Season 3: Bonus Q&A
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Start a 30-day free trial at WalmartPlus.com. Paramount Plus is central plan only. Separate registration required. See Walmart Plus terms and conditions. Welcome, CounterClock listeners, to the long-awaited bonus Q&A episode for Season 3. Joining me today is the executive producer who I think needs no introduction, Ashley Flowers. Hello. Thank you for joining us, Ashley. Of course.

It's come as no surprise to both of us, though, that the CounterClock inbox has received more than a thousand listener-submitted questions after the binge release of Season 3, which was something we did differently with CounterClock than we've done with past seasons.

Right. And honestly, like, I'm not surprised we had that many. What's surprising me is that we didn't have more. Like, I had a thousand questions of my own because this case was just so in-depth and so complex and there's so many people and theories and pieces of evidence. It was wild.

Yeah, and I think, you know, I'm the one that, like, did the investigation and, like, wrote the scripts, and, like, I still even have so many questions kind of, like, swirling in my head after everything. But before we dive in and start discussing some of, like, the most popular submissions that people had, I actually have some updates to share about information that's come literally, like, in the last two weeks.

Yeah, this is what's so exciting to me is like this truly is for being such an old investigation, like things are really happening. And literally, I feel like every time I talk to you, you're telling me that there's something new that's happened or something that's about to happen. So, yeah, I think it's only fair that we give the listeners like that information first.

Right. So first thing, this past Wednesday, I spoke with Fran Watson, Jeff Pelley's post-conviction attorney, and she told me that in the last two weeks, the St. Joseph County Prosecutor's Office has told her that they have found all of the items of missing evidence in the case. This is the stuff that's, like, been missing since, like, 89 and, like— And they found all of it. Like, the last time you and I even spoke, they found, like, half of it. Right. So they have found all of it, and this is according to Fran. Right.

And this is the stuff that they've been looking for forever. This isn't stuff that she just asked for like five minutes ago, right? Right. Okay. So like that timing is very interesting to me. Like how long ago did she ask for it? Do you know?

So she asked for it, like, a couple of months ago when she filed that motion for discovery request. But she's really been asking since she's had Jeff's case, but, like, in terms of formal, like, documents, she put it in, like, not that long ago, like, after the PCR and everything. Yeah. Well, it's awfully convenient. Again, we dropped, like, 20 episodes, like, blowing the whole story open, blowing this whole case up, and then, like...

Boom. They just kind of like find everything that's been gone for decades. Yeah, I think the timing is definitely interesting. But what Fran would tell me, though, is that right now she's making arrangements in the next couple of days to drive up to St. Joseph County and review the pieces of evidence and take pictures. And she may take some of her law students with her. I don't know how all that's going to work.

But obviously what I'm dying to know is, one, is the locket with the pictures of the white man and white woman there? And two, is the key there that was found in the Pelley's garbage bin outside of the parsonage? And three, is the original Tony Beeler videotaped interview with police queued up and, like, ready to roll?

Girl, what I would give to be in that room with Fran when she's going through this stuff. I know. I know. Because, like...

All this time, like she's been wanting this stuff. And this has been like critical stuff like in the PCR and just on everybody's mind. But, you know, like we aren't lawyers, you and I, Ashley. And so from this point on, I kind of have to like take a step back and let Fran do her job because I don't want to compromise like any progress that she could make by talking with her like too much and getting St. Joe Cowding like kind of ticked at her for sharing too much information with me. Right.

Right. And that's totally fair. And I think that that's like the beauty of what we're doing here. And I think really clear lines that you can draw in situations like this. I think that there's immense value in bringing attention to the case and letting people know, like,

We're watching you. Like, this isn't a case that people have forgotten about, but not doing it in a way that actually hinders the legal proceedings. Right. And, like, whatever does come out of Fran's review of these, like, pieces of evidence I think is going to change the case no matter what. Like, I don't know if it'll be exactly what she's hoping for, but I don't know that it won't be earth-shattering. So, you know, we'll find out at the next pretrial conference on June 25th kind of, like, how all this, like, shook out.

Yeah, I mean, personally, like, I wholeheartedly believe that whatever is revealed by all of this stuff combined with, you know, what we keep calling the blue jean facts is

I don't see a world where that's not enough to at least grant Jeff a new evidentiary hearing, right? I think so. And that kind of brings me to, like, my next update, which is the state's response to the post-conviction relief filing, the third amended one that we, like, refer to as, like, the PCR. Right. So this is, like, St. Joseph County's formal response to Fran's PCR, right? Like, that's what you're talking about? Yeah. And, again, what...

