The music industry’s AI fight
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Hello, everyone in her chest, the flagship podcast of bb l jersey. If that one track needs a podcast, we and talk about an hour this week, an hour next week, minute by minute.

It's actually fun n because then we get to spend the whole episode debating whether bb l jersey can be our theme song legally. Now we've said that it's perfect.

We're going to do a lot of fair use on the show today. Yes, it's coming. Hi, i'm your friend in I, David pierce. Here.

alex cranes .

is on a break, but for our first segment, charly hearting from switched on pop the story as hey guys, thanks for having me. We have a lot of AI music copyright to talk about. There's some lawsuits. It's always drake involved. Just seems to be the way of the world.

There is something in your phone events coming that just got announced shock about there are new party speakers from multiple years that's very important to me and you living on we we got a full show before, before the fourth of july. This is america's technology podcast. But before we begin, have to issue a correction. There are some words that I only read and I never say out loud um which .

there are lots of other .

words on of them I was I was a small narry child in the middle wisconsin to read a lot of books that the other children was gone so are not interested in this got just a whole universe of vocabulary. Ds.

what is like your main one from a new york kid that you you were like twenty six in all of this? I feel like commute is like the classic of the time, right? We're like half the people in the world group thinking IT was chaMilly on for me. He was learning that her mienne name is her mian I, and not her mean, as I told her good. However, many books I read before I saw the movies, did you get have these that you grew up with?

I so I so don't know whether it's jerks or dance, and I don't want .

to find up fair ough 来。

I don't and I don't know if that means a .

lot or not enough on switch on hope. We have an ongoing uncertainty ty, about whether IT is image or mad. Can we have been written many emails that it's both. And so we've refused to .

use the word from manana niche in niche, very confusing also have been told it's both. So there's .

a lot .

of these yeah one of them in recent times is risk five, which is, I would say, not a thing that comes up in casual conversation for even the people who are working on risk five. Walk her around the office saying, rescued. I said I was risk with the other day, right? sorry.

I think this is your correction. You got one on me. apologize. I don't know what kind of slash shot nds are reading IT out loud. I mean, you're my people in your listings and you not like we have a bond here. You're listening to a podcast in which the world is set out loud and you the audience know that i've mispronounced there's something special there, Prices I want to protect IT. I'm just saying we are the only people who know.

How do you know they're right .

and that you aren't now also the tion. Am I being gas?

And also like to posit that with all roman numerals, the the letter and the number are both correct. Like when the iphone ten came out and IT was the iphone x, IT was the iphone X. I don't care what anyone said.

I got a lot of craft for that. And IT was the iphone x, because I was IT was the iphone. And then the letter x, you call whatever you want. I I submit that both should be allowed at all times.

So I would I support this in the theory, super bol, unless it's more than one letter, then one of the super able, except like they they were quite for IT yeah they did that's your moment. But I was one of those flash shot nerds who was like its miracle was ten. So i'm sorry, like I you know .

even though it's not it's so sex we anyway.

that's your correction. I'm just telling you we share as a group is special and i'm sorry that I pushed the boundary of IT, but i'm also saying no one says these words help, just not think that that and I feel nothing .

is entered the chat.

What is that? What is X E, X in numbers?

IT isn't a real one.

is in c and roman neural.

C is one hundred. So that would be a hundred. That would be at ninety and .

then ten more and 不作。

It's just .

truly see IT, I don't know, work. Speaking of things about a math ai, it's really good. It's good.

Big week in the AI landscape, a weird week for me, emotional right in the second, the major label s have sued two AI companies that you may may not have heard of, ud, o and suno. These are classic silly names. We should all be proud.

There are music companies, are music companies. Udi is the company whose tool was used to make. B, B, L, jersey will charly explain that entire chain events.

And an in soo has a deal with microsoft. It's an copilot, and you can ask you to join music. And copilot, would you train an AI tool to make music? You might ask, as did the lawyers at the recording industry association, america.

And the answer is you just put a bunch of music in them and you train the model on a bunch of music, including what appears to be a remarkable amount of the recording industry, y's music, not just music that's out the world. The companies are suit. There's a lawsuit.

The R A W is mad. The R A W is already mad. They say that they asked the companies what was used to train the models. The companies the suno deflected and said their training data was confidential, business information fine video made the same statements.

And then sono also said why our stuff is transformative and design to generate completely new outputs, not memorized in regards shape pro existing content. We will get to that in the second, because that is actually very funny claim based on what you can do. There are the way to attracts and loss, of which we will listen to IT straighforward bly can just make john y be good in a song called prince in queen, which is deeply clear. Uh, there is a part of this where these companies knew that what they were doing was training on corporate, ate their work and they kind of assumed that they would get away with, or at least feel like pay the money and move on.

Can I go can I ask a very possibly dumb framing question about this um because I I want to we're going to get in the weeds of like a very specific music case.

But a lot of what users describe the sort of basic outlines of like how these companies trained their data and what they're being accused of doing and whose mad feels identical to me, to every other conversation we've had about the A I model, right? IT seems to me that if you change, uh, john y be good and sono to the new ork times and ChatGPT, we're functions talking about the same pic. So like I wanted get into the deep into this in in we are ways. But like is there's something different about the fact that were doing this music then the fact the way we've been doing this with like the web .

for the last years, yes. And it's that the music industry is organized and aggressive when IT comes to protecting its right.

So the difference is lawyers.

Difference is layers. And also history of music in the internet. Is lawyers like the reason i'm so conflicted about this is that I went and became a corporate layer because masta came out when I was in college and I was radical zed because I ve ve ve ever stupid, which is what should happen when software comes out when you're in college.

I'm assuming there some kids out there today who are radicalized by the presence of new offers. Um but that wouldn't was for me was named cha. I went off me came a corporate.

I sucked at IT. I don't ever want anyone to think I was good at this as a practice attorney. I was garbage. But the thing I did was I worked at a lot from the defended other college is who got sued for using kozak against the R I. And the r was suing college kids and actually suing the universities to get the I P address of the college kids on their networks. We're using the tools and then identifying the collection.

and soon the collections. IT was my romance computer.

IT wasn't me. I swear. This is like a right. That's a just a lot to like the universe caving and not protecting this is all this stuff is happening and they are running this program, breaking aven. They just wanted five thousand or settings so ever want to be scared and some doing IT and they want that that worked sort of now were back to the right. But like um the movie industry is not quite as good.

It's nothing sees the music going to show us and they grand that program to kind of shut IT down and chill maps' and grocer ing because all on all the other ones they ran gross all the up to the same court. That decision is twenty years old. Now the are the livers structure.

And great. Then they did the itn store and they got deals with Steve jobs and the other music stores. And then they thought to find something is contribute.

And all along the way, they have an extraordinary digits and extraordinary protective of the copyright. Tes, because people have an emotional connection to music that they can trade up. This is in a way that even holloway wood doesn't like.

When disney like, we must protect the copyright to the adventurous people are like, like, right in a way that the music industry, when it's like you're stealing music, you are making IT so artist don't get paid. There's an emotional resonance that our human tends to have. Try them.

Curious how how you see that changing over time. But they've been good at IT and they've run the playbook over and over over again. Music also closed ecosystem of like for big companies.

And so you see things like interrelation, where an artist uses a bit of a song from other artists and fans get mad and then writing credits get distributed and money flows inside of a close ecosystem. None of that is true about the wet. None of that is true about the media.

So if you are like our writer, the media company, nothing like no one cares like. There's not some big apparatus designed to make IT is seem like your work is emotionally resonant and should be protected in with the music industry has. So I think that's a huge difference here. The other difference in this is where I really try very curious for your take here is that the outputs of these systems are just the songs right in there.

The last suits are about training, right? All copyright lawsuit, all copy is dumb, like it's a done legal system because if they just regulates copies and so you made a copy to do this thing and you didn't have the permission to do the thing with the copy that you made, so copy infringement, weird. All computers do is make copies.

