Murder in Notting Hill PT 2
54:07 Share

This is exactly right. Experience the glamour and danger of the roaring 20s from the palm of your hand in

In June's Journey, you have the chance to solve a captivating murder mystery and reveal deep-seated family secrets. Use your keen eye and detective skills to guide June Parker through this thrilling hidden object mystery game. June's Journey is a mobile game that follows June Parker, a New York socialite living in London. Play as June Parker and investigate beautifully detailed scenes of the 1920s

while uncovering the mystery of her sister's murder. There are twists, turns, and catchy tunes, all leading you deeper into the thrilling storyline. This is your chance to test your detective skills. And if you play well enough, you could make it to the detective club. There, you'll chat with other players and compete with or against them. June needs your help, but watch out.

You never know which character might be a villain. Shocking family secrets will be revealed, but will you crack this case? Find out as you escape this world and dive into June's world of mystery, murder, and romance. Can you crack the case? Download June's Journey for free today on iOS and Android.

Discover your inner detective when you download June's Journey for free today on iOS and Android. That's June's Journey. Download the game for free on iOS and Android. Listen up. I'm Liza Traeger. And I'm Cara Clank, and we're the hosts of the true crime comedy podcast, That's Messed Up, an SVU podcast. Every Tuesday, we break down an episode of Law & Order SVU, the true crime it's based on, and we chat with an actor from the episode.

Over the past few years, we've chatted with series icons like BD Wong, Kelly Giddish, Danny Pino, and guest stars like Padgett Brewster and Matthew Lillard. And just like an SVU marathon, you can jump in anywhere. Don't miss new episodes every Tuesday. Follow That's Messed Up, an SVU podcast, wherever you get your podcasts. Dun-dun!

I'm Kate Winkler-Dawson. I'm a journalist who's spent the last 25 years writing about true crime. And I'm Paul Holes, a retired cold case investigator who's worked some of America's most complicated cases and solved them. Each week, I present Paul with one of history's most compelling true crimes. And I weigh in using modern forensic techniques to bring new insights to old mysteries.

Together, using our individual expertise, we're examining historical true crime cases through a 21st century lens. Some are solved and some are cold, very cold. This is Buried Bones. ♪♪

Hey, Kate, how are you doing? I'm doing well. I've been nonstop reading the next part of what we're going to be talking about, the Vera Page story. I think we just need to kind of jump into it because there's so much to cover. You said in part one you were pretty impressed so far with Dr. Spilsbury as a forensic pathologist and everything he was able to do in 1931, so long ago. Well, I think what I like most

Because you often don't get this from pathologists, but I like the fact that he was taking a look at the physical evidence, whether that be the medical evidence or the physical evidence on Vera's body, on her clothing, and was trying to discern information to help give the investigation some leads.

We don't see that very often from pathologists today. So for me, that is just reassuring that somebody is thinking. Yeah, he's very Sherlock Holmesian, I think, Spilsbury. And if you read more of his cases, he's someone who is a puzzle maker. He is somebody who is able to put these puzzle pieces together and

and put together a narrative, which, believe me, the Notting Hill police need at this point because they are desperately trying to figure out what happened to 10-year-old Vera Page in 1931 when she went about a 15-minute walk to go visit her Aunt Minnie and get her swimming certificates in her red beret and then went missing. And then her body is found 36 hours later in a garden of a private home, but nobody in the home is a suspect anymore.

And Dr. Spilsbury thinks that based on the coal dust, based on some wax, based on the fact that she was sexually assaulted, that this was done in private, probably in a coal cellar, but based on her advanced decomposition, that her body was kept in a warm environment, in a warm room until she was deposited on that Wednesday morning in this garden. And you said all that tallied with what you would have thought would have been the results of this case also so far. No, that is correct.

Now, I know you kind of left me on a cliffhanger indicating that Vera, instead of walking straight back to her parents' house, that witnesses ended up placing her somewhere else after she was at her aunt's house? Yes. And I did leave you on a cliffhanger because this just scared me to death. And maybe...

It won't scare other parents, but I am pretty overprotective of my kids, and I know that you can be too. So what we know is that Vera's school friends saw her after she left Aunt Minnie's house.

So up until now, we just thought this little girl disappeared maybe from the doorstep of Aunt Minnie's house 15 minutes away from her home. And then her body is found about a mile down the road from where her parents live. But her friends said no. We saw her. And everybody is excellent with time, Paul. It's amazing. And I know there were public clocks all over the place in London at this time.

She had gone without permission towards a shopping street, a very busy shopping street, very close to Minnie's house. Everything was decorated for Christmas, and her friends bumped into her around 6 p.m. This is an hour and 15 minutes after she left Minnie's house. And this is around the time where her dad started canvassing the neighborhood trying to figure out where she is.

