Ashley Flowers: Courtroom Drama
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The emails and outreach we've gotten from fans who have like, I was in this situation and I think things would have ended much differently if I hadn't known what to look for has been absolutely incredible. Hey, everybody. It's literally, this is literally a great one because I love true crime. As you know, I love podcasts and I love Ashley Flowers and what she has done.

with Crime Junkie, Crime Junkie AF. She invented the crime, true crime genre in podcasting. And I am going to get the tea on all the cases I'm obsessed with. And I am going to ask her how I can avoid serial murders. Let's get rocking.

Ashley, I'm excited to have you on the show. I'm with a real podcast professional, so I get a little nervous. You get nervous? I'm incredibly nervous. Well, then we're a perfect match. This is the match that America has been waiting for. First of all, South Bend, Indiana. Yes.

That's where I'm from. I'm in Indianapolis right now. You know, my family's from Indiana. Anderson. Anderson, Indiana. Yeah, you got to go to the racetrack for the dollar beers, dollar hot dogs, and dollar bets.

100%. Let me ask you this. Do you know a place called Lake Wawasee? Yeah. That's where I learned to water ski. Shut up. I have many a great memory from that time. So it's always fun when I meet Hoosiers. I had no idea you were a Hoosier. Yeah. Okay. And then let me ask you this. And I ask everybody from Indiana. What is your understanding of the meaning of the phrase Hoosier? I had no meaning to it.

It was just a word, literally just a word until I had some relatives from St. Louis be like, oh, it's like, it's like not cool. Like, it's not good. Really? Yeah. Apparently in other states, Hoosier is like not a great thing. It's like what you call somebody who's just like, I don't know, backwards or I don't even know what they think it means. What I heard, what it was, was when it was, you know, whatever, a frontier that you would, if someone was coming, you go, who's there? Yeah.

That makes sense. That who's there became Hoosier. Hoosier. Sure. But no one knows. No one. Listen, it is a, hear me carefully, it is a crime that no one knows what Hoosier means. And it's been going on forever. I'm sorry, but I don't know what is more of a cold case crime than that. I think Hoosier. Yeah. You just like, you say Hoosier and I just think basketball.

That's it. Of course. But it's not. It's the state motto. Okay. So the new Crime Junkie AF is about unfolding right now. What's your current obsession? Because I have my obsession. I have two trials that I'm... Well, let me ask you a question. If somebody has been charged, is that when you close the door on it? Or do you follow actual trials still?

For Crime Junkie AF? Yeah. For Crime Junkie AF, the radio show, I think I would continue to follow it. So not like week by week, month by month, especially some of the trials last forever. Right. I covered a case that's actually going through trial right now, and I'll probably do like another coverage of it like at the very end, once I can talk about everything. Because-

While I am very into day-to-day trial testimony because I'm like the true crime junkie, it can get a little dry for people. Yeah, for sure. I'm obsessed with the Brian Koch burger or whatever the hell his name is, the

The guy in Idaho that has been charged with killing the co-eds. And I'm also obsessed with the Murtaugs, who he got convicted. He's injured. Oh, dude, that was like everywhere. You couldn't get away from it for a minute. I mean, that one is nuts. Yeah, because, I mean, he had some wild stories. And it was really hard to believe that he would do that to his wife and his son. But, I mean, what at the end? I think it was like drugs. Drugs make people do crazy shit.

Yeah, drugs and debt. And debt. And pride. So much debt. Drugs, debt, pride. Ego, yeah, I was just going to say. But it's so insane. I got into this genre a little bit when...

that book, The Stranger Beside Me came out, the Ted Bundy book. Oh, Ann Rule? Yes, Ann Rule. Very good. I was trying to think of her name. Very good. That Ann Rule book, that's a great one, don't you think? Oh, yeah. And I mean, like, I feel like that catapulted her into true crime writing. She's written about every, you know, true crime case, I feel like at this point. But for her to have that kind of connection to someone like Ted Bundy was, you don't get that a lot in true crime literature. Yeah.

Ted Bundy is one of those parts that I've been asked to play a thousand times. It's like... Wait, really? Oh, yeah. I'm like, I get it. You know, people thought he was whatever, handsome, whatever. I get it. Flattered, but thank you. Really flattered, but we up all night on that one trying to figure out who should do it. Really original. So I've never done it because fuck that guy. But it just makes me laugh whenever I see so-and-so's playing Ted Bundy or so-and-so's. I'm like, yeah, okay, whatever. Yeah.

That's one that we've actually... I don't think we've ever covered because we kind of tend to avoid, at least on the podcast, Crime Junkie, tend to avoid some of those bigger ones that just get done over and over and have 35 books and TV shows and whatnot. And unfortunately, because I'm not...

I'm not as steeped in it as you are. Those tend to be the ones that get onto my radar. And I'm also obsessed with what's the... Like the girls on the train tracks and there's a cell phone picture of maybe the murderer walking down the... Delphi. That's Indiana, man. That's Indiana. Yeah. Okay, give me a little bit of...

Give me a little bit of update on that, would you? Well, a little bit of updates, a lot of updates. So this happened, I mean, years ago now where two girls, we had a built-in snow day, but it wasn't snowing. It was a beautiful day in February, which we get, you know, random Indiana weather. And so they got dropped off to go for a hike. They don't return after their hike. And when a search ensues, their bodies are found missing.

they've never fully released, but like the stuff that's coming out is like in a pretty horrible way. And there, what is so wild about the case that got publicized over and over again was that there was a video actually taken on one of the young girl's phones of a man who was like walking towards them. And then we got just a still image of that. And then we got audio of him saying down the hill. Presumably they were on this bridge and he was like telling them to go down this hill to where they were ultimately killed.

