E941 – Going Deeper with Jen and Zac Affleck
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Jen and Zach, welcome to the Vile Files. Thank you for having us. Thanks for having us. Well, welcome back, Jen. Yeah, welcome back, Jen. I'm back, guys! Welcome, Zach. How are you? Finally made it. Stoked to be here. Okay, we're very stoked to have you. So, I'm all about upfront expectations, kind of like set the stage of what we can expect this interview. Watching season two, obviously, you didn't finish season two. Yes. But...

I was really taken back by your relationship and specifically you, Zach. And so I was really just kind of fascinated with the relationship. You guys have been through a lot as a family, both you two with the show and the relationships with the women, your extended families. There's a lot there. So I would love to focus a lot of this conversation and just kind of getting to know you two as people and your relationship

I want to talk about, Zach, your growth, or at least what I perceive to be some growth on your part. And then we'll get into the show a little bit. I've really been kind of fascinated by you guys, if that's okay, if that's how it sounds good with you guys. In fact, I think we would...

Love that even more because I feel like not a lot of people know who we actually are. And everyone just likes to talk about like Chippendales and, you know, the craziness. Ben Affleck and Chippendales, the two things that like follow us no matter what. Yes. So we actually. Well, we'll ask you now. But like, but yeah, I mean, you're right. Because to that end, you know, what I really love about Chippendales

this particular show going deeper is the ability to get more of the context to, to dive deeper, you know, into these relationships and you guys as characters, it's like a blessing and a curse. This show is, I don't know how you feel about it, Zach, but I, it's my favorite show on TV. I'm warming up to it. You women give so much, uh, of your lives. You're, you're, you're so vulnerable. I,

I think, you know, as fans of reality TV, and I say this as someone who's been on it before, you know, it's and we do we we we go on the show, especially our reality recap episodes, and we watch these shows and we snark and we we criticize and we make fun. And that's kind of part of the gig. You know, it's like I'm a sports fan, too, right? Like part of being a sports fan is short for fanatic. So we watch this stuff so that we can talk about it with our friends and break it down and

and talk shit and get into it. But when it comes to reality TV, you know, I think we sometimes forget about the people who are behind the cameras and, you know, certainly there's an edit and things like that, but the blessing, what we get to do here in the Vow Files and going deeper is the opportunity to get to know the people and understand, you know, a little more context about what we are watching on these shows. And so I thank you guys for coming and showing up because clearly you guys have been a couple that's been highly scrutinized and the first couple

two seasons and clearly it's been a lot. So I first would like to start with just Jen, like how are you doing mentally? You had to leave season two. I don't know where we are in terms of coming back and I imagine you probably can't answer that anyway, so I'm not going to press you. But as we sit here today, how is your mental health and how are you doing with your pregnancy? Yeah, I'm doing way better now.

Physically, I'm not the best right now because I am in the third trimester and the third trimester is rough. But...

Yeah, no, season two, season one and season two was really hard on me. And yeah, like we, we watched season one and immediately started filming season two right after. So what you see in season two is basically just like what was actually happening. And, um, it was just a lot to navigate. It's not every day that your relationship gets exposed to the whole world. And yeah, uh,

I'm like, I don't even know where to start. Just how you're doing right now. I'm like, yeah, well, right now I'm doing great. Let me tell you. Six months ago, I was not, I was not doing okay, but through therapy and taking time for myself and, and,

uh focusing on my mental health i'm in a way better place now so how did you guys decide as a couple um and what ultimately led to the decision for you guys to take a leave of absence i don't know if that's what it's called from the show but basically leave the show and at least at least for the time being put a pause on your being a part of mom talk in mormon lives um yeah it kind of uh

I feel like starting season two, I was already dealing with a lot and I kind of just showed up just wanting to be vulnerable and sharing the truth because I

That's the whole reason why I started or wanted to be on reality TV in the first place was I want to be vulnerable. I wanted to do the hard thing in sharing my story. Obviously, I didn't expect season one to turn out the way that it did. But I have always been that way. I've always wanted to do the scary thing. And coming back was the scary thing. And

Unfortunately, it didn't end well. We were going through a lot. And then you see in season two that I find out that I'm pregnant and it just became too much. And sometimes like that happens in life. And for me, I...

It was kind of like the last straw. And I feel like I spent a lot of time suffering, but not really vocalizing that. And it got to a point where it was just too much. And I said...

you know what, I think I need to take a step back. And the, if it wasn't for the pregnancy, I don't think I would have done that because at that point it no longer just became about me. It became about this baby and protecting this baby. And so I really needed to do that. And yeah,

Yeah, I learned so much. This has been the most impactful pregnancy journey that I've experienced and I'm grateful how everything turned out. It's obviously going to be really hard watching back season two. We still haven't watched it, but there's just so much to learn and I feel like my purpose in life is just learning from all experiences you can learn in life and through

Through that, I hope to progress as a better version of myself. And I obviously have made a lot of mistakes. I think we all have. But I think that's just part of the journey. What was the hardest part about ending season one, going straight into season two? Was it everything that had happened in Vegas? Was it all of the women's kind of reaction to what had happened and them, you know, kind of giving their opinions on your relationship or...

Or at that point, had you even heard the public's opinion on your marriage? I think it was both. I think we went through a lot after Vegas. And yeah, it was really hard having the whole world know.

to vocalize their opinions. And I think there was a lot of truth that came out after Vegas that I think we both didn't realize was happening in our relationship because of what was traditionally taught to us. And it made us take a step back and kind of look in the mirror. And anyone who's gone through issues in their marriage, it's not easy. Like when you go through a hard patch and

And there can be a lot of factors. But in this case, it wasn't just like, oh, we're going to marriage counseling. It was like it was so much more magnified because our whole life had been exposed. And so...

Yeah, maybe you can. Yeah. I feel like you've done a lot of PR training. You've got really good answers to all of this stuff. What? I don't. I'm just going to speak my truth and my reality and probably be a little bit more just straight up about what we went through. We went through hell, to be honest. Season one had a lot of ups and downs. And unfortunately...

just kind of how it worked out was it only showed a lot of the negative and not to say that there wasn't a lot of things that needed to change in our marriage, but unfortunately you didn't get to see some of the other awesome sides of our marriage.

And so I was in the middle of medical school and season one comes out and there was so many emotions. We have, I had family and friends reaching out to me being like, why are you married to her? You should leave her. She has the whole world saying, why are you married to this crazy narcissist? You should leave him. We're just trying to tune out the noise and fight for our family and be like, we know why we got married in the first place. Trying to like get back to those things. We have these two beautiful kids that we want to fight for. Uh,

obviously two healthy houses are better than one toxic one, but like we knew that we could work through this. And so I just made the decision that like,

And I was telling Nick this the other day that just I decided to step away from medical school. Like there was no way I was going to do medical school and support Jen in her career. And so I decided I'm going to step away from this and I'm going to fight for my family. I'm going to fight for my wife and try to make the changes I need to to be the person that she deserves. And that took a lot of therapy, a lot of ups and downs. And we're not perfect. Like to be completely transparent with you.

We got in a huge fight last night because we're married and that happens sometimes. I think the differences we now have

some skills and the ability to communicate in a different way and just the way we navigate that and we're more of a team now but yeah we were going through a ton season one and there was a lot that led up to Vegas that was never shown there's a lot of resentment on my end and a lot of miscommunication on Jen's end and it just kind of led to this massive explosion which was unfortunately the biggest fight in our marriage and I'm embarrassed for how I acted but it is what it is and like

we just have to keep moving forward and, and fighting for each other each day. And you'll also see that in season two, like you'll see like my imperfections. Cause right. Well, like I wasn't, I thought like after Vegas, like, Oh, I'm perfect. Like he's the one with issues. And it wasn't until like after season two and going to therapy where I was like, Oh, I've got issues too. I've, I've got flaws that I need to work on too. And that,

I want to unpack all of this, but I do want to rewind a little bit and just kind of like start at the beginning and like, how did you guys meet for one? I'd love to hear that quick story. And then I would love to know how you guys decided as a couple to be a part of MomTalk and specifically Secret Lives of Mormon Wives, because I see the draw for you and the MomTalk community and all the influencers, but you seem like the perception is you're

You were never on board. You seem incredibly uncomfortable with this whole thing. And I'm just wondering, as a couple, how did you even agree in the first place to be a part of it? But first, how did y'all meet? Yeah. You're better at it. Okay. He's better at sharing. So there is a Mormon dating app called Mutual. It's kind of like Tinder, but it's just for Mormons. And I was moving after my freshman year of college. I'd just gotten back from my LDS mission to the Dominican Republic.

