look someone in the eyes and say, yeah.

look someone who may be having a frustrated moment and say like, no, you're bigger than this moment. Like you, to have a system in place that is grander. Do you use that system anymore? Given you grew up in it, it's hard to move away from practices. Yeah, yeah. I still, I find myself like,

singing and playing gospel on Sundays, not even realizing it's Sunday. It's just like finding myself like that's the music that moves me. I can cry listening to spiritual music. I definitely need it and I've accepted it. Again, I've let go of like being too smart. What do you mean you're too smart for it? Because I could break down like my spirituality in maybe like three steps. It's just like, okay, believe everything's good.

Step one. Step two. Hey, that's fucking stupid. Open your eyes. Look around. Right. And then step three is, yeah, but believe it anyway. I see. Yeah, that's fake. Like going. Yeah. Going past that, like that, that stuff I've read too much. I know too much to be. Things aren't all good. Yeah. There's a part of me that wants to believe that. But there's a part of me that wants to smother that. We'll be back in a minute.

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Watching Miley's show with all the home video footage of your childhood mixed in, you were using cameras from a young age. Yeah. Were you performing or what did you think about it? And did you see yourself in the third person as like the character in the play that is Gerard? I think so. I think like psychoanalysis would say, yes, that's what I was doing. I didn't know what I was doing, but I liked a show. I love it.

putting on a show. It was all a show. The church was one of my favorite shows and wrestling. Grew up watching WWE. I loved that show. And home was a show. Like in the performance of my parents' marriage, the performance of myself as the good son. It was all a show. So I loved when, like life seemed to make sense when we were putting on the show, when the camera's rolling.

or the curtains are drawn back. Now, actually, the show at least makes sense. It gives purpose to the show that I was already performing anyway. So, yeah, yeah, I do have a love for the camera. When you look back at those home videos, what do you think? Oh, yeah, I think I hear my voice and I go like, oh, you poor gay boy. You know, me too. Yeah, like I hear my voice and I hear the need to be

a good son to be an entertainer. You know, I see that. And I, and,

It's kind of a need to be seen, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Which is the thing that I was most terrified of. Right. So in reality show, you have an anonymous friend. People guessed it's fellow comedian Bo Burnham, who has directed a couple. I'll never tell. You'll never tell. Okay. And he kind of calls you on the bullshit of the idea of the show being reality and warns you, treating the camera like it's God, right? He was a stand-in for the criticism industry.

you think you're going to get, and you're taking the wind out of those sails. Talk about this anonymous character and how you were thinking of it in the narrative structure of that show. Like, you know, the Greek chorus. Yeah, sure. You know, foreboding and wise. Right. And plays that role in my actual life, so that made sense for the structure of the show. Right. You know, it's funny because... It's a real choice that you made there, you know, to have that. Yeah, yeah. Well, because...

it's interesting I'd come up like I said like came into my first references like Dick Cavett and all these like things I'd like come up thinking television and the cameras and all these things are like a miracle and you I learned to put on a show and I learned like a skill at a time when like a lot of my friends were like leaning into like all right well you gotta put your set on YouTube and you have

to be on, you know, Twitter and Dane Cook had just had a million followers on MySpace, you know, and that kind of thing. And like, everyone was leaning into that type of technology. I was still trying to develop like this

specific craft of, like, connecting with an audience, like, a live audience and, like, and even, and developing it. And television is a miracle. So, like, all right, you have to craft the show, like, this very well-written, well-crafted show. Mm-hmm.

And so I was developing this skill while it seemed like the world was going in a different direction. By the time I did reality show, I'd done the five camera NBC. Right, the NBC Carmichael show. And I'd written my parents' response and how it should be and the father knows best and we hug at the end of the episode. Like I'd written all of it. I'd done all of that. Like when it was time to do like the deal with HBO, I was like, well, I could write another. I could do that, but I've done that already.

And the world seems to be moving in this direction where it's like reality is like strange. Like everybody's got a camera and everybody's kind of got their own show and everyone's putting on a performance in their bedroom. And like the world is this now. So I was like, well, what if that's my show? What if I like kind of take...

