Microsoft is in its AI PC era
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Welcome to the verge cast the flagship podcasts of ARM based chipsets. I'm a friend, David piers, and I am currently in the woods in the middle of nowhere in Virginia at an airbnb. So the last seven days have been my wife's birthday, mother's day and our wedding anniversary, all in the course of a week.

If you get to choose in your life to do all those things at once or spread them out through the year, I highly recommend spreading them out through the year. But this is what we have. So every year, we try to like combine all these celebrations and just go find a place in the woods with bad internet and no secon activity and just relax for a couple of days.

I cannot recommend enough everyone's in a while just finding somewhere where you can't be online, whether you want to or not, and just leaning into IT for a couple days. It's the best. But i'm in the woods, but the verge cast goes on.

We have an awesome show through the day. We actually have a lot to get to. IT is like the new zest time in recent memory, and there's a lot of fun stuff to talk about today on the show.

We're going talk about two things. We're going to talk about the surface event that just happened where microsoft kind of unveiled both its new devices but also what seems to be an entirely new generation of laptops and windows pcs. There's a lot going on.

There are some big huge promises. We're going to talk about all of IT. We're also gna talk about OpenAI and know we've been talking about the OpenAI event from last week and google, german I and this whole A I space that were in right now a lot over the last couple of weeks.

But I can't stop thinking about IT, especially what OpenAI believes is the future and how we're gona talk to computers going forward. Lots to get you on that front. We're going to talk to a ki robson or knew A I reporter about all that. We also have a question about ipads on the first recast hot line because we also can't stop talking about ipad lots to do in this episode. All that is coming up in just a second, but I just heard the hot tub motor go off, which means it's hard enough, which means the touch of time this is the verge cast.

We'll seen the sec.

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Welcome back. We've been hearing for the last couple of months that a whole new generation of pcs was about to come out. Com had this new lineup of chips called the snapdragon x that were supposedly drastically ally, more powerful and more efficient.

And what actually bring the windows PC world up to par with the recent max that run on apple's own silicon? That's a big win on its own, obviously, but also the combination of power and efficiency changes more than you might think. Not only do things get Better and longer lasting, which is a huge win, but you can also do different kinds of device design.

When you can count on all day Better life. You can build them with five g and other connectivity because people will actually take them away from the charger. Windows tablets would suddenly make a lot more sense for a lot of people.

So would more portable windows gaming devices IT all sounds awesome. IT. Also, I should say, is the thing we have been promised many, many times.

Qualcomm has been claiming ing. The next one was the one for years. Everything was going to be the year of windows on ARM skeptical eval of IT.

Well, yesterday that new generation of pcs showed up. Microsoft had a big event to launch the new services. Lots of other companies announced snap dragon devices of their own. Our own time warn is that the event in seattle to get you up in all of IT.

hi tom. hello.

Has life in seattle good.

is Sunny, is not raining, so I can't complain.

I did appreciate that the weather came up like three times at the beginning of the event this morning. They were very happy that I was a Sunny day in seattle. Yeah.

yeah. I mean, the lost they put all in the ten today that lost on I did that he was like mud slides all the ten. So i'm glad that's not happened.

Oh boy, yeah. So tell me a little bit about this event. This was an event we've known as coming for a while. It's the day before microsoft build, but it's not microsoft build. I give me the vibes of the events a bit.

Yeah so obviously, we kind of knew they ve been working on this. So of the armed power pace like the windows, which is much also promised a bunch on on so of windows and ARM previously.

But IT does feel like it's slightly different this time, mainly because these devices are not more performance and battery life, that's all stuff, but also because all the areas actually doing their own variants of what they are called in these copilot plus PC, and they're actually like the top tier variants of their windows laptops. So it's not like they're just shoving these chips into some mid range laptops and just call in IT that they're like all in on these copilot plus pcs. So the event kind of run that down.

Why the way that matters? The performance faces that took care also thinks that this is kind of like the moment to sort of beat them out care, which is kind of interesting. And then some of the A I sort of features that these these new photos enable.

There's a lot of confidence coming out of microsoft in this event like I feel like Normally i'm used to the pano pene era where he would come out and sort of tell you have lovely a devices and try to convince you of how wonderful IT is and how much the team care about IT. And this felt like a very different microsoft they just came out and where, like, we did IT folks like here's the stuff, check IT out, let's go. Was that would have felt like in the room.

yeah, definite felt a little bit different than some because the previous surface event that they had last year, like after we knew panels believe in and that felt like that's right, was like a kind to surface IT felt like that that like surface was dying or something IT IT was a radio event. This one IT just feels like the surfaces like that. The platform like essentially the show piece for this platform for these new advances on winter on ARM and that kind of they didn't make surface like the most important thing, but IT wasn't the least important thing. IT was kind of know just just there to sort back up that they are serious about this transition time.

Talking me about the copilot plus PC is thinking because you and I have been on this show for the last couple of months, I would say relatively consistently making fun of the idea of an a ipc, which just generally means nothing. But this time microsoft came out in and much more clearly tried to define what a copilot plus PC is and what makes a different and what makes us special and why this kind of deserves its own category of PC is like what what makes a copilot lus PC? A copilot plus PC?

Yeah, exactly like they previously had these A I pcs that were kind of like they were trying to sell IT on this A I vision or windows. But they didn't quite have the performance essentially inside for them to actually enable these AI features that apart these copilot plus p. So essentially what they are, I think the way might also to find them is that the M P U, the new or processing unit that is a new chip or I think is that necessarily new? But is new tools or of windows a new chip that will basically accelerate these ii tasks?

So they've got this new recall feature, which essentially say you're working on your laptop and like you saw an elephant two weeks ago and like, where did I see that dam elephant was IT in a tablet, was IT in an email like, I assure I saw IT and then you can just type an elephant and I would be like, OK, I saw this in your email and he doesn't need to like, see the words that you ve typed play elephant IT will litter understand that that is an elephant so it's quite good for for recalling like those memories for me everyday use of of windows very similar to a mac O S up called rewind, which does a city thing but this is a built in its leveraging in the actual m is not hit in the CPU or gp it's do this you can just do these was to watching videos or processing I don't know, like previa o all of that and is not going to hit that performance. There's also like live captions and they showed like translation there, which was pretty cool but you can't like save that stuff so say you wanted to watch or listen or watch to pocus in japanese. You could let you just slow IT up and you would just do that light, light .

translation fees. So I have to say I thought was really cool. And actually in after a really good job of not only explaining why you want lots of power on your computer, but also showing the kinds of features that you can do on your device when you have this stuff.

Like the transition is a good example where you were able to have like multiple languages being translated to each other in multiple, in real time on a video call, which is the kind of thing you genuinely only can do on device for ending all that, the cloud just falls apart. But and with the with the life captions in some the imaging stuff they didn't a really good job of saying, like this is actually what you need all of that power locally in order to do. And I feel like for me recall, which is, I think, if I remember correctly, all private, all on device, not applied anywhere, not even leaving your computer. Like really, really smart way to show this is what you can do when you have this thing on your computer. Like I ve found that very compelling.

