The shine comes off the Vision Pro
01:44:11 Share

Support for the verge cast comes from strike. Strike is a payments in billion platform supporting millions of businesses around the world, including companies like uber, B, M W and door dash. Striping has help countless startups and establish companies like reached their groth goals, make progress on their emissions and reach more customers globally. The platform offers a sweet of specialized features and tools to fash track growth like stripe billing, which makes IT easy to handle subscription based charges, invoices and all reactions ring revenue management needs. You can learn how stripe helps companies of all sizes make progress at stripe dot com that striped out com to learn more, right, make progress.

Support for the show .

comes from service. Now the AI platform for business transformation. You've heard the big hype around A I, and the truth is A I is only as powerful as the platform is built into service. Now is the platform that puts A I to work for people across your business, removing frustration for your employees, super charging productivity for developers, providing intelligent tools for your service agents to make customers happier, all built into a single platform you can use right now. And that's why the world works with service now is a service now can flash A I for people to learn more.

Hello, I look in the forecast, the flagship podcast of perceiving the world through screens.

Yeah, yeah.

That thing I told you about .

actually that .

no one believes me about so does mean .

our podcast is like very good at first and then sort of slowly gets more .

annoying over time.

You too. It's not. It's the very. It's very good, quite a lot going on this week. Yeah, as we are recording, we are expecting breaking news from microsoft about the future, the x box. Yes, yes.

So we're just going to react to that in real time and then we'll have to more and come on the next show to explain this going on. But we'll react to that real. And I promise you i'm a friend.

New David pears is here. Hi, I should warn everyone that um I have a deeply sore throat so the like sexy smaller ing thing i'm doing is just a one time thing and IT will not be this good to listen to me every time.

No, you should keep IT A I knew a sexy smaller A I OpenAI dog on the slash sexy smaller crises here deeply disapointment .

don't also have a cold right now. Yeah, I, I, I could drop IT a little lower. I don't even know how far to go.

This is when only first start podcasting in the english of podcast ages ago as like I should have a podcast voice yeah, but gave up on that immediately.

And you have to, otherwise you forget about IT. And you, how are you this my Normal .

voice with nickey mouse?

That's my Normal voice. You know, I actually do a verge voice at home.

I talk like this. So can you do an impression of your voice for us?

Just roll fast. I think decoder is my fake podcast voice. interesting. It's it's a suda M P. R.

I think of that is like nei patel in his study swording a bRandy.

Yeah, it's the same voice.

That's right.

It's drunk. Ira glass, that's the decoder voice. That's what I got for you.

Okay.

I love this for you. Uh, we got to start with some housekeeping. This is our first verge cast back on the main verge youtube channel. I I am told this is a complicated move, but IT should be simple to experience. They can you explain what's going on?

yes. okay. So there are now two channels on which you can experience the verge cast. We have the verge es main youtube channel, which is youtube document slashed the verge or search the verge. That's where all the full episodes are gona live.

Uh, we just wanted to have the show in the rest of our self kind of be closer to each other, are easier to find. And with all the stuff youtube is doing with podcast right now, IT actually makes sense to have those things a little closer together because now you can subscribe to just a single playlist of all you want is the podcast. You can subscribe to the channel and get everything in youtube and get the podcast in youtube music. It's all a little wear right now because google is still sorting out how all of the podcast stuff works.

The very in character for google. I just want to be clear at that.

yes. Well, like all of this is stuff that I think we are doing correctly uh, and just slightly ahead of google. So hopefully, this will continue to make more sense as time goes on.

But basically all the full episodes are going to be on the verge s youtube channel for now on and they're going to do like clips and extras and silly suffer. We make fun d of new light off the show, on the verge cash shape. So that's all that suffer live, I promise.

There was a lot of weirdness as we moved all of this stuff. Uh, liam or producer did like a heroic job to get all of this done. IT was messy because youtube is messy, but I think it's done now.

People seem to have like, found the world cast again in all the youtube platforms. So should work. And if you don't listen to this pockets on youtube, don't worry about IT. Literally nothing else will change.

I hope this makes more sense as time goes on. To be google motto, I just want to be hundred percent clear on that.

We have a product team focused on making this makes sense. Yeah.

I hope this makes sense as time goes on is how google approaches product strategy at a very high level. Uh, I will give you but one example, and I don't know why this threads posted the numbers IT did, except I think it's spoke to people's very souls. I bought a big silly SONY TV.

I'm very happy. Yes, in ninety five old, very, very pleased with the thought that looks amazing. IT came with a web cam, which I think is just representative of how deeply overcharged I was for this TV.

I like it's, we made so much money. Here's a camera. fine.

So like, what can this? What we can do? Uh, nothing. You can watch you while you watch T, V, and adjust the settings. That's a hard no. Yeah and then and there is a zoom client and there's a google meet client. So I was like, fine oh, IT has gesture controls, which are for the vision, though i'm just .

not doing and gesture controls, I know what happened oh my god.

this is the best if I S P A top T V. I watch google to sign into our staff meeting and basically be a bad at our staff meeting in on my, where do I type in the code but you can and I was like, okay, where do I switch accounts to my worker count? Then you can't. And so there's ve made a google meet client for android, which the stylization runs. They can't join meetings.

They can just call.

You can just call people with your phone number from your television a thing that everyone wants to do.

Yes, no.

David, i'm curious for your guess and what happened here because I think I know. So what .

happened was google, in its infinite wisdom, decided that duo and meat should not be different things because when you call one person and you call another person, you should be the same thing. ah. So what they did was they released duo to meet, and then read him to meet, to meet original.

And then I think I have this right. And then the old duo, now meat, became google meet. But i'm guessing what never happened is that your T, V never got an update. So you still have google do a .

with a different name. I didn't get IT up. There is no update. T, V, get when T, V is hard wired to the writer. This is a very .

insane TV situation. Well, okay, you're google forgot .

this V T to update the meet client so that I could join meetings.

They change the name but .

forgot to change. There's a can ban board in mountain view labeled we hope this makes sense over time and update the meat client so IT can join meetings as a card of mt. board. IT just hasn't moved in over a year.

Now I have to tell you, they scrum to this and decided that updating new list T V was not .

a corporis, an android APP.

Your T V was .

a little giant tablet member. When they're like android tablets are back, we're going to try hard again.

Remember that IT all makes .

sense over time, and we hope this makes sense over time.

Worry about IT.

Anyway, I I had an audio only in this stuff, so I, I, I don't know, I can join for my phone and .

all the power was great.

He was great. And to, all right, so what on youtube? Upshot of that is, one, I can't drin meeting some television. We are now. Nel.

yeah. So IT.

that's much about the news. Quite a good news. Let's try the vision pro. IT is two weeks after the vision pro hit.

which means everybody has to return IT.

Now you got to make the big return decision. I look a lot of influencers about the vision pro to make a bunch of vision pro of views on youtube. And they ever return the vision pro, yes. Because why would you keep IT if that's your goal? Like why would you keep yeah right like you you've milk to that for all the first.

That's how you used to be able to do like reviews and stuff once upon a time. You just yeah I definitely want this very expensive product.

I would just say there's like cloud element to vision pro discourse that we keep pointing out, like vision pro thrown at the cyber truck. Subscribe to my news letter like .

that is a whole one .

can be returned if you get nothing ourselves. There's there's just a whole universe of that discourse that I think we can just set to. Cide is a family we can agree we're going to set aside the the cloud chasing part of the coverage.

Then there's a bunch of people who are happy with IT and they're keeping IT and watch to them and they are excited and they ve they've got big lonely tvs to watch. That's right. We can talk about that because I think some of that is coming into focus as well.

Then there's the people who the height balloon for them popped, and they are genuinely returning IT for a variety of reasons, all of which seem fairly predictable. yes. And I think that it's the gap between the hype and reality that is really disappointing.

A bunch people here. So people are returning because it's not comfortable to wear. People returning because that makes our eyes they're getting heads. People are returning IT because they are little in IT or the past through isn't what they thought I was going to be IT IT feels .

the windows management was one I saw someone .

turned to over window .

manager like IT was one of many reasons, but like, a big factor for them was like, yeah, I can't like, manage the windows.

Probably IT didn't if you are a person enough feelings, no manager turned computer, please. We should hang out.

We love you.

Just come on over like we should talk. But that's how I would diagnosed, right, is the things that was promised to do and then the things that can actually do and the product is now there is a pretty staggering get between those two things.

yes.

And I think the thing we've really spent the last week kind of discovering as a society is that IT turns out that apple having a long history of making these things work and having A R presumably very cool road map doesn't mean anything for the thing on your face, right? This is what we talk about when we did this review, right? Like you can talk all you want about where this is going and who's right about the future and the big ideas behind all of this and the possibility to the execute.

And I still have not changed my mind on any of that. I think if you were to bet on a horse in this race, you'd be crazy not to bet on apple historical. That is true.

IT doesn't change anything for the fact that you use just got a very expensive thing that is uncomfortable to wear for a lot of people, doesn't do that much for most people's use cases and is thirty five hundred dollars. And so I think we saw a really Normal thing happen, which is a lot of people tried IT. Super cool like you went through this too.

And I like the first time you put IT on, you spend a couple of hours and that you take IT off like, oh my god, that is the most impressive thing i've ever seen. And then the fifth time you do that, you're like, well, i'm not doing this because it's cool. I actually need something out of this.

And the entertainment side of things seems to be holding up like the people who want to watch a large screen look at cool panoramic c pictures they've taken, whatever that seems to be working for people. But the question of a, is that enough for this thirty five dollars had set? And b, can I do that comfortable? Like literally physically comfortable? Ly, yeah, is turning out to be a higher bar. I think them a lot of people who bought the thing expected.

I want to stay focus on that use case. I would submit to you if you take your thirty thousand dollars and you go and by the biggest TV you can get for that money, you will be happier in the longer .

than owning a first .

generation. You tiktok at the tiktok, once everyone are getting like maybe you're a solitary person and we've heard from a lot of people like this and you never have people over to watch T V the one time you want to. And your only option is the vision pro. You're going to be like, huh there's also deep being move on not having the way on your face. Um there's just something about that that's a different yeah the .

thing .

you lose out on is the audio side of IT because vision problem is very convincing ing with facial audio. So if you were good headphones with IT like airports s pro, that's very convincing.