And for years and years, you have a sketch, you have this video, you have the audio, and nobody knew who he was. And recently, there was an arrest. It kind of came out of nowhere. It was someone who came forward to police and said from day one that they were on the trail that day. And he has been arrested. He is going to go to trial. But his lawyers, what has ensued after that has just been...

legal chaos. His lawyers are claiming there is this cult, essentially, who is responsible for the girl's deaths and is framing this man. And the trial keeps getting delayed and delayed because of how wild this is becoming. Yeah. And the guy that they arrested, like you said, he was... Richard Allen. Richard Allen. He was always on the... He came, like you said, he literally came forward and said, hey, I was there that day. I didn't see anything, right? Right.

Yeah, he was. And he like, what's so wild is how much he looks like the initial sketch of their suspect. Someone people said they saw on the bridge that day. I mean, like dead on. And apparently he came forward and said, I was on the bridge. I just want to like let you know, because like you'll probably like hear that or whatever. And they were like, OK, thanks for letting us know. Goodbye.

And I don't know if the tip fell through the crack or what, but nothing. What's your gut tell you? It seems like, you know, my gut means nothing in a court of law, but it seems like he is connected to this. I don't know what evidence they have, but they seem to point to something they found in his home or him burning something. There was some ammunition found at the scene that they linked together.

to a gun that he has. Not that it was fired from his gun, but it's a little unclear. And it's reported that when he was in prison, he has...

confessed to the killings to his wife over the phone multiple times. Now, his lawyers say he was forced to do that because this cult has people that are in the prison. Oh, boy. The conspiracy theories get wild. Oh, how do you... Look, I mean, look, we've lived through OJ. Anything's possible. But how... I guess I just like to imagine the meeting between the lawyers where they get introduced to the suspect, they look at all the evidence...

They do their due diligence. And then they go into the closed room and go, fuck. Like, we got to defend a guilty man? Yeah, like, how about a cult? Would you believe a cult? Yeah, a cult. Wait, wait, I got it. It's a cult. To be fair, listen, it's hard to believe, but the stuff that they're pointing out, it's like it is there. Like, there's stuff in the case file, and they were like,

things that weren't looked into or doors that were left open. And it's not like they're just pulling this shit out of nowhere. The stuff that they're pointing to is there. And maybe it's true, right? I don't know until it's presented. But it seems like too fantastical to believe. I don't know. And the notion is like, it's one of those, it's infiltrated information.

Everything from the city council to the prisons. I don't think that they think that. I think what they presented, if I recall correctly, is that it's like a couple of correctional officers who are part of this

It's kind of like built around white supremacy. And so it's not like everyone. It's just like a couple of people. So it doesn't go all the way at the top. They're like, what's the worst kind of cult we could think of that people will hate? Nazis, it feels tired. White supremacists, that's it. Everybody hates those guys. But they're like, you know, like you've been here, they're here. Like it's a real thing. Yeah. Yeah.

No, I think, I think, I don't want to cast any aspersions, but when we would water ski from Lake Wawasee to Goshen. Goshen, Indiana. They would be like, that's the KKK of Central. That was the rumor. Oh, yeah. Right? There's like a town, like, I can't remember the town name, but like,

It's just a little south of Indy. Like, the KKK was still, like, very alive and well, like, very recently. But maybe it is the cult, then. It could be anything. It could... You know what? Like, until it plays out, I have no idea what they're going to present at trial. ♪

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Qualifying plan required. Wi-Fi were available on select U.S. airlines. Deposit and Hilton honors membership required for 15% discount terms and conditions apply. You must have a sense. You've lived this for so long. When something happens and it's in the media, let's say it's breaking news that there's a new horrible murder or whatever. Do you go, oh yeah, that's the husband.

Or, sounds like a random stranger to me. I'm sure I have like a fleeting thought. But the one thing, the longer I do this, the more I'm convinced that I never have the full story. The media absolutely never has the full story. And even as I've like worked, because we've got, you know, I've got a...

over a dozen shows on our podcasting network, most of them true crime. And shows like Crime Junkie or Crime Junkie AF, we're covering, you know, one episode, like one episode a week, one story a week. And then we've got deeper investigations where we spend a year. And even in those, when I've gotten thousands of pages of case file and audio and video, and I've interviewed the people myself, I find that there's just always like,

Even in reports, I still don't know everything because I'm reading something filtered through someone else's lens. And so I feel like the more I've done this, the less I've been like, oh, I know it. And the more I've been able to be open-minded in that I have actually no idea. So you love going through the files and that's your jam. It's my jam. It's a weird jam, but I...

Man, if I could have been a cold case detective, I would have. I would have made a terrible cop. So it just wasn't in the cards for me. That's amazing. I mean, have you, why have you, maybe you have. Have you ever done like a guest spot on any procedural, TV procedural? No, this was my bucket list. It's like I need to just make some kind of appearance on SVU. Yeah, exactly.

It's every crime junkies like our, you know, the show we all grew up on. It's been around for 100 years. So, but I have never made the guest spot. Not yet. How is that not happening? You're telegenetic. It's all, I mean, by the way, you guys could just wait. Do you video your podcast? No, we don't. See, well, that's the problem.

I think that's the problem. They, you know, because, and I have to be honest, when you first came across my radar with how you started and where you came from, and I know my fellow Indianians, my fellow Ohioans, so I had a very specific sort of in my mind vision. What you're picturing? Yeah, 100%. I've pictured you, you'd have like 17 cats on your lap. One dog.