And with the timing, they had this for how long? They've had this a long time. Like over a year, they've had her third amended PCR. So on May 3rd, a year and five months after she filed that PCR, the state like finally gives this response.

And really, their biggest— Five days after the season drops. Right, yeah, exactly. So timing, again, very suspicious. But their biggest claim is that even if this sort of infamous Tony Beeler police interview tape is unearthed and provided to Fran, which they obviously have said they had—

and we know it was never turned over to Jeff's defense trial attorney, Alan Baum, the state basically says in its response that even if there is something juicy in there that supports a theory of like a third-party involvement in the Pelley murders or that like someone at least had motive to kill Bob other than Jeff, the state says that that testimony from Tony Beeler is hearsay anyway and should never be allowed in an evidentiary hearing if that were to come in the future.

I mean, I get that to some extent, but then my question is, if it shouldn't have been admissible, if it really has nothing to do with anything, then why not turn it over back in like 2005 or 2006 when Jeff was going to trial? Like, why wasn't the question of whether this is hearsay or not answered once and for all the first time around? Yeah, and I agree. I personally think like after all the work,

that I've done and put into this, that that interview tape is likely very substantial and it wasn't turned over for a reason back, you know, before trial, which is one of the points that Fran makes in her PCR. Yeah, because I think what, I understand that it's hearsay and I understand like maybe that alone isn't evidence enough, but like if Alan would have had that tape, could he have gone down some additional paths of investigation that would have completely changed his

Yeah, and that's, you know, one of multiple arguments that she's made. And even when we interviewed Alan on the show, he was like, are you kidding me? Like, if I had that, like, are you kidding me? That's my gateway into the Florida facts.

And so, yeah, I think that would have beefed up his argument tremendously. But, you know, here we are. We don't know what would have happened.

But basically everything else that the state said in its response to the PCR just, like, opposes all of Fran's points, which, of course, we expect. Like, this is court, right? This is, you know, lawyers going at it. St. Joseph County prosecutors told the judge they don't feel there's any material evidence to support third-party involvement, like, nothing. And they also don't think that Alan Baum was an ineffective defense attorney for Jeff at trial. Like, they don't agree with the IAC complaint in the PCR report.

The state, like, wholeheartedly believes that Allen did his job well. And this is what's so surprising to me is that Allen, like, currently admits that he did make some major mistakes. Yeah. And he actually supports Fran's argument that, you know, she should have filed, like, IAC on him. And I just find that sort of, like, contradiction just so surprising. Yeah.

Yeah, I don't know that I've ever seen this play out, not that it never has, but where the lawyer at the time is saying, like, no, I was ineffective. I'm here to talk about the missteps I took and the things that the mistakes I made, the things I didn't do. And the prosecution's like, no, no, no, buddy, you did a good job. Yeah, like it's really rare for a defense attorney on a case this big to say, hey, you know what, I really missed some critical things and I'm willing to go under deposition with post-conviction attorneys. Like,

I mean, nobody wants to say, like, I messed up, but he's saying that. And so, yeah, that's what's so surprising. What's also interesting about the state's response to her PCR is that nowhere in their nine-page answer did they address the argument that it's possible Jeff's blue jeans, the one that Craig Whitfield believes were pulled from the washer, that they might not have actually been washed. Like, they didn't address the blue jean facts at all, which was a huge section of the PCR when Fran filed it.

But not once in their response did prosecutors address that or admit that maybe, just maybe, the blue gene evidence was manufactured. Listen, I don't think they're ever going to say that it was manufactured or that they weren't washed because if they did that, then, like, that literally destroys so much of the case for them. Yeah. But, like—

do you just not even address it? Like, to me, that's more of a red flag than anything being like, OK, we're going to talk about this point and this point and this point, and we're going to pretend like this one doesn't exist. Yeah, I think it's really one of those moments where have you ever been having a conversation with someone and they ask you or you ask them a very direct question and they sort of ask you a question in return? Like, you didn't answer my question. You know, it's kind of like one of those glaring, why aren't they addressing it kind of things. And it just makes you want to talk about it even more. Yeah.