And he was like, where the Latina's at? Yeah, I kind of got the Latina fever and was like looking for someone spicy. But anyways, I was on that app and I was the first person that showed up on Jen's app. She like swiped up or whatever and I sent her a message and we actually met the night before I moved to Hawaii.

And it was kind of a crazy story. I met her, didn't think much. Well, I actually texted her a few times and said, hey, can we go on a date? And like she ignored me. But I was like, this girl is super pretty. Like I'm going to shoot my shot again. Yeah, I was like, I was like, you're about to move to Hawaii and you want to hang out? Like, why else would you want to hang out?

I was like, no, thanks. But she finally agreed to go on a date the night before I left to Hawaii. And so we went and we talked. And this sounds like cheesy or corny to say, but it literally was the most significant night of my life. And I went home that night and I told my mom, I'm like, I just met my future wife. And she's like, you're sleep deprived. You're crazy. You're moving to Hawaii. You don't know what you're talking about. And I was like, I went and told my buddies at the airport, I just met my future wife. And they're like,

dude you're crazy like what are you talking about anyways I moved out to Hawaii and just for fun for the summer to go surf with buddies yeah we worked in a shop out there and just yeah love surfing but anyways while I was out there um the rule that I had with my buddies is that we weren't gonna date like we weren't gonna let like girls ruin the summer but I just I don't know I couldn't stop thinking about Jen so after like two weeks I was like do you want to come out here she ended up coming out and we spent a bunch of time together and then yeah we ended up

dating and then Jen was going to go on an LDS mission after that and she decided to not turn in her papers. She kind of gave me an ultimatum. I decided to go on a reality TV show instead. That was years later. Just kidding. Back then she was going to go on a mission and she said, I'm not going to go on a mission and

I think we should get married. So I started saving up my money. I actually took a loan from my dad and bought a ring and proposed and we got married like 10 months later. How long were you dating for before you got engaged? Eight months. Eight months. And then got married nine months after that. Which is actually a long time within. Most of my buddies were like three months. I guess side conversation. I didn't, maybe it's my ignorance, but I thought missions for LDS was,

primarily for young men, is that, but I didn't realize women also go on missions or is it different than the missions you go on? - No, it's 18 months, so it's six months shorter. It is primarily for men, but women can go. Like Whitney on the show, she went on a mission

I'd say like 20, 25% of women. Is that relatively new for the church? Like, is it? No, like my mom, my mom went on a mission. Yeah. That's been going on for a long time. Yeah. When mom talk opportunity comes. Oh yeah. How do we decide as a couple to do this show?

Oh, I was all in. My manager told me about it. She's like, it was also it was right after Taylor went to jail and my manager called me and she's like, hey, they're like recasting for this like Mormon wife show. Like, would you want to do it? And at first I was hesitant, of course, because.

that had happened with Taylor. I didn't know anyone from MomTalk and I was just kind of like, oh, like, I don't really know what this is about. And at that point, I was very at a stage in my life that I was trying to keep up with an image. I was trying to keep up with an image on my social media. And that's a big thing in the Mormon culture. Like, I do think there's this pressure to look perfect, be perfect. And I was just kind of like, oh,

I don't know if like that would look good for my brand. Genuinely, I was thinking that like, I don't know like what they're trying to do. And then they told me it would be called Secret Lives of Mormon Wives. I was like, oh, like they're there. And this was after the Mormon swinging. So, of course, I'm like, they're probably going to want to make that about that. But I before deciding I had done the casting interview and they basically told me I got it.

And I was still hesitant. But then I met up with the girls for the first time and I was like, wait, I love this group. Like, I love these girls. And yeah, the rest is history. And I kind of went in with just being like, you know what? Like, I do think just to be completely honest, like being married to Zach, I did feel like I wanted to keep up with protecting our image together.

Honestly, for like your family, he comes from like a very wealthy family who are pretty known within like your community. And like I did worry about like disappointing his family. And so there is that worry. But also like I've naturally always been vulnerable and I've always wanted to share my story so that I went in with that.

that mindset. And that still is my mindset. I, I just want to share my story. And even if that means I'm showing the ugly, like, uh, then what about you, Zach? How did you feel about her? It was the, as I'm for the show, I feel like it's been like,

step by step, I've been able to be more and more vulnerable and like open to this experience and like what we're doing. I never wanted any of this and I never planned on any of this, to be honest. But kind of what happened is Jen came to me and she said, hey, there's going to be this reality TV show. It's going to be called Mom Talk. I'm like, oh, that sounds kind of fun. Like, what's it about? Then a few months later, they're like, oh, it's going to be called Secret Lives of Mormon Wives. I'm like,

Heck no. No way I'm doing that. Like, that sounds... No, he didn't say heck no. He said, hell no. He said, I'm out. Well, I don't think I was swearing at that point. Shut up. But yeah, and then I heard like Taylor was going to be on it. And I actually love Taylor and Dakota. But like at the time I was being judgmental. I'm like, oh, I don't want to be on a show with those guys. Like, that sounds crazy. And then honestly, like the day before...

contracts were due, Jen's manager reached out and was like, hey, we got to get contracts signed. I'm like, I don't really want to do this. Can Jen just do it and I'll just not be part of this? This just doesn't seem like me and something I'd want to do. And Jen just came to me and she's like, this is something I really want to do and this is important to me. I'm supporting you in medical school and these things that you want to do. Will you support me in this? And so then once we made that decision as a team that we were going to do it, we really did go all in season one and we were so vulnerable and we shared everything about our

religion and our life and our marriage and just all these different things. And I honestly think we kind of went a little bit naive into the show, just not really knowing what to expect or what reality TV even is. Clearly. You get to episode seven and I'm like,

In Vegas. I'm like, what? What's going on here? But yeah. And then same thing after season one, I was just like, oh, I don't I don't want to do a season two. And Jen was like, I really want to do a season two. Like, this is what I want to do. And I'm well, I love you. So I guess, yeah, let's do a season two. Just as an aside, was it an option for you to do the show by yourself or was the show planned?

hey, we only want couples and it's either the two of you or none of you. No, it was definitely an option for me to do it by myself. But I... Well, I don't...

I think it could have been, but I think they were really interested in the dynamic of these Mormon wives with their husbands. And to be honest, the first season, there's a couple other couples that were somewhat active, but really Jen and I were the most active, strongest in the church at the time. And so I think they were really intrigued of that dynamic between like... When we both came from completely different families and we're just completely different all around. And so that, yeah, they love that contrast between us. And clearly that's still...

Yes, I think they were super interested in seeing how we were both raised, how we ended up coming together and just the dynamic of our relationship. I want to unpack season one a little bit with the two of you, because if Whitney was going

villain number one, you were definitely villain number two. Here's the crazy thing. Right before the show came out, they asked all the girls who the villain is going to be. No one said my name. Like, you know, we, yeah, we didn't even really know what to expect, but I think I was maybe villain number one. I'm sure you felt that. I felt, I felt that way. So, well, either way you were, you were not liked. Yeah.

