Caitlyn Jenner: This and That
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There she is. We didn't interrupt to anything, did we? Listen, I like to be late. Oh, okay. I mean... I like to be early. I show up on time. I told all my kids.

Punctuality, extremely important. What did they say? It's the courtesy of kings, they call it. It's a courtesy. Right? Yeah. I never understood that phrase, by the way. It's the courtesy of kings. If there's anybody on the planet who can be late, it's a fucking king. Welcome to Literally With Me, Rob Lowe. Our guest this week is Caitlyn Jenner. I can't think of anybody who is more interesting, have more chapters, more

more ups and downs, more just unbelievable life moments, choices than Caitlin. I was out on the driving range hitting balls and she walked up and

this amazing golf skirt and outfit. And we started talking and of course she was hitting the ball 10 times farther than me. And I was like, you need to be on the podcast. You would be so interesting to talk to. And she did not disappoint. Um, my favorite thing about her is how she just gets it and is also kind of slyly hilarious. So, um,

Buckle your seatbelts. This is a really, really good talk with an extraordinary person.

I have so much to talk about with you. And then I'm going to go and you'll appreciate this because your golf swing is pretty fucking, excuse me, spectacular. I'm going to stop using the F word. I'm going to stop. It's over. I'm banishing it. It'll never happen. But anyway, go on. It's a family friendly show. So you're going to play golf? I'm going to go golf. How's your golf game, by the way? Mine? Yeah. I, you know, it comes and goes.

I'm always constantly trying new things. You know, you always want to get better. Right. Last year was a very tough year. I had shoulder surgery. You're kidding. And that was horrible. I mean, it was nine months, not even swinging a club. I couldn't putt. I couldn't do anything. But the shoulder finally came back.

And just, you know, watching a YouTube video on golf swings, which there's a million of them out there. Oh, yeah. This guy was talking about because I work with my hands, how my hands work in this way. And he showed some stuff.

And oh my God, it really worked. So actually right now I'm hitting the ball extraordinarily well. So that's good. But who knows how long it's going to last? You know, Rob, every day is an adventure. Were you ever the club champion at your club? No, I don't play too many tournaments. See, that's what people think. People think I'm like this most competitive person and, you know, because of my history and

But I'm really not. You know, I was extraordinarily competitive back in the day. You know, yeah, I I worked my ass off. Winning was extraordinarily important. But once that was over with, I kind of said to myself, you know what? I never want to put myself in a position like that again, where you're so obsessed with one area in your life and so competitive in one area of your life.

Because there's so much more to life than that, than competition, than this, than that.

And so I kind of just turn that switch, that competitive switch off. I am still competitive with myself, like in golf. You know, I like working on the game and I'm competitive with myself. And yeah, I get upset with myself if I hit a bad shot. Not terribly. I don't throw clubs or nothing. But, you know, inside I said, oh, you just you dummy, you know, turn the shoulders a little bit more. Don't be lazy or stuff like that. So I'm kind of competitive with myself. But as far as other people go,

You know, they all think, oh, my gosh, you know. And plus, I don't bet. I never bet on anything. I don't get betting. I don't get it. I don't get it either. I could walk through a casino every day of my life and never feel compelled to.

to play any of those games or bet. I don't even understand them. It's a Nassau with a five-way wager. It's like, what? Nassau? We're going to Nassau? After the game? What's going on? I'm the exact same way. I don't understand that. I don't gamble at all. I mean, in Vegas, if you're with a bunch of friends and you go into the blackjack table and take $100 and play the $5 table and see if you can win something, you always wind up losing anyway. Right?

But I figure, you know, that's about the extent of it, you know? Yeah. I was trying to think also, by the way, of just how... Because I ran into you the other day, and we haven't seen each other in years. When did...

I'm trying to think of the first time, but it's not really fair trying to think of the first time I met you because you were such a part of my childhood. Oh, thanks. No, no, it's true. I don't mean to admit. No, listen, it's not about making you seem old. It's not about making you seem old, Caitlin. Okay. Okay. Okay. It's a statement of fact. I've been around a long time. Yeah. That's a fact. Yeah. Yeah.

You've been around a long time. I ate the Wheaties with you on the cover. Yeah, yes, yes. I did all that. That's when being on the Wheaties box meant something. Yeah, well, I totally agree. Actually, they had...

The cover of the Wheaties box has really quite a history. It goes back to the first real big guy was this guy, Jack Armstrong, all-American boy. And this is back in the 30s. It was General Mills' second product. Gold Medal flour was General Mills' first product.

Their second product was Wheaties. I mean, that's how far back it goes. Wow. And but Babe Ruth did commercials for them, radio commercials and stuff. And then a guy named Bob Richards, who was Olympic champion in 56 in the pole vault. He did it for 13 years. He did all sorts of fitness stuff with General Mills, this and that. And then they kind of dropped the whole program for years.

And Bob Richards, obviously, he also ran the decathlon. So in 1976, he was around and he calls General Mills up and he says, you've got to use this kit, you know, and he

uh then so they kind of kicked that program back in and i started out and did it for four years until then they had mary lou retin at the next olympics you know there are five years and then mary lou came in and did it yeah but it was a good run i mean we did a lot of things i mean where they had the weedy sports foundation we did stuff kids we did motivational uh films and

Back then they were films. Yeah, of course. Yeah. And yeah, that was the best association as far as a commercial I have I ever had because they did more as much for me as I hopefully did for them. Yeah, that was that was a real moment in time. And, you know, you have so many iconic films.

Images of yourself with a flag in Montreal Stadium. That was a once-in-a-lifetime moment. Want to hear the flag story? Yes. Because nobody had ever done that before. The flag, nobody done it. In 1968, the only other one was George Foreman. George had won...

the boxing. And that was the year with Tommy Smith and Lee Evans and protests and all that kind of stuff. And George Berman put up, he had a little flag about this big and about that big. And after he won, he kind of held it up and went like this. Okay. But that was the only time. And so that was in 68, this is 76, you know, and I wasn't planning on that. Now the finish line story,

1972, I went to two Olympics. Right. And 1972 in Munich, Germany, I was a nobody. I was 22 years old. I made it on the team. Never thought I ever would. There's no pressure at me at the games because nobody expected me to even be there. I wanted to get in the top 10. I got 10th. And but at the finish line of the 1500 meters, which is the final event, I had won my heat.

And this guy took a picture of me crossing the finish line. Actually, it was a black and white. And he had won an award for this picture. Oh. And so he sent it to me, you know.