And as a travel device on an airplane, i've seen a lot of people where to sing an airplane ts and say i'd look like for a long hole flight you're flying new york terms to go and you do the emerge and you're just like in space and you just don't feel cramped anymore. Great, thirty five hundred dollars external battery pack like you're still a generation or two behind from that thing being valuable, I would say. But if that's the whole value proposition, you're really missing out on a lot that you should be getting from a computer.

I can put windows everywhere in your space. Yes, and I keep seeing apps that like could be really cool. There is one A V song and I were laughing at last night.

Uh it's vastly a virtual palatine so you have any exercise bike, preferably one with like blue tooth, I compared with thing over and or whatever protocol that is um and IT just mounts a big virtual screen in front of you and then you go on a bike ride that's cool that is cool and super cool even it's like you to work vision pro in your head to do with an external battle with that. Yeah like none, it's not made for that. Yeah, I just isn't made for that.

And then there was the other APP that I would keep talking about, which is the mac display. And I thought I was utterly fascinating that a lot of the first conversation you saw from vision pro owners was the killer out for the thing as my mac. Yes, which is wild.

Like just what like, the application model has nothing to do. A facial computing is just a big window in your mac. Uh, the mac is notably much more open than an I O S ipad was based device.

So what you want is iraq applications. And then you have this big screen, and apple keeps the building IT as a four case screen. And then over time, you started seeing people say this actually kind of a little blurry.

This isn't a sharp as I thought I was, and it's because apple is making a five kid. But can I like display or studios that resolution there? They're making a virtual one of those at that resolution, and then they're dowries into fork in setting .

a 4 video stream of that life， which you can then scale finance.

And so I called this out in the review, and I was just like one of those things like so hard to explain so much of this devices. Once you see IT for yourself, you get IT. But IT is really hard to explain.

You're looking at the screen that seemed sharp. And then underneath IT are like five scaling Operations. And then on top of that, there's soviet rendering.

So you've made this huge mac display that is already fuzzy because of the scaling steps in between the virtual display that created that's five k that's being scaled down the fork and sent to the headset. And then you've made IT really big. And then if you look at the center of IT, the edges of IT are blurry because of the povide rendering.

And so people are just sort of running into the reality of what that screen really looks like. And they are like, oh, my application model is still a mac. I should just .

sees my mac yeah right. And I think the other part of that is also, to your point about its not super clear until you see IT the actual interaction of the mac apps on my mac, the vision pro apps that are actually optimized for this special computing and the ipad apps that run vision pro is not good.

Like you you can technically have all of those things, but the world you want, and I think they're a lot of people expected, is one where all of my apps are just all of my apps and some of them run on my device, some of them run on my mac, but I can just sort of put them all anywhere and they all interact. And that's pretty cool. That is not at all how IT works.

And I think that like the people who are mad about the window management are the ones who are like, well, either the idea of being able to leave my email in the other room is actually like, not a good, it's neat, but it's stupid. And why would I want that? Or this thing about like, okay, i've been promised something like sort of world scale APP multitasking.

And this is actually a tiny little slice of that, plus a bunch of other slightly confusing things to me. This is like when they put stage manager on the ipad. And like, I can see what you are going for here, you just missed IT by about thirty percent and I kind of kills the whole premise for me.

Ah the two things that I think would make that much Better and you can see them and I think that's the thirty percent one to have to make a smaller like the hardware is not ready for the software. Like I have come back to that several times. Like one way to think about this is this is a simulator for the hardware they want to build and you can see putting windows over your house and like having digital objects everywhere would be amazing.

But then you have to wear a vision pro. And every time I see a core vision pro APP, I think, yes. But to have this experience, you've got to put all that wait on your head.

And for some people, that's fine. I I don't want to discount the people who like that's great. But the the reality of IT is then you degrade the literally degrade reality. You you are wearing a vision pro in your face and the world around you is like rainy and there's motion in the pastor isn't good and you are prioritizing the digital world over the real world. And I I just don't think that problem.

And the moment you walk into a dark room, you just see mud, right?

Yeah I mean, it's it's a camera. You just cannot overcome cameras and I have now talk to because in the review, but IT basic called the top and pastas, like, you can get Better, but I can get five thousand percent Better, right? And if you did, like by the time you get that much Better, some other technology will come along and be destructive.

And very smart people disagree everything on this. I'd finally like, who knows? But we all agree that the timing for that is ten years out. And I am just not making any predictions on what happens in ten years .

of technology development. I think we bunch us in the office of and talking about how would you shrink this handset? Like do they make a design mistake? And a lot of people like, why didn't they just take that computer and put IT with the battery pack, right? Yeah, and just take a lot of that weight out. But then if you put IT with a battery pack, you'd effectively be Carrying around like a mac mini in your .

pocket with a battery attached to puffy White straps.

You need fans to cool IT. Who knows if you can like actually be fast enough along that wire to to do list that all the incredible process it's doing. It's like no IT actually really come like I keep going back to its a really fascinating device because this is so complex. IT is such like exquisitely designed device that doesn't do a whole lot.

But that part of IT, where doesn't do a whole lot, that's because it's new if there's no apps, word, yeah, we saw a report this week from immersive wire. I want to say I was the most vision perhaps hit ceiling of one thousand downloads with very few people have this product vanishing. A few people have this product vanishing. A few after others have started building apps that are made for IT.

That's a cycle that yeah that's a cycle that's going to continue because if no one's making apps for nobody y's buying IT. And if nobody is buying IT, the no one's bringing apps for IT.

I do think what's clear is that this is a repeat of the, uh, you can't just blow up an iphone up and have IT work on the ipad problem, which apple thought that ecosystem would a ton of time and that IT didn't like. Luckily, apples able to get the ipad because system going very quickly because the you will just two x your iphone happen that would be great, was a total non starter.

And I think we're going to that again where IT turns out ipad apps are not the answer. Like what we have seen overwhelmingly so far as people being like there are some cool stuff. Even apple now is going into apple arcade and saying here's some of the stuff you can actually use for spain. It's cool. Um this idea that you know you have access to this giant set of apps and IT will get us there and bias enough time to get to the next thing i'm less convinced of every day because IT just doesn't seem to be more IT does not seem to be sort of social people that way. So I think .

about one more limitation that I think the community has discovered of this thing. And then I want to talk about my soccer.

We're viewing IT, yes, yes.

best, which is deeply as a professional reviewer, all I could think of is. Boy, hope more ceos try to take my business. Just get out there soon.

Arpa, try to just start review and stuff you like a pixel. He should review the pixel soon. Arper try. I pick up a pixel chAllenge. Pay attention of the pixel chAllenge. And the other limitation that I think is really weird and idea piece on this on the side, by the time of the people in the like, the vision prose subside and the people i've ve seen other places online do not think apples default fitments is good.

yes.

So there are like, you go and you get your face scan, you do the iphone scan and you will get a light seal and all of them, I get a smaller light till some people are. I take a light little off and mashed against your face, which I try. IT is very convincing in terms of a field of view.

You get a huge field of view. I felt like I underwater like the lens that are not designed to special cancer ables. But they're like get a different light to make a smaller like mess with the fit because they don't think that the fit that apple is giving people is right.

which we discovered apple really does not want you to do right.

like it's really don't want to do that.

You can't just walk in and buy three light seals and see which one you like the best.

right? Because there two hundred dollars.

there two hundred dollars. But so i'll make that concrete if you're listening. We have a review unit. We want more people, our team to use IT. We want to make more videos.

We have ideas and how to cover IT, even if we bought another one, even if we sent the review unit from apple back and we just bought one in order to be fair and coverage is more people use the thing. We have to make sure that fits them. Because if IT doesn't fit right, the eye tracking goes completely wanky in, people get headaches.

So okay, I told o in our video direction. I just go to the apple sources, like buy a unal light seals. Turns out there are seventeen sizes. There are two hundred dollars piece, and apple won't let you just buy some. Yes, you cannot go to apple store and just buy some.

They keep them in a drawer, but you have to ask someone.

And who made the vision property like on is on that team. He added to the video. Uh, they made him sit for the demo, the full half hour demo, and then they let him buy one in his size. And it's like why? K just we want to give you money.

yeah.

up to four thousand dollars. But if you walk in any story, you know, like I was just hear four thousand dollars. Just give me one of everything. Few stores in amErica will be like, no, you just actually there's a .

process yeah yeah would like get out.

You get one yeah and when you think of the vision for a light seal, you immediately leave to armies .

uh hundred percent. Same experience. Seems like I walk IT in my wood. Do I have enough money .

to be in here right now? Yeah, it's barneys mas. And the vision for light in terms of luxury purchasing experiences, you can just buy a for r.

You got ta buy a bad for our first. You can't just buy a vision for light seal. You got to a sit down for thirty minutes first. So that is annoying on its face. If you buy IT for enterprise use.

I've seen a lot of designers like we bought one for office so we could like shared as a three d model in tool and know like IT. This is just like not designed to be shared. If you spend thirty five hundred dollars a to have IT as a cool TV, IT is chAllenging to get IT to fit the other people that just physically, yeah, you can accomplish the goal. But IT is chAllenging to be like this computer is available for someone in the office to use. Here's a selection of things .

that make IT fit your head. It's so consumer hostile.

So there's I think there's a connection here. It's too new. Yeah, I think they just shipped the thing there's like know you all know hydro had phone jex yeah that was a hostel move. This is like the product isn't ready to support that thing in the way that is in particular, not ready is IOS and ipad O S have no affordable for multiuser support.

So the vision pro, which that has opted C A A in IT in scin your eyes and log u IT should be able to sin my eyes or your eyes, or David is eyes, or someone else eyes will hears your account here you we know where you here's your account and here's your self. And IT has nothing in like on top of IT has none of the like, uh, retaliates, stored. So if I have one, I have a vision pro. And I learned to you every time I learned to you have to retaliate ate, I have to put IT in guest mode, and you have to retaliate ate for your eyes.

