E68: Trudeau invokes emergency powers, Bitcoin vs. government, Tiger Global's new strategy & more
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Hey, everybody, welcome to the all in podcast where three best ties talk about a range of talks, topics and one monologues about by the rangement syndrome with you again this week, the salt of science and the dictator to AAAAA a deep freeze and playing I so ball somewhere in the wing is your .

political commentator talk junior, it's an active projection .

story which sex is gonna SE his mind over? He's got two model walks prepared just in trudeau. e. Has involved an emergency or order to freeze bank accounts linked to trucker protests in canada on monday.

Trudeau invoked in emergency law requires financial institutions in canada to examine customer records and take action against people with, with or adding in the protest. Here's a trust tweet from yesterday if you're watching the video streams. Illegal blockades and occupations are not peaceful protest.

There are a threat to jobs and communities, and they cannot continue. In the house comments early today, I joined members of the parliament to speak about that and about the need to invoke the emergencies act. The counter, a signal, which is a right leaning canadian visual publication, reported that thirty four different crypto wallets were also being targeted by canadian officials.

This law grants the government extraordinary powers like the right to ban public assembly, insert locations, the canadian civil liberties association, at a point to chAllenge the governance decision in court. Uh remember sax roto piece on financial d platforming for barrio voices, common sense, about a year ago, the piece was about the private sector financial platforms. D platforming, folks. So your thoughts, sacks. S you have ninety seconds on the uninterrupted clock.

on the shock clock. I thank you. Jaa, it's true.

Last summer I wrote a piece for very wise is talking about how financial deep platform be the next way of online censorship. And here we are. It's actually happened.

What I could not have predicted is that I would IT occur in our mild manner, neighbor to the north, and that the uprisings would be directed by the government itself, not just a consortia, private actors. And what trudeau has done is he didn't just employ the emerge y act against the trucker so that he could basically arrest them and break up the protest. They have now directed banks and any financial institution, even crypto currency wallets, to freezing the accounts, not just to the truckers, but anybody who's contributed to them.

Basically anyone's contributed twenty five minutes or more um that there are two crowd funding sites that they raise money from all those people, the thousands of of distortionary canadians who did nothing more than contribute to an anti government protest. They are now at risk of financial room because they're enticement frozen and you have to wonder what what is the entire that justifies the means covet your omron is on the way in, is on its way out. At the same time that trudeau was announcing these dictatorial measures. Ford, the guy runs a ontario. The largest problem .

is ten seconds.

Ford was out there saying that he was going to that school of Mandates are going to be over. So why exactly are they doing this? We know where at the end of code.

And me ask, if there were people online making donations to the criminals who loot and kill people in san Francisco, which you have railed against being criminals who are breaking the law and should all be put behind bars. Do you think that I would be appropriate in that context for the government to block their donations to supporting criminal activity and a criminal ring? Um you know that I think we agree uh you should shouldn't be transpiring well but .

but the implication there is the truckers are using violence or or something like that and they're not I mean, it's been it's been largely a peaceful protest. It's been very annoying to people but isn't .

the case being made that they are actually breaking the law by blocking streets and that's not you know there's a peaceful protest where you can go get a permit, actually go on a public zone and peacefully protest within the the the confines of the law. What's allowed in that jurisdiction. Look, what what these folks are doing is civil disappearance, which is not a peaceful protest. IT is, you know, kind of breaking the law .

to make a point. IT is peaceful because there's .

been no violence if you are actually but right.

let me let me ask the question for sex. If a group of truckers were shutting down the bay bridge with three lanes of traffic and then shut down the two, eighty and the one of one, and IT impacted this, if they, in fact, are shutting down roads and make our businesses and emerges can get through, would you want them to be told? Would you want the cars to be told?

Listen here, here's the thing. The ambassador bridge, this vital choke point of commerce between the U. S. And canada that was blocked and that was creating a serious, but IT had already been cleared on monday by the time metro invoke the emergencies act. And then on tuesday, he was .

european on sex. If they block roads and bridges, would you if in charge? Yeah if they're breaking the law in that way, it's not just one lane, it's all three langue.

I'm just going to understand the standard here because just dooming out to last year and the year before, right there was a protest happening with B L M. And was the L N protest resulted in damage to private uh property at burning cars.

Um there were protest at the capital that involve folks tress passing into federal land uh and federal buildings and now there is protests that are uh the blocking vital trade out and you know access emergency vehicles and all this sort of stuff to me and also you know people in the franco breaking the law, not being in jail. My personal opinion is anyone that breaking the law, we should stop them for breaking the law, and anyone that wants to kind of, you know, follow a peaceful protest or or make a point to kind of make the point. But if the laws, the law shouldn't be a universal standard to hold up the law, and if the, and if the cases, people are giving money to aid in breaking the law, we stop the look. I think you're .

conflating .

a bunch of really important things there. Eating and abetting criminals uh is already illegal. There are reo statutes that um allow the authorities to go after people they are eating in a bedding through monetary support, criminal behavior separately. There's a whole body of law at the federal, state, local level that allows you to deal with protests.

Okay, the real question is why did you have after go and invoke emergency powers at the tayer and of a pandemic for what is effectively um non violent protests? Again, that's the key question, right? So just to give you some canadian history, uh has a canadian citizen.

What I can tell you is that we've invoke this emergency powers act three times in the past. The first was for world war ii, the second, sorry, world war one. The second was for world war two, and the third was the fl q crisis, which was a domestic terrorist organization in quebec that was fighting for a separate homeland.

Those of three other times in the past that a sitting prime minister has invoked these broad, sweeping emergency powers, and they did IT because you exhaust the natural body of law and the constitution and the build, you know, the charge of rights that govern the Normal behavior of democratic society. But this was is not any of those things. I don't think anybody could claim that a bunch of non violent protests, yes, they were annoying.

Yes, they basically, you know, stops some commerce. But I don't think IT was on the order of world war one, world war two or domestic terrorists emission like the F. Q. crisis.

So why invoke this? Basically get out of jail free card where you can behave without any checks and baLance. This is that can found, did we exhaust the current body of Normal governing law? And if we didn't, why is this example okay? And the counterfactual are so many.

Imagine trump input this thing during B. L. M. Imagine biden did this right now. You would be up in arms.

I think that's well emergences act that trudeau invoked requires something like an active espion oge against the country, or serious, the word serious violence, or in the law, or the threat of serious violence. Those conditions were simply not met.

Yeah and then on top of that, to go after people who contribute as little twenty five dollars to these struggles, who are trying support them because these guys are not making any money, you know there can they? We're living under very harsh conditions. So you make a small check, you write a small donation to support these people, to aid them.

They're simple working class people who are processing for Normal sea and get their freedom back. And now the under bank t gets frozen. IT is basically creating a it's kind of a shilling effect because it's essentially creating a cast of untouched ables because no one is going to want to associate with, transact with or donate to this group of people, these designated people now under the emerge y who your bank can, can get frozen if you deal with them.

think it's going to have the opposite effect. I think this can blow up in trudeau s face. This is the worst decision making by any major political leader in a long time to go after a group of people as trio set in the in the waiting days of a pandemic. What is the point? Why are we .

picking this? Or rice? He in the sense that why did the police break? So I totally hear your point. Why did the police not break up these protests? Why did you .

need to involve the that happened? I think that the police in some cases did, in some cases didn't. There were probably a lot of police sympathisers. There were probably a lot of sympathisers in general, as there were a lot of people who are detractors.

You think the police, you're saying there were police complicit.

It's the nature of a protest you have people for, you have people against. But the point is, I think what's really clear is Justin trudeau first basically said these people are racist and the sagas, then he said, they just hold views that are just unacceptable to me. And then, like a totalitarian dictator, invoked an emergency measures act that allows him to do what he wants.

That's the fact pattern. He painted in himself into a political corner and then tried to give successfully. He gave himself absolute power for some period of time. And the real question, I think, is why should this be allowed to happen in a democratic country with democratic norms against people that haven't done as as far as I can tell, a short of violent behavior?

No.

IT hasn't been.

you guys think. And where it's clear that the body of Normal governing law hasn't been exhausted yet, meaning the minute that these people were asked to actually empty the ambassage bridge, they did guys were canadians. That's what we do. Yes, we do. If you just ask.

exactly.

