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In June's Journey, you have the chance to solve a captivating murder mystery and reveal deep-seated family secrets. Use your keen eye and detective skills to guide June Parker through this thrilling hidden object mystery game. June's Journey is a mobile game that follows June Parker, a New York socialite living in London. Play as June Parker and investigate beautifully detailed scenes of the 1920s

while uncovering the mystery of her sister's murder. There are twists, turns, and catchy tunes, all leading you deeper into the thrilling storyline. This is your chance to test your detective skills. And if you play well enough, you could make it to the detective club. There, you'll chat with other players and compete with or against them. June needs your help, but watch out.

You never know which character might be a villain. Shocking family secrets will be revealed, but will you crack this case? Find out as you escape this world and dive into June's world of mystery, murder, and romance. Can you crack the case? Download June's Journey for free today on iOS and Android.

Discover your inner detective when you download June's Journey for free today on iOS and Android. That's June's Journey. Download the game for free on iOS and Android.

I'm Kate Winkler-Dawson. I'm a journalist who's spent the last 25 years writing about true crime. And I'm Paul Holes, a retired cold case investigator who's worked some of America's most complicated cases and solved them. Each week, I present Paul with one of history's most compelling true crimes. And I weigh in using modern forensic techniques to bring new insights to old mysteries.

Together, using our individual expertise, we're examining historical true crime cases through a 21st century lens. Some are solved and some are cold, very cold. This is Buried Bones. ♪♪

Hey, Kate, how's it going? It's going well. How's it going with you? I'm doing very good. What's going on in your world today? Well, I was at the doctor's office, of course, you know, for an annual exam, which everybody should get. And right before the exam, she said, just I want to have a little bit of a fangirl moment. I heard you on KUT, which is our radio station here in Austin, one of them. She said, I heard you on KUT and

I heard you talking about this new book, you know, in your shows and all of this stuff. And I just wanted to tell you that I really like the work that you do. And I started laughing and I thought, this might not be the time to do this when I'm wearing a gown that's opening to the front. Yes, yes. You must get recognized in strange situations also. Well, you know, it's interesting. It's been occasional for me out here, like in Colorado Springs, I have been recognized.

I think the first time I was ever recognized out here, I was literally in my barber's chair. I had the whole gown on. And of course, I'm just looking straight in the mirror with my barber behind me. And this woman comes up and stands and is staring at me through the mirror.

And I was like looking at her and then all of a sudden she goes, are you Paul Holes? And I was like, yeah, I am. And she was like, oh, you know, and wanted to take a picture and everything else. So she actually has a picture of me with my hair half cut with the barber gown on. Oh.

You know, but the interesting thing is, you know, I've done a fair amount of TV work, but I've actually been recognized just by the voice, you know, from podcasts. You know, these listeners are so in tune to voices. I've gotten into an Uber, you know, how the Uber driver will ask just to confirm your name. So the Uber driver who is a woman, you know, she says, are you Paul? I was like, yeah, I'm Paul.

And she goes, "Are you Paul Holes?" And I was like, "Yeah." And it was like, it was your voice. You know, I listened to you, you know? And I was just blown away by that.

That's a good thing. That means they like your voice. I'll tell you, one of the highlights of my career was working on a documentary in San Francisco. And I love San Francisco, and I love going back there. And I like going back there also in stories because I think it's such an electric time period. My book, American Sherlock, was set in 1920s in the Bay Area. And this is where we're going to be today. Sounds like you're going to take me to my home base in the Bay Area.

Yep, 1920s San Francisco. Let's go ahead and set the scene. So I'm going to keep the victim here a mystery just for a little bit. This story consists solely of two people, a married couple, man and a woman. And as I said before, we are in 1920s San Francisco. So two people in the same apartment, one ends up dead and the other one is arrested claiming that

the first person took their own life. And of course, the police feel differently. So this is that classic case. Is it suicide or is it murder? And oftentimes, it's the nuances of the forensics and the evidence and reenactments that can shine light on a case like this. And how do you really figure out when there are two very distinct possibilities? Is there a case that comes to mind

for you that was like that, that sort of difficult thing to untangle? You know, there's been multiple, you know, suicide or murder cases that I've had some role in over the decades. And, you know, some are very clear cut once, you know, start digging into the details and some, they remain fuzzy. There's one case that I do remember, and this was a case where

in which a boyfriend called in 911, said his girlfriend had shot herself and was upstairs and he had gone upstairs and then called 911. And in evaluating the case,

whether or not she could physically shoot herself wasn't the question. And that oftentimes, you know, is what people think is could they have pulled the trigger, you know, holding the gun the way that they were shot or not. And most of the time that is not going to differentiate suicide or homicide. But in this particular case, you know, paramedics responded right away. They transported her body. But when I'm looking at the crime scene, there was a huge blood pool

but the blood pool had congealed prior to her body being moved. And this takes a long time. We're talking an hour, two hours for it to congeal. And now the boyfriend is saying, I heard a gunshot. I went upstairs. I called 911 right away. And I'm going, no way. His timeline's off. His timeline's off. The blood told the tale. And unfortunately in that case,

That was not enough. And there wasn't any other information for the DA to say, yes, I'm going to file charges. So I truly believe that this man got away with murder.

