Out of Focus PT 2
01:02:16 Share

This is exactly right.

This episode is brought to you by LifeLock. The holidays mean more travel, more shopping, more time online, and more personal info in places that could expose you to identity theft. That's why LifeLock monitors millions of data points every second. If your identity is stolen, their U.S.-based restoration specialist will fix it, guaranteed, or your money back. Get more holiday fun and less holiday worry with LifeLock. Save up to 40% your first year. Visit LifeLock.com slash podcast. Terms apply.

Listen up. I'm Liza Traeger. And I'm Cara Clank. And we're the hosts of the true crime comedy podcast, That's Messed Up, an SVU podcast. Every Tuesday, we break down an episode of Law & Order SVU, the true crime it's based on, and we chat with an actor from the episode.

Over the past few years, we've chatted with series icons like BD Wong, Kelly Giddish, Danny Pino, and guest stars like Padgett Brewster and Matthew Lillard. And just like an SVU marathon, you can jump in anywhere. Don't miss new episodes every Tuesday. Follow That's Messed Up, an SVU podcast, wherever you get your podcasts. Dun-dun!

I'm Kate Winkler-Dawson. I'm a journalist who's spent the last 25 years writing about true crime. And I'm Paul Holes, a retired cold case investigator who's worked some of America's most complicated cases and

♪♪

Hey, Paul, we had a humdinger of a story last week, didn't we? It's a serial killer. Yeah, you know, that was a fascinating episode for me, you know, in terms of we've got a guy out in L.A. in 1957. Is that right? It's 1957. Yeah.

But we're pouring into 1958 now, unfortunately. So tell me what you remember, because I had a couple of people message me and say, I really like when Paul does a recap. So let's give the listeners what they want. We're going to see how closely you listened to me last week. Well, I do have my crib notes that I kept from you telling me the story. So I do have a cheat sheet, but I don't know if I can weave it as eloquently as you would.

but we'll go ahead and give it a shot. Sure you can.

In August of 1957, 19-year-old Judy, who is a model, she's estranged from her husband, going through a divorce, has a 14-month-old daughter that she's in a custody dispute with with her estranged husband. She needs money. For Judy, who's a model, the way to make money is to model. And so she ends up being picked up by a person who claims to be a photographer.

And he utilizes the name Johnny Glenn. And a roommate is able to describe Johnny as being 5'9", 150 pounds, olive-complected, and he's wearing horned-rimmed glasses.

She doesn't come home after being picked up, and roommate gets scared, reports him missing. Law enforcement isn't able to make much progress in the investigation, and five months later, some kids find some skeletal remains, limited skeletal remains, basically forearm, wrist, and hands from a single body. Months go by, and then now there is another woman

Her name is Shirley. She's 24 years old. She's also divorced, has two kids.

And she goes out on a date that is set up through this Lonely Hearts Club. And she's picked up by a man who goes by the name of George Williams. And George had actually dated another woman from this Lonely Hearts Club about two weeks prior. And that woman got home fine. But Shirley never comes home, nor does she make it to the dance that George was supposed to take her to. Yeah.

And we actually have two different descriptions of this man, the woman that he dated two weeks prior, as well as the description of the man from Shirley's mom who was home when she got picked up by George.

And these descriptions are somewhat varied, but as I talked about in the first episode, I think they fall within, you know, the general variables that you get from different witnesses describing the same man. And you showed me images of two composites.

And quite frankly, to my eyes, those two composites look like the same man. And we know we have a serial killer in this case. And at this point, I think you're going to start talking to me about more of the investigation and maybe more victims. You nailed it. Got everything right. I was waiting to see if you were going to mess something up, and you didn't. I passed the test. Your notes are great. I mean, I know I see you scribbling all the time, and sometimes I wonder if he's doing like a cartoon sketch or something while I'm talking. Yeah.

Okay, we continue to be in L.A., which now makes me scared to be in L.A. in general because women keep going missing. And, you know, as you said, we're still looking for Ruth and Shirley. We still have not identified those bones. And about a year to the day when Judy has gone missing, and this is four months after Shirley has gone missing, a landlord at an L.A. boarding house is very concerned about one of his tenants.

It is July 27th, and now we're in 1958. And this is a woman named Ruth Mercado. She's a model just like Judy, and she had just turned 24 three days earlier. So all of these women are in the same age range and sort of physical attributes, but

The landlord is concerned because he hasn't seen Ruth in four days, and he finally decides to go in and check on her. When he goes into the room, so this is a boarding house. This isn't even a formal apartment.

She isn't there, but she has a couple of pets. There's a small dog and two parakeets, and they are all in distress. They haven't been fed or given water in four days, it sounds like. The landlord calls the police about Ruth's disappearance. Talk to me just about that scene in general. So we don't know yet if Ruth had been taken from this boarding house or, you know, if she met somebody out, but she clearly, whatever happened, did not intend to leave her animals behind. Right.

Right. And I think that that's the critical factor there because, you know, Ruth being 24 years old, she's an adult. She can go off on her own. I can't imagine with a boarding house if she had any reporting requirements back to the landlord that would cause him to end up reporting her missing. But the observation that she obviously hasn't been taking care of her pets yet.

You know, that's the red flag in this scenario. So now law enforcement is going to respond, and it's having to now reconstruct what happened. You know, is there any evidence within this room of violence? Is there evidence of a struggle? If—

those are absent, then it's also, okay, so who last saw Ruth? Where was she last going if she left voluntarily? Is there any indicia, you know, any writings? Let's say she took a, you know, back in 1957, a landline phone call and on a notepad wrote down a name and a number or address. You know, that's information that the investigators are going to gobble up and now go track that person or those persons down.