17, again, but I knew there was pets. We're going to get talking about dogs in a minute. But I thought you'd be like 17, maybe some hoarding stuff going on in the background. And you're nothing like that. You're primed to go right on television. Thank you. Thank you. Well, I think also being in Indiana is probably a lot of the reason I'm not. People aren't filming a whole lot of stuff here. And if you're not in the mix, then people forget that you're available. I also

I also don't know that I am available. I'm not like, you know, if I was just hosting one podcast, that'd be a thing. But I've got two weekly shows, a limited series, a radio show, and I'm running a company. Yeah, you're not available. I did bring some production to Indianapolis. I brought Parks and Recreation, and we shot it in Lucas Oil, and then at St. Elmo's, the greatest. I know. Right? Right.

Yes, I love it. They're trying to work, you know, Indiana doesn't get a lot of TV stuff. So they've actually been recently trying to do a lot of like production credits for businesses and tax reasons or whatever. So like I have a book that I wrote that got picked up for TV and I am like desperately pleading with them to have it filmed here because it's set in Indiana and I would love it. It'd be so good. And

By the way, the St. Elmo's is the place everybody goes in Indianapolis to eat. It's the... Nothing to do with the movie that I did, St. Elmo's. Literally nothing. Yeah. But their... That sauce on the shrimp cocktail, that...

Gnarly. It's my favorite thing. In the world. But it's my favorite thing to do when I have new people come into town is to have them try it. And I'm not even trying to play tricks on them. I warn them. And everyone thinks that, like, they're the person that's, like, you know, not going to be fazed by it. And the tears that immediately come from their eyes. Yeah, it's amazing. Tears. I heard that when they make it that the people have to have respirators on. No way. That's what I heard.

I believe it. Do you know the great thing about St. Elmo's is the pictures of all this. I love anywhere where there's pictures of people who've come through over the years, right? Oh, yeah. So my favorite one is they have, it's the Navy SEAL who pulled Saddam Hussein out of his hidey hole. And there's a picture on the wall of St. Elmo's

It's a selfie. This guy's holding Saddam Hussein by the scalp. And he's got his head in there, like making the like pointing at him like, yo. What? Amazing. It's amazing. Yeah. Wow. That's pretty incredible. Yeah. That's, that's. Are you on St. Elmo's wall?

Yes, I am. You got to be, right? Okay, yeah. Okay. Yeah, the whole cast of, and then for whatever reason, when we were shooting, Newt Gingrich was, tried to go there for lunch and we had it shut down. And we go, Newt Gingrich, you're in politics. You need to be on our show. So he has a random appearance on the show. Oh, that's amazing. So insane. Explain to me the thing you do with your dog.

That he's just like a part of everything. He's literally just a part of everything, right? A part of everything, yeah. Can I see him? Is he around you right now? He isn't. Today was the day I left him home because I didn't want him getting too chatty when I did this. Again, I don't normally do audio video together. So Chuck is my, he's a husky pit bull. He's 13 now. I've had him since my last year of college and he was an eight-week-old puppy.

And when I was creating the podcast and the company, because I made the company at the same time, it's just a little bit of how everything kind of came from a genuine place. I was like, all right, I need a company name. I didn't put any thought into it. I was like, I'm going to do audio. And I love my dog, Chuck. Audio Chuck. And so he has been a part of it ever since. And after every episode on the network, we do a call out where we say, what do you think, Chuck? Do you approve? Yeah.

And he gives his howl of approval. It's very cute. I love that. I love him. And you all, I have four dogs. And, you know. Big ones, little ones? I have two Jack Russells that are half brother and sister. And a GSP, German Shorthaired Pointer. And then I have a rescue Chihuahua. Wow. Chihuahua mix. She's mixed with I don't know what. We did her...

her DNA test. Yeah. And it came back all kinds of crazy, like, I think there was like boxer in there. That can't be a boxer. The dog is this big. I don't know about those dog DNA tests. I don't. Well, that, and that's what I'm going off of when I say Chuck's a husky pitbull. I got him from a rescue in Arizona. Yeah, you don't know. Does he look anything like either one of those dogs at least?

He's definitely husky. He's got blue eyes, real sassy. And then you can see the pit in him when he smiles. He's got that like really like deep smile and he like is real happy. Isn't that funny when they smile? It's the best. I love it. Do you have a thing where you celebrate rescues? You tell the story of rescue dogs? So we did for a long time. We just actually...

changed it recently but once a month because Britt and I have always just been dog lovers we did well we called it preppet of the month because I don't know why I it's just like I've always called dogs preppets and then I forgot that people who listen to me have no fucking idea what I'm talking about that's amazing um

And so we would tell rescue stories and support different dog rescues at the end of every month. And listeners would write in with these amazing stories about the dogs that they rescued or the dogs that rescued them. We did that for a long time until Brit was...

Britt went off the show for a little bit. She had some medical issues and had to leave. And then when she came back, we changed it to the good segment. And so once a month, we talk about the good that the show is doing in people's lives, again, with nonprofits,

the way that we've helped maybe solve a case. And so that's kind of taken up that space recently. I like that. That's really good. I like both of those things. Do you record in your home? Did you build a studio? No, I was literally admiring your space over there. Are you in your house or are you somewhere in an office? I'm in an amazing studio here in Santa Barbara. I started it in my house right before COVID. Mm-hmm.

And then we sold the house. And in the rental we're living in, while we build our next house, there's no room to do. I mean, I have four dogs. They're, yeah, I was just going to say, there's no way to do it. But I'm looking forward to when my house is done to having a cozy place where I can just walk down the stairs and do it. But in the meantime, I'm in a vocal booth.

And feeling super professional. Yeah, super. I mean, it's better than mine. This is like, I've been doing this longer than you have. I like your color scheme. I like your color scheme better. Mine feels a little purple. Feels a little space age. I feel like we match a little. But mine's in my office. So we've got an office in Broad Ripple, if, you know, for those who are familiar with Indie. And I...