They said she was very excited because she wanted to buy some soap for a Christmas present, presumably for somebody in her family.

And this was a no-shit moment for me because, you know, the kids, these are little kids who saw her. They know exactly who she is. This is not mistaken identity. She's wearing the red beret. She's got these swimming certificates in her hand. And here she is on a busy street by herself, a 10-year-old. Yeah, you know that. And, of course, that's such a scary situation. But I'm immediately jumping to, okay, so she herself is excited about going and buying soap.

So this is a shopping area. And my mind immediately goes, okay, which stores along the shopping area would be selling the soap that Vera is wanting? And I would be wanting to go to those shops in case she made it all the way inside one of those. It sounds like she did. Because another person who knows Vera says she saw her 45 minutes after that. She

She remembers her holding these swimming certificates, and it seems like she was on her way away from her home. It sounds like she was a half a mile away from her house. So I don't know if she was going away or if the shopping center was very far away from Minnie's, but she is now, instead of not far at her aunt's house, she is now a half a mile away from her home, which is about a mile away from

from where her body was deposited. And that is the last person to have seen her alive. And is this in the residential area or is this still in the shopping area? Okay, so she's left the shopping area and is now walking in a residential space. Right, about a half a mile from her home, which is not that far. I mean, I've, you know...

I can run a half a mile. And so for a 10-year-old, it seems very far. But for me, especially living in London and New York and San Francisco, it wouldn't faze me at all. But now we're getting further away from Aunt Minnie's. We're getting further away from her home. And, you

you know, still about a mile from where her body was deposited. We don't know why she was over there. Well, I'm just kind of wondering, is she lost? Could be. That's where, you know, what is her familiarity with this particular area? Was she frequently, you know, walking around in these neighborhoods so she knew exactly where she was going?

Or did she get to the shopping center and then take the wrong turn down the wrong street, you know, thinking it would take her home and it didn't? Well, now there's something even more interesting. So the Thursday after Vera's murder, once, of course, the newspapers got a hold of this story, a woman came forward with some information. Her name is Kathleen Short. And she says that she lives at a house on Stanley Crescent.

This is about a half a mile from Vera's home residence. And this is about, you know, where she was when the last witness saw her alive. She says that 9 p.m. on Tuesday, 24 hours later, she found a red beret outside her house. Oh, wow.

And she said she brought it inside and saved it. She'd also found strips of cardboard where she thought probably now thinking back, she said, I think it's the swimming certificates. But she threw them in the garbage. And so it sounds like, number one, these weren't mementos. They were discarded. Like you had kind of predicted that he had maybe snatched her and left behind the, you

the beret, but that this was something 24 hours later that had been sitting there in front of this woman's house. Yeah, so this may be the abduction location. Now, you know, something that would easily fall off of Vera's head, you know, during an abduction is just left there. It's possible the offender could have tossed it, you know, at some point after that, but...

Based on the witness that saw Vera walking in this general area, and so now you have a red beret just laying on the ground, and this woman sees it. She throws it away, right? Yeah. She threw away the certificate. She kept the beret. Okay. All right. Right now, I think I lean towards this very likely either at that location where those items are found or real close to that is where the offender had the initial interaction with Vera. Here's the problem.

Kathleen Short says that Tuesday night, 24 hours after Vera was abducted, she saw that beret, 9 p.m. She hadn't seen it earlier. Oh. Right. But the police noticed that her coal cellar had no lock on it.

So now what do we do? Now what do we do? We have an accessible coal cellar, which honestly was unusual because in this time period, people would have gone in and stolen coal, which was very expensive. Well, this becomes considered as a crime scene, you know, and so now it's processing that coal cellar and looking for evidence of either Vera being killed down there or disturbances or

you know, of course you're going to have the soot, you know, and the coal that is found on Vera's body. But do you also have the paraffin wax? Do you have the sources of the wax, the candle wax in this particular cellar? Is there any evidence? Is there shoe prints in the soot on the floor? Is there any other items that came from Vera? Is there anything from the offender that could be in the space? So this evidence,

has to be considered at least a potential crime scene and processed accordingly. I agree. And, you know, Spilsbury says this is helpful information, but it's nothing conclusive because the fact that he believes she was kept in a warm area, if it happened in this cellar, which it could have, she was not there very long. And he says she must have been transported somewhere. That being said,

The police say, OK, if this happened, would you all have heard her scream? You must have been able to hear her scream because they live right above this coal cellar. Right. And Kathleen says, maybe, but we didn't because we jam out on our gramophone in the evenings and they blast it.

And so they do a little test. The police say, turn the music up full blast like you normally would. And the police go down to the cellar and close the door and they scream bloody murder. And they said, we can't hear a thing. The shorts say, no, we can't hear you.