Right. Everything I've learned up until this point and meet the world where it is. And just like, instead of like writing my mother's response to my coming out, because I was going to do the autobiographical comic thing that comics do. Right, which is, I told my mother I was going to do. Yeah, yeah. And so, but what if it's, what if instead of casting Loretta Devine this time, we get actual Cynthia Carmichael to come and have her response and we make that into the show. And a lot of the craft was in the editing and a lot of,

What I needed to be was just like open. What did she think of it? My mother? Yeah. My mother doesn't change for the camera. Right. So she thinks exactly what you see. That's another part of it. What does she think of you doing that?

She'd prefer if I not. But because she's unchanged, it's like, all right, if this is what you want to do, fine. You want me to say it again for the camera? If we were having a private conversation and then I said, hey, I'm going to bring in an entire crew and a camera. I'm going to mic you. Do you mind repeating that? She'd go,

Yeah, sure. I can say it again. She'd be more burdened by repeating herself than by the cameras coming into the room. But every episode we get a question from an outside expert. Yours is another modly hyphenate comedian I've interviewed, Michelle Buteau. Oh, hey, Michelle. I know. Let's go with that. As a creator, co-creator, starring in, executive producer, whether it is...

a sitcom or a stand-up special or a reality show, how do you find the line, like the fine line, the balance between giving too much of yourself or not enough? Do you feel it in the moment? Do you plan ahead about what you're going to share? Are there consequences with sharing your mind, body, soul, and spirit and stories with people? That's my question. Which she does, too. Yeah, no, for sure. I...

I don't really think about it, I don't think. It's, because there's two lines. It's like, I want to continue to, like, evolve and change and grow on all these words as a person. And I also want to be able to craft something entertaining. Sometimes it's like, I think those two things align and sometimes they may not. And, like, the reality show was just, and Rothaniel were, like, specials and pieces of art where those things align and that the

that I was the show. That was the show. There are times like my most recent special, Don't Be Gay, where it's like,

All those jokes and ideas aren't necessarily just me in that moment, but it's like a crafted idea. Right, in an edit. You think about it. Yeah, in an edit. Yeah, and it's all edited. So it is in some ways like sacrificing all of it for the art. Yeah, yeah, just like, yeah. Are there consequences? Do you feel consequences with doing that? Oh, for sure. For sure, for sure. Such as? Yeah, there are people in my life that are very angry about the cameras. There are also people...

I think there's consequences to just being truthful. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Right? Like, I remove every camera. Like, you go around, like, telling the truth. People are going to hate. Yeah. Yes, they do. Like, people are going to get really upset. They secretly like you. Yeah, yeah. Like, you talk about some of the consequences in your recent special, Don't Be Gay. It's more like a regular stand-up, right? Mm-hmm.

It's pretty sexually explicit. You talk about your open relationship. You talk about sex with strangers from Grindr. You talk about race and racial dynamics, how people reacted to your boyfriend who was white. You got a lot of vitriol on black Twitter after Reality Show came out, but you repeatedly say you're focused on homophobia, that you forgot about the racism, which is—which one shall we pick? Yeah, yeah.

Talk about the reactions to your specials in various communities. And does that play a role in your creative process? Yeah, my friend jokes and says that I'm at too many intersections. You are at too many intersections.

You know, like race and money and class and sexuality. Religion. Religion. I do feel like I'm like standing at two. Like the on-the-nose key art for any of my work could just be like a man with an umbrella at a intersection. So it is kind of a, for any reaction, there's like another side that disagrees with them. Like I don't, I wouldn't know where to...

of where to be pulled. You know, I want to make people happy. I really... That's a lie. I want people to be entertained because that's my job. That's correct. That's really what I want. I'm also now... I've been in the business long enough. I've seen...

the value or your value as an entertainer change. There was a time when there was a wall, right? Where the celebrity, the person, the personality was someone to be like, they put on makeup and they went on the show and you wondered what their life was and they were to be admired. And you like, you see what they present and then they go away. And now you're

Everyone kind of has that for themselves. You can put out your opinion, your thoughts, your face. You can expose yourself. You can expose yourself constantly. Like everyone's the news. Like everyone is their own like 24-hour news channel. So the best you could be as an artist is like the OJ trial. Right. Maybe not.