I would love to be able to record from my house, but I have a two-and-a-half-year-old. Oh, boy. So there's just nothing that can happen there without her being involved. Well, maybe that's a good thing. I don't know. Two-and-a-half. I love having space between my home and my work. It's a little too much space. I got a long commute, but...

I like having that space. Like, I can get in a different headspace. And I also, like, I'm one that I can be very consumed by my work. I'm a workaholic, if you will. And so, having that, like, very clear separation where I can, like, it never fully ends, but, like, really stop and leave work at home, especially now that I've got my daughter, I think it's the healthiest thing for me. Let me ask you this. So, true crime. Yeah.

It's a true crime the way Kaitlyn Clark is being treated. And she's in your hometown. Stop it. I'm obsessed with her. Okay. So let's get into this. I know. What is this thing recently? What did I just see that someone's like, what has she got more than three pointers? And everyone's throwing up the stats of not only just comparing her to this person that said that, but also, I mean, she's been still, even in the WNBA, I don't care that they're losing. She's been breaking records right and left. Yeah.

And she's in your hometown. She's playing for the, what are they called? For the Fever. The Fever. They've got the Fever. Indianapolis. If you're going to go play basketball anywhere, go play in Indiana.

Yeah. For sure, right? Yeah, because we like, we worship basketball here. Yeah, worship. It's like, it's, you know, yeah, it's like Jesus and basketball. Yeah, it's unbelievable. But have you gone to any of the games yet? I haven't gotten to. It literally, it's on my husband and I's bucket list. I was thinking about getting maybe a suite and taking the whole office because everybody, you know, you can't, you can't be in Indiana. Yeah.

You can't be a woman and not be a Katelyn Clark fan. That's why everyone's like giving her so much like hate. I'm like the stuff that she's done for the league, the stuff that she's done for just like being a woman. Like I think she's, can we all just give her a round of applause for a minute and like stop pushing her to the ground? And I'm, here's my thing. Say what you want about all of it. The real crime, true crime for me is where are her teammates?

Yeah. Like, in my day, like, you know, Lakers, Boston, when the NBA was really the NBA, you get clotheslined on the next play by your team. Her teammates are doing nothing to protect her. Nothing. Ah.

This is where, like, I will admit I haven't been deep into the WNBA before Caitlin Clark. She brought me here. I wonder if a little bit, though, if it's like men can get away with shit, women can't. Just period. And, like, being rough, being violent, like...

Getting revenge. Like, it just, it has a different, like, spin and a different narrative. Yeah, maybe you're right. I think, I also think they're busy, like, just being like, let's just stay above board and, like, outplay everyone and not get into it. I don't know. She's, she's just freaking fantastic. I got to go to her premiere when it was here in Indianapolis. And because she just, she just did a new doc, like, covering her last year when she was at Iowa. And she's,

I went backstage to the party and I could not work up the nerve to go up to her. Really? I was so starstruck. I literally went and talked to Peyton Manning, like no problem. Could not bring myself to go talk to Caitlin Clark. That's really saying something. I played golf with Peyton this weekend. Did you really? Yeah, just this weekend. And we were talking about the, in Ohio, flew back to Ohio and played in the Memorial Pro-Am.

Okay. And it was really fun. But we were talking about the Brady roast. Did you watch the Tom Brady roast? I have not seen it all the way through. It was long, but I started it. That was like, he talked about that when I saw him too. He was like, you know, his Indiana manners. He was like, it was pretty crude. Yeah, it was pretty off color, you know. Yeah, yeah. Because, you know, I had him on my roast and...

And I was very happy that Payne goes, I still think our roast was the best one. I said, thank you. The sheriff. The sheriff. The sheriff.

All set for your flight? Yep. I've got everything I need. Eye mask, neck pillow, T-Mobile, headphones. Wait, T-Mobile? You bet. Free in-flight Wi-Fi. 15% off all Hilton brands. I never go anywhere without T-Mobile. Same goes for my water bottle, chewing gum, nail clippers, passport. Okay, I'm going to leave you to it. Find out how you can experience travel better at T-Mobile.com slash travel. ♪

So how do you balance work and your youngster? Because two and a half is really... I'm deep in it. No kidding. I am deep in it. I

I'm figuring it out. I don't lie to anyone and say that I have it figured out. I'm figuring it out day by day. I'm very lucky that my team has been really amazing in protecting my time and not stretching me too thin. It's really easy to do when I'm kind of the face of the company and the host of every show. It's like the more stuff Ashley does, the better the company does. Right. And it would be really easy to just kind of put me out everywhere. Yeah.

And they've been really great at helping me find that balance and making sure that I can leave the office at a certain time and get home. And I'm finding it to be slightly easier as I figure it out because I just love both things so much. So I'm excited at the end of the day to go home and see her. And then I'm excited in the morning when I get to come back to work. Well, your success is such a great lesson.

And an indication of sometimes when you just do something for the love of it. It's what I tell people all the time. You know, you just like you had no, there's no way you had any idea when you did your first podcast with your best friend. You guys are just like giggling and having doing because you like it and that's the end of it. And then look, you turn around and look where you are today.

Yeah, I mean, I knew that I wanted it to be a business. My goal is like, I got to be able to pay my mortgage or I can't do this and work a full-time job. But to think about the media empire that we've built now was so far beyond what I could imagine. And I think that's completely right. And it's what I tell people all the time. I was like, I didn't

I got into podcasting because I fell in love with the medium. And I am in true crime because I have such a passion for it. And I literally think I put this on my Instagram last night. Like, it's something you can't fake. That's why, you know, everyone's like, well, what does it take to make a great true crime podcast? I'm like, you got to be like deep in it. You got to want the answers in a way that like, you can't just get into true crime because you think it's cool. Yeah. Well, listen, and that goes for everything. And you see it everywhere. You see it.

