Shownotes Transcript
Support for the verge cast comes from strike. Strike is a payments in billion platform supporting millions of businesses around the world, including companies like uber, B, M W and door dash. Striping has help countless startups and establish companies like reached their groth goals, make progress on their emissions and reach more customers globally.
The platform offers a sweet of specialized features and tools to fash track growth like stripe billing, which makes IT easy to handle subscription based charges, invoices and all reactions ring revenue management needs. You can learn how stripe helps companies of all sizes make progress at stripe dot com that striped out com to learn more, right, make progress. Support for the show comes from service.
Now the AI platform for business transformation. You've heard the big hype around A I, and the truth is A I is only as powerful as the platform is built into service. Now is the platform that puts A I to work for people across your business, removing frustration for your employees, super charging productivity for developers, providing intelligent tools for your service agents to make customers happier, all built into a single platform you can use right now. And that's why the world works with service now is a service now can flash A I for people to learn more.
Welcome to the verge cast the flagship podcast of the tiktok bin. I'm my friend David, piers and I and the only one here with vacations and sickness and stuff. We are not doing a Normal friday episode this week.
Everybody's back. Next week, we will be back to our regular this schedule programme. But for today, we have something much Better than me, like alex tailor s is here.
Hydrolytic eupol. Caster, now, last time we did this, you have, like, airports on. Now you have a light, you have a mike. Like, this is a whole .
thing I know I have the vox media set up showed out to the producers that sent me all this. The gear official is there .
like a box they sent you that's like, welcome to podcast.
Yeah, I was a box they sent them, went over to put up the lights in my pitten.
which is where I am. So you just 算是 podcast。 It's called power user. Tell the people about your podcast.
It's a weekly attacked news show. Um but IT focuses more on the things that I cover, which is is the user side of tack. A lot of internet culture media landscape staff, you some creator industry staff, mr.
Beast also touching on things like netflix, you know disney, some entertainment media business and just wild weird internet stories and trends. This week we're talking about kindness influencers, which are a play on tiktok. And one of you see those the guys that exploit on house people for content, basically.
And there's this feed between two big kindness influencers over essentially helping this one family in west Virginia, Moore. We're talk about the under huberman exposed as well. And so yeah, it's I think it's a good listen. We just launched IT last week.
Yeah, you picked interesting time. Do this. There is like not a shortage of weird stuff happening .
on the internet at this moment. no. And I want people to Better understand that I think we talk so much about big tech and sort of the traditional silk valley side of tack, and there's not as many, I think, tech podcast focused on the tech world outside silicon valley and just more of the cultural side of things. So so i'm having again.
yeah, this actually one of the things I was thinking about as as you were you know, we talked a little bit, you are getting ready, launch the podcast and IT seems like we're in this weird place where there are a ton of creators who have podcasts, right? Like it's I feel like it's the same way. And like the sport world right there used to be lots of people who talked about athletes and now the athletes are just doing the talking.
But I feel like they're in this sort of space of like people talking about this business. It's either the people who are in IT everyday living IT or nobody really talks about IT. It's very weird.
And I feel like this is been like the needle you've been threading for a really long time. We really like, no, this matters. But also if it's just to create or talking about their own life, that's not the quite not quite the same thing is like doing journalism about .
IT exactly yeah and I think also, I mean, I have a big gun and creator on this week yeah so you know, I I love craters and I want to shoot them, but I I think it's worth giving a little bit more critical thought. I think a lot of times when you're in in industry when you can't speak as freely about IT, sometimes because you are in insta, the is more interpersonal drama, like drama stuff culture.
I mean, there's a lot of internet culture, youtube r podcast that I listen to all the time. I think i'm coming out IT more from like a business and cultural and journalistic angle, but I love those youtube ers and I hope to have them on and i'm A A commentary gentle fan. So oh yeah.
there's lots of good there to one gaming rock. There's lots of different ways to come at this. So the episode we're going to play here is about the tiktok ban.
We picked this one because we talked to bunch about the tiktok ban on the verge casts two weeks ago, uh, and everyone got very matter of us. We disagreed violently about what should happen here. Everybody got very up.
We got a lot of emails are being accused of being a, uh, chinese communist, basically. And a lot of people think me, I hate free speech, uh, and that think alex is also matter. Everybody is really good time.
I'm just curse how you feel about where we are with a tiktok band right now. We're going to hear a bunch about this in the episode. But where is your head with what you're thinking about the tiktok and kind of right in this moment?
Oh gosh, he said very honestly to the other day I was like, we're living in an era of mass censorship and he was like, okay, you're starting to sound like elon mask but as a journalist, and I would imagine you guys fill the same way. But you know, I care a lot about civil liberties. I've always care a lot about civil liberties.
And I ve spent a enormous and reporting on tiktok, and not just tiktok, but musically. And I remember when there was this fight, when facebook was driving musical into the ground and they had to sell um and via com. You know there was a minute that we thought vaca my bite dance came in and sort about IT and and just the latter of course no one cared back then that the one of the image have called that one of the most relevant, fast growing video social networks on the planet being bought by by dance.
And then now there's this panic. Five years later, it's little hard for me to take IT quite as seriously. Not that i'm like, where was this energy when you allow this deal to happen five years ago, but also I write a lot about a lot of other upcoming and there is just chinese influence in so many things, gaming particularly.
And you know, so I find a lot of these arguments that these lawmakers are making. IT doesn't seem like the ban as IT currently stands. A current bill would address any of these issues, right? Doesn't address any the problems with data brokers, doesn't address lot of the civil liberties free speech of, as I said before, and I was also accused of being a communist and understand breaking this comment.
