Deep Dive
Shownotes Transcript
By almost any measure, a president openly defying a court order would represent a constitutional crisis, a tectonic event in American history.
And yet when President Trump was asked on Sunday whether he had defied a federal judge's order, he said he wasn't sure. The order in question came from a federal judge in Washington, D.C. on Saturday. He told the administration not to deport Venezuelans to El Salvador. Trump had just invoked the Alien Enemies Act to remove people he said were members of a gang. And the judge ordered the government to turn around any planes already in the air.
At a press briefing Monday, White House Press Secretary Caroline Leavitt offered slightly more clarity on the administration's actions. All of the planes subject to the written order of this judge departed U.S. soil, U.S. territory before the judge's written order. But what about
the verbal order, which of course carries the same legal weight as a written order, and said for the planes to turn around if they were in the air. Well, there's actually questions about whether a verbal order carries the same weight as a written order, and our lawyers are determined to ask and answer those questions in court.
Here's what's not in dispute. More than 250 Venezuelans, some of whom the Trump administration says are members of a criminal gang, were ultimately taken to El Salvador on Saturday. El Salvador is holding them in the country's terrorism confinement center.
The Salvadoran president posted a headline about the judicial order on X with the caption, Oopsie, too late, and a laugh-crying emoji. Secretary of State Marco Rubio retweeted it. That whole episode came after a Brown University physician in the United States on a special work visa from Lebanon was sent back, even though a federal judge issued an order that she appear at an in-person hearing on Monday.
In a court filing today, lawyers for the government said U.S. Customs and Border Patrol officers said they didn't learn of the judge's order until after the doctor was sent back.
Members of the administration have attacked federal judges for blocking Trump's actions. They've even suggested courts don't always have the authority to overrule the executive branch. Levitt was asked about that directly on Monday, and her answer was less direct. It is the administration's belief that you feel like you are bound to comply by the judge's orders? We are compliant with the judge's orders.
Consider this. Trump hasn't yet openly and explicitly defied the courts. Can he undermine them just by flirting with defiance? From NPR, I'm Ari Shapiro. This message comes from NPR sponsor, Sotva. Founder and CEO Ron Rudson shares why Sotva sales associates are focused on finding the perfect mattress for their customers.
It's not for you to have a 365-day home trial. Why would we want to rush you or try to push you into something that's not right for you? We want to make sure that we guide you to the right mattress. Our team is always available to be helpful, to make sure you make the right choice. To learn more, go to s-double-a-t-v-a-dot-com-slash-n-p-r. This message comes from Schwab. At Schwab, how you invest is your choice, not theirs.
That's why when it comes to managing your wealth, Schwab gives you more choices. You can invest and trade on your own. Plus, get advice and more comprehensive wealth solutions to help meet your unique needs. With award-winning service, low costs, and transparent advice, you can manage your wealth your way at Schwab. Visit Schwab.com to learn more.
This message comes from Comcast. Every day, thousands of Comcast engineers and technologists create connectivity solutions that change the way people work, live, and play. Like Kunle, a Comcast engineer who is focused on revolutionizing the in-home Wi-Fi experience today and for the next generation. Kunle builds powerful Xfinity Wi-Fi devices for a fast, reliable connection with capacity to connect hundreds of high-bandwidth devices at once. More at comcastcorporation.com slash Wi-Fi.
It's Consider This from NPR. Last month, I asked University of Virginia law professor Amanda Frost whether Trump's earlier battles with the judicial system had created a constitutional crisis. And she told me, not yet. As of today, at this moment, the executive branch has not taken the position that it can violate court orders or that it does not need to comply with court orders. And I think that's a very important point.
So as long as we remain in a system in which the executive follows or at least states that it has to follow what a court says, I have hope that the system will hold. Well, in light of everything that just happened, is the system still holding? Amanda Frost is with us again. It's good to have you back. Thank you. We just heard what your benchmark was last month after the events of this weekend. Where would you say we are?
I would say that we are dangerously close to crossing that line that we discussed about a month ago. The administration continues to say that it is not refusing to comply with court orders.
But we have seen it behave in disingenuous ways in terms of ignoring what courts have told it to do. And so I'm extremely worried. I want to dig into that behaving disingenuously because not to make light of a serious situation, but I think about like two kids in the backseat of a car and one kid says, I am not putting my hand over the line that you told me not to cross. And if any reasonable observer would say, actually, you are, does it matter that the annoying brother is saying, no, I'm not?