You know, it always drives me insane when somebody like wins the Super Bowl and they're headed towards retirement or whatever. And they're like, you know, I think I'm going to go into acting. It's like, well, I don't wake up one day and go, I think I'm gonna go play in the Super Bowl. I mean, I don't. I would never, you'd never even think of it. But yeah, you hear that all the time, you know? And the other thing is like people who love food

and their foodies think they can run a restaurant. No, no. Just because you love, just because you, you know, have an interest in it doesn't mean you can do it unless you have it in your DNA. Well, yeah, and I think you could do it. You can try it. I'm all about like trying new things too, but you can't expect to be, if you were, you know, you were the best at the thing that you were the best at, like you might not be the best at this thing you want to try. You can't come in and like, oh,

own it. And I think that that's where the true trouble ends up lying is when somebody comes in, they're like, well, I'm used to being number one. Why am I not number one here? Right. That's good. That's a very good point. Do you ever get a chance to travel? A lot, actually. Oh, really? So, yeah. Well, because we're in Indiana, I've been really passionate about keeping the business here because there is not a lot of media opportunities. And

And, you know, my whole family's here and I want to start creating that environment, those kind of jobs here. But I also can't ignore that a lot of our business happens in New York and happens in L.A. So I travel to those places a lot. If I'm on the ground doing actually some reporting for like one of our long form investigations, I might travel for that a little bit. And then like there's random things that are really cool that I get to do now. So I'm going to France in like a week.

uh for can and you know stuff that i never thought i would do yeah that's cool yeah yeah life's different now man like i had no idea um let me ask you this all right have you must have you must have read um one of my favorite books uh gavin de becker's book the gift of fear gift of fear yes gift of fear

It's great. I'm obsessed with that book. Anyone who's listened to Crime Junkie has probably heard me and Britt reference it no less than 20 times. No way. I didn't realize that. Oh, really? Yeah. Gavin DeBecker, that book, someone recommended it to me probably four years ago. And I have read it no less than three or four times since then. I have it highlighted. I have things highlighted in mine.

It's so stinking good. And I actually got one of the things from that book that I continue to take and like integrate it into my business and not even just like safety stuff was he has like a whole list of questions to ask people when you're doing interviews to hire people. And there's one question he had that I have done in every single interview where I ask people, tell me about your worst boss and then tell me about your best boss. And it is such a telling question because

But the way he talks about instinct in that book is like exactly what we're preaching in Crime Junkie all the time about trusting your instincts. Like we are born with this sixth sense about being in danger. And there's something about like modern society that's taught us to ignore that or like damper that. And it's only a hindrance to ourselves. It's really true. One of the things that he talks about in it, and I'm sure I'm paraphrasing, well, I know I'm paraphrasing it, but is that thing that we all,

It's exactly what you're talking about. We're in a crowd and we look at someone, we just don't like them. And we're like, don't be, our inner voices go, don't be judgmental. You're profiling or you're this thing or you're that thing. It's like, no, no, no. Like when you think about it, in that room, there might be 30 people, but you focused on one of them. For a reason. For a reason.

So, you know, listen to that voice. Yeah. And I also really trust kids like my daughter when she...

doesn't like someone and it, and you know, it doesn't make sense, right? Like, oh, it's just like your mom or it's an adult. You're around adults all the time. Like I really hone in on that because my daughter hasn't been taught by everyone to just be polite, just be nice. And I think we're, it's something we are born with. Like it isn't, it's evolutionary that we can sense things that we can't explain. And I think it's the inability to put words to it and explain it that makes us cry.

question it or ignore it. And it can be a fatal flaw. I make everybody who works with... When my kids were young and we had different people around more so than now, I made everybody in our lives and everybody who certainly worked for us read that book. It's fantastic. And they had to read my version of it with highlights in it. So they knew that... Because there's so many... They knew what was important, yeah. Yeah, they knew what's important. One of my favorites is like, you know, people would say,

If your kid is in trouble or gets lost, lost in the mall, don't go to the security guard. Go to a mother. Uh-huh. Yeah. They're going to, yeah, everyone else is going to write you off. Like, you got to get people who have this, like, who get it. I mean, man, this is, it's like everything we talk about weekly in our episodes is so much of what we're doing in Crime Junkie is trying to do this, like, education. It's like, it's sprinkling in those lessons within the stories. So it's not just entertainment. You're coming and being able to take something away. And the amount of

The emails and outreach we've gotten from fans who have like, I was in this situation and I think things would have ended much differently if I hadn't known what to look for has been absolutely incredible. Do you think there's more insanity out there than we know or there's less and what is out there gets overhyped in terms of crime? I think there's more than we know.

And I say that because a lot, you know, I think what you will hear is that it gets overhyped that like, oh, all this stuff was happening. We just, you know, you heard about just what was happening around you and it didn't get amplified. But the thing I'll say is when I have done these like deep dive investigations and we've had a number of them now.

the amount of times like one person gets murdered, I can point to three to five suspects who like absolutely freaking did it and all the shady stuff going on in the homes around and the community around. Like that's when everybody's secrets come out is when something bad happens. And you think that,

Everyone's leading these perfectly normal lives. You don't know what happens behind closed doors. And there's a lot of stuff happening behind closed doors that never sees the light of the day. And I think we hear the most about the craziest version of those. But I think there's a lot of stuff happening. I know this is so dated, my reference, but I'd love your opinion on JonBenet Ramsey.

Sean, but I am one of the only people, I feel like, who thinks her family has nothing to do with it.