But even if tiktok was a chinese propaganda APP, we're supposed to have a free and open internet. What if I am a communi want to consume chinese propaganda all day? This is amErica I should be allowed to 地带。
Yeah, we got a lot of emails from people after the upside a couple of weeks ago that we're .
basically like what china bans IT. Also, we should mimic an authority, an state oh well, this authoritarian change over there. Yeah, what? No, I actually don't want the government to control our APP store. It's so funny the way this is split around political lines and I think, I mean, i'm planning a future episode about this. I really hope people tune and out of anyone's been following the john athan hate uh, anti phone press tour recently but there's just this you can push a lot of bad legislation and dangerous things through and sell people on things when you tell them it's protecting children and you know, here's what your children up to and they are being brainwashed, you know, by this chinese communist APP or whatever. And it's just not true. I I mean, i'm very skeletons, al, of all of that the save the children type messaging round phones generally and especially around tiktok because tiktok is quite you know liberating for a lot of because it's not like instagram and a lot of other apps which have actually done the things that they are accusing tiktok of doing, like manipulate you, affecting our elections, causing a lot of self harm, any disorder ters, whatever not to say you, tiktok is a very different tiktok, much working to youtube. I always could say it's the combination of twitter and .
I think that's right um right. Well, before we get into the epsom, how can people find in the show? It's all the places you could castrate.
It's called power user. You're also on youtube, right? Do in video ourself.
Yes, it's on my youtube channel. So please subscribe Taylor errands. I'm doing lots more videos, lots more tech videos. It's just tell the lands on youtube and you can find us on spotify, apple pocket. Please review IT if you like IT and instagram m going to be sharing where power user pod on instagram?
awesome. right? Well, here is the first episode of power user. Thanks, deler.
Thanks me.
This week we're talking about the tiktok ban, how shrimp p. Jesus is taking over a facebook and mr. Beats record breaking new reality show. I'm tailor the rest and that's all coming up right now on power user.
Support for the show comes from crucible moments, a podcast from scope capital. We've all had turning points in our lives where the decisions we make end up having lasting consequences.
No one knows this Better than the founders of some of today's most influential comments in critical moments. Let's listeners in on the maker break events that defined major companies like dropbox, youtube, Robinson od and more told by the founders themselves.
Tune in to the season two of crucial moments. Today you can listen at crucial moments, top com, or where every listen to podcasts.
Support for this show comes from the aclu. The acl u knows exactly what threats a second Donald trump term presents, and they are ready with a battle tested playback. The aclu took a legal action against the first trump administration four hundred and thirty four times, and they will do IT again to protect immigrants rights, defend reproductive freedom, safeguard free speech and fight for all of our fundamental rates and freedoms. Join the aclu today to help stop the extreme project twenty twenty five agenda. Learn more at aclu dot org.
When IT comes to S M B marketing, reaching the right small and medium size businesses can be chAllenging into IT. S M B media labs gives you the power to do more by connecting with the small businesses that need you most with access to an audience of thirty six million, you can target effectively and at scale.
By leveraging insight from small business audiences, you can target businesses by industry size, maturity, location and more, and drive growth across new and existing channels like social, programmatic and C. T. V. Spend wisely and do more with audiences. Taylor, to your business, learn more and media labs, not into IT, not com.
Welcome to power user. I tell the runs of technology journalists, and i'm so excited to be launching this show today. I've been covering internet culture on my is on the tech world for over a decade.
Every week i'm going to be breaking down the biggest stories and tag online culture. And this week, the big story is definitely tiktok. Recently, the house of representatives mutable forward that would effectively ban the APP and the future of the platform is looking dici.
So i'm bringing in evening are the director of fight for the future, a non partisan, non profit organization that fights for civil liberties online. We're going to break down the concerns around tiktok, what lawmakers are hoping to achieve by banning IT and whether this APP is really something we should all be worried about. Hi, evan. Thank you so much for joining me on the first episode of power user. Yeah for sure.
teller. Thanks so much. We're having me on.
You've been super critical of this legislation. So I want to talk about some of the concerns with this bill and what you feel like congress could actually be doing to make our lives Better on. First of all, a lot of lawmakers are trying to claim that this is not a real band, is a force sale. And there's some sort of big distinction between the two things. Is IT fair to character ze this legislation as a for sale or is this an effective ban?
This bill is a ban by any other name. Um i'm not A A business lawyer. I've never tried to buy or sell a multi billion dollar company but IT doesn't take an expert to understand that like those types of things don't tend to happen overnight and all of the experts that i've talked to have suggested that the six months time eline that's laid out in this bill that would attempt to force tiktok to effectively sell itself um or get banned is just completely in practical and ridiculous. We yeah it's .
actually one hundred and eighty days right within that six month time when they have to sell within one hundred and eighty days, which, as my colleague drew reported, would be one of authority st and most complicated transactions in all of corporate history. And IT would almost certainly pose insurance table financial, technical and geopolitical chAllenges, making the sale basically untenable.
That's exactly right. That's what i've heard from every expert that i've talked to about IT as well, which is why the acl, u and many others, the liberty's organizations have said clearly that this does amount to a ban. And because of that, it's clearly unconstitional tional.
In the united states, we have the first amendment. IT prohibits the government from engaging in acts of censorship unless they can prove they have no other option, no other way to address the concerns that they are raising and you know will get into IT a little bit more later. But they have many options, many ways, that they could address legitimate concerns with tiktok, other big tech companies short of actually banning them all right.
yeah. And also, I mean, you mention these lawmakers themselves have been referring to his van. I just want to read a couple quotes from some of those lawmakers. These are the people that championed the bill and usher IT through representative east depo ic says, quote, i'm proud to join chairman in my gallagher to finally ban tiktok united states and then representative bob lota says, i'm proud to help lead the bay partisan act, which will ban the APP from the united states. Representative chippy says, i'm proud to partner with the representatives on this bipartisan bill to ban the distribution of tiktok in the us. These lawmakers might try to sort of spinning in the media like, oh, it's not a real ban, but this is an effective ban and that is how they themselves are promoting IT.