And I thought this is a cool picture. It was just this floating across the finish line. You know, 72, hair's kind of long, looking up into the expression on the face, the stride. You could see the finish line right between my legs. It was like this perfect little shot, you know. So I took the picture and I had it blown up and I had a quote I really liked superimposed over top of it.

And then I was living in $145 a month apartment, not too big. And I took it, the little couch I had, but I took it and I off-centered the picture off to the side, not in the center. Why? Because I want that picture, that same picture from 1976. If I make it that far, I'm sort of planning on it. But I want that same picture with the finish line between your legs going across the finish line.

You know, and that because that's my final step. I retire at that point. And so I'm coming down. I'm just blitzing down the finish, you know, towards the finish line, going as hard as I possibly can. I want to get over eight thousand six hundred points and and break the world record and be the first guy over eight thousand six hundred and walk away.

And so I'm just boogieing it down that last straight. And I get to the finish line and my hands went up in the air and I let out this giant scream and my hands went up in the air and I'm slowly, you know, coming to a stop. And the first thing that went through my head, oh, my God, you missed the picture. Oh.

I thought because I hadn't even thought about it until all of a sudden I was slowing down and I'm thinking, oh, my God, I just missed the picture. I got my hands up in the air. My face is all contorted. I'm screaming. I'm kind of stumbling to a stop. No, I want that guy in 72 who was just sure.

gliding across the finish line. And so I'm thinking to myself, yeah, that is the stupidest thing ever. You know, here you are, you just won the games and you're thinking about this stupid picture. I look at it as that as I visualized every, I visualized what the final picture would look like, you know? Right. Sure. And yeah. And so then all of a sudden, this guy with two security guys on him, just as I stopped, starts, boom, coming up and banging into me. And what's he got in his hand?

but an American flag. And he's like, putting this flag right in my face, like, take the flag, take the flag. And so I go, okay. And so I took the flag and two security guys carried him off. Okay. You have to remember, this was 1976.

That was our bicentennial year. Our country, we were, this was three weeks after the biggest 4th of July celebration this country's ever had. Patriotism is at its height. It's in Montreal. I would probably say 70, 80% of the people in the stands are Americans. American flags everywhere. Our bicentennial year, all these things together. And now I got this flag in my hand. I got a camera.

Because I did this show for the Canadian Film Board, which was the official documentary after the Games. And it was called Visions of Eight. And they took eight people from eight different countries and just really followed their experience. And I look at these guys and literally four or five feet in front of me is this lens looking right at me, you know, as I'm slowing down and I got this flag in my hand.

And I'm thinking, do I put it up in the air? It's a little hot doggy, you know, it's a little hot. Yeah. Yeah. It's kind of hot doggy. I mean, I've never seen anybody at the finish line with the flag. But I thought, you know, maybe maybe I should just take one time, put it up in the air. And so I said, OK, here it goes. So anyway, I take the flag. I put it up in the air. Eighty thousand people go crazy.

And I put it down. I kind of work. And I thought, but that's enough. And so I keep walking. One other time, I kind of punched this guy with the flag and that was it. And I thought, what I'll do.

is I'll wrap up the flag, go over to my back because taking the victory lap with the flag, I thought it's just too much, you know, too over the top, too over the top. Yeah, too over the top. And so anyway, I went over to my bag and I rolled it up and I put it in my bag. And then all of a sudden I hear these boos coming out of the stadium and I look up.

And and here's this guy sprinting across the infield. OK, and he's got two security guards after him and the two security guards about 20 feet from me tackle him. Boom. Down he goes on the grass.

And this guy is looking at me with this look on his face. And what's he got in his hand? A flag. What is going on? Yeah, this is America flags everywhere. It's our bicentennial year. So I look at him and he's got this terrible look on his face, you know, like, look.

So anyway, I run over to him. By the way, that might be the worst French-Canadian impersonation I've ever heard. Yes, that probably was. I'm just saying. Anyway, I run over and get his flag. And now I got two flags. And I'm thinking, oh, well. And so anyway, I rolled that one up and put it away.

And then took my victory lap without the flag. But that kind of started the tradition of a flag at the finish line. Today, it's a little more than that. They got like their PR person standing right there with the flag and put it up. And, you know, who's got the biggest flag and this and that. But that was very, you know, spontaneous. I was not planning on doing that. I love, but I also love your self-visualization of flags.

of all, like you're saying, of everything that you could have been thinking at that moment. You're like, I hope this picture looks good. Because I totally understand that. Yeah, I mean, I visualized that picture. It was sitting this empty space on my wall for three years. And I felt like kind of running back, you know, to the finish line and cross it a second time, you know. A reshoot. You know? Yeah. Yeah, I should have, but I didn't. But I didn't. And then when I saw it, that picture was on the cover of Sports Illustrated next week.

And I remember the caption next to it was all it said, all right, and big capitals. And I love the picture more than I did the other one, because that was my emotions. That's how I felt at the time. It was this just a giant release that 12 years of my life and it was over and I did it. I mean, that was that was a time when all of that meant nothing.

It feels like so much more than it does now. Unfortunately, I agree. Don't you think so? I mean, we all... The Olympics were...

They were the Olympics with capital O. Yeah. The decathlon is the world's greatest athlete. That was the phrase. Doesn't help my golf swing. Yes, it doesn't. Doesn't help my golf swing. Titles don't work out on a golf course. But anyway, go on. Don't you tell the ball? Don't you know who's about to hit you? Who's hitting you? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Who's going to be smacking you? And it doesn't work. Yeah. Doesn't work? Doesn't work. It's very humbling. Wheaties box, all the way.

All of that stuff, I just think that our culture was so much more focused on unified stuff like that. The 76 games was the highest rated Olympic Games of all time. I believe it. They were getting in the 70 shares. 70 share? Yeah. Yeah. Okay. 72? Yeah.

Okay, so for people listening who are not hip to ratings. Yeah. So it's a... Caitlin is saying the 70 shares, what they got today, a hit show has a 1.3 rating. Yeah. 1.3 is a massive hit. It was a 7-0. 70 shares. Well, you got to realize a couple of things. Yeah.

What had happened in 72, four years earlier, unfortunately, with the Israeli thing, sparked a lot of interest in the games. And people were wondering what's going to happen here four years later. It was the last Olympics with no cable industry. HBO didn't start, I think, until 78, 79 was ESPN started.