But kind of. Just like, oh, but unfortunately, it's going to be— Everyone's watching. Everyone's watching, and everyone's going to have an opinion. But that's the art, is for people to go. Like, some people are going to hate it. Does it play any role in your creative— does it change the creative process when you get reaction? I try not to let it.

But I can tell you it does. Yeah, of course. Of course. Yeah. Like, I mean, but my last special was like, is talking about my reaction to reactions. Right. And so it's not just like a snake eating itself. Like, you kind of, I have to step away from it for a little while. Like, now, like, you, you,

You only stop searching your name on Twitter because you've been hurt. Right, right. I don't do that anymore. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's the word cunt is there. Yeah, you— On Twitter now. Yeah, everyone does it. It's cunt is perfect. But you don't—at most, you can just not do it anymore. Right, that's right. That's true. That's true. That's true. But you had to stop. It was like, oh, that was like— That was—yeah. Well, it changed. It changed. That particular platform changed. Yeah.

Can we go back to class for a minute? It just stuck in my head. That was a theme in your earlier work and kind of the third rail in America. No one talks about class. Now, again, since you're at the intersection right now, you're talking about don't be gay. But talk a little bit about the class stuff that was in your earlier work because I thought that was really interesting. Well, just because, I mean, it's a...

I grew up in a place and an environment where people didn't have money. So you think about money all the time. You're upset. Or not thereof. One of the first things I remember when we got the internet, there was this website that broke down Bill Gates' wealth into little pieces of bits of information. I remember one that said,

Bill Gates makes over $300 per second. So if he's walking down the street and he drops a $100 bill on the ground, it's not worth his time to bend over. Right. Just leave it. Imagine being nine. Like, what the fuck are you even talking about? Right, right, right. Like, an obsession with, like, well, how do I get this? How do I get that? Church—like, I talk about that in a special, like, church—

Because it makes me understand, I understand people's need for like Trump. If you're poor, Trump represents like this. He's an aspirational. Yeah, yeah. And the way, because I grew up with like around people that went to like mega churches, like poor people, like they just couldn't pay like medical bills that had like pointed to a minister in a mansion with a Mercedes. But I understand the need for that. Rappers did that for me. Like I'm like, I couldn't afford the things they were talking about. But like through proxy, I'm like, oh, I feel confident. I feel that.

And so then, you know, my life is like, is strange because then like, oh, now I'm like thrown on the other side of that. Right, right, right, right. And now like it's just a completely different perspective that I'm still like learning. I'm learning how to talk about, learning how to deal with. Comedians don't usually talk about money. Like it's kind of like it's supposed to be more relatable to everyone. Yeah, yeah. But I just find it interesting. So when

One of the things that you talk about a lot also is who, you mentioned Dick Cavett, you mentioned others. I don't know why Dick Cavett's come up a lot today. Dick Cavett was amazing. That's because he was, or Tom Snyder, or Merv Griffin, or there were so many of them. But you often say also you love Norman Lear and so many others. Who influences you now? And is there LGBTQ work you admire or...

Or not. Yeah, no, for sure. Well, here's the thing. The funny thing is, out or closeted, if you are an artist, you are heavily influenced by LGBTQ work. Yes, that's true. That's true. That's right. Yeah, like if you're in the church. Right. Who was the most important previously as a young comic? Well, Jay-Z was like my role model. Somebody who I...

I look to for emotional guidance and practical guidance and to be like, you know, how to walk, how to speak, what to wear, how to be in the world. Like, he was my role model more than any comic. He does.

