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cover of episode NPR takes Trump to court

NPR takes Trump to court

2025/5/27
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Consider This from NPR

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Catherine Maher
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David Folkenflik
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Harrison Fields
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James Comer
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Marjorie Taylor Greene
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Mary Louise Kelly
经验丰富的广播记者和新闻主播,目前担任NPR《所有事情都被考虑》的共同主播。
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James Comer: 我个人对公共广播电台失去了信心,我认为他们不应该从联邦政府获得任何资金支持。我认为他们存在偏见,没有公正地为所有美国人服务。 Mary Louise Kelly: 作为NPR的主持人,我想强调的是,当NPR成为新闻事件的主角时,我们的报道团队,包括记者和编辑,都保持完全的独立性,不受任何公司高层或管理人员的干预。我们以同样的方式报道自己,就像报道其他任何组织一样,确保公正和透明。 Marjorie Taylor Greene: 我认为NPR的资金来源不应该仅仅依赖于一部分美国纳税人。要知道,还有数千万的美国人支持特朗普总统,他们的声音也应该被听到。NPR应该考虑到所有美国人的观点,而不是只关注一部分人的利益。 Catherine Maher: 作为NPR的总裁兼首席执行官,我认为特朗普总统的行政命令是对我们新闻自由的直接威胁。我们相信,我们有权像任何其他新闻机构一样,自由地选择我们的报道内容和方式。我们提起诉讼,是为了捍卫我们的第一修正案权利,确保我们能够继续为公众提供公正、客观的新闻报道。我们不会因为政府的压力而改变我们的报道方式,我们将继续追求卓越的新闻质量。 David Folkenflik: 特朗普总统的行政命令,实际上是试图通过切断资金来控制NPR和PBS的内容。总统认为这些媒体存在偏见,并试图利用行政权力来惩罚他们。然而,这种做法不仅违反了宪法第一修正案,也侵犯了国会的权力。NPR和一些地方电台正在起诉,以捍卫他们的言论自由和编辑独立性。我认为,这起诉讼不仅仅关乎NPR和PBS的生存,更关乎整个新闻行业的未来。 Harrison Fields: 作为白宫发言人,我认为总统有权决定如何使用纳税人的钱。如果公共广播公司利用这些资金来支持特定的政治立场,那么总统有权采取行动。总统的行政命令是为了确保纳税人的钱不被用于资助偏见,而是用于真正服务于公众利益的项目。总统有责任确保纳税人的钱被有效地使用,他将继续利用他的合法权力来实现这一目标。

Deep Dive

Chapters
Republican Congressman James Comer and other representatives at a House hearing in March accused NPR of liberal bias, citing social media posts by CEO Catherine Maher and alleging insufficient coverage of the Hunter Biden laptop story. These accusations led to calls for defunding or dismantling public media, culminating in President Trump's executive order.
  • Republican accusations of liberal bias at NPR
  • Criticism of NPR's coverage of the Hunter Biden laptop story
  • Calls for defunding NPR and public media

Shownotes Transcript

Translations:
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NPR has been in the news lately. I've lost confidence in public radio. I don't think, Madam Chair, they should get a penny of federal funds. That's Republican Congressman James Comer of Kentucky at a House hearing back in March. The title of that hearing? Anti-American Airwaves Holding the Heads of NPR and PBS Accountable.

NPR, of course, is the news outlet that makes this podcast a reminder here about how we cover our own organization. David Fokenflik, our media reporter, as well as his editors and other journalists like me working on stories about NPR, all operate without involvement from corporate officials or news execs.

At that March hearing, Republicans accused NPR of a liberal bias and attacked social media posts that NPR CEO Catherine Maher made before she joined NPR. Let me inform you that your federal funding is also paid for by the other half of the country. That is Republican Representative Marjorie Taylor Greene from Georgia. The 77 million Americans who voted for President Trump.

someone you called a deranged, racist sociopath. Marr defended NPR's work. She also expressed regret for those tweets and for some of NPR's past news coverage. I do want to say that NPR acknowledges that we were mistaken in failing to cover the Hunter Biden laptop story more aggressively and sooner. And she pointed to new initiatives aimed at ensuring fair journalism—

These changes came to the newsroom after one of our senior editors wrote an essay last year alleging liberal bias at NPR. He has since resigned. Maher said NPR has sought to...

