#AIS: Pear VC’s Mar Hershenson on making successful founders
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Next up is marr hersh's son, who's going to talk about larch pressure. Come on out. Law mars is going to talk about creating successful family.

We often. Thank you.

man.

Well, well.

I have a very positive and optimistic park, maybe a little barrier in general. And we smart and one of the founders of pair we see, and I am very fortunate, I actually work with many startups. I've worked for the last decade with hundred plus startups.

They're worth over one hundred billion dollars, and they all have one thing in common. When I invest, there's actually nothing. I'm the first check. There is no product, there's no customers. There's just the founders.

So IT is no surprise that I often wonder, are these founders born? Are my cards dealt as soon as I invest in one of the founders? Or is there anything I can do to change them? That's a big washing.

And I think many of you would say founders are born. Take, for example, palmer lucky he's talking tomorrow. He was a protege.

He created the first prototype of the oculus rift at seventeen, and he sold the company to facebook at twenty two. Clearly, there's something special about him or melani parkins. SHE started her her first business at fourteen, then at nineteen went on to build the largest year book business in australia.

And now he runs one of the most successful startups. And then elon mask, I don't think I need to say anything. He's definitely someone special, something in his DNA, right? So you wouldn't be surprised.

Many people ask me what makes a good founder? And there's a bunch of characteristics you can google leg. People come up with a bunch of things like resin, resilience, ambition at sea on.

And in fact, there's some research by academia that shows that people have some in ate property. So researchers at northeastern survey, a hundreds, hundreds of entrepreneurs, and they counted that forty two percent of them had started a business as a kid. So actually, that's a good hint for anybody make an Angel investments may be it's a question you can ask.

Now there's also data that shows that founders can be made. And while there are thirty seven percent of founders and repeat founders in companies today, fifty nine percent repeat founders are in the top unicorns. So that means at least you learn something from your first experience.

So IT would be reasonable to believe that there is some relationship about, you know, what's your chances of being successful to how you're born. However, I do believe there is some form there, something you can do, right? There are some energy or some modification that would put you up in that chart.

And I think the wider ero shows that the early parts of that chart, you need a lot of effort. And in fact, this is what i've learned from being an investor roughly. And this are all rough numbers out of the ten companies we back two will fail no matter what we do.

That's just almost our destiny. And Jason wrote a blog post in twenty fifteen. So that's a long time ago that's titled you don't have what IT takes to recommend you're reading IT.

And basically, the summary is some people just don't have what IT takes. IT would takes so much effort to change them that you might as well give up, right? okay.

So out of ten companies we back to, we will succeed no matter what you know. Ask people in venture like to take credit um the truly the founders, there's a percentage of founders that work independently of us. We back door as early all this picture of their founders.

And I can tell you that tony, shoot the CEO would have made IT with or without any of his investors. And then there are six companies that I think we can influence. Okay, there's something we can do.

And the question is perhaps, what can you do with that sixty percent? How can you make them more successful or maybe Better? If you are at the top ten percent, can you accelerate their success? That's a big question, and that's what i'm really passionate about.

Can you create more successful entrepreneurs? And why is IT important? Why should you care? I think I think this is the right audience. You don't have say there are many numbers to show that having more entrepreneurs is good for the economy. Um you can read them, but just more entrepreneurs means a Better world.

So the question is how can you build this entrepreneurs there a magic machine where you can actually take a regular founder or regular person and outcomes the successful founder. okay. So at the risk of being a latest, I am going to say that one of the closest machines of entrepreneurship, stanford university, and the numbers actually show IT.

Ten percent of unicorns have founders that attended its stanford. And what's even more, in the all in summit, I actually went through all the linked dance. Forty percent of the speakers attended stanford.

And I think all of us have started something, whether is five thirty eight like nate or venture firm or companies, multiple companies. So there's some special gene, right? And the question is what the stand for half that other people don't have, right? It's a higher ed institution.

So for sure you're going to go and take some classes, gain some skills sets. They put you around people there like you, and they have a brand. So you have access to capital network at sea.

On having been there though, I will tell you that the skill set doesn't quite matter as much. You can go online and learn some of that, but your peers around you and the next degree around you actually really, really matter. And in a way, what these people are doing is transforming your character.