You know, I have to listen to all of our episodes. I mean, don't have to. I love listening to all of our episodes. But for quality control, Alexis, the producer, asks me to listen to all of the episodes. And I was just listening to an episode yesterday in which you say there are so many cases in your head where you know who did it and you just can't prove it. And you must have been talking about this type of case also where you just in your bones know what happened before.

but you can't get it over the finish line with a DA. So that must be incredibly frustrating, especially a young woman who's dead, and you just can feel that the boyfriend was the one who did it. Right. Well, and this is just part of, in many ways, the checks and balances of our justice system. You know, whether you're a forensic scientist and you find evidence that you think is compelling, you

you know, that points towards involvement of, let's say, a suspect in the crime, or you're an investigator who has developed circumstantial evidence and maybe even physical evidence, forensic testing. You think you have developed a compelling case, but then you have the DA who has to evaluate the case and be convinced that they can get 12 members of the public to unanimously

How do you say that? Unanimously. I say, you know what you said the other day? You said anonymity the other day perfectly. And I thought, bastard, I can't ever say that word. I have it all over one of my books. And when I was reading the audio book, I said, I will never write anonymity ever again.

Well, obviously, unanimously is a word that I struggle with. Hey, you did it. That was good. I know. That was just, I just threw it out there and it worked. But when people are evaluating, let's say, a conviction, if everybody is working, let's say, with the right intent, because we know there have been false convictions, but if everybody is doing the right thing,

and making the right decisions to go for the truth, you know, there is some weight put on a final conviction. Doesn't mean it's always correct, but, you know, that's where it's like, okay, there are these checks and balances if everybody is doing their job and is seeking the truth. Well, and I think that's a good point. So seeking the truth is very complicated in this story. So we'll see if you come to the same conclusion that the jury did in this case. Okay.

Let me tell you about one of our two potential victims. The woman's name is Grace Chaney, and she was born in February of 1893 in Oakland. But then she goes to San Francisco as a young adult. She becomes a figure model for local artists, a prominent figure in the bohemian life of San Francisco.

And we don't know a lot about her young adulthood. We do know that she was married two or three times, according to the media. Okay. So if I could just interrupt briefly, you know, as I say, victimology is huge. And you've mentioned bohemian. And for me, when I hear the term bohemian, I think queen and bohemian rhapsody.

I really don't know what a bohemian lifestyle is. It's not hippie, but I just think it's very sort of spiritually connected. Okay. I would say just a contrast to conventional people. And in the 1920s, we are not hitting the roaring 20s yet when this happens. In the roaring 20s, you have flappers, you have women really embracing sexuality, and a lot more open-mindedness. So this is a little bit of a precursor to that.

Okay. So she is someone who has been married several times, which makes her, in my mind, framed as someone who falls in love with being in love. But I don't think that's really the case once we get into her history.

When she's 16, she marries a lumber clerk named William Christie, and they divorced after just two years in 1911 because this first marriage is very abusive, very violent.

And the thing that drew the line for Grace was when William threw a large rock through a window at a piano company in San Francisco where she was working as a secretary and he was threatening to kill her. The glass shattered everywhere. She became very scared and she wanted him arrested and said, you know, if he's not restrained, he's going to kill me. I just know it.

So she divorced him. So she already at a young age, at age 18, she's divorced from this man. And William Christie is not a predominant part of the story, but it's important to give us context on the kind of man that she had once been married to.

Well, it also speaks to whatever crime you're going to be bringing up in terms of who's the victim and who's the suspect. It speaks to a life experience that she has had. And from my perspective, is this a learning point for her or is she drawn to this type of relationship? Right. So once she's divorced from this man, William, she goes and she dates and she continues this career as a model.

And about 10 years after that divorce, when she's 28, she marries a man named Harry Barati on Christmas Eve in 1921. He is younger than she is by about seven years. So he's 21 and she's 28.

He was born in Mexico, and he was described as a musician and a songwriter, kind of a man about town. It seems like they probably matched each other's energies, very social, kind of free-spirited, somebody who's artistic, energetic.

Sounds like a good person just on the outside, like they would be compatible together because they were both connected in some ways to the Bay Area's artist community. So we're talking at least about a relationship that has potential to be a positive influence in Grace's life. Okay. So...

Now we get to a point to where they're living together? They are. They're married. They live together. The only complaint that Grace has, just to friends in general, is that she felt like the marriage to Harry was rushed by his mother. He was very close to his mother.

and it sounds like she was dying and had some very severe health problems, and she wanted to see her son married before she died. It sounds like Grace just thought, this is a little too fast, but Harry seems like a good guy on the outside.

