Rick Steves Is Tired of Hearing 'Have a Safe Trip'
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Today's episode comes to you from the Cascade PBS Ideas Festival in Seattle. Recently, my co-host Ryan Knudson sat down with travel business mogul Rick Steves in front of a live audience. Steves talks about his business and his progressive politics and how they intersect. You can watch the interview as a video on Spotify. Rick Steves' first trip to Europe was in 1969 when he was 14 years old, and he's been addicted to traveling ever since.

He parlayed that addiction into one of the most well-known travel businesses in the US. He's got a line of popular travel guides, he's taken tens of thousands of people on tours around Europe, and he's had a travel show on PBS since the 1990s. Rick Steves has built a philosophy around travel as a political act, an act that fosters understanding, challenges stereotypes, and in his words, fights xenophobia.

At the same time, something strange is happening. Travel has never been easier. But while record numbers of Americans are now traveling abroad, the US is also becoming more nativist and more isolationist. So what does Rick Steves make of this contradiction? Are people just traveling the wrong way? And do people even need a Rick Steves in the age of smartphones and artificial intelligence?

Welcome to The Journal, our show about money, business, and power. I'm Ryan Knudson. Coming up on the show, a conversation with Rick Steves. This episode is brought to you by U.S. Bank. With U.S. Bank Business Essentials, you get more than just a bank. You get a dedicated partner that provides you a powerful combo of checking and card payment processing with quick access to the money you've earned.

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So I'm, as we've been talking about, and everybody in the green room knows, I'm on parental leave right now, and my nine-month-old son is here, hopefully sleeping with Jake, with the babysitter right now.

But when they reached out to have a conversation with you, I was like, I have to do this. And because I'm on parental leave, I felt like the first question that I have to ask you is about my own upcoming trip, which is my wife and I are taking our nine-month-old and his older brother, who's two and a half, to Europe this summer. It's a very controversial thing to do, to travel with small children. So what's your take? Well, I had...

20 years of experience with traveling with our kids. Yes. And they were the same ages as yours, two and a half years apart or something like that. And my big advice, if you've got kids your age and you ask, where should we go? I would say to grandma and grandpa's on the way to the airport. You know, I mean. Yeah, they're right there. Grandma and grandpa. There you go. Honestly, I would say if you've got a two week vacation, um,

Have a week with the kids that have run for us here and then have a week of adult travel in Europe. Having said that, we never did that. We took our kids to Europe every spring. We took our kids out of school throughout the grade school years in April, and they had a better education in Europe. And I am so committed to the idea that if you can afford it and if you're willing to compromise from an adult travel point of view to make it a family occasion, it is beautiful parenting and you will never regret it.

I really believe if everybody traveled before they could vote, this world would be a much more stable and just and beautiful place. Thank you.

Well, I want to talk about that. But before I do, I want to talk a little bit about business, given that we are primarily a business show. So before the pandemic in 2019, you had $100 million in revenue. And then how many years of zero revenue? Just 2020, 2021? Well, throughout the pandemic, we had negative revenue because we had 100 people on the payroll and no income. And you kept them on the payroll, too? Yes, we did. Thank you.

But as a private business, you know, you don't have the pressure from shareholders to, other than yourself. We don't have the pressure from shareholders, but if shareholders were smart, they would understand that when you have a great team of 100 people and suddenly something unpredictable happens and you can't earn any money, you don't want to disband that team. You'll need that team when you get back into normalcy again.

That's the pragmatic wisdom of keeping your staff together. But I think it's also just an ethical thing to do. For 30 years, I had been making money off of my hardworking employees.

mission-driven staff. And for three years, I'm not making money off of them. Well, you know, that's part of being a good businessman. And I just think I'm so thankful I was able to... I had enough reserve capital to make the payroll through those years. That's a lot of payroll, 100 people for two years or three years. But...

Right now, looking back at it, I'm just, it was sabbatical for everybody. And, you know, thank God we're back on board and life is good.

