Deep Dive
Shownotes Transcript
Dental One associates redefine what it means to visit the dentist. Get top-quality, personalized support from committed experts that prioritize the well-being and satisfaction of you and your family. Care is centered on a highly personalized treatment plan backed by the trust and support of long-lasting relationships. Find out how you can make an appointment for a custom smile design experience by visiting doa-seriousxm.com.
That's the sound of fried chicken with a spicy history. Thornton Prince was a ladies' man. To get revenge, his girlfriend hid spices in his fried chicken. He loved it so much, he opened Prince's Hot Chicken. This is one of many sounds in Tennessee with a story to tell. To hear them in person, plan your trip at tnvacation.com. Tennessee sounds perfect.
This episode is brought to you by Progressive, where drivers who save by switching save nearly $750 on average, plus auto customers qualify for an average of seven discounts. Quote now at Progressive.com to see if you could save. Progressive Casualty Insurance Company and Affiliates.
National average 12-month savings of $744 by new customers surveyed who saved with Progressive between June 2022 and May 2023. Potential savings will vary, discounts not available in all states and situations. This is episode 13, Similarity.
Of the hundreds of statements uttered in this case, there are two that have caused me to rack my brain every time I think about them. And both came from 16-year-old Patrick Skinner during the first 48 hours of the investigation. On July 9th, less than a day after John was found, Patrick told detectives that when he picked up John's revolver at the crime scene, he unloaded it and saw that there were six unfired rounds inside of the cylinder.
This gave him a little bit of comfort because he knew that the absence of an empty casing meant it hadn't been shot. Here's Patrick reiterating that in our recent interview. I pick it up and as a little .22 revolver, I remember pulling a pin and the whole cylinder falling out of it and, you know, putting them back together. Did bullets come out? They did. And that's part of my memory that I didn't think at the time it had been fired based on what fell out in my hand.
I still don't know that I ever heard from the detectives whether or not it was fired because I could have swore it had not been fired. So it was a six shot, so six unfired bullets should have fallen out if it wasn't fired. Five full bullets, one casing should have fallen out if it was fired. Right, and I don't remember seeing an empty casing.
It was only after Patrick found out that John had been shot that he realized six live rounds being in John's gun didn't make sense. But still, he was sure of what he saw. When Pat Strater was interviewed immediately following investigators' chat with Patrick, she also remarked that when her and Patrick found John's gun at the scene, they determined based on the rounds inside of it that it had not been fired.
Which was one of her reasons for taking it from the scene, because she thought the fact that it was still fully loaded meant it likely wasn't involved in John's death. Here's Pat during her July 9, 2003 interview with Detective Kim Lewis. I asked him to check to see if there's any evidence
If he could tell if there was an empty, if there's any empty casings in the gun as if it had been fired. Yes, yes. Because that was my concern. Yes. Okay. And what happened? He had to work with it to get it where he could. Okay. And he told me none had been fired. The second statement Patrick made that has always puzzled me came out during his second interview with investigators.
He told detectives that there may have been more than one gun like John's around. It was a short remark, but a statement that clearly suggested Patrick knew there was another .22 revolver at the Southeast Hansel property that looked a lot like John's. For some reason, though, investigators never asked Patrick to elaborate on what he meant by the remark. But I've looked into what he might have been referring to, and what I found is pretty jaw-dropping.
Thanks to a crop of public records that the Florida Department of Law Enforcement took seven months to turn around for me, I can say with certainty that there were two identical Ruger six-shot single-action revolvers present on the Strader property on the day John died. One was John's, and one belonged to his step-grandfather, Mel Sr., who died of a heart attack in June 2003.
For a long time in my investigation, I was forced to read between the lines of documents from DeSoto County Sheriff's Office that were heavily redacted. I'd seen several references made about a .22 revolver, but because there were so many chunks of text missing, it was hard to know who was talking about this gun, if they were saying it was John's or another firearm or what.
So many black lines on the pages made the information muddy and difficult to decipher. But then, FDLE fulfilled my request for Special Agent Jonathan Smith's reports from 2003. And bingo. Everything I needed to see was spelled out clear as crystal in those documents because they were unredacted. What I learned is that there were more than a dozen guns in storage inside the Strader home on July 8th.
one of which was a Ruger 22 six-shot revolver that had belonged to Mel Sr. There were also roughly 10 to 12 rifles and two or three shotguns in the house. According to a statement from Skip, all of those guns were kept in a safe in a hallway closet that John did not have access to. Matt, John's older brother, had a key to at least six locks that secured that safe, and Skip indicated he had a way in as well.