And I think recall was probably is there sort of flagship feature for A I stuff, but they did also show which just kind of more ford looking and wasn't like a complete demo experience, but they showed some of the stuff where you could have like this copilot experience in a game, like an exports game on windows. So there was like a really cool demo. And I don't know this.

This came through very well on the live log, so definitely check out over. But IT was essentially someone was playing minecraft, and then the copilot was like teaching the person how to craft in the game, because I could actually see, or to see what what you were saying. So IT IT knew, and that was like, that was pretty cool, and he was like a zombie in minecraft IT.

And they like, oh no, there's a zombie. Better run away. Like IT was like, literally going them around the game as if he was like their friends sitting beside them. So that was like a really good hint at where this could go when you got this sort on device A I models running in the background and can actually see everything you're doing. Now that that party.

all that is really cool. On the recall one we we talked when you were reporting on this, I think he was called A I explore, was the code name that you had found out about is right?

Yes.

that's right. We were debating whether IT was gna seem very cool or very creepy. Having seen the thing in action, where do you land cool or creepy?

I think it's in the middle, right? definitely. Because IT is kind of creepy, that they are taking basically snaps of everything you do.

New P. C. They say this will see a way to manage that you can like to be at or on particular websites and stuff. But there is still the fact that running all times in the background and capturing everything you do.

But then again, so is like your way, browsing history, and that's always captured in your browser, not quite to the degree of like seeing IT say so I think there is differently A A to IT. But I I wonder if people will sort see part step for for the the actual functionality, the enables. And it's all local.

I am speaking to one of their security VP shortly sort and how they are going to protect against malicious activity because you can imagine someone getting in through some sort of floor and then I know using these A I models to cause chaos on your PC and search for this potential there. So i'm curious how live that actually secured IT beyond sovan e promises that they had on on stage. But yeah, I think it's definite between. I think it's going be a people that will disable this on the hardware that they buy, but they not think the things that enables particular and that lets go of minecraft demo in the future of I think it's going to be worth that trade off right as soon as I can keep IT secure.

Yeah, I mean, the demos like that where IT IT can collaborate with you as you're using your computers, like that, the stuff that both microsoft and others show these bits and pieces of that are Alice like, oh, I get IT now. Like, that's the kind of stuff I actually want. A I for not you know write me business emails but like help me do the things i'm trying to do Better and in a sort of automated proactive way like that.

That's pretty ool mean being assistive and sort of like helping you on your way the definitely the way that I prefer to see I go the triangle replace you. So .

like the of this. So the two big new ones for microsoft, the surface laptop and the surface pro, no numbers, which really turns me off where just it's just no. Are there .

numbers this sneaky numbers. So the surface process called the surface pro eleven foundation, which is very microsoft, as you can imagine.

believe ico soft.

They kind of just referring to as a surface pro right? Or the copilot plus surface pro, if you wanted get even more mysql. But yeah that essentially there are no numbers.

Okay, you've seen them both. I would say my take away just from reading the live blog and and seeing the specs self is basically similar dish footprints like I think the surface prone particularly exactly the same sizes before and the whole the pitches like gigg antic, massive internal accurate, that kind of changes everything that reasonable .

yeah I mean on the surface pro um they gotten you OLED display model, which is which is nice that's good good OLED on the is not stand them like the ipad pro um I think that those experience actually is so you got the new display option there. But yeah overall, the actual device looks very similar. But they have done one really cool thing that I like is the type cover.

Now you know, from reviewer's for years, the whole liability argument, the surface pose raged for like a decade now. yes. And they've actually what theyve done is they've reinforced IT. So is actually I couldn't really get its bounce and see when I using another .

desk .

really yeah you know how you usually flexes and you get that weird bounce is really annoying when you .

try to write like a along the things you are typing fast.

the whole thing that yeah like doesn't that a very slight fix but like it's not raining as bad when I tried to my lap as well, same was the same. And it's because they basically really for the base of the the surface keyboard, um they put a batch in IT now. So so the actual trap pet is a little bit larger and IT has had to feedback and IT has a blue tube chip inside this.

So you pull IT away from the display and you can actually use IT. So it's not like just a dumb keyboard you when you put IT off anymore. So some pretty cool keyboard upgrades and you can also use the old keyboards if you if you want to yeah and that that and the only display i'd say are the biggest thing that you notice on the outside is obvious.

The inside is they are actually quite compound now is windows ARM, the snapdragon exile, the plus in surface pro dependent, which model you go for and playing around with IT for like a good you know ten twenty minutes IT IT doesn't feel like a regular windows laptop right um especially when everything is running native on there. We really need to review these to let check out these. These are big claims that micros making. But yeah IT feels like super slick, a fast and speed as you would kind of expect you I don't know you think that this was an ARM laptop.

but way that's really exciting. I mean, and I think that sounds, as you say, that almost like faint praise, but I just want to make it's really not faint praise. Give what we've seen from windows on ARM in the past lake. You could tell on the last generation surface pro, whether you are using the intel model or the quality on model immediately, immediately you could tell the difference. And so just the fact that you pick IT up and I just feels like a windows laptop is already an enormous win.

Yeah exactly. Does IT I couldn't get IT to like really lag. You know I know I wasn't really pushing IT. We will like I say, think praise because we have to check this out, memory review IT.

But for for everything I can see, IT does look like they might have done at this time, but he really is going to come down to the APP compatibility. And they've ve made some big promises about emilius. I think just a pure fact that these chips are a lot Better.

They sort of bof falling their way through this in in many ways, but they're not doing in a way that's gonna kill the battery fever, which is interesting. The making big claims about that is sixteen hours Brown the web plus hours if you're watching local video. So if that actually holds up or anywhere close to IT, then yeah, that's going to be very competitive. Competitive or the macbook are was usually bit when marco says they have like a ten hour batlike PC, it's usually five hours.

you know what? And you got to see if I remember quickly, like you actually got to see them run these demos next to a macbook air, right? I find microsoft s whole fascination right now with the macbook error in the end, three chip in particular, really fascinating. Just the fact that they put you in a room and tested the macbook air next to the new services is just wild to me. Yeah.

I spent an hour watching a tornea demos that's ranging from the city bench geek bench know like the sort of the basic PC benchMarks, all the work like they made scripts for, like doing filters, which are they showed some of those on stage and in some A I S. And yeah, i'd say out of that probably at least every five minutes the mro c was I, I, I was like, is, why is microsoft .

so obsess with the map care?

I think because they know that they fall in behind that like premium set of devices over the past few years, since since apple and to the end one they really been behind and intel hasn't like got them there on battery life performs to sort of match that, that kind of great offering for apple so that there I think their confidence is like, yeah, we're finally here, know we can be competitive or if not Better, and we can do with all these A I or features on tops.