So Grace actually is a decision maker in getting married as well. And she decided she's weighing the pros and cons and decides, well, the pros outweigh the cons. One of the cons being this is rushed. Yep. But, you know, it looks like it could work out. And so let's go for it. But it sounds like when she's talking to her friends, she's having regrets. She seems to be having a few regrets. And this all comes to a head, it seems, right?

just one year into their marriage. So they were married on Christmas Eve, 1921. The incident happens December 2nd of 1922. So this is just a few weeks shy of their one-year wedding anniversary. He's 22, she's 29.

Now let's talk about the victim. We know statistically it would be the woman who ends up dying if there's any kind of a domestic dispute. Is that right? Well, in my experience, for sure, when there are incidents of domestic violence, the women often end up being the victim. Now, I've seen cases, though, where the man is the victim.

And that's the case here. Oh, okay. So there's the apartment I mentioned in San Francisco. Harry and Grace are the only two people who live there. And on December 2nd, 1922, Harry dies of a gunshot wound to the head. There's actually two wounds, and that becomes very important, which is why I need you. Otherwise, I could solve this case on my own now.

You know, I hate ballistics. Just kidding. I could never solve this case on my own. This is a case that's complicated and one that I know comes up throughout history. So when the police are called, Grace calls the police. When she finds Harry, she says, laying on their couch. When the police come, he's unconscious. She is the only other person in the house.

And she immediately says to the police, he died by suicide. And they say, of course, tell us what happened. And she says she was in the kitchen. She heard two loud bangs. She immediately rushed to where Harry was. He was on the couch in the living room, as I said. He was wounded and despondent, and she's trying everything she could think of, she says, to help him to no avail. And so she contacts the police immediately.

the police are immediately suspicious. They think that Grace is guilty and they arrest her the same night. So something does not fly with them about Grace's story. Just from this little bit of information, maybe you have like a beat cop who is calling into you and saying, Paul, this is the only thing I know about this case. Is there any little detail that I've told you that stands out to you? Well, the two shots. Okay. This is where today,

If there is a suspected suicide, but there's multiple gunshots that have been fired, let's say to the head, then that would be eyeballed. Now, it is not impossible for somebody to have fired into their head several times. You know, it all depends on does the first bullet penetrate the skull? What brain structures are hit?

Is there a malfunctioning firearm? Does that come into play? There's a lot of factors that need to be evaluated to determine whether or not two shots could have been fired by the victim in a suicide.

However, having responded out to suicides with gunshot wounds to the head, I have not personally had a case involving two shots to the head. Well, let me tell you about this case and the results from the autopsy. And then there are experts, as you can imagine, on both sides because Grace is in trouble.

And Grace will end up on trial. And there are experts on both sides who have very different opinions. So it's good to hear that you yourself have not responded to a case where there were multiple shots from somebody who had taken their own life. But at the same time, that it is possible and we know it will be possible. There are some details that are very interesting. I think you'll think this is a fascinating case. Absolutely.

Let's start with the gun, .38 caliber bullets fired from a revolver. He is hit in three different places. Now, I don't want you to think necessarily as Paul Holes, the forensic investigator, and come to a conclusion immediately, which I know you won't until you have more information. But the experts bring up some good points on both sides. He's hit three different places. One bullet...

is sent through his right hand onto his right temple. And the second shot fires directly into his right temple. So there's two shots, but it hits three different places. The hand, you know, then the temple, and then another kind of straight into the temple. Yeah, you know, in shooting cases, this is a very typical scenario where bullets enter and exit limbs and then reenter the body, whether it be the torso, the head, etc. So,

That is very typical, something that is expected in shootings. But now I need to know a lot more about what they saw, what they found as they're evaluating these gunshot wounds and the associated evidence. We'll talk about the evidence because she's going on trial very soon.

Let's talk about what the police think could be a motive. And boy, it is slim pickings for the police. So they find a photograph of a guy named George Sterling, the poet is what he's called, which is another bohemian figure in the Bay Area. And they find it in the Barati home. And they also discover a letter dated just a few weeks before the murder. We're calling it a murder.

written by Mrs. Berati, who was, you know, Grace. They also find a letter from a different person, and it was written to Grace from this guy named Van, who asks Grace to drop him a line in Stockton when she's there next, which is about 85 miles away from San Francisco.

And so the police, I think, are saying that she was having an affair possibly with both of these men or either of these two men based on one of them having a photograph in the house and the other one of this, to me, very non-sexual letter just saying, hey, look me up when you get to Stockton, but maybe...

That line is different from the 1920s than it is now. It just seems really like thin, thin motive to me. Right. You know, I think they're doing the right thing in terms of, okay, there appear to be other individuals in her social circles. But this is where gumshoe investigation has to kick in. Now it's going out, talking to these men, talking to her friends.

trying to establish, is she involved in an affair? Is she talking about her relationship to Harry in a negative way? It has to be more than just communication. You have to start putting substance to these relationships to draw a conclusion. Well, here's a potential motive. But just because somebody has what oftentimes could be motive for a crime doesn't mean they act on that motive.