During his two interviews with law enforcement on July 18th and September 5th of 2003, Matt explained more about this safe and went into detail about Mel Sr.'s revolver. A report that details Matt's statements says, quote,
End quote.
Matt went on to explain to police that Mel Sr.'s Ruger was an older model than John's, and sometime in the four weeks between when Mel Sr. died but before John was killed, Matt had taken it upon himself to remove their grandfather's revolver from the top of the refrigerator and put it in the hallway safe. While transferring the gun, Matt said he checked the cylinder and found six unfired 17-caliber red-tipped Hornady bullets in it.
He told investigators he'd never seen those brand of bullets before, and as a precaution, took them out of the gun and put them in a drawer in the safe. But just let me stop right there for a second. Because when I compared the two statements Matt gave to police, I found a pretty big contradiction.
When Matt first spoke with FDLE and DeSoto County Sheriff's Office in July of '03, he stated that he knew his grandfather kept a box of 17-caliber red-tipped Hornaday ammunition. He specifically told investigators that those bullets had traditionally been stored in a glove box of the diesel truck that Mel drove when he was alive.
But in Matt's second statement, taken two months later, Matt stated he'd never seen those kinds of bullets before. So why did he go from admitting he knew about them and where they were stored to denying their existence altogether? The origin of where the 17 caliber undersized ammunition came from is something I wanted to pin down because Matt going back and forth about that specific detail seems odd.
I don't know for sure when those bullets came into the picture. For all I know, Mel Sr. could have bought them months before he died. But what I do know is that Matt saying he never knew about them during his second interview with police is just not true. Mack Wells knew his sons knew about those bullets. Those 17s, I think he might have gotten that from his grandfather might have had him in his truck, from what I remember.
Here's what's really strange, though: Pat Strader has a completely different story about where the red-tipped bullets came from, and where they were stored in the house right before John's death.
Do you want to set your child up for success? IXL Learning is an online learning program for kids covering math, language arts, science, and social studies. IXL is designed to help them really understand and master topics in a fun way. Powered by advanced algorithms, IXL gives the right help to each kid no matter the age or personality. IXL is used in 95 of the top 100 school districts in the U.S.
There's one site for all the kids in your home, pre-K to 12th grade. Kids can even access IXL on the go through the app or on your phone or tablet. No more trying to figure out how to explain math equations or grammar rules yourself. IXL has built-in explanation videos.
And look, my son is only two and a half right now, but I can already tell by the time he is in school, he is going to appreciate having someone explain why something is the way it is. He doesn't like just to be told. So those explanation videos are going to be super helpful. Make an impact on your child's learning. Get IXL now. And CounterClock listeners can get an exclusive 20% off IXL membership when they sign up today at ixl.com slash clock.
Visit iXL.com slash clock to get the most effective learning program out there at the best price.
This message is sponsored by Greenlight. A new school year is starting soon, and if you're a parent, you want to make this school year an opportunity for your kids to learn important life skills and continue building independence. For that, there's Greenlight. Greenlight is a debit card and money app for families where kids learn how to save, invest, and spend wisely, and parents can keep an eye on kids' new money habits.
There's even Greenlight's Infinity Plan, which includes the same access to financial literacy education that makes Greenlight a valuable resource for millions of parents and kids. Plus, built-in safety to give you peace of mind. My son is only two and a half, but already he knows what a card is and what it does. He actually took it up to a vending machine the other day, swiped it, and, well, let's just say he's going to be a spender when he's older.
And so Greenlight is the perfect thing for him. There's even a chores feature that lets you reward your kids for honoring their responsibilities around the house. So what are you waiting for? Sign up for Greenlight today and get your first month free when you go to greenlight.com slash counterclock. That's greenlight.com slash counterclock to try Greenlight for free. greenlight.com slash counterclock.
Pat Strader's statements to police from day one have always been that she had no idea what ammo went to what guns in her house, or really any knowledge about firearms whatsoever. I don't shoot guns. They can talk about the .44s, the 7mm, and the Magnum. I don't know what in the world they're talking about. A gun is a gun. I can't tell you what's a rifle and what's a shotgun.
She claimed to be completely ignorant of John's interest in guns and was unaware what ammunition he used or why. When they stored the gun in there, did he typically unload it or did he leave it loaded? I don't know. I don't handle that gun, so I don't know. Did he normally wear the gun when he went out in the woods? I can't answer you that he did every time.