No, you're right. You know, never try talking to them. I mean, why went he? Why he's trying negotiate with them? Instead, he demonized the real of bad as White. He premises and not sees, and even no confederate, so which I don't even understand in the context of canada.

This is yet another example of the dying death right in front of us of the woke playbook, right? We talked about this last week. I think it's related to the san Francisco board of ad recall that's now national and probably an international news. You the the the the reaction to rogan, the reaction to jv pel. It's all part of partial of the thing where people up and down the spectrum have learned what the mechanism of action is of this council culture and they .

don't fall .

forward anymore. There's a person that's able to escalate because he's actually the power, and that's what I think people should be down .

dissenting voices from a position of power .

just because and he went on the recent, he went on the record and he said, guys, these views are unacceptable today. Well, in a democratic society, that somehow, worse.

not your choice, Justin, I mean, the views .

on all kinds of topics, all the time, unacceptable, is not the thresh, the world war two, world war one in the F, L, Q cries.

Do you guys think that there is a moment here that also is a mile marker on the road towards the state versus crypto, given the actions that we're taking inst? All because that seems to be like a big trend that's going to play out over the next decade or two. My I inevitably, the crypto is the threat to the state, right? And so now you're going to see scarisbricks this that kind of, you know hey, while it's the donate or illegal and you feedback .

is one of the best point you made, if you look at what this is done to bitcoin and you look at what it's done for all the critical currencies, this will do more than mcDonald accepting bitcoin. Because this is the first time like a western democratic state is seizing people's funds, like incredibly unfair, unnecessary way, which is just going to have more people say, you know what, maybe I should keep some of my network out of the government's preview if they are going to sees that anyway. And then now people going to start looking into the points that allow people to get conflict.

Having an enemy with having a different view, not the same thing. Having an enemy is a serious deal, right? Whether that's domestic or international, that's what we had to do in world war, one world or two in the F.

Q. crisis. This is just somebody as a different opinion. I don't agree in mass Mandates. Tes is what one person says.

I want to mass mandis what the other person says, the idea that you can deep platform one or the other or fire them from their job or prevent them from having access to the money that theyve earn or preventing other people from donating money. That's really um it's a really low bar. And I think when you Normalize this kind of behavior, it's a very sloppy slope.

And so if if somebody else were to do IT, they now have elected again contact or um the reinagle or sort of those offical discussion from last week. One of the things uh, about, you know a the stoning ritual, right, that sax talked about, uh, that we talked about last week. One of the things that renewal are talks about is IT is always hardest for that first person, right?

The first person that throws the known right. That's how jesus was able to defuse that that incident I described in the book of john. But in a different example, the first person that throws a stone, all of Normalizes IT for everybody else after them.

And then these stonings become commonplace or became commonplace. So similarly, it's like if you're in a sitting democratic person who just decides this doesn't work for you, you can't flip the script and and basically remove everybody's democratic, right? That's a really crazy.

I had a closing point once make.

well, okay, just often this point about bitcoin. The reason why bitcoin is necessary is because the tactic set trade is using is essentially to starve ve these truckers out to nony basically arrest them and but he is also taking their chance licenses. He's basically preventing them forever working again.

He's talked about that we're going to put give you your criminal records and to make IT art you to get a job. And then most important, on top of that, he's preventing anyone from helping them by contributing to them, by making a donation so easy, essentially starving these guys out. And that's the reason why bitcoin is principle helpful is that allows people using non custodial walls to make a one run around that and donate and help these these people who are being persecuted. Essentially.

I mean, he could have just simply chosen to do what saxes favorite president obama did with occupy wall street, which is, say, great, you have something, you want a voice. Here's where you can do IT just, you know, no guns, no violence, but we let, how long did occupy wall street last in downtown wall street and in oakland, in other places, like a year or two, and you just wait them out. And that's IT.

I think when you encounter a sincere protest movement, the first thing you should do as leaders actually listen and try to understand what IT is, that the protest being on behalf of. And trudeau never did that. He went straight to to eleven with this.

And I think part of the reason why I may take out, you ask why, why is IT that, that there seems to be accommodation with this? And with the ukrainy issue that the leaders are immediate escalating, these situations are looking for a way to deescalate ted and they're doing IT with the media egg them on. And so as as harshest truda rec has been the media radic around, this has been even worse.

You have this CNN contributor, Julia ka am is also harvard professor, basically tweet that trudeau h needed to slash their retires, empty, the gas stinks, are rest the drivers, you know, making IT unclear how you never get the trucks off the bridge. But then, he said, cancelled their insurance to spend their drivers license prove IT any future regulatory version ation SHE says, trust me, I will not run out a way to make this hurt. You know, you have the media cheering this on, egging on true deaf. They're doing the same thing, beating the drums of warm ukraine. What is wrong with these people?

Yeah, D. S. plate.

And where's the opp of the gust? The biggest story is this the bitcoin thing because you know, if you guys speak about like three thousand and sixties, like capital was in digitize IT was like physical, like you to own like a stock certificate or cash or gold or a bar bond. Today everything is digital, right? Like there's a digital record of you know who owns what's stocked and who how much is in your bank account.

And none of IT is type y. You're having a physical asset. And uh ultimately the law was able to reach into these digital systems and have greater um uh oversight and ultimately control uh you know over accounts and so on.

And to know the ditty zone of capital assets has had an incredible ability to drive economic growth and investment and ease of transaction. But it's also significantly increase the centralization of assets or the central influence over assets. Bitcoin seems to be the resolution to that. And now you're seeing the ultimate chAllenge to bitcoin and the chAllenge to decentralized systems like the kind ecliptic of currencies. And so I don't want to speak specifically to anyone, but there seems to be like this trend over the last sixty years that's now being chAllenged because you can have your accounts froze at any moment um you know for breaking the law because emergency actor are induced. And I think you're right, is probably going accelerate interest in these kind of of government .

chain if into some separate and anyone to .

do anybody can do IT they're doing in in china, right? And is this incredible whole point is like absolute aliza of every capital asset.

digital. Think about dangerous. The digital you want is the minute you say something that jean ping doesn't like, it's a, it's a stroke of a .

keyboard key locked away.

It's a database century. And you just basically we out who belong .

or and IT could be IT could happen in america. They say, you know what, california, you now once have a wealth tax. Anybody who's got money, we're just going to take your money automatically.

Guys think we sound like a right wing politics show at this point.

Now this is an a writing politics thing.

I think that we have so jumped to shark. There are things that are happening today every day, that you know, if you had said a isolation two or three years ago, what any of these things ever happened, we all would have just looked at each other and said, it's impossible that these things could happen in. But the problem is fast. For two years of a pandemic, I think we have made a lot of our civil liberty is decay right under our nose, and we're not willing to fight for because it's become too trivial and and rights have been politicize. So the idea of having rights, you, and then standing up for your rights, all of a student has to be a decision between whether you're laugh to write that's crazy.

I I don't think that liberties in the sense of government oversight have decade as uh in addition to that liberties and the sense of uh of a social setting have decade you know with because of cancel culture we've Normalized the ability to silence minority or dissenting voices um and this is both in the private enterprise setting as well as in the public setting and it's um you know I don't know, I don't consider myself a right wing conservative person by any stretch um but I I do consider myself a person who believes an individual freedom and liberty .

that's called an american by the way yeah it's basically being in amErica and I think as as we move on to this uh recall in same this guy I think sax made a really good point like what are our political leaders doing here? Are they trying to stir the pot and tag nic situations? If you look clinton, obama, a lot of people previously, we're trying to defuse the situations.

And then biden seems to be staring the part. Justin trudeau. And then if you look at trump with B, L, M, no.

And the immigration stuff, he never SAT down. He met with them. He arguably antagonized them. So I think there's a perfect side way into what happened. And, you know, so we should expect a little more from our political IT is great point from sex you .

just thought of something incredible. You know, trump railed against his B. O, M.

Folks, but at no point did he tried to shut down their bank accounts and take their money away. And trudeau. This was not even near in the scale of B, A, M, A. Who is the the .

authority an clearly, if you objectively situation, the scary .

authorities, as we talked about, previous Price tends to come the ft. At least the right you see is coming. I think it's veiled under moral virtue signal.

That's right. They clam they claim to be the offenders of the working class while they're actually prosecuting them.

Such an unstarted like so dumb. He's going to lose, right?