And then the cable industry came in and really fractionalized the viewing audience, gave them so many more options. But back then in 76, it was just ABC, NBC and CBS. And ABC had the games. It was Jim McKay. It was they've been doing it for years. Rune Arledge, you know, all those people. And you had the right time zones. Everything could be done live. That's a good point. In Montreal. Yeah.

And being our bicentennial year, patriotism was very, very high at that time.

And so you had all of these things together that everybody watched. And now, so when you're done with that, what did you think your next, because you knew you were going to retire. But what I find that fascinating that you knew no matter what, that was it. You were moving on. What was the next move for you? You've just won the gold medal. You're the world's greatest athlete. Now, do you have a, did you have that moment of, all right, now what? Actually, the next morning I got up.

And I went into the bathroom and the metal was sitting there on the bathroom counter. No clothes on. Took the metal, picked it up, put it around my neck, walked to the mirror, looked in the mirror and said to myself, oh, my God, what did you just do? Did I on a personal note, did I build this person, this image up so big that I'm stuck with them the rest of my life?

because there was a lot more to me than just the games. And I got scared. And I'm thinking, oh, God, you know, maybe I'm stuck with this character I'm playing, you know, for the rest of my life. And there was so much more to me than just that. Now, I look back on it many years later, not at the time, but I look back on that experience and you go like, why did you do that?

You know, why were you just so intense and trying to prove yourself and this and that? You know, I was a dyslexic kid, um,

And I didn't do well in school, especially grade school, because the words just didn't pop up off the piece of paper. And you're so scared to go to school because you're not a good reader, you know. And then finally, in fifth grade, I found sports. And all of a sudden, this was where I could go and, you know, feel good about myself, you know, go on the football field and take a guy who's a good student, good reader and clean his clock, you know, and, you know.

That's a good feeling when you're young, you know, and I thought I love this stuff, you know, but it kind of built up a pattern and not that I really thought about it. Also having identity issues, you know, prove your masculinity, prove you're a man, you know, all these types of things all combined into me becoming so obsessed with what I was doing. If I didn't have all those things, I'm actually very happy for all those things because it made me who I am.

um uh if i would have been average like anybody else okay student you know this that sports would have come along it would not have been that important you know i didn't need sports i could do other things and and get recognition and feel good about myself you know um remember uh

The movie City Slickers with Billy Crystal. Yep. And Jack Palance and Billy Crystal are sitting around the campfire. And Billy Crystal says to the wise cowboy, you know, what's the secret to life? Jack Palance looks over and goes, one thing. And then carries on with the conversation. So you're kind of sitting there, one thing. Okay. And so finally, Billy Crystal, eventually a couple of seconds later, goes, what's the one thing?

And he goes, that's for you to find out. That is such a true statement. Everybody has their one thing in life, you know, that they just can't wait to get out of bed in the morning to go do it. OK, mine happened to be in sports. That was my thing. But because of that, I could grow as a human being. I could help the identity issues. I could help being dyslexic and go to college and do all the things I had to do.

But sports was my one thing where I could win. I could conquer. I could learn about myself. I learned about hard work, about dedication, about all the things that go into something like that.

And I think that's a lesson for everybody. Everybody has it. I was like, if it's taken away in one area of your life, okay, it's given to you even more in some other area. Okay. Your job is to go find that other area. You may be a great musician. You may be, you may be dyslexic, but in your head, you have,

Phenomenal stories, you know, and a great storyteller. It, you know, it can be in sports. It can be anything, dance, whatever it may be, an actor, you know. And you've got to find that one thing, you know. And I was lucky I found it at a young age. And we'll be right back after this.

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I'm fascinated with the notion that even then you knew that you were also another person. Yeah. Oh, I knew it since I was young. Yeah. But you didn't and you didn't talk about it. Of course. No, of course not. I mean,

What, what was the, when was the first time that you realized that you were different in that way? And, and what, what was that like growing up with that? I mean, it'd be hard enough as an adult, but you had that awareness as, as a kid. As a kid, I was never comfortable with my identity, even as a very young kid. Um, parents would leave. I was fascinated by my sister's clothes about, um,

Never comfortable in my own shoes, fascinated with all that kind of stuff. But you keep your mouth shut. You know, this is I'm talking the 50s and 60s. You know, it wasn't even a word back then, you know. So I just.

I found ways to just distract myself from those feelings. Sports, what a great way to do that. You know, that's a good way. Prove your manhood, you know? Yep. But those feelings, and I had times where it was worse, sometimes where my identity was a little bit easier. But

It was always there. It's not like you can take two aspirin to get plenty of sleep and wake up the next morning and you're fine. You know, it's always going to be there. You're kind of stuck with it. And for anybody who's struggling with something like this and every journey is different. It's how for me personally, how am I going to deal with this? You know?

And my story went on for a long, long, long, long, long, long, long time, you know, but it never, never, ever went away. I just tried to find ways to, to distract myself, to not think about it, to do other things. And so I was fortunate after the games and now all of a sudden this was gone. And literally that night,

uh, ABC came to me and says, Hey, we want to talk. Um, and I went, me, I was living on $10,000 a year and $145 a month apartment. Okay. Wow. And training my butt off. And they, you know, they said, we want to talk to you. And I went, Oh my God. Well, I had this guy, you couldn't have a manager back then. You know, you couldn't have any of that stuff. It was true. You couldn't be a pro stuff. Yeah. Yeah. I made no money out of that sport. And so, um,

I had a guy that I was thinking if I do do well and there's somebody like calls after this is over with, you don't do it for those reasons. But if it happens, you know, yeah, I got to look into my future. Sure. And boy, ABC called and, you know, yeah, I started working right away. And then, you know, so my distraction was just going to work, you know, now and then eventually became family. It came all these other things when I left.

which were a great distraction and and of course my kids yelled at me oh is that all we were is a distraction no no no no no it was a distraction for me who I was you know that was I loved being you know a dad I loved you know I had 10 kids raised you know six genetic four-step and

raise these amazing, amazing kids. It's, you know, it's what I've been able to accomplish. And I'm very proud of that and proud of all my kids, all 10 of them. They've all done amazing. And, um, but I just got into all those other things. And then here it was, you know, 50 years later, you know, all the kids are raised and I'm still dealing with myself. You know, did you, did you ever have anybody you could, you could share what you were going through with?

