Macs and M3s, shot on iPhones
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Welcome to the verge cast the flex ture podcast of spectrums s i'm a friend, David pierce and I and once again in the ebert, pretty in course in washington in dc. That's right folks. I am back at USB google this time.

I'm here for soon, or petri the CEO of google, his ceremony on monday. And we learn fascinating stuff, ff, about the apple deal, about the things that google wanted to preload onto IOS devices. There's this fascinating alternate universe that apple and google could have gone down.

We're going to get in to all of that. I think next week, we have a lot of touching up to do on some of the trials with S, P, F and anti trust and some new anti trust stuff happening. Lots to get to you.

But for today, we're going to talk about two things. First, we're going to talk about the apple event for monday night, the big scary fast event with all of its new devices and unlabeled y axis. We're going to get into the new devices, whether they're interesting, why apple chose to do this at eight P M, E, turn on a monday night and a bunch more.

Then i'm going to talk to be saatchi from our video team, all about phone cameras. We've spent a lot of time this year talking about and shooting with these new phone cameras and increasingly on things like the pixel and the galaxy line on the iphone. The phones are the thing like that is the reason you buy a new phone here in an year out.

It's either that or like you're battery died, ed. So we're going to get into our phones getting Better. Are they getting more different, developing their own taste?

Are we getting kind of to a place onic ideal of smart phone photos? It's a superfund conversation that goes like all over the place, but it's a good time. All that is coming up in just a minute.

But I just found the cafeteria in this course after like a lot of days of being here, and that means I actually get to have lunch during the trial. This is very exciting for me. I'm going to make that happen.

This is the third cast we will see insect support for. The show comes from the crucible moments, a podcast from security capital. We've all had turning points in our lives where the decisions we make end up having lasting consequences.

No one knows this Better than the founders of some of today's most influential companies. In incredibly moments, lets listen ers in on the maker break events that defined major companies like dropbox, youtube, Robin od and more told by the founder themselves. Tune to season two of crucible moments today, you can listen a crucible moment stop com or very listen podcasts.

Welcome back. They let me have the court room that is very exciting. I don't have a cold anymore. Let's get to IT good .

evening and welcomed the apple park on monday night.

Apple held an event that is called scary fast for some reason in my head, this event is called spooky scary. But it's not IT was called scary fast. And there were science from the beginning that this event was always gonna be a bit unusual.

First of all, IT was on a monday at eight P M eastern, five p pacific, which is up against like money night football. Nobody was invited. He was all virtual. And like we talked about last week on the show, this sort of seemed like apple trying to flex its muscles in prime time.

My theory going in was that either this was gonna one of apple le's sneaky big announcements ever, IT was gonna announced IT bot disney or something, or that he was essentially trying to bury an event which seemed weird because Normally when apple thinks that has news that isn't all that interesting, IT just puts out a press release. So I was very confused about what this was going to be. And as you can see, I also had a million theories about how this event was going to work, whether they would be costumes and what we would see announced.

And I was wrong about, I think, just about every single one of them, but we get to that to talk about what did happen. Alex cranes and dancing for the here hello, hello, hello dancy for hello, hello. I have no idea to start.

I confess i'm so confused now many of us, after this apple of IT, that i'm not sure what to do. But let's let's just start with the vibe of the thing itself. So then we got this invite, and IT was for a pm eastern on a monday night. And we immediately started trying to decide, what is apple doing here? A lot of theories now that we've seen the thing, why did apple do the city P M on a monday night?

I think the strongest theory, which we still really don't know the answer to why they day night, but the strongest going theory is IT a testing of the waters to see if they can get the audience in the interest in the prime timeout me slot for when they do a bigger event that either the next iphone or the next ipad event or the spring event, whatever might be. That's my guess. And I think that in apple eyes, at least based on what i've seen, based on on the interest on our own site, they probably have the interest to do IT. And so going forward.

no, they probably .

gonna at A P M. On monday night night.

This is incorrect because we all watch this one because we were hoping IT was gonna be something interesting and something little more because I was IT was at eight P M. Or five P M. If you're on the pacific time, there was a little bit of like desire.

And then and said he was not just a very traditional apple event. IT was the most traditional. Yeah and I just I do not think IT was successful at what they wanted to do. Yeah, people watched IT. But are people going to tune in every time? Or did they just like waste IT?

Honestly, I think that for a knife one event, they could have IT at three in the morning .

and people will tune.

I think that I think the audience probably is hard to say this, but the amount of attention that apple can pull is so much more than basically any other company. And so apple can do basically what he wants. I will say that they did lean into the fact that I was at night like they're prerecorded, infertile, was shot at night, and they were all wearing dark clothes because he was spooky.

The dynamic range on the iphone that shot at .

all was incredible. In the next section, I don't it's just that's for beco to talk about later.

Don't even worry that there was lots of like cloud are smoke effects and you nobody wore a costume. I was hoping that they would eat a little bit more fun and costume.

I was a little disappointed that no one, even there weren't even like little jokey costumes that appeared for a second and dispute like I was. I was hoping for something nobody even had.

like a jacket, le lantern pin or anything.

right? I have an additional theory for what they did at this time OK, because I was sitting there last night after the event, IT was about eight thirty one, because event ended exactly eight thirty, he was a thirty minute event.

And I was like, why was IT at this time a day? Because generally speaking, you wants to get as maximum, you want to get as many people watching as possible, right? So everybody on the facial c coast is watching as they watch right before they leave to work, right? Everybody on the east coast, everybody is essential time watching over like dinner because I guess that's what we all did.

Yeah, we had people on our staff who are like, I just put my kids to bed in the middle of an apple event. What is happening here?

I speed ran bedtime last night. I like you all gain the bag russia teeth as fast as possible.

Got to go. I I would argue that IT wasn't the best time to maximized american views. And so then I like, I was thinking about IT and like, okay, well, maybe europe.

And then they know europe even later. So this actually a much worse time for europe because they're all in bed to sleep because it's sleeping time for them. So you're cutting out that whole market. So the best I could think was maybe this was for china, where would have been first thing in the morning would have been seven, eight o'clock, where we're currently having a massive debate with the country about processors and who builds those processors. And this entire event was about processors. So there I was like, is there's something there? Or was IT really just we want to see if americans will tune in as they're putting their kids to bed the day before halloween, in which kiss, I feel like that was a weird, weird bet to me.

I could see the china argument, more foreign phone event, a mac event.

