Young Democrats vs. the Gerontocracy
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Do you mind if I call you Greg and Sarah? I can call you representative if you want. Greg and Sarah is probably more... Because I'm going to call Amanda, Amanda, and then... I worked harder for Sarah than Congresswoman. Okay, all right. Okay, good. That's an excellent point. It's on. It's on.

Hi, everyone from New York Magazine and the Vox Media Podcast Network. This is On with Kara Swisher and I'm Kara Swisher. Amid all the issues that Washington has right now, one that hasn't seemed to die is the crisis in the Democratic Party. Democrats in disarray and in fact, they are. And a lot of this has focused on the generational shift that has yet to come. My guests today are all Democrats and millennials who want to be part of the solution.

Congressman Greg Kassar represents Texas's 35th district. He was first elected to Congress in 2022 and has been chair of the Congressional Progressive Caucus since January. This year, he's been out on a Fight the Oligarchy tour with Senator Bernie Sanders and Congresswoman Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez and speaking to constituents in Republican districts far from Texas.

Congresswoman Sarah McBride is the newly elected sole representative of Delaware. She was a state senator in Delaware from 2020 to 2025, and she is also the first openly transgender elected official in Congress.

She's already faced a lot of discrimination, including from Republican colleagues who passed a bill before her arrival banning her from using the Capitol women's bathroom. Yes, they spent time doing that. But she's a fighter. It's all in a documentary about her campaign and the first few months in office, State of Firsts, which just played at the Tribeca Film Festival and DC Docs.

Our third guest is Amanda Littman, the co-founder of the organization Run for Something, which supports young, diverse progressives in running for down-ballot races. Since its founding in 2017, Run for Something has helped nearly 1,500 candidates in 49 states and D.C., including over 250 candidates in 2024, 18 of whom flipped their seats from red to blue. Before launching Run for Something, Amanda worked on the Clinton-Obama campaigns, a

among others, and she recently has written a how-to guide to millennial leadership called When We're in Charge, The Next Generation's Guide to Leadership.

We're going to talk about their advice for the Democratic Party, what role the generational divide plays in policy and agenda setting, and what Democrats need to do to win back next-gen voters. It's going to be a lot less wonky than it sounds. These are incredibly smart people, I promise. Our question today comes from an old-timer in politics, although an oldie is still a goodie, former U.S. ambassador to Japan, Rahm Emanuel, who's been involved in so many successful campaigns. So stick around. ♪

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Representative Greg Kassar, Representative Sarah McBride, and Amanda Lippman, thank you for being on On. Thanks for having us. Thanks for having us. So I want to talk with you today about the crisis in the Democratic Party that's been ongoing since before the election and the role the next-gen Dems like yourselves play in

In a recent Washington Post op-ed, Dana Milbank wrote that Nexus Search found more than 3,500 instances of the phrases Democrats need to and Democrats must. And of course, Democrats in disarray is always an old favorite that we like to turn to. So there's a lot of advice out there and a lot coming from other Democrats. But we're going to add more too. I'd like each of you to complete the phrase Democrats need to, Democrats should, and Democrats should not. Sarah, you start and then Amanda, then Greg.

Democrats should fight smart. Democrats should not. Was that the next one? Should not. Should not shed imperfect allies. And need to. Democrats need to prioritize bold economic policy. Okay. Excellent. Amanda? Democrats should embrace new leaders who can fight smarter in the modern media environment.

Democrats need to let go of the playbooks that are no longer serving us. And Democrats should not continue to privilege a system of seniority that has gotten us to this point. All right. That's a good one. Gray? Democrats should win back and earn back our brand as the party of the working class person. We should not...

I think we should not be afraid. We should just not be afraid. And I think we must earn people's trust back. We must reconnect with people and not think that just dumping a bunch of money

on folks right near an election is going to win us people's trust back if we're disconnected from them and what they care about. That's a really good point. So according to a New York Times analysis, between 2012 and 2024 elections, six times as many counties moved toward the GOP as they did towards the Democratic Party. So it is bigger than President Trump. Republicans are growing a base of non-college-educated working class voters. This is not news to any of you. As opposed to Democrats who are mostly growing among college-educated wealthier voters.

So, G, what's the explanation for this shift and the takeaway for the Democratic Party? Because the working class obviously used to be solid Democrat. It doesn't mean they have to be. You know, you can't take anyone for granted. So why don't you start, Greg, and then Sarah, and then Amanda. There's been a big debate about whether we Democrats just need to change our message or we need to change our ideology.

substance. And there's been a big debate about whether Democrats need to be more progressive or more to the center. But at the end of the day, I think what we actually have to do is run directly towards working class people and their daily lives, their daily issues. There's an anecdote that I like to share about when I was in Nevada campaigning for Vice President Harris to be the president during early voting, when I really knew that we were probably cooked for

when I was talking to a group of Latino voters, almost all of them in maintenance and construction and the trades, who said to me, well, we feel like Democrats are focused on something other than my daily bread, my daily life.