We've talked about this some attention. The so they're not talking about the outputs, but I think the outputs are so convincing, like in order to get to the thing can just make john's be good. IT is obvious that you made a copy of john y to go try what you think I feel like.

The music industry is the one place that copyright becomes part of public conversation in a very frequent way. People talk about when forel is borrowing from marven. Gay people talk about when theory to heaven might might have been copied by another song.

People constantly or debating social media. Hey, you kind of sound like you borrows the other person's thing. They should get a credit on IT.

There's no thing in journalism or someone's like, hey, you know, nearly kind of use someone else's text. Maybe we should give David some extra credit on that piece that I play. I'm accusing you. And do you know all this is happy?

I don't think recently me .

that does that. I had a god mode google dog success, and I just lived everybody's copy last right there.

Just no other creative industry that where there is this like level of actual infringement that happens that then there is this internal uh, litigious system where these major players are constantly trading credits back and forth and the public is in on IT often debating whether or not there the artist that they stand is making original work. This is a part of popular discourse that happens in music. So it's really different when the music industry is going after AI. Then if the new york times is because i've just never been in a circumstances where i'm talking about that article was completely lifted from the other article, but we constantly talk about is so so writing their own songs.

right? I'll give you A A done example from movies. The movie the dark night is basically an interpretation of the movie heat for the batman, right?

Like many, the shots of the same, Christopher and no one is out there being like, heat is the greatest comment robber's movie ever made. Like, I just wanted to make heat. But with batman, even you like watch both movies.

Like, oh, shit. Like, do just make heat with batman and that's great. And I think everyone is like, this is the best.

Like, this is so cool and then you get to miley cyrus writing flowers which delivery just reference britto mars, bno mars and people like, should you have to pay brand of mars ince? Like, like, why? Like, the Melody aren't like, she's just saying some of the same words.

yeah. yes. But the expectation is there should be some economic exchange of value.

I I would think that that the existence of that exchange of value is also how you get to something like that straight, where it's it's not just everybody sort of yelling and then nothing that happens is that we actually have a system by which this gets solved, right? Where where we have people get song writing credits and then they get paid for IT. And there's like the music industry has built ways for all of this to work. And like you said, is very good at picking fights with those who do not play inside of that system.

And so like now, i'm just thinking, okay, the difference between the music industry and um the the others who are fighting against OpenAI and others like just groups of authors or whatever, is not only does the music industry have a system by which IT understands how everybody is supposed to get paid, that has existed for a long time and everybody kind of sort of understands, but also is able to martial that whole system against anyone who wants to exist outside of that. And part of what we've been staying forever is that all the money is on the side of the A I companies like who who is going to be able to run a lawsuit against google all the way to the end. Uh, and they're probably aren't that many creative industries other than the music industry that might .

be able to do IT you've done before. One major concession, we wouldn't have content idea, if not for music labels going after youtube.

And the music has have gone up for you too, but universal. This is what drake gets involved. Fake drake that we've talked about anthy in the show shed out a laser bang, a song that has been just aggressively censored from every major platform. Boy, is tiktok not want electronic .

music about long. So about that record labels like you .

want to talk about government censorship? Yeah, right? The chinese government is like, no bongs for american tees. Just saying in IT, the piece of that puzzle is super interesting to me is universal was mad about matric. They went to spotify, apple.

They said don't have, don't have the song in spite of an apple control, the catalogues and their music services they could put down. Youtube is open access, anyone can not put anything. And then there is continuity.

And they have these other copyright managing systems on youtube. But it's not the same catalog control where you can just delete the song, the way that spotify, apple music just delete the song, I to come with the other system. And youtube did give the concessions, right? They put out a list of like A I principles they would work on about safety, about the solar stuff.

And a lot of IT was we're gona work directly with universal rest the music industry to figure out what tools are available and what tools aren't and even to allow some creators to like do some of this AI music generation because we think it's cool and then obviously will figure how to pay them if this is implicit. If you're like co announcing that tool with universal music, the universal music is gona get paid like the heat death of the universe could occur and losing ranged to see of the universal music would get paid like he is good at IT. Yes, these two companies did not do that.

There's a quote from one of the vcs in suno rolling stone profile from march. He just says rolling stone, if we had deals to the labels when the company that started, I I wouldn't have invested in IT. I think they needed to make this product .

without the constraints.

Wild thing to say out loud.

a thing to say out, said the quiet thing about because behind all of this, they haven't ever really quite publicly admitted that they are using copy at work. They've talked around that in every way they possibly can without denying IT. And this is sort of like the big, yeah, this is, this is the smoking gun, right?

And then the other smoking gun, and this is publisher listening to some, this music is the output of the models themselves, which is, I been at what's listen to IT. And we can talk about David.

take a right. okay? I have I have brought some sound, uh, thank you to Andrew, liam, forgetting all of this together.

Uh, we have three examples, and I I will just roll through all three. Stop me when you have feelings about this. Uh, the first thing would you is a, this is just titled real chuck berry. So just listen to this worse. Well.

and this is all there is no copyright infringing intended right you to, 各位。

是 我家 的 狗狗。

That's enough, stopped before the robot sensors arrived.

great.

If you don't know that someone, go watch back to the future. Incredible movie that you should just watch and to, like, stop, go get cultured.

John y be good. Chuck berry cropping role.

yeah. And now we have a song from udi, which is not called john y be good, but .

just listen. Go, go 那 裡。 Go, go. I.

Mean, so that one is an a copy infringement of science face? yes. Are the work yeah uh.

okay.

So that's one. A next .

we have I hard a professor .

of music and why you I believe right? Yes, right. professor. Let's say you didn't have john y good in the training data, but then you had the entire architecture of rocks and role that is built on join. And could you back your way into joy because monkeys and .

typed riders and shakespeare, right like that.

you don't need do you need the seed Crystal when you have the whole diamond mine of rocks and roll?

It's a really good question because of you look at this era of music where R, N B, rock and roll, because our sort of like rockaby are all kind of one entity. The music is drawing on twelve bar blues, a very standard songs structure. They're often in the same keys that play well on guitar a they're using a lot of the kind of guitar a lix.

They're mostly using patton's scales. They're using a lot of the same language. And you might think, yeah, you could just write back into that, but the precise raths, the exact words, let's be clear, the copy is worse.

IT does not sound nearly as good as the real jo B2Be goo d. You could never get to that same place without having heard that. I ny, be good.

I feel confident. And if these two songs, one being a real song and the other being nobody owns the copyright and it's made by N. A, I, if if there were a copyright case made against the copy, IT would definitively lose.

I, I have the many of these cases, many of these music copyright cases are not clear. There are often fought over eight notes, sometimes six notes, sometimes a general fiel in the case of blurred lines. And I got to give IT up. This is a direct copy of the rythm and the words and most Melody. So no, you have to have heard this song in order to 呃 make a john good twice。

If you want more on eight notes and how complicated IT is, try that. I did an entire episode .

right next up we have James Brown first, real James Brown.

I will. I feel good. And another one where .

if you're .

listing the vercheres you never had, like I don't know you doing, you go this in the switch of you .

is very bad school and .

now we have AI James Brown feel good, 是 白色。 I feel good. I knew that I would know so so I actually think it's very fun because this is .

a little it's like a little tiny bit further away from IT in the way that the first one just is Johnson be good, but worse. This one is like one tiny here. This is another away from being just the thing.

This is a large band with pretention whatever it's like, play, just play IT the way that can you stop? IT right? Like we get IT you thought you had something? I have one question of this, and it's actually for the same about, I be good. The way these models work right is you and just a bunch of data into them, they set a bunch of model weight and then they like statistically make the next bit right. They're just sort of like assembling the thing around the prompt, which means they're kinder, just assembling ones and zeroes to make a sound wave here, which is pretty wild.

If you think about IT like that makes sense with words, right? What is statistically the next word in the sentence around this prompt, when you get to like what are the ones in areas of a sound file and you get to statistically here, the next ones and zero, that's pretty weird. It's actually pretty weird way to make an audio recording.