But this IT wasn't a map of IT as much as IT was a processor event that had max in IT.

right? sure. But he was the processors that go into max. It's not the processors to go to iphone. And most of the ipad IT is like their desktop computing processors, but those .

processors are just as important, just like the iphone is obviously more important than the mac. But those processors as IT compares to to the other big folks making processors that go in computers and servers and stuff just as important.

It's a good theory. Yeah, I think and an apple is definitely going out of its way to flex itself as a chip manufacturer and always but .

the only differences, they don't sell the chips.

And I just about .

to say ah they sell computers that have the chips. You cannot go to apple be like I want to run a server farm, give me your chips so that I can put him in there. Like they are not competing with intel and T S M C. And the others that are fabricators and also building server chips and all the stuff they are building their products, their chips for their products that they sell either directly to businesses or to consumers as a fully fledged product. So like that's how IT is a magamed like guess they were flexing about their chips, but the only way to get these chips is in a mac and .

there's no other way then I needed to be the chip scenario because otherwise we're gonna be like doing A P M mof s. For the rest of our lives.

I'm with then I I think if you made me bet fifty dollars right now, on what time will the iphone event be next year? I'm going to say its its evening east cost time yeah .

because you know what evening east coasts time is. It's not the middle of the workday yeah. Like like for us, it's our job to watch IT. We stopped our whole work day, many workdays to focus on IT and to play afford and something like that. But for most people, it's like you were sneaking IT in the middle of your work .

then before I was a journalist, that was one of my favorite things like middle of work day. I be like, oh, i'm going to take my lunch and watch in the apple of.

if so that apple can make sure its employees work the whole day and then watched the apple of them. It's really this is about apple park getting its full productive views, right? Let's go on.

So I think I agree, IT was odd, but I also suspect this will not be the last time apple is this. But let's let's talk with the chips. So we got the the end, the entry pro in the this is the first time apple has launched the whole family of chips all at once, which I thought was very interesting day. And we were talking just before we started recording, and you were saying basically that the story of these chips is slightly more complicated than usual. It's not just kind of the good, Better, best IT has been in the past.

yes. So the difficult roll out for m chips, at least for the one in the m two generations, was able to come out with the m base model. And then six months, two months later, you'd have the m three pro, the m three max and eventually the m three ultra. And each one would build upon IT. So the unique thing here is that the m three, like you said, David, is all rolling out at the same time.

But there is some like real weird once you get into the pro and the max because not only are there m three pro and m3 max， but there's also like three pro with a certain number of cores on IT and then and three pro with more cores on IT and then and three max with a certain number of cores and am three max with more cores on IT. And that will determine how many features each one of them has and what capabilities that has. So if you want the absolute best CPU, you have to get the m3 max with the best GPU， which wasn't always the case in the past OK.

The way that apple split the power cores and the efficiency cores is not linear anymore. The m3 pro has a twelve core CPU on IT， and six of those are efficiency cores and six or performance cores. And then the m3 max does like twelve performance cores and then four efficiencies cores。 So in prior models, that was a like a liniers thing and you had the same ratio of performance and efficiency cores in the pro in the max chips.

But that's. Up ended. Now we have to see how that shakes out in the rural world of what that reformers means. But IT is just more stuff you have to think about and consider when you you're buy this.

I like this because ultimately, it's not going to be more stuff for most people listened to this because ideally, a bunch people, we're gonna hold of these things in benchmark, then you're going to get a Better sense of which is the right one for you.

But I like IT feels like the company is thinking more as being more thoughtful about their processor design by by adJusting the amount of efficiency of if you've got the max that's like the biggest one, right? It's equivalent of the A M D thread ripper, something like that. You don't necessarily want one energy .

efficiency there, right? You're buying that .

for like raw power. You're buying for a raw power if you're buying a pro as opposed to the standard and three because that's the other thing, is now the standard and three is part of the macworld pro line. So if you're stepping up to the m three pro for reasons, one of those reasons is probably power.

And I will tell you from personal experience, with a standard m ship versus an m project, I can max out those performance cores on a standard m chip pretty easily with simple word clothes and light room and self like that. And the extra performance course in the approach p allows me to to have the head room where I do not maximum, or if I do maximum, that is for a shorter around the time. And so that if I run a light room, max, work on an m series backward air, that computer is, I can't do anything with the until that exports is done.

Where's my m one pro? Even a two year old and one pro allows me to run an explore and do other things else. Me to do more, quote, professional task. But if the new chips don't have as many performance cores, then that might change the equation. But it's time to say without actually testing album.

that means it's still fairly linear from the regular to the pro.

You're right, alex, that there is still some measure of like good, Better, best going on. It's just that the kind of leap from one to the next is maybe less clear to me than before. What I have a hard time with the scene where I would want the base chip like why would I buy the entry level fourteen macbook pro, I guess, is a question we've been asking for a while because the macquarie has gotten so good.

But for me, it's like, I see why the top and computer here, the sixteen black pro, you ve got one hundred twenty eight cakes of unified memory, like the forty core gp, this think us what is IT like seventy two hundred dollars like like hell. Ah I see why that computer kicks. ask. What I don't understand is this sort of middle ground of everything is more powerful, but not necessarily sort of dramatically. So in some ways here.

yeah, I think we should talk about this space model because this space model is really the new thing in the line up. The others, the m3 pro and the and three max are upgrades of the m2 pro。 But now we have this base model fourteen inch macbook row with the m three standards ship.

and the thirteen inch is dead.

Dead thirteen. go. goodbye. Touch bar con loves to touch bar. E cranes.

I love the idea of the touch bar.

Lets be clear, the idea. Great execution. Not so much. Now it's gone. So now the proline starts at sixteen hundred dollars, which is a four hundred dollar Price drop from where I started with the m two generation.

But that sixteen hundred doors computer comes with a base m three trip, not a pro or max chip. And it's got other compromising. IT has eight gigs of RAM for sixteen hundred dollars.

IT has fewer ports on IT. They took away A U S B C ports. So there's none on the right hand side. So it's really basically set up like a macbook air except with an h my port in N S D card slot.

I mean, there's all kinds of little things like that. IT doesn't it's not fully like thunder able for certified in its part like and again, I just want to say this again, one more time for emphasis. It's sixteen hundred dollars in IT has eight gigs of for him that is lucious like that should not be allowed. Apple should be ashamed of itself for trying to to people.