I mean, not scientific, but it seems effective that this guy could have had, if this is the seller, he would have had privacy and the people upstairs wouldn't have heard. Yeah, you know, and that goes to you. If there had been any screams from Vera or if there had been a commotion during a struggle...

It would indicate that, yeah, there's a possibility that witnesses to these sounds, even when they're home, this could easily have happened. But the one thing I do want to point out, in all likelihood, without even knowing who the offender is, but in all likelihood, we're dealing with an offender that is dominant to Vera, physically dominant. And so I would not suspect that she had much ability to resist that.

There may have been the ability by this type of offender to completely contain any sounds just because he's so physically dominant, hand over the mouth or immediate strangulation. You know, when you're being strangled, you're not able to scream. So, you know, there may not have been any sounds coming up out of that coal cellar if there is being attacked down there. Not from the coal cellar. But now we have two women concerned.

On Monday night, around 8.30 p.m., they say, they don't know Vera, but they say they heard the scream of a child in pain around 8.30 p.m. that night. So this is an hour and a half, hour and 45 minutes after Vera is last seen in the shopping area, which is called Ladbroke Grove. So they hear a scream.

We don't know if this is Vera or not, but this is what they report, and they don't know her. Okay. And are they given any statements as to where the direction that they think the scream is coming from? You know, they say that it's coming from the area of a neighborhood, Ladbroke Grove. It's the area where she was window shopping. They can't be specific about what house it was, but they do think it was from the residential part of it.

But let's get a hold of this timeline real quick because I'm really confused and maybe, you know, you can help me sort it out. So...

She goes to Aunt Minnie's. She gets there. She leaves. She sneaks off over to this shopping district because she wants to buy soap. People see her not in pain, not kidnapped up until about 6.45 p.m., where she's, you know, half a mile from her parents in this residential mixed shopping district. About an hour, 45 minutes after that, someone hears a child in pain scream and

And that's it. We don't see her again. But 24 hours later...

The owner of a house walks out and sees a red beret that night and the swimming certificates, by the way. The coal cellar is unlocked, but the police can't say if anything happened down there. And Spilsbury says if it did, he moved her quickly because she was in a warm environment. So what happened between Monday when they heard the scream and when the beret was discovered dead?

Tuesday near the coal cellar. What happened in that 24-hour period? Because Kathleen Short says, I did not see a beret in front of my house until nine o'clock that night. So what would have happened? Well, I think what's happening is we're dealing with ground zero here. This neighborhood is ground zero for the offender. He has an anchor point here, whether he lives in this area or

or he works in this area. That's right now is what I'm thinking is going on because he's now attacking Vera in all likelihood in this area. And then if he lives, let's say, two miles away and takes Vera two miles away, why would he come back with her beret and her certificates to this neighborhood to dispose of him? He wouldn't. So it sounds like everything is happening now.

somewhere around this coal cellar.

And this is now investigatively, this is where I'm descending with a team and now trying to figure out who all lives in this area, who has access to this area, who flows through this area to see if I can develop some suspects and possibly a location where her body had been kept. So I have a little theory, and you might say it doesn't make sense. My theory is that this coal cellar is not the coal cellar where it happened. Right.

because of a couple things. Number one, everybody had a coal cellar, and that includes the killer, if he lives in this neighborhood like we think. Number two, people went in and out of coal cellars all the time for coal, and it's December. It is freezing. It's unpredictable when somebody would have come down here. He would have had to have some time to sexually assault her and kill her. So that's a really big risk, even late at night, because people really were coming in and out of these cellars.

I wonder if it's his cellar, and as you said, he's just dumping this stuff in front of somebody else's house just to get rid of it. I don't see him risking being caught by going to somebody else's cellar. No, and that, I completely agree with that. You know, this initial cellar, co-cellar that's unlocked...

you still have to process it as a crime scene. But during that processing, you may discover, okay, we don't think this is the location where she's being attacked or killed. But considering the timeline, the witness statements, the beret, the certificate,

This is where ground zero. It's now going into those residents, looking at those coal cellars, looking at other aspects, seeing, you know, when you communicate with the homeowner, whoever's at that residence, you know, somebody not acting right. Somebody seemed nervous.

So right now, through the investigative efforts with gathering the witness statements, they have focused in, I think, on the proper geographic location. Now it is gumshoe detective work at this point. This is boots on the ground and going door to door. Spilsbury has not given up on getting more evidence from the body.

He notices that during his autopsy that there is something in her, the inner crook of her right elbow after she's gone through rigor. And he pries it open and he looks and it's a finger bandage. So I don't want to tease you with DNA evidence that does us no good. I know. I know. I'm frustrated, too. But...