There you go. Apple, no, we're here. Yeah a definitely new level of confidence.

Yeah that makes sense. And speaking of that, actually I was very confused by the fact that microsoft, at the beginning of the event, set a bunch about how all the OEM, all the chip makers everybodys in that this copilot plus pcs thing is is like an industry wide move, and then spent the whole rest of the hour talking about quon power devices. What what is what do you make of that?

Yeah, they kind of did this thing like that was like all AMD and and going to have these copilot plus PC you soon. But but not right now. So we've been partner with coal to do this.

I think they are I think they're done playing a little bit their own transition there because other city want is to be a part of focus. That's the whole idea of windows. But they had they've made such a big effort even in all those demos like there was no mention of intel N M D.

You know, that was all about your device is all about the transition time, like about how they ve, we compiled the kernel. And on all this is work in the background so that they are confident the ARM is finally gonna be you know competitive with the into based models that we have of surface devices right now. So I think they kind of have to throw bone to internally and had to have them included over see in this event.

And that's not terrible, surprising. Their stage presence was was very little compared to all the armed talk that they had on stage. That was all all of those AI experiences let up by a combination of these new chips.

So it's going to be interesting to see when intil and amy can actually have an answer with the mp as performance because they're already like they're talking these chips of forty five tops. Where's the intel ones are like less than ten right now. So by the time intel matches will call on and jump up ahead like this can be interesting to see whether road map is of hands out.

I didn't enjoy this. Wasn't the spec heaviest the event ever, which I thought was really the same? This meant a lot of time doing like optimus and a lot less time talking about the details of how these chips work in all that up.

But they did keep talking about forty five trillion Operations per second over and over and over. That was like the one spec they said, like ten times, very like they are like arch is so fast. And where we're going to remind you eleven times during this event, how fast are ships are because they're so proud of their fast ships.

And depending on how they can and we have to see, I think IT will be faster AI Operations in the end, four percent. So it's gonna interesting when that romp shakes out because obvious ly com, i've had armed chips for years and theyve never been quite this performance and and they acquired new via. And I think that is the key to why these chips are different. And I mean, that's that's the key because those new via chips were were built by x apple engineers says almost like great you, the building, the windows to look. So I think I think that is the key to why this all feels a little bit different, that the chips are actually performing like you would expect to.

So does all that add up to this being the moment microsoft seems to want you to be like the sense I got reading your reporting and from talking you about this last couple months that this is kind of a day microsoft has had circled on the calendar for two years as like, ah this is the beginning of the new era of windows. We have the power. We have the AI stuff.

Copilot is starting to get there like there. Along with this, there were, I think, every OEM on planet earth announced a bunch of copilot lus pcs like this. This was clearly designed to be sort of the beginning of an era of windows pcs. You think IT got what I was trying to do? Yeah.

I think so. I think I was surprised by some of the A I features that they showed on stage. I think those those look really promising. So I wasn't expecting as much of the A I features as as they showed.

And just coming to campus this morning, it's like they literally have like signage everywhere is like the new AI of era has his hair soring. So they will see like very confident and that. What they showed just just playing around the devices IT does feel like something different here.

Um like this is a definitely different from eighteen push and finally different from the surface R T push. So yeah I mean, I want to next month and give them a good or spin just to see if this is actually you, this can replace my laptop and see if they can really know that battle life. Then, yeah, I don't know. I don't know what intel I name. Gna do know.

Yeah, I feel like you and I earn an exactly the same headspace, which is like I desperately want this to be. Everything that they said that would be because because IT would be so much fun if the whole windows ecosystem just kind of leveled up. But also, we've been burned on this specific promise several times in the past.

It's like if I sound cautious is because of those two burn moments in the past.

exactly. But he does. I think if it's if it's ever gonna happen, IT feels like IT might happen right now.

Yeah I think if if he doesn't happen right now, then I mean, they grown IT, right? Everything that they've showed in all to be all these big promises, they will be pretty crazy if they doesn't live up to that. You know if the performance isn't there, these AI features don't work properly or like the battery life just sucks, they might just blown IT, right? So they kind of have to have done at this time. I was a lot on the line given the way that we've been talking and confidence put into this .

totally yeah I A realized going in that there were a bunch of people who bought ipad pro last week who were looking at the surface pro this week being like, oh, we want a surface pro and microsoft doing that.

They've done IT. They're back. That's true. Yeah it's not thin in and as sexy hardware as the apple pro, let's say.

But yeah, I mean, but IT runs on my apps time. IT runs your apps. You can actually use IT. So when you place some video and you tap a notification is not onna kill that video in the background like is an actual O S.

So yeah, one hundred percent right. Time you ve got meanings to get to you. Thank you for for jump in on and doing this. I appreciate IT. Yes, good luck with the rest yourself.

right? right? Thank you.

Alright, we got to take a break, but actually broke up before we do. You can subscribe now to tom's new newsletter called note pad about all things microsoft. I'll put a link in the show is its brand new and it's already fantastic. Are IT quick break? Then we're onna talk OpenAI who are in back.

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Right back, we talked a bit on last week show about the open, a event from last monday in which the company announced GPT four o and a super personable, maybe even flying voice, a system. Hey, touching. P. T. Hi, mark. How are you?

Oh, mark.

i'm doing great. Thanks for king. How about you? So i'm stay if you hear that clip and you're like, oh, weird.

That sounds like john in her. Well, so did everybody else. I mean that listen to this from her.

Okay, let's start with your emails. You have several thousand emails regarding L A. Weekly, but IT looks like you haven't worked there in many years. And now this clip from the .

opening event, ah, I see IT. Now you go down three x plus one equals four.

Yes, let's. So what's the I could do this forever because the similarities are deeply uncanny. But here's just one more. This is from the GPT four o demo when one of the researchers wrote, I hurt ChatGPT on a piece paper and then held up his phone camera so I could see IT. Of course, i'd love to see what you wrote.

Show IT to me whenever you're ready OK.

So this is what I rode down. What do you see?

I see. I love ChatGPT. That's so sweet of you. And now here's a .

moment from her and beautiful. Thank you. See at all. I'm kissing your head, sid.

Note, by the way, her is such a good movie. If you haven't seen IT or haven't seen IT in a while, do IT. It's even Better than I remembered. And given everything that has happened with A I over the last couple of years, IT is different now anyway, other than the fact that the actual product that exists in the world doesn't work quite as well and sounds a little more robotic. The one in the vie, I mean, the vibes here are very similar, both in the product in general and in the voice specifically to the point where actually over the weekend, OpenAI pulled the voice that you're hearing here, which was named sky, from the product altogether, OpenAI said IT wasn't trying to mimic collet john in her wh.

I am very heard to believe for reasons will get into but then on monday night, just before this episode went out, scolese of hanson actually gave a statement saying that last september OpenAI had contacted her about being the voice of GPT for o and as many as two days is before, like two days before the event in which they revealed GPT for a with this new voice, with this new flood, they were still contacting her, trying to get her to reconsider and do the voice. It's all very strange. And this is the kind of thing we just don't have a lot of history of dealing with.