And like apple's line is that unified memory is more efficient. You need as but my retort to that is you can hit swap very easily on an eight gig by, oh, mac. I've done IT.

We've done IT. interesting. I hit swap on my sixteen, eight mac all the time and you do notice when that happens. And then if eighty was all anyone needed to bye, you selling sixteen, six and twenty four gig up grades for two hundred and four job anyways.

So now you have this computer at sixteen hundred dollars that is right next to the Price of the fifteen inch macbook air that has a largest screen, a lighter chasa thinner design, all that a little bit cheaper. But the question is, like now you have even more of a confusion is like, what do you go for? Like if you wanted prior to this, if you wanted the good pro computers, you started to two thousand dollars. You ve got a faster processor, more capable, more ports, all the whole nine yards, and you ve got the great display in all that kind of stuff. Now the main difference is the screen and a ship, my port.

I mean, that's often been the big difference between the macbook air and the macbook pro. Like historically, that was the primary difference was not the processors, but the display. And people were like, yeah, I want to play more for pretty or display because I like I think that, that makes a lot of sense. I honestly, I think this positioning makes sense because it's saying, look, if you if you care, just about lightness and good battery life, go get one of the two ears, or maybe wait until they're released the in three version of those hairs, but go get those areas and then if you actually want like a Better display, if you want the good this way, then you get Better battery life in similar speeds for similar Price and get the the macbook pro, the base model.

I think that theory made a lot more sense to me, like six years ago when the air screen was pretty crappy, it's now you're going from like very good screen to even Better screen, which is again, like I think apple would be happy with the outcome of this conversation being most people should still buy macbook S I think most people still do by macbook s that's all finding good to me.

It's just like the macbook pro is sort of instability moving towards being the mac pro. I think that it's just gonna get higher and higher and higher. And but apple cannot let go of this idea that they are like we have to have one that is under two thousand dollars. And it's like just don't just get rid of IT, it's the air, it's fine.

The theory for the longer time was that they kept around that stupid thirteen and mac pro because this is, quote, a theory that businesses will only buy a computer if has pro its name and they don't actually care about the selection or whatever. And so they want the chief st. One that has pro in the name.

And to know the chiefs one with pro in the name is sixteen hundred dollars. It's up from thirteen hundred dollars on the thirteen inch model. I would argue that like that makes sense.

It's a much Better computer and that is who's buying this. So it's like almost not even a consumer pitch. And you can see that in ways where like you don't get a new color option, which is not really a color, but you don't get that option on the base model. And you like if you buy the sixteen years model and then you do upgrade the RAM, you're at eight hundred or two thousand dollars at that point, you might as well just buy the Better processor and all that stuff.

We're ignoring one thing, the air will come bed two fifty six gigg about its a storage pro comes base five twelve that's a fair .

point but the air start at seven hundred dollars .

yeah so to get the basically spin the same amount to boost the storage.

not quite. You don't get there. You you get close to IT, but it's still cheaper.

You get close enough that you're like, uh, if I spend one hundred dollars more, I get to a pretty displayed to 看 得到。

you get a smaller explain. And I would argue that, that customer that really cares that much or is looking at a fifteen years macbook here is by looking at that because IT has the bigger display and that actually matters more to them.

Then why would we compare IT to the fourteen at all?

Because they're in the line up there. This is modern apple where it'll always be where at you're at one point and you're like, well, if I just spend a little bit more, yeah, I get more. Oh, now that i'm here, I had sixteen hundred.

Well shoot, I really should get that sixteen egs around because some spending almost two thousand dollars for this computer already. I want to last a few years. So if I got all now met eighteen hundred dollars, this is how you step your, your rationalized, every single step.

And every single step, the profit margins are bigger. So like, this is modern apple. And this this say that goes with everything okay.

we talk about the eight five bites of and that's very offensive. I do want to talk up like I just still just think about that two hundred and fifty six gag bites of storage minimum on the air. That's just that feels as bad as eight ga bites.

I don't think that as big as as a problem as some of these other constraints on the prose. For one, the air. If you think about how people use computers these days, they are living in a browse. Most their life lives clouds.

This is spoken like a man who doesn't hord his data.

I D da, my computer is a terrible drive. I've got seven terribles drive plugged into IT. You talk me about data. I I pay a in order amount of fees for cloud storage in the terribles of range. But if I think about like a typical consumer buying the macbook air, a student or someone who s just looking for a home computer, whatever most of their life is living in the cloud, they are living in a browser and things like that aren't they aren't storing a lot of stuff directly on their drive.

They don't even know .

what files are exactly. So I don't think that's a problem on the air. When the airs first launched, there was a lot of controversy about the speed of that storage. I don't think that's a problem at that level either.

But once you add a pro to the name and once you step up to these Price brackets, that is where all of these considerations do matter and and make differences depending on the workload. If you are buying the pro computer and you're saying, i'm going to be editing images and video, I want to be a creator. I want to pursue this and self like that. You will quickly run into these walls if you stay with the base model. And that's just the reality of IT.

Yeah, my guess would be that the the kind of consistent choice for a lot of people here is going to be the fourteen inch, either pro or max, depending on the person, but like the sixty and just feels like it's so much bigger and more expensive that you're gona lose some people.

It's also just a big machine like it's up.

it's computer ah yeah but I think as the as the like you know create a tool for people with expendable income. The fourteen and with the pro in the max, if IT venture Marks the way we are probably expected to based on all of apple's unlabeled graphs that say it's faster, do you see the one where I was just like image processing, two x and just like what is that? That's nothing you just said. Image processing two x like that and with with a sweepy line.

they did have labels for the graphs, but it's very, very small and like just a shade lighter than the background.

The y axis is is relative performance.

IT said relative four years, that's nothing. Just don't even put words there.

just your lines in a look.

I I used to do this too. I would make charts and I would just feel I just be like people don't care about the actual speed. They just want to see big number and I got yelled out a lot for IT.

But I just think the m3 pro， i'm just I just speak this out what we are talking here and you can get the fourteen inch macro pro with an m3 pro eighteen gigs of unified memory， five twelve gigs of storage by block, two thousand dollars on the dot. It's nineteen and ninety nine. I suspect that one is going to be the one that most people do because you're going to start with the base one and like you're talking about, then just slowly step your way up to that. Anyway, that's the one I think apple wants to see you.