Exactly. We also, as investigators, have a problem because it's hard to discover a motive for murder in this case, I think. They talk to family and friends who, on both sides, say they seem to have a good marriage. Grace says this too. There were no incidents of violence or hostility in their marriage.

She said Harry was a great guy. His friends, everybody said they seemed to be a good couple. They follow up with the two men. No affair that anybody is willing to admit to. And none of the friends think she's had an affair or Harry's had an affair. So this seems like a nice couple just from the onset, which is a problem for investigators because they cannot come up with a good couple.

with a motive once they've really looked into the personal backgrounds of these two people for murder. Suicide's a different matter, but for murder, they seem to have a hard time finding a motive. Does that matter? Because can't just an argument for no reason break out and that's the reason why it happens? Does there have to be some sort of a bigger background event happening? Yeah.

No, and that's a misconception that is often exaggerated, if you will, within the media. If you're watching TV shows or movies, it's that law enforcement has got to find motive. And the reality is there are many cases in which you never figure out what the motive would be, but you have the evidence to prove it.

that this person is responsible for the violence. You know, so here they're looking at it from grace is the suspect and, you know, what is her motive? And oftentimes, you know, love triangles or affairs, et cetera, are motive in order for somebody to commit a homicide to improve their life.

move on from a relationship. But now we also have Grace. I mean, she initially calls this in as a suicide. And so we have to evaluate Harry and his life. And is there anything going on within his life that would be predictive of somebody who's willing to kill themselves? And sometimes, retrospectively, we call these like psychological autopsies.

where you bring in the psychologist, the psychiatrist. In this day and age, you can bring in profilers and then you compile all the information about the victimology of the person. And is there anything to indicate that,

that stands out that this is somebody who is deciding that their life is no longer worth living. And so that's going to be my focus, you know, listening to this is, okay, what did they do to indicate whether or not there is something that Harry decided I just want out of this life?

But fundamentally, and I know you told me to just set aside being the forensic investigator, you know, and it's kind of hard for me to just kind of be listening to the story eating popcorn. I'm always asking the question. I know. Is that, you know, you still have to, the crime scene, the autopsy, the physical evidence, all of this still has to

provide information as to whether or not this is homicide or suicide. Is there anything that can differentiate it? You know, and that's where, you know, the two shots, the shot through the right hand to the right temple. Right now, I'm going, okay, I've got some concerns about the assessment of this being a suicide. But I also want to know, is there a predilection on Harry's part in his past indicate that he might be willing to take his life? Yes, very much so.

Experience the glamour and danger of the roaring 20s from the palm of your hand in

In June's Journey, you have the chance to solve a captivating murder mystery and reveal deep-seated family secrets. Use your keen eye and detective skills to guide June Parker through this thrilling hidden object mystery game. June's Journey is a mobile game that follows June Parker, a New York socialite living in London. Play as June Parker and investigate beautifully detailed scenes of the 1920s while uncovering the mystery of her sister's murder. There are twists

turns, and catchy tunes, all leading you deeper into the thrilling storyline. This is your chance to test your detective skills. And if you play well enough, you could make it to the detective club. There, you'll chat with other players and compete with or against them. June needs your help, but watch out. You never know which character might be a villain. Shocking family secrets will be revealed, but will you crack this case? Find out as you escape this world

and dive into June's world of mystery, murder, and romance. Can you crack the case? Download June's Journey for free today on iOS and Android. Discover your inner detective when you download June's Journey for free today on iOS and Android. That's June's Journey. Download the game for free on iOS and Android.

So let's talk about that. There is a much stronger motive for Harry to take his own life than for Grace, it sounds like. She has said, and his friends have confirmed, that he has a history of depression and that he was in a very emotionally fraught place when he died. She said that the death of his mother was absolutely devastating, and this happened less than a year earlier. Remember, this is the mother who, it sounds like, rushed them to get married because she wanted to see her son happy.

She might have been worried about him. He had made some bad investments. He's sort of an arty guy. It doesn't sound like he had a particularly steady job, but he lost around $2,700 in a bad investment, which is $50,000 today. And they're in an apartment. They don't own property. So $50,000 is an awful lot for them, I imagine. Also, his own father died by suicide early in Harry's life.

Also, also, the building's janitor, who was the last person aside from Grace to see him, had just stopped by that night to collect their household garbage. And when he was there, he said, we have a new landlord and they're raising your rent. And Harry really got upset. The janitor confirmed this. Grace said it took a while to calm him down with soothing words. The next thing she knows, he's dead. So that's a lot.