Like, who really knew who you were and what you were about? I almost called you. Just kidding. I would have been there for you. Yeah, you would have been there for me. I know, Rob. You know I would have. No, I had a couple of people. Honestly, I can, through those years, I can count probably the people on one hand. A couple of friends. It was always great if I could...

talk to somebody about it. Okay. Um, and I had one in particular girl named Wendy in New York. She worked for good morning America. Um, we became friends. I kind of told her my story and she was very open-minded and good and this and that. She told me her story, which is probably even more interesting. Uh, but anyway, um, and so we just became, and we talked over a 30 year period, you know, two or three times a week, almost every week.

I could bring it out, married a couple of times, a little bit with them, but not a lot, you know, but I could at least open up some with them. And so, no, there really wasn't anybody that I could really talk to. I got to about 1984 and I was really struggling with the issues.

From 1984 for a six-year period to 1990, that six-year period, I was a mess. I had just gone through my second divorce. And I lived in Malibu, right over that hill over there, in a little dinky place. I literally stayed there for six years.

I'm doing a little bit of work, but I wasn't even motivated about work. I could care less. And I, for the first time, got a therapist. Now, you know how hard it is back in the 80s to find a therapist that deals with gender dysphoria. OK, there's no way.

Today, you get this little computer and you go to, you know, therapist gender. Do you have a thousand of them come up? By the way, was that phrase was that phrase even in existence then? We had had Christine Jorgensen was the first one who was wound up in the media. She was in the military, stationed overseas, came back as Christine Jorgensen.

And was kind of overwhelmed by the media coverage because she did not like it and did not want it. Just kind of like so many people, they just want to go on with their life. Okay. Yeah. I mean, it's so simple. They want to blend in society and go on with their life and make something of themselves. And, um,

But also Renee Richards came out in 1977. That was the first time I was ever aware of trans life. Yeah. And she was the first one, trans. She loved tennis, but then wanted to play on the women's tour. And, you know, the media can be brutal. Right, right, right. Yeah. And they were really quite tough on it. This subject, this issue,

It's certainly not even close to where it is today. You know, I mean, this issue is all for him. We can talk about that, too. But back then and I I watched her and I was kind of amazed at the guts she had to do that. And, you know, I did meet her one time at an event. Couldn't talk to her about it. Hey, you know what? I'm dealing with the same. I got the same issues you do.

Except I'm kind of stuck. I don't even know how to deal with it. I hadn't even been to a therapist about it yet. And anyway, so I just, you know, I just said hi and moved on. I always regretted doing that. You know, here's somebody I could talk to. That was the person. That was the moment. Hey, let me get your number. Yeah, let me get your number. Yeah, and it's just, I couldn't do it. I was too scared.

And so that's kind of where it was at. So when I got into the 80s and just got through a second divorce, I was actually watching TV one night and on the news and they had a gender clinic in Orange County.

And I went, oh, my God, there's a gender clinic over here. So I, you know, back in those days, you call up information. Remember? Yeah. Remember those days? Yeah. 411. Yeah. What city, please? Yeah. Yeah. What city? And so I called and I got the name or they they hooked me up. And so I I didn't tell them who I was. And I said, I'm dealing with a lot of these issues. Do you have any therapists up in the L.A. area?

Gave me like four. One of them was a lady. And I thought I'd much rather talk. I couldn't talk to a guy about this. And so I called her up, went in and for the first time actually sat down and started talking about these issues. So for about four and a half years, I just tried my best to deal with it. Honestly, I thought I would transition before I'm 40.

You know, which would be, you know, 90, 1990. And I was on hormones. I had my electrolysis done, so much of it done. I had so many things I had done. And the media started kind of catching on. Bruce is looking a little different, you know. Hmm.

um, I would cross-dress and go out, but never ever talk to anybody. My voice would give everything away because my voice kind of sucks from that standpoint, but there's nothing I can do it. And you know what? I don't care anymore. So anyway, it is what it is. Hopefully it's, you're not going to worry about the pitch. Hopefully I have something to say. Okay. So, um,

And anyway, so I never talked to anybody, never did anything, never went anywhere, just drove around, you know, and I got pretty good at it. So I never got caught. So you would go out as your true self. Yeah. But not but not really interact with with people. Society. Not at all. Just to get out, be at a hotel, give a speech, go out late at night and.

You know, walk around the hotel or walk around out. They have big gardens or, you know, certain hotels I like better than others. But, you know. Right. Yeah. Yeah. Like the Opryland Hotel. Great place. Yeah. You can walk around in there with all the bushes. It's a beautiful place to walk. Yeah. I'm struck with how lonely that must be. I mean, I'm just. Oh, it's extraordinarily lonely. So much empathy and sympathy there.

It's it makes perfect sense, obviously, when you tell the story. But hearing you talk about it, I'm just I'm overwhelmed with loneliness for you. Those years, I was not a good parent. I had four kids. I was too busy struggling with my own issues and my own self. I very much regret that, that I wasn't there more for my young kids, you know, and I

So, but I was extraordinarily lonely. I have always been, because of who I am, always kind of been a loner. I trained for the games by myself. Yeah. By myself. I had a couple of friends near the end that would go training with me, but I didn't have a coach. I didn't have nothing. I was self-motivated, but I was very well coached. I trained with a lot of great athletes in individual events.

And but I basically did it on my own. Same same thing. And then I was alone all the way through those years. I've always felt that I never felt like I fit in anywhere. I didn't fit in with the guys. OK, I don't fit in with the girls. I'm kind of stuck here in the middle, you know. Right. And that pattern still sets up where today I mean, even playing golf, most of the time I play by myself.

I like the peace and quiet. I like to work on the game. I go out and play five holes, three balls a hole. You know, sure, when it's not too crowded, you can do that. Stay out of everybody else's way. Once in a while, I'll play with somebody else, you know, but not that often. I've just always been able to deal with things on my own. And same thing back in the 80s. Boy, was I a loner. It was very difficult.

But then I got to 89. I was 39. And I thought I was going to transition before I'm 40. And I know why you've said what what what was it about 40 that you that was like, this is what I'm going to transition. And then my other question is, did you always know that transitioning was going to be the ultimate end game for you? Every journey is different. OK, that's right. Every journey is different, you know, and this is my journey, my story.

Everybody else has. There's no right way to do it. Right. OK, there's just no right way to do it. It's what's right for you. And I just I just couldn't go any further. I, you know, and I thought to myself, you've got to get on with life. You know, you're sitting in this little dinky leased house, you know, and you're just rotting away.

And so I need to get back out. If I can't do this, because I can't do it, okay, I got to move on in life. And about six months later, because I never even went out, I was actually at a golf tournament at Riviera. And Candice Garvey and Steve Garvey, you know them. Of course. Yeah. Candice knew Chris.