That's exactly right. And I think in their minds, I don't know that we've actually like game this out until the end, right? They may very much end up as the dogs who caught the car because I think they perhaps really are hoping to bully tiktok into selling themselves to U.
S. Company or something like that. But the time line that they've played out is a ridiculous that they might end up sort of accidentally banning tiktok and then dealing with the political consequences of that.
Says we know IT is an APP that is wildly popular, especially with Young people, which both parties are struggling to speak to in terms of what the issues that they care about. So um I think unfortunately, this is a lot of like tech policy made for TV. And I think it's bad politics on both sight. It's all a rap.
I to mention that musically, which is what tiktok was named before, they regretted his tiktok was sold to bite down in twenty seventeen. None of these lawmakers had any issue with that sale. The time, of course.
But the reason that musically sai went through and bite dance was the one to buy IT as well is because there were no viable U. S. purchasers. Google and meta were especially written out because of anti trust concerns.
So I just think it's very telling that like who is this up on assault? You know, if this alleged for sales exposed to happen, any major company that I would sell to, I think there would be serious santy to trust concerns. So it's just totally unfeasible.
Yeah, that's exactly right. Right.
evan. So let's get into some of the civil liberties concerns with the ban. How is this a free speech and first amendment? sue?
So what this really comes down to is, do you believe that your government should be able to tell you where you can get news from and where you can express yourself? In the united states, we have the first amendment. The first amendment prohibits the government from telling me, I can't give an interview to our genera, even though algeria is not owned by A U.
S. company. Just like the government can't stop me from writing an oped or a letter to the editor to a foregone newspaper.
Tiktok is a platform that millions of americans used to express themselves, so banning IT would amount to silencing the voices of millions of people. The first amendment requires that if the U. S.
Government is going to engage in that type of active, restricting speech, they have to prove that they have no other way to address their concerns. Now, the concerns the U. S.
Government has stated in this case, they say, tiktok is collecting your data, IT could be shared with the chinese government, and the chinese government could be manipulating tiktok algorithm to spread propaganda. Let's take both of those concerns at face value. Let's say it's true. I mean.
my feeling is even if I was a chinese propagate APP say IT was don't we have the right to consume that if we want? Isn't that supposed to be a freedom that were allowed? absolutely.
You know there's nothing that says we shouldn't be able to read lies um and you know unfortunately, there's more of them floating around on the internet than any of us would perhaps like but yes, absolutely.
Even if we take the government's concerns completely at face value and they believe the chinese communist party is literally has their hand on the lever and is like controlling tiktok algorithm tic granular level and must be clear, there is no actual evidence to suggest that that has happened, but it's a valid concern. Governments do things. The chinese government certainly does engage in authoritarian acts.
You worth asking that said, there's absolutely ways to address that. We could pass algorithmic transparency legislation and require that companies like tiktok open up their algorithms to three party auditors that would catch a government that was engaging in that kind of manipulation. We could pass privacy legislation to prevent them from collecting so much data about all of us in the first place in using that data to recommend us content. Those are meaningful ways that we could address the types of concerns that the government is raising without banning an APP that millions of people used to express themselves. That's why banning tiktok is blatantly and constitutional, and Frankly, a huge distraction from the types of real measures that would actually lead to a Better internet with more free expression and more human rights for everyone.
Yeah, I mean, I just think it's so telling that while these lawmakers claim you know concerns around national security and everything and we'll definite get into that when you listen to what they set at the hearing, you realize that repeatedly they express issue with the content they believe to be on the APP from the data collects to the contented controls.
Tiktok is a grave threat of foreign influence in american life, it's been said, is like allowing the soviet union the power to produce saturday morning cartoons during the cold war, but much more powerful and much more dangerous. Banning your platform will address the immediate threats. And that, to me, is released scary and destroy an because once we have these lawmakers starting to sort of legislation, the content that they think is okay, you know, to expose people to online, or the news and information you know that Young people have access to through apps like tiktok or other social media platforms, IT just feels scary. Like that feels very much like an infringement on our ability to freely consume information and express .
ideas yeah and unfortunately, that kind of authoritarian impulse going after online speech and content is not just limited to tiktok and it's unfortunately very ed bipartisan in dc right now. Both democrats and republicans have really leaned into this idea that it's like online content and speech that is driving these harms in our society rather than the underlying business practices of these companies that we can act also regulate.
And so what you see is republican sort of being like, look at all this content that our kids are consuming and they are talking about leg group's drag race videos or recover IT, but then you see democrats reading into IT saying, look at these and rotate videos and like, they're being recommended to kids and like, that's terrible. And like, they're right, that's terrible. The way that we addressed that is by addressing patriarchy in our society, by attacking the underlying business model that makes IT profitable for companies to artificially amplify the most extreme content. We cannot address this issue through government censorship. That just leads to more harm, particularly for Young people.
and say, china did want to interfere with amErica through, you know, programming, social media. Is there anything that tiktok specifically allows that other american owned upside, facebook and twitter and youtube don't allow?
No, these companies Operate in almost the exact same manner. They all employed the same basic surveilLance capitalist business model, which is about collecting your data, monitoring what you do on the APP and then using that information to recommend you content in order to keep you clicking and scrolling and generating advertising revenue. They're all basically the same APP. And they all sorted increasingly become more and more like the same aps. They just sort of copy each .
other although one thing i'll say about that is that there husbands refrain from a lot of people of, oh, well, because these are just the same apps. If we delete tiktok, everybody can just go use you know instagram or twitter or whatever. And I do think that there's something that's different, tiktok, which is that it's not owned by american company.
