Unpacking Grief with Erin Davis
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Well, hello, everybody. Welcome to the Jan Arden Podcast, Season 2, Episode 2. I don't know what that is in Chinese numerology, but I have a feeling it's nothing. Two and two, if someone wants to write in. Anyway, we're well into Season 2 now. I'm here with the wonderful Sarah Burke.

who is letting Caitlin Green learn how to be a mother. So she's going to be with us for the foreseeable future. Hi, Sarah. Welcome. Hello. Hello. Adam Karsh is engineering, as always. They are respectively in Toronto, correct? Toronto and Toronto? Yes.

Mm-hmm. And joining us without... I'm not even going to stop. Aaron Davis is here. Aaron and I have known each other for probably 30 years because I have had my record deal for 30 years. Aaron, good morning, good afternoon, good evening, because we don't know what time this is going to be on. So all the things...

And we are in all the time zones except for maybe Maritimes and Newfoundland. So eventually we will conquer Canada. I was saying before we started recording that you have had an unbelievable career. And if I was to start listing off your many accomplishments, we'd be saying, and that was our show, goodbye.

Look who's talking. Erin, you've always been such a force to be reckoned with, but I'll tell you what, in the last five, six years, you have stepped into a version of yourself that is inspiring, fierce, warrior-like, crone, the crone coming out of the trees with her big stick. Tell me where that started. I kind of have an inkling of where it started, but I just want you to talk to walking into your power. Mm-hmm.

both through what I thought were tragedies. The first one I thought it was the worst thing could ever happen. And then the second one actually was, but it,

It was in 2005, two years earlier, I'd been fired from the morning show of Canada's top radio station in terms of numbers, CHFI. But in those two years, I found a new partner. I found my strength. I found my voice. And that radio station asked me back. And I got to add maybe another zero at the end and definitely the partner I wanted. And this whole new sense of self. I thought at 40, I was over.

And no, they brought me back. 40! Listen to that. I know. I had a hip replacement. The hip morning show from down the hall replaced me. So that happened. And I'm like, okay, I'm on the beach. What's happening?

Yeah. What am I going to do? So you had such an incredible part in my comeback. I know I've got to keep this quick because if all of these podcasts were just, I love Jan so much better than I love Lucy, because it would just be you. Yeah.

Then we would, that would be the whole show, as you say. But Jan started her blog, her blog, her blog, and I'll never forget. Whenever I see corn in the toilet, I think of you. Do you want me to say that? You run with the corn. If you're just tuning in now, we're talking about corn in the toilet with Erin Davis. That's right. Corn in the toilet, and I don't know what to do with it.

All right, so it was something you wrote about and you have these little things, corn kernels for one, that just stuck with me. Nevermind, I'll stop with that analogy. Okay, anyway, you encouraged me. I started blogging and then when I was fired, people knew where to find me. So thank you. And it all brought the comeback. So fast forward 2015, and that is when our one and only child, Lauren, died.

She was 24. She had just had a baby seven months ago. And we believe that the drug she was on to help her breastfeed, which is called Domperidone or Motilium, which is banned in the UK. No, banned in the US, prescribed with caution in the UK and given out like Costco cheese samples in Canada. We believe it jumped into her heartbeat and stopped it. So that's my PSA for now. Get your heart checked if you're on this drug, which thousands of Canadian moms are.

At any rate, after that, and I skip over that part, I'm kind of yada, yada, yada-ing the worst thing that can happen to anyone because that's not focused. It is. I can't fathom. Oh, you can, Jan. You've been through so much loss, and you have taught us all how to be open about it. But I'm not a mom. You know, it's so, and Sarah, you can probably speak to this as well, our mutual friend, Caitlin,

of her and her husband, Kyle. So it just seems so fitting that you are on the show, you know, this week, but you know, Sarah is here because she's really helping Caitlin and helping me and helping Adam to, to carry on with the podcast because of their loss of their full term, her full term baby. I mean, little Sam, he, he was with us for six hours and you and Caitlin both

I mean, right, Sarah? It's just the strength. I can't, I am not a mom. I don't know. I don't know how to even speak to that, you guys. You know what? It's so common too. I can even speak to my group of friends. I would say that one woman in every group of friends has gone through this. It's crazy. Yeah.