Yeah, that's stupid.

That has to. That was a deliberate choice though, right? That has to have been a deliberate choice by able to make IT hard for you to share this thing with people because for all the reasons you've talking about that, the hardware is not set up for success for .

you to be sharing. Why that's why I think it's .

a .

hostile because they I don't think like I do not believe they do. They have on jack, they didn't need to, especially the fun started getting bigger. They did that because they wanted airports to see at. The airports are huge size. I know people love their airports and know people .

think we are wrong about their pots.

They basically created a market for proprietary add funds. Yes, about the propriety headphones, yes, like I know they are blue tube.

but actually run a special version, bluetooth. Kinsey gets you on that one. They're like, can you believe they rid of their heads? And jack, who allowed that? Like we thought about IT all the time.

I did my best. But like, that was strained. Host, if they created a market for tire head friends and they flew at the market, I have, yes, i'm aware that people really like them. Whatever is a thing that happened, not allowing mutual users on the ipad at this point, ipad history little bit hostel, you have families, people share their ipad.

Schools there there some enterprise support for shared accounts uh, on I O services if you're in a school or business, but a regular person who spends five, six, seven hours and ipad, that is not a family device by any stretch. The imagination is locked to one user because apple wants you to buy multiple life. So when everyone in your family have not bad, there's some just raw capitalistic user hostility there.

Yeah, fine. The rich st. Company in the world. What a shock. I think with a vision for there, there's no expectation that a family of four is going to buy four vision prose. And I think that that's why I am like not ready to call IT. I think they just shipped to the product that was done.

I think he was hostile design. I don't think it's necessarily like apple was set out to to had a big vision here. I think IT was just, well, we want to make this thing as cool as possible, and that means we need to make IT as flinck as possible regardless of what that means for like use cases for people, because we want to make IT as ool as possible.

And that's hostile to the users because if they can't share IT, they can do anything with that. They have to they do have to go buy another one or they have to go buy a two hundred dollar light seal if they want to have that experience. And like I don't want to say the quest pro is a good product, but that part of IT, I just remember everyone.

we gave a quest pro of four. yeah. And the headline was, get me out of here.

But could you put IT on, like when you put IT on your head? Did IT fit? Did you have to go buy a two hundred dollar light seal to make sure IT work?

Oh, no. So I don't buy that promise honestly. Like if you have you ever put on somebody else's headset and you spent fifteen minutes screwing around with the lenses and the strap together to fit your head, like there's just no walked in which you have a good experience using this thing. Ironically, it's one of the reasons I think meta riband strategy is closer to the right one because it's just a per glasses that much closer to a thing you can just put on anyone's head and IT will more or less work. You might look stupid in them, but it's just a para glasses a whereas something like this is just, by definition, so individual user centric that I think for apple to say, oh, share IT with your friends, they're going to have a trash experience in IT is actually a bad idea like I think no.

I think was a bad idea. What everything is good for the back. I think he was a bad idea to design a product.

Was that to ship the vision pro, which is yeah, I like like to shit in this state to say, hey.

we we're going to charge you two hundred dollars for a light seal hey, we're going to make IT so extraordinary for one person and no one else I think that's just inherently hostile design.

I I do think an interesting question that is becoming more and more open is whether apple overshot um and this is why we should get into mark soccer works review this thing because it's part of the case that he made, which is that apple basically came out and said we are going to make the best, most impressive, most incredible thing possible every other consequence be damped right and I did that by all accounts I A, I, I don't think I missed in terms of doing the best anyone possible can at this moment in time, on very many fronts.

Is doing that a Better idea than making something that is eighty five percent as good and maybe half the weight don't know, like is IT something that apple should have shipped that was much closer to just a screen and an entertainment device as supposed to trying to do all of this other stuff, these, I think, this road map, apple has set a telephone where IT made the best thing possible. And it's just going to try to bring IT down in all of those ways over time towards people is a strategy. But I think it's it's less, less obvious to me that is the right one because it's like you you want that to be the luxury thing that not everybody can afford, but everybody who can really love.

And even that is not what it's getting right now. It's not like the test, the roads or the super expensive first luxury im you see from a lot of companies. It's not even working for those people.

It's not the the samsung foot phones, right? Yeah like like that was that was the thing I was like, okay, there's a lot of flaws in this. If you peel this part of IT will destroy IT and then samsung will not.

But like, IT still work pretty well and more. I mean, yeah, more than one person could use IT, but I actually did IT delivered on the promise. And this feels .

like IT doesn't. But the promise there was .

just IT on full. Yes.

he was much more promise that apple is making as we will, intermediate reality for you.

And that was perhaps too bigger promise to make.

Um I think David said this a couple years ago, which is with the apple watch. And so so many people have compared the vision through to the apple watch, which i'm just going to remind everyone I got right in that review to um but they I want to understand asic drastic changes but today I think he was used at this couple days.

They got the form factor right? Everyone knew that this is actually, look, in all you're doing this, we're finding the thing around the shape that IT should be in here IT just seems obvious, the foremen tories, right, that they shouldn't do pastor, in this way, that what you want is all you want, glasses, something that does bring into the docker work review, at which again, I think every C. O. Should just review their comments. But do you want tell mark?

sure. okay. So let me let me brief ly set the scene for you here. So mark rockburg and he's nearly long hair, which shocked we have not talked about in the show.

Please see that, uh, sitting on a couch in, you know dark long sleeve shirt, I think a with an immaculately flutter pillow behind him, lovely set up did I don't know what, maybe five minutes or so just kind of riff on his experience with the vision pro, how he feels about the quest three compared to the vision problem. Because there were a lot of people remember when this came out who were like, all the quest is dead. A meta actually rushed to launch the quest three ahead of the vision pro.

These two things have been very closely pitted against each other as sort of opposite ends of this strategy for a very long time. And he SAT down in, and basically, we should just play a clip here. But he basically said, at the end of his experience, he thinks not only is the best story of Better value, he thinks IT is state up a Better .

product than the vision pro. Yeah, pull over in your car and just look at this man tair r and the list to his.

I think the question is the Better product period. And you know the different companies made different design decisions for the headsets. They have different strength. But overall, quest is Better for the vast majority of things that people use mixed reality for.

And that's a good line, right? Beautiful head too is like lustrous um that's what punched ing other men in the .

face just get the the follow .

you just rocking. Healthier than ever, by the way, you know, makes much largest listed in the risk .

factors with investors.

Yes, so good are made deeply in dmso fighting other humans. Uh, very good anyway. So the point there right is everyone thought, okay, could this five hundred dollars game, eighty five percent of a vision pro? And honestly, in the review, we didn't talk about the quest a lot in our review because they they feel very different. Yeah, yeah. And I think now what zaka burgers and to do is actually make them more competitors.

I don't even know if I agreed with that. I think part of his take, I think, is that they're actually very different things that everybody wants them to be trying to do the same thing and sort of compete on what they can do for different people. And it's like, oh, I want to do X, Y, N, Z, should I buy a quest or a vision pro? And his whole point is kind of, you can't do any that stuff on the vision problem, the quest. And I will see the single funniest thing about this whole video to me was the moment where the camera flips around and IT becomes clear that he's filming this thing on a quest, which just means there is a person sitting there very still just staring at him with the heads set on.

just like you do with the vision .

of the next time we make a video. Only i'm just gonna stare into your eyes the whole time it's going ah but it's it's a big part of what he talks about. Anything is the most compelling part of zarchy k's case here is that for all the stuff people actually want to do in a headset like this, right now, we can talk about ten years now, we can talk about the big, far future of headsets, everybody. But in terms like right now, what people want to do inside of a headsets, there's just more of that in the there's more games.

there's more apps. There are there is you can do three mac windows if you want to. Although setting that up is a big teen nightmare of what like what I call software dongles. You don't want .

it's not great a bunch of apps that just sound like mala bad.

And i'm sending my entire screen to meta. No, thank you, sir. I don't kay, what your hair looks like today? no. Uh, so you know actually sending entire screen but you understand what i'm saying. It's a nightman of weird applications, and mark actually calls IT out like e apple ecosystem is great.

But if you want to play bunch of games or you want to fitness, if you want a controller, the thing you have hie resolution controllers or she's calls out very specifically in the heart of what he's getting at. And I think this is really interesting because you rarely see CEO acknowledge this. He's like we make different tradeoffs in apple, and we think our tradeoffs make a Better product period, not just a cheaper product, not just a Better product in our print point.

He comes back to that over over. And you if you go listen to any CEO ever talk about their products, I talk to a lot of seas and a lot of decoder. Like you made this trade off. How do you make that choice? And like we don't make any trade.

So all all the time yeah all the time, especially apple refuses to acknowledge that they may trade us in the review process, right? Why is the battery over here? And okay, we want to say with and head and that much of a trade off .

because IT is meant to be over here. So like he just wanted in that way.

And it's like there's that one you can avoid, but everything else, they're like these the best displays are made yeah and then markets are like we've go to these displayed and they are all that displays and they have exactly kind of emotion where you expect from other displays. Our lenders are Better that the men are really believes across three pancake lens ers are Better. They have a wider field of view.

So we lose x from the displays, the resolution that apple has in that displays. But we gain x in the lens is i'm not think these are the right tradeoffs, are not these are trade off that make you buy anything. I'm saying a CEO acknowledging the tradeoffs s in a product category is wild, like fully wild.

And I don't if you saw this as a lot of people were like, this is ox bomber moment. H boma was like five hundred dollars fully on subsides of the plan. I like our phone Better. And that there is an element of that .

to what that, oh, no, I disagree. I thought I felt more like .

a Victory Victory OK.