And also these other platforms have made very aggressive moves to sensor speech. I mean, i'm just thinking of meta instagram recent policies saying that any content that touches on political issues or social issues would be downrange. And that is the type of stuff that they are trying to deprived tize on instagram, facebook and threads.
So it's really hard to talk about things like revenge plorn or the election or just is really critical issues that we should be talking about. An society on matter owned apps. Look at twitter, right? England must to spend the past week banning any journalists that reported on this nazi comic book writer.
And youtube is much more than entertainment platform in the sense that I don't think a lot of averages post on there. It's also not a great place for politics. So I do think that tiktok allowed a certain group of people, especially Young, progressive, a space to really have these urgent political conversations about things like the wrong gaza or climate change and things like that. And IT seems that seems to have really urged to these lawmakers.
Yeah, I think that's definitely a part of the picture here, although I think in the long run, we just have to recognize that like tiktok may be a friendly or space for some of the politics that we care about right now. But in the end, as long as we're reliant on a very small handful of privately owned companies, whether they're owned by U. S.
Companies or companies based in other countries to be the kind of digital public square. We're always going to be sort of the wim of whether our digital landlord is, whether it's elon musk or a mark zuker berg or by dance. And so I think again, that's why we need more thoughtful and comprehensive policies that get us past the current era that we're in, in to the future where we have meaningful choices so that if you are concerned about tiktok or instagram or any other company and their business practices, you can actually go find somewhere else.
And just to other point of this idea that like, oh, we ban tiktok, everyone can just immediately switch. Big tech companies have intentionally made IT as difficult as possible to switch from one platform to another to bring your followers with you. And you know that really affects marginalized people the most.
Maybe if you're a big celebrity and, you know, the APP iron gets banned, you can switch to a different APP. Everyone's gna follow you there if you're an L G B T Q content creator or a musician or someone who spent a lot of time building an audience on one platform, and then that platform gets ripped out from underneath you. That can have a profound impact on your ability to make living, your ability to make a rent that month, your ability to express yourself and connect with your community and your audience.
So I think we shouldn't dismiss or ignore the real human impacts of these types of measures. Are thinking about banning an entire APP or the impact has on people when and now gets bought or sold. I mean, you know, IT personally impacted me when elon must bought twitter.
IT was some place I spent a fair amount of time building an audience in, speaking, particularly to other L, G, B, T, Q. people. And then I became a much less friendly place for my community. That's a reality that, you know, many people have to deal with, and we should take IT seriously.
And I think a lot of people also misunderstand the ownership structure of tiktok. Tiktok is not majority owned by bike dance. okay? This is not how tiktok zone. Tiktok IT was in a company that was incorporated in amErica and IT is based in los Angeles and singapore. IT does not Operate in china.
IT is owned sixty percent by foreign investors, including many americans, twenty percent owned by employees including over seven thousand american employees, and twenty percent owned by the company's founders. So does bite dance have a stake in tiktok? Yes, but this is not an APP that is solely owned by a chinese corporation.
So back in two and nineteen, the U. S. Government forced another chinese company to give up a sixty percent stake in grinder, a gay dating APP.
It's bothers me a little bit when he will try to make these comparisons because grinder is not a media platform as a social media platform is a completely different products. Also, the ownership structure is completely different. In that case, uh, chinese company had majority ownership like it's truly apples to oranges. And IT is very frustrating to to sort of debunk all the different ways this is different. Grader had a completely different corporate ownership structure.
Well, and even more absurd, when the U. S. Government forced grinder to sell itself to U. S. Company, which they did IT. Wasn't that long ago that data brokers were caught collecting and selling information from grinder to a right wing religious group that was using IT to track down priests they thought might be gay?
So here's an example of where, if what we're really concerned about is, like bad actors might get this data from tiktok, then we need to regulate the industry of collecting and selling people's data because the chinese government, if you're concerned about them, could just go buy a lot of the same data from data brokers in the U. S. That they could get from tiktok if that's even happening, which again, there there is no evidence to suggest that is actually.
So let's take into some of the national security concerns because I think a lot of people are scared about the data privacy. Tiktok has said repeatedly that U. S. User data is stored in texas on oracle controlled servers.
So in order for tiktok to make changes or access the data, or the chinese government was going to try to access the data, IT would have to go through oracle, which is A U. S. Space company, to access that data, which again, his house in the U.
S. There is no evidence that any chinese entity has even tried to gain access that data. Meanwhile, we know that back in two and sixteen and many other times, foreign governments actually were able to manipulate our social media landscape, not through any sort of secret data obtaining, but through buying things like public facebook ads or buying data publicly. So tell me a little bit about these concerns about data privacy and tiktok and whether you think that any of this is warranted.
shit. So people are right to be concerned about tiktok collecting their data. They should just also be as concerned about companies like instagram and uber and post mates and your dog walking up and almost every other free online service that you use collecting your data.
And what we know is that once a company collects your data, IT doesn't necessarily stay with that company. There is a massive unregulated data broker industry in the U. S. Companies collect your data and then sell IT to other companies who will then sell IT to the highest bitter is a national embarrassment that we do not have basic data privacy laws here in the us.
So it's almost sort of a funny talking point for tiktok I would say to be like our data has house in texas where there is basically no privacy protections are laws um to protect your data and we have like the eternal general of texas can taxi is like making lists of trans people so IT doesn't make me feel particularly safer that my data is stored there than if I were stored anywhere else. In the end, what we need is policies that protect everyone's data, which would start with a strong national privacy law here in the us. And ideally laws like that all around the world.