And I can tell you that, first hand, just imagine yourself, you may be a founder and investor. I don't know. You are dropped in a world where you basically are surrounded by people that are constantly thinking about starting new companies.

This is smart people. The ambition is very, very high. There is innovation, almost breathing everywhere, and earning out is very OK, right?

So by doing this throughout years, you actually become one of them. And your peers are really fundamentally changing your character. You become somebody that starts to believe in themselves. You can do IT.

Uh, you learn basically to expand your own ambition, right? You may think one hundred million exists is good, but if you go to stanford, you know that's not good enough, right? So you're setting your own bar. It's a really interesting process.

And the question is, are there other machines like this? Or is stanford is the only way to do IT? But the good news is there other places that do this, or are the other forms of doing this, I would say, and one of them perhaps, is the papal mafia.

I think a lot of them running around here in the next couple of days. You all know that they started many successful companies tesla lig in power from youtube. L yr etta etta right? Um there's something magic about having been there at that point in time.

I haven't researched them and I don't have that much direct contact. But according to their lacy, who was a journalism that he's spent a lot of time researching them, SHE concluded there was the confidence that they gain when they were there. Now, i'm not sure, but maybe in the q na, they will reveal the secret.

There is other movies this one are more familiar with. This is rapped. Rapped is a company that was founded in two thousand and fifteen.

So not that long ago in colombia, and IT really transform the latter m started environment. There's been one hundred plus companies created by rapper employees. It's crazy.

Even almost fifty in colombia, IT almost literally changed the country, which is a big deal. I have the privilege of working with a few of these founders, and there's something common in them. They all have this sense of ambition that you know super faster growth.

It's it's really interesting how they almost cut from the same cloth. So there are other places, and I think we had the mayor here earlier, I guess he would claim that my amazon, its way to doing some of that. So there are places.

So I want to tell you about a couple of experiments that are personal to me, that i've been running and hopefully will inspire you to do something on your own. okay. The first one is I teach a class at stanford is a start up simulation class.

You have to, for one sack, forget, as at stanford, i'm actually taking up to other colleges as well. It's not your usual class, okay? So it's actually not your usual class in the sense that I never lecture.

There is no lectures for me. There's almost no communication from me, so I digin this class. For six years, we will take eighteen. These teams have four to five people, and you cannot have a start up when you come to this class. In fact, you must be way earlier.

You only have an idea or you may have a couple of ideas, but if you have something that you've been working on for a while, you're automatically disqualified. okay? So everybody that comes in knows very, very little.

Um and then what the classes is designed to do is to just maximize your peers in our action. I believe that that's the way that you could create founders. So how do we do that first? Were very lucky that I can actually craft the class.

So even within stanford, you have to get admitted to this classes, only twenty percent acceptance. So i'm able to figure out who do we want get in. And then the trick is to force each of the teams to present to each other every week.

And I know that sounds really simple, but just by doing that, you're action motivating and teaching by example. And the results are pretty incredible. We actually have one to three companies per year that gets started.

I think we have two unicorns. There are six hundred million capital rays. And I think what's really, really interesting is that every year i'll gets some pretty nerdy PH c student that goes off to be a successful founder.

So is very impressive. And this one, which is really interesting, when I first started, twenty percent of the kids where females and I said, well, I bet we can shape the class. So throughout the years, with an increasing female and roll, and I can tell you that the results have not changed. We actually now have more female founded companies, and this is actually something I care about. So I want, thank you.

okay. So this takes me to my second experiment, which is actually more successful and has nothing to do with stanford OK, and there's no stanford involved. okay. So um about a year ago, a year and a half ago, I decided let's get a group of women together artificially.

And again, the same idea, these women cannot be founders, okay? These are women that are just high potential, okay, and would actually have thirty to forty women for cohorn. We've done IT twice and the goal is like, hey, and we teach them about being a founder, crease our confidence or ambition, the risking at a, so how do we do IT same thing?

The first thing is we inspire them with great leader. So we would bring women that are successful in their own right to tell them that IT is possible to be like them, right? I think in many OK, we just lacked that role model.

And the next is we force them to connect with each other. So sometimes is talk, sometimes is funny bands or dinners. We even had a manure petit lar session.

The point is that can you get them to talk to each other? And the results are literally insane. So we had seventy eight women through the process.