Well, I think it does matter in this context because I think there is a difference in kind if an administration says we no longer have to do what a court tells us to do. And this administration has yet to say that. Nonetheless, I think it is extremely disturbing that this administration is playing so fast and loose with the courts. I keep thinking about that oopsie too late post on X, which suggests that perhaps deliberately the administration is
is operating in a way that is hard for courts to keep up with. And there are other examples. Last week, there was a hearing before a federal judge in Maryland about layoffs of government workers. And a government lawyer said he didn't know whether anyone in government could say how many probationary workers had been fired. In this Venezuelan case, Trump invoked the Alien Enemies Act without providing the courts much time at all to stop these planes of migrants that were heading for El Salvador.
How do behaviors, how do actions like that impact the judicial branch's ability to do its job? Well, there's no question but that the courts are extremely busy at the moment. But courts are used to dealing with issues on emergency bases. And I would say the branch of government that is most suffering from the flood the zone approach is the executive branch itself.
Its filings are sloppy, filled with inaccuracies. It doesn't have the information it needs to inform judges about what's happening. It is failing in its role before the courts. And we're seeing the result, which is they're losing most of these cases. And so if that's the case, do you think it's just a matter of time until all this gets sorted out and everyone is back in their proper lane?
When I'm feeling optimistic, what I hope will happen is what's intended, which is that the courts, together with the executive, hash out what the law requires. The executive complies, even when it doesn't like the result.
And the end result is a win for the rule of law. When I'm pessimistic, I fear for what is to come by an administration that seems to be willing to walk right up to the line of open impunity of the law. If I could summarize your view as the clock ticks ever closer to midnight, but we aren't quite there yet. Do you have a sense of how widespread that view is? Like, do your colleagues say you're being naively optimistic or Pollyanna-ish? Or are your views pretty mainstream at this point?
I would say I've heard a variety of perspectives. Some people think we are deep into constitutional crisis already.
Others think we need to wait before we make such a declaration. And I guess I'm in that latter camp. And part of the reason for that is our nation has weathered storms before and we have pulled through. I mean, one example, of course, is Bush versus Gore. That was an extraordinary legal decision deciding a razor thin election in a way that many people didn't like. And the nation took a deep breath and followed the law.
My fear is that that isn't occurring this time, but I'm not going to declare that our system is broken until the administration clearly crosses that line. I will say that we've gone a significant step towards that since the last time we spoke a month ago. Does the phrase constitutional crisis actually matter? I mean, if every constitutional law professor in the country were to say, yes, we are in a constitutional crisis right now, would that actually change anything?
I think what would change, and of course it wouldn't just be professors of constitutional law, it would be the nation as a whole, it would be the markets, it would be the American people. I think what has to change is the idea that this is acceptable. We are a nation which for well over 200 years has had a constitution that we revere. For nearly that long, we've had a view that courts are the last word on the meaning of law, whether we like those decisions or not. If we lose that...
we lose one of the most powerfully important aspects of our constitutional republic. And I fear we might never get it back. Amanda Frost is a professor of law at the University of Virginia Law School. Thank you for talking with us once again. Thank you. This episode was produced by Connor Donovan. It was edited by Courtney Dourning and Nadia Lancey. Our executive producer is Sammy Yenigan. Thank you.
It's Consider This from NPR. I'm Ari Shapiro.
Support for NPR and the following message come from State Farm. As a State Farm agent and agency owner, Lakeisha Gaines understands the support small businesses need. Knowing that no business is the same, knowing that we're all impacted by things that are beyond our control like catastrophes, and hearing and listening and understanding what's important to a business owner, understanding how much is truly affordable and what makes sense at that moment. Because a three-year psychiatrist
It's going to be very different than a 20-year doctor. And a two-year sign owner is going to be very different than a one-month restaurant owner who's just trying to figure out what's going to be on the menu next month. Those are the things that I think are extremely important that come to my experience as a small business owner. It's me figuring out how to help the people that I live with, how to help the people that I work with, how to help the people that I volunteer with.
Talk to your local agent about small business insurance from State Farm. Like a good neighbor, State Farm is there. This message comes from Warby Parker. If you wear glasses, you know how hard it is to find the perfect pair. But step into a Warby Parker store and you'll see it doesn't have to be. Find a Warby Parker store near you at warbyparker.com slash retail.
This message comes from Mint Mobile. Mint Mobile took what's wrong with wireless and made it right. They offer premium wireless plans for less, and all plans include high-speed data, unlimited talk and text, and nationwide coverage. See for yourself at mintmobile.com slash switch.