Why has an a law like that been passed? Because IT seems like such a no brainer or this is something that consumers have repeatedly asked for.
IT is and it's where there's so much consensus between human rights experts and the business community and others like everyone agrees the privacy law would be a good idea. The reason that hasn't moved forward is basically the same reasons that a lot of other legislation doesn't move. It's about corruption, corporate influence and congressional dish function.
So the corporate influence part is probably the biggest factor here. Certainly, big tech companies have been very active in lobbying against strong privacy legislation, but it's not just the like metas and instagram and youtube es of the world that care about this. Its bank of amErica and wall mart and target and effectively every other large U S.
Company that at this point has some interest in being able to conduct the type of commercial surveilLance that allows them to gain a competitive edge. So unfortunately, because of a lack of regulation, almost every big company and the us. Has sort of become a surveilLance capitalist company in some capacity or other.
And that's a big reason why privacy legislation hasn't moved forward because it's not just opposed by the tech industry, it's sort opposed by wall street and the broader ahe mates of the american economy. And that's what needs to be overcome to get something done on this, even though it's overwhelmingly supported. People from across the political spectrum overwhelmingly agree we don't want companies to be able to collect so much of our private information and use IT to enrich themselves at the cost of our basic rights and safety.
And curious what you think about bitten reversal in all this, you know, back in twenty twenty IT, was trump pushing this ban? Trump has now recognized correctly, but A A ban would actually evolving facebook, which I guess is his enemy now. And now we have biden saying that he would sign a bill into law. What do you think, lad, do that flip flat.
I think IT just shows that, again, this is really all about politics, right? More than it's about the substance, more than it's about any specific business practice and more than it's about any legitimate concerns. Tiktok has become a bit of a political football that's being kicked back and forth between two parties that are sort of trying to outcompete each other on who can be the tough st on china um and all of us in our basic rights and free expression or sort of caught in the middle of this political football game but I think, you know, just to say IT like, look, i'm an advocate. I run a non partisan, non profit. We've focus on advocating for people's rights so I don't get involved in electoral politics but just IT doesn't take an expert to sit back and be like IT would be bad politics for any lawmaker or certainly any sitting president or presidential hopeful to get on board with the idea of banning an APP that is disproportionate, used by Young people who are the voters that both parties are desperately trying to court and so is just strikes me as like deeply silly and absurd and especially now that trump p has come out and said that he's against a tiktok, then. Bitten would just be walking into the most obvious trap ever if you were to sign a bill betting tiktok in hand trump this talking point to beat him over the head with, especially with the Young voters that he is really struggling to keep support from, especially given his ongoing support of the baLance in gaza and a lot of other issues that Young people are concerned about and talking about on tiktok um primarily yeah .
you know speaking of playing politics. Tiktok was also accused of playing politics by forcing users to contact their representatives and express their opinion on the ban. Just to be clear, tiktok didn't force users to do anything despite what congress people are claiming. How do you think that pusher that they said helped or hurt them?
Yeah you know I mean, I think it's hard to say, right? Certainly many members of congress have leaned into that talking point. I'd like, see, look, here's the proof that they have all this power to manipulate people.
I mean, i'm old enough to remember the sop, a blackout when wikipedia and thousands of other websites blacked out their home page to protest internet censorship legislation that could have LED to widespread harm online. So this is not a brand new thing. That said, you know, I couldn't tell you whether I was not helpful or hurtful to their case in washington, dc, because in the end, I think this does come down to politics.
And so what law make think is got to helped or hurt them in the election? I should have mention this earlier, but just like the timely that has been layed out in this bill of when a sale would have to be forced is suspiciously timed to be before the election, right? And so I think, again, that does show us that, like, more than this is about china, more than this is about data, more than this is about speech. This is about twenty, twenty four and politicians sort of joking for position with tiktok as a ball that they're kicking back and forth.
I'm so glad you ve brought up soa a nap blackout because there has been so many efforts over the years from tech companies and startups to push certain pieces of legislation through congress and the wise. I'm also thinking of all of the work that companies did around neutrality. I mean, for a while, you couldn't log onto tumblr back in the day without being hit with this big message about this net neutrality legislation congress wanted to pass.
More recently, other tech companies have push messaging to users about legislation they felt would threaten their businesses directly installed uber, lived close mates, door dash have all engaged in this type of behavior in twenty twenty other users in hell faring out to confirm that they'd seen a message before calling the ride, which told them that wheat times and Prices would rise if this lege station called prop twenty two wasn't past. And uber actually sent repeated push notifications to users, warning them about prop twenty two. Institut workers were also even instructed to insert stickers and fires in dorsy, a pretty controversial california ballot measure into customers shopping bags at grocery stores. I really agreed with the verge es message, who said, you know, it's really weird to act like this types of behavior isn't standard. And I think that these lawmakers trying to spin IT as, like china pushing its agenda on the american public, are ignoring a long history of tech companies and startups doing exactly this.
Yeah, absolutely. And look like this is how companies Operate in a capital a system. We should reckon with that and then decide what we want to do as a society and what sorts of all should be governing technology and recognize that companies are going to try to influence that. And it's up to us as a society to push back on that influence and do what actually needs to be done.
Yeah, and I certainly would never argue, well, uber did something. Therefore it's totally fine. I think gog you IT, I think it's pretty dark that IT is so common. But to sort of ignore that history to me is just ingenuous, which should average users do who are against this type of bill?
You know, I actually think it's still really important that people do call and email their members of congress about this. And I would even encourage you to call and say, I am not calling from that tiktok push notification. I really care about this because I care about free speech and human rights.
I want you to pass privacy legislation instead of banning tiktok. We have a campaign, my organization fight for the future at dolban tic talk dot com that has that exact messaging. So it's not just saying, hey, congress don't do anything. It's saying past privacy laws if you're concerned about this rather than banning tiktok.