There's just not a lot of precedent for this kind of story. And in general, there are a lot of questions here about what we learned from that GPT four o demo and what open a eyes is really up to here and where we're headed in the next few years of A I and stock through all of that stuff and more. I grab ed Kelly robson, the virtuous new senior AI reporter.

Colliver is welcome to the verge cast. Thank you for having you. This is what day nine for you at the verge as we're recording .

this precisely yes.

and you've already been in like four hundred and sixty five news cycles.

That is one hundred percent cracks, maybe one more today. But yes.

exactly has has been so far. How is how are your first as a the ch IT .

is so fantastic. It's pure chaos. And I think a lot of people looking or like, why are you doing all this? Are they killing you? No, it's because it's so fun and I can't stop agreed to write stuff. So it's been great.

Yeah, you fit in very well in that respect. Mostly I want to talk about OpenAI. Yeah there's like going on.

But I think to me like what's been interesting as there's been a ton of news the last few weeks and the only thing I can think about is that OpenAI demo oh, my g twenty seven minutes of just like super awkward OpenAI interactions and I kids are thinking you about IT, I don't know, so i'm mostly just screws. You've been covering OpenAI e for a long time. You've been thinking about this company and thinking about A I for a while.

You a singer, A, I, what did you make of that event? There were all these rumors leading up to this about what opening I was going to do. They did IT ahead of google.

I, O, I have to assume deliberately, there were lots of rumors. None of those rumors turned out to be true. This was like this other thing, like what where was your head during that event?

What are you thinking about? Well, I was really excited for IT to be this huge, huge thing. They built IT up so much.

So, you know, the rumors were it's going to be a search engine that rivals perplexity in google. It's going to be GPT5。 So when we got GPT for, oh, it's cool.

IT is how natural this is. It's very simple. Y, but I I did my first tiktok for the verge and my takeaway was, this is so flute, I do.

We need, yeah, I don't think so. Just like, you know, not to throw open completely under the bus. I said the same about X, A, I grow.

Like, do we need a sarcastic narky? I am not sure. Let's let's get some other advancements first before IT starts being mean and fury.

Some people the tiktok comments did not agree. These genes were like, do not take away my A I girlfriend, please. The announcement IT was interesting is on a hugely forward. I think they definite wanted to get in front of I O. I did talk to the CT memoranda and a very short briefing after the launch and I asked, like he, why today and she's like you're asking because of I O and I might well, of course and SHE said, you know, we didn't even know I O was happening.

My, okay, yeah, cool. That I mean, just a lie. That's like.

not yeah like, okay, we're not taking a bit right, moving on. But yeah, so IT was interesting. Obviously I winter I O and I thought, you know, this stuff is really cool.

IT was a two hour long key note. I was there in person and pretty brutal. But yeah, GPT for o, it's cool, has a long way to go.

IT kind of feels like the rumors in the A I. Reporting world is that they had something bigger that wasn't ready in time. So like he was for o microsoft build is coming up at the end of this month. So i'm kind of expecting something bigger for that. Yeah is an interesting demo flat talk .

to me about the flood thing because I I confess this is the thing I can't are thinking about, right? Like you pointed out in the middle IT like this is just her. And I think sam altman even said, like reference her before. Mm, morality was like, no, we're not doing a her thing, which is like, again, obviously not true. They're obviously doing a hard thing.

I am so torn on this and i'm curious how do you are thinking about IT? On the one hand, I totally understand why IT makes sense for these things to like, be fun to talk to, right? And I don't know flute is the correct version of fun to talk to, but again, I think this this pushed towards like if you're gna spend all your time interacting with this thing, IT should be enjoy well to interact with, and not just some like cold metal robot that you talk to.

I totally understand that. I also think that is like a mess yeah and just is for opening I M for everybody else will cause as many problems as IT solves maybe more and is going to make all of this really weird before the technology is nearly good enough to actually have any of this work like her is a an example because like SHE doesn't get basic facts wrong all the time in her. Like importantly, it's very good technology.

It's not just like ferdy scarlet johanson, but very dumb like that's not that's not what they're doing. And I don't know I just cannot wrap my head around whether this like eleven year old movie about a voice assistant is the correct place for us to be going. Even though I kind of understand why we're going that way.

I don't know. And I feel like everybody is a very visceral reactions to IT. So curious what what yours has spent.

You know, a lot of tech reporters have said, like, please, for love of god, can these tech executives finished the movies? Like, see how IT ends? Yeah no, not convinced we need forty A I before we have accurate A I and something I noticed in google I O is that when they were demming their similar assistance, IT was on video, IT was not live and verses OpenAI demo was live. So you ve got to see all the club. And if the listeners have seen me break the AI product.

put IT in the shots, it's very good. If you haven't seen IT.

it's very good. I was sitting in the press launch and they came back and like me, I broke IT choice, which is what I expected. Go yeah yes, exactly. So um yeah.

4AI as attacker porter IT just makes me like， okay, can we can we do Better than this? I don't want to completely drag them because IT is cool that like getting like a working theory. I was just thinking before we started this episode when I use siri almost exclusively as a timer because um that does not work for anything else.

I do laundry and it's fifteen minutes every time. And and IT always thinks fifteen minutes, no matter how hard I try, let's how mostly useless that is. So I have to say, fifty five. Yeah, yeah. So 4AI not super useful， feels purpose for obviously mirror said, you know not the case um he said someone else in the audience asked me that I don't know I don't know where they're getting that from. Its just sounds so natural and like and then meanwhile.

altman is like her yeah he just tweet the word .

heard and yes he did ah so and he said, um i've been I think was a dream force or something at a conference and he said her was his favorite movie all take reporters like noted so yeah I think they're trying to inch towards that reality. I don't know. I feel a bunch of different ways about IT. What were you thinking when you .

I thought IT was really impressive and I I just keep coming back to like the immediate reaction everybody had to ChatGPT, which is like I can't believe it's this good, which is yes, both the compliment and an insult, right?

Like it's not very good but IT is genuinely impressive that IT is as good as IT is yeah I feel like I i've spent a lot of time reporting on A I in the last year and I have trying to constantly calibrate that, that is impressive. That is as good as IT is and it's also not very good like both of those things are true and it's so hard. Hold both of idea, both of those ideas in your head at the same time.

And this to me was like that too like I actually went back and watched it's like a twenty six minute video, everybody to shout IT it's weird and awkward and delightful, but it's actually like IT screws up a lot like a lot in the demo. And again, that's like, it's fine. This is new early technology.

They are having fun. This is not. They didn't promise that I was perfect. They just sort showed work. But IT screw up a lot.