And with the thing that are striping about these, this one in particular, but the other one a little bit, the instruments don't sound real at all to me, those horns sense. So fake, not like synthesized or fake, no, but almost exactly like what you'd expect if you ask the computer to statistically produce one section, like it's almost playing in like to listen to it's so weird. Wow, I feel good.

I knew that I would. You hear I like weird infinite is. 收割。

收割 sound like this weird synthesized thing where the the beginning of the sound of the end of the sound is exactly lined up。 The sound is there's this artifact ting quality to IT. This is like the pop PSA jacket version of sound.

Yes, it's like you got IT close, but all the lines are wrong. Why does he have seven fingers? right?

Statistical approximation of a hand, right, but is expressed as a horn section, which is really weird, like just on its face. And you can people, I could get Better and bubble but like you get to me, you can hear a meaningful difference once you know what you're listening for and it's like, oh, this is a fake insurance it's it's not a fake insurance way. It's synthesizer is a instrument IT just fake like IT doesn't IT doesn't make any sense over the top.

All of all of that right now, I don't know. This is a solvable problem. Imagine a problem, he is, is that everything sounds kind of grainy. There's like this, a top level hss kind of over the entire recording of any AI output.

IT sounds may be equivalent to, uh, new those files that you are not downloading in college, but like the really low bit rate mp three, when mp trees were actually notably worse. Yeah, that's what these sounds like. All of them have this artificial chain on top that sound very low. Fy, yeah. In addition to the artificial instruments.

just as I don't, I can't listen to the song in between days by the cure without mentally inserting the we are compression artifacts. And at the high end, because I listen to a shit. M, P, three, that songs so many times the symbols are are just forever distorted.

There's literally a pluggin and guitar pedal called loss that is made to recreate the sound of early two thousands and b series.

That's so if you need IT.

yeah. So that's the sound. yeah. Tell what the actual music here is.

This would to be, get you like that straight copper in front. This is weird, right? It's like some what do you think?

I think that it's the exact same rhymes. I'd have to look at the note. I think they're quite close. They're the exact they're in a limit. Maybe there are a different key, but they're like the same intervals moving in the same direction at the exact same time. That would almost certainly lose in court.

Uh, if these were eaten, if we should be clear, the A, I, companies are not being sued for the output yeah but these outputs, if you were to try to make a case, I am sure a judge with rule in favor of the James round a state. Because IT is the same line. It's more or less the same like it's an interview of the line. There's slightly different words, but it's the same rothes same Melody that almost always is going to uh.

that and here the output is proof of the input.

They're not suing for the output, but the output seems unusually important here in that respect that it's if if studio is doing the thing that IT claimed to be doing, which is which is transforming stuff into other stuff, um we have a very different kind of fair use case. But reading through the ra is lost. You like the thing they did over and over and over was just go reproduce songs that exist in the world.

Yes, and that's how we're fighting my training like I I went to and pull a bunch of the prompts that they used to get songs they're so funny, they're so funny like to get uh to get the Green day song. And I think that was american canadian. The prompt is pop pink american alternative rock, california two thousand four rob cavo perfect .

in the wait and that produce to petition of american idea.

Yes, amazing. To get my gro by the temptations. IT was my tempting one thousand nine hundred and sixty four girl smokey singing hit fill soul pop got my goal by the temptation. Ah, this one you'll enjoy me like to get all I want for Christmas. You by my I Carry. My prompt is maria Carry, but with the space between each letters so that it's not because IT presumable trading to our hands and aris name ah so it's m space, a space over to the name contemporaries creme, award winning american singer, song writer, remarkable vocal range that produced all in what for business is .

A I mean so proving is IT and set by with the argument in response. So i'm sure we're onna hear because this is the argument opening I made about the times lawsuit was won. No human proms like this in be these prompts. So we are they represent a hack of system which is remarkable and confident. They on how open I replied at the time that that is what these .

companies there is one very good one, uh, that the prompt was create a song by an artist that rims with truth streaming, then produce the Bruce spring dance sung, that's good. So that .

question I asked charly about the do, if you have the entire history of rock and old need the first song, gene truck berry, okay, maybe you don't. Maybe right. Like, I think this third example is the funnest example, because I can't figure how you would get to this without specifically one thing. God.

i'm glad you agree, because I left this for last, for a precisely this reason. So here is, I won't even .

play that.

Here's the real one.

yeah. right. right. everybody. Million times A J, D.

The longest lasting digital career .

that I never expected .

to happen. no. And here, here is the A I, I. I just want to say this was created by a prompt on audio. This is, in theory, a completely synthetically new work .

of art to say the 不来。 it's. So good essenic real music aside.

it's even had a little like vocal rift .

at the end like it's it's derulo like synthetic music. That's your problem.

This one's interesting though because knew you ve talked a lot about the issue that a lightness ss is not copy writable, right? yes. And so there's a question of like if we we're going back to this hypothetical, there is no suit that suing over this, particularly into rilla ref. Someone could just I could say Jason to rilla and a som probably and it's not I can't copy right that.

So you wait. This is weird.

So we have to find the last .

time with the metro metro boom's song. So metro bomb's producer tag was the copy writable expression in a fake right song.

If it's exactly, if it's exactly the recording of the tag though, right, because it's IT. Was the issue was that they actually kept in the sample of the producer tag and then reproducing a recording in copy.

right, that so we can start every episode verge cast .

with me singing, think probably would have a lot of issues and a lot of .

nasty in terms of ways to boost to this podcast profile. After thirteen years, Jason dill, suing us is high on my list.

That's worthless. But this is definitely proves live like you had to have had access. There is no monkeys in the back writing shakeup that ends up on jero IT just doesn't happen. It's not possible.

I don't know. I think if you if you took the worst impulses of the music industry and put them in doing AI, you might produce .

j this once also important though, because everything else we've heard has been written by uh artist pro pyi active nine hundred seventy four and probably also reflect some of maybe who the layers are writing these are you know these cases because um no, we're talking about the cases. Reference Frank sinatra right and to bring and Bruce bring steam right it's brushing .

steam right Carry Green day john y truck berry the early ones are .

all truck berry like the temptation are you getting i'm saying every yeah and and that's actually potentially very vantage ous and knowing the judge and who you might go in front of but then to show that also, they're taking all the latest music as well.

bringing in the judge you heard you.

are you familiar? I want to bring into the courtroom, Jason, to rule.

by the way, no total side. There is an incredible katy autopsies ce about hard cords into little stands and what their stand culture is like.

that I will dig up show. Oh god.

that is truly one of the funnest things I ve ever had. Just because a exists. And b, because kd is good at trinity. Things about that exist.

Have you all tried running .

these problems?

By the way, you yeah you can go to audio and zuno and you can run the prompts that the these laws us are alleging and you don't get the same songs obviously but like if you write make a jazz cornor song about new york paraos voice, you will definitely get it's works. Not sure there's just like this, no hong, but things. And I don't think that, that really is hacking the systems.

It's really easy. The other thing I get a lot, by the way, or random prompt. Hey, that sounds strAngely like crazy town by butterfly. My proud was, actually, I tried to make a rap about an another founder, Thomas.

just crazy town.

Yeah, lazy. Thank you. butterfly.

There's a bank called butterfly that had a song called crazy that would be perfect .

in another universe. So I do, do. I'm sure that is, I tried, I tried, I did try to a hack these systems a little bit.

And I wrote, I want you to write a rap about american founder Thomas jeffson about not throwing away his shot. Naseer, male rapper boom bap. And what I got was basically butifer .

by crazy town, just like total random.

yeah.

I'm sorry to i'm sorry for listening to this. We should.

The body is butterfly by crazy time.

I think it's also a little of who's that long superman, yes, well, who superman .

crept .

night three .

door.