And if we don't reclaim that we are the party that is going to take on the people that are screwing you over so that you can afford things in your daily life, then I think we lose and we lose by even worse than we lost this time because Republicans then can fill that vacuum with all of their culture war BS that they're so good at propagating. And so I think we have to be willing to

pick a fight. We have to be willing and ready to show folks who is actually screwing them over in this economy. That way we can combat the Republican message about queer folks or about undocumented immigrants by saying, no, it's not

an undocumented immigrant who is raising your rent. It is a guy at a hedge fund who is making a killing, jacking up housing costs in this entire neighborhood. And I think we have to be willing to take on a villain and make sure that folks don't think it's us that's screwing them over. But if we don't tell them who is screwing them over, then they're going to think it's the politicians that have been around. So I really think that for too long, if we're

non-confrontational and sort of policy wonky than we sound like defenders of the status quo when the status quo is really hurting everyday people in this country. Sarah? I think Greg hit on a really important point, and I think it's the path toward a sustainable majority, which is that we have to reclaim democracy

the mantle of the party of the working class. When you ask voters which is the party that's going to stand with the marginalized, we overwhelmingly win. Which party is going to stand with the working class, recognizing that obviously there's significant overlap there. But for the voter, it used to be the Democratic Party and it's no longer the Democratic Party. Mm-hmm.

And similarly, when you ask voters, what are the top five issues for the Democratic Party? What are the top five issues for the Republican Party? And what are the top five issues for you? Of the top five issues for them, three of those appear in their perception of the top three priorities for the Republican Party. Only one appears in the top five issues that they perceive to be priorities for the Democratic Party, and that's healthcare. And at the top two are abortion and LGBTQ rights. And I

I don't care what you think about those issues, what side you are on. If people perceive that to be the top priorities of the Democratic Party, then we're really not in contention. And it goes directly to what Greg was talking about, that we're not focused on

on the broad economic agenda for the working class. And I think that to solve for that, we have to do two things. One, we have to do what Greg said, which is we have to take on corporate interests. We have to present bold economic policy. We have to really center straightforward economic policy. Like, we need to give everyone a wage increase, right? Everyone should get better pay. And

And we're going to increase the minimum wage federally as number one. We're going to pass paid family medical leave. We're going to make sure that everyone has health care. And on top of that, we have to recognize that a purity politics approach to social issues communicates to people that even if we aren't talking about those issues, that if we are saying you have to be 100% with us on every single detailed part of the trans rights issue,

you know, policy agenda or the abortion rights policy agenda, even if we're not talking about that and centering that in our messaging, people then perceive that to be the priority. Right. If we're saying you have to agree with us on 100% of this.

And the reality is, is that we have to have imperfect allies. Where would we be as a party or for that matter, where would the LGBTQ community be if we said to everyone in 2006, 2005, if you're in favor of civil unions but not marriage equality, you're a bigot and a Nazi and you're not welcomed in our coalition. We had to be in coalition with folks that had a range of thoughts on

on social issues, one, to get the majority necessary to win, but two, to actually be in conversation with people to open their hearts and change their minds and build support for marriage equality. And I think if we do that, if we operationalize that as elected officials, as groups, then

And as democratic sort of influencers and activists, I think we can build the necessary coalition to win, reclaim the mantle as a party that not only is in favor of the working class, but is prioritizing the working class, and also do the hard work of long-term public opinion change on the very issues where we're welcoming diversity of thought. On those issues themselves, right, rather than forcing people into it. Amanda? I think there's some structural pieces here, you know,

Democrats under Obama and then well into 2016 and beyond lost a ton of local offices, state legislatures, city councils, school boards, which meant that in a lot of places there wasn't a Democratic operation actually engaging with folks.

And I think our party, Greg and Sarah talked about the message. I think we lost the ability to have a compelling messenger who could deliver that in a way that was truly authentic and broke through. The way that people get information now is so different. It is so personality driven. I mean, you know this better than anyone. I'm famous now. Yeah, it is persona. It is personality. It is ability to show up.

and to break through the stream of bullshit on your Instagram feed, your TikTok, your podcast feed, all of that, you need a messenger who can do so really compellingly. And I think Greg and Sarah are incredible examples of that, who both got their roots in local office and were able to connect with community and show up and tell a story that people can connect to

We need more of that. Who isn't that when you think about that? I think, you know, President Biden, for all the good his administration did, the fact that he couldn't sell the work and that he was the face of the Democratic Party for four years is not the only reason, but one of many reasons why it was so hard for people to connect what he was doing to the impact they were feeling. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Because he looks old, among other things. And couldn't have a real conversation, especially in the back half of his presidency. And I think that part of leadership right now is both getting the work done and then selling the work so that people can continue to invest in you to keep doing it. And if we have elected leaders who can't do that, especially in this media ecosystem—

then they can't be effective politicians. Which Trump is surprisingly good at. I wrote a column many years ago saying the two most gifted digital people were Trump and AOC at this moment. Mm-hmm. Sarah, you were the first openly transgender person elected to Congress, which is historic, but you faced personal attacks before you were even sworn in. South Carolina Representative Nancy Mace, and I'm so sorry for her.

She used to text me. No longer. I blocked her. Put forth a bill to ban you from using women's bathroom in the Capitol, yet you voted in support of another bill that may sponsor HR 30. So you gave her a win. And despite facing active discrimination from the GOP, the bills you sponsored have had Republican co-sponsors. So talk about that vote and how you think bipartisanship factors into our agenda and strategy, because I perceive that voters don't like all this.

partisanship, even if they play in it. I do think voters want us to maintain the capacity and willingness and openness to work across the political divide when it is possible. I don't think it's impossible to fight hard and where it is possible to find bipartisan opportunities to move the ball forward to do that too. I think it's a false choice to say that they are mutually exclusive.