If history follows what happened with the m one pro and the m2 pro， that's the one that's like going to be in stores at best buy and DNA and they are gona discount by two hundred dollars when they put on sale. And then at eighteen hundred dollars, you have a hello computer for eighteen hundred dollars. And I think a lot of people can be really heavy with that and they should not get the sixteen hundred hour race model.

Have you seen the space black one? Alex, not very excited about this place back on.

Yeah, space start. great. I am not going according exactly. But James snow, over a six colors, had a really great line about IT in his p you should go check IT out.

But him and I were kind of talking about yesterday. IT is just a darker version of space gray. IT is not really black.

So if you have in your mind that this is the return of the black book, which was that black plastic macbook on the two thousands, this is not IT. It's, it's still grey. Shame.

never mind.

I don't want to say it's it's another shade of grey. They are claiming that this antibody zone is like, suppose there will be more resistant to fingerprint. And I did slap my home money and smear my fingers around on IT to try and see, but I was hard to tell if they actually remained or not.

I think once we have IT in use and see if it's any Better than midnight, midnight grows. Stop almost immediately. This might be slightly Better.

Let's not put the imac for two minutes, which I think is as long as the imac deserves. I started out when apple announced the imac, which is literally just the same damn computer, but they took out the old chip, and they put in the new chip the end. No new accessory, no, nothing, still lightning keyboard.

I was outraged ed by this. I'm still kind of outraged ed by this, but I also now understand this. And what I think IT is, is apple believes that there are people who buy IMAX, and that's a very specific set of person.

And what they are going to do is they're going to take there. Eleven year old imac that they bought that runs an intel thing and no longer get software updates in is basically falling apart. They're going to replace IT with this one.

And there going to be very happy. And I think they're great. And I think that is like a sad way to think about the imac line at this point in time. But I think that's where we are.

The imac was always there, though. There was like the bit of time where the imac was used by kids and tees. But for the most part, it's always been like your parents computer that they keep in their computer room because they're the ones that still have computer rooms.

Yes, IT served the role as the shared family computer, where the home computer, and I would argue that at this point, that is an increasingly shrinking audience and does not exist for the reality of most modern families or modern homes. People have moved on to personal devices, whether the chrome ooks or laptops are iphones or tablets or whatever. So that makes sense to me that they are not throwing lots of investment at the imac like David, like we don't have an imac pro because the mac studio exists and the mac pro exists and that serves that was customers Better because they can swap out that computer without having to like deal with the whole thing and the audience for IMAX, but we all know, is you go into a spot or a fancy doctor's office or whatever, and they are sitting there on the desk as your .

tracking computers itchen according to apple. What you think you just hang in?

Yeah, I can't wait to read divorce notes of like the husband insisted on putting the eye back in the kitchens so they ve got life is like, this is invading my space but yeah, that's a reality of IT. So what we got is you i'm glad that they didn't completely ignoring imac like they have for two hundred and half years, that they did put a faster chip in IT, but everything else is exactly the same. They wouldn't great to have USB c accessories because I wouldn't heavily replaced to some of my older accessories.

These Prices are goofy. If I reading this correctly, the base model imac doesn't have U S, B ports.

There has two instead of four. So the base model, this is the same as m one generation has two USB c ports in the back. If you upgrade the processor to the higher been diversionary, whatever IT jumps up to.

that's goofy, goofy. All right. We have spent now exactly as long talking about the event as the event was itself.

So we're done here. This event deserves soft. Thank you guys.

Um dan, i'm assuming we will have reviews of these is at some point in the hopefully not the future. So stay tuned for that. Stay to thank you both. We got to take a break and then we're going to come back and were going talk about cameras like iphones, which should event sometimes at night. 后边 的。

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Back right at the end of the apple thing the other night, there was this little notice on the stream that said the event had been shot on an iphone, an iphone fifteen pro max, I think, and edited on a mac, which is impressive given all the dark shots and sweepy drone stuff in the huge mpt rooms in the tRicky camera moves. IT was a pretty good flex for apple. But how big of flex? really? That's the question for me.

The event was shot on our iphone, but as we saw in some of the behind the scenes footage, IT was an iphone plus like a room full of giant lights and a bunch of drones and gambles and much more. They didn't just like put the phone in video mode and pointed at tim cook. I mean, and I don't mean that is a dig.

That's not how anyone ever shoots anything professional. And this is still really cool. And actually, one of the things I thought was interesting was one of the folks who have produced the event said that IT was remarkable, how not different IT was to use the iphone. Here's a clip from the behind the scene shot.

We're able to get the same complex shots on such a small device, similar to how we would do any traditional camera. We're on cranes, dolly drone shots. This always is .

a question we've been kind of asking all year how good our smart phone cameras really have. They gotten so good over the last fifteen years that we've stopped noticing the ways they keep getting Better, but they continue to be mind blowing. Are they going to be as good as or Better than big pro level cameras anytime soon? We've been made these grand promises, the evolution of smart t phone cameras.

Where are we on that road to figure that out? I grab ed back up for sati, who has been running around all summer and fall, taking photos and video with all of these new highs mart phones. And we're going to get to the bottom of this deca.

Welcome back to the verge test.

Let's have come as because you've been doing tests of really the iphone in the pixel. The two are most curious about. And I think the biggest question that i've had over the course this year is where are we in smart phone cameras? I feel like we we've been on this trend of like smart phone cameras are getting really good, really fast, Better every year there eventually going to be as good as pro cameras.

Just you wait IT and I feel like that idea has really aggressively platov d for me in the last couple of years. But then apple comes out and like it's the most pro whenever you can you use video out through USB c this is a pro camera. Where are we in sport for the cameras?

Um okay, a question for you. When was last time you were impressed with the smart phone camera?

Truly like blown away, impressed. I think the the cinematic mode on the iphone was the first one in a long time. I had been a while before that that the cinematic mode, the iphone, was a moment that I was a holy crap.

This takes, I think I couldn't do before, and works I can. Now, all of my like, awful video walking down the street now looks possible. But just in terms of like the photos I get out of a phone.

it's been years OK talk to me about some matic mode, do still use IT occasionally.

It's one of the things that I used when I remember to turn IT on o which I think is the problem with a lot of phone cameras is they have a lot of cool features. There are six swipes away and that I don't use them .

yeah and that's something about the pixel 8 pro and the pixel eight cameras of m that I will will talk about interesting cinematic mode， okay? And that basically, so matic mode applies a blur effect to the background of your videos that makes them look a bit more. What someone called professional IT came in iphone thirteen, I believe maybe just the pro.