It's got a bit of that. It's just you can so easily here references that are not even the thing that you prompt. And I just I have to say that if right now, if you go to the home page of video, the two most popular tracks are exact sounds likes of eminent and stop dog. So people are doing this like people are trying to make sound of likes.

So the argument from all these companies is, look, training is fair ious. That's the argument for open eye. That's arment for google. That's the argument for tuna and ud o.

The organization of these cases is different because the points are different, right? The times is situated differently than the major labels, people of different emotional relationships with different kinds of work. But this is the argument, like when google eventually goes in, sues, opening up for training on youtube.

The weirdness of that argument is google telling open an eye the training on youtube is not fair. Like that's what's going to happen here. It's all the same argument.

It's all kind of my circle. So google can do IT. It's very used. But soyo cannot do that because it's not very used.

This this is the track the industry .

has set for itself.

There are yeah, it's it's all the same VC in all different directions. The music.

sure.

there's that line. Now it's like you have to be perfect every time and I just have to get through once. Yeah, it's like, I remember exactly. Is that what's like the hacker create? right?

Like you have to stop me every time. All I have to do is I have just have to get through once .

and that is that feels like I copyright situation for A I right now. This is a house of cards. And maybe, maybe the times are in, maybe the record labels all in may, maybe Sarah silverman will in, like there are so many of these, maybe google and open.

I reach an agreement about training on youtube, and then a bunch of youtube creator, sue, and maybe they win. Like you can just game IT out a hundred different ways. At some point someone is going to win to loss IT. This is training, is not, are use? yeah.

The fair use argument here, I feel like, is notable. I feel like quite different than what the new york times can claim because part of fair use is, for example, of the effect on the a potential market, right? And with near times, they're going to have to argue, well, you're using our articles and other people are taking that in creating text and putting IT and other suda journalistic sites, right?

I'm pretty sure that time is suing for both the output in the training I see OK. So I think these cases are all different. This what I mean, like the strategy for one doesn't work for all of them in the same way.

right? In the case of music, the marketplace argument like does is that going to affect the marketplace is I think they have a very strong argument here. I think that I I have a very strong argument.

They're basically saying to o nuda, you are charging users money to make songs that you are allowing them to upload to the exact same place where we also have all of our songs, just part of the apple music center. And so you are actually changing the marketplace for music having used all of this output. But is that is that not part of the argument you're saying?

I I think we have to find out how that shakes out, right? Like I don't know. They got to get get assigned to judge, right? Like right now, what they have done as they put out a complaint in the press is that hasn't been a replied to that complaint, an answer they having been assigned a judge like they haven't done any discover where we just don't know a bunch stuff and we should they don't know where are they are going to put their focus.

But that part where copyright laws just about making copies in the history of computing, every single copy is been radiated down to a, again, I bring up, I think I bring up. Every time M, A, I verses picks us, you look IT up. This is R, U, A third party software seller allowed to load software into a computer's memory without permission.

Crazy, a crazy car case. Can you put a disc in a computer and loads software from the dish thark drive without my permission? Got litigated and they lost.

Crazy and they lost. And then we had to get all through cashing our femoral copies on your I S P S. Network equipment, or those copies that should be litigated. This is comprized. It's dumb, like this is a very dumb, rational, but IT litigate the creation copies. So here it's, did you have permission to make a copy to train your model of all these songs in every time we didn't have permission? By the way, we want to start tory maximum of one hundred and fifty thousand dollars.

which is generally end up being a pretend .

that of is gonna 点 than the U。 S.

GDP. Yeah, it's a craze. Did you have permission to copy every song in the world? And if you didn't, every song in the world times on every as an notice sting.

for i'm going to .

run this if you didn't have that permission. Can we do an analysis that says that use as fairness, right? So various is what's called in a formative defense to cope infringement where you admit IT, like I did, I did IT, but under the other rationale, ts, that's fine.

And so that's like the winding path here is, well, first, they won't even cope to having made the copies, which is why the music industry is putting out what you're just join to be good, like you can't output johna good and must you copy johna be good on on the front, right? okay. So first we had to get them, the cop to making the copies at all, which the clean is preparatory business information suck.

Then IT was that copy allowed the obviously in information. This is why the analysts, and then and then it's is IT very use. And then we run the analysis. And the analysis is like the purpose and character, is the amount of the use, the nature of these, the in the last factor is affect on the market, right? On the output side, I think the market argument .

is really strong. So the question is doesn't case this is I actually don't understand me, you can explain with your corporate a lot degree, is there like some wall between the input and the output in this argument that says, well.

there's no marking emerging. It's like this the hands it's the hands are up. I'm just that emerging right now.

I don't know because because I was trying to say, oh well, if there's a clear change in the marketplace, four songs, which are all outputs but IT sounds like we do t know what the responses are going to be. But they could say, well, there isn't currently a marketplace for training data in this kind of and so it's not affecting that marketplace.

But if you there will never be a market if just set the rate in zero, right? right? So if you're like, I want really high quality music from my high quality music AI program, i'm going to go pay a bunch of artists.

But then these guys come along and steal IT, but you've ve ve actually prettily destroy the market. You've never sure allow that market to set some rates. And i've heard from publishers are taking the deals with the open I disclosure rocks me has content license in deal with the open eye.

I've heard from other publishers, not our company, that one of the reasons they ve taken these deals is to create that market, right? So the times can go to court and say, this has an effect. The market, look at this market, look at the money that's moving around.

And so some of these publishers are playing kind of a strategic game, say we should create a market to help that factor alone. I think it's fascinating, but I don't think that the A I company, I think they thought they could just buy forgiveness. And what's crazy to me is when I was naster, or youtube or google search, even buying forgiveness worked because people like to the companies, they like to the products, they like the experiences they were having. And here people, I mean, i'm come up if you're listened to and you have a very different view, this let me know, but our audience is pretty loud with us that they don't like these companies and they don't they perceive this as a moral problem. And I I think that's just a very different position for them all to be in.

which brings us to your moral quandary. Seems like you flip sides from twenty years ago.

Yes, the idea that i'm sitting here being like the r as a point is crazy like as bananas and Sarah, john and I have like all day everyday, like sacking. Like who have we become? You know, this is like a horse e theory of corporate law politics.

It's weird, man. And I I think one of the pieces of the puzzle, and i'm curious if you see this in the music in the street itself, truly, one of the pieces of the puzzle here is that the internet just blew the bottom out of the music industry. There's no there's no way to be like a middle class musician anymore.

There's no guaranteed way to make money here like you're playing the same algorithm me as everyone else. You will be holding into some labels, you don't have any powers and individual encies platforms. So now the next group of people who come and taking your work for free and is going to extract value from you will. Sure, like the enemy of my enemy is my friend is kind of a vibe. But I wondering if you see that reflect to the actual music industry.

Absolutely, the public perception here is so different than what was happening back in an abstract. Back in the astra era, the labels were enemy number one. Selling out to label s was was a big new.

They were the worst players today. I actually think they're one a very effective job of using their proxy, spotify. And spotify y be the enemy. And I was like SONY music, or like, or OMG like they law.

They not, there are not the top of conversation of who's really screw in who now they basically help set the rates of what gets get out in streaming, and it's the distributors now that really are taking all the heat. So they're actually in a Better, I think, place of public perception in terms of within the music industry. Um I I see uh song writers, producers, um uh fans tally freak out out.

But what's going on uh when you go and can through a lot of the a the youtube comments of h some of these AI songs. The sentiment is, we are screwed. Music is over.

I give up. I am not learning an instrument like IT is not. The future is bright. We're going to create new beautiful music like my creativity is going to blossom.

I think that there is a real existence, al fear, that is exist with in all of the the A I. world. But you're getting into like our human emotions and the beautiful, creative output, hopefully beautiful limit .

how you feel about .

don't bring this up to this.

We got to get really on the and .