Yeah, there's a fair amount there to indicate that suicide is a possibility with Harry. It's not like, you know, if the investigators are going out and talking to family and friends and they're going, he was full of life and was looking forward to, you know, doing this activity tomorrow or his birthday or, you know, the typical things that, you know, family and friends will say when somebody has killed themselves and they're shocked. However, most certainly it sounds like Grace is very well aware

of many of these aspects of Harry and could have capitalized on these characteristics to try to stage this homicide into a suicide based on his past.

But why? He has zero money, Paul. He has no money. It doesn't sound like he's having an affair. He doesn't sound violent. What would be her motive? People are saying they look like a happy couple, aside from Harry, you know, having bouts of depression. Well, you know, even though investigators have dug into Grace's life, you know, you can never uncover everybody's secrets unless

And those secrets may have manifested themselves in actual physical actions, but there's also secrets people have that they want to act out. Let's say maybe there's somebody that she has an interest in and would love to be able to pursue a relationship, but there's no outwardly act to be able to substantiate that. She's just feeling that. People kill to improve their lives sometimes. Right.

And this may be a situation to where Grace is going. It's not working with Harry. I'd rather have a different person in my life or I'd rather have more freedom in my life. Yeah. You would think, well, just walk away. That is the, if you're at that point, you just walk away. But,

some people will kill in order to just kind of be able to move on. And so that's one of those things that, okay, is Grace one of those persons? Did she just decide, I want to improve my life and Harry's done. But I mean, let's just admit playing the devil's advocate in the grand scheme of motives. Grace doesn't seem to have as much of a motive as other people we've talked about over the

the course of, you know, 20-odd episodes of this show. To me, and I understand what you're saying, it sounds like she could have been better off without him for a couple of different reasons. And you're right. She might have just become frustrated with him having a complete meltdown over this rent issue and some altercation happened that we don't know about. And so I'm also going to keep an open mind, especially once we get to the ballistics of

Let me tell you exactly what she told police on the exact timeline, and then you can tell me if this gives you any more information. She's been consistent from the time she tells police what happened all the way through trial because she ends up testifying on her own behalf. So this is what she says.

Here's the outline of what happened. So it's December 2nd in San Francisco. She gets home from work around 5.30 and Harriet gets home about 6. And they decide to go out to dinner. She points out she paid for it because Harriet has no money because of this bad investment. They go home and he lays down on the couch. He just wants to be quiet and not doing anything else.

He was supposed to play at a local hotel, he's a musician, at 8.30 that night. And in, let's say, two hours, he's supposed to get up and leave and go to this gig. He says, can you get me an outfit? She goes, and this sounds typical for her, she goes and picks out an outfit to wear to this gig.

And she put his revolver on with the outfit, like by the outfit. So she lays out the outfit next to him on the couch and she puts a revolver on the outfit. Okay. Which he always took with him to these late night sets because it was dangerous. And so this was very normal. No one was surprised by this. He carried a gun and

She, you know, gave it to him, and he's laying on the couch. The janitor comes by. He gives him this bad news. Harry is very upset. Grace calms him down, and she's finally got him to a place where he can just lie back on the couch and everything's okay. She says she goes into the kitchen to do the chores, and she hears...

a sound that to her sounded like an automobile backfire. She runs into the room where Harry was, and she says that he is having convulsions with blood on his face. She runs down the apartment building's office and tells the manager to call a doctor and call the police.

Okay. What do you think of that? Does that all tally to you? Well, so at least in that statement, she's only hearing a single shot. That's what she says. But I mean, you're going through trauma. What would you think? A gunshot in a small apartment is very, very loud.

Two gunshots in a small apartment would be very easy to perceive. And this is a revolver. Trigger pull, rotate the cylinder to put the next live round underneath. Trigger pull, you know, depends on the, you know, the make and model of the revolver. But generally, they would be perceived as two different shots.

I'm a little bit skeptical that she's saying a single shot. I'm also skeptical about her, you know, she is interacting with the weapon that was actually used right before it's used. Maybe she's telling the truth, but that's something that's standing out to me. Additionally, it's the financial situation. And this is something you brought up a little bit earlier in terms of

You know, they go out to eat, but she pays because he doesn't have any money, yet they're married. He's got a bunch of debt. He's now being told the rent is going up. Well, the debt and the cost of rent is also her problem. And so now it's, is there a financial motive for her to eliminate him? Of course, life insurance policy being, you know, one thing, but suicide may negate that life insurance policy.

The other aspect, though, is she seeing that if she continues staying with him, is her lifestyle, her bohemian lifestyle, going to be negatively impacted because they can no longer afford to do what she wants to be able to do. So I will point out two things. Just as a layperson in this situation, number one, Grace seems pretty good at divorce. She's been married a couple of times and divorced a couple of times.

She doesn't seem like somebody who feels like there is some sort of social stigma with being divorced. So to me, that feels a little important. I know what you're saying, but at the same time, you know, it's not unprecedented for her to leave a man behind. I think that's a good point. And number two, it did not occur to me until I was listening to you talk about this, the single shot moment.