He's going to lose if A D A was elected in a police office, a police chief or like at the same Frances go that said, we are going to freeze the bank accounts and um you know uh uh d mobilized the criminals that are and sacking our city, our our people, our stores. Would you support that?

No, none of it's not. It's an extradition tio use of power. I mean the law specifies what you're allow .

to do giving safet this goes in an emergency situation. I mean would you support the mayor taking on emergency uh, authority to go and fix the problem? SHE gifted, by the way, and generally.

yeah but that doesn't give her the power to go to wealth fargo and say, a wells fargo, we want you to freeze all these accounts with no due process of war. That's basically what to do.

That's the overnight that's the line you think is like .

go and see you to go through a court proceedings to free silent's bank count period kid to three sales bank count.

The law allows you to do this now it's called reo. So you follow the due process of the law and you can do all those things freely that that that you just mentioned. If you want to free somebody's bank account, right? You can actually do that. The government has the ability do that. They don't need to pass this, basically get out of jail free card to do whatever you want without any oversight .

into your most point earlier, have you exhausted the regular law here.

not arresting peace? The regular.

they haven't even tried. You could buy venter off five bucks on you in the time when, anytime you.

and meanwhile the all the provinces or any of IT mentes. Anyways, this whole issue is mood .

so dumb it's this is like the stupid dest behavior at the end of a pandemic that we've ever seen in shot out to George lucas for getting IT right. I mean, you look at the theme of star wars. IT was like, oh, I just need emergency powers for a .

minute because of a trade federation blockade.

And he was, sis goes back. The information of the world got emergency.

Although this is a tried and true public in canada, is plotting. So what was the line from democrat dice to applause.

if that was the main line in in the story films? Alright, uh, the ageing well the prick was a three members of santana goes board of education .

where they were the words, just to be clear.

not compared to the three just huge dumps that disney took on the our childhood ds with the sequel, three members of the same scope order of education we were called this week, massively. They lost by between seventy two percent and seventy nine percent. These were the virtual signalling maniacs who wanted to change the names of all the schools, wouldn't reopen the schools.

eta. And this really frustrated and they wanted to get rid of ellide ap classes. All of this .

they they did .

yeah um and these dream board members are out so london breed in the middle chase.

And just and just be clear in middle of a pandemic, I think my understanding is that instead of figuring out how to get these kids back in class, how to figure out how they could take off their masks, they wanted to drop Abraham n. Lincoln and George washington's name from schools because IT was IT was too regressive. They cancelled LED the gifted program because they made other kids feel bad. And a gentlemen that wanted disturb on a committee who I think was gay but not minority, was excluded because he wasn't the minority enough for them. So these are the three people that seventy six percent of san franc citizens or residents just.

uh recalled and if you're not following industry had a major part in this in terms of backing IT. There was a lot of claims of which all that sacks address in a moment ah that this was a republican driven out of state movement. But if you look, there are not one hundred thousand republicans and service going, all likelihood, this was actually parents.

A lot of cases based on the geography of sanctis c, on the density of certain populations. A lot of asian americans came out in force in some neighbors od, ninety percent were voting to out these people. A garreton, uh, who is a product of the sympathy isco public education system and a great entrepreneur venture capital.

Alist, uh, was a leader in this move. And so congratulations to him. And this all is going to culminate, I think, in mayor june. Sex will correct me with the recall effort for, uh, chess budi uh, this killer D A, who won't prosecute anybody sucks. Where your thoughts on this Victory and full disclosure, you were a major donor to this.

I was the second largest donor and I was largest donor under author. Rock was the biggest donor. What a bad asked, by the way, the guys and ninety five years old donor, four thousand dollars to this. Uh, recall infair ish.

You live in safran system. This is a back door issue for you. You care.

Yeah, yeah. Look, I think crime and schools are the key quality of life issues in any community and that transcend partisan boundaries. If your kids cannot get a quality education and you cannot be safe in your community, nothing else matters. And that matters to democrats as much. republicans.

And that's why, like you said, three quarters of server to go vote for this recall even though eighty five percent of vote for biden not it's basic and ninety percent democrats city so you know all these claims that was a republican recall turned out to be nonsense this was something that was broadly supported and um and you know, look at the same reason that Young can flipped A A plus ten democrats state in Virginia, which is that you IT had a lot to do with school closures. They keep the school closed for a year and half. And then when they were supose to half comma pta meeting about reopening IT like to mos, so they spent five hours debating whether to allow this beloved gay pain onto a voluntary school board.

They didn't. They spent all their time you talking about changing the names of the schools. And so how to reopen them? They also there's chondrine ss management. I mean the school something like hundred twenty five million or dead despite you know being in a very rich city.

They open for one day. That's right. Just they could get a stay piece of the state budget pie. So these kids clAmbered back to school just so that they could technically say, yet we were open and to get, I think he was a pull over thirty million dollar check, and they shut the schools down again.

right? And you broke y point chasing, which is that the asian american community and servants scope, and absolutely gavi zed, by this issue, because the schoolboy, also your low high schools, one of the best schools in the city, and there was merit based and had great advanced math programs. And this this board basically got rid of all of that stuff and infuriated the asia american community, many of whose most problem of members have based risen out of poverty because of the education they ve got at law. And so this war on merit that's happening is something that is going to you know flip the you know asian uh, american community, I think .

to when I was growing up, I grew up in a french cattle of the war, and I was supposed to go to a local high school that was just plainly trash. And I was able to go to an equivalent of law, this a public magnet high school that had, uh, advanced classes in everything I give the program. And IT did change my life.

And so I really understand what people are saying, which is like when you're in poverty, the only way out is through an education. Really, you may, you know, get accidentally lucky, but the only really predictable sustainable pattern here is, is through school. And so when you deprive talks from being able to get a decent education and there is no real in an orderly logic to IT, it's a really ridiculous kind of an idea.

The other thing is, I think that this speaks very powerfully, as sac said, as a non as a byproduct is an issue that these democrats have to get right because, you know, you saw this also in a Virginia where democrats basically went down this one tag. And you know the republican Candy gan yang can basically said, hillis and the schools are broken. It's completely doesn't make any sense.

We oppose a lot of what's going on, the watering down and the critical rest theory that I said. And he put IT to a vote and a lot of people across the isle there as well. We are typically democrats, basically voted for the republican governor. I think the point is that there are just several issues that are just so transat there, just they transcend all party lines. And this is an anchor issue that we have to .

get right freeburg. Any thoughts on this? You think this is the start of maybe a turnaround for san Francisco because chess bun is way more hated and safety is an even bigger issue, I think, for a lot of people right now in santanna and IT duck tales with asian hate and the number of asian people targeted in crimes. So he's got a if these people got up by seventy five percent and he's going to be up by ninety five percent, is this a tipping point? And safe is is going to make a right.

I know I I think there is generally a broader trend and momentum around what we classify as workers, in which I think this is a little bit discarded ing.

To the intention of social justice and recognizing the the the primary points of social justice through action and behavior um in civic discourse and in government behavior um and you know this like the um election of several D A around the country uh who take a different stance to prosecution of crime to try and create Better options for rehab and and and so on. Um I think is not a movement that's gna go away overnight. I think they're certainly uh H A half the amount of resistance.

But what we're really doing right now is I think we're learning and realizing the boundaries of this movement and of this moment. Um the one boundary that I think some friends is are too about some friends go like you know as in the case in tech has always been so progressive in terms of you know doing these things faster than than anyone else. But what we're realizing and inference, cisco is non prosecution of criminals.

Uh as the D A has undertaken over the past couple of years, leads to really heinous crime um and rapid crime and um and and and this kind of social justice movement within the education system causes the decline in the value of our education system. Those are two really important learnings that san Francisco has had over the past couple of years with this very important um a momentous kind of social justice movement. But IT doesn't mean that the movement is over IT doesn't mean the quote on quote workers m is over IT means that social justice intent is still there. But we're realizing where the boundaries aren't how f far things can maybe should go. I this .

article um tell or Colin who's uh you know pretty well known economist, he wrote this upbeat for for uh bloomberg and what he said is that voguish has pete um and there is these two passages that the built on what freeburg said uh quote by voguish I referred to a movement that on the positive side is highly aware of racism and social injustice and is governed zts towards raising awareness on the negative side, IT can be pretty alienating, overly concerned with symbols and self reaches unquote.