That seems to be for whatever reason. I've noticed that dad is clearly on a little bit of a publicity campaign in the last couple of years. For sure. Because he's trying to get them to test what DNA they have. So they've got some foreign DNA in the case that it doesn't seem like they're doing anything with. Or I don't know if they have the ability to do something with, but that seems to be his thing.

his goal from what I can gather. But that'd be great. That seems like a no brainer. And that's definitely like the groundswell seems to. And again, that's another one where you're like,

Okay. What about the handwriting, though? I know. Well, and again, I can't explain the note. The note is insane. The note is insane. The fact that it's the exact amount of his bonus. Like, there's a lot of things that don't add up. But it's one of, again, one of those things where I'm like, there's so much we don't know. I know that I don't know a bunch. And I haven't held the note. I haven't... You don't think the kid did it? I don't think so. I...

I would be surprised if that was it. And I've been wrong a lot of times. But I think that there is more to the story. And I think that they were one, when you think about when this happened in the 90s and we weren't as...

Or at least like people like me necessarily didn't have access to be more critical of information. We were literally just getting the headlines and the headlines were just the stuff that was selling. It's amazing how many of those cases that got so hyped up and everyone was so sure what happened. We end up finding out that it was just like a media frenzy and there was a lot more to the story. And I feel like the JonBenet Ramsey case is like a perfect example of that. Yeah, it remains one that's just...

It just, it's insane. What is your current true crime obsession? The death of John O'Keefe and the Karen Reid trial. Do you know about this? It's in Boston.

I'm not sure. And I am like, I'm so deep. And this is one where I was telling you, I was watching the trial testimony like day by day. And it's like eight hours a day. So it's like a whole nother full-time job. But I'm like so deep in now that I can't get out. Like I've invested too much time at this point. Yeah. Yeah. It makes sense. And this is, you want to talk about conspiracies because this is one that does go all the way to the top. So it's,

It was, you know, Canton, Massachusetts, just outside of Boston, January 2022. And...

A group of people are out having a great night. They all go back to someone's house and Karen and John, who are dating at the time, she supposedly drops him off. And if you believe the prosecution, as he's getting out of the car, she goes forward and backs into him, kills him, leaves him in the snow to die. And then she goes home and then wakes up the next morning, pretends to be concerned and finds him. And that's what they charged her with second degree murder. And that's their story.

Since then, and she's on trial right now defending herself, the stuff that has come out has suggested that he did in fact make it into that house. Something happened to him. He was placed out in the snow to die and she was framed for it by police because everyone in that house is police or was connected to police. And it sounds too fantastical to be true,

until you listen to the trial testimony and look at the evidence. And it is unbelievable what is going on. Okay, that, by the way, that's the greatest Lifetime movie that's ever been pitched. I have literally already pitched this to someone for scripted TV. Because I'm like, this is, and you have your, there's a blogger who's just like taken over the world because he's like his own character. It is, it's wild.

That is... Okay, I'm going to have to get into this one. I was going to say, that's what you can do. Let's partner up on this. You can play Alan Jackson, the defense attorney. He's a real character. Not Alan Jackson, the country singer. Alan Jackson, the defense attorney. It's incredible. I did the Casey Anthony story and played the prosecutor in that. And that was...

Listen, courtroom drama, there's nothing better than courtroom drama. I love it. Nothing, nothing, nothing, nothing, nothing better than courtroom dramas. I literally just remembered I am making an appearance on a TV show.

What is it? Presumed Innocent is coming out on Apple. Yes. Yeah. So it's not my face, but David E. Kelly, who wrote it, I know him and he wanted to add a portion in the show where they're like talking about media, talking about the case. And so me and Britt as Crime Junkie make a cameo doing a podcast about the case. That's amazing. I did it so long ago. I forgot it's a thing. Yeah. That thing has been in, it's been forever since that was being shot. Yeah. Yeah.

David E. Kelly, really. Between David E. Kelly and then Aaron Sorkin's courtroom dramas, I mean, A Few Good Men. That is great. I love A Few Good Men. We'll close with this. Have you seen this new thing that's popping up everywhere on my timelines about OJ and a drug dealer?

Wait, what? Yeah, that OJ and this drug dealer that came to collect like 50 grand from OJ was... Wait, I've not heard anything about this. That the two of them were the ones that murdered Ron and Nicole. And there's a whole...

How are you on a different, like a true crime TikTok or whatever, and I'm not getting this. I know, and that is showing up on my TikTok. And I'm not, it's, over the last three or four days, it's a pod, now in fairness, it's a podcast and it's two people talking about it. Okay. And it's two dudes talking.

And they have the dates and the this and the guy and he's a drug dealer and this and that. And they walk through the scenario of how it happened. Are they saying that they're like uncovering this themselves? I don't think so because they're talking about one of the things they're talking about is the two different. Apparently in the first autopsy of Ron Goldman, there were absolutely two different knives. Okay. 100%. Then they booted that guy off the case. Okay.

As it went to trial to a coroner who would not necessarily, he wouldn't say it wasn't two knives, but he wasn't saying that it was. Are you like very into the OJ case? Like the algorithms never lie. I was, well, yeah, that's true. Because the algorithm never, that's true. I mean, I knew all those people.

Oh, yeah. I like, man, it's like a different world for me. I've been to Rockingham. I was like, oh, so you came over that fence to where Kato was living. That's wild. Yeah, and I knew OJ and Nicole. Did you think he did it back in the day? 100%. Yeah. Okay. Of course he did it. Are you getting swayed? Did he have help? I've always thought he had help. Okay. Well, at a minimum, somebody was sitting in the car. At a minimum. Interesting. If not...