And she was just in the middle of finishing up, hopefully, this divorce. And she goes, oh, she can come down and this and that. Anyway, Chris winds up coming down there. I meet her and we hit it off, you know, from day one. And we were married five and a half months later. She had four kids. I had four kids. We tried our best to try to blend that family. Never an easy job. Almost it's easier to transition.

Yeah. Yeah. That's amazing. With X's and this and that. Oh, my God. But anyway, side story. So anyway, that's by the way, that's a hell of a side story. Yeah, I know. We're not going there. I'm telling you, we don't need to go there. Yeah. And so anyway, you know, we kind of blended this family the best we possibly could. And yeah.

And we, you know, Chris kind of came in and took over. She was just honestly a Beverly Hills housewife at the time, but she was always around very strong business people and had, you know, great skills. And she goes, we're firing everybody that works for me and we're getting you back to work. And so she just started, you know, you know, getting the ball rolling again, you know, because I had not for the last six years.

And that part of this, the rest is history at that point. Yeah. Yeah. The rest is kind of history. Yeah. We kind of got the ball rolling. And yeah. So. Yeah. It's a ball like in Indiana Jones. Yeah. It's rolling down, rolling down behind you. Yeah. Yes. Yeah. We're the culture running from the ball. You got rolling. Oh, I know. I know. Oh, I remember saying to Kim one time about this is.

before anything, something about clothes, women's clothes. And, you know, because she's always in there and looks at me and goes, well, you see, I am fashion. Amazing. And I went,

You know what? You're right. What you wear becomes fashion. It's like Ty Cobb says, it ain't bragging if you've done it. Yeah, I know. Yeah, it isn't. And I always remember that. Anyway, so...

uh yeah the family uh you know that was the next 23 years then chris and i had two kids kendall and kylie they've done okay for themselves yeah those two seem to have done just fine yeah you know what are you gonna do yeah so that she meets you at and i'm not putting words in your mouth from what you're telling me one of the lowest points of your life big time yeah and

And how much is she aware? It's almost like she kind of saved your life in a weird way, but also like it feels like how much is she aware? And because it also takes you off the track you're going. Oh, big time. The 40-year-old, and it's 40, and I'm going to transition, right? Yeah. And now all of a sudden you're going to be 50 and transition. Didn't even think of that. I thought I just threw it out. Threw it out? Yeah. I just, I can't do it.

I can't do it. I just can't do it. So let's do the best we can. Actually, I started working out more, started doing all kinds of stuff. I mean, I told Chris my issues, you know, but I never thought that at some point down the line, you know, 25 years later that I would ever transition. You know, it was just wasn't a possibility. I was in this. I was going to be committed to the family. And but these are my issues. This is what I deal with.

And, you know, she was okay. And so we just went on with life and raised, you know, again, the distraction thing, which my kids hate when I say that, but it's not them, a distraction from myself. Sure. And they were wonderful. I love being a parent. I love raising kids. I love carpooling, taking them to school. So that really, and that and work. And then we started doing the show.

Everybody's working. It was, you know, they were great years. Great years. Hold that thought. We'll be right back.

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Qualifying plan required. Wi-Fi were available on select U.S. airlines. Deposit and Hilton Honors membership required for 15% discount terms and conditions apply. People who are alcoholics always have that piece inside of them that needs to be filled, and we fill it with drinking and drugs and things like that. I'm stunned that that was never a part of your story. I never did drugs, never was into alcohol. That's amazing to me. I can see how people get into that, but...

I just never I I always even I was struggling with all of these things. And still today, I like myself and I don't need to take a chemical or a drug to have a good time. You know, I just never needed that. I'll deal with my issues on my own if that's the case. I don't need something else. Yeah.

I like being myself. Caitlin, I find that fascinating. That is such a dichotomy. You're saying I like myself. I can be myself. But yet you you also were dealing with that doesn't mean doesn't mean dealing with yourself is easy. And yet I didn't think it was at all possible at that time. Those times in my life, I just said, you know what? You idiot. You can't do it. You know, you just you can't do it.

And that went on for years and years and years. After 23 years, Chris and I went our separate directions. My identity, it was not a big part of us separating. There were so many other bigger issues out there. But that was just the only thing I think because of my frustration with myself, I might have been a little bit

shorter with her, you know, near the end. But there was a lot of, there was a lot of things going on. And then all of a sudden we didn't have any issues. You know, we just, you know, it was calm. You know what, you know, it's not working. I know it's not working. You go get, you know, you have this house, I'll go find another place.

And she even found the place. She decorated the place. She did everything, you know, in Malibu. Right. And she said, I want you to feel comfortable. And that was it, you know. And so and there I was back in Malibu. Yep. And this it was a nicer house. Yeah. By least a beach house in Paradise Cove. Doesn't get any better than that. Nope. Right on the bluff looking out over the ocean. And.

There I was. And I'm sitting there thinking, I'm right back where I was before. All alone, back in Malibu. What the hell am I going to do with my life? You know, been dealing with this stuff my entire life. You know, this is, I'm like about 63 at the time. What am I going to do? I don't want to rot here. You know, I don't want to rot. Nobody, so few people change anything at 63. Yeah.

Yeah, I know. Yeah. You're kind of stuck in your ways. Yeah. And, um, you know, I, I thought, you know what, first thing I gotta do, I gotta get back into therapy, you know, and try to figure this thing out and found a lot easier to find therapist that deals with the subject nowadays, talk to her this and that. And I'm thinking, you know, and the big problem was, uh,

the paparazzis and the media. They were all over you. I mean, everybody watched that. Oh, all over him. All over me. Yeah. I mean, I would have four or five of them outside the gate. Soon as I came out, they would start following you. I mean, I had helicopters flying over Sherwood. You know, I mean, the list went on and on and on. And it was just horrible. And writing all sorts of stupid stuff.

I mean, go on the grocery line and there's, you know, I think it was Us magazine, some woman's body with my head on top. You know, I'm going, Rob, I'm going. And my kids got to see this, you know, and, you know, stupid pictures of me. And, oh, it was just nobody knew what's going on. And they're all wondering and.

And it was just literally hell. You know, it was it was hell. My life was not my own. No, it wasn't. Yeah, it just wasn't my own. And I started thinking, you know, and talking to my therapist. And then for the first time, transitioning actually became an option. One, I don't want to die that way. I even thought about.