Look, I believe that my voters sent me here to stand up to anyone who's going to hurt them and to work with anyone who has an idea that might help them. And part of this system of government, part of democracy is being willing to work with someone who you might disagree with on every other issue, but the one right before you

so that you can make progress on that issue before you. Would you say you're more of a centrist, or does it play a role that you're also the only representative from Delaware? Part of it is I'm the only representative from Delaware. Part of it is I believe that when we have the capacity to work together, that's how to make government work. Look, I think one of the reasons why Trumpism is even possible is because people are so frustrated—

that government has stopped working for them.

That it's not meeting their needs. And I do think that in a system of government where you have divided government more often than not, you need to maintain the capacity to work across the divide and move some things forward because I do think if you don't, people grow more frustrated. And I think that more often than not, that frustration is a wide opening path for an authoritarian wannabe who says, I alone can fix the gridlock issue.

consolidates power. And that's one of the reasons why presidential systems have actually fallen in a lot of other places that they've been tried, particularly when you have ideologically homogeneous parties. And so I think bipartisanship, whether you like it or not, has to be part of a presidential system's process and

to prevent the kind of frustration that Donald Trump has been able to exploit for political gain. I would also separate that from my specific approach in the context of Nancy Mace and the bathroom thing. The reality is, is that when you are a first-

If you respond to a slur with a slur, they'll only hear yours, as the movie 42 says. If you respond to a punch with a punch, they'll say you're the aggressor. There are just certain ways that I have to conduct myself here, quite frankly, to guarantee that while I may be a first, I'm not the last, that I maintain my effectiveness and that I allow myself to be seen in the fullness of who I am as a legislator and the fullness of who my constituents are as a diverse state. And that's

that was an effort to gain attention, one, and an effort to caricaturize me. And I wasn't going to let some of my colleagues succeed in that. You know, in this documentary that just came out about your campaign and a few first-me-once-in-office called State of Firsts, you talk about the difficult situation you're in where your identity is at the center of your political conversion, but you represent a district not predominantly made up of constituents of that identity. One of the big

criticisms from the last election was Democrats have been leaning too hard into identity politics, obviously. And you've been criticized by members of the trans community for not taking more of a stand on the bathroom bill or reacting. I think you did exactly the right thing. But has there been too much identity politics or is that a red herring and too much pressure on probably both of you, Greg, also to play down and shift away from those parts of your identity? Yeah, I mean, I think here I...

lean into my experience being a labor organizer before I was an elected official. And when you needed, as I needed to get 200 or 300 guys on a Texas construction site to all work together,

to get a raise. And on Texas construction sites, you have folks that are documented and undocumented, native-born Texans, immigrants, Latinos, that their border crossed their families, they didn't cross the border. And to get everybody together, what I learned that we needed to focus on was the fact that folks are working together

five, six, seven twelves, you know, who are working all day in the Texas sun for way too little money. But the person making the most money who barks orders at them and says things like you're fired and thinks none of the rules apply to them, the rich, wealthy developer is working the least and is screwing them all over. And so by putting those economic interests first, by saying, you know what, we might disagree on a lot.

But at the end of the day, we are all working towards a raise. That's how we got people to look past some of their differences of opinion or differences of where they come from and work together across identities.

to win. And that's how we won better rights for undocumented workers and U.S. citizen workers alike. And so I think that this question of do we throw vulnerable people under the bus to win is looking at this the wrong way. If we want to be able to be a party that still defends everyday people and vulnerable people, we've got to bring everybody together. And I think nothing can bring us together more than

than the richest man on earth taking apart the government or, you know, the most corrupt president in American history screwing you over. And so I think at the end of the day, if we want to protect all those different kinds of folks,

We've got to be able to win, and I think that an economic agenda is at the heart of how we win. Sarah? Yeah, Greg knows that I, because I smiled a little bit when he brought up the union analogy. He knows I love that one, and I first heard him use it when I first got here, and I was like, that is gold, and it's exactly the right way we should be thinking about this as a party and as elected officials, and frankly, as trans people. Look, I'm proud of who I am, but it is just one part of who I am. Mm-hmm.

And I also think we should be clear that the party that is obsessed with trans issues, the party that is talking about trans issues, the party that is spending millions and millions of dollars communicating on culture war issues is the Republican Party. The Democratic Party is here for everyone. And that means a rising tide lifts all boats. That means, yes, we are here for trans people, but we're here for everyone. And that's why we're here for trans people. And I think that the Republican Party often will

continue to go after these attacks because they know that we will take the bait, that we'll run towards that fight. And we'll take ourselves off the ball of keeping the main thing the main thing, and that is the very real material needs of working families across this country. And the very dangerous attacks that we're seeing on working people across this country right now by Donald Trump and House Republicans and Senate Republicans are

And I think that part of our job right now, and I think this is sort of a reflection of the new media environment, is that we actually kind of have to have an open conversation with our own side about the hard work of changemaking.

And that things that always feel viscerally comforting to us aren't always the most effective approach. Not often, actually. And that strategy is not weakness. Picking your fights and having discipline is not weakness. It's being smart, and ultimately it's the path to victory. So Amanda, you run for something, an organization that supports progressive next-gen politicians for downed ballot offices. And what impact do you think shying away from these organizations

topics could have on candidates. Younger voters say they also prize authenticity in their candidates. So it's sort of, I don't know if it's a double-edged sword. I can't tell. Talk a little bit about this. How do you communicate your openness and support for all these groups and yet at the same time not make them the focus, which tends to alienate other people? You know, I think one of the things that next-gen leaders do so well is make it about the voter, not about themselves.