And I think that that probably does summarize sort of like where IT starts, which is I think rooted in a very good place. But unfortunately all too often where IT ends, which is that sort of moral absolutes judgment cancel culture around IT um and in the second quote that he said was the following, he said, quote, voguish is likely to evolve into a subculture that is highly educated, highly White and fairly feminine that is still a large massive people but not enough to run the country, all its major institutions. In the san Francesco schoolboy recall, for instance, the rural evasion americans was especially prominent unquote.

So I don't know. I just think that all these things, sort of little people are looking for affiliation. And you start with labels that bring you in, and then you have to sort out, are all these labels really true and how true are they? And I think we're in this moment now where now let me know the mechanism of action of voguish. I just don't think IT works anymore. And I think a lot of people say, I believe in the high order deals of ratio and social justice, but I don't believe in the mechanism.

The pendulum went too far, but, but, but, but the core intent of a generation of change is underway, which is social justice and climate change I think those are the too big a points of be done with this cohorn under this IT we've done to this extreme this fast right and um and I think that the pendula went too fast too far um and it's um and and and there there are boundary effects that are causing recourse right now and we we're seeing this across the country, especially in new york with the election of the mayor and conference. Is go the D A recall happening in the next couple of months. So what's your prediction on the D A recall.

by the way? Oh, that's ninety five percent. But I mean, you did. To build on your point, they were trying to about ten percent of the people in the united states are involved in this retweet and virtual signal and twitter. A real place. Well, no, a cities, a real place, people have to live in santana co.

And when these ideologies is result in unlivable conditions for people, while they going to say, you know that this reality here, how do we get competent people to take the positions, sex that are being vacated? Now, who should london breed? Put in these three positions, and maybe tech people need to stay in.

This is what I think has to happen. I think some number of tech people have to get off the bench and say, you know what, i'm going to do a tour of duty as politicians in safran cscope to take back the city. What should happen here in terms of who takes these positions? Because republicans can't .

winner to s go. So you going to need moderate democrats rix goes I say, think jack out. I I think the point you're making about the tech people implies the tech people are effective and good at doing this, but that's not necessarily the fabric of sanford cisco.

I've lived in san Francisco in two thousand and one. The number of people in seven ford is in two thousand. One that were in the tech industry was a minority since that time.

IT became a significant size and over the last two years, since pandemic, decrease differently. But inform, this goes the city with decades and generations of history. My wife family is multigeneration and france. And I don't think that traditionally safe insistance view tech people as the right people to solve these problems for them, that the intention of that city is not necessarily that lets get tech people to solve our problems. They have a different set of values perhaps um and so we often overstate and assume the tech people are the right people and are the the problem solves but I don't think that that's cesspool ily the right problems that people want to say.

I who should take these .

positions because people typically really far .

left people are motivated to take these positions. I don't see business people written large across all political you know positions, but specific as ever, cisco don't want to take this position. So is this just gonna be repayed sex?

The recall effort was made by two parents, automobile and severoc. There are the ones who LED this thing. There are the ones who rose up to basically oppose this crazy small board members, that is who london we should talk to.

I mean, he needs to go to talk to the people who are successful and organizing this recall, because they understand the issues, obviously, and the people are with them. So either appoint them to the board or ask them for the recommendations. And I think what you see consistently, whether it's with this sf uh, schoolboy or the the the schoolboy ds that we saw in Virginia, the yang can very effectively ran guess is that they don't believe the parents matter.

Jerry mccoll s fatal that his last gp was basically saying that the parents shouldn't get to decide what is taught in the schools. He based said that quite part out loud. That is what still across the country, the teachers unions believe, and most democratic party, the activists believe. And until they start losing elections, you're not going to see a change in that belief.

Oh my god, how also want to be absent or on the schoolboy oh my god.

yeah ah and just to put a pin in this uh the Cherry on top, the severity cco port of supervisors voted seven to four to send a recall reform bill so they're reaction to all of this is to do a recall of recalls and say, now you, uh, can't recall somebody in their first year and the people who are a place in these positions can't run again so now the speculation is the three people who voted off are gonna run again so there's a lot more to .

come on this yes. There they're putting that on the ballot on june seven the same day that we vote on the recall of J A beauty and the board provides about this measure that would make IT far hard to recall people. One of the provisions of that is whoever london breed a points as a successor like you're talking about, they cannot run after that. So IT is designed to for no, that makes no sense. They are basically .

do a great job.

right? exactly. That makes no sense. So you have the board of supervisors trying to throw a ranch into the democratic process. Meanwhile, these are people who claim to be preserving democracy, saving democracy. They are going to throw a range in the .

is that underlying a David, is they think they know Better. That's what the fundamental comes down to. They're willing to have democracy up to a point. And when that point is an unacceptable view by somebody else, they feel like they know Better than they're willing to be really ciconians and whatever they do to decide.

Yeah ah and .

shout out to microblog berg or put up the the tweet for everybody. He hasn't been very vocal or been on the stage much, but obviously did a great job in new york on reforming schools. The same vertical school board recall should be a wake up call to elected officials, especially democrats across the nation. Parents are fed up with the status quo, and that put adults, uh, that puts adults ahead of kids yeah.

Ideology ahead of results. Well said. Well, mr. Bloomberg was and blimber g has been very good on calling out the democrat democrat parties, buying little to to the teachers unions.

And until they're were going to break with the teachers unions who are their biggest donor, we're not going to get any real progress on school reform. And this is the issue. My favorite compeer, one of them is going to share this, a democrats, you rote the emerging democrat majority. He wrote a blog post talking about how the asia american voters are going to swing away from the democratic party because of issues like this, because of the declining standard in school and safety and and and the asian 点 community， I think, is governed zed on this chase buildin issue, because they have seen in all these cases of asian hate, or elders in their community have been violently assaulted. Chase a udea has done nothing except release the .

perpetrator workers. Well, listen, this is seems like a good turning point. Let's we talked about on this podcast over and over again about the compression in sas multiples in the public market valuations, uh, something that we're still working through in the stock market, which has been choppy at best over the last couple of months.

An information story came out h just this week, major cross ss over funds like tiger in done or slowing down their investments in late stage private companies. And I was talking to some folks who said the multiple compression is here now. They're not doing the deals at seventy five or one hundred x revenue.

This is reported in an article by the information tiger global told their L P S. In a webinar earlier this month that I would no longer focus on backing late stage startup s preparing to go public. Instead, they will focus two things going even earlier in the serious.

Hence there is be rounds and buying shares of publi C2Companies tha t hav e sun k in val ue com pared to the all tim e hig hs. Uh, obviously we know twelve zom block, all down over sixty percent from there. One year highs. I can get into more details here, but let's stop for a second in chaos.

What are your thoughts in the dot com bubble? IT took somewhere between three to five years for most stocks, the bottom and they bottom, I think, peak to trap summer, you know, towards eighty percent of where they were in two thousand, right? So IT took three to five years to go, basically minus eighty percent.

We did that in three months, you know, maybe four months. And so, uh, the markets have become a lot more efficient over time. So now that we have that reset, it's pretty natural that there's going to be a very quick reset on the private market side.

And you know you have to go where the bodies are buried. And what I mean by that, in this cases, the overwhelming this valuable ation of late stage private companies. And so these folks don't have much of a choice. They have a lot of money that they've raised before all of this happened. They have a huge portfolio stuff that they've marked up or have been marked up by others, and they don't want to go through the pain now resetting.

So part of the easy strategic decision there is to say, you know what we know this is a little bit radioactive, but instead of really figuring out what the mark on these companies are, will go to a different sort of part of the um playground and play there because we don't have to go and deal with these issues. And in our work, we can do ten, twenty, twenty million dollar checks into early stage businesses. Pretty Normal reactions pratesh ics.

But I think the reality is that at some point in the next year to these other companies have to get public, the hope is that the market catches back up so that you can defend the last valuation. And that's that's the way that this stuff doesn't require a lot of pain. The problem is, if you're hybrid and you are counting on yet another success round or you're at appointing your lifecycle where you need to go public in the next two years, if you go public, you will get take into the watch shot.

take to which had being your valuation might be half of what IT is in your last round. So there's going to be a medicine that has to be taken, sex theyll be medicine. Some people going to have to take medicine, sex, which you are the best advice. Being one of the great Operators in the history of silicon valley as a city. Paypal.

yes. Well.