I don't know enough about 1920s cars to say this definitively, but I bet you anything that a backfire is multiple sounds on a 1920s car, not just one sound like what we're used to. I mean, it's a big, it's a hundred year difference between engines. What do you think? Back in the days when you'd hear backfires more frequently-

you know, back in the 70s. And yeah, for sure, you could have a single backfire or you could have multiple backfires as the car is pulling away. So, you know, there is, you know, if she's just running together the audio sounds and dismissing it as a single backfire, but it was actually multiple reports. Yeah. I could see that for sure. Okay.

So we're now down to, could Harry Barati physically shoot himself twice? Does that, your understanding really when it drills down to is, what did the experts say about what are the chances that this man would have shot himself twice versus Grace?

That in part is what I'm evaluating, but I'm also wanting to evaluate the firearms discharge evidence, the trajectory of the bullets, how his hand, his right hand, could be an intermediary target in between a shot from his, must have been his left hand, into his right temple, which is a very, very awkward situation.

position to be in, does his right hand demonstrate firearms discharge evidence on the back of it, or does it demonstrate it on the palm as if he's in a defensive posture? There's some layers of complexity that if I'm assessing this case, if I were the crime scene investigator, I would be looking for all of this type of

evidence at the scene, as well as consulting with the pathologist in terms of, okay, these two bullets, what did each bullet strike? How is that going to impact the victim's ability to remain conscious, to remain having motor skills in order to be able to operate the firearm a second time? What do you want to start with? There's a debate on the velocity of the bullet.

And then there's also information about the powder marks. Those are kind of the two really big, I think, really big debates here. So which one do you prefer to hear first? Well, first, I know you gave me a very general statement as to he was struck three times. But could you be more specific about where he is struck with the bullets? Okay. So the positioning of the gun it is. Let's talk about that.

There's a doctor who gets on the stand for the state. He specializes in nervous and mental diseases, and he tells the court that he believes the second bullet could not have been fired by Harry. So this is for the prosecutor.

Because the first bullet which penetrated the bone near the right ear remained in the bone would have produced instant unconsciousness and would have destroyed nerve coordination.

So he was completely disabled after that first shot that went through his hand into the bone near his right ear. The first concern that I have is how is he sequencing the shots? How is he determining the first shot versus the second shot? Right. Whether or not you have that information, I don't know. But this is where, okay, so...

You have a bullet that's entering by his right ear and then embeds in the bone, probably on the opposite side of the skull. It's penetrating through very significant aspects of the brain that is required for just general consciousness as well as the ability to interact with the environment and sensory, all the stuff.

versus this other bullet. Is this a superficial wound? Does it go into, let's say, maybe just passes through just a very small portion of the brain? Does it even hit the brain? You know, that's what I want to know. And if that's the case, then I would say, well, there's a chance that that was the actual first shot. And then the second shot was the one that was effective.

I think everybody believes the first shot was the one that went through the hand because it sounds like the second shot they believe was the kill shot, the shot that killed him in the temple. Well, but this is the prosecutor's theory. And the reason they're saying the one that passes through the hand is the first shot is because he is aware that he's about to be shot and he's assuming a defensive posture. Right.

you know, my role in this type of case is, is okay, that's what the prosecutor believes. Then you got the defense, but what does the evidence actually say? What can I conclude from the evidence so I could guide the

you know, that the trier of fact in terms of this is what the evidence actually says. Let's try to talk about the gunpowder because maybe that'll help. Okay. So the prosecution and the defense experts contradict each other about the meaning of the powder marks that were left on Harry's temple. So there are powder marks left. We don't have images of the marks or descriptions, but we know that the experts for the DA is saying that the shooter was standing at a certain distance from

from Harry's head. And of course, the defense determines that the powder burns were actually from the muzzle of a firearm that was held by Harry himself.

And there's a ballistics expert who says that he's conducted his own experiments, and he decided the spread of powder marks on a target was greater at two inches than at eight inches. So the powder marks to this defense expert look to be one that represents a gun that's much closer to Harry's temple than the prosecution is saying the powder marks would represent from somebody standing further away. Does that sound right? Yeah.

Well, what they're doing is a firearms distance determination. And we frequently would do these types of tests. And the way that this test is conducted is with the actual gun and with the same type of ammunition used.

The firearms examiner has targets, typically fabric targets that are on cardboard, and then will fire the gun at set distances. Let's say from 24 inches to 18 inches to 12 inches. And the powder and the gases that are discharged when the firearm is used, as you get closer, you know, think about this firearms discharge like a sneeze.

Okay. If you hold your hand out 24 inches away and you sneeze, you might get a droplet or two on your hand. But as your hand gets closer to your mouth and your nose, you get a point where it becomes much more concentrated. You get a lot more stuff being deposited on your hand. Well, that's, in general, the way that firearms discharge works. And so the closer the gun is...

to the target, generally more of the unburnt and partially burnt gunpowder particles, in addition to the gases, are being deposited on the target and they become much more concentrated up until you get to a point where you're at near contact or contact where the gun is being pressed into the target. And then now all of the firearms discharge is going into the wound itself.