This is like what leadership is. I think it's something a lot of Democrats have forgotten. The question is not why do you want to win? It's why do voters want you to win? What are you going to do for them? How can you make it about their lives? Your identity can certainly shape your lived experience even more so. It can shape the priorities you come in, the stories you tell. You know, Greg's story about being a labor organizer is such a perfect example of that. And it's about what that means for the people he's representing.

This is something that especially local candidates can do even more powerfully because, you know, no matter your gender identity, your sexual orientation, your race, your class, wherever you live, like your trash needs to get picked up. You've got poverty bills to pay. Your kids are going to go to school. Those things have to get done. And the local candidates who can hyper-localize their races and can bring it back to those very tangible things.

can cut through some of the like, quote unquote, cultural conversation and make it deeply personal to voters. I think that is what moves the needle more so than any particular like,

identity push. And Kara, I want to hop in there exactly where Amanda was, because I think sometimes the message of let's focus on the broad needs of working people gets misunderstood as let's start throwing trans folks under the bus or if we just don't talk about it, it's going to go away. That's not the argument because look, if somebody doesn't talk about it, the Republicans certainly bring it up, right? It is no coincidence that

that on the day the nonpartisan Congressional Budget Office put out a bombshell report that the Republican plan is going to kick people off their health care, that day...

Marjorie Taylor Greene's committee that she chairs, that's supposed to be the Doge committee, suddenly had a hearing on trans semi-pro fencing. Yeah, I know. My mom told me about it. She's very deliberate. She's going to bring it up. Yeah, the stock market declined 100 some points. And my mom goes, do you know about these trans fencers? I'm like, there's nobody. Stop it. Like, what do you care? Right. It was the first day I'd ever met somebody in fencing was that day. I was like, nobody likes

fencing at all except the fencers and otherwise. And I'm sure it's a great sport. I just literally, you know, hadn't thought about it a moment till that day. But your question about authenticity, you can authentically say in that hearing that

You are kicking people off their health care. They could die. And so what you're doing is carding in this issue that affects a sliver of a sliver of people to try to wage a battle against kids that are probably already having a hard time in school and make that the big deal. Like, isn't that sick and gross and what nobody sent you here for? Right. Or whatever your authentic way of saying that is. We'll be back in a minute.

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So you're all millennials. So let's talk about the impact of generational divide. Millennials now make up 15% of the House. There is one Gen Z representative, Maxwell Frost from Florida, but 120 members of Congress are older than 70. That's more than one-fifth.

The gerontocracy is a big buzzword, as it should be. It's something that Scott and I talk a lot about for a long time now, actually. What impact does age have on the agenda? Is issues central to younger generations getting sidelined? Amanda, why don't you start? I think it's a huge problem. There is an incredible bench of talent everywhere. We've endorsed Representative McBride in her first state Senate race as one of our alum in Congress now.

The fact that so many of them have told me over the last couple of years, you know, I really want to run for higher office, but I'm being told to wait my turn. I'm being told I would jump the line. These older leaders, folks, especially in their 70s and 80s, have neither the skills nor the stomach to wage the war we need in this moment. That's not to say they're bad leaders. That's not to say they like they don't have skills.

have like good ideas, but between the media ecosystem and the fact that this is not the Republican Party of John McCain or Mitt Romney or George W. Bush anymore, it is Trump all the way down. They are not good faith partners in governance. Even the ones who vocationally do some bipartisan legislation, generally speaking, they're not good faith partners in governance. Or they're scared of him. Or they're scared to be. The ones who might want to be are scared to be. We cannot risk not sending out our best possible messengers forward.

And we have seen this, you know, in the House Oversight Committee where AOC was going up against, you know, may he rest in peace, Representative Connolly for control of the chairmanship. And, you know, he had been waiting his turn. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah.

That misses the opportunity to put forth one of our best possible communicators in the position to have oversight over the Republican Party and over this government. Yeah, that was incredible. It is like such a disappointment and is why I think especially young people who mostly experience the political system through mediated media, through TikTok and Instagram and the like,

They feel like this is a party that doesn't speak to them because most of our leaders can't. Most of our leaders, they don't know how to do it. Sarah, how do you look at this age problem? I think that clearly we should have some structural changes in how we decide who...

is in positions of leadership and committees and for how long, I think. Scott and I suggest you have to retire by 70 at the latest. Well, I think even simply with term limits for rankers and committee chairs, right? That creates an environment where there's some degree of natural

You know, corporations, they have 65 at the New York Times. That's it. You're done. And that's relatively young today, considering. Politico recently released an audio of DNC Chair Ken Martin saying he's not sure if he wants a job because of infighting with Vice Chair David Hogg. Hogg had vowed to spend $20 million to challenge Democratic incumbents. He deems a sleep at the wheel. There were calls to oust Hogg as a result. To be clear, primarying a sitting Democrat in a safe blue district is how AOSU made it to Congress, by the way.

Amanda, taking down incumbent Dems is a way to force generational overhaul. And Greg and Sarah, what are your thoughts on that? Because that's more difficult and everybody wants to behave. And one thing I've noticed about the Trump people is they don't behave. They eat each other. If need be, they do. They toss the richest man in the world out of the White House, which is...