I never push up there with you. I mean, I think, I think everybody agreed. The top four people can correct me here.

Tim, a good Operator.

I mean, I saw what you did. See cute men. And you were right, that that bad boy down .

was delivery billion fuck users to okay pretty decent .

um you did pretty go to facebook, i'd say that. But if I would think most people would say sax, shero, tim cook, Keith or boy, we'll put that aside for the debate in terms to actually okay, but I mean, wasn't .

wasn't your .

chosen career IT bring .

me White people face asian .

and .

indian. C, E S run most of the tech companies .

and talking about number two ceos, not C, E O. Just for the C E O position, to be clear. I'm not talking CEO talking COO. I would say tim cook, when he was Steve jobs, that's my number one, Operate last twenty thirty years number two, epochal sam berg, who did obviously amazing things for google and then facebook, right? Those two would be my top two.

And then I tie my top two sex uh as uh I paypal uh and benefits, even though the work out was still a great run at the time. And then I put key to a boy square, uh, in a couple of other companies he did those are my top for anybody else want to come at me ahead? I don't have complete data set on. Cos, what? Where would you put sex?

You and I put your family dish.

Who might a dish?

And report was a key that linked in.

let's love .

that now is .

so y're advising you and freedoms.

G at each other throat. So i'll just like you guys fight IT out and i'll be all about the love.

a freebase, why you're tucking jackal freely. Be quite over there. No.

me freeburg. X as an Operator, extra dinar. What's your best advice to the company?

Ah that raised one hundred million and let's say their valuation is now not a billion, is five hundred million. What are the steps you take? You got fourteen months of runway in the bank to lay people.

Are do you extended to twenty four? What are your thoughts? You must be dealing with this with companies in your portfolio.

Well, there's a few things going on. First, while I think tiger built a great business in providing late stage sort of passive non deal of capital to to companies SaaS companies with a bunch of of uh, SaaS is a date provided later financing. I think those valuations who can come down, I don't know that they're going to be such a great partner for series a firms because they are passive.

And we see is that series day companies need a lot of help. They need a lot of advice, need lot help with recruiting, governance, governance. They need, you know, when they are growing from, say, twenty employees to a one hundred and know what that all chart looks like and on and on and on.

So I don't know that if if this reporting of this report is actually true, but if the goal is all the sun retired, become a serious a investor that competes with craft or scores. These other firms are very hands on. That doesn't seem like a great. I do think that for our later stage companies, they have to realize that you, if they raised and .

the other side of this, sorry, David, I know you reaction this, I think IT is gonna work, but not for the right reasons. The reason work is there are way more entrepreneurs now. Then there are great entrepreneurs. And so of all of these entrepreneurs that exist, the idea of getting passive money where you won't get fired, where there is that remember, remember when we were growing up in silicon valley, the risk is always like if you take sqa benchmark social lick, there is a high bar for that capital, which means we are helping you run this business effectively. And there's a cost where if you don't perform, you'll get fire.

There's always been that risk is true. And I guess the argument they could .

make the flip side is so the CEO now why would you take a fifty million a series each check from supplier, where they could far e you? Where is fifty million dollars from tiger?

They, they may never call you. Just look if if founds really worried about that, we address up by giving them three board seats. Now we might have won them. I have three. I mean, my view on IT is you just never fire a found and say that rain criminal it's is that simple. But um so look, I think there's ways of addressing the governance where you can get the help for the value out of an early stage firm without giving up the control. So yeah, I mean, look, that's the pitch that I make, but I think that's addressable.

What do you think of that pitch? Freeburg will give you the fifteen million dollars series a. You don't have to have a board. You can just be passive and and let us know how IT goes. Give us a quarterly report.

will look at the p nl. That's all of cypher now anyways.

And a first point, no governance cypher. I was leading A D stuff.

I tell you, I tell people this three term sheet for my series b uh, IT was from a recent horror coastal ventures and founder is fun and funders. Fun is a came in a one minute, but I went with coastal. Uh, even those are lower valuation because the node with pretty insisted like let me put someone that could be useful some you know government percent because we are doing a lot of work lobbying in in D C.

On your board. We won. Be on your board, we will buy you. And I took around and in my series sea I took from fatter is fun because brian singerman, who's obviously good friend, um you know made the case like look of our model of founders fun as we let oundle run the business. We're not here to tell you how to run your business.

And they were both great sits and you know IT worked out well. I didn't I had I have had experience with antagonistic c cc on boards and you know generally creates a pretty negative dynamic. Now when I want the story without the person's thing, I don't think I want to go public with IT. I'm not gna do that um but when I was on give us an idea .

of what the behavior would be because there are people who are going to want to know what is bad behavior of you see give us a opposit.

When you're entrepreneur or C E O running in early stage business, you live that business twenty hours a day. You know the details. If you're smart, your thoro, your analytical, your creative.

There is no one that's gonna in the boardroom for two hours a quarter and suggest things to you that you haven't thought us. There is no one is going to come in the room and be smarter than you at your own business. And so more often than not, the OS been exceptional at defining this problem.

The problem is VC fake. Join aboard and they think that they have to quote, add value. So they come in and they make a bunch of suggestions and recommendations and push you to do a buch of things.

And as the node has said correctly many times, they are more often than not add negative value. They can actually destroy damage of business because they need to feel like they're exerting some degree influence over the business. And as a result, they pushed the business to do things that the CEO or found or otherwise wouldn't be doing.

And that often ends up in a kind of weird, sticky you can play. So I just validate the tiger. I think that right. And by the way, it's wife founders, fun, fatter.

What is fantastic? I don't know you guys are L P S, but their investment returns are so far beyond what I think anyone really realized. They're incredible investors and a big part of this.

They try and find the entrepreneur that doesn't want and doesn't need the help, and then they give them the capital to go and execute and they leave them to hacker. And they are just so good at finding those folks, identifying them and then literally being passive in in how they kind of manage and Operate their business. And that's why they are so friendly. good.

I think the people you are talking about, a lot of rookie vcs who come in and then yeah they think not just looked.

just experience x Operators, even people who rent businesses who say, I know how to run a business and look, no two businesses are like, so maybe the way they run their business with their team and their market, their industry work well for them. But now when they gotto come in and do IT with someone else's business in some other space, with some completely different teen, you know, they trying exert influence. And really it's just, you know.

not want to let me go to sax. Sax, hold done. I wanted to get one from you. Give us some idea because you've been in the business for over twenty years. I mean, by the looks of IT may be but twenty years just crushing into the business. What's the worst behavior you've seen on a board? Uh, you can make a composite of like a VC being destructive on a board yeah .

I may look I think it's a nice VC will have sore poppy horses and not keep pushing for things that the founder doesn't want that's not productive. But what I would say is for all of me to say, like i'm not somebody who likes to take board seats and I I do IT as h it's like I see is a cost not a benefit to me because IT takes up my time. If I didn't have to ever take a board seat that be a great at first, I concern that be a good thing and not somebody who wants to you insert myself and get .

on these boards as an instance of.

no, I only to close deals. The only reason ever to sees because I have to do IT because the founder and they won't go with you'll .

do IT for one year, right?

You'll say hi, i'll do IT for a year. I always time limit IT now because I just can't I mean, I can't make a turn or obligation. You it's typically like one two years and then we'll see. Doesn't mean I roll off in two years. But um but I I the expectation set up and and the reality is if the company can perform well for another two years will be at a different stage and maybe they want you know need my help .

as much so to the two most valuable pieces of private equity that I own. It's a company called D C. G. And it's a company called mexico. And collectively it's like billion dollars or the stock that I on what i'm on the board of one, i'm not on the board of the other anymore. And I text with these guys maybe once two or three months at best.

So do you know completely confirming, David, your point, that great founders are just end of one individuals you know barry silver um sania berry, next level guys. But that's very different than the the series a playbook because when I ran institutional money, i'm telling you there is a pressure to be involved and show some value. And I do think that there is A A level of judgment on the C.

E. O. That has happened now maybe that change historically, but I think that's the single biggest private that one would exploit if you were tiger or go to or d one stepping into the early stage game, which is to essentially make IT a feature and it's not to similar to an D S T and your mila enter the late stage round.