Yeah, you recently published a book on the hippie trail, which is just your notebook, basically, from 1978 when you were 23 years old, going from Istanbul to Kathmandu, which you discovered during the pandemic. We're all looking for things to spend our time with. I was binge watching Rick Steves' shows so I can have some escapism. You were looking through your notebooks and reminiscing on old times. But one of the things that really struck me in your book was

was how you said that you packed enough film to take nine photos a day. Right. And I thought to myself, "Wow, I take nine photos a minute when I'm traveling."

I'm old enough to know that I just have that memory that you would never go click, click, and I'll do another one, click, because you had nine a day, because you had 36 in a canister, and you're on the road for 70 days, and you already have 20% of your packing light bag filled with film canisters. You have divided out, you know, 20 rolls times 36 divided by how many days, and that must have, if I did my arithmetic correct, it must have been nine a day. Yeah, I don't know if you fact-checked yourself there at the end, but it's also just like you can't,

A trip like that's just not even possible in today's world where you were going around, you were writing about how you're on the bus

And you don't really know much about where you're going. You're asking people that are sitting next to you, do you know anything about where we're headed and what we can do and get there? And it was just, you're flying by the seat of your pants. But now, I mean, that era is gone. Or do you think there's still ways you can find that kind of magic? Yeah. Ryan, you're talking about an age when there was not a glut of information. There was not enough good travel information in 1978 when I did this. And

And when you leave Istanbul and head east, for me it was like going behind the dark side of the moon. It was an adventure. You can't do that adventure today. But the takeaway from my hippie trail book is

is that, okay, I'm 23 years old, 1978, doing the ultimate road trip. On the last year, by the way, that you could do it, before the Shah fell and Khomeini came in in Iran, and before the Soviet Union invaded Afghanistan the next year. So that was the end of the hippie trail. It was the perfect time in my life, the perfect time to do the hippie trail, and I journaled it with a 60,000-word intimate journal, and I documented with all these photographs. I mean, it was just like...

45 years later, it's just dying to be a book. And I didn't even know I had it until COVID. And then I remembered I have this journal. But about can you do that now? The takeaway is you can't do the physical trip, but you can have the hippie trail experience. Even in our comfortable age, if you get out of your comfort zone, recognize we can learn more about our home by leaving it and looking at it from a distance. And when serendipity knocks, you say yes.

And I am inspired by people who are in their 20s now that are having a hippie trail experience by doing that real travel. And that's the fundamental decision travelers have to make is, am I just going to do the bucket list thing or am I going to do let's explore the world and lose ourselves in it? And I just love that's our that's our mission where I work is to equip and inspire Americans to venture beyond Orlando. That's it.

When was the last time you were in Orlando? I stay away from Orlando. I don't think they like me there. I was doing some... Their slogan just must be, Rick Steves is wrong. No, no, no. Here's the deal. Go to Disney World four or five times, but then try Portugal. Well, so, as I was mentioning earlier...

More Americans are traveling abroad now than they ever have before. There's a Pew study out not too long ago that said that 76% of Americans have left the country once. Half of Americans have traveled to between one and four countries. And yet we're seeing in the U.S. over the last several years this America first political shift, isolationism, people are becoming more nationalistic. Are people traveling wrong?

Well, I think the people that are traveling are the people that probably don't need to travel as much as the people who are not traveling. Half of America does not travel. Half of America dreams of building walls. The takeaway when you travel is you realize how it is folly to think that you'll be safer if you build walls.

If you build walls, you're planting the seeds of instability and danger for your society. And what we need to do is build bridges to the other 96% of humanity outside of our country. And that's just a beautiful thing. It's a beautiful thing from an ethical point of view and a love-your-neighbor point of view. And it's also a beautiful thing from just a pragmatic security point of view. It is so tragic to think that we can be safer by withdrawing from the world.

We are the most fearful. I'm just so tired of hearing people say, have a safe trip.

When somebody tells me, "Have a safe trip," I'm inclined to say, "Well, you have a safe stay at home." Because where I am traveling statistically, and I know statistics are optional these days, but where I'm traveling statistically is safer than where you're staying. Americans live in a very dangerous place, you see. So I lament the loss of bon voyage. Remember, if you're old enough, when people used to say, "Bon voyage, have a great trip." When I went on the most dangerous trip of my life, Hippie Trail.