And yeah, no, it's super interesting. Then, of course, the notion that Ron Goldman and Nicole were lovers because I never bought it. I'm just, hey, I'm just here to those sunglasses that you. You didn't think that was true? No. No. You're giving me all the tea. I had no idea. Look at him. Why, yeah. The famous headshot.

I get it. I'm not saying that she would be remiss to dabble. I just, I will always, I feel like they have always said over and over, like there was nothing going on. And here's what I heard. Neither the prosecution nor the defense wanted that in. Like for both of them, it was bad for their stories to have them as lovers. Like they both knew it. Everybody knew it. Everybody knew it. And they both, and both for different reasons, didn't want it in.

The prosecution didn't want it in because it might, you know, there might be people that like what she was doing, you know, in her social life. Rob Lowe, you're blowing my mind right now. I know you're sitting on this like true crime tea. And that OJ's people didn't want it in because it would go to motive more so. Yeah, because he'd be pissed. Yeah, he'd be super pissed. So everyone just like ignored it? That's what I— What about like Rob's family? I don't think—who knows if they even knew? Who knows?

And by the way, I don't know anything. I don't know anything. I'm just saying. I'm just reporting what I've heard. Have you just been sitting on this forever? No. I've been, I kind of, like I say, I'm a dabbler. Oh, my. I'm a dabbler. I was dabbling in that. What other celebrity true crime tea are you sitting on? You're like a wealth of information at this point I can tell you. Yeah, there is. I'm obsessed obviously with Natalie Wood.

Oh, yeah. I'm obsessed with that one. What else is out? What are the good true crime? I was going to say, there aren't like a... I don't think there's a ton. No. Thankfully. We don't need any more crime in my business. Yeah. Yeah. You guys are doing okay without it. Hey, serial murderers, stay away from me and my people. No. Your people. Oh, that's going to... That'll go over well. Yeah. No, it's...

But yes, that's my gift to you for you to dig into and see if there's any there there. I have my phone with me, so I'm sure it heard us. I should be getting served those at any moment. If you're like me, you know, like my phone's right here. I'm going to get nothing but like OJ stuff now. It's going to forever. Like you're not going to be able to get out of that hole. What does your algorithm give you? What like interesting stuff does it give you that you might not, that you go, wait, how did they know?

It's one of my favorite questions to ask people at dinner parties right now. It's like, what is the thing you're getting served that like no one else in this room is? Yep. And for me, it's rug cleaning. Amazing.

It's like ASMR when rugs are like freaking filthy and then they're like black and then they do the whole cleaning and then you can see the pattern underneath. It is very soothing for me. So it's ASMR. Well, it's not even the sound. I think it's more of like a visual thing or if there's sound, I've always got the sound off because I'm like just scrolling in bed. That's so good. Besides OJ, what's it serving you that's not serving anyone else? Oh, it's a lot of Bigfoot content.

Bigfoot? A lot of Bigfoot content. Yeah. There's a lot of, there's a lot of like shaky cam. You're your own like season of Unsolved Mysteries is what this is. Oh, for sure. You don't understand.

You get me going on ancient aliens and unsolved mysteries. Oh, my God. I loved ancient aliens. I got a lot of Dr. Stephen Greer, Billy Carson. I got a lot of those guys going on. Terrence Howard. You know, Terrence Howard's in the news because he solved nuclear fusion. Have you been following any of this? No. Oh, girlfriend.

So Terrence Howard, right, the actor who starred in Hustle and Flow, one of the great movies ever made and one of the great performances. And then in Empire, one of the great TV series ever made. You just Google Terrence, just please, just Google Terrence Howard. I can't even begin to properly explain what's been going on with him in the media, but he went on Rogan.

Oh. With his theory that I knew about because I know him for years, that he's solved an element of mathematics that makes everything we've ever known about mathematics, including all of Einstein's theories, null and void. And I think it has something to do with, and my producers can help me with this, it's that one times one

shouldn't be one or something. It's something insane. But, and now it's, he's been talking to enough people. He's spoken at Oxford. He's written papers about it. And now he went on Rogan like last week and now it's gone mainstream. And people are like, did this guy just solve cold fusion? It's crazy. I mean, it's all a simulation anyway, right? Oh, don't get me started on that. I read the, the, the,

What was the first book about it being? The Holographic Universe. I haven't read that. Holographic Universe came out in 1990... I want to say 1993. And it was the first... Oh, man. Yeah, it was the first time anybody had ever talked about the universe being hologram. Yeah, I mean, I'm fully in. They don't need to sell me on it. So let me ask you this. So in other words, we're right here doing this. But...

out of the booth that we're in that we can't see. It's like a video game that you don't have to generate it. So you only generate it when we go there, right? Is that what the theory is?

Because, you know, in a video game, you think about it, you're playing Grand Theft Auto. You're driving down the street, and it's generating only what it needs to. Why would it be permanently generating things that you're not experiencing or seeing? But that's just saying that it's generating around me. Like, I'm not the only thing it's generating, right? Or you're saying there's like one consciousness and we're all... Yeah, there's one consciousness and we're all, like, they're just generating me, generating you, generating around your daughter. But it's never generating anything that you don't need to experience. Right.

How about the quiet now? I know. It's like when you're, because in my mind, it's like when you think about it too hard, it all like your head starts to hurt. Yeah. And I think that's because we're not supposed to think about it too hard. No, my head hurts. My head literally hurts. That's why I never smoked pot.

Because you didn't need any more like expanding. I didn't need it. It only made me paranoid and even more insane than I already am. But this is the stuff I'm upset. Like when I'm out by my little like fire pit at night and I'm with my homies, this is our dojo. This kind of stuff. Yeah, this is like me, my husband, Eric. We love talking about stuff like this. Like, I mean...