I think theyve incorporated forty five plus companies. Thirty five of them have raised more than a million dollars, and they're locked by people like skoal and recent paradigms, agent flight and of course, pair. Um so I mean incredible numbers.

These are not regular numbers that you would see in a random group of people. And I think again, it's important because I think we have something to say about what. Thank you about what the next generation looks, right? I mean, it's for all of us in the audience.

Two percent of all companies have an all female founder team that is very crazy if you can about if you can do the numbers. So um no, I think perhaps Richard branson said IT Better. Everyone is born an entrepreneur and everyone has the potential to learn to be an entrepreneur is just that not everyone gets the opportunity, right?

So I think my class this about making those opportunities and I will say that you, as an individual, have your first responsibility about doing that, right? You have to create opportunities for yourself. And I would say the most important, to surround yourself by the best people.

So you have to play up and chAllenge yourself. And sometimes, uh, you know, people don't go to places that have the best people because they have a um the worst job at the company. And that's the wrong attitude. You should go to whatever the best people are so you can learn to transform yourself. Um I have two very practical pieces of advice that I gave my founders first.

This is very simple, but you can actually read you can read a lot um one of my founders, I drew with the founder drop box how he became a great CEO and he said I read A A lot but then I have actually gone and look at our top ten percent of our portfolio. And there's one thing those ceos have in common, they are reading machines. So I don't know if reading will make you a great C E.

O, but I know I won't hurt you. So and the second one is get a coach. I say even Steve jobs had a coach.

If you don't have money to get a coach, get a peer group because again, it's a about character building and I think what investors can do so if you're investor in the room, um I know it's a very ego high business, but IT is not about us. You know we are not the one to make the companies. I think our role is to have create opportunities for our founders to grow and that actually will help the folio.

And I think for society, perhaps we should have an early intervention program, much like a gifted program in schools. If you detect that there are kids that have that gene in them, why not pull them aside and create an early intervention program? And i'll give you an analogy, which you will understand.

And from barcelona, spain, my fellow country woman is once iraq A I. Yes, he was a great Opera singer. And of course, today probably i'm too old to become a great oppor or a singer, but perhaps I wouldn't.

I would have had some chance, right, maybe just in Operating the bathroom at some point, if I had been taught early on. So that's the thought. And you know, just imagine a world where you can actually increase the total founder potential by just ten percent, or even shape who becomes to be a founder. So with that, I guess i'll go to the q na.

20米。

In the middle.

You're in the middle. That's amazing.

What a great talk. amazing.

This is very intimidating.

I know. But somehow the four of us are going to get through IT.

IT was an incredible talk. somehow.

God, you're good.

I have to say, you know, we're watching the talk back stage and the nodding that we were each having and you collectively, we've invested in, I would say, closer to a thousand companies now and we're nodding. And thank you for putting my blog post up there from years ago. You don't have what IT takes.

And I just realized, wow, one of the fundamental problems we have, and I think having David here from the paypal mafia piece volumes, one of the fundamental problems in entrepreneurship is that you pointed out is people have to see IT in order to to be in. And you know, when you look at what happened at paypal, i'm really interesting hearing David creswell cable on this. They got to see each other at stanford, and forty percent of those speakers, I have been to stanford here at this event.

I didn't even know that doing statistic. But IT seems like the fundamental problem we have in society, you can expand. We were talking about how the mayor being are.

You can do a question. Just the rest of.

But this is the fundamental problem. We need people to understand that entrepreneurship and opportunity in this country is available to one hundred percent of the people here. They have that opportunity, but because they don't see someone like themselves, a woman, a person of color, a person of a woman who is a personal color, they need to see IT to be IT. That's the problem isn't IT.

Well, you summarized that really well. Allows you to do the talk next time. Yes.

you when you started with this program, what was your goal? What did you think was going to happen?

Honestly, I didn't think I was gonna be. I didn't think that conclusion was in A B S. As big, right? I mean, if if you get twenty percent of women to start a business, that would have been amazing, but we're getting almost, I would say, sixty percent of them or seventy percent of them going off and starting a business.

it's crazy. I mean, when you take both of those two programs together, the the results are pretty crazy. They're pretty crazy, yes. Um so okay, take IT out of the stand for context for a second. Um how do people pick a city you know you you're in since anadi, what does IT mean to have a peer group in a network that, yes, can create or catalyze like a paye pal like mafia there or even if IT in miami or an L A or wherever you are, that seems like a really hard.