They have to really spend a lot of time reconstructing Ruth's life in the last few days before she disappeared. And I think they have no information, Paul, essentially, about Ruth. That's who we have the least amount of information about right now. Let me tell you what the police say when the landlord calls and says, listen, I've had this tenant, I haven't seen her in four days, and now we've got these animals that clearly have not been fed or watered in four days.

The police show up, and they don't see anything really amiss. It doesn't sound like there's even forced entry into the apartment. Nothing has been turned over. It doesn't look like anything has been taken. But they do look around the apartment, and they find nude photos of Ruth.

It sounds like she was a burlesque-type dancer. And even though the media pick up on this and the police say they're investigating, I just don't get the sense that it's with the same level of interest and intensity as with Judy and Shirley. It sounds like when they saw those nude photos of her in sort of a burlesque-type show, it

the interest from both the police and the media went down quite a bit and they couldn't connect her. They didn't even think about connecting her with these other two missing women. Yeah. You know, I, from that era, I can see that happening in essence. Um,

Law enforcement very rapidly moved off of what they would classify, what we really do classify as high-risk victims. Back in the day, the mindset was we need to spend our resources elsewhere. And it's just such an unfortunate thing that that's what happens.

I think, you know, immediately, of course, as we're talking about these victims, for a proper investigation, you're trying to track down, well, who knew Ruth? You know, did anybody within the boarding house know her? Did she have any friends? You know, what did she tell these people that she's interacting with?

The fact that she is also a model, you know, did she have any jobs? The victimology is huge, you know, and so a proper investigation would have included all that. But it sounds like, oh, she's into this burlesque type of aspect and we're just going to move on. Yeah, and this is the only case and I'm, you know, I'll tell you these are all connected, of course. This is the only case we have where

a man has not been seen. You know, in this case, nobody saw a man come to her apartment. Nobody remembers her saying, I've got a photography gig. No one knows, you know, if she left with the intention of coming back, she literally vanished and left these animals that she loved behind. And the police didn't seem particularly motivated. And, you know, they're not making any headway in the meantime with Judy and with Shirley. You know, I'm sure they suspect that Judy is the person

person who was found the bones, you know, that were found by the two little boys, but there were other missing women. So it's still a big mystery for them. You know, and I think that that, you know, that's just something I want to point out is we are also talking Los Angeles.

And so right now, we have focused in on these three women that have gone missing. Imagine the number of missing persons, even in 1957, in a city the size of Los Angeles. Law enforcement, they're looking at these cases

Each one of them are individually needles in this massive haystack of caseload. So, you know, I think with Ruth, I mean, the fact that like in the prior two cases, there was Judy and Shirley had family that were engaged at certain levels, right? With Ruth right now, it doesn't sound like there's any family. There's nobody that's going, hey, there's something really wrong here. It's a landlord of a boarding home. Well...

We are having, you know, a problem connecting everything. We're having a problem finding, you know, these two, well, now three women. I feel for the police in 1957-58, with the exception of not investigating Ruth's case right enough. We now have a fourth victim. And I have a lot of detail because, thank God, this one is a survivor and a hero as far as I'm concerned. And you're going to find out why, because this is an amazing story.

Winter nights are made for blankets, a good book, and a cup of hot cocoa, but Beam Stream Powder takes it one step further. Beam Stream Powder is a science-backed, healthy hot cocoa for sleep. It's not only delicious and cozy, but it's actually helping you sleep better too. Just add a scoop to hot water or milk 30 to 45 minutes before bed. Then your body will ease into rest mode and

and the Dream Powder will help you fall asleep faster and stay asleep longer. Dream Powder is available in delicious flavors like Sea Salt Caramel, Brownie Batter, Vanilla Chai, and the Beam Dream Powder Original Flavor, Cinnamon Cocoa. Other sleep aids can cause next-day grogginess, but Dream contains a powerful all-natural blend of reishi, magnesium, L-theanine,

epigenin, and melatonin to help you fall asleep, stay asleep, and wake up refreshed. December is one of the worst months for me with stress. I've got the kids' birthdays, my birthday, holidays, and I always have problems sleeping because it's so hectic.

Beams Dream Powder helps so much. It's predictable. I need to take it about an hour before I go to bed, and I can feel myself getting sleepy in the bath, and it's the perfect way to ease into sleep for me. Our listeners get a special discount on Beams Dream Powder, their science-backed healthy hot cocoa for sleep with no added sugar. Better sleep has never tasted better. If you want to try Beams' best-selling Dream Powder, get up to 40% off

for a limited time when you go to shopbeam.com slash buriedbones and use code buriedbones at checkout. That's shopbeam.com slash buriedbones and use code buriedbones for up to 40% off.

This show is sponsored in part by BetterHelp. December is for soft blankets, glowing lights, and evenings spent with your favorite people. But what if you could bring that sense of warmth and comfort into every season? Therapy with BetterHelp helps you do just that.

If you're thinking of starting therapy, give BetterHelp a try. It's entirely online, designed to be convenient, flexible, and suited to your schedule. Simply fill out a brief questionnaire to match with a licensed therapist. If the connection isn't right, you can switch therapists anytime for no additional charge.

Why wait any longer? BetterHelp makes getting started easy. My girls went through a really rough time when they were in middle school, and we used family therapy to really help us understand what they were going through, and it was so helpful. I was reticent to start therapy at first. I just didn't grow up with it. But once we started, I saw the benefits of being able to learn how to communicate with them. Find comfort this December with BetterHelp.