Most of the time with suicides, it's contact or near contact shots versus a shot from 12 inches away or obviously much further becomes almost impossible to do. So that defense expert saying that the powder particles are becoming more diffuse, the closer the gun gets...

That might be a characteristic of that particular make and model of gun and ammunition, but that also is an unusual occurrence relative to how most guns behave in terms of how the powder particles, they will become much more concentrated the closer the muzzle of the gun gets to the target. So what does that all say? Well...

Well, right now, this is part of the problem that I would have is that you have on the stand competing experts. Right. And they're each giving opinions. The distance determination, all that's doing is putting the gun close to Harry's head. Yeah. I mean, the right hand for me is absolutely critical in this case.

How is Harry's hand an intermediate target on the right side of his head, his right hand on the right side of his head, and he's shooting himself in the right side of the head. He has to be doing it with his left hand. Why is he doing that? That is highly unusual. I'm not saying it's impossible, but I need to see that in order to say, okay, there's a possibility he did do this, but it

really is a red flag from Harry having committed suicide with what I understand is going on at this point in time. Does it make a difference to you that Harry Barati was left-handed?

Well, it makes a difference in that typically they're shooting themselves in the temple. They do use their strong hand most of the time, not all the time. And when they use their strong hand, they shoot themselves on the same side of their body, on the same side of their head with their strong hand. There's no reason to try to wrap yourself

the gun around to the other side. That is highly unusual. I think that's why the investigators, when they're looking at this case, very quickly are going, this isn't suicide. This is homicide.

One of the big debates with this case was whether the hand would actually slow a bullet down enough that where he is hit, which they're saying is by the right ear and the head by the right ear, if the bullet would be slowed down enough in order to stop this instant unconsciousness that they're referring to, and then he could get a second shot in. Because the defense said that

that he could have put his hand up during that first shot if we're believing the sequence. Everybody agrees that this is the sequence. I know we don't, but everybody agrees the sequence. Both sides say first shot went through the hand. The second shot was the shot that ultimately killed him in the temple.

The defense is saying that when he tried to shoot himself the first time, his hand might have flinched, and that's how he ended up with a bullet in his hand. Not a defensive stance at all. And then that bullet was slowed down enough so that he wasn't going immediately unconscious and he could do the second shot. So that's where the defense stands.

Yeah, well, you know, and the firearms discharge evidence on his hand is also critical because his hand is going to be closer to the gun than his head and is an intermediate target. It's going to shadow that particular shot in terms of you're not going to see as much, if any, gunpowder or gases being deposited around his ear. It's all going to be on his hand. Now, is it on the palm of his hand? Is it on the backside of his hand? Backside, as far as I know. Backside, right.

Okay. Did they do a distance determination and did they render an opinion as to how far the muzzle was from the backside of his head for that shot? No, there was some, what they were saying was a velocity, determination of the velocity of the bullets, which one expert said was a 7% reduction of speed of the bullet. I'm not sure how you would get 7% reduction of speed through the bullet through the hand. But that again is the state saying, yeah, it's impossible. If he had shot himself, he would have never been able to

been awake enough to do a second shot. Under these circumstances, I could care less about the velocity of the bullet. It's going to be, you know, what did the pathologist find? Because even if the bullet is slowed down, you know, you got muzzle velocity of this bullet coming out of the end of the barrel. And then let's say it does pass through his hand.

But if it's still penetrating through his skull and going through his brain, and even though it's at a slower velocity than muzzle velocity, his brain is still being fatally injured. Doesn't matter how fast the bullet's going, those structures are still being damaged. And with

38s, you know, there is different wounding characteristics from lower velocity rounds than high velocity rounds. But this is typically when you start getting into 1,500, 2,000 feet per second, like rifle rounds, where now you have high velocity, high energy being put through the organ and you get this huge, what are called,

what's called temporary cavitation. If the tissue is an expanding type tissue, that bullet passes through so fast that that tissue moves out of the way and that can disrupt a greater amount of tissue

from that high velocity than just the wound path itself. So it can be more damaging. But when you're starting to talk about a bullet passing through fundamental structures of the brain necessary for locomotion, necessary for consciousness, necessary to sustain life, it doesn't matter how fast the bullet's going.

I agree. So when we're putting all this together based on the information that we have, we have an unhappy man, potentially an unhappy wife, even though there are people who say they seem to have a really good marriage. And the janitor says that everything was fine before he left. But when he told Harry the information, Harry broke down, Grace comforted him, everything seemed okay when he left. So there was no reason for the janitor to believe anything occurred after he closed the door. Right.