It's a really hard problem. So lucky i'm Young enough that i'll be.

but you may make that a little too right.

I think you need that. You know it's not just enough to get a bunch of people together, right? You have to see IT the right way.

So so I said, you know, even for the female program will get hundreds of applications and we have to go on interview everybody and see who can have hypotension al, right? So again, there's a little bit of the choosing of who goes into that program and then you can shape them. So again, is that curve if you are too far to laugh and your job is really, really high.

I used to probably once a week, read business insider or insider, and then I stopped about seven months ago. No, maybe like in the last few months. And i'll tell you why I thought that was for two reasons.

There was this article that they kept running, basically bashing the founder of glass and to me, just didn't make any sense because it's like there are lots of people who you go through trials, tribulations, that started ups. And when you read about her journey, IT didn't seem particularly different than anybody else. You try products, some of them work, some of them fail. You learn and you move on. But they would run IT and they were .

just hammering, hammering.

hammering. They did IT with the way away luggage thing, which was .

the crazy world.

Yeah, she's like, work harder.

Let's make this company success.

yeah. Well, I mean, I think that .

can I give you more equity?

Well, I think honestly, that happens even to me board meetings. I look, no, i'm not a asked him a bitch, some mary of the situation.

Welcome to the club where .

i'm not like a bitch but .

that's why I stopped reading .

because I was like, this is really ridiculous because what is a telling people? And then separately, they kept running this ad, promoting this company called the rebo, which last week got A J sapo for selling ata all illegally to people. And so it's like this is the imbaLance that you see when things are presented that don't really make a lot of sense.

There is a term for in the industry, and I didn't come up with the term chicks for clicks. And so they will look for a female founder and no chicks for clicks for chicks, as in A M A word for female chicks for clicks. They're all trying to get clicks. If you go after a female founder, you're going to get ten times .

as many colleges are. Really.

it's just more exciting.

The third story, I think like was such a great example of that. I was like a failed biotech company. I'm not saying that there wasn't fraught and stuff that happened there, but man, I mean, the way that that that escalated the story line yeah knows as well.

I mean, it's a founder plus a female found her, you know, a founder misbehaving quote on a do the wife of the .

founder of we work is more famous and some .

circles he seemed more talented. I'm curious what your questions are for David about the magical moment of the paypal mafia.

What was the secret was like being .

the seventh most important guide, paypal.

It's now.

the night is clearly the, you try .

that he didn't work.

Don't try.

don't try. Result IT. Now you had your .

chance on the pot.

but that was brutal. I apology for the entire fan .

base for free. I'll tell you something. Every guy on this stage, no one will ever tell them what I said, because everyone works form or wants money from them. So we can only do IT to each other. We can.

Only do with today. So the the answer is that at paypal, we recruit our friends to work at the company because literally nobody else like was willing to come work at this. He started up, Peter, recruit his friends.

We gone to college with stanford max. Recruit his friends from U. F. I. That's how the initial team was recruited through friendship networks. But IT wasn't like this was some exclusive club, is just that nobody else wanted to be a member.

And so I kind of say at facebook, early days, that was exactly like that as well. It's like we had like really qualified people from great schools, but IT would not be the people that you would have thought. It's like the folks that like spout of microsoft, you couldn't succeed in all of a sudden.

We were like o or like boss used to teach zx C S. And it's like why don't you just come in this like the ta of the class? IT was not. He was a very right tag.

The trust make everyone because you'll knew each other from before. Did the trust give everyone like a stronger sense of like being vulnerable and developing themselves Better? Because I do see like a lot of see a lot of these companies and everyone, it's all like it's like you see your early stage companies and it's very political. Who's going to ask? He's not because you really trust each other.

You never work the other well, let you know each other. yeah. What i'd say is that you would think that the friendships would would make IT like this sort of calm, friendly environment. Papal was actually a very frictional contentious environment.

And but I do think there is a trust element to IT, which is we were constantly debating what the truth was and what we need to do and what the big rise of the business were. And so we were Young. In fact, Peter, when he hired me, he told so many other people on the team, look, I want to hire David.

I need someone hear I. Can you up? Meaning, like he did enough to worry about hear my feelings. You could just say what he really thought, and we could have an open conversation about what we need to do as a company. Even if .