Yeah because I know if we put up A A story this week that I worked with her on about the the visions of these two companies because they both the in game for both of them isn't VR. It's A R right? Like both of these companies are waiting. Eventually the technologies is going to get there and they are going to do face computers. And that's whatever he wants.

special computing after fifteen years OK.

excuse me, say everyone, that's what all the vcs one. Yeah, but but I think like there, their strategy is a much smarter strategy. And I think when you think about how you have to Normalize these products because they are really big, really wild and really, really insane, you have to Normalize that like it's it's going to be require a cultural shift, and meta has is moving with much smarter purpose in that direction.

The apple who is like face computer that looks like ski gog's put in on your face, it's way too heavy you might throw up as will be fine. And in that is like, okay, well, we've got like these glasses that just like glasses, and you can do as much, but you can still do like, you can still like scan photos and stuff like that, which is really, really cool. They have have the V R heads sets that actually like, do V R well, yeah which like I think that's just a Better strategy. I I think I think he's right. And when I was watching and I say, oh, this is him just taking this Victory lap and also making some agreement claims like meat is going to be the open ecosystem.

which is banana I novo build quest or are you .

just announcing that everybody is going to be making headsets for meta O S?

They mean for understand is that you can application.

What matter means is if you build something cool, we will just buy your company. And that's that's an open model .

and is an option stem .

because you get rick in the face of computing. There's apple weird, yes. And there's everyone being like, what if we work together and the next apple being weird?

Yeah that part I was like, oh, I feel like like you had be this whole time. Your hair looks great. You're like you're speak you're saying the things that I really do think about this whole field and now you've .

just like he does keep saying that they will be the open player and we are and it's really unclear.

I like I really want to sit him down with like computer historian to explain him computer histories that he understands that what he is saying is not true.

I am sure as access computer.

he probably does probably, but he doesn't. I think there .

there's just a way of positioning yourself up against the big bad of apple if he's taking. And but I think right now, would they have a sideline ating apps?

yeah. But I will say also to your point, alex, I think one thing i'm really starting to realize is how significant matters lead is just having been at this in public for a decade because again, like me, I go back to the apple watch, you launched the thing and then you wait around for a couple of years for people to tell you what they want from IT.

And then this is your jobs to kind of chase that and figure IT out, right? And apple is good at that generally and does IT very quickly and realize on its developers to do IT for them. Met has been at that for ten years now.

Like the thing where here's a thing on your face is kind of ugly and you'll probably threw up like, you know, that sounds like is the first three ice Price. That's just what I was. And IT turned off a lot of people and we all, you know, hemmed and hot about whether a whole generation was being turned off by their first experience in VR because I was so bad.

But now it's spent out as long enough that it's pretty good at IT. And IT has a pretty clear sense of what people want right now. And I think that's where things like the meta rabon stuff come from.

It's like, oh, people want super immersive and that either like gaming or the fitness stuff, they want to be in another world or they want as little technology as possible. And so they have pushed to both ends of that. And I think you're able to do that.

Where is apple very much just put out a tech demo and we're like, is this anything like it's starting at that road now? And meta has been on IT for a long time. I would say that there.

I think there's a little bit of a danger. The bomber problem in the apple is endless. Yes, in A D, C, focus, the difference.

the difference, all the money in the .

universe is that a mark archer?

G is not sam. yes.

Just just an observation that i've studied these two men very carefully um I think meta is more reacted to consumers in that bomas. Microsoft is much more reactive to enterprise cross oft mr. S in particular was addicted to making the ugly as shit possible.

Yes, there are. Just like it's windows mobile six, five, it's the same windows mobile that evaded all this time. But now this stock launcher is a honeymoon that won't be there. And Carriers can do whatever garbage that is like. This is a good idea.

We made the icon smaller.

This is bad. yeah. An apple was able to for I think there is some meaningful differences here because they have in market with a complete concern product and nothing. I have a quest to have a quite like lots, a quest to is out there some quest three apples coming at this different direction and not something want to succeed.

But I think after two weeks with this thing like the the barriers are are just Crystal clear in a way that the barriers, the question also Crystal clear and I they're gna converge more than they don't but saying, like apple revision classes work, I think is we generous? Yeah and with the watch, they had a huge advantage, which is no one else could make a watch. Well, no, I mean like literally like the iphone does not allow other watch.

Oh.

that's ah you .

like people .

existed. My couple was not allowed to do that.

Yeah.

you'd be like, oh, oh, I H. O, now, we've talked .

enough about the vision pro. I like that. We just spent forty minutes being like everybodys returning this product.

Let's talk about, oh, I did. IT is the most fascinating. IT is apples first.

Big bt, I want to talk about IT. I just want to end on this. I want everyone to this and work and send me your evaluation.

We've talked a lot about my theory of wearable, whatever that is, where the chart is, value on one access. And then like fitly ness, yeah in an a ten x multiplier, if it's on your face, that's as far as i've goten on this. So an apple watch started really fitted with not a lot of value, eventually cross the line and now people really happy watches.

You all have one. yes. Uh, airports not very friendly at all, super valuable. People like them face computers historically below the line, very filthy, enormous social cost, not a lot of value.

Yeah, where do you think the vision pro is on the graph? Send me your graph, just go through. I'm dying to know what you all think of this because that's fillin.

Ss, no, it's value on the the values on the way access silliness on the ex and an a ten x multiply for on your face those that's what I think IT is. There's an entire episode go through this. So i'm just you go back and look at that one if you want more versions of the grab, but just send me your dress.

I am dying to know what you think about the theory of viable bush is about, right? We have take a break. We .

back.

Support for this show comes from the acu, the acl. You knows exactly what threats a second Donald trump term presents, and they are ready with a battle tested playback. The acu took a legal action against the first trumpet administration four hundred and thirty four times, and they will do IT again to protect immigrants rights, defend reproductive freedom, safeguard free speech and fight for all of our fundamental rates and freedoms. Join the aclu today to help stop the extreme project twenty twenty five agenda. Learn more at aclu dot org.

Support for the show comes from crucible moments, a podcast from scope capital. We've all had turning points in our lives where the decisions we make end up having lasting consequences. No one knows this Better than the founders .

of some of today's most influential in Christmas moments.

Let's listeners in .

on the maker .

break events that define the major companies like dropbox, youtube, Robin hood and more told by the founders themselves. Tune in to the season two of crucial moments. Today you can listen at crucial moments, top com, or very listen podcasts. When IT comes to S M B marketing, reaching the right small and medium size businesses can be chAllenging into IT.

S M B media labs gives you the power to do more by connecting with the .

small businesses that need you most with access to an audience of thirty six million, you can target effectively and at scale. By leveraging insight from small business audiences, you can target businesses by industry size, maturity, location and more, and drive growth across new and existing channels like social, programmatic and C. T.

V. Spend wisely and do more with audiences. Taylor, to your business, learn more and media labs into IT not come.

We're back as we've been recording vamping to fill time with the vision pro. Microsoft has been quietly making announcements in the background on a on a podcast.

I believe weird way ever to announcing we've .

been recording a podcast while they have been publishing a podcast. And now our podcast will be about what they set on their podcast does.

Do we now directly compete with the exposed?

Yes, are just one on the podcast .

and said everything the verge that is true and always has been. What is going on the news over there?

okay. So there's been rumors for the last few weeks that microsoft was going to take a couple of games and that are exclusive for the x box and make them not exclusive, put them on the switch, put them on the P. S. five. Fans were not pleased that.

Can you explain that to me? Actually, I have realized in all of this case that I don't understand why people would be so arms about that.

Well, I think if you go and you spend a lot of money on a product and you vest a lot of time and energy into IT and like buying a lot of games for IT and then and you're like, yeah, I don't get like the last of us and I don't get horizon zero done and I don't get all these coop s five games, but I get was IT starfield and and I get see a thieves and then they say, okay, now starfield is gna go off and be on on P S five I would probably like I probably be a little bit so you are like maybe I share .

to just bought a play station and now like why .

did I even buy an x box to begin with? I get because there are like five, six hundred dollars that's expensive so so fiel does not coming to this five but see thise grounded high fie russian pintail IT are coming to the P. S.

Five in the switch um first type I rush and paintings, then C F theeves and graded C F theves is like a really pretty popular x box game where you can like be a pirate and you go play with other pirates. It's cute. It's fun. It's a big like it's almost an M M R P G, but not quite. Uh, these are these are pretty popular games for x box and now they're gonna be on P S five and into the switch.

Can I just say something like this? Microsoft has not actually officially confirmed those four games. What tom tom is as reported in knows that, that those four games, yes, microsoft won't .

confirm those. They're ford games, but they are not they pretty clearly said it's not gonna star filled and it's not ggt nna be the remote inDiana .

Jones video and so it's not any of .

the big games I mean.

yeah but that is a handful of like giggle tic things in its arsenal now. And none of the games you just named are of those like xbox fans.

Please don't come for me but but if you're not like a big hardcourt xbox fans, these are probably not the biggest games in the world. It's it's nowhere compared, nothing compared to like the last of us are in charted or some of play stations exclusives.

I'm horrible of video games and all of these sound like fun names for thieves and economic ook. I'm enticement. I'm save these like .

like rejected muscatels. yes.

Oh no, what type of rush? But was like a .

this been a big deal for the community. Tom actually got to talk with fillers ency about IT. There is a big interview. And what I have definitely been maybe editing the that living at that self maybe I maybe knew a little ahead of the podcast well, was coming or not coming spoilers ah and I thought what was really interesting was he was very vassie in in the interview with us about like what games were coming and what games weren't coming. He wasn't really committed to anything. Um he and when asked specifically about starfield in any Jones, which are the ones I think fans are most concerned about losing that that access to or losing that exclusive access to uh, he said, you know I don't think we showed as an a new industry ever rule out a game going to any other platform, which is you know if you just want to be able to play any game like uni who is bad at games and probably doesn't want to own every system, that's great news for you. You're really indusind in one ecosystem that's less great news because like the council wars.

yeah. So a really interesting thing here that I am hoping you can explain to me. I have four years now assumed that the microsoft strategy is game streaming, right? They're slowly moving to export stream ming.

They bought activision. They they want to be everywhere. And fuel sponsor has said to me like we are bad where the number three player in video games. And so in consoles.