And nobody talked about IT, right? Everybody came to the end of that thing. And all over the internet, the immediate reaction was basically like OpenAI just destroyed all of the AI competitors forever. IT is now lesson bounds ahead of everybody else. This is the only thing that there is forever and ever. And I just don't think that's true, like it's cool and it's a good demo and the fact that IT feels at all like a person and does convincing sounding like ums and laughs and yes ah what was that he should the like I I heart GPT for o and I was like all that sweet yeah that is both. Impressive and nothing exactly exactly.

I think a really good example of that too. It's like an open a eye effect is with sora. People like this is just put all of these texts, video AI companies out of and people like to say they launched IT, but you neither of us can use IT not it's still in demo mode so people like wow, openly I destroy everyone is you know this technology is not even out yet.

And clearly IT has a long way to go when you see IT breaking and demos. So yes, it's very hard to hold both of those at the same time. And day night at the verge, i'm still figuring how to baLance that.

It's tough. I know. I think the sorry thing is actually interact example OpenAI was perceived to have this big lead right, like IT kicked off a lot of the suffer chat.

P. T. IT has been the company we have talked about the most as we talk about A I. But now, like you said, we're in developer conference season.

Google just announced I would take in a significantly more polished and less interesting way, a lot of the same stuff that OpenAI and ChatGPT been doing for a while. Microsoft today, as you're hearing this, is presumable going to launch some of the same stuff potentially with its own technology. Apple is likely to do some of the same stuff potentially with OpenAI.

Anthropic is out are doing that. There's just a million competitors now. So I feel like one thing i've been thinking about curious how you're thinking about this as you like, try to sort of map out this space in your mind, like where is OpenAI in the A. I.

World right now? Is IT still winning the race? Does the feel .

like in the hype perhaps?

fair. Yeah.

they they get a lot of hype, rightly so. They do deliver a lot of mind bending side by kind of stuff. And that's part of why I joined the speak. Well, you know, I love reading size I books. This is all very weird and fun.

I was speaking to someone at a major A I company who said that essentially everyones this year, you just can see them leap frog over each other as they go towards the same thing, you know um they're sort of training models in the same way. They're all trying to deliver the same products. So it's hard to say like tomorrow things can change this.

This beat this technology moves so fast. I felt this way when sora came out because I had just interviewed the CEO runway for a peace. What's runway? Runway is, uh, text to video start up, A I generative start up.

And they helped create everything everywhere all at once. So some of the A I tech was used in that. So they're very cool company.

And I thought when I saw their demo, this is safe. I and cal, um but then sore I came out and I was like, oh my god, this is crazy. And I sent IT to the runway. C, E, O. And he was like, welcome to our world.

Like things change so quickly every day um so who how is AI in the race? Like where are they in the in the race? They're still leads s and bounds ahead of maybe you know someone like amazon. But things can change uh any point uh and I think we can see that a lot this year.

Yeah, I do I have come to think that, that is why it's so chaotic because because there is the sense that this is like a land grab moment and it's all happening so fast that you actually still kind of can catch up like I I remember a year ago hearing stories from people that we're like, oh, only a few companies can be able to use training. The models are so expensive and so hard at work. And I think there's some truth to that. But also, there is so much open space in this market right now and there's so much money in IT that IT feels like were probably at least a couple of years away from any of this feeling at all settled. And so if you're a company that is like we want to find a place to make a lot of money very quickly and we kind of think we can win because no one really has yet yeah, this is probably the place to do IT for Better and for worse.

definitely, I agree.

So you mentioned all of these companies sort of working towards the same thing like that the north star is coming into you. What do you feel like that thing is that everybody is is .

pointed towards? You know, as an add verge cast a fan in listener, i've been hearing you talk about hardware in your ears. And I think I was meta.

A scoop came out from the information about meta doing like, sorry, I I, yes, I thought I was at a south by party. And we are going around asking questions about technology. And something I said that way I had of its time is hardware like this, A I hardware, which turned out to be true.

That was a couple months before we saw the r one in the humane pen, is something that was really shocking to me. As I join the beat is how much these AI companies are investing in robotics and bringing this AI until like a physical plane because I thought that that way off not going to be there anytime soon. But they're seemingly investing quite hard into like you have the raby's meta, the metal rabb's IT.

Looks like sam altman is doing something with love, from which is john y i've started up. So whereas headed, I think we're going to see more of those conversational AI assistance. We have what we saw, google.

I O. I would kind of love this world where a is doing everything for me because I have too many emails and too many notifications. But i'm also a pretty n on how they're using my data. Yeah obviously um but yes, so I think we're going to see more advances in in hardware.

I'm so surprised to hear you say you think hardware like IT is music to my gadget of years. But like i've been wondering at this moment after humane failed so badly and rabbit failed so badly and like those companies aren't dead and this stuff moves faster like that, my rabbit are one updates like every other day at this point, and it's ridiculous. But that one particular version of that kind of thing is just clearly not gona work right now.

I think I was very telling to me that OpenAI deo, they're just sitting there are talking into a phone yeah and I I saw bunch people pointing that out that like this is actually the way that we do this is we sit here and I hold my phone in my hand. I talk to IT, and that is the interface for A I that we are doing right now. And I have a lot of theories about why that's not the case forever. But I did kind of wonder like we are we going to put off the stream for five years in order to let some of that stuff get Better and then will worry about the hardware because phones are, and i'll get us where we need to go. But I have to say, I find it's very exciting to me that these companies are still buying into the idea that hardware is part of the equation, if maybe not the whole thing, at least not for now.

See, this is where you you know a lot about this, but I was surprised, obviously, that they are doing anything in hardware that they still think that this is the case because the humane pen in r one, as nifty as they seem to be, I kind of think they're just destined to be injuries collecting dust and not really the next big thing.

But i'm wondering if you have any ten for your health theory about IT being an iphone on stage because I thought, you know, there is for the listener, there's reports that OpenAI and apple going to do the steel where ChatGPT is integrated into the iphone, which everyone's like. H my god, once again, theory might work. That could be great.

I do see the future. Just I mean, who doesn't want to just Carry their iphone instead of multiple devices like you've mentioned when I say hardware are just as you've said on the verge, cast headphones, glasses. I think you said you're not in to the glasses idea. I wear glasses, so seems perfect to me.

I think if you wear glasses, IT is like a perfect obvious place to go for me. Like I have the, I have the metal rabbin glasses. And my problem is, I don't know how long IT takes.

This is just going to be David complaints about wearing glasses for my problem is, how long does IT take to wear glasses before you stop noticing that you were in glasses? Because I have these they have like they're clear lenses, they're transitions, they're actually really useful. I like having a mono day, but I never stopped noticing that I wear in glasses and he draws me kind of nuts. And part of that is because they're heavy. But part of that, I think, is also just like it's going to be hard to convince people who don't wear glasses to wear glasses but maybe I just to wear you like do I just need to put these on for three days?