Yeah, exactly. And we're going to get into it a little more when we get to listener questions. But in addition to those updates on like the Pelley side of things, I also have some really cool updates regarding Eric Dawson's case. And the big things in that are, one, the Lee County Sheriff's Office got flooded with a ton of listener emails and calls demanding his case be reinvestigated. So, you know, kudos to all of you out there who listened to, you know, sort of help beat that drum.

And secondly, the sergeant over Eric's case at LCSO is in touch with the person who currently has the Pelley's .22 revolver, which is like a big point I made in episode 20. So testing on that could happen soon. Again, I'm not like all in the know on it, but I know that that's kind of like in the works.

And then third, and I think kind of one of the coolest things so far, is that Jason Dawson was actually able to go out to Corkscrew Road in Lee County and walk the land where his dad's body was buried back in 1988.

And by some miracle, Eric's like old land, like the parcels itself have not been developed, which is wild to me because so much of that area of Lee County is now like just new subdivisions after new subdivisions. And it's been all built up except for this like little small section of woods.

I know. And it gives me chills like when we when we talk about it, because I think what's important for people to remember that might not sound like a big deal. But for so long, for all these years, nobody knew exactly where it was like his son was never able to go out to that area. And I remember when you told us this a couple of weeks ago and you actually like shared like a video that he took. And I mean, literally like everyone in the office was like crying. But I think you need to tell everyone like how that happened, because that's what I think is like so cool.

Yeah, so a woman who lives in Lee County listened to season three, and she actually grew up on the dirt road next to, like, the general swamp and woods where Eric was killed and buried three decades ago.

So she wrote me an email explaining that her grandfather and parents remembered exactly where Eric was found because it was near their home. And her granddad did some surveying of that land back in the day. And they, like, knew the parcels of undeveloped land really well and knew which one was the one that Eric owned.

At that time, they also knew members of the Hawley family. And this woman sent me an updated parcel map of like the specific Cypress Head clearing that her family says is where Eric was found. And she like circled it in red and like sent it to me via email. Well, I ended up getting her connected with Jason. And literally two weeks ago, he went out there with a close friend and he just got to like walk around. And he said that he found a lot of peace that day.

Like he said, he's never known exactly where his dad was killed and buried, you know, for two months, like the two months that Eric was missing from the time he disappeared to when his body was found. Like nobody ever knew where exactly it was. And so I wanted to share some audio from a video that he sent me while he was visiting the site. This is where it happened. This is the trail back to the area where the red circle was. No way of getting back there unless we had some

Better boots and some better jeans. But this is it. Unbelievable. Nobody would ever find somebody back here. It's incredible. Yeah, that moment is just incredible. And again, I come back to it's truly amazing what this one podcast, Reinvestigation, can do

Just to bring closure. I mean, no, it's not as good as Eric's case being solved, but this is definitely a positive outcome of all of this. I know. And a moment like that is not something like I ever expected would be a byproduct of season three. I think a lot of people ask me, like, what are you hoping to achieve? Like, what's the goal? And like something like that, you you cannot anticipate it.

And in the same way with I didn't anticipate what the most asked question of season three was going to be, which, Ashley, let's see if you can guess.

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Okay, so I don't know that I can nail it down. Again, I have thousands of questions on my own. But just from what I was seeing on social, I have a feeling it probably has something to do with the Hawley family. Bingo. So the most asked question we got was whether or not anyone in the Hawley family owned or drove a black pickup truck in 1989. And my answer is possibly.

Now, listen, I know why people are asking this question. It's because of Lois Stansbury's eyewitness statement. She was the one that said that she saw Bob Pelley standing next to a black truck holding a shovel-like thing around 5 p.m. on prom night in the exact window of time that the police say Bob was supposed to have been being murdered.

Right. And I think because we now know how close Bob and Phil Hawley and his family were, people really want to know if that black truck could have been one of them. And again, my answer is possibly. But just a word of caution to people whose minds get, you know, kind of carried away with the Hawley.

is we can speculate all day long, but we have to remember that the Hawley family is not nor has ever been formally brought into the Pelley murder investigation. Like they certainly have linkage to Eric Dawson and the financial crimes against him,

But in the end, speculating about whether they could or may have been in Lakeville the night the Pellys were killed is ground you really have to tread carefully. And that's something that I feel like, you know, we had to do through this whole season because I wanted to be like 100 percent transparent and honest, you know, with all of the listeners.