And if you look broadly, all the action is on phones and we got to go there and and that is always thought like a hint, we're going to go do game streaming ing. Now there's the digital markets act. Apple has to open up different stores.

Apple has said they're na log game streaming. So you look at this shift in IT is not that they're not putting x box game pass on the P S. 5。 They're just porting four titles to the P S. five.

Yeah and people were that upset about IT.

That's the part that I don't get. It's like why that's a lot of work. Like isn't that point that we're onna stream the titles over there?

It's not like given that the architecture of these councils now, it's not as hard to work as he used to be because they both run on the like AMD kind of architecture. So it's different and enough that it's like it's not like just point in collection immediately transfer. But but it's not as hard as I used to be.

I think this is all kind of part of showing that they are friendly and that they're not going to create a monopoly in gaming because right now, they own activision blizz, which was like one of the largest game companies. They are effectively one of the largest game companies in the world. Right, right, right.

Like I think tencent maybe in tando are the only thing that might even come close to them. Uh, so just absolutely enormous. And if they want to say, OK no more color duty on PS five in ten years, they can do that. So this nobody.

they ran around the world promising any government officials they would ship call of duty for .

at least five more years, right? So so they're like committed for the next.

I think there like to lords in european countries you've never heard of that have secured a tainan commitment, the call of duty.

And they're trying and like a future lord, they are trying to show how magana mists, right? They're trying to show yeah yeah, we want to be everywhere all at once. But we also don't anna destroy all of our competition because we need .

them to sell games. Man, that is so charitable and so wrong. yeah. Man.

what you read on that?

So we you're probably right, honest, but we we should cut off here because I think we're going to time on the show on tuesday who knows clearly more about what's going on than anyone at microsoft. So tom's going to explain what's going on here. But nei, I would just point you to, uh, the x box one and the thing where microsoft said, hey, here's a console that plays all of your games, but we're doing in in a slightly new way.

And also a different thing happens when you turn on your TV and gamers just about burn the buildings down at my your soft like this business is too big to screw up. And if you're microsoft, you're at here saying games streaming is the future. We're moving these three games you have never heard of and see if theeves over and people lose their minds.

Like microsoft is going to play this the slowest possible way because IT is desperately afraid of losing this little bit of love that IT has in the gaming community, like I do actually do with alex, that there are some reasons to be worried about the anticipations of just running roughshod over the gaming industry, which in theory, microsoft could afford to do, but also pissing off gamers goes real bad for everybody. And microsoft ws that Better than anybody. And so IT is going to take this the slowest IT feels like I can afford to take.

which is why there's a lot of rumors. We wrote a piece this week like tom really thinks a hand telled is coming. I've talked more about IT with David on next week. A shaan also fully wants h he wants to manifest a hand help that's like a steam deck with expose felt in like I am rooting for Shawn because I think that will be cool to but they did see something like unique hardware coming of the tea, some bigger hardware coming down.

The keeps liking tweet.

yeah, he keeps liking tweet about hand tells. And in in this conversation he had with tom, he said, yes, unique stuff s coming.

So like a handheld .

is coming, yes. Is IT gna be like a good hand held or is he going to be more like what SONY like farted out? We'll see. Yeah, sorry.

welcome tom'll be on the show will unpack all of IT. Yeah i'm legitimately confused about why port four games to another console. I'm going if your strategy is .

to be everywhere .

and the problem with phones.

we're going to throw you into the x box. I read IT and just I think the confusion .

I can I interest you in gamers?

Oh no.

what type I rush OK. But they were .

mainly and I think they were more consider about star field, which IT sounds like is not going to be in this initial run. So to be fair, that was the one they were really passionate about because I just came out. I don't do is like this.

but I would bet you ten dollars that if microsoft hatts brothers and was not afraid of the ramifications started, would be in this oh, one hundred percent like microsoft strategy includes star field in the ana Jones being available everywhere IT does.

It's coming. It's just there are gonna be like six months from another way oh, I came out about .

the film or is just like the tip towing in slippers towards the future that he is promising like that's where that here .

hi up on .

the tip .

is exactly oh my god.

hi heels on the tips there. I sent IT all the way to .

work today. That's real.

Am not going to .

finish IT. We're good.

We're good here. I love tiktok that that microsoft in again, time will be on the show. And we'll try to fear what all this means. We should tell a AI briefly before our lightning around by two more people have asked me how to sponsor listing around and the answer is that for all my jokes about taking your money, that on my just I don't know how.

but someone we do here just demo .

in the influencers know how to take money, but we are we just do disclosures and other people being. So we'll figure that out. I promise someone else is going to take your money.

But we try with air quality, and they were going around. We mentioned in the top the show that google strategy is very much we hope over time this makes sense. I would say that my understanding of the g mi product road map right now fits perfectly into overtime. We hope this make sense because they announce german ultra es twenty six a month. And then David, you just read about geri one point five pro, which they like is as good as german I ultra.

what is going on here? So google um in case you've wondered if google is good at naming things now because they decided to name everything germany and that seems like IT made sense. Don't worry, in my friends, google still sucks IT naming stuff.

There are, I think for different product names between the gm I product that you use and the german I subscription that you pay for. There are four different product things. But at any rate.

So german I one point five is basically google new next model. Uh, IT makes sense. Everybody is always working on these next models.

I was talking to sooner appropriate their CEO about this yesterday. And one of things that he told me was he thinks that over time, eventually, these numbers won't matter to people. And all of this suffering just sort of happened in the background. He compared IT to google search, where like search doesn't get new version names, is just kind of get Better over time.

I want to point out the same. Altman said that a million times before announcing GPT four oh short and there three five .

and there three five turbo and the GPT four and now GPT five is apparently tly a thing even though he said he wouldn't matter. Like all of this is instant um but we're going to get to that point eventually. But right now we're very much in this arms race and I think especially the way of to understand the arms race is these two companies in particular OpenAI and google, are in a massive land grab for developer resources right?

Like if if every company on earth is at some point going to have an AI strategy, and at this moment, that's what IT looks like. There are basically two players right now they can give a whole lot of money to, and there is a lot of money in winning that. I think about what a dos did for amazon, right? Because IT was early too, were very good at giving you develop resources in the cloud.

There is now a belief that the market for A I is gonna even bigger and happening and even faster. So these companies are just running as fast as they possible can, and they honestly don't care all that much if the version numbers don't make any sense as as users. But so gm nine one five is coming out and at some point that will just sort of holy replace gi one point out.

Ah and there's the three sizes of there's ultra, which is like the big full model or the epic of the pro, which is the middle, which is the one the most consumer cy. And then there's nano, which is specifically designed to run on people's devices. Google hasn't talked much about nano yet on any of its.

stuff. But that I think interesting piece of bit. The big thing with german I won point five is that its context window is much bigger.

And essentially what that means is you can just put a lot more stuff into IT at a time, uh, when you uh there's a bunch of like weird, complicated math to do, but typically they say it's like three quarters of a word is a token and google context winter for german nine one point five is a million tokens, which is a lot of words you can do hours of video, hours of audio, all kinds different stuff. You can just plugged all this in and then ask questions about to do stuff with IT. And they have they have big ideas about what people might do with this huge context window. And there's welcoming.

So we could put, like, the entire b movie there, and then find out, like, if we were supposed to, to really think there was a romance between a human woman. Really.

that is a great question. Ask computer, yes.

Do you detect love? I really want to let me up.

Difficult for you.

If you do this, please.

please email me. There's a great exchange in David's report on this. Or I think soon I says you could fit the entire lord the rings movie into the context. And there is like that .

means that happened because so without thinking that he was just like IT was IT was as if he had like left the lord of the rings meeting rate for talking just like this definite happened.

It's very good. Um what's passing to me at all? This is yes, there's an armored for developers.

There are still I I think we're hitting the same place to the eye e, and it's like longer time and frame as people hitting on with the vision pro in a slightly shorter time frame, which is like it's really cool, fastest consumer option history. And now we've all just run into the limits. That's right.

Yes, right. And I think developers love IT. You can build new apps. You can certainly go get funding from vcs. You can write code with IT. What I think people really love to do, and sort of everywhere else, it's like what I can do is pretty spam in a high rate and spam has ever been produced before and turn the internet into a feted swap oh.

the the corporate folks love IT yeah because they're like, yeah, I can just have to do all my emails when I have to do a memo. I just have to write the first draft of my memo for me and you're like, well, you shouldn't that that you you should write IT that's important. I I actually .

I think sending corporate emails with yes, I don't actually send a lot of emails and a few years .

on a prefer .

not that part but um but like the idea of the some transaction email is Better written by AI than fine. But like that is a pretty small use case on the grand order of things i'm wanting. Like David, is you look to this model as you played ultra, is you played with the other ones? Do you see that next set of big uses showing up?

No, I think there is going to be an increasing kind of creative say that they are like one of the other things that happened this week was open a eye launched sora, which is its text to video model. And I think the kind of state of the art of stuff you can make creatively, there's a just massive room left to go and there's going to be all kinds of call stuff on that front. But I think we've been talking about on the show for a while now.

When is the sort of novelty of using these A I chat bots going to wear off? And we're there. I think it's happening.

And and one of the other things i'm starting to see all over social is a lot of people who started paying for copilot for microsoft and are now canceling IT, and people are starting designer for german. I advanced with twenty dollars a month. People are starting to go round with you and you look at IT.

And it's like the thing so many people keeps saying about the vision pro is like amazing technology. I I took IT off and kind of never had a reason to put IT on again. And I think a lot of people are starting to feel that way, especially in the sort of one to one consumer use case about A I stuff. And also I think that's why all these companies are going after companies because if i'm already signed up for this stuff through my organization, like you use IT to make IT easier to make charts or whatever.

I mean, that was microsoft al strategy, right?

Like get copilot T S twenty box a month to make change easier yeah yeah.

But you're like A I T guy with endless budget at a big company days .

of this IT budget, who knows? Can see all these unions are contracting. They're not spending lots of money. That to me is like, this is the big gap.