Visit betterhelp.com slash buriedbones today to get 10% off your first month. That's betterhelp.com slash buriedbones.

So, you know, I was going to sort of like lead up to the fact that this woman made it out alive, but there's so much detail. You would have suspected that and you would have said, okay, well, obviously she survived. When I watched Zodiac with one of my girls, she said, oh my gosh, are they both? And I had not really told her about the story and we were, you know, watching them, the first couple.

And she said, are they both going to die? And I said, no, I don't think so. And she said, why? And I said, well, this is a lot of detail. So if neither of them survived, how would we have known this? There's no CCTV. How would we have known that this had happened unless either the killer said something or somebody survived? And then, of course, we knew with the Zodiac that in the first couple, somebody survived. So...

I like being mysterious, but I want to be realistic at the same time. When does this case happen? How much longer after Ruth? Three months later after Ruth. So now we are a year and a couple of months after our first case, which was Judy. So this is October 27th.

This is a 28-year-old woman. Her name is Lorraine Vigil. And she is, this is a familiar story, this is her very first modeling gig. And she's part of a small agency that she's just started working with. The agency contacts her and says there's a photographer who's going to pick her up at the house. Now, I don't know if this is what happened with Judy or Lorraine,

well, it wouldn't have been Shirley. It would have been Judy with the first modeling gig. And we don't know if that's what happened with Ruth, but this is the first time I've heard of an agency being involved. It looks like he contacted an agency and said, I need a photographer. I need a model for a shoot. And they hooked him up with Lorraine. So this guy shows up. His name is Frank Johnson. You know, now we've got, again, you know, a series of disappearances involving a photographer. And,

So Lorraine says they're supposed to go to a studio that Lorraine is familiar with and take pictures. But when she gets in the car and they start driving, he doesn't go toward Hollywood. She's trying to direct him toward the studio because she's worked at the studio before. And she asked Frank, why aren't you going in the right direction? And he said, well, I want to use my home studio instead. She says she knew something was really wrong when he gets on the Santa Ana flight.

freeway. He starts driving very fast. He stops at a desolate exit and pulls over. He says, I've got a flat tire, but then he pulls out a gun. He pulls out a pistol. So he says, do what I tell you to do and you're not going to get hurt. And he pulls out a piece of rope to tie her hands together. She fights and she grabs the gun. They start struggling in the front seat. The gun goes off and

and the bullet grazes Lorraine's thigh. She opens the passenger door, and they both fall out onto the ground on this, you know, desolate exit stop. They are in sight of passing cars, but nobody stops. They're driving by, and there's, like, in a hand-to-hand battle on the ground over this gun, and nobody is stopping along this highway.

She bites his hand that is holding the gun. He lets the gun go. She grabs it, and she holds him at gunpoint. And eventually highway patrolmen come. Wow. I mean, Lorraine...

blood coming down her leg, scraped up, scared to death, and is holding this guy ready to blow his brains out until the highway patrol shows up. Because I'm sure at that point, people are passing by and seeing this woman holding a gun on a guy on the ground. And now, finally, we get the police to show up. What do you think about that? I mean, what a story.

That's actually amazing. I'm surprised she didn't kill him. Almost like an act of passion. She's got to be so scared and so enraged at the same time. You know, now she's got the upper hand with the firearm. Yeah, in some ways that speaks, all of this speaks to Lorraine having sort of a wherewithal of understanding the dire circumstances she's in.

And I always say, never let somebody bind you. You fight at that moment, even if they've got a gun on you, because if they're binding you, then they are probably going to do horrific things to you once they have you under complete physical control. You can't fight back when you're bound.

So the fact that Lorraine engaged so early on, that just speaks volumes to, you know, the courage that she had in that very scary moment. You didn't describe, I mean, you described Lorraine as a model. So I imagine she's probably the same stature as the other gals, you know, in that 5'2", 5'4". Yeah. You know, 110, 130 pound type of range. Mm-hmm.

So it sounds like she was able to put up enough of a physical resistance against this guy. You know, he's not somebody that's just so monstrously overpowering that she was able to, you know, get the gun away and hold him at gunpoint. And does he just sit there? I think he does. And I'm guessing people are

are starting to pull over. And at some point, you know, the highway patrol come because people are stopping and, you know, saying that he needs to come. I think he's just petrified, maybe. And you're right, she's pissed. And he is not a big guy. We've talked about that. He's 5'9 and 150 pounds. But that doesn't mean anything. You know, you and I have talked about, when we've talked about the Colonial Parkway killer, we didn't do that as an official episode. But, you know, you and I have talked about these sort of people who take over couples. And I always think how...

Do you have the balls to do that? One person controlling two people and you say, well, you know, when you have a weapon and you're intimidating them. And he must have just thought that this gun was going to be enough. And she clearly had a fight or flight moment and overtook him, which was great. Yeah. You know, and the likelihood is, is with the other victims, you know, he probably pulled a gun on them. Mm-hmm.