In the casket, right in my will. OK, dress me in a really cute outfit in my casket because that's the way I want to go to heaven. That's how bad you get with this stuff. You know, it's amazing. Yeah. And it's amazing. Yeah. And so, you know, I talk to my therapist and this and that. So I said, first thing I got to do, I got to talk to all my kids. The only one up to that point I ever talked to was Kim.

And Kim asked me nine months earlier, what the hell's going on with you? And at the time I thought, um, Kim's very open and direct. And, um, and I said, well, you want to know? She had her own house in Beverly Hills. And I said, uh, I'll come over to the house and we'll sit down and talk. And so I sat down with her and told her my story, you know, kind of shocked, but very nice. Um,

And every time I told anybody, it was like a million pounds. Really? Oh, it was just like, oh, I can breathe. You know, I'm free. I got somebody that I can actually talk to about. And then she never brought the subject up again. And that kind of bothered me that she never like called and said, you know, are you OK or.

We never, ever talked about that subject again. Cut to nine months later. I brought it up to her. You know, I says, we talked a long time ago. I said, but and then I never really heard from you again on this. And she goes, honestly, and I respect her for it. She's I just didn't know how if I should talk about it. Sure. Being worse makes perfect. Yeah. I mean, it makes perfect sense. So and I didn't bring the subject up anymore. Right.

And so she just never brought it up again. It's hard enough to talk to your parents, step-parents, sometimes about subjects way less fraught than transitioning. Yeah, yeah. And so then I slowly, over the next few months, brought every kid in, all 10 of them.

One at a time. I didn't want them to all gang up on me. Yeah. And one at a time, sat him down, told him what's going on. These are my options. They all knew what's going on. You know, I mean, Brandon and Brody, their their mom had talked to him about the issues because she obviously knew. And Bert and Casey, same thing. Their mom, Christy, had talked to him about the issues. And Chris, a little bit, I guess.

And so we sat down and talked to him. I started with Brandon, who's my musician and very introspective. And he's a musician, songwriter, producer. You know, he's one of those guys, you know. So I thought, yeah, I'll start with Brandon. He'll, you know, although we've never talked about it, I'm pretty sure his mother has talked to him about it.

And so anyway, about three quarters of the way through the conversation, he goes, Dad, he says, I've always been so proud that you're my father. You know, he goes, if I go to the airport and I show him my ID, they look at it and see Brandon Jenner. Oh, is your father Bruce Jenner? Yeah. And he'd go, yeah. And the people would say, oh, you know, Bruce comes through here all the time. He's always so nice and this and that and always have nice things to say.

And see, because I've always been so proud to be your son. And then he looks at me and he goes, but you know what? I've never been more proud of you than I am right now. Amazing. Heavy stuff. Cried over that one. Still makes you cry today. And that was a good start. They weren't all quite like that. They weren't all quite like that, but a good start. And I went through all 10 kids. Was that the most surprising reaction you got?

That was certainly the nicest reaction, you know. And still at this point, I didn't know if I could pull this thing off. The last one I had to go to was my pastor. And I am a person, I don't go to church every day, but I mean, I'm a person of faith, believe in God. And if anybody has any challenges in life, you know, and they have any faith whatsoever in their soul,

They always ask why. And I would ask, like, God, why did you is there a reason for this? OK, why are these things inside me that I can't get rid of that I have a really hard time dealing with? I don't know. Am I doing is there a reason you put me on this earth? Am I doing the right thing? Right. You know, and you ask that question. And because you always think of, OK, that day you go up to the pearly gates, stand there.

in front of God and say, hey, did I do a good job? You know, did I do okay? You know, and I always wondered what his answer would be. Oh, well, you know, you should have transitioned. You could have changed the world. You could have did this. You could have done that. And so I went to my pastor. I told him my whole story. He had seen a lot because of the rag papers were all over the place and paparazzis and this and that. But I told him my story and in God's eyes, how does he see me?

And he says, God loves you and on and on and on. And the next day I was thinking about all these things and I was into RC helicopters. These remote control, highly powerful, very quick, the hardest thing in the world to do. And I was, because I needed to get out of the house. And so that was one way I got out of the house, work on these helicopters. And so I was out in this open field

And I put the helicopter down and I'm thinking about what had happened the night before. And I go for a walk all by my little lonesome out in the woods through the trees, thinking to myself, you know what? Maybe God did this because he wants me to make a change in the world, make a difference. This is a big subject, bigger than the games, bigger than all that sort of stuff.

People don't die at the Olympic Games. People are murdered for being trans. It's the most marginalized community in the world. It's totally misunderstood. Maybe me living my life authentically and trying to talk about this subject can bring some light to a lot of especially young people who are struggling, you know.

And because I had thought about suicide at times, you know, during over the last few years, I thought about that because the paparazzis were just so ridiculously bad. I thought that's kind of the easy way out. But I can see how somebody would get to something like that. And then I thought, you know, that would be the stupidest thing in the world to silence my voice. You know, I said, that doesn't do anything. You know, OK, it's a.

Thing in the paper, you know, Bruce Jenner committed suicide. And then they go on to the next thing. I said, so maybe I stay here and my voice should be heard. So that was kind of the turning point right there. That walk, the walk in the woods after the conversation with your pastor. Yeah, that was kind of the one. Yeah, that conversation with myself to say, I don't want to silence my voice. OK, I have no idea.

What the reaction of people is going to be, you know, I could be that is the biggest freak I've ever seen to, you know, oh, my God, trying to make a difference in the world. You know, it can go anyway. Yeah. So I thought, OK, how do I do it? My first phone call, Alan, you're up. Come on.

By the way, this is my publicist, Alan Nirob, who has worked with me for publicity forever and represented Bruce and then now Caitlin. But that's my favorite. I thought you were going to tell me you went to, I called a Nobel Peace winning prize winning. No, no. I called Alan Nirob.

He could fix it. I called Rob Lowe's publicist. Yeah, Rob Lowe's publicist. See, back in the 80s, when I was going through these struggling years and the media, I mean, it wasn't like it is today. They were wondering. And Alan had just got, you know, he went from being a secretary or whatever he's to do in the mailroom to becoming a

um an actual agent and they gave it me i was with dale olsen and dale olsen oh yes yeah we got some guys back then yeah anyway so uh and so i uh uh i had to tell him my story back in the 80s you know i said this is what's going on i had my manager uh my lawyer a guy named alan rothenberg and alan in the room back in the 80s and i told him my story this is what i'm dealing with

because the New York Times was trying to do an article that I was a cross-dresser. Because I had been on hormones, things were changing a little bit, this and that. And I said, I can't have that come out. I got all these other things that I'm doing. Can't have that come out. So, Alan was able to shut the New York Times down by basically saying, I'm Bruce's publicist, and

Are you kidding me? Bruce Jenner? World's greatest athlete? Yeah, right. Jesus, don't write this. It's so stupid. You know? So he was able to shut it down. And then I didn't work for a long time, so I didn't use Rogers & Cowan. I ran, saw Alan a couple of times, you know, at some event. But, and then when I started doing Keeping Up, they had their own publicist, so I didn't need a publicist. So...