I will say that I recently said the action button on my iphone fifteen pro to open the ChatGPT voices sym just a cheap one three point five, not four, one, three, four. And IT is like, oh, they should just make serious this. Yeah, they should throw syria and they should just make serial this.

IT is revolt ory, when you're like, the other day, we had a reheat chicken wings from the super bowl, and I just asked my phone, and I said an answer to me, was that answer correct? Did IT lie? how? How did IT fluctuate the temperature in the time? IT was fine because the stakes were so low? I, I.

high stakes? No.

but not reheating true. yeah. heating?

yes. That's fair.

Is that because I ask you twice in the first time at three hundred five like this doesn't matter. The stakes are very low here. And I didn't have to troll the S.

O. internet. Yeah in theory. I A theory. And just like, I don't know .

if IT two hundred would you've been like in there like this feels wrong, but i'll go with IT.

That's how we describe the tragedy, to case an old Steven kovar word truthiness. Ss, but if you're comfortable with something that just feels right, I really encourage you to such you see your action.

But so but I actually that's a really good uh, like example of the problem that all these companies are having, right? Like google essentially ripping in, replacing google assistant with german. I for the same reason like this stuff is going to be Better at those things.

Would you pay twenty dollars a month for the thing that you just describe? no. And so there's going to be this like mainstream use case for this stuff that no one will pay for.

And then there is going to be a ton of money, at least that's what these companies are bedding in the business use cases. But to me, that feels like we are quickly hitting something like a ceiling of what people actually want to do with these things day in and day out. Like a million token context window does not make you Better at chicken wings.

IT just doesn't. And so I think the next thing for regular people is going to have to come from somewhere else. And there's a bunch of different ways. These companies are trying to do IT open the eye by making a bunch of tweet to like how IT build its models to try to make them a small or more efficient.

IT does not to think this week called memory, where I can actually remember things about you and what you like in your preferences, so that IT should sort of interactive you a more human and like friendly way over time. That's the stuff that I think is going to be interesting. Just building bigger models to do more high and stuff is like purely a business play. And I think a great that twenty dollars per person per month is more money than most companies have to spend at this moment in time. Know of catch.

Can you imagine twenty twenty dollars a month for like possibly right, possibly wrong, chicken wings reheating instructions?

I mean, I think if you just buy chicken wings and restaurants, you're always it's always really good.

yeah.

If you're chicken wings, bug is twenty box among. It's a gamble every time.

Yes.

here a chicken is a big deal.

They are very important.

I want to talk about the other side of the AI debate real quick. A David, you wrote about robots start txt this week. Sir john and I talked about the copyright battles that are uh, facing all these air companies on decoder.

There's something else here, right? These companies are forging ahead with ever bigger models, ever more use cases, higher Prices in the sort of underlying question of is IT OK. To take all the stuff to make the models remains extraordinary ily unresolved.

Uh, the server soiled ermine case, a group of authors including Sarah sollum mn sewing oki, they just had a setback in their case. All of the claims accepted direct copyright in from which is a big deal, but all the other claims are turned out. The judge seems very skeptical there.

There are some like specific concerns in there that are pretty monkey, so we are have to go into them. But that case is getting idle down. I think the times case against open eye is a little bit stronger, so we'll see, but we don't know if these companies can even do IT like whether this is copy enforcement such that the courts to shut down.

The entire notion of this to begin with, or of the payments that are required to make becomes so high that the business models don't work out. All open question. And then, David, I wanted to about robots, S I T X T, because there's this little handshake agreement of a text file on every website.

In that handshake agreement is like one hand is just crushing the other one. And it's like this thing can't support the weight of IT. I don't think yes.

So I got I got sort of obsess this years ago, uh, when I first started talking to people about google amp for a story I rote, which is basically lake, what is the value exchange on the internet, right? And IT turns out that a lot of the sort of policing of the internet happens in that the robot to, you've got to almost any website, and then just put a slash robot to start txt.

It'll pop up a text file that you can see that basically decides which crawlers from around the web are and are not allowed to code on to a website. So crullers exist for lots of reasons. Many they were from search engines, which are indexing the web.

And already to be able to set search results. Amazon has a crawler that checks for praising around the web for what the government retail extreme in a furious and me is on retail for legitimate business reasons. You might run a crawl to check all the links on your own site to make sure that there are still alive, like there are a lot of reasons to on colors.

And this is like a technology from the early nineties that basically a bunch of people on a mAiling list, including like timber's and mark and dyson and a bunch of like early internet optimists decided is like, okay, you're just going to put up the thing that says essentially who's in and who's out and everyone else who makes one of these collars is going to abide by those rules because we want the internet to work with all cool people. This is going be great. That worked pretty well for a surprisingly long time.

And now it's happening as if you run to the eye e company, you want to get a bunch training data. You know, it's follow training data is the internet. And so you just go to crawl the whole internet, you pull all that stuff you dump IT in and you train your model on IT.

That's how you get recipes, that how you get all of this stuff, like you just based IT on all the stuff that exist on the public of internet. And so now if you person who runs a website or a recipe blog or any number of other things on the internet, you have to go in and decide who's in and who's out with a thousand new crawlers, a bunch of companies of varying levels of decency and sketchiness. OpenAI has been in a bunch of like media coverage about this because IT actually told people how to block GPT bot and promise to abide by IT and all accounts doing so.

A huge portion of websites on the internet, including I believe, all of vox media, blocked GPT bot. Uh then your times did. A lot of publishers have, but there are a lot of things out there that are either too small for now to even be known to these publishers or just don't care.

They just don't have to respect this little tiny text file that has no legal or technical authority. And so any A I that wants to come in just can not just where we are, and we have just like broken this basic given take that the internet ran on for so long. And like I talk to tony double mine at the sea of media, who has been a big proponent of a kicking out the bots in this particular way um and what he's that is basically like we're getting nothing out of this exchange. They're just taking everything from us and telling us that you know it's for the good of society and like screw that, that's not that's not how the internet ork that's not work after. And I think everyone on the internet now is starting to have to make that exact same .

set of decisions in was fascinating is opening ee only made GPT but blocker after they had scraped. I honestly think that they did that so that media organizations and I have i'm not privy to what makes me does at that level. I don't know why they do that and into that, but I pretty sure they did that. So mean, organza companies could block open eye and and and feel like they had some control and then opening, I could go make a deal, right? And we like, oh no, where do take the control away from us?

That I will say that is precisely why I mean, I talk to the open A S chief strategy officer who said basically that exact thing that that is is this is a way to signal that you would like to make a commercial deal and let's do IT and that is A A pretty wild way of of backing into something like that yeah that is not an accident that OpenAI didn't tell people about GPT bot until IT had already been pretty far down the road.

Yeah, because without doing what I did GPT four in in ChatGPT wouldn't be as good as they are. Like that. That is the trade.

But then the question is, who experiences the downside of that? Like is that bad for the internet? Is a bad for the world or is this just bad for OpenAI? Is like that the question .

now yeah and I think individual creators are feeling the pain of this .

very deeply yeah uh.

even when we just write about neat A I tools, we get people who are sort of morally outraged that we would acknowledge that some of them are need because it's built something is built on some taking. And whether or not you think that taking is fair or not is sort of divorced mother is illegal or not and I don't know that anyone is quite figure that out.

right? Somebody needs to pop IT into m VS hole on red IT like it's it's, it's a perfect one, right?

And then you enter all of them into the million token german I field. Is this correct?

yeah. Then we ended to the judges, and we're like, look, we figured that out. The robots figured that out.

They talk to each other. We got this. We know who the ashok is. That means who legally is right?

I keep, I keep coming back to what I I refer to as the n game post yeah which is a person who is like, I love podcast, but I don't have time for them. I just feed them in to A I and it's something and it's like to you just want .

articles go read what .

you want is articles like just go read articles made by people who care about you. It's a very simple, very simple way of getting what you want from the internet read like people would like to read IT is amazing that the broad future of computing is like more reading yeah after all these anyway doesn't matter um I think that the turn for these accompanies for open the eye, for example, you can signal ly want commercial deals with are being sued so we go out, make a bunch of deals. You're kind of admitting that you need the deals and the new york time is going or whoever also suing over I gey stein stability since I look, you know that you should pay money for this stuff, you didn't pay us to begin with. So you're on the that is strategic IT is .

and I think James quan, the chief just of start open, I was going to one of the things he said and this kind of is actually talking up before, is that OpenAI e feels very strongly that ChatGPT should be mostly free for most people for exactly that reason like that the value they believe they deliver back to the world is that by giving to this system, you then get cess to this system.

And the the increase equality of this system is good for the world. And you can have IT, and IT will make your life Better. And I think you can view that is like this stop an black mirror nonsense or you can view that is like a fair trade in the way that google search was a fair trade. But like that is the dynamic that were about to reckon with in a lot of really, really messy ways .

yeah and what is the most faster at all? This mean bring bit, but all back. And google, no one is gonna block the cool. But like no one thinks that should be invisible from the search. You can do IT sites.

probably would. I don't know what was houses .

plus server continues to rock the home back on no one's block. And Alexis plus server, you can block google with some great things. You can block goole search, which Normal do, and then you can block the other stuff.

You can block google eye training. But no one is willing to say i'm so mad at google for scraping all of our stuff. They're are going to black search.

And I think that's when that one flips. And people like IT is worth IT to be invisible to all like the change, change. Yes, we have a break where and come back the lighting around sponsored by you.

Hey, it's lee from decoder with the label. We spent a lot of time talking about some of the most important people in taking business about what they're putting resources to and why they think it's so critical for the future. That's why we're doing this special series diving into summer, the most unique ways companies are spending money today.

For instance, what does that mean to start buying and using A I at work? How much is that costing companies? What products are they buy? And most importantly, what are they doing with IT and of course, podcasts? Yes, the thing you listening to right now, well, it's increasingly being produced directly by companies like venture capital firms, investment funds and a new crop of creators who one day want to be investors themselves.