You know, and was expecting the same type of compliance from Lorraine. And she surprised him. And he wasn't ready to handle that. In many ways, this, I mean, yeah, there's no question that Lorraine, you know, she is a hero in terms of the actions she took. And I'm assuming now that

this offender is taken into custody by CHP. He is, and I know that this seems like this could be the end of the story. You know, I've told you this is a serial killer. He is. We've kind of gone through all the victims, but not quite. There's more to this story that is so in your wheelhouse. There's, you know, the criminal profiling part of it, and then there's potentially other victims. So, yes, Lorraine is holding him with a gun to him. And,

The highway patrolmen take this guy and they turn him over to Orange County Sheriff's Department and they find out that his name is Harvey Glattman. And I think you, yeah, so you're shaking, you're nodding your head. So I was wondering if this was somebody who had heard of before because it's California and it's, you know, in this time period, I know you're familiar with some cases, bigger cases in California. Had you heard of him before, Harvey Glattman?

I had, of course, the, you know, the names of his victims and some of the circumstances, the details that you're providing on these cases didn't make me clue in. Oh, this is this is Harvey Glattman.

However, I am familiar with him as a serial killer, notably that he was a photographer. And there's other serial killers that I've worked that did this same type of ruse. Yeah, and Glattman, I don't know if he comes off as particularly charming, but he is definitely someone that a lot of women thought had something to offer them.

And he really drew them in. He was 30. He was actually a television repairman. You know, I'll tell you a little bit more about him. He's an interesting character because he is questioned for four days. And by Thursday, October 30th, Harvey Glattman has admitted to the murders of Judy and Shirley and Ruth. And I don't get it. Why did he confess?

Well, he must know the gigs up. I mean, he's caught red-handed with Lorraine. But they don't have proof of anything, Paul. I mean, he could have just said, listen, things got a little rough and, you know, they're not connecting him to these other women, I don't think. I think he is saying, I did this, and they're kind of going, what?

Okay. You know, I think it really comes down to his, you know, inner motivations. And if he is somebody that is looking for attention, somebody like Dennis Rader, BTK, I could see where he would confess because he's going, yeah, I did this. You know, I want the notoriety of being this serial killer. You know, I also am wondering how the...

L.A. interrogation was back in 1957. It probably wasn't very cordial or pleasant for him. A little third degree is what you mean, I think. Well, I keep having flashes of that movie, L.A. Confidential, you know, for the cases.

It's awesome that he's saying he's admitting, but the cases still need to be proved against him. Is he providing details? Is he able to lead investigators to the rest of Judy's body? Does he give the specifics on how he interacted with each of these women on the nights or the days that he picked them up and what did he do and et cetera? So there's still a lot of information that he has to provide up and beyond just saying, I did it.

Let's be honest, winter layers can trap a lot more than just body heat. If you're battling unwanted odors from head to toe, Lume Whole Body Deodorant has got you covered. It's safe to use anywhere on your body. That's right, anywhere. And it provides 72-hour odor control. Lume was created by an OBGYN who saw firsthand how body odor negatively impacts people's confidence and

and quality of life. Traditional deodorants try to mask odor, but Lume takes a different approach. It uses mandelic acid to stop odor before it even starts. Think of it as your very own pre-odorant. Choose from a variety of fresh, bright scents like

clean tangerine, lavender sage, or toasted coconut. I would have to say at this point, my favorite scent is the lavender sage. I feel really fresh and I feel really confident when I wear Lume deodorant. I get really sweaty in the winter because I do wear a lot of layers, even in Texas. So Lume is a lifesaver. Lume's starter pack is perfect for new customers. It comes with a solid stick deodorant

cream tube deodorant, two free products of your choice like mini body wash and deodorant wipes, and free shipping. As a special offer for listeners, new customers get 15% off all Lume products with our exclusive code. And if you combine the 15% off with the already discounted starter pack, that equals over 40% off their starter pack. Use code buried for 15% off your first purchase at

at lumideodorant.com. That's code buried at L-U-M-E-D-E-O-D-O-R-A-N-T.com. Please support our show and tell them we sent you. Smell fresher, stay drier, and boost your confidence from head to toe with Lume.

Thank you.

And even though hormonal transition is a normal part of aging, that doesn't mean you have to suffer. The experts at Midi Health understand what you're going through and how to help. Midi Health is the only virtual care clinic for women navigating midlife hormonal transition. If you've never heard of menopausal care, that might be because 75% of women who seek clinical support don't receive treatment.

But Midi Health is here to provide the support you need and deserve, from FDA-approved medications to lifestyle coaching and health guidance. Your body changes in midlife, so your health care should too. You deserve to feel great. Book your virtual visit today at joinmidi.com. That's joinmidi.com.

I first want for us to go back to the very famous dual sketches that we have and let's compare them to what Glattman looks like because I had been on pins and needles. I thought, well, are these accurate or not? Because in my packet, they didn't include an actual picture of Glattman. And so I did my own little thingy where I put the sketches on one side and him on the other. So what do you think about this?

Wow, yeah. So I am seeing, you know, the two sketches that you showed me last time and then seeing Glattman on the right-hand side. This is a headshot of Glattman. It shows he's got his glasses on and...

And side by side, these two composites are probably as good of composites as I've ever seen matching Glattman. The hairline from the composites is spot on with Glattman's hair. The length of his face is a little bit more squished in than the composites is.

But the protruding ears, the prominent nose, you know, the mouth, the eyes, you know, everything about the composites. I mean, these are good. They really do look like Glattman. Fantastic sketch artists, both of them, and fantastic witnesses. I mean, people, boy, this is like, for me, textbook on how accurate things can be. This is great.

I wanted to get this out of the way before we talk about Glattman and what he says happened with all of this. So as I said, he eventually confessed. We don't know if this was the act of the third degree, but they did get a confession out of him. So we do know stuff about Glattman when he was a kid. And I figure let's get the stuff about the women taken care of, and then we can talk a little bit about him because I know that

We talk about the myths behind serial killers, and we'll see kind of where he falls along those lines for you. All right. Sounds good. So, Glattman says that he strangled each one of these women with the same piece of rope, and that's something that they end up finding in his apartment. Right.