Now, I didn't even I didn't know if he was even still at Rogers and Cowan. So I just call information, Rogers and Cowan, Beverly Hills. Just one second. Put it in secretary. Somebody picks up. I said, Alan, you're up, please.

She goes, just one second. No way. He's still here. Find out now he's president of R&C. He's not a cub reporter anymore. He's now president of R&C. And boy, Alan picks up the phone immediately. Because obviously he had been seeing all the crap that I've been going through over the last years. And picks up immediately.

and says, how are you doing? And I said, fine. I said, I need to talk to you. And he goes, okay, this is like Thursday. I'll be at your house on Saturday. So he came out to the beach house that I was leasing at the time. And we sat down and I said, if I was pretty sure I was going to do it, but I had to do it right.

I had to at least give it my best shot to try to do it right. Because not just for me and my family, the two most important things, but for the community. You know, it's such, I mean, we're bringing this issue forward. And so I said to him, you know, we talked about how to do it. I suggested Vanity Fair as a print ad.

Just because they were very credible, but also they're a little on the edgy side. You know, they do kind of some funky stuff. I thought that would be. And obviously we have to do something on television.

We both loved Diane Sawyer because I had to take this issue out of the gutter, out of the tabloids and do it on a hard news story on the network with a real news credible person. There was nobody better than Diane Sawyer. So we wound up putting those things together, you know, over the next couple of weeks.

And I remember Alan calling me and saying, well, you got the cover of Vanity Fair. Now, I'm technically still bruised at the time. I go, oh, my God. And anyway, we put this whole thing together and it's been it's been great. Is it easy? No, not even close. You know, you set one set of circumstances together.

And one set of challenges, you replace it with a whole lot of circumstances and a whole new set of challenges. OK, life's not easy, you know. But the bottom line is I wake up in the morning and I'm happy. I mean, that's pretty much what it comes down to. Yeah, there's times where, you know, things are tough for kids or this or that and all that sort of thing. But the identity issues are all gone. Yeah. So I go on and live my life.

By the way, this has been such a magnificent talk. And I'm just blown away with the amount. Because we didn't know each other that well. We would see each other. I've known of you. Obviously, I feel like I grew up with you. Like everybody in America, I was transfixed with the reintroduction to the real you. And thought it was so beautifully handled. I'll never forget seeing the Vanity Fair cover.

Ever. It's an amazing cover. But like... That was... Okay, here's the deal on the Vanity Fair cover. Yeah, tell me about that. Because that's a beautiful, amazing, like, classic. So they say I got Vanity Fair. So I had a few things I had to do between now and then. And then Alan calls up and says, Annie Leibovitz is going to do the photo shoot. Are you kidding me? Annie Leibovitz? Met her, came out here. Now...

At this point, Diane Sawyer hasn't even been on the air yet. Okay, we're just planning all this sort of stuff. Because Alan wanted, you know, Diane Sawyer. And then like two months, three months, two months later, you know, then Vanity Fair. And then two months after that, which they came to us eventually. We didn't know at the time, but the ESPY award would be my first public appearance. Yep. And so...

You won the Arthur Ashe Award. Arthur Ashe Award. Yeah. For courage. Anyway, so...

Um, Annie Leibovitz comes to the house. I mean, I've got so much security around this house because nobody knows what's going on. Okay. Um, I had to build a wall for like four months, five months around the front of my house because I was having paparazzis taking pictures from another hill. I live on top of a hill. Um, so I could even just walk out to my pool, you know?

And when Annie came under complete, you know, secrecy that she was here, I mean, we built a studio in my garage, took all the cars out. She built a studio down there. And all this going on, I had never had my hair or my makeup done professionally. OK, at this point, I had a stylist. I'm thinking this is this is ridiculous.

The hardest thing in the world in the old days is like buying clothes. Okay. You know, you do it Zappos online or, you know, before that, you just, you know, it was so difficult. Caitlin, how tall are you? Well, always 6'2". And then last physical, the lady said, you're 6'1". And I go, no, you're not. No, I'm not. You mismeasured.

She goes, no, you're 6'1". I go, no, I'm not. I've always been 6'2". Remeasure me. Get up there. 6'1". I'm thinking this is perfect. I went an inch higher on the heel. Of course. As one does. I'm figuring by the time I'm 90, I'll be a perfect 5'10". 5'11", maybe. I'm going the right direction anyway. I'm tall, voice. There's a million reasons.

And so anyway, we take the picture and this and that. And I don't see the picture. Buzz Bissinger was going to be doing the article. I was with Buzz. Eventually, the two of us wound up doing the book together. And The Secrets of My Life by Caitlyn Jenner. I'm very, very proud of that. And so the first thing that hits is Diane Sawyer. Yeah, I'm sitting there. Honestly, the only ones I'm worried about.

are my kids okay me i can take anything yeah i'll go hide i mean if it's bad i'll go hide um i'm good at that uh but i'm worried for my children and i'm sitting there on the couch uh chris got the live feed at east coast feed and uh so it i could you know come on at six o'clock in the evening

So I go over there and I got, you know, all that side of the family, Courtney, Kimberly, Chloe and Kendall and Kylie. And I got Kylie sitting here, Kendall sitting here right beside me. I had not seen anything. Oh, the stress. Oh, man. That's I don't know what I trusted. Diane Sawyer and Mark Robertson, who is, you know, her producers. He was the best. They're great. Yeah. Yeah.

And love them to death. Because I told them, I don't want it just to be about me. I want it to be about this issue also. How's this going to come out? It started off as a one-hour show, but Diane said, I can't do this in one hour. So she went to the head of the network and said, I need two hours. The guy goes, okay. That's what happens when you have Diane Sawyer doing it. And so next thing you know, now she's got two hours to do this. And

about 15 minutes into it my i'm sitting here with the that side of the film of the kardashian jenner side and i think you can easily say the most social media family in the world they invented it yes they invented it they actually did they did invent it okay yep and um

And about 15 minutes into it, social media started in there going crazy. And of course, they're all sitting there with their phones, you know, and it was so positive. I remember the first celebrity to put something out was Lady Gaga. And I mean, then everybody, Elton John started doing stuff, this, that, the list went on, all the people that they are around. And it was all so positive.