I certainly know the feeling. So, you know, you're not alone in that. But, you know, just to be totally honest, you know, what I do love about this show is that, you know, again, it really gets into the weeds about relationships. It really, it unpacks a lot of very relatable issues that married couples have to deal with, whether it's religious trauma, whether it's just one person in the relationship wanting one thing and the other person not, like whether you want to go on the show or not. But there were some moments

things on season one that just, it was hard to watch in terms of you came across as a husband who seemed to only think of his own needs, you know, whether it was medical school, whether it was your gambling problem, it gave a lot of toxic masculinity, you know, if you will. And so for one, I'd love to just hear from your point of view, what you felt was

maybe not fairly portrayed or accurate, but then I'd like to get into what you felt was accurate. And then I'd love to maybe unpack what changes you guys have made as a couple and more specifically you as a husband and man. Yeah, there's a lot to unpack. I feel like, and that's what's so hard about this is there is things that were true that were portrayed some like toxic tendencies that I had and

not to blame anyone else. Like I was raised a certain way. The cult, the church has a certain culture. Um, and I had just always kind of seen things one way and it was hard for me to open up my mind to like our marriage looking different for me acting different. Could you elaborate on what? Yeah, I just, I think typically, um, and there's so many things I love about the church. One thing is it's like this idea of like the patriarchy or like, like the husband is like the head of the house is just kind of how, how the church is honestly. And,

And not to say there's not a lot of great relationships in the church, but there is also a lot of toxic ones. And I just kind of always seen it as like the man's the one who provides, he's the one who makes the money and the wife is the one who stays at home with the kids. And like, that's just kind of how it is. And so I think a lot of this was like hard for me. It was hard for me to kind of, yeah, see things in a different way. And I feel like there was a lot of times where

early on in our marriage and on the show season one where I was selfish and I did think of myself and it was kind of what was Zach's priorities and what did he want to do. And I think that's why season two leaving medical school and finally putting Jen in her career first has been so healing for our marriage is because it was the first time that I actually was thinking about her and kind of us more of a family than like what I wanted and what my plans were. As far as

There was also a lot of things on the show that were said that weren't true as far as me gambling away my medical school tuition. That never happened. What's the truth? I hadn't even been accepted to medical school when that season was filmed. There wasn't even a deposit to pay for school because I hadn't been accepted into a school yet. A lot of those things that were said by the girls were hurtful and untrue and has led to a lot of backlash on social media, which has been really sad and hurtful.

Was there a savings or a nest egg or a fund that was allocated for medical school that you gambled away? If the women hear this and they hear you go, well, I wasn't even applied to medical school, could they be like, whoa, that's a good mentality? No, no, that is one thing that to this day really hurts me because that is absolutely untrue. I was gambling at the time. I do...

I did love to gamble. And to be honest with you, I sometimes still gamble with buddies. And that's something that Jen and I have worked through. And the way I go about it and the way we talk about it is a lot different now. And part of healing a lot of. Yeah, I'm just more respectful. Like I like betting on sports and occasionally I will still bet on sports. And Jen's very aware of that. And that's just something that we're doing in our marriage. And

Like, I'm not afraid to talk about that. But I think what was happening at the time is there was just a lot of miscommunication. As far as the whole medical school thing, it also got portrayed on the show that Jen was paying for my medical school, which is, it's also not true. But it was my plan. I mean, I had had a conversation with your parents and said, I would like to pay for med school. I mean, I don't want to argue with that. The reality is, is my dad had saved up a bunch of money. My dad's a doctor as well, and he had saved up money. So if I ever did decide to go to medical school, that was like his plan.

giving back to me is he wanted to help pay for that. And so he had saved that money aside and

And once I did get accepted to medical school, he directly paid that to the school. That was never money I ever saw or touched. That was directly from him to the school. And yeah. And then once I withdrew from medical school, that wasn't money I got to keep. That's my dad's money. And I don't you know, he's going to do whatever he wants with that. But that was like something he was doing for his son. So, yeah. What was his reaction to you dropping out of med school? Sure.

surprisingly he was he was really positive and supportive I think he saw how dark like in how sad I was and like the dark place I got to and

And I think all he wanted was for Jen and I to be able to work through our marriage. And like that comes first. And so I think he was sad because he's like, what are you going to do with your life? Like they've always been so supportive of it. But like he said a comment to me the other day that was like, I don't care what you do. I don't care if you're a park ranger. I just want you to be, I just want you to be happy. Like just do something that's going to make you happy. And so I think,

They've made a lot of progress in the last couple months and just seeing us finally be happy again and see like me be happy because I was in a really dark place for a while. I think they're finally just happy to see us doing good. Yeah. So. Jen, did you ever feel like.

Zach's parents ever like blamed you for the show and like the reaction of the fans? Yes, I definitely would say that. But I do feel like I could have navigated season one better for sure. And I could have been better at communicating. And obviously you see in season two that there is lack of communication. And I do think I was a

living in fear a lot of the time but it was such a hard place to be in after season one because part of me felt this guilt for putting my relationship on the show and like exposing that and being the one to like push for that and

But at the same time, I was like, wait a second. Like, I'm not responsible for how Zach acted and his actions. So there is a lot of just like guilt and me feeling like, oh, I did play a huge part in this. And then part of me was like, no, actually, like, I'm not responsible for this. And like, your son is responsible for this. And I do feel like I was blamed based off of some comments that were made from like,

what's shown on social media, everybody has seen it. And yeah, I know I was definitely blamed, but I definitely think that everyone has learned from this situation. And I'm so grateful because I also feel like his family has been able to take a step back and also see like everything. Just, I mean, again, being like fully transparent, I think what was really hard about season one was I think my family was disappointed

defensive of me not even necessarily my parents it was more like siblings and cousins and people who like actually know me who I think they saw like yeah Zach made a huge mistake but they also have seen me my whole life and they're like yeah he's a good kid like he did he acted immature and like he did something really dumb but like that's not the full context of like who he is so they were defensive of me which made Jen feel unsupported and then on the flip side Jen's parents are the most loving supportive people ever and

So I think where most parents would be like, yeah, leave that loser. They were like,

Jen, Zach's an amazing person. They were calling me like they were crying with me. Like Jen's parents have been so amazing when it comes to this. And so I think that was really hard for Jen to be like, I think you're getting so much support from my parents when you were the one who messed up. Why can't I get the same? I think it was just a really tricky situation to navigate because what do my parents say? Hey, we want to congratulate you on this show where our son looks like an asshole because that's that's what I mean. That's how I acted. Yeah.

Yeah, it's been it's been hard and it's been tough to navigate. Like, I can imagine. Honestly, like, yeah, because we have our reality TV life, but then we have our real life relationships with our family and friends. And

that is really tough to navigate to be honest but for me at this point I'm kind of in a stage of like I'm doing what I want to do and I'm doing what I feel like is best for me and like I spent my whole life like I didn't have a lot of money growing up like I didn't get the same opportunities that a lot of like my friends did especially when moving to Utah during high school like I

I went from like literally living in the Bay Area, living in the hood to living in a like privileged area. And I saw all of my friends get all these opportunities. And I felt like, oh, because I don't come from like a privileged family, like I can't get the same opportunities. And I've been very defensive of all the opportunities I'm getting now because I'm like, you don't realize like my whole life I've been serving and giving. I was raised with foster kids. I shared my bedroom.

with kids my whole life. Like it's time for me to show up for me. And I've, I've put my foot down because I'm like, no, I do deserve this. And I think sometimes still feel like a lot of guilt because of like being on a reality TV show. Isn't easy exposing your life. Isn't easy. But at the same time, I'm like, sometimes you just feel called to something and you can't explain why. And people might,

might have their opinions and say that's right or wrong. For me, like I've always just followed my gut and intuition and like I want to do the hard thing. It's not easy being vulnerable as a Mormon and showing what actually happens sometimes in like Mormon relationships. And like I feel like we're doing it

the hard thing, but doing the right thing by exposing what actually happens. And hopefully people within the Mormon culture can look at our relationship and kind of like reflect on theirs and say like, hey, like I think we kind of struggle with that too. Or like maybe my husband has fed into the whole like patriarchy and isn't treating me right. Or like I want to be an example of that.