He, as I said, is 30. He was a television repairman. And when he confesses, they say, where are they? We found some bones and that's about it. We don't know if Judy was that woman that we found. We don't know where Shirley and we don't know where Ruth are. And he said, well, let me, you know, illuminate a little bit for you here.

He takes them to a remote part of the Anza Desert State Park in the Colorado desert not far from San Diego. And that's where they find the remains of two women who

Because of, you know, the coroner, a San Diego County coroner says that because of the decomposition and the animal activity, that he said the bodies were a little more than a bag of bones. But they tentatively identified them as Ruth and Shirley. And he said that from what Gladman had told them, they can identify the bones found six months earlier by those two boys, which we thought was Judy. Right.

So he has said, you know, here are all three of them and took them directly to it. So that's proof positive, I'm assuming, right? Yeah.

Oh, absolutely. Now, does he bring them to the rest of Judy's remains? That's not the impression I got. He said this is where she was. I think they thought there was not going to be anything left there. I'm assuming they combed that area where her bones were found initially. So then this is where things get difficult for me. I mean, I have never seen these kinds of photos before. Yeah.

he decided that he was going to photograph these women basically moments before he murdered them. So the newspapers inexplicably printed these photos. It just makes me nauseous. And these are not photos I'm going to put on social media. If listeners want to find them, they can, but I'm not going to do it. It's

as upsetting to me to see them almost more upsetting than to see the bodies of women. Because there's especially one, and I'm going to show you now, there's one photo where a woman looks absolutely terrified, and it's Judy. But we see all three of them. So I'm going to show you what he did. And they find these photos along with the rope in his apartment. So

So the title of this is Madman's Own Pictures of the Girls He Killed. So Paul, the woman on the upper left is Shirley.

The woman on the right is Judy. And the woman on the bottom is Ruth. And they all appear to be alive right now. So, yeah, I'm looking at these photos, which, you know, again, for them to have been published in the newspaper is very, very insensitive to the victims and the victims' loved ones. The horror of these photos is...

We're seeing these women in the last moments of their life. And at least with, particularly with Judy, her sitting, you know, in this chair and she's got a gag. Her hands are bound behind her back. Her knees are bound. You can see the fear in her eyes as she's looking kind of up to her left. And that's probably where Glyde's

Glattman is actually standing and he's taking a photo using, you know, probably a cable attached to the camera on a tripod. That's interesting that he's standing. He's not like standing there with the camera and photographing her because I bet she's engaged with where he's at. This photo of Judy of the three, we...

talked about in the first episode, those True Detective magazines. This is exactly the type of photo, the type of imagery that's in the True Detective magazines. That's why these guys liked those magazines. Glattman is, in essence, making his own imagery

purposefully with these women bound like this and with the fear on their faces because that's what he is getting off on. You know, all of them are fully clothed at the time these photos are taken, but they're all bound. Gagged. I can see the one on the upper left. Shirley. I had a hard time seeing it, but I can definitely see a gag around her mouth. There's like a shadow or something going on there. She's outside. Yeah.

Yeah. You know, Judy's the only one that's inside. She's, she's, you know, sitting up in this chair and then you have Shirley and Ruth and,

who are laying mostly on their back, you know, but bound in an identical manner, you know, around the ankles, around the knees, hands behind their back, the gags around their mouth. And we know that Glattman, after these photos, sexually assaults them and then strangles them. And it's very interesting behaviorally that he utilizes the same length of rope

as the murder weapon in all three cases. So he's not tying a ligature around their neck and leaving that on. He is manually strangling them, utilizing this rope. That's something that he just, that's what he wants to do. And the fact that he's keeping that rope is,

is significant. It's significant that he's keeping these photos and he's keeping the rope with the photos, right? And in his residence. So this is all part of, you have to ask, anytime the offender does something that is not needed to commit the crime, you have to go, well, why is he doing that? Well, that's something significant to the offender. And it's often insight to the offender's fantasy. Glattman is a fantasy-motivated offender.

And I know this won't surprise you, but they looked in a toolbox in his apartment and found personal belongings for all three women. You call those mementos, is that right? Not trophies, mementos? Souvenirs.

Souvenirs. Okay. Generally, you could say it's sort of semantics, but within the behavioral analysis terminology, when offenders are taking items, in essence, to help remember the crimes that they committed—

We utilize the term souvenir, and that's just what he has done. And that is a very, very common thing that these guys do. These photos, which are terrifying to me, the police, when they looked through his apartment, found some of them pinned to his wall. I mean...

Well, let me tell you what he says happened. At this point, I don't see a reason why not to believe him because he really is very straightforward about this. His intention was sexual assault, he says, for all three women, but he didn't want to be identified. And going through the Lonely Hearts Club, I mean, of course would identify him and going through an agency, photographer agency, it's just so interesting. And maybe as you learn a little bit more about him, you'll understand that

going to the person's house, being able to be identified by the mother and the sister. I mean, what is he thinking? I don't understand why he says, well, I had to kill them, but he's allowed other people like former dates to be able to identify him too. Yeah, you know, this is where...