Yeah. And hearing Caitlin talk about it, because my stomach was in knots thinking, Oh, what happened? What happened? And then we heard, and, and then she said that they have welcomed their new child. And I just thought, and she's talking therapy, therapy, therapy, and I'm going, yes, you are helping others to get through the worst thing you went through. And really if, if,

purposeful mourning. It's like, you know, you writing your book, you know, feeding my mother, it's just taking the worst thing and your own grief and your own crying.

and turning it into something that can help others. I think that truly is the best thing we can do in any situation. And that's what happened when I went back on the air for a year and a half on CHFI. And then I just said, I'm done, got to step away. And that's when Harper Collins came to me and said, I think you've got a book in you. So I wrote the book and

And now it's just spreading the word of love, loss, and reclaiming joy. So again, Purposeful Mourning. The book is called Mourning Has Broken. Foreword by one Jan Arden, by the way. My love, thank you. It was an honor to do that. And just reading it, and I want to preface saying this to anyone, this is not something that you can only read if you've suffered the loss of a child.

or the loss of a partner or a mom. When you speak and when you wrote about grief, it is that thing that we all dread the most, but that indicates that in our lives we have loved profoundly because grief only exists next to this feeling

enormous love that we feel for another person or a pet or, you know, it doesn't, you know, I think that sometimes gets overlooked too. People are afraid to mourn their pets, but getting back to this whole idea of grieving, being secretive about it, you know, not asking for time off work. Your book was exceptional. It was a bestseller. Yeah. And did you surprise yourself? Did you always feel like you were a writer?

Well, I knew I was from all those years of vlogging, vlogging. I keep calling it vlogging because it is now. Stop inventing words. Anyway. No, it is. It's video blogging and it's journaling. Whatever it is to write one's thoughts down is so paramount, especially as we're dealing with stuff. Is there something about seeing it in front of you that, that,

Somehow takes the sting out of it because you're looking at it the words and you're like those are words, but I can manage that Mm-hmm. Yeah Writing the book wasn't cathartic because it was like digging into to you know Just scratching a scab all the time and there were things I didn't know because of the flog or the fog of grief and

and that cloak that keeps you, the shock that keeps you protected. But my husband, Rob, he had to dig into it with me every day. So it was very painful writing the book. But again, just looking down the road, nobody ever gets rich writing a book. We know that unless you're writing about hockey and it's Christmas time.

It was the bigger purpose was to just share the message. And you know what that's about too. And about getting a message out. Yeah. It really is a tale of repositioning whatever obstacle you face in your life, whether it is grief, whether it is the loss of a child, whether it's the loss of anyone in your life. A job.

A job, yeah. Right, yeah, yeah. Gee, who do we know who lost a job recently, high profile? Gosh, I don't know. I'm trying to, I don't know if this is segue or a tease. It's on the tip of my tongue. Gee, it feels like a, is that a radio tease, Erin Davis? I don't know, rhymes with wham bam. Damn. Damn. Hmm. You'd think that that narrative of losing one's job as they get older

or feeling vulnerable about losing your job as you get older. Just when you walk into exactly what we've been talking about today, is walking into your power. As a woman, men don't suffer that somehow. When their temples get gray, they're more distinguished and more believable and more...

Debonair. Yeah, debonair and much more secure in their position. Silver foxes, if you will, right? Yeah. Or shiny foxes in the case of Adam, our producer. He's a shiny fox. Thank you. Who told you you could lose your hair, Adam?

Yeah, that's right. Jan is Harris. My beard is kind of gray. It is. It is. You've got the black little streak. Oh, big deal. So do I. Come on. We've all got beards. Adam's just allowed to wear his.

Every time I feel like something catastrophic is going to happen to my health because, you know, I do have a little bit of hypochondria these days. There's some things that I do take off after my dad, like I'll get a pain here. This is happening there. I'm like, no, this is, I've got to have something. And I always say to my closest girlfriends, listen, if I'm in an operation and I'm laying there for a few days, like coming in and out of it, you need to go get a razor or some tweezers because

They're on the right side of my chin. There's about 11 of them. They look like fly legs. I can probably sell it as fly legs for the first 70 hours, but then they're going to realize that it's hair. So I need you to come in after visiting hours and lather me up. Anyways, we've got so much to look forward to. I know, but I have so, so loved wearing masks. It's like Velcro. It holds them on.

So, you know, you're hiding them and it's holding them. So go chin hairs. That's our next, that's our next rally. Where do we show up and who's not having a hot flash when we're doing it? Does anybody remember the Rosie O'Donnell show from? Of course. Do you remember that time she came out? Thank you, Erin.

She had a hair with beads on it. She kept adding beads to a hair on her chin. And after about nine weeks, the producers were freaking out. We got to wrap this up, but it was two inches long. You're listening to the Jan Arden podcast. We are off to a great start. Season two, episode two, Sarah Burke, Adam Karsh, and the one and only Aaron Davis. Don't go away.