And people aren't going to like that, unfortunately. I have lost a lot of friends and I think respect because of that. And I don't care. Like I'm showing up. And I basically told him when I was in a place where I want to walk away from the relationship, like I'm doing this. This is what I feel right about. And you can come along with me.

You can support me in this or you can walk away. I was not opposed to divorce. I was truly doing what I felt was right. And because of that, I feel like our relationship has never been stronger because I have found my voice. And I'm still in the process of that. I'm still young, 25. I'm young. But for me, I have learned...

so much and yeah i think there's a lot to take from our relationship how different we are uh the dynamic of a relationship and yeah i think i mean we got married were you 19 or 20 was just turned 20 yeah so i mean we were 22 so like we had

Like we were super young. And so a lot of this has been like us growing up and like learning together, figuring out who we are. Like, it's not like we were 30 and had these stable jobs and like had really figured ourselves out. Like we're like children.

growing up together than also having children. Like we're about to have our third baby. So there's been a lot of learning and growing. And I think something Jen said that I'm really proud of her for is how she's found her voice and just decided like, this is who I am. This is who I want to be. And I think a lot of season one honestly was us compensating. Like because we were the Mormon couple on the show, we felt like we had to really push that.

and didn't really show up like who we really were. So then I think when like the gambling stuff came out and then like the controlling behavior on my end came out, like it was really hard because I know personally I was putting on a facade. I was trying to for the church be the certain person, but then there's also this other version of me that I am around my friends or around these other groups. And like, I think if anything, the show's taught us just to like,

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Forgive me if this is inaccurate, and I think you shared last time you were here a little bit about your background, but can you remind the audience a little bit more about your childhood? I was raised by my biological parents, but I was raised with foster kids. So my parents took in foster kids my whole life. From the time that I was three years old, I was sharing my bedroom. And basically, I love my parents so much. They...

My mom was a convert, so she was raised Catholic, was converted by the Mormon missionaries, moved down to BYU, met my dad. My dad was also raised with foster kids. My dad was raised in California. And my parents are just different members of the church. My mom still drinks coffee, occasionally drinks too. She doesn't follow all the rules. My parents have never been that way, but their focus growing up was really about being a good person.

serving others and making God and Jesus the focus. And basically when bringing in these foster kids, he wanted, my parents wanted to let these children know that, yeah, maybe your parents have forgotten you. Maybe they...

aren't here for you. Maybe they don't even love you, but guess what God does? And like, I want you to know that. So when you leave this house, like you have something to rely on if you don't feel that way.

that from maybe the next family or whatever. But my parents have always been a perfect example of that. And to be honest, that kind of is still is what is keeping me still with the church. I've had a lot of issues with the church since the show, and I've had kind of like a spiritual faith crisis. But what's kept me is that love. What's kept me is like that relationship with God, with Jesus, because I'm

I just saw how like it transformed these kids' lives and it transformed my life.

And I do think people get fixated on the whole like, why do you wear garments? Why do you do this? Why? Joseph Smith. Where are your garments, by the way? It's about the intention, baby. It's about being a good person. That's what it's about. But again, a lot of members do fixate on the things that aren't important. And for me, I always go back to the primary things that are important. And yeah, my mom growing up, like we didn't have

the like best relationship because of the language barrier so I was raised by this Hispanic mother but then I was also raised by this in some way traditional white Caucasian Mormon man so I was able to see so much I was able to see have so many different relationships with my foster siblings and

like I feel like I have really such a good perspective on the blessings of the church and the good that you can get from the church but I also have perspective of like what I don't want to teach my kids and what I want to leave and it's something I'm still just figuring out day by day but I feel like we've been able to teach each other like so much there's so much I can take from him and

And like, to be honest, my family, even though they're like the most Christlike loving, least judgmental people, they are very dysfunctional in their own way. I also was raised by parents who yelled at each other and screamed at each other. And in a lot of ways, maybe shouldn't have shown us that, but they showed me the real and the passion. And with that,

With that came like also toxic things. But then you've got like things that I've learned from you and like also like your grandparents and just like hard work and community as well. And there's just so much that we have learned from each other. So we were raised like very, very different. Like Jen's mom was baptized in Ecuador, moved here, came to BYU, met her dad. My parents grew up.

in probably the most Mormon community in the whole church in Bountiful, Utah. They knew each other since they were eight years old. Like both my grandparents were like

members in the church, like just so just very, very different. So when we came together, there was a lot of like learning for us both to do. But also like he's helped me find my voice because being raised with foster kids, I felt like I did get a lot of the short end of the stick growing up because my parents are so focused on like helping these kids. And I did feel in a lot of ways I was neglected. And because of that, I became somewhat of a people pleaser. And it's

And him and his family is an example of like speaking up for yourself and vocalizing your opinions. You know, his family is a very opinionated family. Now I'm feeling a little bit more comfortable, especially with reality TV.

sharing my opinion. So, I mean, there's just... That's one side, and I don't know how much you see of it season two, that they did Jen a disservice season one. Jen has this spicy side where she'll put me in my place, snap on me, and I'm like, no one sees... You should have seen her last night. Screaming at me. I'm like, there's a Latina side. I'm just kidding. It seems like you guys have done a lot of work in terms of mending...

your relationship trauma and hurt that maybe you two have caused each other. I'd love to like learn a little bit about what that work looks like and what specifically you guys have been doing to try to save your marriage. I can go down to the details. I think the biggest thing that we struggle with is communication and the way that we communicate when in the thick of it or when

there is an issue. I am there. I'm a withdrawer and he's a pursuer. And so I think that has been like the game changer for us, like kind of like perfecting that and how we go about conversations has been like,

Yeah. Yeah. I think just through therapy and through all the help we've gotten, we've learned a lot of different tools. I don't know if I'm like being too vulnerable or like what can or can't be shared, but like... You can share anything you want to share. Yeah. I'll just, I'll just be completely honest. You can't be too vulnerable. Like for, for example, so like when I...

get really worked up, I can really spiral. For example, like the Chippendales thing. I had, I didn't know what was going on. In my mind, it was a much worse, crazy scenario. Like I had been told these different things from other cast members. So I was expecting the absolute worst. And instead of like taking a deep breath and gathering the facts, I just started going crazy and saying things I didn't mean and doing things I didn't mean. And there's like a lot of things that our therapists have taught us of like, why do you react that way? But like one simple thing that like I do now is like,

Like I have like anxiety medication. And so like if I ever find myself in a place where like I'm like really frustrated with Jen, like last night we got in a big argument. I'm like, OK, I'm going to go take my medication. I'm going to go take 20 minutes by myself and I'm going to sit here and think about how I want to show up and who like how I want to talk to my wife. And then we're going to have this conversation like when I'm regulated versus like before it'd be like screaming and yelling and pointing fingers.

Which goes nowhere, which people saw season one. And then we've just done a lot of other things that I feel like in the Mormon church were kind of considered taboo. Like one day we decided to go to a spiritual healer and we took like a weed gummy together. And we just, yeah. Was it a weed gum? Yeah. Okay.

Oh, yeah. At THC. Oh, yeah. Yeah, we decided like, hey, like, maybe this will like help us open up. And like, right. I had never drank, smoked, done anything in my life. But this was right after season one came out. And I was in like, we were both in a really dark place. I'm like, we need to change things up. Like, weed was legal in Arizona where we were living. We were smoking weed. No, no, we weren't smoking weed. We were going crazy. But I'm like, yeah, let's take a gummy. And we went to the spiritual healer and like had this great experience. And then, well, yeah.

That was kind of a crazy experience to be honest. Also, we took like, since we were both so naive, we took like 10 times the dose you're actually supposed to take. And we were like in a different universe and didn't know where we were. And this spiritual healer, I was confessing all my life sins and like telling her how much I loved Jen. And yeah, I'm just here to tell you about your future. She's just like, I'm going to read your palm. I don't know. She looked mortified. I need to go to the hospital.