It was bon voyage. And I came home with a broader perspective, on track to have a very fulfilling life. That was a beautiful, beautiful experience. Fear is for people who don't get out very much.

You've gotten more attention or become more outspoken in recent years about your political views, which you've been talking about a little bit so far. You endorsed Kamala Harris for president. You're pretty outspoken as an advocate for the legalization of marijuana. How has that affected your business to be more outspoken about politics? I guess I've gotten to the point where my business is strong enough that I don't make my personal political decisions based on what's good for my business.

I remember when we were getting into the Gulf War and I just didn't believe that this was the right thing for our country to do. And I put up a peace sign outside of my office in Edmonds. And I was across the street, just walking down the street from my office. And a man said, hey, Rick, I bet you if you realized how much that peace sign was costing your business, you would have thought twice about putting it up.

And it occurred to me, really? You would support a war you don't believe in for what's good for your business? That honestly did not even register to me that that was an option for a person with any ethics at all.

to support a war by calculating how it would impact its business. And now I've been an outspoken advocate about how racist and non-productive and wrong-minded and against civil liberties our prohibition against marijuana is, for example. And I'm bringing home a European sensibility to that because in Europe a joint's about as exciting as a...

as a can of beer, you know, and it's a laughable thing in Europe that they would lock anybody up for smoking marijuana. Well, every once in a while, I'll meet somebody when I'm out giving a talk, and they say, Rick, we know what you think about marijuana, and we're not going to take your tours, and we're not going to use your guidebooks. And all I can think is, Europe's going to be more fun without you. But so, do you feel like you are alienated part of a potential customer base? No. Well...

Okay, there's the openness that I don't believe President Trump is good for America. Does that alienate people from going on my tours? That would be the immediate question, I suppose. I don't think... I think people, when they want to go to Europe, they want good information, and my information is so good that they will just hold their nose and consume it. You know, because we get a lot of...

People all across the political spectrum taking our tours. We take 30,000 Americans on our tours every year. We have 100 busloads of Americans in Europe today at the same time all over Europe. And for me, I love the fact, not that we've got a bunch of progressive people that love their escargot,

having a good time, but we've got a lot of people that are dealing with some pretty exciting culture shock who are having their fears challenged and their sensibilities challenged by other societies that have the same challenges that are addressing those challenges differently and in some cases better. So for me, the most profitable person on my tour bus would be the more conservative person that's going to have a more broadening experience. So

I rally my guides. I've got 100 Europeans who are guides for me. And, you know, they say it's complicated when we have mega people on our bus. Hey, this is what it's all about, is to everybody wants to better. I think everybody wants to understand the world better. And here's our opportunity. It's a golden opportunity to help people come home with a little broader perspective. And long story short...

If my political outspokenness has had an impact on my business, if it scared away a few people, that has more than been mitigated by how much of a publicity stunt it's been.

Because you get more headlines. And more, I get far more headlines. But then you sort of- And legalized marijuana and all of a sudden, twice as many people are buying your books, you know? Well, it's funny, you know, I was asking people, I was like, I'm interviewing Rick Steves, like, what should I ask him about? Everyone's like, ask him about marijuana. Yeah. Have you thought about getting into the marijuana business in some fashion? I've had so many marijuana entrepreneurs want to name a strain of cannabis after me.

And as a matter of principle, I want nothing to do with the green rush, you know. And actually, that's been a good decision from a business point of view because the cannabis industry is in terrible straits right now. What are some of the names that people have pitched to you? I have no idea. For those strains? Yeah, Rick Sativa, something like that. Yeah, something like that.