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A cola or a cream soda, root beer, yes indeedy. And they've got their limited edition summer flavor, which will take you right back to the second grade. You got to try the ice pop one. Head to janardenpod.com to find out where the closest place to you is where you can go and buy Cove. Go right now. Welcome back to Jan Arden Podcast. Erin Davis is our very special guest today. And, you know, like we do, we chat on the breaks.

And Sarah Burke is keeping with the theme that we left you with just moments ago about facial hair or maybe chest hair or no hair or gray hair. But Sarah Burke, you've been to electrolysis. Do tell because I have considered it. I don't know if Aaron has, but.

Yeah, my mom has been going, you know, since, you know, probably her 20s. And she, you know, had to give me the little talk in high school about, you don't have to worry about this stuff. I'll take you to my gal. But then I went to university.

And you can't really keep up with that stuff when you've got like no budget and you're trying to do all the things. I kind of stopped. Eventually graduate, find a woman in the city I was living in, in London, Ontario. And she told me she was 72 years old. And I felt really safe about the shaking hand at that point. I was like, oh, my God, this is probably not the best person. But there was not a single other person in the city that did it.

I could not find another person. The electrolysis, which is the electrocution of the hair follicle, correct? Yes. A tiny little needle goes into the... Okay. Into the hair follicle. And it's like, it's quite painful. Like if you've ever gone for laser, at least it covers a wider area all at once. This is like...

One little follicle at a time. Anyway, the woman told me she was 72. I ended up meeting her niece through a different beauty aesthetic service. And her niece told me that she was 92. She was telling me she was 20 years younger. Isn't that nuts? It is. So the woman doing your electrolysis was 92? Was 92. 92.

So did it work? Because I've heard electrolysis is a five or six time visit and much, much like laser.

No, I would say you got to keep up with it. I did it like hardcore for a couple of years and now I just go every few months like for a little touch up. It helps when you do it when you're younger because then the follicles are dark and it's light going into the dark. But if they are white already, the chances are not good. And I don't speak as an expert, but this is something I was told years ago when they were starting on me. Yeah. Yeah.

The young kids are shaving their faces now, the things we were told never to do. Like with a little microblade thing. Yes. I use that for my cheeks for the peach fuzz. Yeah, for peach fuzz. It works. So Erin is one of the young kids. Is waxing facial hair still a thing? I used to get my lip waxed, and then my lip waxer lady, she said, no, I'm not doing that anymore because-

I think it's better if you just get one of those little epi, the little lady versions of the little shaver thing. An epilady, I guess it is. And it's that coil that whips around. I don't even know what's in there. I haven't attempted it yet, but I don't know what to ponder. I'm lucky because I have fine blonde hair at this point.

And I've never really had a mustache, but I have many friends that do. I don't know how we got talking about this, but let me ask you guys this, women of today. Why are we so embarrassed about facial hair or any kind of hair? What is it with a sideburn or a couple of hairs on our chin? Like literally, I've had so many friends that are saying, if I'm in a car wreck, you've got to come and pull those hairs out. No one can see them.

It's the modern version of wear clean underwear. Forget the underwear. Get the facial hair. Hey, I think I've got like a Gillette logo here. Forget the underwear. Do facial hair. Gillette. You know what, Gillette? We are looking for a sponsor. I'd say. She's cutting edge. Absolutely.

I got to tell you about the t-shirt that my girlfriend wore to a concert last night. Smoke weed and masturbate. Right there. Was that a band name? Okay. Well, you know, and not necessarily in that order, right? Whatever order you want. Whatever order. Like, don't think you have to do one thing before the other. Yeah, that's true. You know, I do love a handmade t-shirt, I have to say. Not where I thought you were going. Yeah.

I saw a t-shirt at the women's March, you know, years ago when the pink hat made its debut. Yeah. And, uh, I, I really smiled and I took up my picture with my mom beside this girl and she had drawn it. She was about 14 years old and it said, save a tree, eat a beaver. Ah, and, uh, I don't know if it was kind of an environmental thing. I kind of felt bad for the beaver, but you know, I digress. It's like, but I, I,

People are coming up with amazing slogans, but now I'm trailing into no man's land. I want to get back to you, Aaron, because we have you. I have things that I want to ask you, as does Sarah. I wanted to ask you about being inducted into the Canadian Broadcasting Hall of Fame. And I want to know what it felt like that moment you were told that, because let's go back, 2003, being removed from a job in your early 40s.

thinking this is it to, to now we flash forward to getting this very auspicious award. Jan, it was surreal because I didn't get it. I mean, I got it.