Yeah, Jen was like passed out. She called 911 on you. Jen asked to call 911. She thought she was dying. I literally thought I was dying. We later found out you can't overdose on weed. But anyway. A piece of advice that our therapist gave us that really works for us and it might work for the two of you is if we're arguing about something and we've been arguing about it for five minutes, it's like one of us kind of calls like a timeout and it's like we have to table this. And by one of us, she means.

It's always me. We have to table this and like, we'll circle back because we're just not getting anywhere right now. And it's not worth it. I think as men, we are, you know, that's the language you used, um, pursuer. I think men, you know, that inherent fix it mentality, you know, a little bit more of the logical brain, you know, it's just like, well, that makes no fucking sense. And I want to get to the bottom of it right now. Um, yes. Yes. Um,

Yeah, it is something that's really helped. But it's always accurate, right? Because the way our therapist described it is like, once you're arguing for five minutes, you're not arguing from a place of an emotionally regulated adult. You're arguing from the place of whatever child...

that's inside you, whatever trauma you're experiencing. And you're not trying to communicate, you're trying to win. You're not trying to be happy. You're trying to be right. And it usually takes that time out, which almost seems silly when, you know, when you're, when our therapist first described, it's like, really, really time out? Really? You want me to really? Okay. But it does, it works. You, you calm down and then you start

And like you said, you approach it from a place of coming together, of building back that connection. I mean, I remember, you know, it wasn't until my 40s I learned that lesson. So imagine all the relationships I've had and arguments I've had with past partners and girlfriends where I was like, man, that could have been really useful.

Um, you know, um, so yeah, it's, it's, it's nice to learn. We're familiar with the timeout and yeah, I think I am. I'm naturally competitive and I'm naturally like, I want to win the argument. And so like, yeah, again, last night I was, uh, uh,

He's like, and that's enough on being vulnerable. Well, hold on. I don't want to get that vulnerable. Yeah, to be honest, I mean, just a little bit more behind that. Sometimes I do feel like these women are amazing and they have so many opportunities, but sometimes it does feel like, or at least what I was feeling yesterday was like, hey, I just wish that like, we don't, you don't have to go to every dinner, like show up to everything. Like sometimes I just wish like our marriage was first and it wasn't getting put first and it was hurting my feelings. And sometimes

Yeah, so I got upset at Jen and she called the timeout on me and left. And then that's when... Anyways. I said, I don't have time for this. I'm pregnant. Yeah. So that's kind of what we thought about, which I also think is good to talk about. We're not trying to portray some perfect marriage by any means. That still happens and we're getting better at it each day. But yeah, timeout's been big for us. Jen, how did you feel before...

All of this stuff went public. All of the world kind of had a view into your marriage. How did you feel in your marriage before this reality TV show came about? I was really struggling for a while and I never actually fully vocalized that. But internally, I was for sure battling because I feel like the your toxic tendencies kind of came out the start of like

trying to get to med school because at that point there had kind of been a shift in the dynamic of our relationship. In the beginning of our relationship, he was the provider. I kind of was just at home chilling, not really doing anything. And I was just kind of like, whatever Zach does, summer cells, school, like I'm just tagging along. And I was like, kind of like chill with it. But I think I've always been pretty like ambitious in like my own way. And I definitely need my own thing.

So when I pushed him to go back to med school, kind of leave summer cells, I was kind of put in a place where like I was forced to like provide or at least I knew that like I need to find a way to provide because at that point I couldn't rely on him providing for us and I didn't want to be in debt. And then at the same time that we had committed to that and all those changes, I found out I was pregnant with my first baby.

And so that kind of just like put something in me that just like, I need to make this happen. I need to start providing and I need to give this baby the best life. So I started my videography career. It kind of turned into what it is now, social media, now reality TV. But I think that caused a lot of issues because as I became the provider, I kind of, and a mother, I kind of started to find my voice and

and I started to find my confidence. And I also started to gain somewhat control in our relationship. He was kind of the person just kind of like steering the wheel. And I kind of just came in and was like, okay, I actually think we should do it this way. And you know what? I'm the one paying for it. No, exactly. And I resisted it at first. Yes, and he really resisted it. And it really caused a lot of issues. And in the thick of that,

I got asked to be on a reality TV show. Zach, did it make you insecure that she was making money? Yeah, it still sometimes makes me insecure. Sometimes I'm at home on a random Tuesday as a stay-at-home dad. I'm at the trampoline park with my two kids and I'm like, what the hell am I doing with my life? I'm grateful that that's even a possibility. And I still think I want to figure out what I want to do. But back at that time, it was really hard because this dynamic had switched. Suddenly Jen's providing and

There was other things going on. I was in the middle of studying for the MCAT, trying to get into medical school. I was taking 21 credits to try to graduate from college. We had one and then a second baby back to back. Six months after she gave birth, she got pregnant again with her second baby. Y'all be fucking. Yeah. I got tricked in and out. She took out her IUD without telling me. But...

Yeah, that was stressful. So I was under a lot of stress. Oopsie.

Whoopsies. Whoopsies. Forgot to tell you. This was before therapy. I was like, this was before therapy. And then like our marriage wasn't perfect. Again, we were young. We didn't have the coping skills we have now. And again, like I would sometimes like one of the ways I would cope is I'd play online poker with my buddies at night. She hated that because she's providing like doing all this work for our family and our kids. I'm gone at school all day long. And then she's like, like, what the hell are you doing? So were you essentially gambling gins?

That's another part of the show that's... Jen at the time, this was when she was like doing videography and starting social media. At the time, I was still getting checks from like the summer sales. Do you guys know what summer sales is? No. Oh, they need to make a reality TV show about it. It's basically the super common thing in Utah. But every summer, kids go out from Utah to different states and they sell...

pest control or alarms door to door. And that sounds like, oh, how successful could it be? People make hundreds of thousands of dollars in a summer. Like I have buddies who are millionaires just selling pest control door to door. So that's what I was doing to provide for our family early on. I'd go to school and then in the summer I would go. Why don't you just do that? We probably should have it. He's like...

like great idea because I'm bringing in the dough yeah no sales is sales yeah sales is sales no I think because I really wanted to pursue going to medical school and like I wasn't fulfilled in that so yeah we stepped away from that but so it was your summer sales money not yeah and then we had made some investments we had bought a home we had remodeled the home which we ended up selling yeah

We had some leftover money, but for the most part at that point, it felt like he was gambling my money because I was the provider at that point. Well, at this point you're married, so it's a bit of a gray area, right? For sure. There's a lot of gray area. In modern times, there's...

No, I mean, it's like, is it our money? Is it your money? It's just like, like, you know, whether it's my money or you earned it whenever and you think you're spending yours, but you know, when you're married, there's, there's the expectation that you're, you will be communicating, I guess, essentially all expenses. I mean, Natalie makes her own money, right? And she's allowed to do what she wants, but like every once in a while I'll be like, oh, that's a new purse. That's wow. Where'd that show up?

from, huh, cool. Literally since I was a kid. I've had this forever. It's an antique. This is a gap. You know, it's, especially when, when, when both people in the relationship make their own money and you also want to maintain a little bit of independence, even in a marriage. And I know we do, right. You know, but I'm guessing, correct me if I'm wrong, you know,

you know, for us, it's just, it's more about just like making sure we're on the same page, you know, she doesn't need my permission, nor do I need her permission to like spend money, but it's just, we just want to make sure that we're, we're doing more things together than, than apart, you know? And regardless of whose money it was, I am assuming, correct me if I'm wrong, when it comes to gambling, we are aware of just how dangerous it can be. I, I'm

I'm assuming you are aware of that. And there's all these stories about people ruining their lives. It is an addiction. And so...