Pat didn't know anything about a box of 17 caliber red tip bullets being in Mel Sr's pickup truck, and she had no idea where John got them from. He found those somewhere in something. The only thing she remembered was that John asked her about the bullets right before he loaded his revolver and went over to take the trash to the woods on the day he died. John came to me
I was in the computer room and he said, "Grandma, where are these?" and he named them off. And I said, "Donna, I don't know." I said, "During your granddad's funeral, we had people in here cleaning." And I said, "They likely shoved it anywhere." So we went in the kitchen and opened the drawer. One right on the corner, he said, "Here they are." I said, "And what kind are those?" And I believe it's one of those types that when they mushroom out, I said, "Man, you better be careful of those."
So, to summarize everything for you to make it a little less confusing, we have Patrick Skinner, Mack Wells, and Matt Wells all saying they knew 17 caliber ammo was at the Strader home and John became aware of it shortly before his death. But Mack specifies that John told him he found the ammo in Mel Sr.'s truck, and Matt at first said that too, but then later claimed he'd never seen the bullets before.
And lastly, we have Pat with a completely different story that says John got a hold of some red-tipped bullets, but they were not in the safe, they were in a kitchen drawer. Here's my point with all of this. There's no doubt there were two identical Ruger revolvers in the mix back in '03 that were both capable of being loaded with 17 caliber ammunition.
Rounds of that kind of ammo may have been stored in two places in the home, the safe and the kitchen drawer. But in my mind, the only way six bullets get in the kitchen drawer is if Matt or someone else put them there after unloading Mel Sr.'s gun, if it was in fact unloaded and stored in the safe like Matt said.
If no 17 caliber bullets were ever put in the kitchen drawer, then Pat's whole story about John finding them there before he went into the woods is a lie. Where I'm going with this is that I feel there's a very real possibility that either gun could have been used in John's murder. Why law enforcement didn't consider this scenario in 2003 is something I can't explain.
I mean, detectives were told about the two guns. They were told undersized ammo was loaded in each of them, and they knew all of their suspects could have accessed them. Documents in the case files show that after talking to Matt, FDLE agents seized as evidence the six Hornady bullets that Matt claimed were the rounds he took out of Mel Sr.'s gun. But at no point was the actual firearm seized.
It never underwent ballistics tests or a forensic examination. It was never fingerprinted or sent for forensic testing. It was never considered relevant in the investigation. But I think it could be really relevant. So that's why I had to find out what happened to it after the crime. Turns out, it didn't go far.
It ended up with Skip, and our team only found that out after speaking with Carrie, his former fiancée. The only guns that I have left of Skip's, I have in a holster. I believe it's a Ruger. I believe it's a six-shot, and then Skip's name is engraved on it. So you have that here? Mm-hmm, in my storage building.
Carrie made that comment when David and I interviewed her at her house. And I think as soon as she said it, she had a realization. I don't know if I should have even brought it up. That's odd. You asked a question that I think... I followed up with her after that, and she agreed to take me to her storage unit and look at the gun. But then every time we tried to meet up, it couldn't happen for one reason or another.
Then one day, Carrie called and told me that she actually didn't have the gun anymore. She said she'd forgotten to tell me that she sold it in an exchange for a four-wheeler a few years ago, and it was a cash deal. The irony.
Anyway, I wasn't sure what to make of Carrie's story about selling the gun and forgetting to tell us. She seemed pretty sure during our initial recording that she still had it in her storage unit. And to be honest, we kind of felt like she had connected the dots about how relevant the gun really was.
We felt like she just didn't want to let us see it. But the truth is, I have no idea whether or not Carrie has the gun anymore. If she did sell it in a cash deal in order to buy a four-wheeler, like she said, then so be it.
That sale likely wasn't conducted through the proper channels, so finding a record of who purchased it from her is slim to none. I also can't look up the serial number for it, because when police wrote it down in their reports, they incorrectly missed a digit, so I have no way of tracing it.
The good news is that the firearm itself is pretty unique. It's an old model six-shot single-action Ruger revolver that's engraved with Melvin Eugene Strader's name. I'd say that's kind of distinct. So whoever has that gun now, if you're out there listening, please contact me. That firearm could be of extreme importance to this case.
I'm not saying Ballistic's test would confirm conclusively it was involved in John's murder, but maybe, just maybe, DNA analysis could be done on it even this many years later. I know that seems like a long shot, but it's not impossible. DNA Labs International confirmed that the testing they're doing now to retrieve small samples of DNA from firearms is the best it's ever been.
How long an item has sat or possibly been in an unideal environment is not as big of a challenge thanks to advances in technology. So when we're measuring how much DNA is there, we're able to see smaller quantities now. Amplification.
where we basically like make xerox copies of the dna we do that now more locations and with higher you know efficiency than we previously did and then also the last part where we're actually generating that dna profile those instruments have all been updated and made more sensitive
Even in tough conditions, we've gotten DNA from a gun that was recovered from the intercoastal, which if you're not familiar with Florida, is like a canal that kind of runs adjacent alongside the coastline. So obviously not ideal circumstances. We were able to get touch DNA off of that gun. I think it had been in there, do you remember? A week. Yeah. It was in the intercoastal for a week in saltwater.