But what happened in the inconsistency with what order the shots happened and how this left-handed man did just not put a gun to his left temple? And I know we talk about this, and I don't know where you stand on this, but how much does common sense play into evidence? Because to me, if this is someone who was going to take his own life, wouldn't he make it easy on himself? It doesn't line up to me that a left-handed person would do anything other than the easiest thing with a gun. Right.

Right. Well, this being a suicide with a left-handed person shooting himself in the right side of his head through his right hand.

I do believe the investigators back in the 1920s on this case were using common sense. They're going, no, that's not how this works. You know, that is very unusual. And this is more in line with Grace coming up with the gun. We don't know where his hand, his right hand is out in space. Is he just laying there and holding his head and the bullet passes through his hand and immediately into a skull? Right. Or is it more of a defensive posture? Right.

But if that is the first shot and he's incapacitated, and then the second shot is a coup de grace shot to his right temple, you know, that is more in line with a homicide in terms of the types of the type of wounding, the type of physical evidence than in suicide. So much so, you know, for me, with the information that you've presented, I'm

I agree with the original investigators. Right now, this is, this is smacking of homicide and Grace is the only one in the house. Yeah. We don't know exactly why she would kill Harry, but it looks like she did. Yeah. And you don't have to. I mean, I have a DA friend of mine who says, well, juries always want a motive. You can't always give it to them. And,

you know, they want to be told a story with an ending and they want to understand why. It's just like anybody who listens to true crime. We want to know why these things happen. Yeah. No, no, that's, that is true. You know, that's just part of when a DA is evaluating the case, they of course would love to be able to show strong motive, you know, just it's, and to be able to put that in front of the jury. But if the evidence itself is overwhelming and you have no motive,

then the DA can still move forward and convince a jury. Well, this didn't work in this case. The DA could not convince the jury. They were out for about an hour. Grace had taken the stand and had been composed, as one might expect. And she just said, I don't understand why it happened. I couldn't understand why he would ever do this. And they were confused by the ballistics evidence. And these dueling, we talk about all the time, dueling experts, who do we believe, men in white coats,

And they acquitted her. She walks out and sort of vanishes. It looks like she got remarried and she died in 1959, which is 35 years after she was acquitted. But there just was not, for the jury, not enough convincing evidence.

Yeah, you know, and I can see where a jury could be confused. And in some ways, she's a sympathetic persona. And I can imagine, especially back in the 1920s, you know, the idea of a woman committing this type of crime was probably foreign to most people. Even today, you know, that's

Usually it's a surprise where you go, oh, really? You know, my suspect is a woman, but it does happen. Yeah. Women are very capable of committing this type of crime, and sometimes you don't know why they commit this kind of crime. And one more thing I thought that was really interesting is, remember, Grace was a big part of the artist community in San Francisco. Yeah.

She decides on behalf of the defense, of course, to have some of her friends who are artists to mock up images showing every possible variety of posture in which a man might take his own life.

And the judge lets it in, and all the jury sees these illustrations of the various ways that Harry could have taken his own life. And, you know, she is described as this mysterious, emotionless, beautiful woman in this courtroom. But it sounds like that actually might have influenced the jury, these sketches. So it—

I feel like the same way you did, which is why at the beginning of this episode I said, I think there are people who did it. There wasn't enough to prove it. And it just does not, to me, make much sense the way that the defense had positioned this at all. No. And I agree with that assessment. You know, at least...

The verbal description of how Harry was shot is very much more in line with what I would see and expect from a homicide than from suicide. Yep. Well, boy, what a case. Grace Barotti, someone else we think might have gotten away with murder. We encounter a lot of those on Buried Bones, and I think that even though the end result is not satisfying, the journey that you and I take is usually a very satisfying one because...

We learn more and more about human behavior and about criminals and how they get away with things and all of that, I think, helps people who listen to this show understand later on in life why these things happen. They reverberate through history. No, for sure. But also, this is part of building an encyclopedia of knowledge, of cases.

You know, that's what I did during the course of my career. So, you know, every single case I went out on, I learned from. And that, after 30 years, allows me to be able to maybe assess a case with a level of expertise better than a layperson or somebody that is just starting out in their career. Yep. Well, next week, we'll have another case for you to assess expertly, Paul Hulls. I will give it my best shot. Good. Thanks.

This has been an Exactly Right production. For our sources and show notes, go to exactlyrightmedia.com slash buriedbones sources. Our senior producer is Alexis Amorosi. Research by Maren McClashen and Kate Winkler-Dawson. Our mixing engineer is Ryo Baum. Our theme song is by Tom Breifogle. Our art

work is by Vanessa Lilac. Executive produced by Karen Kilgariff, Georgia Hardstark, and Danielle Kramer. You can follow Buried Bones on Instagram and Facebook at Buried Bones Pod. Kate's most recent book, All That Is Wicked, a Gilded Age story of murder and the race to decode the criminal mind, is available now. And Paul's best-selling memoir, Unmasked, My Life Solving America's Cold Cases, is also available now.