Yeah, I'm guessing that's kind of maybe where those feelings came from. Oh, yeah. I think another thing was early on in our marriage because I was the one providing. And again, I had this framework of my head of how things worked. I can do whatever the hell I want. No, not necessarily that. But it was kind of like I was the one making the money. So I was kind of like I was controlling it. I wasn't giving Jen that freedom that she wanted. And so suddenly when she was making all this money, she's like, well...

I've got the freedom now. I'm going to do what I want. And so that's taken us time. It was a punch to my ego and it's taken us time to figure out how are we going to navigate our finances? How are we going to do this? How are we going to do that? And yeah, I think it's just part of figuring it out. Yeah, but also with the gambling, that's something that we openly talk about a ton. And I do feel like...

Being raised in the Mormon church, there is a lot of shame and guilt around a lot of stuff. And I feel like with boundaries and communication, it's become more of a healing thing for us. And it has been toxic. We're going back to toxic things. It's more just like, hey, if we can stick to this budget, if we can stick to this, we're a team. You want to spend this amount of money with...

betting on a sports game, well, I'm going to spend this amount of money on a bag. Like, we just see it that way. Obviously, if it went too far and like he wasn't being honest, we would have to set that boundary and say, this isn't working. We tried to make it work. Let's not do it. We haven't gotten to that point. It's been a very perfect way for us to bond and also not...

put so much shame. When you say bond, what do you mean? I know that sounds crazy to say like, oh, you're bonding over gambling, but I think where it caused us a lot of pain early on was

I'd kind of do it when I wanted with my buddies a lot of my buddies sports bet and I'd kind of just like do it with them and not always like there wasn't full transparency where now it's kind of like hey babe like the Lakers are playing tonight like I'm gonna bet 200 bucks on that are you cool and she'll like we'll like watch the game together sure and it will be like an exciting thing and then it's you know then it's not like I'm doing this behind her back I'm

I feel guilty.

Yeah, exactly. And just agreeing because like that is a marriage. Has there been a moment where you've said, no, maybe not tonight? Oh, yeah, absolutely. Yeah. I mean, well, after Vegas, I didn't go into a casino or I didn't gamble for like nine months because there was a lot of trauma that needed to be healed behind that. And I was trying to be sensitive to Jen and like the hurt that I had caused her.

But finally, through therapy, we got to a point where like our therapist was like, Zach, what are things like you love to do? It seems like you're not doing a lot of the things you love anymore. Like you're not going on surfing trips. You're not like gambling with your buddies. I'm like, yeah, I kind of do love those things. But like, I'm trying not to do them for my wife. And she's like, no, you need to find healthy, positive ways to do these things. And so that's when we started talking. And literally a conversation with our therapist was like,

hey, Zach wants to occasionally sports bet with his buddies. Jen, how do you feel about that? Well, I don't feel good about it because of X, Y, and Z. And then we got to a place where we're like, okay, that's a good compromise. This is how we can make it work. And there is nights where she's like,

yeah, like I don't want you to do that. Yeah. Obviously your relationship has been under scrutiny. We only see what the editors put in the show. So can you kind of give us some things you really love about each other? Like what is something that Zach does? What are parts of your relationship that you just cherish and love and that you're grateful for? Yeah, there's so many things I love about Zach. First off, he's good looking. Yeah.

Love that. No, there's so many things. I love that how much of a hard worker he is, even though he's taken on the role of being a stay-at-home dad. I've always loved. It's hard as shit. Yes, it is hard. It's way hard.

harder. It's harder than med school, to be honest. Credits to all the stay-at-home moms and stay-at-home dads. It's not easy. I love that he's just so hardworking and anything he's ever set his mind to, he's always been able to do that and go 100%. So, you know, when he wanted to marry me and that was a goal, he went 100% and made that happen. When I was walking away from our marriage and he decided this is what I wanted,

He walked away from med school and said, I'm going 100% at it. I'm doing it. He's always been really, really good at that and whatever he wants in his life. And I love that about him. Um,

Because it motivates me and like my intentions and things that I want in life. I love that he's smart and intelligent. I love, I mean, the world hasn't been able to see the other parts of Zach, but he really does have a big, big heart and he cares.

a lot. And he's an amazing father. He cares about me. He cares about his children. And he is always thinking about his children. We wouldn't have our doctor's appointment set up and all the things, you know, if it wasn't for him, I'm all over the place. Like ADHD, he's always like, hey, like, are they getting the nutrients that they need? Are they doing this? Like, he really is just so good at that. He's a great friend. He's loyal. He is

so loyal. We've got the golden retriever. I would say I'm the golden retriever. He's like the shepherd. He protects and he's loyal and he's hardworking. That is Zach to his core. And yes, he is very opinionated. I love that about him though. He's not fake about it. He's going to say how it is. He's straight up. I have a tendency to be a people pleaser and not really vocalize, but he motivates me and

and brings out that side in me of this is what I want and this is how I'm going to get it. Yeah, there's... I could go on all day. I could go on. I love these podcasts. We should do these more often. I could also go on and on, but I would say...

The two things that stick out to me the most about Jen is first, I feel like she's the only person I've ever been able to fully be myself around. And she brings out this different side in me and just makes me feel, I don't know, like anyone who knows Jen can just see this light and she's always fun to be around. She always is like, it's just exciting. She makes life fun and I can be really serious and she can kind of help me calm down and just enjoy life. And then the other thing is,

which I've really felt in the last like six months is Jen is really good at showing unconditional love. And she had a lot of reasons to walk away from our marriage to, um, yeah, like, um,

Don't fight it. Shows you're human. Yeah. She has just shown me a lot of unconditional love when maybe I didn't deserve it or maybe she had a lot of reason to, again, walk away or just feel a certain way. And she's stuck by me and worked through a lot of really hard times. And I'm super grateful for that. And then the last thing I just say is she's a great mother. And yeah, there's no one else I'd rather see be the mother of my children. No.

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O-G-I-C-A dot com. Use code V-I-A-L-L for an exclusive free gift with $65 purchase. Zach, I'd love for you to just think back about going into season one and then think about where you're at now, you know, with all the work you two as a couple. And I'd love to know what you think your role as a husband is today versus what you thought your role as a husband is prior to

all the work you guys have done as a couple? Yeah, that's a great question. I think going into season one, I had this idea of, again, the man was like the patriarch of the family. Like I was in, like I was supposed to like make the decisions for us. I was supposed to provide for us. I was supposed to,

like protect kind of just all those like traditional roles that a lot of males, especially in the church kind of take on. And I'm still figuring out what my roles are now. Like I said, like being a stay at home dad was kind of never my plan. I think my role now, at least what I'm embracing right now is just supporting Jen and like kind of helping her shine and just like

being okay that like there's a lot that goes behind on behind the scenes of taking care of random things of kids of things that people are never going to see and like that's contributing to our relationship and it's allowing Jen to have these opportunities that she honestly deserves and just

Just supporting her, just being able to like be there and enjoy that she's getting to do all these like really cool things that she always dreamed of because this really was Jen's dream. Like she wanted to do something like this. And so, yeah, supporting her in those things and then just enjoying being a dad, like being a dad is.

like the coolest thing ever. And like, you get to like create like these mini me's and like, just like each of them, all these fun things and go do all these fun things all the time. And so, yeah, I feel like that's kind of the role I'm playing right now. It's awesome. Yeah. Do you feel like, you know, and thanks for answering that question. Cause like as a fan of reality TV, it's, you know, it's, it's, I think it's enjoyed by everyone, but it's, it's, I think, you know, there's a little bit more women viewers than male viewers. And I think,