Fran Watson obviously raises concern that the Hawley family was in Lakeville or could have had motive to be involved, but that's because she's Jeff's lawyer and she wants to prove there's a third-party involvement scenario in general. But to answer people's questions about whether or not I found a black truck tied to the Hawleys, all I'll say is that while doing deep dives on their property records and doing kind of Google Earth street views on all of their properties, I'm not sure if I found a black truck tied to the Hawleys.

In one of the carports of one of those homes that is registered to one of their family members, there is a dark-colored older model pickup truck parked in the driveway. Yeah, I remember when you found this and you sent me this. And I do. I remember being like, oh, my God. But I think that I'm glad that you kind of gave that disclaimer to everyone because even I kind of wanted to get carried away. And it could mean absolutely nothing. Right.

Yeah, I mean, it's definitely, like, strange in one sort of those wild moments that you have doing this kind of work. But, you know, who's to say that that truck doesn't belong to a tenant or a friend or, like, you know, a lawn care worker? Like, who knows? And because there's so many kind of convoluted lawsuits and bankruptcy and business documents all sort of spread out through that family, I could not find any sort of, like, legitimate vehicle registration that ties a black pickup truck to

Right. Right, yeah. Like, we have to tap out. Yeah.

The second most asked question people had was whether or not anyone remembered Jeff's hair being wet or not when he showed up at the Lakeville gas station to fix his car and when he picked up Darla for prom around 5.30. Right, because...

Just as a refresher, like the state's theory is that Jeff murders his family in like this 10 to 15 minute window. He cleans up all the shell casings. He grabs the gun. He does a load of laundry. He showers before leaving the parsonage. So and again, he's doing all that in a teeny tiny window. He's not blow drying his hair. So if he took a shower, his hair should be wet when he's clocked at 517 by Dennis Nicodemus at the gas station. Right.

Right, except no one, including Dennis, Darla, Mark Berger, or Lynette Greer, remembers Jeff's mullet hairstyle being wet or freshly showered. They all say he looked normal and maybe even like a little bit annoyed or disheveled. They say he was wearing his blue jeans and a black Hawaiian t-shirt. None of them distinctly remember him having wet or damp hair.

The other big question listeners wrote in asking about was what car part did Bob remove from Jeff's Mustang prior to prom that made it inoperable? And when did that part get put back so that Jeff could, in fact, drive his Mustang?

Yeah, well, I mean, like, that's one of the biggest unknowns, right? Like, if Bob put the spark plug or fuse or whatever they say it was back into the Mustang himself, then that's proof that he and Jeff came to some kind of agreement prior to 5 o'clock on Saturday that Jeff could have, like, driven himself to prom. So that eliminates what police say was Jeff's motive for the murders. But if Bob didn't put the fuse back in the car and it was Jeff who installed it,

Then maybe that's why Jeff was having car problems and had to stop in the first place because he could have, you know, done it wrong or put it in the wrong place or something like that. Yeah. And I mean, the answer to me is one or the other. I think what's also super important when we're talking about the Mustang is the fact that Jeff was also washing his car around lunchtime on that Saturday.

which to me is an indication that he and Bob had come to some agreement that the Mustang was going to prom that night. Or else, why was Jeff washing it?

But to the police's point, they would argue that Jeff washing his car was him plotting and already knowing he was going to kill his family and then take off to prom. So the car part being fixed, him washing it, who exactly fixed the car part is not something that I think the answer is really crystal clear on and probably never will be. And, you know, again, that goes for the car washing. Like, what does it mean? Yeah.

Yeah, I feel like you could, even these two facts and so much of this case, I think it could be a good fact for Jeff or it could be a bad fact for Jeff. But like it just depends on how you're looking at it. Yeah. And while we're kind of on the topic of prom and Jeff, I wanted to look at another big question people submitted. And that's about the checkbook that had those two checks written out in Dawn's handwriting, but a third check for 120 bucks that wasn't in her handwriting. Yeah.

Delia, I think about this checkbook all the time. I know. And like it was wild to me how many people like really got hung up on this. And like not hung up like in a bad way, but just like they were on it with the details. And some people's questions were like, can handwriting analysis be done or fingerprinting or a way to figure out like

when those checks were dated or cashed. And my answer to all of that is we don't know. We can't know. I mean, it's been so many years. And all of the investigation police did about the checkbook was just take that one statement from Ed Hayes, Dawn's dad, in which he recounted finding the checkbook weeks after the murders. Right.