But there was no ceremony. I didn't get to put on heels and eyelashes. And is it because of COVID? It was COVID, yeah, yeah. Freak. I was told in 2020 that it was happening, and I had all these people lined up who were going to say something, and God bless you, you still did. But yeah, so there was no ceremony. There was something put on video that probably nine people watched. But the funniest part is, and this sounds like something from a Jan episode, but

I'm sitting in front of my green screen or the room I use as a studio, not this one. This is the living room, but I've got the face on, I've got my makeup on and we're waiting for the FedEx delivery of the actual trophy because they needed the tape that night. FedEx didn't come. It felt like sitting on a Saturday night at home waiting for the phone to ring. Kids ask your parents.

And so it was just like, seriously, I'm the biggest loser in the world. And now I'm in the Hall of Fame and I'm trying to decide whether to say I want out of the Hall of Fame if a certain person who was outed as a rat bastard to so many female co-hosts remains in that Hall of Fame.

I don't know if I've got Jan Arden balls to do that. So I'm just kind of putting it out here publicly for the first time. I don't know if I want to be in that club if he's still sitting at the table. Isn't that interesting? I love your bravado with that, Aaron. I think so many of us live in this place of fear and of repercussion to stand up for ourselves, to stand up for our colleagues.

And it's really refreshing to see what is changing. Maybe it was pre-COVID, but I feel like women really are standing up for each other. Most of us are. There's still, you know, women in that old boys department that are so afraid of being disenfranchised somehow that they go along with stuff, even though they're uncomfortable. But, you know, seeing Jennifer Valentine, you know,

Danielle Graham from eTalk coming. You know, there's, like you said, in the radio world, so many people stepping forward talking about abusive situations and volatile workplace. I feel like they're being heard. There's a lot more belief for the victims of these things than there used to be. People used to just get brushed under the carpet.

Well, exactly. My job was to not upset the apple cart. My first co-host for 11 years, everything we went through, we had massive chemistry, but there was also a lot of heartache and I would say certainly verbal abuse. And

what was I going to do? Because there were a million girls who wanted that job. And I knew I was just going to have to put my head down and go through it and start drinking and spend massive amounts of therapy. And I did write a letter to the general manager. I still have it in the basement when he was signing, re-signing up for another couple of years. And I said, please, please make sure this is something he wants to do. He's so miserable. Don't, don't let him do this if he's not happy. Because what I was saying without coming out and saying it was I'm

I'm the one taking the brunt of all of this stuff. And it never got ever got answered, never got addressed anything. So I didn't push it. I hung in there and it, you know, fast forward to the hall of fame induction that never happened, but it's still there somewhere. So I,

I don't know. I don't know. Do you suck it up? I was just going to say, here's a thought like Robbie Alomar, you know, he wasn't invited to the Blue Jays Hall of Fame 30th anniversary celebration. And, you know, his his stuff was taken down. I'm just thinking about it in terms of Hall of Fames. And I don't know, like if that's happening across the board right now, maybe it's a valid request.

But is it, do you think, a matter of, oh, over here, it's got to be about me, when it was, you know, it was Jennifer, it was Maureen Holloway, it was, you know, Lisa Laflamme, these are the people, these are the women who have stepped up on that mountain, and I'm just kind of the Sherpa behind them, if I'm allowed to say Sherpa. But, you know... You nut. But you know what I mean. I...

I don't know. Is it just me kind of saying, I would like some spotlight, so here's what I'd like to do. Hang on to that thought. I want to do something meaningful. Yeah, okay. Yes, well, you are, and we're stealing you for another segment. Don't go away. We're here with the phenomenal, indelible Erin Davis, Sarah Burke, Adam Karsh, Jan Arden Podcast. We'll be right back.

Hey, ho, ho, hi. We're back. Jan Arden, Sarah Burke, Adam Karsh, engineering. Erin Davis is here. Oh.

We've been swinging the pendulum, which we like to do on this show. We go from facial hair to corn in the toilet to grieving. And I wanted to talk a little bit more about grieving. But isn't that life? When you have people over for dinner, which is one of my favorite things to do, not a huge thing, not where you're at the end of the table and there's four different conversations going on, but a round table,

with five, six people where there's no separate sidebar conversations. We're all in the same one. I love those. But inevitably what you get, if you were to stick your phone in the middle of that table and record, you'd have the wildest rollercoaster ride of topics that

politics, health, who did what, who met where. Oh yeah, I did that once. So yeah, we were really drunk and it happened in the back. You know, the conversations, and that's what I love about going for dinner. Yeah, I love to eat, but I love sitting there afterwards when the waiter is standing in the corner, like just rolling his eyeballs, like these people, please get the F out of my restaurant. I want to go and drink with my friends.