Rick Steve Viva. I don't know, but for me, it's easy to joke about marijuana, but for me, it is a very serious issue dealing with racism, mass incarceration,

uh, stoking, uh, uh, a black market that enriches and empowers gangs and organized crime rather than provides a highly regulated, um, industry that employs people. And fundamentally it's against our civil liberties. So I give talks all over the country, uh,

about marijuana, and I can, as a business person, as a Christian, as a parent, as somebody who would be kind of, you'd be surprised, what do you really think about that? I have no problem saying I work hard all day long. If I go home, I'm a tax-raising, church-going, grandkid-adoring, hard-working American citizen. I have every right to just smoke a joint and stare at the fireplace for three hours. LAUGHTER

Because that is my civil liberty. Now, do I have a right to sell it to a miner or get high and go drive? Of course not. Throw the book at me. But it's a principled civil liberty stance. And it's one of those things that I can, I just love taking home sensibilities from my travels.

That's just one of the beautiful values of travel. Have you thought about traveling more within the United States? Yes. Because one of the things that people... There's a lot of... There's a big divide. Speaking of bridges that need to be built between the left and the right and people... I think you'd self-describe yourself as a coastal elite, well-traveled. But a lot of people on the right feel very talked down to and very paternalistic. And so...

No, it's absolutely true. And that's something I need to work on. Lately, Ryan, I've been thinking a lot about walls.

I'm fascinated by walls. You know, the Berlin Wall, the wall in Belfast between Protestants and Catholics, the wall in the Holy Land. There are physical walls and there are metaphorical walls. We have a huge wall in our country between red and blue. And it's a metaphorical wall. And my challenge is to better understand the people on the other side of our metaphorical wall. When I give a

I've been talking at rallies lately and I don't wear blue. I specifically wear purple. Foreign visitors to the US are declining pretty significantly. I think Canada might be the number one decline year over year. Would you give your best Rick Steves pitch for why people should come to America as a tourist? To be honest,

If somebody asked me, should I go to, if they're a European or Canadian, should I go to America? I'd say no. Why? Because we should pay the price for our policies. I, you know, I think the only thing that's going to wake America up, sadly, is the equivalent of the cost of eggs. You know, I mean, I would not vote, and I'm privileged. I've got enough money to pay triple for the eggs, and I'll still have my omelet, you know. But it is so fundamental that,

the values that are on the line for us right now. I think we're going to pay a steep price in many realms, and one of them will be tourism. Tourism is one of the biggest employers on the planet. And the brand of America is something I've long been tuned into. The brand of America is something for real. And with Obama, America was cool. And people wanted to consume America. They wanted to wear America.

Today, do you think people want to consume and wear America? I don't think so, and it's going to just get worse. We have one minute left. I want to do a little speed round, so as quick answers as you can possibly come up with. Have you thought about retirement? I just turned 70, and I'm so thankful I found a niche, and I've been doing the same thing with Laser Focus, where I'm meant to be, and I'm having more fun than ever. Most people travel when they retire, so what would you do? I just...

I spend 100 days a year in Europe working on my guidebooks, working on my TV shows, and helping my tour program. It's like breathing straight oxygen. So I don't know what I... I'm out of balance. I'm just a hopeless case. I just love doing my work, and I'll do it as long as I'm physically able. It's a big turn-on for me. Perhaps the most astonishing thing I learned about you when I was doing this research was that you do not...

participate in any airline frequent flyer mile programs, which I thought has got to be the biggest loss of value for you. You must be a million miler many times over. I have no idea. But I'm in such a good mood when I go to the airport. I don't want to remember whatever you have to do to get your frequent flyer miles. Nothing, nothing. You just sign up for it. I don't even want to be...

I don't even want to think about it. It's like, it's a gimmick to get me to have loyalty to this airline instead of that airline. And it pollutes my whole, I don't, I can't explain it. So I don't defend it very well. But one of my- As a frugal traveler, I will say, I think you're missing out on some opportunities. We've got to wrap up though, but this has been really great. There are people who have built their careers on getting miles. Yeah, the points guy, you know? The points guy. Yeah, but I'm the no points guy. So many points. The points guy would be pulling his hair. What are you doing, Rick? I'm

I'm the travel guy. All right. Thanks, everybody, so much. It's been great. Thank you. Thank you. That's all for today, Sunday, June 29th. The Journal is a co-production of Spotify and The Wall Street Journal. If you like our show, follow us on Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. We're out every weekday afternoon. Thanks for listening. See you tomorrow.