I think that started in the pro and has since worked its way yeah and IT stable as the things is are walking and just IT just feels a yeah, it's all the things really like I I want to walk through something as taking video and I used to just feel jumpy and bad IT smooth IT out in a way that like I will actually watch these .

videos later cool and that's a software yeah that's software. yeah. okay. So really you weren't impressed with the camera. You are just impressed with software. Is this company added that hardware side of things? IT is very slow.

But the way I look at IT, like I think you know you entered this question kind of comparing them to, you know stand alone cameras, cameras that have interchangeable lenses or that we only use to take photos. And there's just really no comparison to me because the experience is so different OK. Like when I picked up a smart phone to take a photo like IT feels like i'm picking up a brick and i'm pointing IT at someone and they know the adequate, they know what to do.

But when I pick up like a camera that's made to take photos, IT feels different. I feel like my purpose is to only take photos, and the person who is standing in front of me, all the sign is a lot more nervous. And so they're two like very different things.

So now if we talk about just phones and their cameras, do we think that they are progressing meaningly, maybe like every three years? OK, every three years? I feel like if you look at like the iphone twelve and you prepared to the fifteen, there is a big difference in quality. And I I would know because I use an iphone, but if I look at the fourteen of the fifteen, yes, no, you not to note different.

And I think now people are keeping them for the three, four, five years. So if if you're feeling that upgrade every time you actually upgrade your phone, maybe that's still come. But I just can't let go of this idea that for other of the last eight, eight years we have been told it's sort of right around the corner where your phones photos are going to be passively the same as what you get from A D S L R or a fuji street camera that people run around with .

four thousand dollars .

or what I ve camera, I million of them there. They're all x one whatever. They're just the fug three camera. But I just don't feel like we're getting closer to that at this point. I feel like we're teaching these cameras to do new things on smart phones, which are cool. But just in terms of like how my photos and videos look, I don't necessarily feel like i've gotten much closer to I truly won't miss my camera in a while.

okay. A back to your point about like forgetting to turn on automatic mode, there are settings if let's talk about the iphone, because I think that actually, I do think the iphone fifteen pro camera comes close in some ways OK to some standard on camera, but you have to be willing to click on button. okay. And I don't think you gonna be that person and I don't think phones are like I don't think they're trying to have you pick IT up and like take the photo that maybe you imagine that, uh, a standalone camera take, you have to go in and and turn some things right.

which again goes back to point about like the object itself. Like you just have all that stuff, one some movement way when you pick up a big camera in a way that on your phone is actually like buried and settings venues .

yeah burden settings and also not one fun yeah my god, I mean, these things are huge like I had tiny hands and reaching across the screen socks and i'm less likely to push lines that are across the screen. So let's make them small okay.

So like what what do you do on the fifteen pro to get there?

And so I let me tell you, so there is like a forty eight o mode, right? And you can turn that on and you can take a photo like I find faces, it's gonna find faces, like IT loves faces. And if you are, say, like five feet to away from somebody, and then the background is like far beyond them, you'll actually start to get some depth, like some some like natural depth, because the sensors are actually getting bigger and the lens is are bigger. And like real camera, things are starting to happen.

And so much of that is physics. Like you need space for those things. Real physics.

yeah. Can I explain? IT? Well.

some days I know big sensors good.

Big sensors good. Bigger lenders good, sometimes more. Mega pixel, fine. yeah. But yeah, you're starting to get like some real depth.

I especially noticed IT if I turn on like you know raw photos, forty megacles ba ba flip the camera around and I take a photo of myself with the main camera like that distance from like and I know maybe that's too feet on me that like i'm going to actually see depth and you can compare that to like, you know, some of the the lower and sonny cameras OK and it's like not terribly far off. You know, something that has like a smaller sensor, like an A P S. C sensor, like it's looking pretty good and the colors are really nice. I mean, apple has always kind of had a really great color science and and so it's just like for me, I love like a little bit more blue and so like denon, oh my god, the way that reproduces danna and just like, wow, i'm going to wear the steam jacket every day.

So are what else I feel like to me. Of the thing on the fifteen that has actually been the biggest improvement is the fact that you can now do you portrait, after which goes back to your point of, I don't have to remember the thing anymore. I can just take the picture and figure out what to do with IT later, which is a weird we like to talk about what is a photo.

There's like a weird philosophical question behind that. But just like leaving that aside, it's nice that I don't have to sit there and oh, I have two seconds to get this like cute photo of my dog doing funny thing. I don't have to swipe IT to portrait and then try to IT says, like back up, you're too close and then I have to miss that. Now I just take the picture .

and that is the thing sometimes yeah.

but I wonder how much we can put that in software because like, yeah, you spend a lot of time. One of my favorite things is to be in the verge office and just watch you or someone else on the video team set up a camra because it's such a good reminder of like there's so much time.

Of just you hit a button, then you look at the screen and you look at the history and that's not IT, then you hit more button and IT, just like there's work that goes in to doing this stuff that all these companies are trying to abstract out on your phone. I wonder how possible that is ever going to be. And if if the answer is just give people more jobs. Now we're back to like the user interface for that on the phone is just never quite gonna.

I think you can get really good. I can get really good. And I I see a world where you know the iphone starts suggesting more like try portrait mode on this. So it's like even more like you're not thinking about IT. Um I mean, google has proven time and time again with their camera systems that like software can do a lot.

And there is an amazing that you can do .

in post oh my god, amazing about if you feel like digging and then are so manipulating images. But I do what I mean flat out of a can do a lot. I don't know where we're headed. I don't have an answer for like, oh yeah, ten years like all of our photos are gonna this great blur and it's gonna more natural and the cut out going to be Better. I don't know.

That's what I love about my job is that like I get a new product and I got to be like, oh, did this happen this year but back to like the what is a photo like I love this question. I love you about that. I think about you a lot.

I don't think phones like really take photos anymore. I mean, they take photos, but like thermal pulsing. So much of the color there are like, I mean, and then now you can like change anything you want.

Like you can take a photo on iphone and put IT in google photos and change everything. So like this, to me, aren't like, let's stop. Like asking yourself.

Like, what is the like?

I mean.

I will never stop. And somebody described to me relatively recently, which that that was really interesting with what we're doing with our phone cameras now is to photography. What like the cameras spinning around on top of the google maps mapping? Things are where they are.

Like, they are fundamental data collection devices. yeah. And then you can do all kinds of interesting things with the data.