I get well, it's taking me about twenty years of, to be fair um so I don't even notice them on my face. But what the answer to that is if meta makes this year but push, I don't know if you read the article, but they're still working out. Some of the kinks reportedly .

was earbuds with cameras, which is just the wild dest idea.

But if you like, they're found out that if you have long hair, the cameras are going to be covered because obviously, and one of my favorite parts is that they're figuring out how to stop IT from being too hot, which is, I think, something that was experience with the the humane pen is that people were like, this is getting really hot. So you know, catching fire in your years doesn't sound like a great product. I hope they worked that out, especially for you since you can't work. Glasses.

yeah, i'm bullishness on the idea. Headphones being the next thing. But again, it's partly just as a as a can do IT to your phone, which I think works fine. I want to go back to your point about the iphone because one of the things that OpenAI, I think this is the same ult men who said IT that there is a new ChatGPT APP for the mac.

And there were a lot of people, who I would say reasonably ask, where's the windows APP, microsoft stones? An enormous percentage of your company, you have been partner with them for forever, like what they help. And I think IT was sam, right, who just said sort of off handedly like, oh, mac is just where our users are and then there's an iphone on stage and it's like. How many conspiracy theory should I read into those two facts?

You tell me, you know, okay, my tin foil hat is that there's beef. I ve been told that is not necessarily true, not by anyone, like just from coworkers, from tom. Tom was like, I have opinions about this but um I just think that there's beef I I was covering open eye during the the ouster, the melt down and i'm just imaging satire during his thanksgiving week like damn like why do I have to deal with this? He's on teva.

He's on like cnbc. So I think what we're we're seeing with inflection then bringing in inflection, IT seems like there's sort of this potential apple deal. IT feels like there's this decoupling because both are realizing that theyve relied so much on the other and that it's like a codependent relationship to like maybe we should take some time apart is where I see this going, especially with the iphone on stage, the mac APP if feels like there's a lot of signs, but that's just my like a ten foil hat for now.

I do think IT is generally true that companies do that kind of stuff on purpose. I think is is the thing that I have learned over the years is you wanted just think oh, they just like up their phone and did IT. It's like, no, even the stuff that looks like it's not thought through and rehearsed is usually pretty thought through and rehearsed and is not an accident.

And exactly, there was a conversation about what phone they would use for that demo. I'm very confident about that fact. And I think, I mean, to your point, I like part of the reason I find this space so faster right now.

IT feels like that uncoupling you're talking about is literally happening like right now in real time at insane speeds like yes, between google I O and wwdc, which is essentially what like four weeks we are going to potentially like completely up. And the economics of the I industry, like insane. If you think about what the google search deal has done for apple and all the regulatory is stuff that, that is causing the amount of money that changes hands.

And like if you put something like that into the iphone through OpenAI, IT blows up that whole industry in a crazy way. Or they just like rainy pick anthropic, which to me is the most chaotic answer, and I would love for that. Yes, just go open source, be like we want with meta, a apple city powered by lama, and just look at the world and be amazing.

But I had just feels like all of this was starting not to settle, but to sort of be understandable. You kind of knew where everybody was and what they're working on. And now he feels like between all these relationships and they think, especially with apple, kind of all of the walls are up in the area, again, in a really interesting way.

yes. And something i've been thinking about a lot is sometimes these A I researchers are like we're building GPT five and it's hard to predict what it's gonna. It's hard to predict any of this is gonna do and that strange as a reporter and just a human in this world, like we don't know how this is going to change our lives at any point.

Do you think that's part of why they're leaning in on the like fruity personality side of IT? Because if it's if it's delightful, you don't IT doesn't matter that like yes, having fun with IT becomes the point and not the is that any good at tasks, which is what they want to .

get to eventually? I've heard this point before, and you know, starting as an AI reporter, people told me not to enter promotional ze the the technology, because then IT takes the blame off the company. They can blame the AI as arms.

So cognition of that as I report, and then they come out with thirty A I and it's like like I am confused because I think OpenAI also said at some points, you it's tech is not human. And we saw that with the google guy who is like, this is real, it's human and what you know so you know, to see all of that and then go, here's your purity AI girlfriend like her IT feels strange. But yes, I do think it's an interesting critique to have.

Like, look over here. This is fine. Don't pay attention to how IT barely works. I think IT is part of the point.

Yeah, I I agree. I will say, by the way, that the new times h has cornered the horn, A I beat. So we're going to have to find.

We have to find something else free to do. Really sorry, you just, you were too late to the game for the honey A, I. B. It's just you can have IT. I was wondering .

in if I could say this on the verge cast. This is a huge day for Kevin rules. I forgot to message him about IT. He's going to have ten more girlfriends by the time we finish this.

Kevin rose, vindicated everyday. Just get Better and Better to be. Kevin rules.

Kevin, we love you. Come on the verge. Cast one more thing before that you go.

You mentioned the the brief sam ouster, uh and the one other bit of opening eye news last week was that ellia sutcombe, who was a big part of that story, is leaving OpenAI e for good. What do you make of that story? What do you know about .

what's gone on there? Oh my god, that was about four P. M. I was google. I. No more news, please. Yeah, that seems to have caused other people to leave OpenAI as well. The sort of earlier count inside of OpenAI, I don't know.

I think i'm really hoping we get some fun discovery maybe from the X, A, I lawsuit against them to figure out what would down not to be totally of course, but when the government is deciding to be an tiktok and everyones like where's the receipts? What what happened um similarly here what is happening at opening eye that caused all this drama and now india is leaving and IT all feels very strange. My thoughts are we need a lot more information.

I think that is sort of odd as this changes people's lives and how they interact with technology. The meme is, what? What does ellia know? Where's ellia?

I think we deserve some answers there. I don't think we're gona get them from OpenAI. We're going to get them from great AI reporters who dig into IT. But um it's strange it's really strange.

I mean, I would think the the most simple way to read IT is that that divide that everyone sort of described the issues too, but then kind of waved off, was the like doing A I for good verses doing A I for profit. The fact that not only did earlier leave, but then a bunch of people like you said in the earlier called, also left, suggest to me that that divide, or whatever the divide was, still exists.

And there was some reporting that said alia basically never came back to work after all of this. And so IT definitely suggest me that whatever happened last fall is not done happening, like same one in whatever that looks like. But whatever is going on inside of that company seems to still be going on inside of that company.

I agree, I think that rift is still there. The reporting suggests that I was like, what E, C versus the d cells, people who want us to move fast, people who want this to be a research lab that's for good. I think that rift is still there. And I think that something you're going to continue to see in this A I race, I think the people who want to make money are going to continue coming out on top as we see here.

Yeah, I mean, as of right now, I think just think him a google I O it's like, why did they make any of these choices? The answers like, o there so much money in IT right now, right this minute? There so much money in IT.

And will there be forever? Who knows? But there is a lot right now. And this is making everybody do truly wild stuff.

Yes.

exactly that. Enough are. Well, we're going to have to have you come back on when we get more stuff from apple and build and every so welcome to hell and by hell, I mean the verge cast kate. Thank you for being care.