Because he came from a place that was similar to where I was, and he made it out, and he carried himself with such confidence, and he never lost touch, lost a sense of who he was. And I needed that. I still need that. I'm so lucky to have the big brother I have today.

who, like, chose Jay-Z as his favorite rapper because, like, Jay-Z's one of the only rappers, like, that grew in the form and, like, talked about things that rappers just never talk about. Like, the person who made Big Pimpin' also made 444. That just usually doesn't happen in an artist's career. Right. Any genre of anything. Yeah, yeah, an evolving artist. So they're so rich and interesting. He also talked about his gay mom.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Deep personal things. Like, it was incredible. And, you know, but as far as comedians, I still, I mean, you know, I love Louis. I think Louis C.K. may be one of the more brilliant minds. And I wish I could do what he does. I can't. I think I'm closer to, like, Cosby, like, in storytelling. Like, I think that's just where I've found myself. Storytelling.

Yeah, yeah, and like telling stories and like using my life as the material and like stretch, but like Louis. He's very meta, isn't he? Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, you know, obviously we're adults. I don't have to do the whole disclaimer thing. Don't roofie people. Don't show your penis. Yeah, obviously don't do that. Yeah. So you were in the Breakfast Club. You were on the Breakfast Club a year or so ago and said something really interesting. Let me play it for you.

Comedy doesn't grow. Comedy doesn't evolve. It's kind of stunted like rap. And like we just start getting like real braggadocious, like antagonistic with the crowd. And it can evolve. And we need smart people like Dave, like Chris Rock, like myself to actually evolve the art form because it is dying. It's so, so important for people to go up and do deep things.

personal stories or have a deep perspective about things going on in the world because it's not happening. Well, that's something to say. What do you mean about comedy being stunted? Well, yeah, you know, look, I'm... Well, evolve or die. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, that's... This probably could be an even bigger statement about, like, art because the word platform gets used a lot. And I'm just of the belief that...

A platform isn't a platform if everybody's standing on it. And so like now a lot of like I will take comedy. There's some very funny comedians who do crowd work. But now I don't want the crowd. Like my work isn't with the crowd. Like my work are like these thoughts that I like, you know.

took time to craft and think through and write through or felt brave enough to share or like something that is like interesting that like that it just becomes something else. Right. Right. You know, like it like and I watch comedy kind of take on a different form. Like a crowdsource kind of thing. Yeah. Yeah. And I never really believed in like crowdsourcing art. I don't think that I think it's like part of reason you don't like take the American Idol winners seriously. Right. Right.

Like, oh, I voted for you. I chose you. I chose you. Right, right. How could I ever take you seriously? Right. And how could you—they also feel beholden to the crowd. Right. Like, to invest—like, that's the difference between art and business. The CEO of the company should be beholden to the shareholders. Right. The artists should be beholden to themselves. Right. And, like, create something. Is that hard to resist, given the participation of the audience now, either through social media or comments, or they do it themselves, or they have comments on the comments? Well, it's profitable. Yeah. So—

There's that. Like, you know, like that you say... The playing to the crowd. Yeah, yeah. Like, you kind of start sounding like The Rock. You know, it's a lot of like, we, we, we did it. We sold out this room. You know, we, like, we, we, we. And like, that's one way of approaching it. And I think I just have a different... So you're more like a chef. Like, I made this for you. They're like, no, it's up to you. Yeah, I would never... That's a great example. I would never want to go to the restaurant where I... You want me to make...

I'm in charge of pasta. Would you like a little turmeric? Yeah, yeah. Add a little turmeric. Yeah, yeah. Like, no, I'm going to ruin the dish. Right. It is interesting because a lot of people do. When you have, like, when you have, especially even now, we have a lot of fans now. I think it more is, and people tell you what they think. Yeah. We think you should do this. And I'm like, I'm not doing anything you say. And also, if I did,

You will hate me. Right, right. You actually don't know that. And like, it's easy to get caught up in it. Like, no, you will, you will hate. It's the quote, like, never give the audience what they want. They'll never forgive you. That's true. That's true. One of the things that actually is easy to do, too, besides low hanging fruit and not evolving is punching down.

which I think we're on a dunk culture. Trump exemplifies the dunk culture. Obviously, Michelle and you have been openly critical of Dave Chappelle and other communities who punch down in sets. You got a bit of media back and forth with Chappelle on talking about jokes on trans folks. You've walked back a little bit. I get why. I personally just think one joke is funny. An hour of it is not. My argument, honestly, was removed from

It's me as a fan of his. Right. As like a fan of his and as a fan of the art form itself. And so it was more a critique of like craft. Evil Knievel is going to jump over 13 buses, right? He revs up. He's about to do it.