I really do that's obviously like reading through the R S. Last year like that is they talk about the creativity and human emotions that all uh but is the is the end of this, just they're trying to get checks in the same way that is there. A lot of they're just trying to get checks like well, because part of me like I think obviously that's the answer. But also part of me wonders if the label s are feeling the same way that you do, which is that, oh, this is not just a thing we need to make money off of tomorrow. This is like an existent al crisis for our business down the road or if they're like whatever this is just a new turn, we have to make sure we get paid.

This is an necessary crisis because they are already losing market chair to uh, many people who are not on major labels major label a listening is down right as an overall share of all listening. It's a lot of IT. So the majority of listening uh but so they recognize that flooding uh the streamers with more and more independent music has not usually been good for there business.

And with more flooding, that is just going to bring everything down to everything is values entirely if you own music. And IT gets play a lot on streaming ing. There's a lot of money in IT like there's billions and billions and billions of dollars and streaming. How attributed is not I was fair and people get said about this, but they're very much need to figure out how to how to enter and participate in this marketplace. And I think kind of like a content I D system, they want to figure out how to properly license you want to use general voice.

change the urals, yes, and IT costs this. And now we got James artists ercs. I J son, I don't been saying i've talked a lot.

I just to related is on the subsoil. I'm aware, I just know that he is a commercial mastermind, yes, but I means going to make a bag no matter what happens. Yes, friend of the park, lake city is a professor.

Color on latest copy. I talk, come on, the stuff he rum me know, uh, last week or a week before and he says really smart that I thinking about. It's related to what you're saying, David, copyright law is like a economic system, right? We create scarcity and then we can like charge money for things because just like for they copy them.

So if you do something bad in the world of copyright, well, the answer is you paid money and you fix IT, and you you even out the economic problem that you've created, right? Olivia rudi ago might have sung for now to a tailor of song. The answer is tailor shop gets a writing credit in some money for to swift, and that is the end of that story.

And just an economic problem that you ve solved by read distributing money AI is a moral problem. This is the thing black point out to me, like the money doesn't solve the perceived moral issue here. So labels might get paid, they might find some business model that some licensed to music into perpetuity or whatever.

But the thing you're seeing in the youtube comments, the thing our audience is feeling, the thing I think a lot of artists are feeling, there's not to solve the money, right? It's like another problem. And so like you see these deals come up and get signed and whatever and ever one's like still pretty, Vicky, right? There's something there that I think is important.

I haven't quite puzzled IT out. I actually want to do something with that idea. For your further thoughts, let me know what you think about IT.

But that gap is the gap, right? We can move a bunch of money around, like the VS and hollywood and the recording inst association, where a god was them. They will move the money around.

Lucy gage will get paid. Is that going to solve the other problem? Like, and I think that's really hard.

is two things that musicians need to not fear. One is that because the output of all of these models can not be covering this music is kind of in this weird limbo space. Like maybe it's going to we will definitely find some streams, but IT probably won't be sinked on television and film because no TV producer is gonna want to have a song where they like, don't really understand the right associated with that own.

And if they have the right to IT, and does IT also secretly contain a vocal sample of James Brown that has been solved? So nobody wants to any right toler doesn't want to use this music that can use in your way. So I think composers and people print of T, V film, I think that they're still very much of business for them.

Uh, and told these much bigger uh, legal issues get sorted out. The other place is that music is about human connection and I don't see this and something like which you wash away like there is no fandom for oliva ega with an elevated a like you need the person, the time that the music and to see tried to create like an avatar racially strAngely coated. I move that guy's name IT was terrible. Um they tried to like their N F T avatar AR pop star and IT was an other failure because IT was completely racist and because why would we develop a relationship to this thing? And so the the fandom side, the pop stardom side of pop music, I don't think, is ever going to go away.

What about the meo? right? So she's like the cartoon character. I ve just learned that she's officially code named cv a one.

Yet there are there are these avatar characters that are finding some findings online. Yes, that's gna happen. I still just like that doesn't look, that's not Olivia. That's not tailor, that's not gaga. I'm sorry, that's just different.

We ve got to end IT if they're not .

Jason on the rilla if they're .

not Jason to like the bar is like can you're country character to feat jay to ruo? I'll take that's a good place standard. Truly thank you so much for during the show.

I suspect you're going to be back on the show quite a bit in these cases. One their way to the courts. We have to take a break when we get back.

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Back, that's not just for one I said the her chest.

Can I tell you, Jason, little story? Yes, of course I would say the the single most ethically compromised thing i've ever done was say yes to some company that I can even remember, uh, that had like a two hundred person Jason to rural concert in seven cisco. This is when I had like not been dating the woman who is now my wife for very long.

And my my god, he hold .

move was getting and IT worked.

Berry, he had a short .

of the whole time. IT was spectacular.

I hope you tell Arthur when he's over that he exists because of Jason. You would have been fading away like that picture back to the future. Not about .

every time A I copies IT after gets a little .

bit right. We've got to do a lighting around. There's a lot of gadget is based two gadgets, lighting rounds yeah let's start a three phone events ananzi in quick succession here so samsu announced uh unpack it's looking like july july tenth yeah extending some fordable les um surprise pixel nine announcement from google in August and then motor L I just had an event and announced the twenty twenty four razors.

So what all that knows IT doesn't get to announced .

an event IT just to tell what funds there have a big influence don't we went because we s um but I can act like a big influence or launch event with some of the funnest photos of like very cool influencers looking extremely bored with, like very colorful razor phones we can get to that minute .

sounds like but .

this is pretty early in the .

cycle for a bunch of phone watchers. IT is weird. I've been trying to figure out what's going on and it's very clear that the the A I race is now happening to everybody else where I think the thing that is happening is everybody is just announcing like the same set of twelve features and the same new hardware that is the same new stuff like apple is copy in, google is copying, samsu is copy, and apple and then others, this incredible race to just be the want to say IT out loud.

And I think especially on android there, there is just going to be so much like A I sameer over the next twelve months as they all rush to do everything they can make of. So the goal, I think, especially is to be apple. Like to me, if this google thing is so transparently just doing this sooner in order to say all the words out loud about what your camera can do before apple says those same words out loud about what .

it's canner can do yeah so it's interesting what it's start google what's fasting to me about google is they just shook up those teams. So rick austro, who had all of hardware, now has all MIT, including android. That's a complicated switch up, right? So it's like the pixel team. Their boss now runs android. They're all boss runs android.

They're a new boss in the big question for google this whole time has been, are you going to do are you going to try? Are you going to try? And like the thing that has keep them from trying heart is they have to maintain the android ecosystem unit said that to mostly express the samsung like, he just got to keep samsung happy.

Around the world, there are many more players, and android is pressed very differently. But if like the pixel guys like rick is like i'm doing IT with the pixel and that this first move is the boss of android, weird, just weird. I think I think it's weird.

It's like that shakeup is weird. And then on top of that, I think google really wants A I to be the differentiator for pixel, right? That big, vertically integrated, like only google can do all the stuff at every layer, the stack we build on chips like like all the way you want to do that with pixel, so you can body up against fun. So I really just weird spot for google to .

be in IT is and IT feels like google is trying to do the same thing to both samsung and apple, but can only say that is trying to do IT to apple, which is basically like I think google very clearly and they've said this out loud, sees this as its chance to win in hardware, right?

That like if they can be the ones to make A I happen and do IT well and do IT first and do IT in the biggest, most interesting, most different other ways, that all of the sudden this is the best new reason to buy a phone that we've had in a really long time. Yes, I don't know that's true. I don't know that there's a ton of evidence yet that IT is true. But if it's true and if you believe it's true, everything google has done sort of make sense, right?

I will reminder that my response to all announced right now or it's probably broken, I believe you, including apple. And when we very clear at this, apple has not announced the date for anything yet for any the apple intelligence features, and no one has ever seen those features in anything, but I totally controlled them out.

Yeah, there is an increasingly angry rant inside of me about how A I is actually nothing and we all need to stop IT. But i'm i'm waiting a while for that to come out.

I mean, look, we can get a computer to produce in a pitch perfect trace into it's something i'm not sure what that is.