What the police in 1931 say is, well, at least if we get a suspect, we can look and see if he has a deep cut. Because this is what he says, and I don't know this word. She did not have any noticeable finger injuries, but it seemed to be able to fit a man's finger. So it's a larger bandage. He said the bandage was stained with super-rating wound bandages.

Do you know what that means? This is a process of pus forming. So now you have white blood cells that are flowing into this wound that this bandage is on. And so it may have a red, reddish tone to it with blood, but

But there's also going to be a more dilute aspect to it because now you have this clear pus, unless it's very infected, where now, of course, people are familiar with more of that greenish look. Is that significant at all? Does it really matter? He has a cut on his finger, right? I don't know if you can draw a conclusion that he would have a cut on his finger. Is this bandage only something that could be put on a finger or is this something that could be put on any part of the body? They call it a finger bandage. So it was meant for a finger and he said it smells like ammonia.

And there are bits of lint caught in the bandage. And Spilsbury says this must have fallen off his finger when he was depositing her body in the garden or at some point. Or it was something that where her body was kept was just on the floor where her body was laid. Yep. You know, and end up getting caught up on, you know, into her clothing or onto her skin, you know, so...

with that, assuming that this bandage was on the offender at some point, you know, yes, you have to pay attention. Does this person have any

a wound. You know, if you're going door to door, look at the resident's hands, see if there's anything that stands out in terms of maybe a fresher or weeping injury or maybe, you know, the person would likely have another bandage on. Okay. Well, it's just another little piece of information. We will have a suspect here in a little bit, even though I told you it's an unsolved case. There are a lot of little details and we have to figure out, you know, as this all add up. So,

Transportation, police are still trying to figure out if this is the space, if this is the geographic area where all of this happened. How did he get with no car, most likely, how did he get her from this block, this coal cellar, this area out?

a mile away to the front garden. And as I said before, car ownership really shot up in the mid-30s, but not now. So it's likely, Spilsbury says, and the investigators say, that he figured out a different way to transport her, which is disturbing because then it really kind of widens out again who could have taken her there. Well, think about this, Kate, is that

This offender, especially at the time of the day that he likely deposited her body, if he's transporting her body, he's not walking with her and carrying a sack. He would stand out.

So I'm assuming he's savvy enough that he is going to utilize some sort of mechanism that would be routinely seen in the neighborhood. Like maybe the carriage that is holding a bunch of milk, you know, something like that, where people just assume that this is.

Right.

So you mentioned a sled or some sort of a wagon. Yeah. Or a wheelbarrow. Yeah, there you go. So the police go back to 89 Addison where she was found. And there's a woman who is interviewed. Her name's Margaret Key. She says at 640 in the morning, three hours before the milkman discovers Vera's body.

She saw a guy pushing a wheelbarrow at a heavily trafficked intersection in Notting Hill near Addison Avenue, not in front of 89 Addison, but near the location three hours beforehand. She gives him a basic description of the guy. They say what was in the wheelbarrow. And she said he had a large bundle, which was covered in red fabric that had like a knitted fringe on.

This is not that uncommon because laborers use wheelbarrows in London all the time. But this was a weird thing for him to cart around early in the morning and just something really made her uncomfortable about him. So this is someone where they're saying that's how he might have gotten her there. Yeah, I'm liking this, actually. This kind of fits with what I was saying. It would be something that at least would somewhat blend into a routine activity, but

but he doesn't pull it off completely if this is truly the offender disposing of Vera's body. So now you have this very...

observant woman going, that doesn't look right. So I'm liking this. This is sounding good. But that had to have looked more normal than a guy pushing a wheelbarrow at 10 p.m. at night or one in the morning. At least you can look at this guy with a wheelbarrow at 640 in the morning and saying, somebody off to some kind of job that happened all the time. But for some reason, this man really stood out. And the police...

are looking everywhere. They are in hospitals trying to figure out if somebody was treated for a wound on their finger because of the blood and the amount of ammonium. It looks like it was a serious wound on his finger. They go to chemists. They say, did anybody buy bandages? They start talking to men who had been convicted of sex crimes until they get to Margaret Key, and she says, listen, this guy was doing something really weird. I don't know what happened. It's a weird bundle to have in a wheelbarrow. They eventually...

Narrow it down to one person who seems to fit a few different things. And this is where we need to really think about the circumstantial evidence here. Experience the glamour and danger of the roaring 20s from the palm of your hand in

In June's Journey, you have the chance to solve a captivating murder mystery and reveal deep-seated family secrets. Use your keen eye and detective skills to guide June Parker through this thrilling hidden object mystery game. June's Journey is a mobile game that follows June Parker, a New York socialite living in London. Play as June Parker and investigate beautifully detailed scenes of the 1920s

while uncovering the mystery of her sister's murder. There are twists, turns, and catchy tunes, all leading you deeper into the thrilling storyline. This is your chance to test your detective skills. And if you play well enough, you could make it to the detective club.