You know, I don't know if it's just the reality of men. You know, maybe there's some how men are portrayed on the show. But, you know, it is sometimes frustrating. Like, you know, like everyone else, I'm the furthest from a perfect person, have all my flaws, you know, and relationships outside of relationships. But, like, it is sometimes frustrating watching these shows where it seems like some of the men on these shows, like, have, like, just, like,

expect the bare minimum from themselves where it's just like you know i i sometimes when i talk about these shows i i feel like i'm coming from a place of like thinking i'm better than these guys but but like some of the guys it's just like what the fuck are you guys doing you know and it's but now that you've done some of this work do you see yourself wanting to be um a

a vehicle for change when it comes to other men in your community, your friends. Your wife mentioned how loyal you are and you seem like you have a good group of guy friends, but I have to assume that some of the men in your community or even some of the men who are also on the show are

have a lot of work to do themselves. And how do you plan on, you know, obviously you're going on your journey and I'm sure that's probably your primary focus right now, but do you see yourself wanting to be

an example of positive change and encouraging other men in your community to follow some of the work you've been doing? Yeah, I mean, I still feel like so when we first started therapy, I had this idea in my mind of like, OK, I'm going to do this for six months and then like I'm going to be good. And like I've now realized that's like not what it is. Like this is going to be an ongoing, continual thing for probably forever. But I do think there's a lot of great men in my life.

who I want to take things from them and apply them. And then there's things where I'm like, no, I don't want to be that kind of a husband. I don't want to be that kind of a man. And I'm trying to like make those changes and shift everything. As far as the men on the show, I actually think there's a lot of great husbands and a lot of like the learning I've done has been

been from them. Like specifically, I've had so many late night conversations with Connor, Whitney's husband. Like we spend a lot of time together. We go to the gym together, like off camera. He calls me all the time and I just talk through and he's helped me. I ask him like, how do you handle like some of these things? How do you go about it? And like, he's been like one of like my mentors. Also Connor's journey of him and everything he went through led him to

getting into EMDR and all these different things, which ultimately led us to doing EMDR and these different modalities of therapy of getting into ketamine therapy, which that was like completely life-changing for us.

And so I think when I've healed more and I'm ready, I would love to talk more about this and more of like mental health things that I went through that Jen went through and just kind of showing people that like so many people are quick on social media to be like divorce him, like divorce, divorce, divorce. But like you can fight for a marriage and it can work and you can make changes. And I hope that like, I'm not saying I'm perfect or completely changed, but that's what I'm trying to do. And I hope people can see that. Thanks for sharing all this. It's been great. I do want to talk a little bit about, see,

season two. It's been fun getting to know you and, you know, a lot of the women, especially season two, came at you for what they claimed was you being dishonest. You know, there's the whole Ben Affleck of it all and yada yada. And, you know, I said this to, I think, Jessie when she was here, but you seem more or less harmless, you know? Yeah.

You know, there's, I guess, not that any lying or, you know, embellishing is okay. But you mentioned people pleasing. It seems like sometimes your, your fibbing comes from a place of, of desiring acceptance. Oh, absolutely. And I don't want to go back to like the tough parts in your relationships, but there were obviously, and Zach has owned up to a lot of things he's done, but there were, you know, things that you said about your husband that, that,

maybe not all of it was even accurate, but like, what are, what are some things that maybe you got wrong when it came to how you talked about your husband? And also, do you feel like you were in the spirit of people pleasing? Do you feel like some of the other women were able to convince you that your husband was a certain way or did certain things that you agreed to or said that

ultimately wasn't true. I do agree with everything you just said. I do think I have a lot of people pleasing tendencies. I do think that a lot of the dishonesty that maybe you see in season two where I wasn't just straight up right up front came from me living in fear and not me. I've never really had for the most part like

any like ill intent. I think it's just a lot of things that I've had to even just work through in therapy with, yeah, trying to be accepted and having issues with that. I do feel like

everything I showed in season one was accurate to how I was feeling. I never saw Zach Foley as like this, like narcissist, but I did see a lot of narcissistic traits. And like, I did feel like through like my own

like her in reflection, like I did see him as that. And that was my truth at that time. And obviously we had never gone to therapy at that point. I'd never seen him put in that full effort. So at that time, like that, that was how I felt. And going into season two, I did live in that fear of like, will he actually make those changes? And like, I think a lot of people in marriages go through those stages of life where they're

They're like, will they change and will they do those things? And

In season two, you see a lot of that hurt. The hurt from season one in the past couple of years were kind of like bottled up in season two. And I was just living in like this hurt and honestly rage. I'd been quiet for so long. I'd been a people pleaser for so long that like there's a combination of rage, people pleasing, fear and change. Like I just...

was going through all of it. I want to change. But my old self was still coming out. But I'm still evolving into this new person and I'm calling people out. But am I being fully honest with myself? There is a lot of just like, what's going on? There's a lot to navigate. And I...

Maybe it seems like I had like maybe fed into like what the girls were saying that was never really the case I think I was already bottling up a lot of feelings and I never I mean there's a reason why I slated myself after season one is I truly was trying to figure out what was best for me and that's why I also isolated myself in season two and

With the whole like me being dishonest. I want to be clear. I don't mean to cut you off. But other than the Chippendale where it sounds like maybe you knew a little bit more than you let on and to me and Jesse like acknowledge that they said, hey, we're not going to tell you everything. And there's a little bit of back and forth. It was really more you being accused.

it wasn't clear that you were lying a lot. I want to be clear that it wasn't like a bunch of like, oh, Jen's lying all the time. Everyone's told me that I just look like the biggest liar in season two. You're being accused of it constantly by me, mostly. Jesse seems to like,

be her like partner in crime but it really seems to be Demi which would make sense that makes more sense now knowing what you guys know well I mean well I don't to be honest we're all kind of confused we have the opportunity to talk to Michaela Macy Jesse Layla yeah Miranda and Demi I think

I think it's kind of important just that we ask because everyone's kind of involved. Yeah. I'll just lay this out. Like this is my full truth and I don't know if it's shown at all in season two. But with the whole Chippendales thing, first off, I don't know what's shown in the show, but yeah, to be just fully transparent and saying this with my like literally like full honest truth is

I went and got my hair done at Jesse's salon and it was never supposed to be brought up. Nothing about them throwing a Chippendales party was supposed to be brought up. The only reason why Demi ended up bringing it up is because I told her about my ketamine experience and how we fully healed from Chippendales. And to be honest, I wasn't being fully honest with

them at that point being at the salon because I was trying to protect my marriage and I didn't know how season two was going to go. And so her hearing that she was like, well, then maybe I should show you, tell you about like this Chippendales party that I was going to throw. And so I was kind of

people pleasing with them at that moment and kind of just being a yes girl and saying whatever. But I didn't actually fully realize what I was saying yes to. And there wasn't also full transparency. Chippendales dancer was never brought up to me, me being seated like it was very much like

seemed very much like lighthearted. But at the same time, I also wasn't being fully honest with them and Zach because I had never vocalized even there being a strip show at Chippendales. And so that was kind of just like in passing. But I think what's confusing for me is like it would have never been brought up if I wasn't at the salon that day. So what was your intent there?

behind hosting that because you wouldn't have told me if I wasn't there and if I hadn't told you where we were at in our marriage, what would that have looked like? And then of course, like when we got there and Zach didn't know what was going on and then all of a sudden Chippendale's dancer was there, me being seated, I was just kind of like, I knew about this. I didn't know the extent of it. Now everyone's calling me a liar.

the Ben Affleck thing, I've always been fully honest about that. I've never made that up. That was never a lie. It was brought up. That's still something we're like trying to like figure out. Was that a joke? Did your grandpa get the wrong Ben Affleck? Like that was never something I ever lied about. But the only person that deserves an apology with that whole thing is Zach. And I have given that to him because I wasn't fully transparent with him and

And it's very interesting that she keeps coming out and calling me a liar and saying things that I made these things up. It really is her deflecting on the truth that happened after Vanderpump Villa. She knew that I was going to talk about it and she didn't want me to talk about it. Therefore, she used Chippendales and that whole Halloween party to make me

to make it seem like I was this big, biggest liar. So if I did bring it up, no one would believe me. And at that point, she was in a perfect place to do that because I was isolated from the group. So she could tell the whole group how she found, she could convince the whole group that this was happening, but that was just not the case at all. And I mean, you'll see later on that more receipts are shown, like more proof is shown and like,