And what is actually going on with these acquisitions this year, especially in the A I space, why are so many big players in tech deciding not to acquire and instead license tech and hire away cofounder? The answer, IT turns out, is a lot more complicated than that. You'll hear all that and more this month.

I'm decoder with the light presented by strike. You can listen to decoder whatever you get your podcast support for the verge cast comes from the home debo. Hey, it's almost the holidays. And whether you're planning to travel or host, it's always good to have that extra layer of safety security to help ease your mind. And now with help from the hung deepo, you can stay connected and protected with the convenience of smart home security products.

The home depot offers a wide selection of products that afford you easy control and automation of your home with top smart home brands like ring, google, wise and more, from smart cameras with forecasts, surveilLance to doorbell that can be Operated from your smart phone, the home deep boo has at all, whether you an expert or new to smart homes tech, the home depot can help you find what works for you and your home, visit the home debo online or in store and purchase your smart home products to give some piece of mind this holiday season because smart home at the home depot, support for the bird cast comes from the home depot is almost the holidays and whether you're planning to travel or host, it's always a good idea to have an extra layer of safety and security to help use your mind, and now with help from the homekeeping, you can stay connected and protected with the convenience of smart home security products. The home deepo offers a wide selection of products that afford you easy control automation of your home with top smart home brands like ring, google, wise and more, from smart home cameras with four case surveilLance to doorbells that can be Operated with your smart phone. The home deepo has at all, whether you're an expert or you are new to smart home tech, the homekeeping can help you find what works for you and your home, visit the homes deeper online or in store, and purchase your smart home products to give you some piece of mind this holiday season because smart homes started at the home debo.

We're back, general and time magazine said the person the year .

was you yeah and was .

like little mr isn't a real mira that was when prime .

magazines had budget to put mirror on the cover of magazines in every girl to sort america. And the person here is, you was like a foggy, do you like holding their carrots?

Like what .

is all like curve were looking I for milk, not concept .

print ideas RAM yours IT up. That's not as you did.

That's weird. Ah Donald trump has like the fake one, and like this one is real. Me you .

he looks at IT it's like.

that is me. I was for real that I would like all of my lightning around entries are just complaining about streaming the super ball first.

Mine is like, I just find that fascinating. Uh, the big, big turn in the the whole D M. A thing with the european union I message is not found to ba, but is that they all in yeah I I message is not found to be a uh, core platform service so that they're not going to make IT open up, which feels probably right given that no one in the eu.

Well, this is the trade. Apple, yes, they notice ly made the trade of saying we will support R, C, S. And I think this is what they gotten return.

yeah. So so they're free in clear, as are my personal favorite, microsoft dge browser is not considered a core service and uh, being search was found to not be a core service body.

Every from being surge .

go just I really love to that. I was like, okay, I message and then edge and then being not even a beer craters of .

the european union to bring themselves to regulate being .

I want if they just like chuckle there.

like all no ah. One thing that is really interesting in the mix there is apple broke web apps in the E. U. So for a minute IT looked like apple would support what's called progressive. I ABS the iphone. When you have a web APP you can save IT to your homework reen you pushed the button IT loads up in a rapper and IT feels just second old Normal APP this is great. I think this is like in terms of out, that's how I do the verge.

Yeah.

that's how I do the verge, how I do R M, S. When I want to post a quick close, the quick link that just opens up a weber APP. It's in sai. And apple broke IT two bags ago, and I was seventeen and then say anything about why.

And then today they finally released a statement on the developer portal that's like, well, we have to support other browsers and IOS now of the browsers, and as you know, they all have to be equal. So how could we possibly rearchitects all of IOS to support launching a web APP and another browser from the home street? So we just shut IT off. It's like, stop doing moitie compliant. yeah.

Like that was just like like kicking and screaming like that. Just A I F.

I know what platform supports P, W, S and allows other rather android. It's right there. You can just look at IT.

It's just it's .

the most popular Operating system on earth.

Meanwhile, the other browser makers have spent the last few weeks making very clear to everyone that apple has actually, if anything, made IT harder to be a browser maker in the eu now because you essentially have to run many different versions of your APP inside your one APP, and it's just going to make everyone's life impossible. Apple, come. Great job. Apple, look.

we don't tell what this aspect of of companies for, often with three companies for singular entities. There's a real split inside apple right now between the the suits, basically the policy and business folks and the very idealistic engineers who make the products. yes.

yeah. And I think that that this E U. Thing is really pushing on that split in a way that you know apple is a very well run company. They they are mission driven in their way.

But i'm wondering how much of this stuff where it's like a bunch of pretty bad faith responses to a law that design to my computers, feel more computers. You just wonder, you know, like someone had to like write the code to break all the web apps. The eu.

just like furiously like suit, standing over their shelter, just like hate you so much right now. But i'm going to .

write a really good right some lawyer compliance. I like final logger ticket and the germination is is labeled malicious complaints. That's kind of suck.

That's all i'm like on decoder. I always asking on how decisions are ready, but like how a decision actually is implemented is equally interesting to me. It's like someone how to file the gear ticket. It's like pr, dma, break web apps.

There are just three levers in tim cook's office. One of them says, ship the thing. The other one says, buy that company. And the third one just says malicious comply. And he just pulled IT and just like like start flashing all over apple park and that's how everybody knows .

yeah I know there's something we are there that again, we do the thing of companies is like singular entities like there's tim cook in arms, you know like and like tim cook and draw all the arms or never try in arms and the arms like who are you? You made a messaging out, uh, but these companies are tens of thousands people, if not one hundred thousand people, when they're at their biggest and they are not singular in that way.

And I this is the sort of thing that I think I get, that apple's very man of the europeans. My caution is this is a sort of thing that breaks a very idealism to culture, because you have to make everyone believe that you are totally right. yeah.

yeah. And this little move, which is not a, is a very cynical kind of move, is is actually somehow idea turn. That's just complicated. Yeah, right. I basically did lighting around under your lighting.

We have this like .

a big .

round.

Um my well, i'm to going .

to ask for shock when we start complaining about super able so I come back to that my was just there was this news this week from a watcher journal al report that walmer might buy a video yeah which I just find deeply fascinating um and also kind of to be a bummer. I feel like IT wasn't that long ago that we thought video had a chance to be a really interesting .

forward thinking player .

and was that .

twenty eleven we .

launched I was supposed to buy the twenty seventeen. Then after that I just kind .

of started to go .

to came they're like TV and then they disappeared and .

then I could not get them to take the TV make car at one point. Yes, yes.

that was a truly weird that I love company.

but I don't. But remember china eleven, I rote the profile. Vio c.

Memri was the CTO. He was a lot of fun to remember. They put out windows laptop up, saying they were bone stock.

Oh yes.

that was great. All that was great. And they kept down the tree to would expand by doing like fan service in the TV business with third business.

Math is now the city of ro cameras. And I think video is just like, really they tried so many interesting things. Member, when the tvs were just can cast.

Yes.

yeah, I have one of those a boy.

but that's what's everybody wanted in this year. They had to tap.

That was the remote, right? I know.

and I don't know where IT is.

but this is what I really revealed. Property.

my house.

Everyone in our audience is like, I don't want a mart T, V. I just want to panel. And in the exception thing.

but had no remote. We wanted remote. I tell me the of the volume without me to charge my.

Everyone is like, I just want to a, do T, V, and they ship that. I want that. Yeah, I want give me this point .

the day the update came and I like, I didn't, I must come months in advance and I turned that TV on because I like my best brave TV I turned IT on. I say, oh, my visio is smart now and I was much more usable and then I was very upset because I like, that wasn't the promise yeah omit the revealed preferences.

man. Everyone wants to run some weird data tracking smart the Operating, uh, so two billion dollars.

one more with you yeah and I just feels like that a lot of money also, uh, to basically improve its house spread of tvs, which is essentially what walmart would be doing. I would remind you that its existing housework and is called on with two ends. So I would spend two bill to not have on with two. And as my first spend .

of anything like visio was kindly got embodied by TCL and in high says in the last few years .

in the budget TV market. So it's can you what a bleak statement though the fact that that is true .

and that is tra go from like IT was such a good company because, okay, get the T V in and IT wouldn't necessarily be like like you would have to fdle with that, you'd have to mess around, but then you could look really, really pretty. And uh, holy crap, I spent like half of what I could to spend on an LG and I have a great looking TV. And now that's just not quite the case more.

Now the whole T, V business is collecting data on people who watch you while you put up your webcam into living. Yeah, video has been doing that.

Yeah, like via video was a really a thought leader in that department for a while there. Unfortunate for all of us.

Well made the T. V. P. yes. yeah.

Was the essentially subsidize. And roku came and was like, we can do a Better because our our Operating system is actually usable. And and that's why roku like partner with hysan. That's why they partner with with TCL. And and now roku is this really dominant force in advertising and in tvs in visio off in the quarter being like let go, I blame for everything.

co. Also came to people and said we have an advertising business that will give you a cut of and that has become a business for walmart that he thinks he can do more at like it's just all this is a lot of money being thrown around for big deals and big companies. And none of IT is about making good telex and that sex.

Toni watches you.

Well.

I the camera and I had meeting .

with that. T. V, also. great.

We're done messing with the features of the television.

Did you have like, good, put web back at box?

The website was like too quickly discarded. I I ve got a draw that I just think of is the e way store yeah and it's like maybe one day, where is that web to open the e store?

Speaking of let's complain about super able.

all right, I have a lot to say. This sort situation, IT is an embarrassment that in america, on the most wash wall ever, lord, where amErica sweetheart did something when this call I M F N super bowl, actually, can I just say this, the universe of video clip of them running to other, after all, and each other. And then finally, the clip that came here, and like, I ve thank you for coming.

I appreciate you. Thank you flying halfway on the world. And then he says, was an electric IT was unbelieved. I have asked back you if he was electric fifty times a day since i've seen an x lib like I like point the company like was the electric easily the best thing come out of the entire Taylor's we've it's just constantly asking about your things. She's like no SHE SHE doesn't think .