Google uses IT to map roads that uses IT to get strict view. IT uses IT to find places that uses IT for A R. And google maps like all this.

Technically, what IT is capturing is video. The point of IT is not the video. The point of IT is the data inside of the video.

And they are like, that's just what our phones are now there are collecting a bunch of data about their surroundings that you then manipulate to be whatever one I was like. That's a cool way of thinking about IT. That is fundamentally not photography, but that is a really interesting way of thinking about like what happens when I hit the button .

on my co is also think about what you're taking photo of I mean, I tell you what I take photos of, like, receive the jackets in the job. Number one is the number two is receipt you number three is like, i'll just like, oh, I wanted remember this restaurant, let me just take a photo of exact quicker like i'm not really taking like photos. I mean, like i'm collecting data as you're saying and so like I don't have this big problem around like our phones don't take photos. It's like I just needed to like collect information, you know and like and then i'm going to send that information to my friends and they can see that I I don't know when swimming and IT was really fun and that's just data to them to on me yeah Andrew are producers .

me before we started that we're still in this phase is where if you shoot something on a smart phone, you always say you shared on a smart phone like every magazine and cover. Nobody talks about the camera that they use, but they will always tell you that they shattered on an iphone. I love I do to and it's so true.

And it's like I could name you the movies that Steven sa workshop with an iphone. I could not for one second tell you what camera he uses. It's not a knife. And that to me goes to either we're just doing different things with different goals or phones are not getting anywhere near the realm of the other stuff because the camera shouldn't matter.

I disagree. I think if everyone actually knew camera is like, I would love to know what every magazine cover shot on because I know cameras, everyone knows phones. So of course, if you tell oh, shot on an iphone, it's like they know what that is. If you told me that you shot on like a night zy nine.

that's true. But I also think part of IT is like it's still such a novelty that you can take a full photo on a phone. And what they don't show you is that you have to do twice as much late and work way harder ity at that photo to look good on a phone. Yes, such that IT will exist on a magazine cover. But I just think it's still like, oh, my god, you can take a good photo with a phone and to me, it's like until we're they passed that .

where do not believe that. Are you still at that point where you're shocked? You can take a good photo on a phone.

No, everybody is still such a novelty. You can do something cool on a whole new youtube channel. He shoots stuff on his phone and part of the stick is i'm shooting .

IT on my phone to prove that you can. And it's genius because .

he's also like testing the phone at the channel marked he died, he did IT extremely well and very mart and he film himself doing self videos. Yes, great up. But IT is we're still at the point we're like I can do this on my phone is like mind blowing to lots .

of yeah interesting. I would love to hear from folks if you agree or disagree with that because I don't know like I remember casey nice that was shooting videos and like I don't know on his like samsung galaxy s seven or something and like that I was like, wow, that's crazy. But that was like at six.

No, that had to be more than six years ago. That had to be like eight years ago now. So I guess that novelties look like gone to me, like there's no double. You can take a good photo on a phone that's fair.

And so then you're point of like are we going to get to me Better? It's like yeah marginally and but like we can already do all the things that we want to do on them yeah um so then the bigger question for me that I get a lot is like why would I buy a stand camera? Like I really believe that people think that their phone cameras are good enough.

And so then I ask them, like what what do you want to do? Like what do you think a camera can give you that your phone is in and it's always experience. And that's like where I base all of my like reviews around is like what is the experience of holding this thing?

What is experience of using this thing? Like that's what IT is for me because we can all take a good photo. I even have all I should have brought that I have the first iphone, right? And like the camera on IT, I love IT takes good photos.

Like, and what does good mean? Okay, there exposed well enough. You can see things well enough like the colors fine, it's kind of in focus, but the experience is so fun and like there's just yeah so like yeah, phones will get Better. But like I think everyone believes that what they have in their pocket .

is actually pretty because is my point, you're grading on a curve. We're still grading phones on a curve. Their phones like your not replacing your professional gear. You still Carry a eleven pilin cases every time you want to shoot something.

No, I Carry one pillar case and it's got a lot of digger and is very cute and we love her. How do you do? I'll love in. I don't. I don't have hands for that.

There's like a van that fallows back around every time you could shoot something.

I wish if anyone wants to dry there, is that has that and hit me up.

Okay, let's switch his little bit just before to go. I'm curious about the differences between the iphone fifteen and I get get specifically the iphone fifteen pro, which is like, yeah the camera yes, camera and the pixelate pro and we were time at this on the shock couple go that like we ort of settled into a place where those two companies and samsung, some extent to have different ideas about photos, but everybody had kind of settled into their lane.

And it's like we've gotten do a point where I think you could fairly reliably look at a auto and guess which company made the phone that is captured. You you spend a one hundred time with the pixel on the iphone or last couple of months. Is that still the case? Are they kind of in their own lane about what their photo should look like?

I think we are all coming together to the most collective. We think this photo looks good, interesting OK. I really do.

We do this fun thing. I do this fun thing. And then I see who'll take the beach when i'm doing this hot comparison's. I basically start the, here's some like video jargon for your some background on my process.

I started to edit before even start the script because like, I just take so many photos, like I really take over a thousand photos and then I put them all next each other in the timing. And I sit there and I watch a blank time line. Sometimes I put music in just for fun, and I just like watch the slide show happen.

And then I screen shot IT, and I send IT to people. And i'm like, okay, these are three different phones. Tell me which one which, and like I would say, one person always takes the day several, my boss and coworker, he's like a photo person.

He can even, he can even tell anymore. Sometimes I can even tell. Sometimes I like, oh, I forgot. Let me go look at the file names. Interesting like we are really coming to like the point of like this is what the most people think is a good photo and that's what all of the the north star for all these companies is.

So what what are the characteristic of that? I'm assuming it's a little extra urgent where we love dynamic. Oh my god, love the number one most we loved.

And yes, let me see the sky, the ground. Let's do. Yes.

yes. And the shadows, like the man lurking in the back, I want him to.

And I would think that everything you wouldn't want you to be too colorful, but you'd want you to be like three percent extra colorful. I don't know. You tell me, what do you think know?

I think the dynamic range is actually interesting because I think there's like a pencil morin. I think companies is really swang out on the dynamic range. And IT was like all the sudden and everything was not but livable, which is funny that .

like like sometimes things are dark with phones for .

a while yeah like I I see shadows and that's okay. And so I think we were now like coming back to like more of a middle ground there. I think you know White baLance is really important.