There, you'll chat with other players and compete with or against them. June needs your help, but watch out. You never know which character might be a villain. Shocking family secrets will be revealed, but will you crack this case? Find out as you escape this world and dive into June's world of mystery, murder, and romance. Can you crack the case? Download June's Journey for free today on iOS and Android.

Discover your inner detective when you download June's Journey for free today on iOS and Android. That's June's Journey. Download the game for free on iOS and Android.

His name is Percy Rush, and he was interviewed by police two days after Vera was discovered. So let's think about the criminal profiling. You said that this is a suspect who probably was able to overpower her, you know, pretty easily. He was described as a short, thick-set man.

And he absolutely matches the physical description that Key gave of the guy pushing this weird wheelbarrow. And he works as a launderer, somebody who does laundry.

So already we have a couple of things ticked off here. Somebody who's obviously physically capable. It's not like it would be difficult with a 10-year-old, but she could have run. She could have screamed and might have screamed. And, you know, he is somebody who seems like even though he's short, he could be a pretty imposing figure for a 10-year-old. Oh, no, absolutely. But also it's like, where does he live? Where does he work? Right. We're getting to that, Paul. You need to...

Simmer down, Pepper. Come on. I need more. I need more. Okay.

So let's get into his criminal history because he does have some, and I know that we say it does count. This is a long list. He was convicted of indecent exposure multiple times. He got prison time for it. And a man matching his physical description was reported by numerous women between 1929 and 1931 when this happened. He had been exposing himself to them in public.

And in 1931, the same year, earlier in the year that Vera went missing and was murdered, he had exposed himself to two young schoolgirls. And Percy says, you're crazy. I didn't do any of this. And nothing really had been formally filed until about 1927. Oh, before 1927. He had done some jail time for indecent exposure. But then after 1927...

Nothing really happened to him. He had been around, but he does have this history of sexual crime. So he ticks up on our list, right? Yes. How old is he at the time of Vera's homicide? 41. So earlier in his life, he's an exhibitionist. He's an exhibitionist that's approaching both adult women as well as exposing himself to schoolgirls, you said. Yep.

Sometimes exhibitionists, that's all they do. They get this thrill of causing, you know, hey, here I am, look at me, and the reaction that these women have. And they get sexual gratification from doing that. They also masturbate about reliving those types of exposures. However, we've seen offenders that will escalate

And even though he doesn't have any law enforcement contact for exhibition indecent exposure since, what, 1927? Right. In all likelihood, he is very possibly peeping cases that aren't being reported to law enforcement. He may even have sexual assaults. But now you have a 10-year-old girl who

It sounds like she is an absolute victim of opportunity considering the circumstances. You know, she's out wandering around and takes a path that is not routine for her. It's not like she's doing this every night and somebody could lie in wait knowing she's going to come. This is where somewhere along her travels that night, he spotted her and he saw, I have a victim here. I have a little more info for you.

Okay. So Percy's sleazy. There's no getting around that. He has a bad reputation for, you know, being inappropriate with women. And of course, we talked about the indecent exposure and with the schoolgirls. But when police question him, he says, I don't know anything about this. I would never kill anybody. I would never sexually assault a kid. I am a homebody. I almost never leave my house without my wife, except sometimes I go visit my parents. Okay.

Whose names are Albert and Alice Rush. And I know you don't remember this, but they live on the top floor of Vera Page's house. Think Silence of the Lambs. You covet what you see. Yeah. Okay. So he's got an anchor point in the same residential structure as the victim.

And investigatively, are they able to place him at that location that, what was it, a Monday night that Vera went to her aunt's house? Yes. Let me unravel everything that the police are connecting before I answer that question. So let me go through kind of the timeline here. Okay. So he says, I know Vera. And he actually says, I knew Vera Page. She was a sweet, pretty little girl.

I have never given her sweets or money or toys, which is a weird thing to say, as an aside. I have seen her playing in the streets outside her own home. I last saw her about three weeks ago. And then he says, I don't know if I would recognize her if I saw her on the street.

which is completely contradictory to what he just told the police. So he is admitting that he has seen her. He has said, I've never given her anything. I guess he's trying to absolve himself of maybe the police think I, you know, I'm trying to bribe her into going away with me. But I wonder if that's actually what happened and he's letting that slip. What do you think? Well, this kind of goes back to this scenario that I brought up of Vera may have just voluntarily left

gone with somebody like Percy. He's somebody that she sees on a regular basis. There's a level of comfort there, even if there isn't a formal, if you want to call it a friendship, but he would be somebody who could very easily walk up to her while she's out wandering around and say, hey, I know a shortcut. I'll get you back home. Whatever the ruse is.