I mean, he's pre-planning his crimes, obviously. He is not a dumb offender by any stretch of the imagination. But just because he's reasonably intelligent doesn't mean he has a PhD in committing crimes. And I mentioned, you know, what stood out to me is that this offender, by going and picking up Judy at her house and by going and picking up Shirley—

and interacting, at least he's seen by Shirley's mom. He's elevating his risk. Why is he doing that? He's not luring these women to an isolated location that a lot of guys will do because they don't want to be seen, right? He's allowing himself to be seen. This is where he's just not thinking things through at the depth that maybe some other offenders would in order to try to minimize the risk of them being caught.

He's obviously able to isolate these women and sexually assault and kill them. He's successful at committing the crime, but he's not being very diligent about covering all his tracks in order to be as successful of a predator as he could have been. Well,

Well, let me tell you, these details are something else. And I think it speaks, number one, to the terror that these women must have felt. And number two, to his psychology. So tell me what you think about this. He picked up Judy, who is the first victim that we know of. He picked up Judy. He brought her back to his apartment rather than to some studio. Or maybe he said, we're going to do this pinup shoot at my apartment. And he said, we're going to do this pinup shoot at my apartment.

He sexually assaulted her at gunpoint and then, of course, took photos of her bound and gagged. We don't know which came first. Then he drove her into the desert and had her get out of the car. Now, normally, I would not go into this much detail, what I'm getting ready to tell you, but I just wonder what this says about him. At gunpoint, he told her to kneel down and he tied the rope around her ankles and then around her neck and then strangled her by pulling the rope tight.

Why would he do that? There's something that he wanted to do. Is that like hog tying? It's not. If I were to describe it just the way that you said, I would say, yes, it is a form of hog tying. If it's just straight from the ankles to the neck, because I've seen an offender who's done some more elaborate aspects, you know, in essence, where now the

The victim is face down and ankles are bound and that same rope goes up around the neck, but it's done in such a way to where the victim strangles themselves because it's so tight. You know, their legs are now pulling against the rope around their neck. Sounds like in this case, you still have this ankles to neck connection from behind, but Glattman has to further tighten or utilize the separate rope, which I think is very...

the case as the murder weapon. Now, this may be something he saw. You know, these offenders visually will see things like in the True Detective magazines and want to replicate what they've seen or what they've read about. That could be something that he is just trying to do because it was fantasy material for him from something he's seen or read about. Or it may be because Glattman is not a very physically robust person

and maybe competent male, it may be a mechanism of safety for him. So he knows that he has absolute control over Judy, that she cannot fight back because she is completely incapacitated.

If that's the case, and that would be more of what I would say an M.O. type of characteristic of Glattman because he's utilizing it to accomplish the crime and lower the risk to himself, his own self-preservation. But if he's doing it because it's something he's seen that turned him on, then that is fantasy. That is a signature of his. Well, then we change locations a little bit.

So we now are going to talk about his second victim, who was Shirley, and this is the Lonely Hearts Club blind date. He picks her up, and instead of going to the stands, he drives her to Huntington Beach. Shirley, of course, is arguing with him and says, take me home, and he drove her out into the desert instead. They waited in the car until the sun came up. He needs light to take the photographs. I get, yeah. She refused to get out of the car. Yeah.

And he held her at gunpoint and made her get out of the car. So she gets out of the car and he binds her and sexually assaults her.

And then he makes her walk in the desert for hours before he makes her lie on her stomach and he strangles her. I mean, is this something he's replicating that he saw or read again? You know, it could be. You know, I think Glattman is taking, you know, he's elevating his risk by driving around with this woman that he's abducted.

you know, from Sun Valley, Huntington Beach, all the way down to San Diego County. And then it sounds like he makes her walk for hours down in the San Diego County desert before she goes face down and he strangles her from behind. From a behavioral side, you know, some of these offenders...

want to watch the victim face to face as they strangle. In essence, they play God. They know they're the ones that are controlling when the victim dies. They want to see the victim's fear. They want to feel the victim struggle against them.

Here, if he's strangling her from behind, it almost does sound like he's eliminating her as a witness. The act of killing isn't part of the fantasy potentially in Shirley's case. I can't eliminate the possibility that maybe he has seen or been exposed to something where this is replicating a fantasy story in his head.

But he may just be eliminating her as a witness, and he's utilizing the desert and the distance that she ends up having to walk as a way to further hide her body. Well, the last woman who was Ruth, this is the burlesque show woman, he tells the police that he actually didn't want to kill Ruth, that she was the one that he actually really liked, which is disgusting. Yeah.

He had arranged through a studio, it sounds like, to try to photograph her, and she wanted to cancel because she didn't feel well. He came to her apartment anyway, and he forced his way in. This is the boarding house. That's right. And repeatedly raped her at gunpoint over the course of a night. I don't know where other people are in this boarding house, if it was deserted or people didn't hear, but he made her put on a robe and walk to his car the next day, and then he drove her to the desert.

He took photos of her clothed and unclothed and then killed her with the same length of rope. And he's driving her all the way down to San Diego County Desert again.

Yeah. I mean, unless he kills them somewhere else. I haven't read this. And then puts the remains there, but I have not read, you know, anything like that. Well, this newspaper photograph of Ruth, it's showing her bound and gagged in the way that the caption reads as she's on this blanket in the San Diego County desert just before she was strangled. So he drove her alive all the way down to San Diego County. So you see it with Judy. She's found in the Hollywood Hills, if I remember right, right? Mm-hmm. Yep.

she's kind of kept in the Los Angeles area versus Shirley and Ruth, who

He's driving a distance south of Los Angeles to San Diego County and purposely, I'm sure, choosing the desert. The desert is not a kind place for bodies that are left on the surface. Well, after all of this, he is charged with Shirley and Ruth's murders. I don't know why, not Judy, but, you know, they paired them together and he pleads guilty. And he's sentenced to the gas chamber. But we have...

a potential boulder, what they call the Boulder Jane Doe. We might have another victim. So tell me what you think about this. Okay. So he has been sentenced. He is not dead yet. They are finding photos of women from Colorado. Also, he had been in Colorado. Similarly bound and gagged.