You more so there's some like focus things happening like people, people do like a little depth field. You know, people do want things to be a little lot of focus, properly exposed, but that spent good for a long time. But the big thing is the White baLance that used to be the differentiator between like google and apple.

You know, I was like the iphone was always warmer and the pixel always cooler and now we're seeing the pixel kind of like realized that I was little too cool. K income towards apple in that way. But IT does feel like the competition has always kind of been chasing apple and continues too. And I find that where their photos have been consistent throughout cameras, the, you know, pixel has changed more and .

has adapted more to that style OK. So think we were head more, yes.

because, you know, much like we don't label magazines was like what camera tooks them, like on instagram, like you don't know whatever one's phone who's ever what phone they have. And I think people want to like fit in on instagram, right? So you want the photo that looks good, but also IT doesn't look too different from everyone else is. And you know, maybe if you're an iphone newser, you want to like call out your android friends and your android friends just .

want to live in peace, right? They're them.

So we don't care that we're Green. That only affects you.

Wow, that's kind bx. We're going to come back to that another time. It's fine.

So what about the like pro experience of doing this? I was a apple matter. Want to noise about this is a pro camera.

Yeah, having used these things kind of within an inch of their life, like is IT does IT feel more pro? There's more stuff to do. But I would not say that the same thing being a pro camera.

No, I think you know obviously pro is like marketing. It's like a way to say this is the best phone, but they can't call like the iphone fifteen .

best print tases the good one. Yes, I wish they were the Better.

I've wone fifty seven. The bigger, Better. Yeah, that would be incredible. The smaller, not so good. I mean, it's good in my mind. So I mean, all of that marketing, right? And I was talking to some folks at google at the event, and I was kind of picking their brain and like pro tools and improve that.

You know, google, the pixel 7 pro didn't say this is for prose wherein the iphone fifteen pro max， they were like, this is for pro in google's kind of stay on so on IT was like, you know, if folks who are professional towards her s come to the system, they will have tools that they recognize in their professional workflow. And that's cool. That's great.

And they are like, and they honestly said to me, but we find that most pros don't like, you know, they pick up a phone because they know that it's like the easy thing and they're not trying to work with IT. And and I haven't spoken to apple about this. I don't know where they stand on IT.

The thing is they label everything pro, but then they don't give the pro tools, which is like, okay, like that. thanks. We've established that like pro aren't may be using this system for professional work.

sure. But it's just just kind of like me. And I think it's just because they want people to buy apps and pay for things.

No, I think that's right. And I do think there there's potentially more interesting stuff to come on. The third party, what from the third party camera apps in the last month is not really interesting.

And I and I want to shout out all the developers there like I did feel bad. I know I made this whole like thousand photos of the iphone fifteen pro. I went to the desert, I was a sg and I drove in sand for the first time. And I did.

I just want to like the anyway, in in that I was like, you know apple, if you want to be a program, you have to have like pro controls and I didn't really mention on chat w all of the folks who like have built pro controls for the iphone and there's many good ones that I wish I could list off free right now. And I and I can't just pull them out of my brain like that. But there's lots of folks that are building really good tools, if you're interested in that. And I think that is cool, that there is like a marketplace for those people to make what they love and .

do what they love totally. Um are right? We have to go. But before we do so, you have to tell me only one answer OK. What is the best smart t phone for taking pictures .

and video right now? Oh my god, okay. Can I tell you what IT tonight okay. Well the first iphone gorgeous um IT has like a filming quality IT makes the cutis noise.

It's really slow and she's just so cute to hold in your hands and everybody's like, oh my god, what is that? And then you get to open the camera and take a photo and everyone is just like, amazed and IT warms my whole heart is a great bar trick. I i've been doing that a lot.

It's really good answer. I allow that. I was not going to allow that when you started talking. And now I will allow that the future of polar roads is just like, first, that they just like make a comeback, is the new retrod camera that everybody successes .

and they're na sell on urban outfitters, where they are selling the ipod in urban office, is gonna a killing?

This is gonna happen now. Now you just did this, and i'm going to be so upset with you when this have no, you're gonna.

I will buy. It's the greatest experience. Get up on ebay while you can. Everybody.

right? We got to take a break back a thank you.

Hey, it's lee from the koto with new IP top, we spent a lot of time talking about some of the most important people in taking business about what they're putting resources to and why they think it's so critical for the future. That's why we're doing this special series, diving into some of the most unique ways companies are spending money today.

For instance, what does that mean to start buying and using A I at work? How much is that costing companies? What products are they buy? And most importantly, what are they doing with IT and of course, podcasts? Yes, the thing you listening to right now, well, it's increasingly being produced directly by companies like venture capital firms, investment funds and a new crop of creators who one day want to be investors themselves.

And what is actually going on with these acquisitions this year, especially you mean A I space. Why are so many big players in tech and not to acquire and instead license tech and high away co founders? The answer, IT turns out, is a lot more complicated than that seems. You'll hear all that and more this month on decoder with liberal presented by strike. You can listen to decoder whatever you get your podcast.

Or IT, we're back. Let's get to the hot line. As always, the number is eight, six, six, verge one one.

And the email is verge cast to the verge that come. We love all your questions. Call us e mail, bringing us the weirdest thing you can think of.

And we always try to answer at least one on the show every week. This week we have a question about V, R and a and xr and mixed reality and all these new things about glasses on your face. So granddaddy Robertson, who knows the space Better than anybody add, thanks for being here.

Hi, this is about a product that of the people to verge. Only you and I have used so far going to play the question, and we're going to go from there. Sound good. Sounds good. I let's do. It's from Peter.

Hi guys. This is Peter, long time listener, first time color. I love what do, but I am at a little bit of an impair.

I am a big proponent of the future and of potential for special computing. I love this idea of the apple vision pro had set. I'm excited to try that out. But I recently saw a really good review of the x real glasses, formally called n real glasses. And I think you guys were talking about them recently too.

And I can't help but wonder if this really is something that capture ninety percent of the use cases that i'm particularly that i'm going to use the apple vision pro for at one tense, the Price and much more convenient form factor, no battery. But writer, you can puppet in your pocket. I really feel like we need to think about this and this might be closer to where we're heading. Then the big, heavy, happy list pro thoughts. Thank you.

I love this question, but I want to know like write off the top what you think okay.

So are you just have to Carry? I'm assuming ing we're talking about the and real or sorry, x real areas, not the x real lights. That's the X, X areas of a new headset. And I am also going to only be able to talk about this from really a theoretical perspective. Haven't used the vision pro, have just played a bit with the new extra classes.