You know what was his big differentiation? I'll take common stock and I won't take a board seat. I do not see board seat to be influences. IT seems so counterintuitive and so against the grain, but he acknowledge what was this thing that up until that point was true, which is common and preferred converged in Price per share. So buying common in late, the company was the same as .

behind preferred for second people. Don't know when you said.

when you not certain. So when you set up a company, you have a Price for sure of the common stock and then a Price pressure that the series a investor has. The service investors buying preferred shares that actually looks more like debt than equity. And what I mean by that is there's typically a coupon, there's a rate of return, there's accumulated dividends. All these features give IT a certain Price pressures, and the comment has none of those .

features and provisions.

And that gap is typically around twenty to one when you set up a company. okay. And that's what allows you to hire the employees and give them very, very cheap options with them Better upside.

Then what happens is you raise more and more of these series b series c, series d this preference stack, right prefect res build up. But the value of the comment keeps rising to. And by the time you go public, the gap converges.

What you I realized was he, wait a minute, i'm buying a company a year or eighteen months before I was public, the Price of the common and the Price of the preferred or roughly the same. And so i'm just going to do that and i'm not going take a board seat because it's clear this company is successful. So similarly for tiger d one and code to, I would just observe the obvious and kind of put everything that we've just on the table, which is, hi guys, i'll give you the money. You're either end of one or not. I'm making a guess that you are and i'm just going to get here.

He leave you. So unbundling governance and unbundling the governance and advice piece from the capital piece, but you can still need that governance and advice piece.

I yes, I mean, I think there's a lot of great founders, the founders who start Young and experience to become great and the smart ones list to advice on the way. And they they seek out people who done that before. And so you know, yes, there may be an end of one business by the growth stage, but that doesn't mean they don't need any help.

What soever at the series a stage? Such a good observation. yeah. And look, I think there's been I think it's been an evolution service. Valid actually said has been like three distinct phases in the venture capital, the world, and I remember all.

So you go back to the the the late nineties, okay, when you you had this mentally on the part of vcs that if a company became successfully, you just automatically place the founders, right? You go bring federal C, E, O. That was disaster, okay? And and that's when founders fun Peter came in, I think founded founders fund two thousand three. And the reason they called the founders found is to indicate they are going to profounder and they would never replace the founder and they would let you do whatever you want IT.

And I think that you want to tell the back .

story of the showing Parker stuff and how that ah I mean so basically both Peter and Shawn Parker had you know experiences they felt were very with zoia and and by the way I I create relation with with sekou rule off to work with us a papal is there and I think David volt as a firm so i'm not calling them out of or anything, but but both Shawn Parker and Peter felt like to quit, pushed after replace. And so when .

black I specifically.

there are a couple of different companies involved. But when Peter was see you of a paypal as well that, you know, I felt that pressure as well. So when they then found IT as two, the four founding partners of founding back in two thousand and three, the whole point was we are going to profound.

There you are ever going a place you will let you do every you want. I think that would illustrates too. And that became, I think, the dominant model. And so becoming profounder was now table stakes.

And I think the third phase has been, you know what in recent, Harris is now done with this massive like the services in the value add, which is that we're gna basically nearly be profounder that were going to like bring all these resources to help you. Does the era were in right now? I mean, from our perspective, like as as craft may look, it's not no interest to get into any distributed founder. And if we feel like our advice isn't being taken while we just back off, you know, of course, we're profounder like we don't want the control or not control investors. And you know if it's it's becoming frictional.

we rather to .

get out the way it's because you have enough of a fun that's large enough where you can have enough beds. Word any of any of these things to the upside is a total needle mover. But anything that goes to zero doesn't actually diminish the fund or imperial meaningfully.

So there is no upside to getting engaged in really being non anti founder. So I think it's I think it's a part of a business mode. But one thing I want to tell you about Parker, Parker was single handily incredible, responsible for keeping suck in the seat when he was president at facebook. Parker wrote, you know uh, the structure that really allowed mark to keep .

control super voting .

shares set to to add on to your your point, I think that there is been uh so so there seems to be a bite vacation around the services model or not but the force thing that seems to have happened and you guys tell me if i'm wrong on this but IT plays into the tiger global story when I was, uh when I got that term sheet for my series B A climate core market and recent, I was turned to raise like twenty five to thirty million dollars and market reason was like, where do you need to turn cheat for forty million dollars more than you were asking for, uh, because we want you to use that extra capital to go faster or to go harder to grab the market because we the stag in businesses grading the market.

And that seems to have also become a bit of main say, but not just a main say, but now almost like the the the the kind of a standard pitch that a lot of the later stage guides are taking, which is like here's so much capital that IT helps you make the market. And then the soft dc k vision fun kind of took that to the extreme with a hundred million of the rays and tiger global, I think, last year of publicly said they deployed about fifteen billion dollars into startups, where the startups may, in a natural cycle, kind of evolved in nineteen seventy million dollar rays, or hundred million dollar. And they're like writing checks for two, fifty or three hundred and saying the sex for capital gives you the ability to move faster.

And the reason is the faster of business moves, the higher the multiple they get on their revenue. So the higher the growth rate, the hired the multiple. So if you can deploy capital faster, we can find a business where we can pump money through you to get IT out the door faster.

Your multiple goes up and tigers model was let's just get the multiple up. There's multiple expansion and growth. So will make money two ways when the company goes public in eighteen and twenty four months, obviously, when the markets end up tanking in the all those multiples compressed, no growth rate is gone to solve that problem for you.

Um but having more capital than maybe you are thinking that you're asking for also seems to have become kind of attacking. I don't know that if you view that is kind of this fourth evolution, but that certainly wasn't the case twenty years ago. And VS were being careful about isn't six million dollars or eight million dollars? What's the right capital? And nowadays, it's much more about take more than you need.

And i'll say there was a three point five in there, which is you saw a little bit of lack of governance or superpowers on the part of like some in company founders or bad founders, just, you know, whether it's we work there or whatever, too much control, not enough governance, things go off the rail.

But based on this discussion, I really think this by, for cade, when is the first time found diverses, a second time founder in what I see, because I have been doing board training for seek companies, where I will just have three founders sit in on each other's first board meetings. We do one board meeting each, and I train them how board meetings works on what I experienced with a coil on my board. Other boards at first time, founders, like the tactical stuff, had to run abroad, meeting legal, hr, hiring partnerships, we go to market, trade.

Man IT is all tactical all the time. And then when i've been on the second and third time founder, you, they really are like, here's all the materials. Here's what i'm thinking about, what do we think strategically? So they go from the data ever to the strategy emission level, awful ly quick. And they actually seem to enjoy having those four meetings a year where as the first time founder really need to have six to ten a year in those in that first, you know called year two of a company. That's my experience.

I realized in this discussion that the market has really meaningful ly change. Meaning when I was actively investing even in the early two thousands uh or sorry, in the in the in the two thousand and eleven, twelve, thirteen, there was a culture where if you under perform, you would get replaced. And I think, David, what you just spoke about, which I guess is true, has really changed, which is if you're running a multicultural illar dollar fund where every check is twenty million dollars, the upside is billions, but the downside is negative twenty, there's just no point. And so, you know, so koa used to be known as a very, very, very tough, tough.

tough place for CEO. In now.

twenty doesn't matter were not no, not even even ten, less than ten years ago, I think he was, I think he was known as a very tough, demanding place. I think benchmark was known as a very tough, demanding place because the money was much more finite.

Bench benchmark still, still that case.

the expectation called they they never .

grow their fun size.

no. J you're not. Hear me.

I am. I think what happening is this and I had a coy on my board and I worked as a year.

So there is different between high expectations, which I think all these folks have to have, and the willingness to replace the founder as C. E. O. And what i'm saying is every VC claims this, but there were a handful of vcs that had the courage to do this.

I mean, famously, mike morson, john, do you know how did out with Larry? Um you know right right after this, like either go public, you know get your business one or give us your money back. Famous as a google. So they're not they are willing to draw line in the I think that, that has fundamentally changed at all these organizations because the fun have gone up and the and the mathematical reality of venture capital has changed.

Something else you're missing, which is, remember, its indoor. We're not Operators. And now these companies are being run rule off is running skua and he is an Operator and he was there. So the changing of the guard and mark and driven and bent horror is where Operator or so the Operator class. But he's very .

differently. I agree with you. Think of s no, I think that fun size dictates is behavior more than any singular other feature.