Grieving, Erin. You lost your beautiful daughter. Yeah. And it wasn't like you had time to say goodbye. It wasn't like, and never mind that, coming from the high of a grandchild, your first grandchild. Yeah. Can you kind of update us of where your heart is lying, like you and Rob, and where your grandchild is?

is in this and because I know you made a big move out to the west coast you're a westie you're you're a west coast girl now I am I always was I was born in Edmonton spent a lot of summers in Turner Valley I knew I liked you yeah you know it I it used to be that when I came back to Alberta for visits I'd you know show my driver's license Ontario and I'd say but I'm born here

But yeah, came out to BC in that December of 2016 and the most miraculous thing happened.

We moved away from Ontario because of the vast sadness and memories that were there and the constant reminders of Lauren in people's faces and everywhere we went and everything. So what we did was we moved out, started a new life on Vancouver Island near Sydney, one of the prettiest spots. I know you were just at Mary Winspear Centre here earlier this year and we were away. But so we moved out here and then of course COVID hit in early 2020 and

Colin's dad remarried and we welcomed Brooke with open arms because we thought, you know what, this is what Lauren would want. It's good for Colin. It's great for Phil. And we welcome Brooke into our hearts, which is the lesson in here. Keep your heart open because closing it up in the aftermath of grief only turns it into just another death experience.

So when they married, they had a baby together, Jane, who is three at the end of September. So now there's eight-year-old Colin in October, three-year-old Jane. And because of COVID, they moved here to within a six-mile drive of our house. So we have grandchildren here with us on the island, and life is just about as good as it can be. We're dancing again, but with a limp, as Anne Lamott would put it.

I'm sorry, did I say granddaughter? Because it's a grandson. Yes, you have a grandson. It is, but we now have a granddaughter as well. It's Colin and Jane. And I love what you're saying about letting people into your heart because it could have been a different story. It's not out of the realm of people being very opposed to their partner, like their

your son-in-law remarrying. Sorry, I'm tongue-tied here. I know, I know. Of him having a new love in his life and a new partnership. And I love that you're saying Lauren would want him to be happy, to be fulfilled, and to move on in his life. I mean, they were both so young, right? Yeah, yeah. You have to be open to newness and to new things.

And boy, life throws some crap at us. And I think we're so inundated with these slogans that we always get. You know, life doesn't give you anything that you can't handle. Can't handle. You never get more than you can carry on your shoulders. Everything happens for a reason. For a reason. I know.

not a believer in any of those. God needed another angel. Oh God. Can you believe that? I know. It's like, all right, we're on. But these are the slings that we fill, put our rocks in to keep grief away from us. So we buy into some, these lofty ideas that are not rooted in healing. It's not rooted in healing to say to somebody, calm down, just breathe.

I mean, that just avoids any of the work that you're actually supposed to be doing, which is going through, inviting grief to your table, pouring it a cup of tea, getting a piece of cake and sitting there with it and having a conversation. I feel terrible. I mean, what's happened through COVID and the amount of depression and anxiety and what people have faced with being on their own

And, you know, I've always said to people, because I was raised in a rural area, you have to be by yourself at some point in the course of a day. Even if you're a mom with six kids, you got to find that 20 minutes girl or guy who's

And you've got to just read a book, drink a glass of water. I don't care. Just be by yourself and be on your own. If you can go take a trip by yourself, go do it. If you can take three days and sit in a little hotel somewhere with a crappy pool, or if you can stay at a girlfriend's in their shed that they've got in the back of their property, it doesn't have to cost a lot of money. It doesn't have to be the Fairmont. Fairmont, we are accepting sponsorships at this time. Please.

please feel free to contact us. But you know what I mean? To be on your own. Yes. People aren't, they just won't be alone. And grief becomes this cartoony thing that, you know, is about slogans and people being in a room with you. And there's more than one elephant boy. There's about 19 of them because people are giving you slogans instead of asking you and sitting and listening to what you feel like.

We're getting slogans because that's what we're taught. Yeah. Oh, don't bring it up. Yeah. We live our life in listicles and the fact that we can, okay, you're supposed to be here. It's a timeline. The Elizabeth Kubler-Ross stages of grief were for the person who's dying, believe it or not, not the person who's left behind. It works. It fits. But people still think there's a timeline. There's a GPS. It's been a year. Don't you think you should get rid of their clothes? Oh my gosh. No, no.