Because, again, to be super clear, like, police did not find this. Like, they just turned what could have been evidence over to her parents because they're like, here's her purse. We don't need it. And it's her parents that told police. But it may or may not have ever even been collected as far as we know. Yeah. So, like, Ed Hayes tells them about this checkbook.

I don't know if they took it. I don't know if they did any sort of like forensic analysis of the bank records. Like, I don't know. And I wish I did. But I think it just goes into that bucket of just so many unknowns. It also didn't come up at trial. So I have to think it's just kind of like been lost with time.

But to answer people's questions, though, if what Ed says is true, then Dawn wrote out a check for Jeff's prom expenses prior to the murders. And she intended to give him money for prom activities, which to me confirms that Jeff was allowed to go to prom. And the question is, was he allowed to drive himself or not? That's what the whole motive of the case is based on, him driving himself, not the fact that he couldn't go.

What the third check with unfamiliar handwriting for $120 is all about is just a complete mystery. Right, especially because didn't Ed say that that much money being cashed would have, like, overdrafted the family's account, right? Yeah, exactly. So the check for $120 makes no sense to me because I'll always wonder who wrote it, why, and, like, who they gave it to. I'll always wonder if it was even cashed.

Right. For all we know, it could have been Jeff. It could have been Bob. It could have been a stranger. Who knows? My frustration is the fact that, like I said, Indiana police didn't include anything in their investigative files explaining, like, looking into the Pelley's banking and financial records, which is wild.

it's not wild to me it's frustrating like how is that not like standard practice in a quadruple murder and this is one of the things I keep coming back to in this case more than anything is like

I could say this statement for almost every piece of evidence we talk about. Why is there no, like, standard for how things are going to be investigated if you're going to put a 17-year-old or, at the time, a 17-year-old in jail for his life? Yeah, I agree. I mean, when we look at cases now, looking into banking records is, like, it's, like, number one. And a lot of times it doesn't reveal that much. Like, sometimes it's totally innocuous to a case, but, like, you do it anyway. So why that wasn't done, I'll never know.

Moving on to another pretty frequently asked question is, where is the bag of guns that were given to Thomas Kebb? And did anyone ever look in the bag? I feel like it's like, what's in the box? What's in the bag? What's in the box? My answer to that is we don't know. And there is no indication that anyone ever followed up on that lead back in 1989 or in any of the years after. Which is awesome.

Unreal. Yeah, Thomas Kebb is still alive. I spoke with him on the phone and he says no one has ever asked him about it. Like he did some depositions back right before trial and like was called to the courthouse but never called to take the stand. Like he's down to talk about this.

Yeah, this is back to like my standard of investigation. Like, I think you did a pretty good job in the show of explaining like why finding that bag and knowing whether or not the Peli's 20 gauge shotgun was inside it or not would be super important. Because if

If the gun was in there, Jeff is not guilty. He could not have done it. If it wasn't, like, we're back to where we are now. But to have no one check that, like, mark off the box or whatever, you know what I mean? Like, no one, like, check that line item. What are we doing here? Yeah, and I think it's so important. And I go back to Craig Whitfield's soundbite in the show where he says,

where's that gun? And he's referring to the family's 20 gauge. And he says, if you find that gun, you'll find the murder weapon because he believes Jeff committed the murders. But like the question of where is the Pelley's 20 gauge? Is it in that bag? Was it put there before the murders? Like it changes everything about the case. So this seems like it would have just been so huge.

Well, it's so strange for me, too, because it's not like they weren't looking for the gun. You know what I mean? Like, I think if you want to get conspiratorial, you can say, like, oh, they didn't want to find it. But they wanted to find it. Like, they were dredging ponds. They were doing a lot of work to find it. Why not just, like, go down the street and see if this guy has it in a bag?

Yeah, the potential murder weapon and its location is huge in this case. And so you would think you would do everything possible to find it or, you know, eliminate what could or couldn't be it. And so, yeah, it's really mind boggling.