And I think that that is really important because again, there's some of this that is just about political posturing and stokers zao bia and you know kind of saying whatever politicians think is gonna and good on fox news and M S N B C. But there are some amount of IT that is like lawmakers having genuine concerns. And to the extent there are lawmakers with genuine concerns, it's important that we tell them that there are alternatives, that there are things that they can do to address those concerns, but that banning tiktok is not one of them.
So I would encourage everyone to write an email, their senators since this is now really a senate issue um and tell them to pass a privacy long instead of banning tiktok. The more they hear from people, IT does matter. I know sometimes that sounds IT feels like they're just ignoring you.
They never listen. But I can tell you that congressional staffers, when their phones starts ringing off the hook, IT does make a difference. IT does give them pause. IT may not always translate into what their boss says on T, V, but IT does have an impact on how they end up voting, or whether the legislation even goes to the floor.
The more that particularly chucked humor and a majority leader gets the sense that this is controversial and would be a bad look, the less likely he is to move IT forward. I could very much see a scenario. They just kind of decide, yeah, we will keep talking about this tiktok thing, but we're just going to kind of like hope that people forget about IT and never bring into the floor.
I wouldn't be surprised if that happens. But if people don't speak out, we could end up in a really uh, dangerous situation here. And I could see an environment where they sort of accidentally actually succeed in banning tiktok. And the political consequences of that could be really dire.
I think a lot of the conversations around this APP in the way that people have talked about china, and i'm thinking of when tiktok CEO was held in front of congress and was repeatedly asked if he was an agent of the chinese communist party despite the fact that he is a portion and served in his singapore.
an you have been a member of the chinese communist party said at that.
i'm single point. no.
Have you ever been associated or affiliated with the chinese communist?
No idea again at singapore.
IT just makes the seem like a lot of this stuff is motivated by zahoor. A how much of a world do you think that's playing in the way that these conversations are happening?
I think IT plays a huge role, and I think it's unserious to pretend that IT doesn't right, like there are legitimate concerns and they can be separated from this kind of generalized zenos phobia and anti chinese, anti asian sentiment. But it's just foolish and ridiculous to pretend that that's not a huge factor that is animating this attack on tiktok. And let's be real that it's not just republicans.
There are unfortunately many democrats that are happy to lean into those types of xenophobic and anti asian narratives so that they can, again, kind of be one using their republican opponents on who's tougher on china. And look, you, I in an anti authoritarian, I care a lot about civil liberties and civil rights. I have a lot of concerns about the chinese government and their policies, just like I have a lot of concerns about those other governments and their policies.
So this doesn't mean you can't criticize the chinese government or that you can't raise concerns about the chinese government's very small stake in bite dance, which has a state in tiktok. But there are ways to do that without leaning into these xenophobic and anti asian narratives. But unfortunately, that's not what lawmakers have been doing.
They're very much pouring gasoline on those types of flames. And we should be honest about the fact that, that has deadly consequences. We know there has been a massive optic and anti asian hate crimes um here in the united states over the last number of years as more and more lawmakers have leaned into this type of retaliation. And we should be honest about the fact that folks that are kind of jumping on this bandwagon of let's ban tiktok because china are either knowingly or or unwillingly helping pour gasoline on those flames. And I could really have terrible consequences for some really vulnerable communities here in the us.
And around the world. We are talking about corporate lobbying. And I just think back to the story my colleague, drew harwell, and I did a year to ago about meta hiring this republican political firm to go out and smear tiktok in local news across the country, which they were able to do quite successfully.
We know that they are one of the biggest lobby ers in dc. Political reported the data spent many other companies, most other tech companies in terms of lobbying dollars. What role is meet up playing in all of this? Because they love to say what we haven't actually asked for an outright, but I can imagine what else this type of lobbying would lead to.
absolutely. I mean, Better has been incredibly aggressive at trying to attain total monopoly status. Their mo has been the either by or tried to kill off any competitor that comes along that poses a meaningful chAllenge to their dominance. And they've absolutely ban behind some of the sentiment attacks on tiktok.
I just saw on TV the other day on the head of the chAmber progress, which is one of the sort of lobbying front groups that works for meta and other big tech companies coming out in support of this bill that would ban tiktok even though they push back against basically every other type of regulation that could actually meaningly address this issue, like anti trust laws, for example. And so again, that really just exposes um the fact that this is not really about addressing concerns. It's about entrenching us dominance and Frankly, IT could lead to a world where we have an even more concentrated tech market in the U.
S. Which would be insane and again exposes some of the hypocras y here. Joe biden has been very outspoken about how there's too much power in the hands of these big corporations, and we should break them up and you pass anti trust reforms and take on big tech.
And in the meantime, he's basically saying he's going to sign a bill that would kill off one of facebook s biggest competitors and lead to even less choice and less options for U. S. Consumers who wanted find a place online to express themselves.
And a huge reason why musically was forced to sell to bite dance in two and seventeen is because I was having an increasingly difficult going up against meta. An instagram musically was being run dry by instagram, who was poaching all of musics top talent clothing, a lot of their video features, and musically at that time did not have the resources to compete with metal part. That is part of the reason it's all to such a big company.
And you know, as the while three journal reported, tiktok spent a billion dollars in APP downside marketing. Ting, just to sort of get that initial traction and boost after the rebrand in twenty eighteen. So that is the level of resources that you have to have to go up against these tech giants. And I think it's quite telling that the only APP that can even remotely give meta and google run for their money has to be backed by another giant multibillion dollar to car because that's the level of resources that you need to compete with this duly well.
what's even funny or two is that, you know, tiktok format of the short form videos is not actually brand new. But some of you maybe all enough to remember of vine, right, which was basically killed off by meta when they revoked their A P. I.