No, you do it your own way as long as you're not experiencing extended or unusual grief for which you need help or stepping into addictions where you're hurting yourself because it's so easy to self-medicate. I broke my sobriety of 10 years after I quit my job because I had nobody to answer to. And then I went to rehab. That's another whole other chapter. I should write another book. Well,

Well, we've got one more segment. So lo and behold, we're going to come back and talk about that. You're listening to the Jan Arden podcast. I'm here with Sarah Burke, Adam Karsh, and our special guest, Aaron Davis. We'll be right back. We're so glad that you're with us today. And once again, on the break, we're talking about grief. Aaron Davis is cracked open a giant shell of so many thoughts that we're all thinking. Sarah Burke, Shiva, you started talking about this and I wanted to make sure that

We all learn and hear about this. So Shiva is a Jewish tradition when someone passes away. And Adam here will also be able to speak to Shiva. And the idea is sitting with your family. Oftentimes there's like a sign-up sheet on the fridge.

where you get people signing up to bring you meals and just support the family. But as we were talking with Aaron, I was just thinking to myself, like, wow, how backwards is it that you want to cram as many people as you can into one space while that person really just maybe needs to be alone? Like, maybe we could do Shiva after the unveiling, Adam. What do you think about that idea? Yeah. Yeah.

Shiva is really it's it's not a sad time. It's to celebrate the person's life and support the people who are suffering the loss. And it's it's meant to just, you know, you share photos, you share memories. It's just meant to be an uplifting moment for everybody. Yeah. Just normally, like in the losses that I've experienced, the close ones are my grandparents and.

I would watch my mom and dad and the siblings and like, you know, it's just, it's a fury of being uncomfortable for so many hours the whole day. So I don't know, maybe we rethink some traditions. I was just thinking about that. Oh, Sarah, that's a great idea. Please do let us know when you come up with how to change the whole, you know, Judaism thing that's been going on for thousands of years. Let me see if I can get a hold of the big guy here. Hold on. Gee, I wonder. Okay.

I'd be afraid to even bring that up. You see, that's years of broadcasting. I'd be going, people are writing to me. How dare you? But this is just an open exchange of thoughts, how we could do things differently. And we can also talk about open caskets and that sort of thing too. We got to see Lauren, um,

just in a, literally in a box of, you know, crap wood that we had asked for. We just wanted to go and have a moment with her. But we had to have that time to touch her, to cry over her, to have tears fall upon her while we played what we called 21 Kisses one last time and just kissed her 21 times between Rob and me. We had to have that. But if it had been everybody coming up and looking at her and going,

Oh, Lord Jesus, I wish I hadn't seen that. That's a whole different ball of wax. There are so many things we need to rethink about the whole death ritual. But what's really encouraging is we are now setting our own parameters, aren't we? If you want the cremation, you want to put your ashes out in a fire pit in Algonquin because that's where your folks like to be. I'm sure the National Park Services wouldn't like that. But you know what I mean?

We can pretty much do what we want now. We're not handcuffed by that anymore. Well, we're not handcuffed by antiquated ideas that people did because society was rigid. And there was a lot of constraints within how we went through life. It was a very religious time. People were either scared to death of God or scared to death of not being involved in the church. I mean, all you have to do is look at English history with the Protestants and the Catholics.

and Elizabeth I and her sister, you know, that whole, I mean, they were burning people for religion. So I think we were stuck with so many, saddled with so many ideas the last 200 years, the last 150 years. And now people are really rethinking how they're celebrating people's lives. It's not a priest or whoever standing on a pulpit

reading Bible passages. People are being so inventive about remembering each other. They're having it at a golf course on the 18th hole and they're dumping, you know, a beer into the hole and everyone's talking and there's slideshows and it is, everyone gets a t-shirt. Like, it's just amazing how people are rethinking their

leaving here. Well, look at Ivana Trump. I mean, to be buried on the second hole of a golf course, talk about trend setting, wouldn't you say? Yeah. She's setting a whole new deal for sure. A whole new deal. That's right. We're rethinking everything of how we remember. And you can't look down your nose at somebody and go, well, you know, they didn't even have it in the church.

They had it. And people have to be stopped with all the judgy, judgish kind of stuff. We're all trying to get through this. I mean, I still have part of my mom's ashes, part of my dad's ashes, and I was going to get like this glass vase made into them. And of course, my dad's been gone seven years. My mom's been gone four. And I still haven't made the glass ball thing because...