A lot of the same people who asked that question also asked why no one heard any of the gunshots that killed the Pellys. And it's a question that I actually had from the moment I started looking into this case because I'm like, a lot of victims, a lot of gunshots, time of day, like how did nobody hear any of that? In a pretty rural area. I mean, like there's – it's quiet out there, right? Like –

Sick shotgun blasts have to be super loud. And we know based on witness statements that people are in their homes near the parsonage. This isn't even like farmland where people are miles and miles away. Like they have neighbors and people are driving up and down Osborne Road for prom.

Yeah. So my answer to listeners is I don't know how anyone didn't hear any of those blasts. Like if it's a scenario where Jeff is just running through the house, firing off shots, you know, killing his family, then someone would have had to hear those blasts. I mean, right? I mean, we know that there's like a neighbor mowing his grass at six o'clock. There's people on Osborne Road, like you said. But if it's a scenario where it's not Jeff and say it's like this hitman theory, then I guess that person probably used a silencer or something. I mean,

I will say, though, that a few neighbors after the murders were discovered came forward and told St. Joseph County Police back in 1989 that they heard several gunshots on that Saturday. But their statements were that they heard the shots around 2 p.m., which we know can't be the Pellys being killed.

Right. Because they're all alive at quarter to five when Kim Oldenburg and her friends stop by the Parsonage to take pictures. And like that's not even close. I don't think you'd mix up like 2 p.m. and 5 p.m. It's not like, you know, 430 or 5. That could be close. I think this is something completely different. Correct. And like you said, we're talking about a rural area. I mean, on a Saturday, like people could have been shooting guns in the afternoon. Like who's to say?

So those few reports of people hearing gunshots can't be associated with the crime because they happened, like we just said, like way too earlier in the day. There's also a question here about the downward angle of the gunshot to Bob's chest, which indicates a shooter was taller than him. The person who wrote in asked if Jeff was taller than Bob in 1989, and the answer is no, he wasn't.

So this whole trajectory of the shot to Bob's chest doesn't make sense with Jeff being the shooter unless Jeff was holding the shotgun, like, sort of, like, above his shoulder, angling it downward, which is kind of awkward to me to do. But, I mean, I don't know. It's not impossible. Yeah, and before anyone starts going down the rabbit hole, I don't think there's any indication that Bob was, like, kneeling or anything like that. Like, the shooter and Bob were standing. And so for Jeff to have done it, he had to have been holding the shotgun, like you said, up above his shoulder, which—

Yeah. I mean, it doesn't really add up with the science, but then again, how much attention was paid to science back then? I don't really know. So, Delia, one of the questions that I saw come up all the time that I, like, gravitated towards because it was the question that I constantly had in my mind was,

was about why all these kids were, like, going to Jeff's house to take pictures for prom. Because I do remember someone saying something like, oh, it's so weird that Jeff wasn't in his suit because all of his friends were there taking pictures. And I was like, no, no, no, no, those weren't Jeff's friends. Jeff was going to meet his friends. Everyone who came to take pictures wasn't, like, Jeff wasn't in their prom group. They were coming to see Bob Pelley. Like, these girls were coming to show Bob Pelley their prom dress. Right.

Yeah, and I'm with you. It is weird. It's strange. My answer is I have no idea. Never once in my life in high school did I ever go to my pastor's house to take prom pictures. So it is strange. And there were a lot of people that made that observation as well. Yeah, I know nothing else about it, but I could talk about this for days if people want to. Yeah, and honestly, the weird thing too for me is that both Kim Oldenburg and Crystal Easterday said in their statements that they had like

dated Jeff briefly in high school. So my question is, is why would they want to take prom pictures with other boys at the house of their ex-boyfriend in front of his father? Like, it is just so strange and weird, and I can't understand what's going on there. Like, I know families are tight, but like,

with church. Like, I don't know. I know that the one thing people have said is like, oh, Bob had a really nice camera. But he had like this 35 millimeter. It wasn't like a professional camera by any means, right? No, no. So he had a camera. I don't know, 89. Like my family, my dad was a pastor. Like we made no money. But my parents had a camera when I was born in 88. So I don't think it was even like

I don't know. I can't figure this out. It's so strange to me. And again, my dad is a pastor, too. And like girls weren't coming over to my dad and showing him their prom dress. Yeah, agreed. Strange. The last crop of questions that we have time for, which I think is really important to discuss, is about clothing. What Jeff was wearing and what the victims were wearing. And this is something that a lot of people had questions about. So I want to take the last couple of minutes that we have to address all of this stuff since it's kind of what seems to be like eating everybody up.