Takes a set to do that, I would imagine. Competitive primaries are good. Competitive primaries are how we decide what we believe as a party. They're how the cream of the crop rise to the top. They are how candidates get better. They're how organizers get better. They are practice rounds for the general, especially in competitive districts. You know, we have seen the downside of not having competitive primaries. See 2024 and 2016. We've seen the upside in 2020. Like Biden was able to beat Trump because he had been through that crisis.

crazy, chaotic, in retrospect, primary where you sort of had to maneuver through the Democratic voters. This is true on every level. You know, whether or not David is the right person to operationalize that is a separate question for the DNC to figure out. But I think it is so, so important to embrace these as opportunities to bring fresh voices into the room. It is

I think, foolish to dismiss them as a waste of resources. It is also, I think, both foolish and the height of hubris for internal party operatives to try and play king or queen maker in these primaries, which I have heard a number of the folks that run for something has worked with over the years now starting to run for higher office say,

They don't want me to run. They're trying to bully me out of this race. They're dropping oppo on me, as we just saw in the New York Times, where they dropped oppo about a Reddit post about Zach Walls posted 15 years ago, who's now going to be running for Senate in Iowa. Like, what?

What are we doing to assume that we know better than voters? The most important thing we can do is rebuild that relationship and show voters that we trust them and we want them to trust us. Competitive primaries is how we do that. Sarah and Greg, briefly? I'm happy to hop in. So as progressive caucus chair and as actually sort of representing members of Congress, we don't go play kingmaker and queenmaker and go deal with races that incumbents are in because, frankly, there are so many open seats in

that really our organization and our members are much more interested in because then you're not getting into the inside the house politics. So when these open seat races that folks don't pay as much attention to, you kind of determine,

who the Democratic Party is going to be. In the swing seats, it's are the Democrats going to be in control or Republicans in control? But in these primaries, you decide what kind of party we want to be. And if we want to be a party that actually talks to younger voters, you need those kinds of candidates. And what I wasn't able to mention in the last question is housing not being talked about enough in Congress, I think shows the disconnect we have. Because they have housing. From the younger generation. When I talk to voters...

Housing is the thing that younger folks bring up, and we almost never talk about it over here. And I think if we shift to actually listening to those younger voters, I think the policy agenda would shift too. 100%. I was going to say, the housing thing, and Greg, I'm so glad you brought that up. It is the number one issue that Run for Something candidates are talking about, in particular through the lens of renting, which is something that I think there's maybe one or two renters, full-time renters in Congress, maybe a couple more. 93% of elected officials are homeowners.

There's a reason that this conversation is being left out, and it's one of the many reasons why younger voters do not feel the consequences of government's actions at every level on their cost of living, because housing is not being tackled in a way that touches young voters' lives. Absolutely. It's one of the reasons why we're launching a big program this year to recruit more renters to run for office, because—

It's the only way we're going to push the needle on this conversation. Well, so let's talk about young voters. You just brought up Amanda. They've been historically more progressive in the last election. Republicans also closed the margin in the Gen Z and millennial vote. And Gen X went utterly the other way. The lead poisoning. Yeah, yeah. Gen X. I am. Well, I'm on the cusp of Gen X and baby boomer, but let's blame them. Yeah.

Well, let's talk about young voters. The last election, Republicans also, as I said, closed the margin, especially among young men. But there seems to be a split even in Gen Z. In a recent Yale Youth Poll, older Gen Z voters, 22 to 29 years old, said they'd vote for a Democrat in 2026 by a margin of 6.4 points. But younger Gen Z voters, 18 to 21 years old, said they'd favor Republicans by nearly 12 points. So how

can you explain the shift and the strategy to win younger voters over, especially if there are two Gen Zs? We have to take this extremely seriously. I think losing working class voters is the biggest existential issue for the Democratic Party across ages. But then young voters are

trending in this election towards Trump is terrifying because that's the future and the habits that you build when you're a younger voter, you tend to hold on to for a while. And so like, these are the voters that Democrats just assumed were going to naturally, you know, carry us through the day, just like Latino voters or whatever else. And Trump and Republicans have said, we can go win with anybody.

And I think similarly, Democrats have to say, we can go win with anybody. We can go win anybody over if we say, you're welcome here with us and we are going to fight for you.

But one of the similarities between a lot of working class voters and younger voters is that increasingly those voters aren't getting their information from traditional media, just from reading the newspaper. Democrats are starting to do really well with that group, but we've got to be able to go and communicate with folks on their phones and in non-traditional ways.

And to do that, we've got to be willing to break through and not do the same old stuff we always did, right? There was an actual real debate, and I know you've covered this a lot, Kara. There's a real debate in the Democratic caucus about whether to play footsie with Elon Musk or actually go toe-to-toe with him. Because sometimes people didn't want to list his name or call a specific person out. That used to be seen as uncouth, but the Republicans beat up

on an individual immigrant or an individual activist or an individual queer American. They've got a populism of punching down. We've got to be able to catch people's attention by having a populism of

That punches up that when the secretary of education was in my committee the other day, Linda McMahon, she's worth $3.2 billion. The committee started like hissing at me for asking her how many millions of dollars she's going to make when we pass this billionaire tax cut bill. That was seen before as like rude. But if it's the only way that finally our voters can hear us, maybe we picked the right message. But what if they don't even hear it in the first place?