You know, life gets away from you. And now I'm thinking, well, my dad loved our old house where we used to live, which is now inhabited by another family. So I was saying to my friend, do you think, would you be comfortable driving with me? And let me run this by you. Should I knock on the door and say, can I dump my dad in your driveway around these trees? Or do I just do it without asking them? Like I'm really at a, I really don't know. This is a very new conversation because I don't want him sitting here anymore. I don't, he doesn't want to be, and I have him in a mason jar.

which is not the greatest, but the beautiful box that he came in, part of them is in my mom and him are in a, like a memory bench in an actual graveyard, but I kept part of them. Well, quite a bit of them. So yeah, there's a jar sitting next to a jar with my mom and my mom and dad are different colors. My mom's a rose color and my dad's quite gray.

Is that not weird? Oh, that is weird. I didn't know you were a product of interracial marriage. Erin, it's, they're different colors of ashes. If someone wants to write in to at Jan Arden pod on Twitter and let me know if there's some science to this. I mean,

I don't know. We could do a whole podcast about ashes. I have so many ashes in my house. I've got some from my mom still in a Ziploc. Okay, I don't feel so bad. Next to my bras. I've got some of Lauren's in a baggie that I travel with. I've got some in an urn of hers. I've left some of hers. But the best story, and I know we're running late, my husband had some of his dad's ashes in his pocket. What?

We laid down in a sarcophagus in the Great Pyramid because we got a great tour, and he left some of his dad's ashes. Did he? So they're probably still wondering why a 90-year-old white man died somewhere in the pyramids. You've done some DNA and come up with an absolutely stunning discovery. It's astounding. It's astounding. You know, how clever is that? Sarah, you got ashes in your house?

I don't, but listen to this. I went to the Black Keys concert at Budweiser's stage in Toronto last night, and I had really good seats. I could see everything on the stage. I was like on the floors. And I looked up at the drum kit, and in front of Patrick Kearney, there was an urn and some roses. I need to know the story. I haven't had a chance to look it up yet, but something tells me he's bringing someone on tour with him in that way. Wow. If you Google Patrick Kearney urn, you're probably going to get a money figure, but...

Good luck. Different spelling, I know. Patrick Kearney. Let's see if anything comes up here. All right. Sarah Berg is looking that up right now. We have one minute. Listen, I want to leave this with you, Erin. 60 seconds. What have you learned about failing and succeeding all in that same moment? You know, when you're so, so down, but you can climb out of that. Any final thoughts? I

Oh, my love, you know this story too, that failure, it just seems like the end of the world at the time. And thank God we just keep pushing through to see if there's anything going to be coming up the next day because the sun always does. And I hate to sound like Annie, but it's so true. And everything that happens when one door closes, another one opens. Yeah, it is hell in the hallways.

but there's always going to be a reason to keep going. And the most important thing, and I know you will agree, and I'm sure most of the people who are listening today and watch your show and know and love you, laughter. If you can't laugh at it, you're not going to survive it. So find a way to make it funny. Such good advice. Yeah, it really is great advice. Thank you from the bottom of my heart, Aaron. You really, your weekly vlogs and your journaling,

You're feisty, you're fierce. Like I said, you're the crone coming out of the trees with your big stick and you're taking no prisoners. There's a lot of young people that really need your words of wisdom right now. And I think it's up to us women that have been in this industry for a long time to really stand shoulder to shoulder and have a very fierce game of Red Rover, Red Rover and hold the line for our fellow citizens.

our fellow female warriors. So anyway, thanks for being on the show. I appreciate it so much. And let's do this again. I hope you'll come back, Erin, and congratulations on your sobriety. I'm really proud of you. Thank you. Thank you. Three years this time around, one day at a time.

We've kidnapped Aaron. And this is, for all of you still listening, this is bonus content on the podcast. If you're listening on Spotify, iTunes, or iHeart, wherever you get this podcast, Aaron Davis, take it away.

All right. So we're talking about having to laugh through everything. We talked about Shiva. We talked about funerals. We talked about rituals. So my whole thing is you got to laugh about everything, right? And so Laura and our daughter, we gave her two funerals, one in Ottawa,

one in Toronto, Ottawa was where she worked at 580 CFRA and had her baby and husband and life. So we finished up this funeral and my husband and I are staying at a motel and a bunch of people come back, Lauren's in-laws, my coworkers from our radio station in Toronto.

And we're in the bar and at the bar, there's this small menu. It's evening. I'm hungry. And I say to the woman behind the bar, I'll have the chicken fingers. And she goes, I'm sorry, the kitchen's closed. And I just slammed my hand on the bar and I went, this is the worst thing to happen to me today.