When you're running a nine billion dollar fund, you just don't sweat that changing of the C E. O. And David said IT really well, you just say cut losses and move on. We don't lose.

I think more about the cultural change and sick value of a bunch of N B, A finance people who have never run a company. Now, moving in, run companies. But let's move into the next. Any closing dots .

on this one. Well, J, I started to make this point that if if you're a founder and you want to eventually run a great public company, when you IPO guess what you're going to have, governments and what i've see a big time, right? I mean, there's just deliver a law.

There is a lot of like expectations around being a public company. And so if you don't have a board, you know you're not constituting one until you go public, there's can be a massive amount of clean up that you have to do the us. live.

And so you're end up screamingly to create a board. I think that board of so many purposes early on of giving your advice and giving you structure of providing support, help services, you can still remain in control while getting those things. And i'm just i'm just skeptical, al, that like if you former company with completely passive VC, you don't want serve on aboard, like you're gonna have to do a lot of clean up later. I D say at a minimum total.

I think that that you to I way not I advocate this. But I just think that the reality is that if these largest late stage cross over firms really step into the early stage, I think they could really build a big book of business. Um I do think there are a lot of founders who would love to just be giving the money and just to be left alone.

I'm not saying that they think they know that it's Better for them, but on the margin, just to be able to be left alone. Now what has change? Maybe those everybody's going to be very hands off just because all the fun sizes have exploded. So at that point then you know what is the difference tween zoia and and d one time will tell.

I just know that like what I see a found or doing something that I think could risk the company going off the rails, i'll say so. And then you know if this keeps happening and situation gets worse, i'll say so again. I might mention the third time.

I might not at a certain point and dislike maybe after like two times, i'm like they don't want, listen me, that's fine. Their decision, their company, their decision, they go off the rails, their problem, move on to the next one. I mean, that's a reality.

Sometimes founders have to learn by doing IT, like sometimes they're intent. And you know what they could be right and you could be wrong too. So it's right as a as as hard as a board member, you know that's why I am very judicious in giving advice as a board member now and i'm on a bunch boards and do word training because when the mural of was on my board and he still is, you know, he would ask great questions and he would be very thoughts about he have you thought about this? Or when I got advice from dog market directly, you know dog would say, hey, well, can you share the two year plan with me and i'd say, you know, we haven't built a plan and he said, when you know, Jason, you know, hope is not a plan, let's make a plan and let's discuss, you know, the milestones along here. And I was amazing to have that level of awfulness .

around vision, a onder founder. I really done not. I mean, when I was a founder, I would, even though I was sort of competing with any off, I would meet with him and I would like, get amazing tidbits. Just recently, we did IT wasn't like an official al board meaning because roof isn't on our board but he's a big investor and one of my incubates calling um and we desired a meeting with him .

and and and and and mark IT .

IT was me an axel who is the code call in and um .

and roll off and we had like an amazing meeting where we got like i'd say an amazing advice role that like focus us and IT wasn't that I didn't know these things but it's just like when you're in the weeds, sometimes you don't mostly Chris lies on focus the most important. And I came out that meeting feeling like okay would have just refocused us on the most important thing. And IT was eventually ly valuable. And you've got to be like dumb not to seek that out no matter what stage are at because I seek IT out today.

Yeah and they go about this, David, you're in the thick of things. He's on square board. He's on auther boards. He's got a picture of the entire playing field. It's like somebody who's the coach of fifteen N B A uh teams.

And you're like the coach of one, he's seeing things on other N B A teams that they're doing in method gies and best practices that you're just not going to see. So I mean, again, and then if you look at the great founders, T K used to come to me, uh, and say, hey, you know, this is the thing i'm going to doing, meeting. Here's the thing, can we am out? And he just asked for a jam session.

He came up with that term. And three or four people will get together and just jam and talk for five hours about the product that was awesome. right? Let's go on to, uh, David axis favorite section of the show, science with the size himself.

Oh, and engaged.

In the in the fight, this cover IT. Here is the deal. If David sax is engaged during the science portion of the class, we will let him have a fight as the, as the teacher here tell us a little bit about stem cells and the HIV story.

I was going to tell sex that the earth is round. Okay, it's not flash. I don't care. Yeah um how does .

that affect lana?

So sorry story that I think we wanted to you guys want them to cover today with the .

H I D story which .

um incredible I suggested this topic so i'm interested explained .

to us hip is a retrod virus, meaning once you get infected doesn't go away, doesn't care you. He was supposed .

to say he just put over a bench paro to he's listening to Jordan an Peterson and sam Harris and conversation. He s the H I V being .

cleared headline, uh, you know, we can dive onto IT for two minutes, but H I V A retorted virus. When you get infected with the H I V, IT stays in your body forever. IT actually ends up living inside of your immune cells that took makes IT such an interesting chAllenging virus.

Uh and IT h destroys those immune ells are over time you end up getting eight. And the way that enters the immune cells is through a specific protein. Uh, some people have a genetic mutation where if the there is a change in the their D N A and that protein is different, H I V cannot enter their immune ells and they can actually they are naturally immune HIV.

C C R five yeah .

and so what happened is um found .

found barrenly in White northern new rope's .

anyway so study that was done um all immune cells are made up from stem cells in your bone marrow and so you know all the White blood cells that we have to fight off our diseases come from our boat marrow. And um when you get A A blood cancer, sometimes you end up getting so severe that you have to actually wipe out all immune cells in your body and give yours and you end up with the a bone marrow transplant. So you get new bone marrow put in, new blood self put in, and hopefully if you can survive the therapy and survive that treatment, those, uh, that new bone marrow will produce new immune cells in your body, will recover and you will be cared of your black cancer. So what happened is people had H I V.

And when you get this uh this one merer transplant, you and you know they give you radiation and keep and they wipe out of your blood sales um uh and and then they give you this pot error transport so they selectively chose um uh bone marrow stem cells that came from people that have uh the genetic mutation uh the the uh that prevent so then when these H I V patients that got blood cancer got a boat marrow transplant with this mutation in IT, they were cured of H I V. Um and so it's a pretty profound kind of demonstration of what we already knew, which is that this genetic mutation can um uh can prevent H I V. And there are a lot of therapies that are under way right now uh to actually uh use gene editing uh to uh induce uh that mutation in people's uh blood cells in their bone mro without the the .

first guy I did IT the first guy I did IT was german, right? But he was in german. And I think and he unfortunate passed away.

Uh, they cured his his H I V AIDS. But he unfortunate. Have a relax of the chema that killed them. But I think all three cases of people that um that have been cured have had been these lukie I A patients.

I'll say two things about the future of this kind of possibility. Number one is you don't need to get a bone marrow transplant to have this um mutation induce in yours cells to prevent this infection from uh kind of occuring in your body. You can use gene editing tools to do that.

And so we are now developing gdc therapies were rather than going get a whole booming or transplant to cure your HIV, we can actually edit yourselves. Those editor mells will now be resistant, and you will be result of H. I. V. The second thing is the way that they gave people the bone marrow plan, the way they created those stem cells through the good american anspach ay with from a big ical cord, uh, a blood from from newborns, which is very rich, and stem cells. And this is a traditional way of kind of giving people stem cells by therapists as you go and store stem cells from another body or your own body, which are called August themselves.

But like I want to say one thing, what's really interesting in the future is not going na be about pulling other people stem cells in your body and finding them from, you know, feeble blood, what have you? We now have the technology, which i've talked about multiple times on the show called yum and architecture, with you, ally, we can take yourself ells from your own body, turn them into stem cells, grow them in a lab and use that as the therapy that's called autologous stem cell therapy. And rather than use stem cells are trying to find them and you figure where they are on your body and pull amounts, we can actually duce stem cells from your body that's like, you know fifteen years out is um what toledo is induced stem cell therapy. Will you actually make your own stem cells and then give yourself all sorts of therapies, not just bompard transplant ants, but you can hear lots of tissue in the body using these .

stem sell systems. We don't really hear about H V anymore. Article said that there is about thirty seven million people around the world that have H I V eight. And it's incredible actually, the amount of progress that scientists made in this disease. I remember when I was growing up, IT was made to to be like this incredible boogeymen yeah um and IT really governed like a lot of social norms at the time because we were told discovering what HIV hates was and you know how you know how do you think about sexual uh I E from a moral and ethical perspective .

um I think I had a huge impact on my generation .

and I did IT was a death sentence made in the virus. If the virus is suppressed far enough, even though you are always going to be infected if it's suppressed far enough, the W, H on the F, D, A have both said you can still have unprotected sex and not transmit HIV and so even though there are plenty of people out there that might be having unprotected sex with HIV, um the therapies have suppressed the viral low to the point that they're not transmitting IT actively. It's and that's been the breakthrough through science of the last decade.