They can get filled with all the Republican propaganda on their phone without us competing. As you must know by now, politeness is not my favorite thing. I figured that out about halfway through this podcast. Forever. Like forever. Ask Elon Musk, for example. Sarah? So first off, I think that we have to be willing to fight. But I think we have to make sure that we're keeping our constituents the main character. Sure. This can't just be about Trump or...

sort of just a food fight among all of us. I think we really have to make sure that we keep our constituents as the focus of our fight. I think when it comes to young people, I think there are a couple of things. One, the fact, going back to the previous questions and the fact that we are a party that doesn't look young sends a pretty quick signal to young voters that we're not the place for them, or at least some young voters. Two, I think we are

have become in a lot of young people's minds the defenders of the man, right? The defenders of sort of the dominant, whether it's the dominant institutions, the dominant culture, and the Republicans come off as countercultural. Yeah, Donald Trump is still an outsider. Absolutely, and I think that that is incredibly appealing to...

a group of voters that are almost by definition outsiders. Young people are outsiders. They're just breaking in. And I think that when we become a coalition that is both not pushing for bold economic policy, that's not pushing back against entrenched interests, but also a coalition that comes off as sort of miserable and joyless and humorless,

and incredibly rigid, we reinforce the notion that we have become the sort of party of the dominant cultural mores that were sort of the prudes of politics. And I think that that presents a problem in how people perceive us. Right, absolutely. And I think we have to be able and willing to shed that. And that means sometimes being humorous and biting in our fight. It means, you know, like...

I'm just gonna be honest, like the fact that AOC got critiqued for saying the girls are fighting, like guys, I get it. But like if we can't say something because it doesn't stand up to any possible critique, then that's why we're gonna be stuck with a bunch of like prefab talking points. Right, it was very funny, actually. It was funny. Every episode we get a question from an outside expert. Yours is from someone who's held many roles in government. I wanted to get someone who was...

a difficult person. So I found the perfect person, including U.S. Ambassador to Japan and White House Chief of Staff, who's probably running for president. He's running as a centrist. But go ahead, Rahm. This is Rahm Emanuel. All three of you have chosen a life of public service and giving back.

But it does seem to me that social media, which your generation is the greatest user of, has reversed our national motto out of many one. Fringe lunatics can find a community and neo-Nazis or homophobes or flat earthers can all find a community. How can we rebuild a sense of unity and common good and common purpose in an age of social media? That's a very good question from Ron. Usually he says silly things. Go ahead. No, he doesn't. He's smart. He's not.

He's not without his attributes. Go ahead, Greg. Oh, because I laughed loudest at your joke. But it was actually, it was a very good and deep question. And I,

I think it goes back to the fact that we have to find a way to re-inspire people in this moment of where people feel powerless. And exhausted. And like nothing makes a difference. And I think that that goes back to actually figuring out how, if we get back to a governing moment, we could actually have like a national call to action to do something amazing and good together. You know, something amazing that

President Biden signed into law was the monthly tax credit that pulled so many, so many families out of poverty.

But we didn't do it in a way that was like, we're going to have a challenge out to the country, that we're going to organize the country around ending poverty for kids everywhere. And we're going to debate it and we're going to make this front and center and the people are going to win it together. And to Amanda's point, then once we did it, we didn't communicate every single day. Look what it is that we did. And I think that so much of our work right now, of course, is defending against the worst Trump-Musk abuses, right?

but at some point we do need to re-inspire the country that there can be a better world after this and there must be a better world after this and i think there's a lot to learn from coming out of the depression and fdr when in the new deal and social security or lbj big ideas civil rights voting rights medicare medicaid and had start all in one term and a way that the people can feel like we really did that together

And I think it's got to be, we can't imagine a world next year and the next few years without social media. It's going to be mediated in part through that. But I think it also can be in the streets and in person and us all working together to achieve something special that improves everybody's life. I think it'd make a difference. The last thing I'll mention on that is

Right after we lost this election, Sarah and I sat in a room where a lot of folks said we didn't do so bad, even though we lost. And that all these European countries lost their incumbents as well. But where we didn't look was in Mexico, where the incumbent pardon grew its majorities, elected its first woman president. And where a lot of people had that common cause that said, we're going to end, pull all the

Tons of seniors out of poverty in that country. And people all knew that that's something they did together. And the president talked about it every single day for hours. So to Ram's question, I think we need to be able to have something universal and bold that actually the people win. And it aren't just like delivered by some elites or technocrats in our party if we're able to govern again. Sarah? So one of the things that used to happen is

is that political strategy was decided behind closed doors. 70 years ago, it was maybe the politicians. 30 years ago, it was the politicians and the groups. Now, political strategy is at minimum influenced by, if not dictated by, social media in a lot of cases. Everyone's a political strategist because everyone has a social media platform, or at least everyone who does have a social media platform.

And that means we actually have to start having conversations that we used to have behind closed doors out in public. I've had a lot. I've had some folks who I used to work for who are no longer in politics who will hear me talk about strategy and they go, you can't talk about that. You're not supposed to talk about how we decide to do and say the things that we decide to do and say.

And I actually think one of the lessons from Donald Trump is that you can say out loud what's going on. Everyone assumes politicians are thinking about these things. Let's just talk about it. Yeah. That's actually incredibly authentic. He's explicit. He's very explicit, right? He's like, I talk about tax cuts and everyone golf claps and I talk about trans people and you all scream, so I'm going to talk about trans people. He crimes in plain sight. I'm always saying that. And people assume that we're doing that anyway. Right.