So he's like, he's getting nervous. The crowd's like, is he going to make it? Is he going to live or die? He goes over. He lands on the other side. He does it. It's a miracle. If he circles around and does it again. Correct.

Oh, it's easy. Yeah, yeah. Then add more buses. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, and so it's just how, like, I think— Lazy is what I had the issue with it. I'm like, it's just not funny. Like, I like a good lesbian. Well, you did it. Like, I thought it was—it is, just as a spectator, it's an incredible thing to pull off. Like, and I also—

appreciate the spectacle and building up. Like, it's hard to make anything interesting. He did get pulled into it. He got pulled into the argument itself. Yeah, yeah, you know, I think. But again, that's my... You're talking about punching down. People seem to love it. Some of it. People seem to love it. And I even get, in some cases, like...

I don't even get caught up in the punching up, punching down. If you have a thought like there probably is somebody with way more that can make a funny joke about somebody with way less and I would laugh. Like I would be guilty of that. I don't even think about that in principle. It is just. Is it funny or not? Well, just are you maximizing your own potential and your own ability? I see. And that's a personal question. Yeah, it's about craft for me more than it's a political argument. Is it different from what?

the Trump people are doing, you know, all the, they do a lot of dunking. Dunking is a sport at this point. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, but then I got to think about like, all right, how, like I didn't vote for Trump. Right. So, but I'm like, how am I complicit in his right? Like I do a lot of that. Like what, what am I, what, what did I do? Like I paid him a lot of attention.

I have laughed. He makes me laugh. He can be funny. There's a part of me that, like, wants to, like, that is angry. And I want to punch down sometimes, too. Like, he does do a thing that it's not Obama and Trump.

Kind of like Captain Planet, Captain Pollution to me. Like, you know, like Obama is like kind of the best of our virtues. You know, like Captain Planet was like earth, fire, wind, water, heart. And like, and Trump is the runoff, like the things that we don't necessarily, but it's, they're both true. Right, right, right. You know what I mean? Like they're both true. They're both coming from a true place. Like they both are authentic.

a part of us. And, and like, I, I guess with, with like Trump, he makes me interested in exploring like the worst part of, of myself, I think, in some way. Yeah. And to, to be able to think about and correct when it needs to be corrected. Well, do you, do you do a lot of political satire? You don't, because a lot of comedians are in

Yeah. And some people are going the opposite direction. The Carmichael show was focused on societal issues, not politics. Do you feel like doing more political humor or do you think people are tired of it? I talk about it in my living room. As far as like my work, I try and

My work is about what holds my attention. I haven't felt myself, like, having the, like, the interest in, like, keeping up with the, there are comedians who, like, a thing happens, they're on it. Matt Gaetz. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Dead Cruise. Here we go. Like, here we go. And, like, and they may have, like, a really good take on it. The things that I talk about are things that I've been, like, dealing with for, like,

like weeks and months and years and like things that I'm like, a perspective, a breakthrough that I could bring. And to me, like, that's the best that I could bring. Right. Like right now. Yeah, yeah. One of the things that was with Nathaniel, which I think people are surprised, it had few jokes, right? And you've said that. Reality show was a sitcom. What is then comedy to you if it has few jokes? Well, Nathaniel was just like, I think,

It's like this art piece that's very emotional. It's a journey that you're on with the performer. And reality show is in many ways a journey. My most recent special, Don't Be Gay, is...

I think it just, it is just crafted material. It's like, I think philosophically, I like tension. And like breaking tension is what makes me laugh. And sometimes that's being the lone voice of truth in a room full of lies. But comedy doesn't have to be funny. Well, to me, what is funny, if...