Throughout the hearing, Republicans called for cutting or eliminating federal funding for public media. Greene was unequivocal. After listening to what we've heard today, we will be calling for the complete and total defund and dismantling of the Corporation for Public Broadcasting.

Consider this. The White House didn't wait for Congress. Trump signed an executive order this month seeking to end federal funding to NPR and PBS. Now, NPR and some member stations are suing. From NPR, I'm Mary Louise Kelly.

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It's Consider This from NPR. The lawsuit was filed this morning by NPR and three Colorado public radio stations. We're going to start with the details of that suit and what prompted it. And for that, I'm joined by NPR media correspondent David Fokenflik. Hey, David. Hey. On what grounds are NPR and these local stations suing?

So there was this executive order that the president put out on May 1st and then was accompanied by a memo the next day in which essentially he said the coverage on NPR and PBS was biased and that he was acting to ensure that that would not be subsidized by federal taxpayer money. And the accompanying material made clear that he thought they were biased against the right, that they were woke, they were left wing propaganda. Choose any epithet that you are denigration that you want that's popular these days in his circles.

NPR and the stations are making two arguments in the court filings fundamentally. One is that he's trying to the president is trying to usurp congressional power and authority to pass laws, to set budgets, to determine where money should be spent and how and to even set certain kinds of protections for the Corporation for Public Broadcasting and public broadcasters in law. The corporation being how money is funneled to public broadcasters like NPR stations.

The second and in some ways more fundamental element is that NPR's arguing this is a violation of NPR's free speech protections in the Constitution, that by grounding his executive order in the accusation of bias, he's saying he doesn't like that speech. Those aren't grounds he can act, is their argument. I mentioned there are three stations, all Colorado stations that have joined NPR in this suit. What is their role here?

So in a sense, they're very representative. Our CEO, Catherine Marr, put out a call and said who'd be interested in joining. Three stations from Colorado each joined. One was Colorado Public Radio, effectively a statewide network. One, Aspen Public Radio, reaches...

predominantly a rural audience. And one, KSUT, was founded by the Native American Ute tribe some decades ago, now serves four federally recognized tribes in the Four Corners area of the American Southwest. Each says they have a lot at stake, that federal funding isn't the

majority of their funding, but it's a lifeline to help them keep afloat to get, yes, NPR programs, but also do important coverage of news and culture that's vital to their listenership there. Okay. So this is an effort to make clear what the stakes are for local audiences, local communities. The White House has responded. What is it saying?

So a spokesperson told me this morning that the president is acting within his lawful authority to ensure the taxpayer dollars don't go towards funding bias. PBS is not part of this lawsuit, but tells me today it's weighing its options. And interestingly, the Corporation of Public Broadcasting itself, which technically a private corporation, is not suing over this, but has already sued the president over his efforts to fire three of their five board members. They say he doesn't have the authority to do that.

Give us the broader context here. The Trump executive order is part of a broader attack on public media, on media writ large. Where do things stand?

Well, there's no money has been frozen yet by the Corporation of Public Broadcasting. They say he just doesn't have the standing or power to do that. We'll see what a judge says. The Federal Communications Commission is investigating the corporate underwriting spots. And there's been, of course, a call from the president's allies in Congress to eliminate all funding for public media. And as you say, it's part of a larger essentially assault on the standing and financial grounding of both public media and the media writ large.

NPR media correspondent David Fulkenflik. Thank you, David. You bet. Now, as we noted at the top, when NPR is in the news, we report on ourselves as we would any other organization. So we invited NPR president and CEO Catherine Marr to walk downstairs from her office here at headquarters to Studio 31 to take our questions. Catherine, welcome. Lovely to be here.

In the interest of transparency, I want to note we asked to interview you because you're a stakeholder in this news story. You don't know what I'm about to ask. You had no input into these questions. That's right. Okay. So to the questions.