They ask Glattman if all of these women are still alive, and he says, unless they've been run over. And he says, oh, I didn't kill anybody else, but the wording raises eyebrows because there's a cold case in Boulder that they've been trying to solve. No one really had been making this connection very well, but there was a woman whose body was found in the Boulder Canyon in Boulder, Colorado in 1954, so three or four years earlier, and

They think that she might have been run over. And for more than 50 years since, she has been called Jane Doe, the battered blonde of Boulder Canyon. And in 2009, they identified her as a woman named Dorothy Gay Howard through DNA. And he was in Denver at the time. And that she had been visiting around this exact same time her aunt, who was in Denver, and...

and that they think that there must have been a connection, but that was that. The police are never really able to make that connection. It doesn't seem like strong enough, but it could be a coincidence. I don't know. What do you think?

Well, do you know how Dorothy, was she left on the road? How did she get run over? Let me give you the circumstances here. So, she was only identified because of her 24-year-old grandniece who starts researching this. I told you the identification happened in 2009. And that's how we know all of these details. Right.

So she had been 18, and she had been in Denver visiting, we think, her aunt. That's where Glattman was at the time. And he was known to police at that time. Dorothy was originally from Arizona, and she was married to a guy who her family didn't approve of, and she got divorced prematurely.

pretty quickly. She had been married to another older man, but it seems like she left him and went to Denver in this time, in 1954. Her body was found in April by a creek in Boulder Canyon by two University of Colorado students.

No clothes, no jewelry, badly beaten. There had been animal activity, so her face was unrecognizable. But she did have perfect teeth, which I thought, that's weird. But that meant apparently she couldn't be identified by dental records. They didn't have any dental records that they could figure out. Does that make sense to you? From the dental side, you know, oftentimes what you see is you have the dentists who they will, you know,

When you have a deceased body in which you have intact teeth, the anthropologist or forensic odontologist will come in and chart the various fillings, the various anomalies to the person's dental aspects. And then when they have a

identification, then they go to the dentist to see the records, the dental records. And does that add up with the various things that the forensic odontologist was able to chart? Now, if you have somebody who has had no cavities and no fillings and no other dental issues like me, the dentist doesn't have anything outside of saying this person has perfect teeth.

So in the databases, there isn't anything that, in the comments, to say, hey, key in on this person has a bridge on the lower left part of their jaw. You just don't have that information. That observation is interesting. She was badly beaten but found by a creak.

But it doesn't say that she was on the roadside. So, you know, I wonder, because I have seen this, where sometimes, in fact, I've got one victim who was beaten so badly, the pathologist said she's been run over. And she wasn't. She was just beaten so badly. You know, and I'm wondering, is that what we're dealing with in this Dorothy case? Because it doesn't sound like she's on the road. Right.

Yeah, they have a suspicion about it. I know this seems like a weird, weak connection right now because it's just him in the city. But this is what police do, and this is why I think this part of the case might be a little bit confusing. So the police in 58, they gather all of these photos of these women that he's taking photos of. He knows everybody's names, and they're trying to, of course, identify who's alive. And so far, they can only confirm these three women who are dead. And so they're trying to identify who's alive.

He gets to a woman that he says was in Denver, and he points to it and says, I didn't mark her name down, and I never saw her again. He does not admit to killing somebody, but he made that weird cryptic remark. And they don't trust that he's obviously going to tell them everything. He does admit that he encountered a woman in Denver, but he says, I don't know her name. We have a record of this because it's in a police transcript, but we don't have the photo that was actually discussed yet.

So what police in 54 thought happened was that this victim, who we now know as Dorothy, had been thrown into the canyon by this creek alive from the road above or possibly rammed with a car.

Now, tell me if this is possible. In the late 2000s, a cold case investigator compared the injuries on Dorothy's body to the dimensions of a 1951 Dodge Coronet, which was Glattman's car. He said they lined up. I mean, does that even sound like that's a thing? They're trying to make this connection. You know, I would have to see...

what the, you know, the injuries the investigator's looking at. I mean, you could most certainly have contusions that match up with features of a vehicle as they hit the body. You could, you know, have some very unique features of a vehicle that get impressed into the body during, let's say, a moving type of act of violence. You know, the victim standing up,

and the vehicle hits the victim at a certain point on their body that maybe those features are replicated based on the abrasions and the contusions and stuff. The body is such a weird medium, though, for a large object to put unique characteristics, you know, to be able to really conclusively match up.

I'm not saying I'm skeptical. I just would need to see it. I would say it's possible, but sometimes people will imagine things that aren't there. Yeah. Let me just say, you know, they were never able to make, obviously, a definitive connection, and there were many photos, and I'm not sure how hopeful Glattman was after a certain point.

But let me sort of say this is a little bit of his background because I also think this is important. You know, we are interested in the backgrounds of killers and warning signs. So police say from a young age, he had been interested in rope and strangulation at the age of four. You know, when I talk to law enforcement about...

you know, recognizing the serial predator, there's a phrase that I always use and it's called know thy enemy. And this is to underscore that these predators, their psychology, their fantasy, their behaviors,

is so abnormal that unless you study what these guys do, you're not necessarily going to recognize or think about evidentiary aspects of the case.