It's just honestly her freaking out and her deflecting. We've asked all of the women, obviously. It's all over social media. What is your opinion on the Demi, Marciano, Jessie of it all? Yeah, my opinion on it is I think

Demi pushed boundaries in Vanderpump Villa. When you say pushed boundaries, boundaries in her marriage? Yes. And I called her out for it and she was very upset in Italy. She was like, how dare you tell me what my own boundaries are in my marriage? Like, how dare you? Like, this is like, I can do what I want. Kind of the same mentality of like,

what she brought in Vegas but it was almost what I mean you also called me though because I was back in Arizona in medical school and Jen called me and was like because I was asking her about how this trip was going and you called me and was like yeah Demi's just been crying in our room for the last hour she's so she feels so bad she feels like she's cheated on her husband yeah well why well because she was sitting on his lap she was kissing him all these things that were never shown in the edit

it's just, I don't even know how we're like still honestly debating the topic. Yeah. Well, I think partly it's just because it's obviously such a serious conversation and it's just like, I think what's, uh, what was hard for me was like, this has happened before. I've heard this from, um, other people, like when she, in her past marriages that this would happen. And so for me, like, I just kind of like,

told her like if you want to flirt with this guy or whatever like you can go do that like that's your boundary in your marriage like whatever but like I'm making it very clear that I don't want to be associated with that and I was worried at that point like are they going to edit it in a way that we're all flirting with these guys I want to make it very clear that like I'm just here to have a fun girls trip and I'm not like trying to like

You know, so at that moment, were you when you brought that up to me, were you trying to be like a good friend and hold her accountable and be like, hey, I don't know where your head is right now, but like this is what you're doing and maybe you should stop. And she didn't. Absolutely. Well, absolutely. And I think at that point she was just like maybe she had realized. But later after the trip, she ended up having a conversation with Brett and she was bawling on the phone and she was like.

I went too far. I should have gone to bed at 8 p.m. When you went to bed, Jen, like I think I may I may have pushed this too far. Will you guys please not tell anyone?

And at that point, I'll be straight up. She was never truly a true friend to me. She'd never been loyal to me. She exposed all of my text messages in Vegas for her own benefit and for her own storyline. It never felt like she was a true loyal friend to me. So at that point, I had my guard up and I own this. I told Michaela I'm not a loyal friend to her. So if she comes down

at me and my marriage again, season two, like I'm going to bring this up because it's not fair. It's not fair for you to keep pointing fingers at my marriage, make your whole storyline about how I'm in this toxic marriage, yada, yada, yada.

But then we don't talk about your marriage because we all know that there's things happening. Season two happened and I mentioned it in the scene with me, Zach, Demi and Jesse. I brought it up right after that scene. She ends up calling me and I have this voice recording. She calls me and she tries to coach me on what to say if they ask me about Vanderpump Villa. The story doesn't add up.

When you look at the receipts, when you look at what happened, it just doesn't add up. And then the whole time she's bullying my wife, she's making TikToks with her husband. She's trying to get the whole group to make Jen look like she's a liar. For what purpose? Because that fits her. She's honestly very manipulative. Also, yeah, it was frustrating because then right after Vanderpump Villa, she was inviting him.

To a dinner. Like I have voice recordings of her saying, I want him to come to dinner. And I said, I sent her who to come Marciano. I sent a voice recording back and I said, absolutely not. I will not be at that dinner. I do not want to be associated with that man. Like, like,

And when was that timeline? This is after the filming? This is right before season one came out. Right after filming Italy. And then she said, I want to invite him to the premiere. I think it would be a great time. And then I heard from the other girls, there was weird DMs that she was sending him. And she was FaceTiming him with mod. Just nothing, nothing added up. And then why are you coaching me on what to say with Vanderpump Villa and that thing?

To say that I was wrong for questioning her boundaries and her marriage. Yeah.

Nothing adds up. Everything keeps changing. Why are you getting a cease and desist and then saying, I never got a cease and desist? And then saying that I lied about that. I'm like, that literally happened. Well, no, it didn't happen. She didn't go through with that, but she tried to. She tried to get me to be quiet. What would be your purpose behind keeping me quiet? What's your reasoning behind that? And so for me, like,

She can call me. I think she says that you're spreading lies about her marriage and her reputation. I think she wanted to keep you quiet, but she claims that you're lying. Yes, which, okay. It's just hard when there's receipts to back it on one end and not the other. And then saying she was lying about the cease and desist. There's just so many things where it's just so hard to be like, you want to give grace because it's such a sensitive topic. It just, again, the story just doesn't add up.

Well, do you think we'll have an opportunity maybe in season three or at some point, you guys keep mentioning receipts. Will the audience get a chance to see some of these receipts? Yes. Hopefully. I mean, we never know. Well, if not, I'll be posting on my social media. Just kidding. I want to say again one more question just because I think it's very relatable. Yeah.

you found out you were pregnant in season two and obviously your initial reaction wasn't what a lot of women feel is that excitement. You felt that sphere. Natalie and I have been open about our own fertility struggles and obviously

I imagine that was a very complicated feeling that you had because I'm assuming you're, we're all told this is a blessing. This is amazing. You obviously have wonderful children already and you love being parents. How did you deal with that? Those complicated feelings of, of feeling that fear initially at a time where other times you, you think you're supposed to feel another way. Yeah. At that point I felt like a lot of guilt and,

And just, I felt guilty for not being proactive. And because I wasn't on birth control, like kind of putting ourselves in that situation because, you know, having a baby is like a big deal. I mean, you're responsible for a human being coming into this life. And so I don't think...

Like, I truly like think that I wasn't being responsible during that time. And I felt bad because at that point, I didn't know where our marriage was headed. I didn't know if we were headed to divorce or if we were going to fight. And so for me, I felt guilt just like bringing this baby into this life at such a vulnerable, hard time.

And for me, I was like, this is the last thing I need right now. And I can barely take care of myself. How am I supposed to take care of this baby and take care of my kids and do all these things and be a part of the show and fight for our marriage? Like, really, my head was like going into circles. But honestly, if it wasn't for finding out that I was pregnant, I don't think I would have prioritized my mental health as much as I did and prioritize getting help.

Because, yeah, again, at that point, it didn't no longer was about me. It was about this baby taking care of this baby, protecting this baby. And I mean, people tell you like how you go about your life, what you put in your, you know, like what you what you eat and like that.

Just pregnancy is a big deal. Everything, the way that you're living your life and how you're taking care of your body, it affects the baby. It affects the baby for the rest of their life. That's where my head was at. And I was really just worried. But of course, I truly feel like this baby is what saved me during that time. This baby gave me the strength to push through, ask for help.

get the therapy that I needed. And yeah, I, um, I'm grateful for that. And I, I can't wait to meet this baby and I can't wait to tell her, tell her or him, I think it's her, I don't know, when they're older that like they saved me during one of the hardest times in my life. And

you're truly like the biggest blessing and I can't wait to tell them all the things that I learned during those moments. So. Well, that was a very beautiful way to end. I can't thank you guys enough for joining us. And I think you guys have been a great example of how a marriage, like you said, can have its ups and downs and some pretty low

low lows. And if you want to choose to wake up and still choose each other, that there's a path forward if you guys want to do that. And Zach, I just want to say, you know, keep working on yourself. It's nice to see that growth for someone who

maybe once was the most hated man in America. I'm glad that you didn't quit on yourself and quit on your marriage and quit on your wife. And I challenge you to keep looking in the mirror and finding ways to grow and be a better man, because I do think the world, especially on TV, needs better examples of how men should be both to themselves, to their community and to their partners. So thanks for showing up today and just keep

keep doing what you guys are doing. Yeah. Thanks for having us on. Thanks for giving us a voice and letting us share more of our story. It means a lot. So yeah. Thank you. Thank you guys for listening. We'll see you back tomorrow.