I think IT depends on what you see ninety percent of the use cases as being that apple has all of this sort of you'll be able to do situation things trying to promise going on that the idea is that I can sense your surroundings to some extent, that IT can pin things to your desk for your wall, or IT can give the illusion that IT has actual virtual objects in your real space. And that is the thing you will not get at all with the new x il hood set that that is purely it's like, imagine you stuck a tablet up in front of your face and the tablet was always there and the tablet was also like slightly transparent, especially in light. Those are the downsides of x rael.

The upside is that in a lot of ways, I agree with you a you have a thing that is not to apple d's ecosystem or to a bunch of export developers making things that it's really just you plug IT in, you see a screen in front face. It's incredibly convenient be that you can see everything else. Actually, you're not tasting through a video feed, which is just kind of almost inherently going to be little resolution and an inferior experience to the real world and see gather can not surprisingly comfortable even compared to the older x real glasses. And I am a tried the vision pro, but it's it's a big thing ah it's .

less comfortable, I can say with great ah so yeah, I really think .

people should be giving this a look. I'm not necessarily clear that it's a super viable product yet, and I haven't had a chance to seriously review IT, but I am similarly optimistic about that. I think actually interesting company.

I agree. And I I think your your point about IT depends what ninety percent of the use cases are, is really right.

Because IT, the thing that israel has done for me is make IT very clear that the vision prose idea of a thirty five hundred dollars vice that essentially put a virtual computer monitors in the air, and you'll sit there with your mouse and keyboard and use a headset to be a bunch of monitors that is going to a be, if not like, totally commoditized very soon, then like not worth thirty five hundred dollars. That's fundamental. What the extra glasses are, right? Like, like you said, they they are just computer monitors.

Imagine plugging any device you have into a monitor, just float in front your face. So if that's your use case, x really is pretty good. I don't get to be as good as a lot of the sutil sion prose doing, but IT does the job fairly well to me. The biggest downside of these glasses so far and really a lot of these sort of pluggin player products is just the interface.

Like holding up my phone while watching something through the extra glasses is cool because I can just like lean back and watch on a big screen, but i'm still navigating on my phone, which means i'm constantly looking down at my phone and kind of losing the thing, whether you know the vision pro and the meta stuff has native interactions and IT feels like clear in a space as opposed to this much hacker feeling thing, that is the glasses. So again, it's a much less elegant system. But if the goal is like I need more screens in front of my face while I sit in my computer, actual pretty close.

I think that also a phone is kind of the worst way to interact with IT.

That's true.

I was using IT with the steam deck. And the steam deck is basically just i'm holding your controller and I can see the screen in front of my face now.

And so it's just I did at the switch for a .

while for the same reason prety much just like using .

council yeah and in that case, it's very good. So I think in general, like we're both pretty bullish on this kind of glasses, right? I think is x real even like doing anything sort of unusual or they just sort of first in this space is you've paying attention to these like wacky manufacturers of A R glasses longer than I have is actually doing something special.

My sense is that they are just ruthlessly contextual, efficient, okay, that their first glasses were a bit more in the they have cameras and you can play sort of our games and you can pin things sort of to the floor and they completely cut up. There's no cameras in the new glasses is just a thing that sits there. IT doesn't give any illusion of interacting with space, but that also means that they can be really light.

They can be, i'm not going to say, Normal looking, but more Normal looking. And they can be comparatively really cheap. I think that they really have actually just figured out there's a thing maybe we can make people want to do with this, and we're going to deliver the best experience of that we can.

Yeah, I said I said on the show last week that I am super intrigued this race between companies like meta, which are basically saying we're going to take very stylish classes, start with essentially audio and then try to figure out how to add more screen stuff to IT.

And companies like x el, who are like we have a screen IT looks kind of silly in in comparison like the rabs meat is saying, but IT has a screen and we'll figure out how to do the rested at. And those two companies are sort of running at each other from opposite directions and it's going to be interest as who what happens. And then I think like the quest and vision pro stuff are just like all the way off and a different dimension. And I think it's not impossible that the simper stuff is going to end up being way more appealing to way more people. I would not bet on that yet, but I don't think that out of the question.

Yeah, I think pastor has just really inherent limitations. I know that there are a cases that it's very good for. There are specific things it's very good for. But as a really casual consumer device, IT is not the thing I in .

the most bullish on. Yeah, that's so four hundred dollars for extra glasses again, we we've only use them a very little bit like strikes me a lot to spend there. There are a little bit of A A novelty. But compared to, you know whatever thirty five hundred dollars the vision pro next year, which is an even shipping yet, I guess it's a good deal. It's more than ten percent is fun for ten percent of the Price, I guess I don't know.

Yes, I think that if you think what you need is a really versatile, albeit in perfect screen, that goes pretty much anywhere with you and that has a level of privacy, if you're, I don't know, somewhere, you don't want people to see what you're doing and that you can just really, as far as I can tell, plug into most things you own pretty easily. IT seems like a good, really adored thing .

at my main use case so far, has been sitting here in this chair at my desk with feed up on my desk, leaving back head sort of slightly upwards with the glasses on, playing video games with the controller in my hand. And like you said, it's an excEllent set up. Screens are amazing. Me, there is the switches.

IT does the job. yeah. My bigger problem so far is really just that you have to angle them precisely to not get some really heavy blur at the bottom of the screen a lot of time.

moving the nose pads around to get them just so. And I eventually can get them there. But IT is IT is a very work curate.

Yeah, it's way Better than the original, like the lights, but it's still, I think that they can start back to them.

Yeah, that's there. Alright, eddy, think he was always .

appreciated. IT.

right? That's if for the verge cast today. Thanks to everybody was on the show. And thank you, as always for listening. There's lots more on everything we talked about from back s thousand photos series to all of the apple coverage on the but read the version I P.

As always, if you have thoughts, questions, feelings or other costumes you wish, tim cook warn you can always email us adverse cost to the verge t com, or keep calling the hot line IT exceed verge one one. All your thoughts, questions, ideas, everything we love all and we do, like I said, one hot line question every week, so keep in common. This show is produced by Andrew marino and liam James.

Verge cast is verge production and part of the ox media podcast network. Me I alex S, I will be back on friday to talk inevitably more about apple plus, sandbank and free google. And all the other stuff happened in attack. See them rock and roll.

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