And when you start talking about going into the various psychological abnormalities that some of these offenders exhibit as they grow up, you run into this type of thing. I know some people say age four. Yes, some abnormalities start showing up at a very young age. I have Phil Hughes here.

by age he was in second grade and he's mutilating his female classmates dolls by second grade wow you know and when he was being interviewed by psychologists yet he was talking about seeing like what he described as dead mannequins in his in his head i've really moved away from kind of the

the psychology of the making of the serial predator, you know, I kind of really am more want to catch them.

Right? I know. You know, and it's for the other people who want to study the psychology. But here you have Glattman at a very young age exhibiting some abnormal behaviors and admitting at that age to fantasy of strangulation. This just carries out to where now he's committing, you know, strangulation and sexual assault on adult females. Right.

Yeah. I mean, I think this is another weird thing. His parents said that he would, when he was a little older than four, not much older, he would tie like a rope or a string around his neck in the bathtub and let the other end of the rope be pulled into the drain to feel that tightening.

And I just think, God, that's so young, I mean, to really be fascinated in that way or want to replicate that in some way. Yeah, and this is where if you see your child doing these types of behaviors, get them help now. This is not going to be a surprise to you or anybody listening. His behavior was never good. He was pinging with his family between New York City and Denver, and

Throughout his young adult teenage years, he would repeatedly break into women's homes and tie them up and grope them. Not rape, but grope. And of course, eventually that escalated. He was in and out. He served five years in Sing Sing for grand larceny. So this was just a clear escalation. Not the mutilation of animals that sometimes we look for that we know of. This is different.

And I will say, though, that I've done stories on people who strangle and they've strangled animals to begin with, you know, as practice. So I wouldn't be surprised if he had done that with this level of fascination that he had. You know, I'd say that's entirely possible, though it's not absolutely necessary. You know, this is all, you know, the cruelty to animals, you know, that's all part of this serial killer triad. And it's, you know, I don't put much weight on, you

the the bed wetting aspect a little more weight on you know the setting of the fires depending on why they're setting the fires but i put a huge amount of weight on if you have somebody a child that is torturing animals killing animals they're one step away from doing that to a human and that that is the most significant component of the serial killer triad

This evolution where he's breaking into houses and groping women, I can guarantee he was a peeper at one point. And he was a burglar, a fetish burglar, prior to actually going physical with these victims inside their own houses. Right.

That's the standard. You have to get comfortable at committing these various types of lesser crimes before you get into the more serious crime. And I talk about these social barriers to offense. And I imagine, Kate, if you're in a neighborhood and you walk on your neighbor's lawn, you get uncomfortable. You're afraid that that person is going to be upset with you or yell at you.

Imagine going up on your neighbor's lawn and looking inside their house. Yeah. Or breaking into their house. These offenders have to pass each of those social barriers and get comfortable doing that. And so that's where I'm pretty sure Glattman is doing all of these various other lesser crimes before going in and groping the women inside their own homes. Yeah.

Well, after this, after he pleads guilty, he is executed at San Quentin Prison in 1959. I will say I'm always looking for heroes and I love looking for the female hero in this story. And how many lives did Lorraine save by

by fighting so hard. And then, I mean, a bullet hit her, grazed her on the thigh. She's bleeding. People are ignoring her as they fly down the highway. And she's holding this guy's own pistol against him. And...

God knows how many people he would have killed, how many women he would have killed if she had not done that. And I just think that's amazing. I love ending on a good note like that, that I'm very proud of this woman, you know? No, absolutely. I mean, there's no question. The courage to fight and to actually win the fight. Yeah. You know, that's amazing.

Well, I feel like I need a couple of baths or a couple of showers after this because this was just horrific compared to what we've... I mean, we always talk about really difficult crimes, but this was pretty difficult for me. And I had never seen photos like this before. But a really powerful story, finally, a woman being able to take control of the situation and saving so many lives...

at least being able to provide closure for the other victims in this case. I mean, one of the harder cases that we've had to deal with. From my perspective,

I guess, world perspective and experience. Glattman is just one of many of these monsters that are out there. And it really is something that people need to pay attention to. Because if you take a look at Harvey Glattman, he doesn't look like the boogeyman.

He looks just like the average guy. He looks non-threatening, yet he is able to isolate and take control of these women and ultimately kill them. And these types of predators are out there. And these are the types of cases that I have spent the last 30 years of my life working. Wow.

Well, next week, I'm going to avoid serial killer cases because this was a tough one on me. But we will come back with another really good episode. Thanks for all your hard work on this, Paul. This was a lot. Yeah, this was a good case, good series of cases for me. Thank you, Kate. Good. See you next week. ♪

This has been an Exactly Right production. For our sources and show notes, go to exactlyrightmedia.com slash buriedbonessources. Our senior producer is Alexis Amorosi. Research by Maren McClashan, Allie Elkin, and Kate Winkler-Dawson.

Our mixing engineer is Ben Talladay. Our theme song is by Tom Breifogle. Our artwork is by Vanessa Lilac. Executive produced by Karen Kilgariff, Georgia Hardstark, and Danielle Kramer. You can follow Buried Bones on Instagram and Facebook at BuriedBonesPod.

Kate's most recent book, All That Is Wicked, a Gilded Age Story of Murder and the Race to Decode the Criminal Mind, is available now. And Paul's best-selling memoir, Unmasked, My Life Solving America's Cold Cases, is also available now. ♪