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Visit iXL.com slash clock to get the most effective learning program out there at the best price. So it looks like the big question for a lot of people is when Dawn and the girls' bodies were found on Sunday morning, were they wearing what Kim Oldenburg and Matt Miller last saw them in around quarter till five on Saturday?

It's a good question. It's a great question. According to their statements to police, Kim and Matt don't specifically remember what outfits everyone had on. They remember Jeff wearing that like checkered shirt, but not what Don or the girls or Bob were wearing. What?

What I know for a fact from looking at the crime scene photos is that Dawn and the girls were not in clothing they would wear to, like, Sunday morning church, like little dresses and, like, anything like that. So that leads me to believe that the family was killed on Saturday night at some point. Now, whether it was at 5 o'clock, like when police say Jeff did it, or if it was later, that's really what's up for debate. And I think your point, Ashley, is correct.

pictures would be huge, right? If we had those. Yes. I talk about this all the time, too, is if everyone will remember. So, you know, everyone's coming over to Bob's house because he's got this great camera and supposedly is good with it.

His picture is like – I know he's probably trained on the prom goers, but did they catch Dawn or the girls like in the background? Because if Jeff did it, they would have had to be wearing the same clothes they were wearing when everyone showed up because he kills them supposedly right after. But if you remember, the police said that like the whole roll of film was blurry, so they just like threw out all the pictures. Right.

which is bananas to me. Like, it's not even saved in evidence. And Delia, do you know, is it the physical, like, prints that are thrown out or did they get rid of the film too? I don't know. All Fran Watson has told me is that when she tried to get the film,

They were like, oh, we can't find it. It's part of that crop of missing evidence. But like, or it could be part of that. But we developed the film back in the day and it was all blurry. So we threw it away. So she might have it now when she goes back? Yeah. So like the responses have been so conflicting between law enforcement, you know, the prosecutor's office. But like my thing is like, again, if they did exist and they aren't in this like batch of missing evidence and they had, you know, been provided before trial, like,

Alan Baum, no matter how you want to gauge his proficiency, would have looked at those, right? Yes. I mean, he even said at trial, like, where are they? So that tells me they were never given over. I don't know what the explanation was, but, like, that would be huge at a trial. You know, you blow those up and you show the jury. Look at the outfits the girls have on. They're different clothes or they're the same clothes, like whatever it is.

While we're still talking about clothes, some people also asked, couldn't Jeff have owned two different pairs of similar-looking blue jeans? Like, why was everybody so sure that he couldn't have worn blue jeans out of the house and also have had another pair in the washer? Yeah, so I think the question there is, is did a teenage Jeff own more than one pair of blue jeans? And the answer is probably, but that's not the point.

The point is that only one pair of blue jeans were taken in as evidence. So St. Joseph County police back in 1989 believed that the pair of jeans that they say they got out of the washer was what Jeff wore while killing his family. And Craig Whitfield is like dead set on this to this day.

The problem is Jeff was seen wearing blue jeans at Lynette Greer's house after he supposedly killed his family and put them in the washer, like police say. So police didn't have two pairs of blue jeans in evidence saying one came from the washer and one came from Jeff's trunk. They're adamant only one pair of blue jeans are important in this case. So the question of whether Jeff owned more than one pair is, in my mind, irrelevant because the cops...

only cared enough to look at one and put it in the washing machine. Right, yeah, they're not saying, like, he didn't own more than one pair ever or at the time. They're saying there was only one pair that they seized, and those came from the washer. Those were the one that he was wearing when he murdered his family.

And what the evidence shows to me is that those jeans did not get washed. And we even brought in Patrick Serpoli to, like, give us a professional, you know, kind of expert opinion. And he agreed that they more than likely came from the trunk of Jeff's car. And that's why they don't have any forensic evidence on them. And they came back from the FBI lab as soiled because I don't think they were ever at the crime scene.