So you are going to tell me where his house is and where he works, right? I'm still waiting for that. So he and his wife, Percy and his wife, live close by. And he is questioned a lot about what his whereabouts were that night. So let's go through the whereabouts real quick. And then we'll talk about the physical evidence because Spillsbury works very hard to connect him.

So, Percy said that the police asked for a detailed description of his whereabouts on December 14th. He said he had been at work as a launderer from 8.30 in the morning till 5.55 p.m. with a lunch break between 1 and 2 p.m. The last time she was seen happy and alive was about 6.45 p.m. Yeah.

So he took the bus to and from work, but after work, he decided to walk home because he knew his wife was visiting her mother. And Percy admitted that he did not like to be home alone. He said he made a purchase at Woolworth's and left about 7 p.m., which is about where Vera was shopping. He looked at shop windows on his way home.

He passed through Stanley Crescent, which is where her beret was found. The woman found the beret.

He went to Blenheim Crescent, which is near Vera's home. But he was back at his house by about 8.15, where his wife was home waiting. And they went to bed about 10.45. And the wife swears by this. He was home at 8.15. We went to sleep at 10.45. He was with me that whole time. But it leaves a big gap between if we even believe that he left work at 5.55, between 5.55 and

and 8:15 if we believe the wife. Oh, no, for sure. So there's this window of time in which really that overlaps with Vera's travels as well as Vera's likely abduction time. The question, of course, is where does Vera's body end up and what does he have access to? He's got access to his own residence.

The wife is out visiting mom at Vera's residence, right? After work, decided to walk home because he knew that his wife was with her mother. Not at Vera's residence, though his parents lived at Vera's residence. We don't know where her parents lived, but she was gone. So there is a possibility. There's nobody else home at his residence. Is it possible that he could have taken Vera there and hidden her at his own house somewhere

where the wife, once she comes home, wouldn't discover Vera accidentally? And could Vera have been kept at that location for the timeframe that Dr. Spillsbury is indicating, 36 hours? And then, of course, does he have a wheelbarrow that matches the description of the wheelbarrow that the witness said? Don't jump the gun, Paul, but I have a decomp question.

If this works out, and the last time we saw Vera happy was at 645, and he says, I left Woolworths near where Vera was around 7 o'clock, and his wife, let's say, got home at 8 o'clock. Is it possible that he actually did this murder in the warmth of his house, and before his wife got home, he moved her to the coal cellar

So the reverse. So this doesn't happen in a coal cellar. She is dumped in a coal cellar for safekeeping. Does the deep comp that we're talking about still work in that way? Or is it still...

too cold for there to be any kind of decomposition over an hour or however long. He didn't have very much time unless he hid her like in a closet inside. Well, there's so many variables to, I think, be conclusive. I'm having to rely upon what you've said, that these coal cellars, in essence, are, you know, they're like freezers, right? Oh, yeah. Yeah, absolutely. I would be skeptical that Vera's body after 36 hours would be

showing anything that Spilsbury would call advanced state of decomposition. Now, of course, I'm not seeing the characteristics on her body that he's now saying is advanced state of composition because I've seen different pathologists use different descriptors to

where one pathologist may say, okay, there's bloating, there's some marbling going on, advanced state of decomposition, or another pathologist may say, well, this is a moderate state of decomposition. You know, it's not, there isn't a hard and fast cutoff. So that's where there could be maybe a gray area with Spillsberry's assessment using that description where it is possible, the scenario you're talking about, she is killed in the residence upstairs,

And then she's down in the coal cellar. And of course, even when it's cold down there, decomposition does happen. It's just...

slowed down. So right now, I couldn't say one or the other scenarios as possible or as more likely. This is where now when you have suspect statements and deconvoluting the statements relative to the crime scene, both from a timeline standpoint, as well as geographic locations, as well as some of the oddities. These offenders, if they had committed the crimes,

they will put in details that overlap with aspects of the actual crime itself. Let's say you have kids that were playing with their dog out front somewhere that are witnesses in the case, and the suspect throws that kind of detail into a statement saying, well, I was never over there, but I was over here, and there's some kids playing with a dog outside. So you start to see that kind of merging of

And this seems to be what Percy's doing to a point. But his geographic locations, his criminal history, his physical description, this window of time in which his wife is not present within his own residence, the red flags are going off for me. And now it's like, okay, what physical evidence—

is present where I can now corroborate that, you know, I've got a theory. He took Vera back to his own residence when wife wasn't home, killed her, and then hid the body. Is there physical evidence to support that? If not, what other location does he have access to where he could have killed and stashed Vera and then went home and then subsequently got rid of Vera's body 36 hours later? And by the way, what if even one person is wrong about the time? Yeah.