The lawsuit cites NPR's First Amendment right, quote, to be free from government attempts to control private speech, as well as retaliation aimed at punishing and chilling protected speech, end quote. Can you explain in plain English what that means, what the thrust of this lawsuit is? So NPR is a private organization, and we have the right as a media organization to make our own...

editorial choices about what it is that we cover and how we cover it. And what we found in the executive order was that the order itself

Right.

It's very clear from the Public Broadcasting Act that public media is meant to be an independent source of information. And in fact, it is protected in the statute that established the Corporation for Public Broadcasting. We believe that this is an infringement on NPR's First Amendment rights, but it is also an infringement on those rights of our station, both their editorial First Amendment rights and their rights to associate with NPR if they are unable to use their funds to choose to air our program.

So the argument, as I understand what you're saying, is that NPR, like any other news organization in the United States, is free to choose what it covers, how it covers it, what language we use to do so. That's correct. And even though we receive federal funding, we are still protected by those same rights. There's a line that jumped out at me that I marked in the lawsuit, and I'll quote it.

It is not always obvious when the government has acted with a retaliatory purpose in violation of the First Amendment, but this wolf comes as a wolf. Antonin Scalia. Yeah. It's a great line. The late conservative Supreme Court Justice Scalia. What does it mean here? In this instance, it is evident from the president's executive order, as well as statements released by the White House and prior statements by the president, that we are being punished for our editorial choices.

What about PBS? Because the executive order targeted funding to NPR and PBS. Why is PBS not suing alongside NPR? Well, PBS is a separate organization. We know from their statement when the executive order came out that they similarly find this order to be unlawful. Do you worry about further retaliation? We're witnessing with Harvard what happens when an institution decides to stand up and fight back.

We definitely thought about what the consequences might be when we move forward to file the suit. And I should say that we are not choosing to do this out of politics. We are choosing to do this as a matter of necessity and principle. All of our rights that we enjoy in this democracy flow from the First Amendment, freedom of speech, association, freedom of the press. When we see those rights infringed upon, we have an obligation to challenge them. And that's what's at stake here.

And retaliation is something we all think about. And yet the principle of what we do and how we do it, we have to defend our editorial integrity and the integrity of those rights. Yeah.

For people listening, will NPR sound any different as this plays out? No, I don't believe so. The entire point of going forward with this litigation is to protect our editorial independence. And as you started this segment by saying, there is a firewall between the newsroom and management such as myself.

I believe that the way that we do our work and the way that we are successful is by pursuing journalism that is excellent. And so I don't think we'll sound different. I think we'll sound exactly as we are, fair, responsible, nonpartisan, and seeking the facts. Last thing, Catherine Marr, the backdrop here is, of course, bigger than NPR. It's bigger than public broadcasting. We are witnessing a wider assault by the Trump administration on a free press.

Are you speaking with leaders of other news organizations about how to navigate this moment? Are you getting support from other news organizations? Yeah, I've had a number of conversations with leaders of larger media organizations, even than NPR. And I do believe that many of us feel as though this is a very difficult moment for this profession. Also a difficult moment for our role as the press in democracy. And I think that that is the...

Without sounding grandiose, I think that's what animates many people who step into newsroom roles, leadership roles at media organizations. And so we're feeling not just the importance of the moment in terms of operations of an NPR or another media company, but really sort of the existential moment for what is it that we're doing to serve the American public right now. Thank you. Thank you.

That's Catherine Marr, NPR's CEO and president. And NPR did reach out to the White House for comment on the lawsuit. Here is what we heard back today from White House spokesperson Harrison Fields. The Corporation for Public Broadcasting, CPB, is creating media to support a particular political party on the taxpayer's dime. Therefore, the president is exercising his lawful authority to limit funding to NPR and PBS. Mr. Fields continues, quote,

The president was elected with a mandate to ensure efficient use of taxpayer dollars, and he will continue to use his lawful authority to achieve that objective. This episode was produced by Matt Ozog and Connor Donovan. It was edited by Patrick Jaron-Wadanan, Courtney Dorney, Emily Kopp, and Vicki Walton-James. Our executive producer is Sammy Yenigan. It's Consider This from NPR. I'm Mary Louise Kelly.

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