That is something I so I .

just think that one for google, how they talk about the pixel, how they talk about the pixel in relation to google I capabilities, how much of those AI beauties come to android, which is just a pixel, there is some kind of shake up going on over there. Kind of curious how to handle IT, especially if they can ship the stuff before apple.

yes. Yeah, if they do this and they're like, oh, shipping in october, that's an unbelievable with but if they can do IT and I think .

especially well, apple and in some kind of apple intelligence till like next year. So even google like shipping in january there again, some market with an a iphone before .

apple probably. But I don't know that anybody is sitting around waiting for a iphone. I think we're still at this point. And this is part of what i'm really excited about as I think there are two simultaneous things happening here where we're going to see in rabid succession.

I think samsung and google both try really hard to make the case for fables, like it's very clear that samsung is all in on that train. I think one of the things google is probably going to do is push the new pixel fold or whatever it's going to be called. I heard rumors it's gonna called the pixel nine XL fold, which starts, uh, just called the pixel fold two.

Everybody, it'll be fine. But anyway, uh, they're going to try to make this case for this like new kind of phone. I think especially as we get to A I like you can start to see what you do with the extra screen, what you do with the extra power.

All these different of, again, in the hopes that apple is just going to announce a say me iphone that does say me iphone things and looks less interesting compared to the android. I don't know to work, but I think that is the gambit. I think it's going to be really interesting.

But then at the same time, everybody is trying to make these AI cases, and no one has those yet. I don't think like you and even threw motoring into that, right? There's this question by lic, what is the foreigner tor? And it's going to be like the summer of fodor's and flippers and whatever else. And then at the end of it'll have apple and whether anyone can do anything that is Better than last year's iphone feels extremely up in the air still.

which is a wild side where the motor phone for second, uh, the razor plus actually looks great with this because they put a foreign screen on the front, which is the size of the origin life, like it's bigger origin life, I think .

it's just a full .

phone of one side and they went with saturated colors, like, honestly, this is a thing I D like about this from the most. The colors are hot. Yeah, they really are. But they were found this design right this is like the third one of these, the fourth one of these um it's expensive, it's a thousand dollars.

But i'm looking at IT and i'm like, you know what if I can actually do any of things people say can do, which I don't believe and I believe that is most be broken actually. Maybe this is the time to get a smaller friend. Why if I just talk to the phone and have a do a bunch of stuff for me like I don't need all the screen and i'm not looking for another laptop, which is basically where my phone is going right now? Yes, very quickly .

becoming another laptop. I got so much shit last year for writing that everybody should start packing foot phones. And history will prove me right. I so firmly believe IT motorway .

does not have any of the AI features and they SAT on the plus they swapped out the altera for telephoto which is just the wrong like everyone rods and whatever um but these phones are great and then and all of the apple springing R C S now so that I message stickers so like i'm like, uh, maybe I can just like trying on to this for a while and not ever not be mad at me once I city. Like there's something there is super interesting, but it's not because the eyes, because the form patch or and honestly, the colors. Like I just like things that look different.

The orange razor is is sick and very into IT.

But then you look at samsung. Samsung is specially just like moving down the line, right? It's like we're onna, get a new z flip and a new z fold and like big b, be marginally smarter.

But who cares? yes. And they've got to deal with some google stuff. Been all of IT in like lots and lots and lots of questions about how samsung ls us off. In a way, it's differentiated from google yet to be.

The big question for samsung is I can if I can make the ring a desirable thing. Ring and we've been hearing sort of bits and pieces is Better for a while, seems to look good. We ve got to try a prototype pa while back. Like I have reasonably high expectation for this thing.

And if it's great or even pretty good, that's a pretty solid ecosystem play for samsung to make that at least I think might convince some people who have galaxy phones to keep their galaxy phones, which is something um but I do really I think there's this bet coming from all of these companies that A I is going to sort of throw the industry up in the air again and everybody has a chance to win IT. And to me, I actually think that that may be true, but I think this like flipper fulda different foreign factor relationship with your gadgets thing might end up being more important. And A I is part of that, right? Like Better theory makes IT so that you have to look at your phone less, which makes IT so the user phone differently.

If A I makes IT so the way of smaller phones, that will be good. Yeah I I will take that by liam is reminding me that the iphone one was three point five inches at the iphone five that had a foreign screen. So they stripped ed in iphone five screen from of the, it's incredible. But if we can get you a place where the phone is more useful because of A I, so now I can Carry a smaller, less distracting phone that we got. I don't think any of these companies have put those ideas together yet.

but they're all going to come up what's going to happen, and they're all going to talk about the camera. This is going to be the summer of AI features in your camera, and they're all going to be the same features on the same kinds of devices across every single surface you can possibly think of. And i'm already sort of board of IT.

Yes, here's what I can tell you. And I was out with some teens like family graduation party. They all had little crappy hundred dollar point shoots um and then amount with the parents run around around maxis kindergarten graduation.

They're all ask me about my art one hundred because everyone kind of thinks iphone photos look like create as A I kind of creeped in and everything it's brighter and weirder. It's weird to see where people are going instead. And I I suspect as soon as something is sam is like more saturation, like I I think it's going be weird.

I think the AI photo trend is going to I think people have a more taste than these companies start swiming. I think let's do you just some other get that stuff. We started out rabbit really quickly. This company is a disaster.

What's not rabbit? Do we have to? So I again, i'm just this podcast is just me doing a Victory lab.

I said a while back that I think that, like if if you made me forecast whether humane or rabbit was closer to being kind of on the right path to do good things, I would say human, uh, I was right. Uh, rabbit just continues to be a massive disaster. Basically, what happened here is a group of developers and security researchers.

I think they called themselves rabid ude, which is very good. I found hard coded A P I S that basically long story short, that governed rabbits access to um I think IT was eleven labs who did all their texas speech stuff and by having those APP, those appeals are best to rotate all the time so that someone else can get them and use them to get access to that same data. Rabbit wasn't doing that.

And so the researcher was really able to just use that A P I to get IT into and apparently see every response ever given by a rabbit device, uh, which is absurd and and has had the rabid ude apparently said they've had access to these keys for I think that was more than a month and rabbit had done anything, hadn't changed the keys to make them outdated. Just it's basically like hinting somebody your password and saying here go nuts do with everyone. It's like you are you going to change your password .

and you like to uh that company is ever since your review and the sort of response, it's like you just waiting you're just waiting for the excepted drop that like they're never once a link large action model and I never will be like took too hard to make yeah on the human inside at least you track salad when they've .

like theyve shift a unch a updates IT has gotten noticeably Better. It's still not good. You stick by IT, but IT is a Better product than IT was. But I think the rabbit has been so interesting to me these last few months because there is like this running, uh, is rabbit scam thing happening? And I think IT all amounts to basically like they did nfd.

Dt, I feel about that, how everyone and really I think what is the the old saying like never described to mAlice, what can be described playing competence? It's just gross incompetence all the way down. And it's like it's just it's just brutal to watch.

And I like, I wanted this thing to be cool. I wanted this company to work. I was pro the idea of this goodly little orange til gadget. And this thing just sucks like I mine is into draw. And I don't intend on ever touching .

how everyone I know about rabbit feels yeah like that cool rabbit animation was worth three hundred dollars.

I'm bedding that in ten years it'll be like a fun story to have on the table behind me while we verge cast. But uh, until then, I let its battery die and that is the correct very fit.

if you like. I finally a teenage engineering product that cost less than four thousand dollars. I bought IT and my habit exam. We're good. Um I want to call this one out from austral. I got to sit in the SONY a illa car what they made with honda and then he played granaries move on the screens inside as the car which is .

what perfect in its way still seems .

to be the realist version of this his stuff and is most ah and there's no guarantee that they will actually have A P S five in IT. But so only trying to make a car and I got god less than I hope that has ealth power, sound and IT three beauty power. And I think legally now require to call party speakers to ultimately you and next to the whole new lineup, including, uh, a new mega boom and a wonder boom, yeah and they now have a feature called mega phone. We can just hold up your phone and talking, but except people, which is incredible.