IT was unbelieved shot down mediately .

anyway so uh, you will not streamed in four k but kind of stream for k so para plus I think David, that's where you .

watched IT I I.

I watched thirty minutes of IT.

Uh, they only gave a forecast stream to cable companies, so nothing direct from C B S. So if you have cable or direct TV, you could switch to a four K C B S channel, which was upscale, ten D P H D R. So already looked weird. Uh, uh, one of the most viBrant cable companies, amErica is youtube. To youtube TV you can pay for the fork out on which I D turned off of ages ago because I was not worth IT. Um so I paid the ten box for four k for the month uh and I go to watch IT in the bit rate keeps crashing on youtube TV just like i'm watching my router IT starts in IT like yeah fifteen or twenty year whatever the fork stream would be at not even at high. It's like eight and just like just drop like a still and .

I kept switching .

back to the ten A D P feet on cbs and look great. So internet and .

everyone told .

me and I looked .

beautiful. They explore, explain what illegal holding .

is and I believe, uh, just a disaster. And some people thought I was working great. But I both on threads like this, bitter keeps crashing and too many people agree with me yeah, that there was a bad experience for me to think that I was like my internet.

I switched from the apple TV youtube TV APP to the android p and the SONY TV. Assuming google, you know, look a good gatekeeper, yeah, with preference its own service and its an Operating system. IT worked for slightly longer work for five minutes for crashed, but then crushed. Well.

we hope you will make sense over time.

Is max sports or whatever this new super sports streaming service called is I am going to save the super ball is to be saved.

We know like .

save IT from bad's streaming experiences. I just think .

IT is fundamentally embarrassing that we as a nation cannot figure the if you go to watch soccer in in england and they're like it's ten four k fees anywhere you want to be, it's free and also this free health care .

and like what are we do as you said that I saw like an american flag drop .

behind you and I just like heard the american music. I most patriotic .

thing .

I said in a while, you have to figure this out.

I also speaking of orts, I I made A A big gaff last week because, uh, I I mistakingly said that fox sports channels are owned by disney. And that is only true. I believe argentina in some parts of south america.

this is IT is not .

owned by disney in america, where IT is owned by.

yeah, it's it's .

still on my ripper, forgot. But but disney does owit just, just not in this country. Sorry.

I would just like to say two things about that. One, we screw that up.

And I was come is very embarrassing.

I was noit two IT makes this whole thing even funnier because IT now is even more like hou is doing direct competitors being like, let's be best friends. I'll figure this out yeah, it's tasted.

It's so good. And if it's also very funny, you go and look at fox sports on like the wikipedia page, this is current owners and there's a list like six owners depending on what region you're in.

I was like.

that's good help about come on fox like just one company on the company please you that's .

really breaking of his employee yeah and probably you need fox ports because you have to have fox ports because of football.

I am I.

but the cable companies for the real thing, they leverage each other. X and I fear from the fox, he is on its own popular, but they are a bundle deal yeah are unstoppable. You get football about taking the other thing that's that's not a choice for you um which many cable Operators have always sort like been aware of yeah that's amErica and all of that we could stand for. How was here on plus I know you watch them.

okay. I would just like to briefly complain about this. I try not to use the verge as a place to be annoying customer service things.

But about plus sucked for meter in the super bowl and a very upset of about IT. So for a while, uh, IT just didn't work at all. I would throw up like a mysterious, a bad thing happened, we don't know, try again.

And then I would try again. And IT wouldn't work. But eventually IT worked and and actually stream fine and looks fine. But this incredible thing of happening, which is that the audio would get about eight seconds ahead of the video. And so literally every single time the play would have just finished before I saw the play.

So gym nance would be like a shouting about how brain and I, you caught IT for twenty yards rate as they're snapping. I made IT so unpleasant to watch this game. IT was like, I literally stopped looking at IT for a while.

I am going to listen to this like it's radio. And tony romo's just going to say nonsensical things that mean but IT was just I kept I would like try to pause and you can't because it's live and it's illegal to pause things or something. I would go out of the APP and come back in, and IT would work fine, and then go back to being off about the same amount.

I rebooted my T, V. At one point. I did the whole roku reboot at one point.

That's bad. H, you're a rock. U, see.

there was your problem, those letters bouncing at you when you want to watch T, V. Thank you.

Oh my gosh. You like you get .

your food in front of yeah, i'm just watching this letter .

about and rebate to rock you and you're just trying to get anyone else in the room with you. It's like taunting you.

yeah. I also think this was also a little bit like paramo was getting back at David, particularly because .

he makes one of how I enjoy the like, we're square now paramo. This is Sherry red stone harder.

Me was the number of people responding to my complaints about streaming sports internet to I U. I did not dig out in china with yeah teen people in my own. I got switched Operating systems. We're not doing in ten other runs, right? We did watch to have time show at the low bit rate because I couldn't switch IT to the .

other stream in the middle.

Did you watch about pml plus? Yes, yeah. So I like the genius that I am opened up paramo plus after one of my many reboots, clicked on the thing that said the football game.

And IT took me to a separate channel where they were talking about the foot all game. I was like, oh, this is just a half time show before the thing. And then and my wife gets a text from her friend and being, like, over you watching, I sure he's sick.

And i'm sitting there telling her that IT must not have started yet. And IT turns out that when I clicked on football, IT didn't click on football. I click on something else for me and didn't. So I missed like three quarters of us. Sure, because I didn't select the thing that .

I was supposed to sly. You can watch IT on the apple TV.

You do a great David.

I'm still angry.

I feel like a lot of your choices .

or your fault. And I I miss that.

I didn't see the role skits.

So IT was like the other .

kids were sick. Can I just say that was electric? I wanted to do a quick utmost music update everyone.

Uh, we install the big computer. Yeah, I has. It's done.

Or if you've been this in first since september when we moved into a new house in the background, he's been construction sounds every time I record for my house because we've just been renovated. Uh, it's done now. Only two things need to be done, get done.

But that is done and the tvs are done. And we have a five point, one point for utmost system. It's it's cool.

Yeah, I like IT. And so I text a friend who believes in almost music more than I do. I said, this is as much of a chance I can ever give this bond GLE.

And he sent me a list of things. Listen to, uh, render maxus memories by death punk. Uh, the dual epa record, uh, bunch other stuff inside.

I listen to IT. I was also told that amazon music is Better and the code is Better than apple. So I had, i'm doing my best really run .

in integrant. Two things .

i've discovered. One, the only idea anyone has is putting percussion accents behind you like someone someone rings a cow about and it's like behind you like like every song with anything like that like a ton film that's going around you and that's that's what we've got yeah we've solved that problem like in the manual of how to remix the song for attach. So I, if there's any sort of percussion accent behind, get IT back there. Two, and i've been joking about this for, I want to say, over a year in the utmost remix, have come together by the beetles.

George Harris .

and snakes up playing, playing.

This is your dream you been waiting for.

The low sneak was IT.

No, yeah, it's at the very end. There's like a little, just like a little good, hard. Like, yeah, happening. Come together. And IT starts behind you and then IT comes in front of you.

He was in the room with you.

like each successive one gets closer and closer, and then it's in front of you at the end. And understand I listening this like a eleven forty five pm alone. Just cracking up, just losing my mind.

This is funniest thing. That's habit. It's just like me reminding, come together her over and ever get me like, no, that's real.

It's a very good I encourage everyone to listen to IT that we we're done here. The at most has been completed. You have solved IT IT actually happened. It's very funny. It's just deeply, meaningfully funny.

Uh, if you know of any other songs where the guitar player sneaks up from, please let me know IT is my now I go to demos on, dare I say it's electric. We've got in the show time, we will be on to talk what's the action news that happened with microsoft soon? Um we are now in the main youtube channels to go in there.

Uh, I want to call that we started the second episode of decoder. Uh, so we had two every week. Now we on mondays we do the big interviews, ceos and so on uh and on thursdays, uh, we run explainer with third reporters and other friends, the show just for a big topics this week, AI and corporate at law, which is bringing up sir john, who is wonderful to good one.

And it's like IT, anyone who has been the thing to us rest and really about .

that will enjoy that one. And then, David, you ve got a big right to repair story on the tuesday episode of version.

yes. So wilpon or new producer has been a running around basically trying to figure out what in the world all of this rate to repair stuff actually means uh, and he's going to spend a bunch of time this year telling a sort of different stories from different parts. The ritter pair world.

And his first one is coming on tuesday. So the episode is going to be that and tom, it's going to be fun. Episode h definitely stated.

will just going to fix up. So male him, you're broken.

The of this is definitely will opens a repair shop like there's just no question that's not me. Mac.

finally, finally, you are on one of those those key Oscars in the mall. The change about it's always been .

our dream and .

the first sponsor to the living room. We can't, after shocks, the shock ways let us know verge chest of the verge dock on that's that's very chest.

And that's IT for the verge cast this week. Hey, we'd love to hear from you. Give us a call at eight, six, six verge one one.

The verge cast is the production of the virgin box media podcast network. Our show is produced by hand rer marino and leade James. That's IT. We'll see you next week.

Support for this episode de comes from A W S. A W S, generate A A, I gives you the tools to power your business forward with the security and speed of the world's most experienced cloud.

Hey.

it's slim from decoder with the liberal. We spend a lot of time talking about some of the most important people in taking business about what they're putting resources to and why do they think it's so critical for the future. That's why we're doing this special series diving in the summer, the most unique ways companies are spending money today.

For instance, what does that mean to start buying and using A I at work? How much is that costing companies? What products are they buy? And most importantly, what are they doing with IT and of course, podcasts? Yes, the thing you're listening to you right now, well, it's increasingly being produced directly by companies like venture capital firms, investment funds and a new crop of creators who one day want to be investors themselves.

And what is actually going on with these acquisitions this year, especially in the A I space, why are so many big players in tech and not to acquire and instead license that can hire away cofounded ers? The answer, IT turns out, is a lot more complicated than that seems. You'll hear all that and more this month on decoder with the live presented by strike. You can listen to decoder or ever you get your pocket.