Thank you.

right? We got ta see one more break and then we're going to talk ipads on the test.

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All right, we're back. Let's get the outline. As always, the number is eight, six, six, verge one one.

The email is verge cast to the verge dot. Come send us all of your questions. We've gotten a lot of ipad questions.

And I think at some point here, we're going to stop answering ipad, but we tried to do at least one on the show every week, and at some point will stop talking about ipads. But this week we have a question about ipad. And IT comes from clifton. Hi, this is clifton from tika, washington. I was just listening to the case for the ipad pro podcast.

And in your compare to the ipad in the macbook, I was wondering, do you think that the majority of that one for mancos on the ipad would go away if apple just made a touch screen mak book? Also, in the same token, d think that if they made a two in one, that the work case for prose on the ipad would go and would probably just go back as a media consumption device. I think it's similar to apple thinking they know what customers want instead of actually doing what customers want.

Thanks, appreciated. So there's like a big thinking thing at the end there that I can't want to ignore for now. I need I to tell us here.

Hi 你 hi hey。 We've like talked around this for two weeks and also like ten years. So like let's just talk about this.

Like but what do we want from apple is I feel like basically of the question being asked here. There is the ipad, there's the macbook. And somewhere in the middle there is this idea of like a perfect device that would solve all of our problems.

What is IT? I think it's an ipad that doesn't have a totally restricted application model. Like that's the problem. The problem is not that IT doesn't run mac west.

What mac west represents to people as freedom, right? I can just use this thing like a computer, and developers can show up and fill the gaps that apple has left open. You cannot do that on ipad, so it's just whatever apple wants you to do. And if they would just let go, I think these things would evolve on very different trajectories and they just won't go, which I guess comes back to.

what do we want apple to do? What I think I I largely agree, like I got a bunch of crap on threads because I posted something to the effective lake. I agree that I don't want huge sweeping changes to the ipad, but I would be nice to be able to put windows where I want them to.

And I vote. People like google put windows wherever you want. And i'm looking right now. I can see nine different apps on my mac right now, see them all. And that is not how works on the ipad. And there are like a million little things like that to me, but the evolution thing. I'm curious how you think because I think the case, a lot of people would make us that if you just let both of these things kind of be everything, that eventually they would just crash into each other in the ipad of the back would essentially be the same thing. You don't think that's the case.

I do. I think about a lot of ipad use cases that I see that I think you're really interesting. And america, a lawyer, some lawyers show up in meetings with ipads just to sign contracts and get through them. You don't need a mac laptop for that in the keyboard case for that, right?

And also the fact, by the way, that IT lies flat on a desk or table is actually really important. Like I was thinking about this foreign tor wise, right? Like, if you just put a sugar on the mac, does IT suddenly solve all of your ipad problems. And like, no, because drawing like that sucks signing you. Things like that sucks like having a thing that just lies down like a piece of paper on a table does change things.

I think you're right. I will know that you have to put a case on some of these ipads to and actually life know I I agree with you, there's just a bunch of places where you want a computer in a tb form factor that is where the interfaces natively touch. great.

Again, we get notes from people who are like interior designers and architects who are like, this thing is my computer. I walk around taking pictures with IT and showing people things and drawing on IT all day long. And I killed the bed in my head every day, which is admitted not so hard to you, but there's just a world of use cases that way.

And then there's a world of use cases for the laptop form factor. And I think the problem is apple thinks the form factor is important and not the use cases. So they are like, we'll just make IT a laptop and now it's a laptop replacement.

And I think most people are like, well, I use my laptop for all these things and I can't do those things right. And then I I this is just me imposing a belief on apple. I think apple wants computers to be easier than the market wants them to be.

You know, like people will give a kid of crazy stuff started yeah right. Like they start to expand on the boundary of what you can even do with some of these applications. That's really cool.

I've seen entire graphic design businesses that have existed by teenagers using the instagram create mode in which said no instagram product manager ever thought that thing would be used. That's the beauty of computers. And to whatever extent that has not happened on the ipad, I think that's the tragedy. And I think it's because of the restrictions in .

the Operating system.

Yeah, I tend to agree, but I think something at the very big inning of this I think is is very striking, which is the assumption that the best version of this thing is closer to an ipad that does more stuff then IT is to a mac with a touch screen, right? Because I think like just to boil this question all the way down, it's like does a mac with a touch screen solve all of our problems? And I think the answers is clearly no. And i'm not even sure IT solves many of our problems like I actually I look at my mac and like I don't know how often I want a touch screen on this thing. And I think to me, when I look at the ipad, the best version of that is so much more interesting than kind of the next version of a mac that make sense.

I'm confident the criticism we will get because you said that is for a lunch of windows. People who use touch Greens on windows p long know like this is great actually in public a version I can't tell you if I was a decade ago or yesterday right on warn IT published like touching the screen on a PC is pretty good because we have been talking about IT for long time and that is pretty good.

The people who use computers that way, they get used to IT, they like IT. To me, it's it's really just about the application model and in particular on the mac because the web browsers are so good and you can run different web browsing engines and on safari and whatever else, there is a richness to the experience that you just get. You can just have a lot of the latest things on a mac because all of the latest things tend to on in the web browser.

All of the AI in the world is happening in web brows er right? You cannot do that on ipad like the web browsers. Still pretty much mobile safari. They fake IT in different ways spread. And it's just that it's that right.

Apple has just restricted a bunch of stuff maybe to protect apples business model, maybe because they have an idea of vision of what and ipad user should do or how they should work or how easy you should be. Your keep you safer, secure whatever you want to believe about why this has happened, that has happened. And I think those are limits of people keep popping up against and saying, I just like to be a mac because the mac represents those limits going away. And I really do think you can see you know and other kinds of tablets that if you let that form factor evolve, they will head towards a different place like I think would be really interesting if the solution to the input problem, especially about the A I we have now isn't just put a keyboard on just haven't tried yeah because we are like maybe that maybe everything will just you know how like everything evolves into be crab. Everything is evolving to be a laptop to get and ah and that's the .

thing I think like when when people have asked me or the last week, like why are you so hung up on the idea that apple show IT or could or ought to make this thing more like a laptop? I just find this warning, hold the thing up with the magic keyboard in me like because apple made IT a lot. The two accessory this company has invested in are a pencil, which makes perfect sense, is extremely ipad.

I and I actually think is like ipad plus. Pental is, by far the most compelling case, foreign ipad in every way you can imagine. Or it's a laptop. Yeah, like they just IT just looks like a laptop IT acts like a laptop, but the gmail APP is worse. Like that's the difference. And i'm sort of with you in that sense, but like to the windows point, right the surface ryme with an ipad, I would say almost more than IT rimes with a mac, right? Like IT runs windows and I can do all the stuff. But in terms of like the spirit of that device is so much on ipad yeah and I think actually like microsoft tt really right and just has not really solved to a lot of the software suffered on windows like the surface is in everything I could be because of windows in the same way that ipad is like hamstrung by ipad OS. But in completely, radically separate ways.