Access to intentionally crush a competitor, right? And so we could have had a american owned version of tiktok, as apparently lawmakers say they want. But because we have no meaningful anti monopoly protections here in the U.
S, we allowed matter to kill off what could have become the U. S. Version of tiktok.
And so I think again, that just exposes that, like these discussions are not very serious right now that there are real measures we can take to address the concerns we have about the current social media ecosystem. That's not what being talked about in washington, D. C. Right now. Unfortunately.
I think that is such a good point about vine. And I did a lot of reporting on instagram aggressive moves to crush wine court, their talents, still all of their video features. That was wild.
I evan, well, thank you so much for chatting with us today. I really appreciate you taking your time. Where can people follow the work that you're doing?
You can follow me on twitter, blue guy masted on instagram um just by my name evrard E V A N G R E E R um and then go to fight for the future dot org, which is the organization I help run. And you can learn about our various campaigns protecting people's basic rights in the digital age. Thanks, seven. Thank you.
When we come back, we are going to find out why shrimp jesus has taken over facebook and more. Support for the show comes from cavo you're building a business cavo helps you grow IT clios A I powered marketing platform puts all your customer data list, email s ms in analytics in one place with clavo tend fish bee on fishwife delivers real time, personalized experiences that keeps their customers hocked. They've grown seventy times revenue in just four years with cabo. Now that scale, visit K L A V I Y O dot com to learn how brand like fish wife build smarter digital relationships with clivia.
Support for the verge cast comes from the home deep boo, hey, it's almost the holidays. And whether you're planning to travel or host, it's always good to have that extra layer of safety, security to help ease your mind. And now with help from the hog deepo, you can stay connected and protected with the convenience of smart home security products. The home depot offers a wide selection of products that afford you easy control and automation home with top smart home brands like ring, google wise and more.
From smart cameras with four case surveilLance to doorbells that can be Operated from your smart phone, the home deep boo has at all, whether you an expert or new, to smart homes tech, the home deepo can help you find what works for you and your home, visit the home deepo online or in store, and purchase your smart home products to give some piece of mind this holiday season because smart home start at the home debo support for the show comes from service. Now the AI platform for business transformation, you've heard the big hype around A I, and the truth is A I is only as powerful as the platform is built into service. Now is the platform that puts A I to work for people across your business, removing friction and frustration for your employees, super charging productivity for developers, providing intelligent tools for your service agent to make customers happier, all builds into a single platform you can use right now.
And that's why the world works with service now. Visit service now. Dcom splash A I for people to learn more.
Welcome back. I'm here with my show runs back back, and we're going to run through some stories from the week.
right? Hey, what to do? IT?
I put one hundred people inside of a giant circle, and whoever leaves the circle last went five hundred thousand dollars. What have you touched the red line? It's me over.
I read a story about this this week, but mr. B struck a deal with amazon M, G, M to produce a massive reality T, V, competition show. This is pretty big news because it's Jimmy Donaldson's first foray into traditional entertainment.
The show is going to be called beast games, and no feature a thousand contestants competing for a five million dollar cash payout, which is actually the biggest prize offered in T. V history. The hollywood reporter said that amazon outbid at least one other major streaming service to land the deal.
This business has become the most subscribe to individual youtube in recent years. And he is a massive of children. He's really known for these outrageous stance, like bearing himself alive or recreating the show squid game as this reality TV style competition. I think this is a really notable moment for entertainment industry because IT shows how these streaming platforms are willing to pay a lot of money to court these big online content creators in an effort to absorbs some of their audience.
I think what remains to be seen is whether Jimmy Donald, since audience will actually hop over and watched the show on amazon, there has been a lot of other efforts to take internet talent and move them into more traditional forms of entertainment, mostly linear, TV or traditional movies. And that has always flopped, he said. His channel between makes between six hundred million and seven hundred million dollars a year, and he reinvest most of that back into his stunts, building his channel in his media empire even more so. Who knows? I did that him is not give him exactly the same production budget as usually has but maybe know they're n investing quite a lot in him and i'm sure they want the show to be successful.
Amazon famously spends a lot of money on their shows and really we does a poor job of promoting them A I haven't seen them with any like break out reality or game shows. A lot of their scripted stuff has has just not done that well if they spent like a billion dollars on floor the rings and you just didn't really make a make a splash so I think a lot of stuff, ten to get buried on amazon.
Netflix has had quite a bit of success with reality shows, game shows, stuff like that. Seems like IT probably would have been a Better fit for him. Audience wise. I'm sure amazon outbid whoever they were up against. But you know, the thing that happens over and over again is when your audiences is in one place, it's really hard to get them to another place.
But he's also not stopping production on youtube, so he's gona continue to post on youtube throughout this deal. And so yeah, I just remains to be seen whether the audience will hop over and also to watching I was on that said I mean other other children shows have had success a coco melon um jumped over its more of us part of cartoon children's series and mystery by audience is also children so you know if you can clap your child down in front of the TV and turn on the mr. Beast game show for an hour and distract them.
Maybe I know I do feel like every parent I know has amazon. Like if you have kids, you probably have an amazon subscription. So it's it's all right. Therefore, you potentially.
if you've been on facebook at all recently, you might have noticed that more and more A I generated images are creeping into your feed. These images can be strange, bizarre. Sometimes they're very beautiful and they're usually posted by anonymous ly run pages.
But since last week, one specific type of image has become pervasive, and that is A I generated portraits of jesus crist made out of live shrimp. These pictures are really crazy and slightly grow to task. And we've been generating a massive amount of likes and shares every single time they're posted.