And everybody in our group broke out laughing. But these were the radio people. The in-laws and stuff were looking at us like we have completely lost our minds or Aaron's drinking again or something. But it was just like, this is how you put things in perspective, right? Some other people might be furious. There ain't no chicken fingers. But you know what? In the big picture,

Ain't no big deal. Oh, my God. That's funny. Adam, what were you saying? You said you said something inappropriate at a, was it a funeral or a Shiva one time? So I've been to many Shivas in my life. And when you go to a Shiva, you're just supposed to go and show up and pay your respects. And it's not about thanking people for coming and thank you for being here. You just go and show your respect. So the very first time I was eight, seven or eight years old and I went to a Shiva, it was, I don't know, my mom's cousin's great uncle's wife, whatever. I don't know. It doesn't matter.

And I go and we showed up and we were there for half an hour. My very first shiva, never been. And on the way out, the woman, the elderly woman who lost her husband, I walked up to her and said, thank you so much for having me. I had a really nice time.

My mom is like, I know I taught you manners. Stop talking, Adam. Stop talking. I have other ones too. Such good manners. You got to laugh though. Thank you. My good friend's brother passed away. The sound quality is going to kind of suck because this is my computer. But they flew to Holland. He passed away before they got there, of course. They didn't make it.

He had cancer. But anyway, in Holland, it's very common for people to have the body in the middle of the living room on a cooling mat for days. And people come and have coffee and there's like cookies and stuff. And I just remember my friend saying that people were putting like down their dirty cups and saucers like down by his feet because they were looking around for a table to put stuff on. And at one point there was an elderly guy who,

you know, having his cake or his coffee or anything. And he needed an extra hand and he set the, his cake saucer just on like the guy's thigh and,

And then no one said anything. And then they're kind of looking at it. And then he kind of got himself together and got his coffee and then picked his saucer up and started eating his cake. But he's just like, where can I fucking set this down? Oh, right here. I'll set it on this guy's leg. But it just really makes you think about

These sterile types of goodbyes that I don't think they do anybody any good. And I'm not making any criticisms or judgments by any means. If that's what that person wanted or if they want anything at all, my dad said, put me in the goddamn burning barrel. I don't want a goddamn thing. Well, we had a nice memorial for him. Everyone, a few of his brothers came and stuff. And my dad was raised Mormon.

But it's just funny that here's this guy on a cooling mat. Like, we're going to set my cake down. And there's something about that that's like, I like it. And if you guys want to set your cake down on either of my boobs, or if you want to set a tray of sushi on my stomach, vegan sushi, whatever.

You know, feel free. I wouldn't mind being on a cooling mat for a little while where people could just look at how great I looked and how good my skin was because someone will fix me up. But it's like we have to change. And Aaron, I'm going to rely on you for this, but changing that narrative of losing your whole life, basically, I would liken it to losing your life the way you knew it.

And finding a way to celebrate them, but also finding a way to go forward. I commend you on that. And your book, yeah, your book was so important for that. And that book's going to help people 100 years from now. Morning has broken. Morning has broken. You must find it, order it.

on Amazon, go to your favorite bookstore. I see it everywhere, Erin. I'm always tempted. I should start snapping pictures of morning is broken with me going, hi. I would love that. You saw the little blurb there from Olivia Newton-John and sadly she passed away too. So it's just such a gift to, to have had her sort of imprimatur on it. Yeah. Well, God needed another angel, Erin.

Yes, exactly. The platitudes, the platitudes. Oh my God. And I do want to find out what you want done with your body when you're dead, but now we don't have time to talk. So you save that one for me next time. Will you? We'll, we'll do that over. We'll do that at the next show that we go to Aaron. We'll talk about it then. Sure. Okay. Promise. I'm going to Googling.

Cooling Matt. Okay, got it. Great. Can someone plan for us to have a Shiva? We need the Shiva. That's right. Sarah Burke, I will be there. And Adam will be, thank you for having me. He will thank all your people.

Yeah, yeah, exactly. To life. I played Zidle in Fiddler on the Roof in first year. Just so you know. Good for you. Yes.

There were no Jewish girls to sing in Belleville, I'm afraid. So I had to take that one. Sorry, guys, for the cultural. What is that? Cultural what? Appropriation. I was going to say appreciation because I mean it. I appreciate it. Thank you. Thank you for your support. Well, I hope you've enjoyed this extra few moments of the Jan Arden podcast.

Don't think we're going to do this every week because, you know, we're not going to have Aaron every week. But anyway, we'll figure something out. Thank you, everybody. We'll see you next time. This podcast is distributed by the Women in Media Podcast Network. Find out more at women in media dot network.