When I watch comedies, like a lot of my favorite comedies are dramas. Like what? I think like Tarantino, like Tarantino is one of the funniest film directors. He's not technically, you know, he's not writing comedy, but it's really funny. Like Kristoff's characters are funny because he breaks down.

tension in an interesting way if everybody's funny for me this is like my own personal and I've had tastes like this since I was a kid if everybody's funny then nothing's funny you know the best example I think of like like my own personal taste in comedy there there was um this movie that uh we love called Menace to Society uh like came out in the early 90s the Hughes Brothers like like

Heavy, dark, telling the story about this young man who loses his parents, is raised by his grandparents, gets caught up in the streets. And really, really heavy movie that has some of the funniest moments, really funny scenes in it.

You know, like Clifton Powell has a thing. I won't have to get into the details. But this is a serious movie that has really funny moments. I think Menace to Society is funnier than there was a Wayans Brothers parody of it called Don't Be a Menace While Drinking Your Juice in the Hood, which is like...

It's meant to parody it. I think Menace to Society is funnier than Don't Be a Menace. Oh, that's funny. So that's just my own, I guess, take. The Wayne Brothers are hilarious, but I'm just saying that's my taste. I think Succession is a comedy. Succession is a comedy. Sopranos is a comedy. Yeah, I talked to Brian Goddard. I'm like, you're doing a comedy because I'm doing a comedy. Yeah, of course. Yeah. Exactly. So fucking ridiculous. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's comedy to me.

We'll be back in a minute.

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WhatsApp. Message privately with everyone. Visit whatsapp.com slash privacy to learn more. So I want to finish talking about your career in industry. Doing a sitcom on NBC and a special on HBO are obviously career goals for comics. You signed an overall two-year deal with HBO in 2022. Are you going to keep working for them? What is success now for a comedian or comic?

Because it's changed. Yeah, yeah, no. You don't want to be the head of late night anymore. Yeah, no, no. No interest in that. Right. But no one would have ever said that before. Yeah. Well, I don't think like Richard Pryor never even, Richard Pryor was at the peak of Carson and he would never have wanted to do that. That's true. That's fair. To me, I mean, it's like it is just being able to make what you want to make. Right.

Like, you know, I didn't do this because I wanted to just like work. I wanted to do it because I had ideas. That you wanted to get through. Yeah. I have comedian friends who like do podcasts and they're like talking to other people about things. I'm like, man, that seems exhausting. You really be caring about what people be saying? Like, I don't want to throw nobody under the bus, but you ever watch people do the yawn? They try and swallow the yawn? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, I mean, watching like just sleepy people. Yeah.

Yeah. We were, like, talking to politicians, like, you don't give a fuck about this. Yeah, you don't care about it. Like, that seems, like, I'd rather make less money and not have to do that. Whatever you want to make, wherever you can make it is all your interest. Yeah, yeah. I love my relationship with HBO. I'm thankful to have Nina Rosenstein, who has meant the world to me and, like, has understood me. And I like gatekeeping. Mm-hmm.

Me too. I like that HBO is like a little bit smaller and that there are thoughtful people that are like kind of like filtering through something. I think like art should be... Are you worried with all the... Well, they're breaking apart, for example. These companies are disintegrating or breaking apart and being made smaller. Yeah, you know, I don't know. You kind of got to let it happen. There's nothing I can do about the mergers and them breaking apart and anything. You don't go, I got to have a YouTube show now. Yeah, no, no. I mean, if...

If I had an idea for one, I would do it. You know, and I'm not against that, but it's just like, you know, I'm just saying like, and even my idea of HBO in some ways is like a little antiquated. No, they have taste. No, no, it's actually not. They still do. They still have the shows that are,

talked about in a way, like, you know, Fritz talked about rehearsal or even talk about White Lotus, you know, like these things that are like talked about in culture because it's thoughtful. It's just thoughtful art. I just want like, you know, I want to work with thoughtful. I've been lucky enough to be able to work with like thoughtful artists, people that really care, people that have shame. Yeah.