Shrip jesus is actually just the latest engagement hack by the mei types of pages doing, let's call the engagement farming. Basically, they are posting something so bad and crazy and absurd that IT makes people stop, comment or share. This then pushes that pages reach up and allows them to get other content more easily into your feet.
After they boost their rich with shrimp cheese s, they started pushing other low quality content into your feet, like fake news websites full of google ads, or they try to sell you low quality products. This is how they effectively monetize. So when you see these really weird AI generated images, all lover, you might just think that they're fun or weird are being shared all in good fun. This is all actually part of a big money making scheme is increasingly common on facebook.
Honestly, I get the rubber necker approach to this like you're cruising through facebook and then you just halt and you share or you comment what the fuck is is going on. Seeing jesus as a shrimp is IT IT is uncomfortable to look at this image. Yeah, it's quite terrifying.
I think scammers are always ahead of the game when IT comes to what performs online. I've seen a lot of other AI character driven pages as well on facebook, which are essentially anonymous ly run pages that prompted to be a specific person.
I saw one woman saying i'm one hundred and twenty one year old Baker and I love to bake these peachy confections and it's just A I generated images of this old woman and various types of cakes yeah and this whole facebook page is extensively supposed to be run by this hundred and twenty one year old women, which I think would make her the oldest woman in the world. And and it's IT looks so obviously fake but the comments on the post make IT seem like I don't even think people really care. I'm currently reporting on a similar foment on on instagram. So my story will be out soon, but I really do think that we're just seeing more and more of this A I engagement bit all over .
internet yeah .
bom bate also happening on facebook. Meta redesigned aspects of the APP to emphasize the poke button again for people that don't remember poke. Was this really popular feature back in the odds where you could really just send little pokes to people with just you'd just got a little message saying, I poke to you or so and so poke to you.
This redesign apparently works because there's been a thirteen next jump in use of the future. I think this is just facebook trying to beat people into engaging on the APP in any way that they can. I think there is tons of nostalgia for the ots, especially among millennial nosti.
A stuff plays really well. This is a feature that a lot of mEllen's als associate with their youth back when we had facebook in college, and would poke each other and things in our dorm men. So I think this is kind of A A naked play for engagement zakaria posted after they announced the article the future that, quote, natures healing.
I don't know why we need this. I don't use facebook anymore, so it's not for me, but I don't know why we need this. And IT IT just feels like an excuse for more notifications. And i'm just like pretty anti notification at this.
Me too, I have all my notifications turned off.
Same linked in which .
recently surpassed a billion users and is primarily known as a place to find. Your next job is now trying to court gamers and an effort to boost time on the platform they're rolling out in APP games. The company is testing three puzzle type games so far, and I think this move is really smart because that taps into the puzzle mania that helped other platforms like the new times boost engagement with things like world to and connections.
I know people that play every day facebook also launched farm ville back in two thousand nine, and time spent on the platform skyrocket. I think a lot of these social media companies of integrative gaming aspects over the years with quite positive results. It's also worth noting that the companies owe by microsoft, a gaming giant that made over seven billion dollars last quarter in gaming alone. So this just seems like smart synergy. And if people can spend a little bit more time on linked in playing word games or whatever, that's good for the company.
Yeah, I totally get why lincoln would want to do this and why IT makes business sense. But if you're spending a ton of time on linton playing games, I don't think you're using linton correctly. You're probably not finding that new job. You I thought .
really what linked in any I mean, linked is a pretty robust social network. People spend a lot of time on their learning and talking with people and sharing news. Since twitter declined, linked in has become a huge hub for news and information.
People go there in the morning. You check in on your link, see what your connections are up to. It's not only looking for work, obviously, that sort of with initial point of the platform, but I do think in sort of just this robust professional networking platform now yeah.
I i've had linked in probably twelve years. I don't think i've ever had a shreds of fun on that platform and I think is useful. I think it's like, super useful. And yeah, I sociate with games.
I mean, I think it's smart because IT keeps you engaged. Yeah, you might be on linked in networking, chatting, sending some messages, waiting for some messages to come through and want to play across the word or puzzle or something. You know, I think that makes sense. As you mentioned, that sound always the most entertaining platform. Microsoft has a lot of taking gaming, and this make sense.
Yeah, this reminds me of a tweet I saw that was like the new york times. You mean that place where I play my little games?
Like maybe .
that's linked in future?
All right, that's the show. If you like this episode, give us a rating and review on apple podcast, spotify or wherever you listen. Power user is produced by travis larch c and jelani Carter.
We were mixed in masters by Brendan mcfly. Our video producer is Brandon keer. You can watch full episodes on my youtube channel at tailors.
Our executive producers are zack mac and a shot kwa power user is part of the vox media podcast network. Will be back next week. See you then.
Support for this episode de comes from A W S. A W S, generate A A, I gives you the tools to power your business forward with the security and speed of the world's most experienced club. Hey, it's lee.
From decoder with new IP top. We spent a lot of time talking about some of the most important people in taking business about what they're putting resources to and why they think it's so critical for the future. That's why we're doing this special series diving into some of the most unique ways companies are spending money today.
For instance, what does that mean to start buying and using A I at work? How much is that costing companies? What part are they buying? And most importantly, what are they doing with IT and of course, podcasts? Yes, the thing you're listening to right now, well, it's increasingly being produced directly by companies like venture capital firms, investment funds and a new crop of creators who one day want to be investors themselves.
And what is actually going on with this acquisition this year, especially in the A I space, why are so many big players in tech deciding not to acquire and instead license can hire away co founders? The answer, IT turns out, is a lot more complicated than that seems. You'll hear all that and more this month. I'm decoder with the lie presented by strike. You can listen to the coder whatever you get your podcast.