I meant yelling, that's what? No something about a lot.

You can I can ask you guys a question more. And David, you use rapper. So the last time I was here, miami, was to meet the rapper founders.

And I spent a couple of days with them. And I came always stunned, kind of like what you said. I didn't realize that was that extensive, but there is a really special culture there. Yes, payout obviously how that as well. But do you guys and don't take this wrongly, but do you have to have somewhat more of bounded outcome for than these networks to really explode? Meaning if you look at a google or a facebook or even a microsoft, when companies become almost too successful, IT almost just locks these folks in and the incentive to go off with that tool, can the peer network goes to zero because you're just too incentives?

Just a great point.

right? People make money, retire actually .

here totally right. The companies that they come from up to be a little hard. I don't think labour was easy.

right? No super .

hard yeah. Um and when it's hard, you learn to be you know to overcome hard things and the whole company learns if there's brutal, honestly, right? If I hand not top and you think it's alright, know what he learns.

But if you do, you do. And actually I think that the rate of success of people I came out of founder of google, relatively speaking, is not that high. Not high, is not that high because everything works and .

everything offends everything easy.

but no favorite. You run. He's a good. But you're saying the google people are, to be clear, that very soft. They just never, never learned. They never .

learned anything.

never learn that this actually thing. There are more uniforms founded by x paypal people, then x google people. Even though at the sort of the papal office, if you defined as the pri po group of people who worked a paypal, there were only a couple of hundred in the bay area where as google .

had thousand my theory on this having observed IT the early days of google the the, the the organization grew the success of the company was expended sial out of the fucking gate I mean, like more than most companies we talk about nowadays. Um and as a result, all of the success was baked in. The monopoly machine started rolling right away.

So then the higher started being safer, higher people that could be more analytical people, that could be more execution and to not risk kers. And so a lot of people were hired and I forgive I want to call, but forgive me for saying, but all the stanford people who um basically had always done really well in the S T. Got great grades.

They're always been successful. They're always know, been given that dance up your awesome, you're smart, come here and do this job. They weren't the risk takers.

They weren't the people who were willing to take risk to fail. And so the orientation was built, a culture of people that just took, didn't take a lot of risk, execute. And then those people, they have this false sense of entrepreneurs success by working at google, because they were already on a rocket ship.

Then a bunch of them left and try to start companies, and they were like, oh yeah, you just build an APP. And one hundred million people use IT. Dude, failure, failure, failure, failure, failure, failure, failure.

And by the way, if you make IT to eighty seven failures, then you will have your moment of success and not even make a past point thirty, right? And so I think, like observation, with so many google people, I knew that left and started companies, they either weren't rift takers or they didn't have the the great and persistence needed to go through the failure to get there. And IT was because that culture was find by early success and then everyone, the joint was just execution .

Operations or IT.

But no, you mention something. Maybe you can just speak a little bit more about IT, but we used to do these things, which you talked about, where every week you would force people basically to present and what you're almost doing. And I think what we learned was your desensitizing people to failure itself and IT just becomes a nothing burger because you're just seeing this lit me of just randomly bad ideas almost.

But that's what becomes so powerful, because then these random little things just become enormous. They shape you. They shape you, and you get very, very lucky.

I remember like when my facebook we created, I created this thing called growth circle. We used to run thousands of experiments a week, and we used that half folks present every week. And IT was just three hours of monotone failure, right? There was just one after another after another. But I think what IT really did was allow people to feel, okay, trying the crazy idea, yeah, because they would see the fifty people in front of them would would do is totally, is that was that the key.

is is the key. That is actually the key. And actually that makes a huge difference, right?

If you yeah here and yet they also inspire you, whoever is actually doing great, you're like, I don't want to be the last person, you know, the next week when I have to present. I want to be Better than the person that present the last weekend. They great. How do you go tivat?

How do you get people that are those high S A T over a giver types to be OK? Yeah, you have to put them .

in a position. So i'll tell you like one for example, in the class and exercise, you can tell people towards the end is like you know they're all having some started up or have some users or whatever they are know how start up. They have a project that's okay.

Your homer for next week is to ten x your sales, you have one week to do IT. People get really, really creative when you actually tell them that maybe they don't get to ten, i'll get to two or three in a week. And I think that inspiration is enough for people to make the best selves themselves. I think great leaders do that, right? They ask for more than you think.