What if the wife is wrong? What if the 6.45 p.m. witness is wrong? What if he got her at 6 as soon as the school kids left and he left work earlier than 5.55, which is pretty bad?

is pretty specific. What if everybody is off by 20 minutes and then he has plenty of time? I mean, I hate to bring up John Reginald Christie, who is the worst Looney Tunes serial killer I had ever written about, but he put women in his kitchen. He walled them into the kitchen. He very quickly put his dead wife under the floorboards of their parlor. He stored people there for months and it started to get a little stinky, but, you know, he was able to cover all that up.

But let's go through the physical evidence that by the end you're going to say all circumstantial because that's what I think. I might be wrong, but that's what I think. So let's just tick through it. We don't have to spend a ton of time on it. They search his house. There is a red tablecloth with fringe, which seems like the red fabric that the witness said the guy who matched his description was carrying in a bundle on this wheelbarrow. Okay.

But, you know, Red French on a tablecloth could have been anything. They find a paraffin rag in his coal cellar. He says, I use paraffin all the time to clean. I was cleaning my stove, as a matter of fact.

There are candles that seem to match the kind of candle wax that were on her jacket. They take his coat. They find coal dust. Duh. Everybody had it on them. But they also find semen on his coat, which, you know, I don't want to talk about this too long. Wouldn't have shocked me just as a normal person. I mean, is that weird on his jacket? Well...

No. Without being judgy. And I don't want to talk about this very long. I know. You know, there needs to be more nexus between the semen stain on his own jacket and the possibility that it has any relationship to do with Vera's sexual assault and homicide.

Back in 1931, they would not have been able to establish that. And not to be overly gross, but it's not unusual with some men to find semen, their own semen everywhere. You know, it's just... That is gross. Thanks for telling me. It's human nature stuff, right? So that's where it's like, oh, he's got semen on his jacket. Today, we would be going, well, it's Vera's DNA mixed with that semen. Right. Right.

While moving quickly past the semen on his jacket, they find a pajama cord in his pocket, which Spillsbury says could have been the ligature that we're talking about. He says, I used it as a belt. Give me a break. But now that we know about the wheelbarrow, is this still maybe the theory that he tied it around her neck properly?

just to make sure that his hands did the job and killed her? Or is it some way maybe tied her down somehow into the wheelbarrow so she wouldn't bobble around and knock the red tablecloth off of the body as they were going down cobblestone streets? There's multiple possibilities. You know, offenders do package bodies, you know, and they'll use binding material and that could leave marks on these bodies. And it has nothing to do with

the actual commission of the violence while the victim's alive. The ligature mark on the neck after manual strangulation, you know, what I talked about in the first episode, I still think that's a possibility. But also, I've seen situations in which, like, if Vera is decomposing...

You could have this what we call purging that's coming out of her nose and her mouth, even though she has no bleeding injuries, you know, with open wounds. But this this type of purging that's happening, he may have just tied off a canvas bag over her head using a form of binding material that could have left some of these marks intact.

So it just depends. You know, all of that is a possibility. If I had photographs where I could see what this ligature mark looked like, I could probably better interpret why that ligature mark is present. Yeah, that's a big mystery. And another piece of circumstantial evidence is, by the way, he did have a bad cut on his finger. But people who were launderers did, and they used ammonia all the time.

And his co-worker said he got it a couple of weeks ago, and then a couple of others said, I think he recently got it. Useless. Nothing was helpful. And he says, by the way, I tossed that bandage into my fireplace. So it's not my bandage that you found in the crook of her arm. More circumstantial evidence, but it all sort of paints a portrait of

that is very ugly of Percy Rush. The circumstantial evidence, each item by itself, really is unimpressive. Now, you start stacking that evidence, then it gets a little bit stronger. But right now, I don't think it rises to the level where I'm absolutely convinced. I am leaning towards Percy is Vera's killer. No question about it.

But does law enforcement have a strong enough case beyond a reasonable doubt? There may be probable cause, but that's weak. I personally would want to continue digging down on Percy and see if I could strengthen this.

Yeah, it gets a little more complicated because the police want to know what he did on Tuesday, where the red beret was and where he had potentially moved the body. And he said, I was at work and then I came home by 7.15. I was there the whole night. And he said, I was at work and then I came home by 7.15.

And he said, my wife would have woken up in the middle of the night if I had left. I couldn't sneak out. One, spouses and alibis. We don't believe him. But two, we think that he left early in the morning and it was raining and he's not going to load a wheelbarrow up with a murder victim and take her in the middle of the rain. So I don't think that does anything either. It's just difficult because nobody can confirm Percy's alibi. More circumstantial evidence. He always visited his parents.

in Vera's building on Monday nights or Thursday nights, and he didn't show up Monday, which was unusual. He walked home, which was unusual. So there are things that are out of Percy's character that change very specifically when Vera Page goes missing and is murdered. Yeah, and did he have any connection to, what was it, Stanley Crescent, where her red beret and the certificates were found? So he passed by it. These are all within a mile. Everything is within a mile of themselves. So he didn't live there. He passed through it.