But there's definitely technology and we barely need any DNA to get results at this day and age where they needed a lot more back then. So the likelihood of us getting something now is much more likely. What year do you guys think that really? In 2017. In 2017. When we all changed to the chemical kits. Some cases we would see when we initially ran it, we would see two DNA profiles. But when we ran it after with these newer kits,
we would actually see four people's DNA profiles. So they were always there, we just weren't detecting them before. So now when we go back to cold cases, we can detect a lot more people or DNA profiles than before. Are there any cases, and we'll just say for instance, touch DNA cases, where knowing what you have at your disposal now
If you could have the opportunity to go back and look at cases from 2007 to early 2000s, late 90s, that you'd say, I think we could do so much more. So many. And there's so many cases, too. I keep running lists for there's like new technology that I know is going to be, you know, six months or 12 months or 24 months down the road where we keep running Excel sheets of this list so that the second that technology is available, I can be like, boop, boop, boop.
and call up that detective and say, okay, that thing I told you about five years ago, it's here. Let's do that. So if I have a case from 15, 20 years ago where touch DNA was analyzed, but there was really nothing that could be assessed from it. If a case like that were to come back and be resubmitted today, what kind of things could be applied that could perhaps bring a few more answers?
"Anytime a report says due to the limited amount of information or the limited amount of DNA, I'm always like, 'Try it again now.' If it was anything prior to 2016, try it again now." The last thing that has me convinced Mel Sr.'s identical .22 revolver should have been and still needs to be evaluated as a potential murder weapon has to do with bullet count. You see, law enforcement seized a box of Hornaday 17-caliber ammunition from the Strader home after John's murder.
There were 38 bullets in that box, according to police reports. Traditionally, that particular brand of ammunition was sold in 50-count boxes. I verified that with our firearms expert, Aaron Brudnell. They typically are in the 50-round boxes of that type. I'm not saying there aren't some out there, but this particular brand and this particular type of ammunition is the only way I've ever seen it.
So, if there were 38 bullets left in a 50-count box when law enforcement got the ammo on July 9th, that meant there were 12 bullets missing. Six bullets presumably loaded in John's gun from either the box itself or the kitchen drawer, and six bullets that were unaccounted for. Those unaccounted for bullets, realistically, could have only been one of two places.
in Mel Sr.'s identical .22 revolver, or rolling around the safe drawer where Matt Wells said he put them shortly after his granddad's funeral. What's an absolute fact is that one of those 12 bullets ended up being fired into John's eye, killing him. The question is, what gun did it come out of?
If Patrick Skinner is right when he said he found John's revolver on July 8th with six unfired rounds in it, then how did a spent shell casing end up in it by the time authorities got a hold of it on July 9th? Did a swap of fired and unfired ammunition take place between the two revolvers in the critical hours that the gun was away from the crime scene but not yet in the hands of investigators?
It come out of my possession into their possession, okay? It stayed at that house that night up until the cops actually went and seized it. Whether or not he was shot with his own gun, I don't think I ever even definitively found that out. That's what I'm exploring more on the next episode of CounterClock. We don't know for sure if this particular firearm in question was the one used. Listen to episode 14, Statistics, right now.
Voters know that bad weather, like storms, lightning, and wind, can turn a fun day on the water into a challenge.
But what if you had satellite-delivered weather data giving you the full picture of what's around you, even when you're offshore and out of cell range? With SiriusXM Marine, get up-to-date weather directly on your boat's display. Features include radar, lightning, marine warnings, wind and wave info, and much more. And for offshore anglers, imagine having a guide that tells you where it might be best to cast your line. Fish mapping does just that. It's 8
fishing focused features including fishing recommendations weed line info plankton info and sea surface temperature information can help you find fish faster plus you can add Sirius XM entertainment and listen to ad-free music plus sports talk comedy news and more while you're on the water visit SiriusXM.com slash marine to learn more
Shopify is the global commerce platform that helps you sell at every stage of your business. With the internet's best converting checkout, 36% better on average compared to other leading commerce platforms, Shopify helps you turn browsers into buyers. In fact...
Shopify powers 10% of all e-commerce in the U.S. Sign up for a $1 per month trial period at Shopify.com slash podcast free. All lowercase. Shopify.com slash podcast free. Shopify.com slash podcast free.