And in a world where everyone is influencing political strategy, we have to have those conversations because change-making is hard. Democracy is hard and it requires strategy and discipline and focus. It requires us to engage with public opinion. And I think social media has done really two things that I think have degraded our sort of body politic. The first is to mistake retweets and

as a sign of effectiveness of a message. Two, to mistake what the actual world is. Because I always think of social media as 80% of people on social media are like me mostly, doom scrollers. And then like 20% are actually the posters, the doom posters.

And that 20% is not representative of the country. No. But 100%, essentially, of the political content we're seeing is coming from that 20%. And I think it leads us to give up on the possibility of persuasion. Right. The possibility of change-making. We see a world where everyone's really, really far this way or really, really far this way, where everyone's, you know—

condemning if you're not 100% here or condemning if you're not 100% here. And we give up on democracy because of that false perception of reality, that availability bias. Absolutely.

And I think we have a responsibility to push back because one of the benefits of being an elected official is we are forced to engage in the real world. We go out in our districts. We meet people where they are. We have conversations with Democrats, Independents, and Republicans. And you see we actually do, and this is not a talking point, have more in common than we think.

And that there is a possibility to have dialogue across disagreement. And indeed, that's the only way to change people's hearts and minds. That persuasion is still possible. And I think we have to preach that gospel. We'll be back in a minute. Fox Creative. This is advertiser content from Adobe.

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There's a new report from the Tech for Campaigns that says part of Democrats' strategy problem is they tend to go quiet between elections, whereas Republicans are always on. Donald Trump is always on. Do you think it's fair to say that Democrats treat digital communication as a campaign season sprint? That's according to the report. And what Ron was saying, how do you use it effectively or bring it to unity rather than allow it, use it as a tool rather than a weapon?

I think it's having candidates and electeds who understand and for like for whom social media is baked into their day-to-day life. You know, Sarah's inclination to like talk through strategy in public and like, you know, open and honest about what is doing and how things are working is so millennial coded. I mean that in the highest possible compliment. Like it is an inclination to just talk through how you're making decisions and give people insight, if not input, insight.

insight into how things are happening. And like, one, that's a sign of leadership, but two, it is how you have seen some of the best elected officials, like, bring people along for like a day in my life. You know, here's what it's like behind the scenes in my office. I will always think about

about the way that AOC brought people along in her first weeks in the Capitol and showing the statues that looked like Hogwarts when she joined and expressing awe at the space she was in over her Instagram stories. And that feels like such a small thing, but that's actually an incredibly powerful way to build community. Mm-hmm.

It's kind of dismissive sometimes when people will say, like, elected officials act like influencers. But, man, influencers are so good at building trust with their audience to get them to do something. Absolutely. Their something is buy stuff, but it's really powerful. It's interesting. I had a conversation, I can say, with Kamala Harris. I don't keep any secrets.

And I said, you need to be on all the time. And she was like, well, people get sick of me. I'm like, there's no such thing anymore. I was like, I mean this in the nicest way, be promiscuous, like beyond. I said, every one of my listeners knows all about me. And they like it. They like it, or they might disagree with me, or they don't agree with one thing, but it creates a dialogue. I was like, in the new information age,

And promiscuity is, it's okay to, like, look at Trump. Every day he gives us something else. And it's not because it's just entertainment. It's because it's a journey and a relationship narrative that gets, that I think they miss. It's like one good viral video, they think that's enough. And I'm like, no, you have to, now you have to do the next one. Now you have to do the next one. Now you have to, you know, it's an ongoing thing. And I think it's very difficult for some reason for Democrats to understand that, many Democrats, that they want to be, you know, they want to hold something back.

I think it's because it's easy to make a mistake. You might get yelled at. You're going to step on a lay of mine. That's what she said. She goes, if I make a mistake, I can't. I said, well, you better start making more mistakes. We need to. I think it's worth talking about, right? As Sarah just mentioned about AOC's hilarious comment about the girls are fighting, talking about Elon Musk and Trump fighting, is that we also have to recognize that the standard for Republican elected officials is different than for us. Right.

I say something a little funny on this podcast, and it could be hell to pay and you get censured by your own party. Yeah, but what's the hell? For them, shamelessness is their superpower. So we have to kind of get through that. And people expect Republican elected officials to be like stiff-suited business guys. So if they have one interesting or cool thing about them, it stands out, you know? And so...

That isn't an excuse, but I think it's something for us to understand that maybe we also have to... Except that's over. It doesn't really matter. Mistakes... Look, Andrew Cuomo is about to become mayor of New York, my friend. Wokeness is dead, I said. It's not dead. It's that, you know, I prefer to look at it in a different way because...

I'm sort of an old school of fuck them if they can't take a joke, like that kind of thing. And one of the things, the carefulness of, I've been in these meetings of these Democrats is really astonishing given they should be better at this. I guess I'm not disagreeing with you, Kira, that we got to leave that behind. But I think the only way that we can understand why we're careful that way is because the trauma was real that caused the carefulness. Right, but it doesn't matter. And can I, go ahead. I think,

Greg's point is a really good one that, you know, I think sometimes the critiques don't fully capture of the party, which is like, yes, there are rules that the Democrats maybe could break that we don't. But there is a truth that there are two different standards for the parties.