And I really think Kendall and Kylie, because those are the ones I'm really worried about because they're younger, thought, you know, it's going to be OK. Right. My dad's going to be OK. Then I was in the other room across the hall and Alan had come out. He's sitting at the in the kitchen on the computer waiting for the Vanity Fair hit online first. And.

So he's in the other room. I'm shooting. I am Kate show I did. And so I'm doing hair and makeup and kind of waiting to see if it's when's it when's it going to hit. And my phone rings and I look and it's Kendall. And she goes, the Vanity Fair covers out. And I go, no way. And then Alan comes like 10 seconds later around the corner.

He comes around the corner and it says, it's out. And that cover. Now I had my kids, especially on the gender side, the boys don't make it too like sexy, hot, you know, you're 65 years old. Amazing. I said, I get that. I get that. But we did take this one picture, good old Annie Leibovitz in this little kind of bustier kind of shot.

And even when I was taking it, I'm thinking, I know these son of a guns. They're going to, this is what they're going to use. It's always the last one. I know. Welcome. Welcome to the female side. Okay. They're going to put you in some little bustier and the whole thing. Okay. I said, kind of get it. So,

Anyway, I had seen a picture. They had a couple of them that Annie had come out like a week before and said, these are probably some of the pictures. I don't know which one they're going to use, but these are some of the pictures. And one of them was that shot. And that picture was a big F you to the world. I had been through so much crap leading up to that. Sneaking around, media, press,

Just horrible to me, you know? Um, but you know, it was a couple of my boys didn't like, I thought it was a little too hot. No, but for me, I wanted it over the top. I said, I saw that picture and I says, you know what? That's exactly what I want to take this. Yeah. Yep. And, and, um, that was it. I was out. Yeah. I was out, but, um,

It was, yeah, an iconic moment. It got the best cover of the year for, you know, like almost a decade. You know, yeah, it was such an iconic cover. And that was to me, you know, say to the rest of the world, this is what I've been through. I've been through so much stuff, you know, and, you know, it changed the narrative.

Oh, um, Diane Sawyer changed the narrative. Um, it changed the paparazzis. They were still around, but they couldn't, you know, they couldn't now make up stories and do this and that, because I was honest that changed it there. And then when the vanity fair came out, um, it was the same thing. It, um, it changed the narrative, you know, now they had to name Caitlin and, uh,

People were very, very respectful. Okay. How did you come up with the name? What was the genesis of Caitlin? The name? Do you know how difficult it is to name yourself? I can't even imagine. Yeah. Think about it. You could do a whole chapter on just trying to figure out your name. And also, you've had so many kids, you've used up half the names you like. Yes, I have. Yes. I had...

Heather, I had this, I had that through the years. Heather Jenner is two Battle of the Network stars. Yeah, that's right. Third lead on Dynasty. I never told anybody that until after. But I had a few names on a list. And this was even after Diane Sawyer and all of that stuff. I still, but I had a couple of names and my assistant at the time.

Didn't see that list. It was all in my head. And said, you know, I always liked the name Caitlin. But she spelled it C-A-I-T-L-Y-N. And that was on my list. Not spelled that way, but that was on my list of like the top two or three. And I go, I'm sitting there. It's this, you know, a message from heaven saying, okay. And I just kind of said to myself, you know what? That's it.

Let's move on to the next subject. So I say, so I'm talking to Kimberly and about all of this and it's happening. And she goes, oh my God, what do I call you? I said, well, my name is Caitlin. And she goes, good. You stayed with the caves. It's amazing. It's amazing. And I went, uh,

No, I'm going with a C. Yes. I had to break it to her easily. I said, there's got to be, you know, a little separation between church and state. You know, I mean, you got it. Yeah. It would have been too much. If I would have gone with a K, the media would have gone crazy. Yeah. But I like that name. So that was it. And eventually it was just, that's it. Done. Next subject. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

I mean, it's well, we can go on all day. Like we can go on a week. We don't know. We can go on and on, but there'll be a part two because I've always admired you so much. And, and, and, you know, this is your story. Everybody is aware of, and yet the, nobody really knows me. Exactly. Nobody really knows you. And to hear the details like this is, is riveting. I mean, I, I, I just sat here.

enthralled and I'm left with so much empathy for you and so much, I'm just, I'm so happy for you. No, it's nice. It's not easy being trans, especially in the public. It can be, you know, very tough. But the bottom line is when I get up in the morning, I don't have any of these issues. I'm happy with myself. I've tried to do everything I can to try to make a change in the world.

And then over the last five years, realize that, you know what, I don't know if I can change the world no matter who I am. You know, there's a lot of challenges, but you just try to do your best. So when you go up to the pearly gates and I said, hey, how did I do? And I'll hopefully says, well, you gave it a good shot and you did a good job. They'll be sending you to the VIP section. You think so? Yeah.

I hope so. Pretty sure. Yeah. Good. All right. Caitlin, thank you. All right. Well, I had fun. This was a blast. Thank you so much. We'll stay in touch. Talk to you soon. All right. Until then, goodbye, everybody. Goodbye. How great was that? It's so fun to be a podcast host, I have to say, because you get people like Caitlin on that you feel like you know their story because she's been in the news a

for so long. And, you know, I knew Caitlin when she was Bruce and knew that story, but to get to ask her questions that I haven't heard asked to her before and,

just have this long talk that's not on some, you know, Diane Sawyer special. As good as those are, those are great. This podcast format allows a totally different experience. And I just had a blast and found that entertaining and interesting. And hopefully you guys did too. Thanks for all the support and listening. Show's doing great and you are a big part of it. So if you haven't subscribed, by the way, please do. And every Thursday you'll get a little update

You'll wake up and there'll be a new episode. So I will see you next Thursday and thank you for listening. You have been listening to Literally with Rob Lowe. Produced and engineered by me, Devin Tory Bryant.

Executive produced by Rob Lowe for Lowe Profile. Adam Sachs and Jeff Ross at Team Coco. And Colin Anderson and Chris Bannon at Stitcher. The supervising producer is Aaron Blairt. Talent producer, Jennifer Sampas. Please rate and review this show on Apple Podcasts. And remember to subscribe on Apple Podcasts, Stitcher, or wherever you get your podcasts. This has been a Team Coco production in association with Stitcher.

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