What about learning failure? right? We were talking about this on the on the the the yesterday we were um having a conversation about, you know, how do we make sure that our kids grow up and learn failure like we all learned and failure ultimately I think, and persist and failure I think really taught me a lot about you know putting up with failure of knowing that there's long you're doing the right thing, you'll get there probably how do you teach that?

Because you know folks, especially in an environment where they have always been successful ah and how do you keep them from saying, you know what, I don't want to fail. I want to succeed because my orientation is to succeed. So when they start to fail, they run and they go to be something easy orally.

I actually at stanford fiction.

right?

Exactly if you made to yes.

那 我们。

就 安慰。

的 挑战。

But you are very, I mean, you you been an incredible student. I mean, you're probably your cancer or subject. You had to, if you got to stand for today, right? Or and y've never really failed at life. This is an eighteen year old has never suffered failure.

At least as we understand that you have to put them, you have to learn each of the students what is there we point and make them actually do that right? One, the things provoke failure as quickly as you can. So you know, if you're a typical of your computer science student, you probably can create an APP well these days within an oral.

Have something great, right? Try to get a thousand users. Yeah, it's not spending a single dollar.

What i'm fail. Can you do what? It's hard? yes.

And then do IT again.

And some of them do you know, the mental health problem is very, very high, right? I think a lot of these people, the first time they fail.

they can take IT. Let me ask you one more because i'm sorry to, but my big three predictors of entrepreneurs, success are great persisting through failure bias to action like you don't have an orientation for being analytically you have an orientation of taking action um and uh a narrative because I think that the greatest entrepreneur is that we all know Evans obviously the penultimate example someone told me, is that what wrong .

I want you to ultimately .

an second .

ult ultimate .

is what you are going for.

I feel like you're wrong on that.

That IT may be the key wall getting to your body.

Go may want to bring yeah the ultimate definition.

You have the panel and definition. So how does narrative get learned? Because we've seen that the best entrepreneurs are incredible story tellers. They tell the story and they tell the vision before it's built as a way of attracting the best talent and then as a way of attracting the capital and then is a way of attracting customers and that that ability is key to success.

And how do you actually is way to about the important, you know, and i'm gonna elevate IT one more sales. You have to be grant sales person. You're arraid.

You're selling the story of your company, but you may be selling to a fact, to an employee, to an investor and whatever to be a great sales person. Unfortunately, teaching sales, not a higher in educational institution, is considered like dirty works. And we don't even teach IT, right, but it's the most important thing.

So you know, I run a little accelerator and we just like Jason and we spend the last few weeks just teaching people how to talk. You know, how do you explain what you do? And you know, i'd tell people there's nothing like practice. You have to practice, practice to coach a, some people are born with that. Some people you actually have to learn.

learn. And what? You can definitely .

get Better here, right? Not the world would be a Better, a sad place.

Mars, we were up here. Yes, we have ten daughters between the four of us.

I love girl.

yes, three, two, two, three.

whatever.

You can remind dave .

up names of his daughters.

They're on your watch.

I'll look what he's .

got a little car in your i'd like to my wife name is it's .

got a picture book, picture.

Mark, what have you learned about women in terms of entrepreneurs? What do we need to know about encouraging them to become entrepreneurs and to create companies?

You know, I think the most important is for women to believe in themselves. I think a lot of us don't. I think you google in poster synergy, and we all have IT even myself coming here today.

I was probably the personal to practice the most because I have that imposter syndrome um that is the most important, have to overcome that because for most and IT comes naturally, right? And as we have to work a little harder to do that, but with confidence, we make amazing founders. I would say, you know, I fortunate to work with many of them this year are accelerating.

This session would represent on wednesday will have two thirds of the founders are women. That's very impressive. And their amazing not you know, they're not. There's no cutting corners that were the best people .

we as a society have to do a Better job of.

Stop clicking on those clicks.

You chicks for k exactly. Stop clicking.

Well, I think maybe you them seeing more role models like you. And I think very specifically, you know, we as all girl dads appreciate the work you're doing. Thank you. Let's give you up for more.

Let your .

winners right.

right, man, give.

We open sources to the .

fans .

and just crazy.

Why why you want.

Should all just get a room?

Sexual tension to release.

Me get you.

Do you know like.