And one of the ways I've always thought about it, and sometimes I get in trouble when I say this, is that like the double standard makes a lot more sense when you recognize that it's sort of the replication of sexism and misogyny, right? The Republican Party is an avatar for men and the Democratic Party is an avatar for women. And it's why Republicans can scream and shout and they're seen as strong and why when Democrats scream and shout, they're seen as shrill and hysterical. And like we do have to figure out

just as any woman in a workplace does, how to navigate a world where sometimes the same passion from us is read differently, not just because we get canceled or get feedback on social media, but it is actually read differently by some voters. I agree with you. And we have to make sure that we're communicating in a way where we're heard the way we want to be heard. Well, except if you keep doing it, people then get used to it, right? I mean...

Someone used to say to me, why don't you ever get in trouble, Karen? I said, I'm a lesbian, that's why. Because they're fine with that, right? And I'm not a straight woman and it reads differently. And I get that. But the lack of willingness to go there is, I think...

Self-editing is always a mistake. And I think especially in the social media age and where it's going, self-editing, it doesn't really work anymore. Well, and I think it's changing. I think we have a ton of candidates who are running for office or higher office this year and into 2026 who have records on social media, who are very fluent, very comfortable, and who are like, you

You know what? What they're saying about me online is kind of none of my business. I have so much empathy for how hard it must be to know that every time you post, honestly, whatever you post, you're going to get a barrage of bullshit back at you. Sarah, especially, some of it good faith, most of it bad faith, because people are yelling at the enemy who can hear them because they know you will hear them. That's a really good way to put it. It is so difficult to...

And I think it is so important, especially in this particular moment, the way people consume information, to say, screw it, I'm going to do it anyway. Yeah. I think if you slap back effectively, it tends to bring you fans more than anything. People are chickens. Like, the haters are cowards, you know, which goes a long way. We do just have to be willing to have people yell at us on social media. That's your job.

a little bit. Right. I mean, we can recognize the double standard and navigate around that with a voter, but we do also just have to be comfortable with being yelled at. So my last question, let's just say in the dream scenario, Amanda's team is able to get thousands of millennials and Gen Z progressives, and they take over majority control of the Democratic Party before the midterm elections. Each of you, tell me how that would change the party and what would it mean for the outcome of the election, how you think it would impact the country as a

a whole. Let's start with you, Amanda, and then Greg, and finish up with Sarah. I think if the next generation is able to take over the Democratic Party and ultimately the country, we are going to have leadership that is more authentic, more transparent, more honest, more present, more communicative, more connected to community, that delivers on the issues people genuinely care about that affect their day-to-day life, things like housing and childcare and transportation and cost of living. And if

It's going to feel fun. I know people dismiss millennials as like a little cringy earnest, but we are hopeful. We are optimistic. We imagine a better future. We are not beholden to the way things were done yesterday as the way things have to be done tomorrow. And that can be scary or that can be freeing. And I think it is so exciting and is why I am maybe surprisingly optimistic for what happens after November 2026 because we

No matter what, the Democratic Party is going to look different and the country is going to look different. And we need that. Absolutely. Greg? You know, we have to work like hell to win the midterms that you just asked about, Cara.

But one of the things that wakes me up at night right now is imagining that we win this midterm election. There's a surge in people that are upset with Trump. Midterm elections have a lot more people that read the newspaper. Like we said, those folks tend to go our way. We win these midterms and then we pat ourselves on the back and go, we did a good job. We don't really need to change too much.

Very good point. And part of what you're asking here is like, who are the folks that recognize how deep of a hole we're really in? I don't want to pretend that we're out of a hole. I don't want to pretend that we're in a ray and are getting working class voters back. I want to win them because when I wake up at night and I woke up yesterday at three in the morning thinking about this, my Garmin watch tracked my 3 a.m. wake up.

But what wakes me up at night is that we pat ourselves on the back and go, we actually don't have to change that much because we won these midterms. And that JD Vance or Tucker Carlson or Josh Hawley or whoever they throw our way eats our lunch and wins eight years in the White House.

These 140 days or whatever that Trump has had feels so painful and awful for the country. 12 years of it is just unacceptable. Right. I just can't accept it. And I think that's why we need a new direction in the party because we can win back these midterms, but that ain't enough. In my view, we just can't have these folks in charge for that long. We just can't. All right, Sarah? I think a new generation...

that is sharing themselves and their journey publicly is going to allow all of us to sort of rediscover what it means to do the hard work of democracy. And that we're doing it not because we're fearless,

We're doing it in spite of the fear and the anxiety. And I think by allowing people to come into our journey, come into our thinking, come into our sense of all our frustrations, our fears that young elected officials just inherently and authentically do, I think that'll have a healing effect on our body politic, a healing effect on our democracy.

And it'll invite people into this work in a way that allows them to learn, them to break through the perverse incentives in social media that push us apart because they're actually being invited in to this work and the complexity and nuances and beauty of it. And I think that's a really exciting opportunity that only comes with a generation that is

organically and authentically already in those spaces, communicating in those ways. Thank you so much. And what a great conversation. I really appreciate it. Thanks, Kara. All right. Thank you so much. On with Kara Swisher is produced by Christian Castor-Russell, Kateri Yochum, Megan Burney, Alison Rogers, and Kaylin Lynch. Nishat Kerwa is Vox Media's executive producer of podcasts. Special thanks to Annika Robbins and Eric Litke. Our engineers are Rick Kwan and Fernando Arruda, and our theme music is by Trackademics.

If you're already following the show, you are authentic. If not, you're just performative. Go wherever you listen to podcasts, search for On with Kara Swisher and hit follow. Thanks for listening to On with Kara Swisher from New York Magazine, the Vox Media Podcast Network, and us. We'll be back on Thursday with more.

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