Whether it's conspiracy, whether it's Bigfoot, whether it's, I mean, I am all in on aliens. Don't get me started there. And then like, what is our universe and all the big questions? How about this? We've lived to see the day where the government has said, yeah, they're here. They're UAP as we call them. We know they're here. We don't know where they are. And then it was met with literally a collective yawn.

People are like, oh, anyway. Well, I feel like the way they did that too, wasn't it? Like, it was like deep when we were in COVID. When I felt like they tried to like slip that out. Like, oh, yeah, by the way, those are for sure. No, they definitely did. They definitely buried the lead, as they say. There's 100%. But to your point, it seemed like no one cared. No one cared. And I think it's because everyone has accepted that they've been here.

And maybe that was all part of like the long-term marketing plan. Like they wanted us to come to terms with it ourselves. Yeah, they're soft launching games. Soft disclosure, they call it. Yeah. Yeah. And then there's what they call catastrophic disclosure.

What does that mean? Yeah. So you got to do a little, you got to like, you know, I need to come sit by the fire. Come on. You need to come into the tent with us. I will. You know, catastrophic disclosure would literally be where, you know, everybody's been slow rolling it and fearful and, you know, pushing off legislation. And then one day there's, you know, you wake up and it's Independence Day. It's like the mothership is over the White House.

There's like, so I did a, I actually did a show called Supernatural, a weekly podcast where it was like this. It was the Bigfoots. It was the aliens, whatever. And do you, have you ever heard about Valiant Thor? Of course. I'm obsessed with Valiant Thor. Me too. There's one photo, you know, you've seen the photo? Yes, I've seen the photo. Yeah. And I'm like, and you know, people think I'm, you know, are you trying to explain it out loud? People think you're bananas. No, they think you're bananas. I think Valiant Thor was here. Yeah.

And I want to play Valiant Thor. I could do it with blonde hair.

That is your next role. Holy crap, there needs to be a Valiant Thor. Right? It's like, yeah, I'd be so in right now. People right now are listening going, those two are insane. I literally was like, I'm just getting my career going and like, I just ended it. Yeah, we know. No, you have no credibility at all with anything. How about this? How about you describe for the people who Valiant Thor is? I'm not doing it. You do it. Dude, I don't even know if I can. It's been so long, but basically it was, was it in...

The 40s. Eisenhower or Roosevelt? Eisenhower. Eisenhower. Okay. So, during Eisenhower's presidency, an alien essentially came down to Earth. I'm listening to myself all that. This is why I'm letting you do it, not me. And so, he came down to Earth and he basically...

Like, I can't even remember why, if it was just like he was trying to make contact for the first time. But there was like a more long-term goal. It was when we shot the nukes off. Oh, yes. Because he's basically like, you guys are going to fuck it up for all of us. Yeah, it was like we had the ability to destroy the world for the very first time. Yeah, and they were concerned for us. So they came down and they were like, and Eisenhower disappeared for a day off of his schedule.

This is all, by the way, fact. And his granddaughter says that all of this happened. Yes, his granddaughter. Yes, 100%. Yeah. And so that he came and he like, not that they looked like, but he could look like us. And they talked about a ship that came and like Secret Service was freaking out because the ship just landed like near the White House or something crazy. Again, I know what I sound like right now. I know, you know, you sound like an insane person. I,

But if you know what, if we had the ability back then, they could, you know, come save us right now. I think we're like, we're in the middle of some stuff right now that I could... I love all this stuff. You know what it is? It's like, my thing is, it's just more fun to believe. Yeah. I also think like, aliens to me, I grew up like, you know, Indiana. I grew up in a very religious community. And I, the way that people are so passionate, I can't believe we have wars over religion. Right. And...

I think aliens to me explain different people's gods. Yeah, yeah. That's 100. And I still come to the same place that there is one God consciousness. There is. And we're all made in that image. I believe it. 100%. I'm open-minded to anything at this point. This is so good. We need to do part two of this. We need to do...

I know, like we'll do the fireside chat one where we just, we talk about, we talk about Bigfoot. We'll talk about aliens. The supernatural edition. Campfire. That's our podcast. You and me, it's campfire. And all we do is do this stuff. And we have a gnarly staff that goes on and goes, hey, we've got some really breaking news on Loch Ness Monster. And we're like, let's get in the studio. Let's go. Sign me up for Nessie. Nessie. Let's go.

I mean, we can talk about the wood ape. We can talk, I mean. All day long. So good. This was amazing. You're the best. This was so fun. Thank you. This was awesome.

I didn't expect to talk about Valiant Thor today, but you know, it's always a good day when I can. Were you, just seriously, were you, did you think I would know who Valiant Thor was? No, I did not. I did not. Such a great name. What was the prizes? And I didn't think you'd have the T on OJ. You were, this turned out to be amazing. You were great. Now my mind is spinning on so many fun things. This was amazing. So good. Thank you so much. Thank you so much.

Wow. Okay. My head is spinning. I hope you guys were down to clown with Valiant Thor. That's all I can say. Because listen, that's why you come here. Because you never know what you're going to get.

That's our brand. That's what we deliver here on Literally. I'll see you next week. Listen, give me a five-star review if you're feeling so inclined on Apple or wherever you can review us. And thank you for being a part of this. And there's more to come next week on Literally.

You've been listening to Literally with Rob Lowe, produced by me, Sean Doherty, with help from associate producer Sarah Begar and research by Alyssa Grau. Engineering and mixing by Joanna Samuel. Our executive producers are Rob Lowe for Low Profile, Nick Liao, Adam Sachs, and Jeff Ross for Team Coco, and Colin Anderson for Stitcher. Booking by Deirdre Dodd. Music by Devin Bryant.

Special thanks to Hidden City Studios. Thanks for listening. We'll see you next time on Literally.

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