Like if things aren't good and like people that could be embarrassed. But you don't care where you are. You don't feel the pull of having to do YouTube or TikTok or things like that. No. And look, if I were younger. You're not old. Well, I'm just saying

but I am at a place where I grew up thinking about art like this way that you craft something and then you release it. It's not about constant engagement because it dilutes the art. So you're going, those young kids, 20s. You know what I'm saying? You're right. It's not about age because there are older comedians that I hear are guilty of this too, but just like comedians are just like,

talk too much. If my job is to talk to you for an hour, I can't talk to you for five hours a week. Right, that's right. And then like, it's going to get diluted. That's just like math. Yes, that's a fair point. And so I just am a type of person. You're right, it's not an age thing. I'm just a type of person that like, I would rather speak to you potently for an hour than

Got it. And mean everything that I say. So one of the couple more things. Do you worry about streamers getting more conservative? Obviously, a lot of these companies are paying off. Paramount might pay off Trump. ABC paid off Trump. And so but are you worried about more conservatism or at all in the current political environment, which will change? I'm probably more worried about it brought like like more broadly, just like its effect, like

That they're like 19-year-olds that have the same rhetoric that I heard like 70-year-olds have. Right, right. Like that's like a little like, oh. Do you feel pressure to be in the manosphere, even though you like men?

There's so many Manosphere comedians now. Yeah, yeah. Many of whom aren't funny, actually. Some of them are. But, like, that's what I'm saying. Like, it is separating. Like, anything that becomes a thing, like, if you are joining the Manosphere, it's over. Yeah. Like, it's over. It's already, like, it's already, it's like seeing a star that's been dead long. Like, it's over. Yeah, yeah. Like...

yeah just care about any individual voice any individual interest in voice like you know like like like Theo Vaughn is funny yeah Theo Vaughn was funny to me in 2013 at the comedy store was like you know I was like yeah he's funny he's always been funny like is he in the I don't know like he's just you don't feel any pressure to go that direction no no and I think feeling like again like

Yeah, I don't know. There's a difference between the artist and the used car salesman. Right, right, right. You know, there's just kind of following the trend and doing the thing. I don't know. Going back to what Michelle said, you're not just a comedian. You've been an executive producer, a producer, a director, a movie and television actor. You've done reality shows, scripted shows. Is there something you haven't done that you still want to do? Obviously not a podcast, as you said. You don't have enough interest and you will yawn at people. No.

I've been yawning for hours. Thank you for not yawning. But thank you for not yawning during me. I would do it. You're not boring. No, but I've been trying to remove hyphens. Okay. Multi-hyphen. I don't want to be multi-hyphen. I want to be really good at something. Right. I care about being really, really good at, like, if it's one thing, oh, to be so lucky. So what is that?

now in stand-up I love going into a room with thoughts with a show with a performance a live show with people yeah yeah but I'm also part of it is filming I've also I've always loved that I've always loved

how it's filmed and like that medium of like capturing lightning in a bottle and releasing it. That's always been exciting to me. So that's kind of all a part of it. A part of it. I love the entertainment industry. I love it as an idea, but I don't need to wear multiple hats. I don't need to be a director for the sake of, I don't need to be called, I don't need to be called anything. Right, right.

So just your work is all what you do. Yeah, yeah. Last question. Do you think you're the son your mother wanted you to be? I think I'm the son she deserves. Meaning? Like, I care deeply about her. I think that is what she wanted. She wanted to be a good mom. I asked her once what her dream was. Like, does she have any dreams? Does she have, like, a career aspiration or something that she wanted to do she never got to do? And she told me that she—

She always just wanted to be like a good mom. She wanted two boys, which she got, and she wanted to love them and wanted them to love her. And I do. I love her. I love her dearly. And so that's what I'm saying. I think she got the. She got what she wanted. Yeah. Yeah, I think so. Well, good job, Cynthia. Yeah. Anyway. She did all right. Gerard, thank you so much. I really appreciate it. This has been a wonderful conversation. This is really fun. Thanks for having me.

On With Kara Swisher is produced by Christian Castro-Russell, Kateri Yochum, Megan Burney, Alison Rogers, and Kaylin Lynch. Nishat Kerwa is Vox Media's executive producer of podcasts. Special thanks to Skylar Mitchell. Our engineers are Rick Kwan and Fernando Arruda, and our theme music is by Trackademics.

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