It didn't seem like that was, you know, a place that was significant. I don't know why he would have dumped stuff there. We still don't know. We're assuming something happened in his coal cellar. We know he had access to his house for at least a few hours before his wife got home. So...

I don't know. I think there's less to do with Stanley Crescent and more to do with where he was. Under that set of circumstances, that's where I go back to my original assessment. And he's following Vera as she's wandering around. She's not seen with a man. You know, these witnesses don't see her walking with a man. So she's by herself. And she's last seen near or in that Stanley Crescent neighborhood. So now this is where I think this is where the abduction occurred.

So this was really difficult because police are having a hard time doing what you're talking about, which is how does he kidnap a girl, sexually assault her, murder her? She's insane.

in a coal cellar, which is cold. She's in a warm room over a 36-hour period, and he deposits her body. How did all of this actually happen? And he didn't get caught, except that a woman who can no longer identify him sees him pushing a wheelbarrow. She, Margaret Kay, tries to

identify him in a lineup and can't do it, which we wouldn't really trust her, I don't think, anyway. I mean, this is a split second and nobody's significant in her life, but nobody can confirm anything about Percy Rush at this point.

I know. It's maddening. It's a horrific case. Right. And today, this is an easy case. I know. And it doesn't even get past a coroner's inquest. The jury is not convinced that they can bring him to trial. With the type of circumstantial evidence and the lack of true physical evidence...

I would have to agree. And at this point, you haven't even brought up whether or not he had access to a wheelbarrow. They don't know. They can't confirm it. They can't confirm the wheelbarrow. They can't match anything because, you know, DNA. They can't confirm any of this stuff, really. And the timeline is what bothers people the most. Do you believe his wife? Do you believe him? This would have obviously been a hanging. This would have been a capital case. And they don't want to convict somebody on circumstantial evidence that feels...

strong but not strong enough. So ultimately, he's acquitted. Even though they took thousands of statements, they've never been able to make an arrest. And now over time, the police became less convinced that Percy killed Vera. They couldn't figure out how the timeline would have ever worked.

Margaret Key tried to come back and say, well, I'm certain it was Percy Rush with the wheelbarrow, but it was too late and they couldn't use her evidence because she couldn't identify him at the time. Well, you can't even say that Vera was in that wheelbarrow. No. So the Pages leave their house eventually, and we don't know anything about Percy Rush, that he was convicted of anything else. Of course, that doesn't mean anything.

But he stays in Notting Hill, and eventually he dies in 1961. And Vera Page's case is still open, unsolved.

It's a terrible case, but I think we learned a lot from this case. I think this was a good case for us. Well, it is. And right now, I think Percy is what I would deem a prime suspect. You know, he's checking the boxes. But I've been in this position before where I'm like, yeah, I've got a prime suspect. And it turns out it's not the guy. Just like with some of the other cases that we've talked about, I'm going, well,

do they still have the physical evidence? Yeah. Do they still have the semen evidence from Vera? You know, you may link that back to Percy, or today we could identify, you know, whose semen that is. Yep. And basically identify the killer and see if that's somebody who's, you know, killed other kids across England. Well, as always, I can't promise anything, but I'm certainly trying to pursue those avenues with a lot of the evidence that we have.

So this was a complicated case and lots of forensics and unsolved, which I know you like, which was why it was a two-parter. So thank you for joining me on this. And now I have a little bit of a forensics crush, I think, on Dr. Spilsbury. And I'm now going to go over his biography once again and find some more cases because I think he knew what the hell he was doing. So thank you for joining me, Paul Holes, on yet another adventure in London. Well, thank you, Kate. This was, again, another...

compelling and at the same time frustrating story. I know. Thank you. This has been an Exactly Right production. For our sources and show notes, go to exactlyrightmedia.com slash buriedbones sources. Our senior producer is Alexis Amorosi. Research by Maren McClashan, Allie Elkin, and Kate Winkler-Dawson.

Our mixing engineer is Ben Talladay. Our theme song is by Tom Breifogel. Our artwork is by Vanessa Lilac. Executive produced by Karen Kilgariff, Georgia Hardstark, and Daniel Kramer. You can follow Buried Bones on Instagram and Facebook at BuriedBonesPod.

Kate's most recent book, All That Is Wicked, a Gilded Age story of murder and the race to decode the criminal mind, is available now. And Paul's best-selling memoir, Unmasked, My Life Solving America's Cold Cases, is also available now.