I also on the party speaker update, uh luter Chris was supposed to play a show in the lucky recently and, uh, call up because the heat, so he just pair two J, B, L, party speakers, wore them with shoulder straps and did a free concert and no waiting to macvs. I've yet to confirm whether he used a proprietaries protocol to apply this figures or one of the new open protocols and or cast, which is very cool. But just know there's a video of luter Chris wearing a party speaker with a solar stop me, we do IT for the people waiting in the mall, which is great.

I propose that we write about IT to our team, and they like me. You can. That's here for.

I love this. And then quickly, David, people going to .

listen to you, but you'd spend some time on who's they talking about, service laptops, windows and ARM.

What's of that? They seem to be very good. Uh, there is like a surprising amount of positivity and enthusiasm that microsoft actually like pulled this thing off.

Uh, tom published his review of the surface laptop when we talked on tuesday. He was like mid draft of the review uh, published. He called IT microsoft best macbook k air competitor yet, which I suspected for your microsoft.

And knowing everything that we know about how they have talked about these things is exactly what you would hope for. Yeah IT still seems like microsoft, like almost finished the job. There are still some like monkey emulation stuff uh, if you run an emulated APP IT seems like you just designates to your battery like if anything, thus saying that this on tuesday. But if anything, like understated the extent to which running an APP that is not prepared for emulation, we'll just set your computer on fire and kill your battery uh but I keep a good battery life uh one of his prose in the review says sixteen gigs of rain for the base model which I take as a personal attack but .

i'll leave that aside um .

but this seems like IT seems like this new line of laptops, this can be really good. Microsoft stuff is coming out. Dell stuff is coming out. A sues reviews are coming out. Like the the general vibe around this generation of PC seems to be pretty good.

Yeah I think that the how good prison, the emulator how good prison is over time is going to be the thing in a way that roseta is an off the thing on the mac. Roseta is the emulator that what's all like intel apps run on the new ARM ships on a mac and like brazza was like so good known, even thought about IT and also preinstalled on these machines. Like if you open an actually six APP on a mac, asked you if you want to do another set, where's the prison on the window side? You're in IT.

It's going to be more important for much longer and .

he doesn't know it's good. So I think that's .

that's task, right? Like there there like centuries of windows apps that you to you how to n it's a stone.

Tb, it's true, but it's also if you want to compete that's the game, right? Yeah uh, so I right. We got to take a great way back with the true letting, right way back. Support for the show comes from clavo.

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Were back with writing around. David has to, I have three, but one of them. But you.

I know your joke. We can. I guess what is your joke is, can we do first? Do you want to suck .

the new verizon logo? I want new versions. Logo so much, if you haven't seen a verizon read is on its logo.

It's the same text. They have etic horizon, what they got the checkmark. But now the text is a red on a black background. And then the v has like a fire gradient in IT. IT is nuts like nuts like all that like just have you radiating in the .

logo is such a .

strong move because it'll never get reproduced correctly every time we do a logis. I'm like lots do gradients. The number is like not like no and rises like screw IT.

We're doing great. It's but then doing red on black, I actually think is a great move because every career should be like. Here's what we are.

We are the demons. d. Reconstruction of anything that the united states government tried to kill and was not able to kill, which is what verizon is. And I think leaning into the fact that it's from hell is like good, like good be now that you point .

that out and even like you could argue that is kind of like the glow from hell coming out of the bottom of the v.

like that really is the most I, and it's like, here's what happened. The united government try to kill A, T, N, T, and instead we got two zombie. A, T, T, and I just be from hell.

Like, that's good. Like, i'm eighteen. T, i'm looking for your settings, lobo redesign any minute. Now, the body this is true rising is one half of the old baby bells and eight and is the other half of the old baby bells. And you just know they want to merge, but you just know that their see is wake up every morning and they pretty look out across the golf course to each other, you know, like one day, body eighteen teis coming back this library, you to make extensive. Once again.

I would like to offer my services as the person who will walk into your board room. So that's the dome's idea i've ever heard of my life and for fifty thousand dollars. And I would have done that for this because they took like this. This just rounds me of the gap when they're like, oh, with this great logo that everybody really likes him doesn't feel dated at all. What if we changed to something so stupid that be so fun, right?

And they did know and feels anything about the reason? Go, if you have an emotional test into any version of rise and I go over time. Let me know. I'm just saying i'm super down with horizon like this one reminds you of literal hell the v just makes me .

think of like I don't know why this is where my brain goes but like you know how logan paul has that sports drink that I can remember that it's prime or something like that. This is like if a if a youtube r with like a ten years many subscribers as logan paul wanted to make a sports drink, this is what the v would look like to me yes, that's all I get is like a knock off sports drink that was my first one is, uh, some federal SE news because we are obligated to OK about IT a new stuff on threads where now if you have federated your account and you post on threads, not only can people on other activity of platforms see your post.

They can actually like and reply and you will see the lakes and replies like the way or threats has been kind of weird before and now others at least sort of one step of two way stuff. If you reply to their reply, it's wacky. But again, like any including that, meta is continuing to push into actually opening this stuff up. I've found very exciting and IT seems to still be happening that meta cares about this and wants to federate and make all of this stuff interOperate. And I just think that's very cool.

Whether meta is a company cares, weird man has, which is weird ideas. What all its platforms are out the half controversy scandal this week where they just keep limiting the political content. Even if you ask IT to show you politics, content is just reverts.

Every time you close the APP, IT turns the setting off to show .

the it's like, yeah we know you guys don't want use. It's like it's we're now all of your bugs are in support of you not want to the thing that you keep trying. So I did the companies weird, the people who are working on this at meta supersonic about IT yeah like they are communicating about IT, their posting threads about IT, they've talked to us about IT.

So at least on that front, the energy of that companies sincere ly pointed IT can you make that diverse work? Ah and I think that alone is bringing a bunch of other companies along. So like ghost, the newsletter platform very sincere about making federation work. The blog post to their product manager is writing figuring out how to do federation an activity pub, some of the funniest technical problem you eating your day .

and this that is complicated. It's actually, if you wanted, like understand what IT takes to make all this work. Those boxes are actually pretty good because this stuff is messy .

to and we want to do IT. And like sending stuff out for media company is like in our DNA, like we have R, S, S, we syndicate to apple rates, like we have feeds of content. Doing all these things like out is super great.

Great all day on what do media companies love doing? Set in the ship out for free, right? Work for free, by all means. Like every media companies like going to do IT um inbox is really hard, right?

The part where I post a quick post, the verge gets federated, you hit like on IT and then IT comes back to us super hard and then making that to a in turn. So you've replied to my post on some ask answer and then I replied you and that comes back out to you. And then ever what else can see IT all that's really complicated.

Then if you're met a more in these other companies, you have to be legally compliant in europe. And but that so it's going to slow because it's complicated. But you can just see there is a movement and there is still a bunch of energy there.

It's not like IT hasn't broken twitter, right? All that stuff is happening. But I can see how complicated is, but I can see people are consistently plugin when I was .

something is great. Yeah yeah. agree. The just the sheer existence of new features on this front goes a long way. And you can see IT like in the fet verse space every time meta announce anything, all of my like feathers brows on massed on like that go yeah I what's your next eline?

A big supreme court week? Uh, scarf is actually not released a bunch of big decisions. We want to cover some very complicated ones, but they release one big one that I think is really important.

I was just briefly, there was a group of basic ova deniers who sued the bide administration for the first men of violations because the by administration had been talking to social media platforms about vaccine information, misinformation. They basically said, this is impermissible censorship. And they got always Green court, by way, the fish circuit, which is crazy, the face circuit, basically really like a fever dream.

Like, yeah, you know, if the fever dreams of youtube swap kind of an judicial opinion like that was the feral opinion, like I think they call the largest coordinated government censorship campaign story, and got to the sun court or six three supreme court full of extremely hard right conservatives. And I was like, what are you talking about? That's the opinion written by amy county, bert.