And then they also had these prep pills, which people could take to act as if they thought they might, you know, find themselves. But I mean, to move. And I lived in a generation where, I mean.

there was end of x well.

I mean, that was the end of days and they're like.

this school was a single bike thing that I, that I was taught in sexy classes to be afraid of .

scarce at all cost. And then the problem .

that that he created was like, no, in countries that had a large catholic population, you know, the catheter red was so, you know, uh, ever they they were undecided.

On the opposite, they told people in africa to not use condoms when aides was rampant. IT was the biggest evil, second biggest evil the catholic .

church did in .

modern history. No, no.

no, no, I I point relation. Look, I I remember how scare people were of aides near back in the making eighties when this came up. And I remember that there was ahead of the I age who even wipe up people's sphere alone, wiped up people's sphere by saying that even casual, even casual contact with them, the same household can spread IT. And you know, who had.

in my choice.

who had any choice that he dedicated his life to trying to solve and reduce the suffering of suffering, aid and h. In the nineteen eighties.

In the nineteen eighties, he was the face of government difference towards aid, and he spread fear and was medically wrong about, go check the records. He was a scrub then, and he's a scrub now on what he didn't tirely on.

J. L.

I think sex is right in the sense that.

like what we thought we knew back then turned out to be wrong. And I think that's a really important point, you know, particularly in science is a process of discovery. What we thought we knew back then turned out IT was all a hypothesis. It's all of theses until it's proven or disproven. And that's the .

case read Andrew Solomon. I mean, you know faulty was absolutely the enemy public IT was a twenty .

twenty years .

there was actually debate the faulty was in uh on aides where a gay actress literally said to him, I hate you. If you read Andrew solvers blog, he will talk about how he remembers back in the nineteen eighties that foci was sort of public enemy number one in the gay community because of his position on this during the real administration.

And so in a lot of civil disobedience act up member. And he responded by putting massive resources into this. So I think, you know.

if he was that not listening, relevant or not.

what andreotti's .

an is the reason why, more than any other public elections, why we have marriage equality. Today he is number one, he applicant for for merge equality and in the neutral public made the case for .

IT before anybody else.

And popular zed that yeah.

i'm a fan of his writing. You're going to intent you want to believe that voucher is .

an evil person. And I think you and many other people have mysteriously forgotten who fought you really is okay.

You think I know the conspiracy that you think pouches intent is to you cover up the and he intentionally .

was working .

against a som for HIV a really care about his .

intentions. I want to look at his actions. It's amazing. It's amazing to me. It's amazing to me that a public official who was so wrong back then in the nine, nine, eight and one hundred and ninety on the public healthcare at sort time would just be given a free pass. And along comes a new public health crisis in last couple years and is not completely wrong about that too. So why are you giving this guy free pass to get IT hey.

sex in in a cloud of uncertainty, in a time of war, do you think that leaders need to show strong intent and clear signals? Or do you think that they should be wish he washed because they don't know enough?

I think this should be right.

And if they're trying the best with what they have with the information they have at the time that they have IT.

okay. Well, yeah, you there's some forgiveness for for making mistakes. But when you're constantly wrong, maybe it's time to get somebody else on there and look and fought, by the way, fouche up with the metal we talked about before, one hundred percent participated in a suppression of the investigation.

In the origins of covet. There was an active attempt to suppress that. Come on, you know that the the forward email show .

IT is a good science segment.

I do want to a give a shout out to the the researchers, uh, who actually did this with this woman uh in new york is pretty freaking what's incredible .

is that they did IT with um uh H I V patients who had blood cancer and he was a really kind of like thought fully designed experiment.

incredibly thought ful. Yeah and it's been four years. So I mean, this has been baking for a long.

By the way, as I do mountain here, you guys talk about what H I V was like, you know, back in the day and the fear around IT. I do think that thirty, forty years from even the tools we have with induced stem cells and cell based therapies, and there are hundreds of sell based therapies coming to market over the next few years, they're all in late stage clinical trials as well as gene editing.

I think hopefully, and i'm optimistic that one day we will look back a cancer and aging in the same way that we're talking about agv today and that both of those diseases can I will be resolved with the tools that we're developing through science. And you know there there's going to be bobs along the road. But man, I you know, it's so clear .

that so good.

Look, I think I think what freebody just said actually is really important and inspiring, and I think it's great. And I was kind of joking around with the faulty thing. I didn't expect you to become attention, so I don't need to keep going out on where do you see him?

Where do you see him in editing?

Try to change his position. Can you .

use.

In five correct .

position that crope OK. Here we go. David sax and pol gram have gotten into IT. It's a battle for the ages and the stakes are so low, the stakes are so high. And the automotive ity is so high because the stakes are so low.

Uh, here we go. They fill how youth qualified this as a billionaire battle.

literally. He revealed the bonaire, if you follow, filled him its account is being da greatest, being done greatest on where being da greatest 说 no。 Tell how you outed on his twitter.

His new billionaire busy is his, and which he's still busy for me. I used to call very best. He just go up to IT like a cop ted me calling from off the dictator. But i'll tell the dictator, original or later, is standing from doorstep.

standing cofounder, two product .

officer.

great guy.

exactly because that he found IT. Okay, here we, so you can introduce to poll.

Gram, here's the issue to pick. What's your here we got. Actually.

I did not .

seek out this. Sten pg waited into my tweets. He came after me. I love IT, please. Any billion's out there want to like debate, like come waiting into my tweet. My cuban did ask himself, I don't want to deter these guys from from waiting.

And this great here's what basically happened is I tweed, a video of all these multimillionaire lebron hypocrites party masses at the super mall. And then meanwhile, the next day, my three kids have to go to school in california wearing their mass. That is ridiculous.

okay? That makes no sense. We all know that. okay? Any same person knows that. That's why waited about, I don't know why, of all issues I was triggered a pg, but he had to come in and say what they all party outdoors.

So I really, uh, looks to me like they're in a skybox and if IT has three walls in the ceiling, I called out a room but in any event, that wasn't he. He was misinformed because the rule the super bowl was that if you are not eating and drinking anyone under over the age of two that you're wearing a mask. So, you know, my point stands. I just .

want to air .

so so here's where things kind of went self is is so that I twisted playing twice, you know, paul. And and here's a thing I wasn't totally trying to be stocky with that comment. Here's why I said that is because explain .

what that means. I didn't understand that.

What does that mean? Blink twice. Well.

that means like you are a capture, you're being held kidnap by these concepts that you have to warn.

no, you're being held hostage by somebody. And the reason says that is because is look, if if if pg had just been some crazy dumper and everyone has said that the fact is that pg is smart. He writes extremely well, published a lot of interesting things, is an independent thinker.

So IT almost seems to me like somebody, he's holding a hostage here. Because how can this really smart person be making this case anyway? I kind of oneself from there, oh, I have no desire to continue that.

Meanwhile, candle gender or north .

face shoes to justice. I know just how gossip, gossip. All right. So this has been sexes the corner for the week.

A and lar segment.

I just did. I need the segments a quarter.

but I want to want to stay on the main issue here, which is i'll please us do in every week. But yes, but am I wrong about this mascotech .

racy that's going on?

How in the world one hundred percent support for sex? X, on the statement, I totally agree with you on the democracy as well as the mass media in schools. I think it's ridiculous that we ve pivoted so far away from first principal thinking on this stuff. It's not I totally agree with you completely and um on this point you wasting your time fighting with people on twitter by personal advice, you as a friend is just cut IT out but you are you got anybody totally agree.

Entertainment aren't everybody for the dictator himself? Math pi hopeton a rain men yeah David sacks and the sult of science if you see him out and about a size. Time on the old pod, love you best.

your.

World, man.

We open sources to the fans and they .

just got crazy.

You should all just get a room and just have one big, huge because like like sexual attention they need.

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We need to get.