What's two companies reacting to the web in totally different ways? Microsoft just lost to the web and no one's developing hot shit. Win thirty two applications.

The surface outside the games know the decide. But like the hottest new applications in the world happened on the web. Like that is a fat that just true. The web has become the dominant place to deploy the stock applications. Great microsoft are attitude, but just letting go I mean, like you know what we built azure, put your web applications on our club space and run OpenAI cloud service will make the money there whatever. We'll just try to get you to use edge.

Yeah and that is one reaction of big company.

especially they lost more. They placed in a choice. Apple's response IT is like, no, no, that won't happen.

IT also right in on our tablet. You will deploy applications for the ipad. You will use the APP store. And indeed, there are some cool ipad apps because of IT. That's great.

Like procreate is an entire company that exists to develop ipad apps and use the ipad in the way that apple wants people. That is great. That's a success story.

But there's not a lot of great ipad apps like they freeze the balloon and didn't get a lot bigger like mostly the air one out. They're some baLance in there. But you can see those are two reactions to the same problem.

All I keep thinking as you say, that is like, boy, it's ridiculous that google never figured out how to make decent hardware out of this, that like this circling google da around chrome books and android tablets in all this stuff, like nobody should be more incentivize to figure out how to do this well in google. And I just, and that makes me angry. And I just look at my pixel block. And oh my god.

you could have been something, you could have been great. I mean, I famously bought my mother a crib pio boveri years ago. Still uses because IT was easier to use in the windows P C or a mac.

Well, you open a mac today. IT has fifty different interface pair times all happening at you once launched pad and mac apps and a web brows. Er and it's trying to get you to safety and all the other stuff is and you can run ipad apps and he has an APP store.

But you can also and like that's too much like actually just go to bunch of web pages and use what everyone is there is. And here's a really nice, we are hard work to do. IT is pretty good.

And I think you look at can all the like the steam deck of the world that are running games in the nex. Now I know, oh, you could build a kick s chrome book right now. Is anyone going to do IT? It's like, I don't know. Like we've come a long way from the ipad around like you could build a kick ice cream bug. But that feels like one version of computing where the restraint are lifted and IT does everything everyone wants and the simplicity that apple chasing with the ipad is still there.

Yeah I really do agree with and you said this on last friday, show that desktop web brows er like a true great deaths p web browsing environment would immediately solve a lot of people's ipad problems. I think that I think that's really real.

Yeah let us just one come look honestly, maybe i'll destroy the battery fire, grow as a lot of problems, but if you just let me use an ipad like a chrome book, yeah you know, like I would still buy the hard words, still pay for apple's various services. I would still need eye e cloud store, I you will make your money in, but like, let me use the computer the way I want to.

So maybe maybe part of the reason people want a touch screen macbook is that that seems like the more likely way to get closer to that perfect middle because I think the ipad thing you're describing is like, what if we just blew up the whole way apple things about itself and they're be cool, but seems less likely than there might be a touch screen on a macbook.

And mark government has reported that apples, considering that, again, like IT, IT has seemed an athlete to apple for a long time. But I I would track that is probably a more likely sort of nudged towards the perfect all things for all people computer then let's upon the APP model entirely. Well.

I think there's two easy thing about that one. At some point you're just like it's an for and it's a keyboard and screen. They should be the same. I mean.

I would assume me, by the way, that they will be like I suspect we are going to get a mac with basically these exact same specks before very .

long yeah the only different of mac ipad is that that doesn't never random White .

our sensor in the Cameron the back yeah.

But I think the other thing that is happening is in europe, there's eventually regulations that say you have to let other web brothers on these devices with their own engines. And maybe someone just makes a great deathtrap web brows er with the desktop chrome engine.

Maybe I in like I think as we've already seen with emulators IT really reconnecting aliases, what you can do when you get out of apple restrictions or those restrictions fade away and other people allowed to use the hardware h to their advantage. So I think that the ipad is in all the regulations. Now there are some back and forth on IT, but they think european ans or europeans, and now we're taking that great. So I just think there is something else that might happen there that could really change how we feel about ipad.

That's fair. I guess I just mean, I don't see a world in my job does that of its own violation really with the ipad, apple seems so precious about the way that that thing works. Every ti tiny think IT has done to open IT up has felt extremely kicking and screaming against this will.

Yeah because it's the one that they control. It's the one that is a monopoly. I guess like it's hard to make the case like a european's are regulating IT for various reasons because they think it's a get keeper, but it's apple.

The apple has alone said this is our vision for the future of computing. IT is not one in the market. IT just hasn't like they sell a lot of ipads s on more tables, anybody else but people still use their laptops like, right?

I can look at our own usage in google analytics s on our web page and tell you no one's browsing our website on a like it's just not happening. And so I think they feel protective of IT because it's not under a pressure. They are the market, the markets really small.

yeah. And I think they have this sense of what IT could be. And IT is like beautiful and perfect and extremely apple.

If they want to do they, then we wouldn't need touch cream backlogs. IT would all be fun, right? We should go of me.

I thank you guys. Alright, that is IT for the verge cast to day. Thanks to everybody who came on the show, and thank you.

Especially as always for listener, is lots more on everything we talked about at the verge that come tons from the surface event and all the new microsoft things, all of our open a eye coverage, everything about ads, all of that will put IT in the show notes, but also read the verse I come IT is just a crazy new zy week. Microsoft build today, develop for conferences are everywhere. A I stuff is everywhere.

There's just a time going on. As always, if you have thoughts, questions, feelings or PC recommendations for me, you can always email us, add verge cast at the verge dot com, or keep calling the hot line eight, six, six verge one one. Like I said, I love hearing from you.

We have a slack room that just pumps in every voice meal, and we get to listen to IT. It's so much fun. IT is my absolute favorite thing, both about maybe my job and definitely about being inlay ked.

If you've got ideas, thoughts, questions, keep IT all common. This show is produced by Angel ino lem James and will poor the verge cases verge production and part of the vox media podcast network. Nearly alex now will be back on friday to talk more about, build more about A I and everything else going on in text. This week, we will see them right room.

Support for this episode comes from A W S. A W S, generate A A I gives you the tools to power your business forward with the security and speed of the world's most experienced cloud. Hey, it's lee. From decoder with neither to we spent a lot of time talking about some of the most important people in taking business about what they're putting resources to and why they think it's so critical for the future. That's why we're doing this special series diving into some of the most unique ways companies are spending money today.

For instance, what does that mean to start buying and using AI at work? How much is that costing companies? What products are they buying? And most importantly, what are they doing with IT? And of course, podcasts? Yes, the thing you're listening to you right now, well, it's increasingly being produced directly by companies like venture capital firms, investment funds and a new crop of creators who one day want to be investors themselves.

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