And he says, like, flat out like one. You don't have standing to sue here. You cannot prove one set of actions by the government that pulled your post. M, but there's there's nothing here in this body of evidence that says the government sensor you so like you don't, you shouldn't even be here.

And then SHE SHE says, is everything, which I think is really important for this whole debate that probably no one to pay attention to, very important to this whole debate. She's like, you have collapsed the users of the platform, the platform in the government, all into one thing like the plaintiff, the defendants. And you are like in the platforms in between.

It's not just one thing like there are some people who got hurt this who claimed that they got censored this way by this agency talking to that platform. There are people who say that a different part of the by administration talk to a different platform or shooted, yet a third person about something else, and that's not all the same thing. So like the idea that there is a mass coordinated government censorship campaign directed at platforms broadly that is directed at the sit, like that doesn't make any sense.

Well, I mean, that is sort of an animated argument of a corner of the internet yeah and it's it's IT was nice to see that kind of .

basically shows like this is nonsense yeah and like this supreme court telling that swap this is an nonsense is pretty notable to me that sounds to say, look, I think governments see regulations about I think everybody knows how I feel about the first moment. That's how to say there isn't overreach and weird drooping. That's why it's called when the government through like pressures at platform and called job onic.

Um there's a lot of that going on. Um for example, conservative republicans basically just got the stanford internet observatory defunded right by putting a lot pressure on canford. Is that cool? Is that a thing you want? Is that a speech? There's like a lot of that going on on both sites.

H right? Democrats love the speech regulation actually the same way properties do. Like all these kids safety bills are visually speech regulations.

Just we think it's we think it's important product kids. So we can like shop a speech regulation into american political history. Weird, weird all around. I'm not saying as for them, i'm just saying this case was so stupid in our supreme court was like it's pretty stupid and kick man, what's what's your next one?

Uh my next one is a small one uh, about the the ChatGPT mac APP which is now available to everybody and I think is fascinating um because A A couple of people have pointed out to me very recently that one of the strange things about open a eyes, it's terrible at making product that is IT has what a lot of people would argue is like best in class, extremely good technology.

And I can't stop talking to people whose whole pitches we did IT Better than open eye. Uh, I think the map p is weirdly important for ChatGPT because they've been open a eye has been. Pretty like loudly and clearly working on a search engine.

I think they have a lot of other ways they're trying to figure out how to product tize this stuff other than just like a we are ugly chatbot in your web browser, uh and this thing where IT can you know talk to you using supporting documents like you can take extreme shots on your computer upload and questions about that's very cool. IT has access to different things in your computer. This is like if you want to see what open a ee is actually trying to do and get you a Normal person to be interested in like the mac APP is a pretty big step in that direction. And I just think it's really interesting also, all of its most interesting sclar johanan voices still not there.

Yeah, I know why I thinks, well, little handsome. Like, no.

because I use windows.

Thank you. Super, super gn to see you very thing. Last one in this is I think the most important thing we going to talk about this week going to show, uh, as you know, the verge is america's for most cybernetic wipe or new source.

That's correct. We've been very responsible to show. I I think you also know we are very precious, very serious journalists. We take our duty of care very seriously.

This, I was there when you first got your hand on a cyber truck wiper and IT, was you journalism a cyber truck labor? That out by southwest was a big deal.

I don't think he, owner, that I would track enjoying the practice of journalism, that I committed some real acts of journalism with that way. So a few weeks here, there are these reports that the cyber shocky per was faulty and cyber trucks deliveries were being held back to the potential recall, that IT was wrapped around, that IT wasn't very effective.

And we held back a hundreds of tips, arrived out of various cyber truck forum in social media posts, and we couldn't confirm them. So we we ran, reportedly, we are very calm. Other, other sites, I want name names, ran with a sensational, outrageous flick. The journalism.

they're right .

the whole time. But really they were now there, an official hybrid, which has motor problems, are just popping in the trim on the back, is flying off the cars um which is that things worse? Um it's not good.

There's a lot of cber truck owners in the forms. Now we're like we just got had like this is nonsense. Not great for two hundred thousand million triangle. It's the second big recall, the first one of you were call, it's the second big recall, the first one if you remember what accelerate your peddle was getting stuck.

which they fixed with like .

a rivet right now I would fix IT. This should just just not just riviere .

in point nail gun and but yeah .

um the trim is going to be fixed with them we called the decision promoter which specially make the glue work Better um in pressure sensitive tape or they will replace IT if necessarily of charge of course um and then except that wipe is excessive electrical current can cause the front winched wipe or motor controller to fail ah so they will replaced.

I'm sure this is not what's happening, but that makes IT sound like it's it's getting like too much power. This is just it's becoming like electrified and going a thousand miles an hour and then it's just like launches itself into space. And that's if if you're separate work well.

like I can't a long draw too many connections you call. One of the big innovations of the cyber truck is its new forty eight world control system, traditional cars. In the fact of the life picture, like I don't know that the case, I know these things are connected, whatever.

but the family way here Better just instantly dies.

It's it's not great the fact that is the way from like they did not need to reinvent the Whiter and they super did and there are a lots of videos of IT just flopping like if it's raining really hard like its structural integrity fails uh, again, america's number one cybernetic news source. We're trying to be very, very responsible here. I'm just saying we Price could have gone with the intense click bate. We will start reporting them first one and we held back but IT turns it's actually broken and there is a recall it's a very funny god blood us life for launching the saying we trying to a car. It's very good by way the same time all this is happening with tesla rival just just like a five blind hour with first I can input five mystery cars and roadmap um the competition is here like IT the Better fixed wipers .

and in particular feels like IT immediately went from like cool company. Interesting ideas can IT survive to like, oh, this is it's it's coming now and even the way that like R. J. CEO talked about IT after wards was like, it's like bucket up.

Let's go got some money. I A manufacturer partner who can like scale really fast and then walks. I can get a bunch of their software there exit about because just we are about R J, is going to be on coder in a few weeks.

So so i'm very excited to ask him exactly what I can get in our three x, which is really what we're going to take a tile time. Uh, can I have a nap? It's been forty five minutes.

Have a nap. That's I. Um, alright, we got to get out here where way over.

I think you did charly free on the show. I was going to talk to him. I gonna call the verge store is back.

We get new gear. Big mugs for teen. exciting.

I'm hoping last time I will ever have this stupid tiny mug.

the test from now on.

bigger and bigger mugs every twelve months or so, until eventually we have like a, like an a git pie sixty inch month. Very excited about this.

And I thought IT is before the joy. So I have forth. We're off next week.

Yeah, take a break. Let's and firework. Drink a beer. Me, great. Keep all your fingers because A.

And that's IT for the verge cast this week. Y we'd love to hear from you give us a call at eight, six, six verge one one. The ge cast is the production of the virgin box minia podcast network, our showers produced by Andrew marino and leon James.

That's IT. We'll see you next week. Support for this episode de comes from A W S. A W S, generate A, A, I gives you the tools to power your business forward with the security and speed of the world's most experienced club. Hey, it's slim from decoder with new IP top. We spent a lot of time talking about some of the most important people in taking business about what they're putting resources to and why they think it's so critical for the future. That's why we're doing this special series diving into summer, the most unique ways companies are spending money today.

For instance, what does that mean to start buying and using A I at work? How much is that costing companies? What products are they buying? And most importantly, what are they doing with IT? And of course, podcasts? Yes, the thing you listening to right now, well, it's increasingly being produced directly by companies like venture capital firms, investment funds and a new crop of creators who one day want to be investors themselves.

And what is actually going on with these acquisitions this year, especially in the A I space, why are so many big players in tech deciding not to acquire and instead license tech and hire away co founders? The answer, IT turns out, is a lot more complicated than that seems. You'll hear all that and more this month. I'm decoder with the lie presented by strike. You can listen to decoder or ever you get your podcast.