Because if you remember, the Anna's grocery store bag is like the huge thing about the blue jean facts. You know, Fran's point of bringing up, you know,

Why would you put wet evidence in a paper grocery sack? And then more than that, the Anna's Grocery Store bag coincides with the fact that it would have had its origin at the Greer's home because Rebecca Greer, Lynette's mother, worked at the store. So logically, it makes more sense that the jeans came off of Jeff's body when he arrived to pick up his girlfriend, right?

mom of the girl at that house, you know, Rebecca Greer gives the bag to Jeff to throw his clothes in while he changes into his tux and then he puts them in his trunk. I mean, to me, like, we're talking like sequence of events here. And here's the thing that drives me bonkers. And like the same way when they respond to the PCR, they like ignore this glaring piece and it makes me want to talk about it more. This piece of evidence wants me to talk about the timeline of Jeff even more because they want to say that, OK, the the receipt of

Couldn't have been in the bag because then that means they put evidence in that bag and that the bag wasn't like it came from somewhere else. It doesn't make sense. There's no way to explain it. So they have to say the receipt was in his pocket. And they're like, oh, and it was from the day of the murder. So that proves it. Okay, well, if it's from the day of the murder, where does that fit into your timeline? When was Jeff at the Ananias grocery store? Because that's not in any timeline you've ever presented ever.

Yeah, and I think that was a huge question for me as I'm going through this same conversation with Craig Whitfield in the interview in the show is I'm going, okay, like, Craig, you're telling me, like, the receipt's in the pocket and you think Jeff went by the store that day. That's the only way it would end up in his pocket, right? So where in the reports did you see that anyone went to the store to confirm he went there? And how did he get there if he wasn't supposed to be driving? And, like, all of these questions then begin to crop up

That completely just obliterate. I mean, they just obliterate the logic of it. Yeah. So I don't I don't understand how you can use like you can use that as such a big piece of your evidence. And your timeline is a big piece of like your story. But you're not willing to even like even attempt to explain like how they fit together. They're just like we're just not going to talk about them. Yeah. But we're going to say that they work. Yeah.

Yeah, the blue jean facts, just to cap this off, the blue jean facts are critical in this case. They are critical in terms of timeline and evidence and just sort of logic of everything. And that is why, you know, Fran made a majority of her 70 plus page PCR about this. And I think, again, what we said earlier, it was not addressed in the state's response for a reason. And we're going to see that maybe play out in the future.

Okay, so we've spent a lot of time talking about the Pelley case. Let's kind of rapid fire some questions about Eric Dawson and his case. Okay, cool. Did the Dawson family ever get the stolen property back after the Hollies were found guilty of forgery and land theft?

The answer is no. So according to court and property records, Eric's land on Winkler Road and the Corkscrew property were both foreclosed on because, you know, Eric was dead and he wasn't really paying his mortgages to begin with when he was alive. Like I mentioned in the show, he's kind of in some financial trouble. So the back bay development, the one out on Fort Myers Beach, that also got sold and it went to an auction and the rest of the properties, like I said, just kind of went back to the banks and that's how everything sort of folded.

Okay, was there any video surveillance at the airport where Eric's car was found? And was the car processed for DNA? And ultimately, what happened to the car? Yeah, Eric's car is super interesting to me, like the more I thought about it. And, you know, his car was processed. But, you know, you got to remember that it was wiped clean. So Tom Continos, the former detective on the case, said back in 88, LCSO detectives didn't get much from it. I mean, it was just totally wiped.

The airport in Southwest Florida couldn't provide me any information from 1988 regarding video surveillance. I mean, I highly doubt they had it, but they also couldn't give me flight records or manifest from back then because I kind of wanted to do a deep dive and see like what planes were coming in at what times, who was on them, like, you know, all that kind of stuff.

So as far as what happened to Eric's car, though, it got released back to the Dawson family a few months after the murder was discovered. And Robert, Eric's eldest son, actually drove it around after that.

But what's really interesting is that in talking to the Dawson family, the original key to Eric's kind of sports car was never found. Robert had to use a spare key to drive it around. So whoever moved Eric's car, presumably from the murder site on Corkscrew Road to the airport and then wiped it down, that person kept the initial car key.

Okay, this is me like spiraling a little bit. So bear with me. Is there a world in which the keys that were never found are the keys that end up in the Pelley's trash can that like we don't know about but maybe Fran is now getting access to?

Yeah, so it's definitely one of those rabbit hole questions, right? Because if, you know, the answer is yes, that opens up a whole new can of worms. But, you know, I don't know. I don't know. And I think that's what we're going to see in, you know, Fran looking at this missing evidence. Okay, so last question, and this is one that people sent me directly. They were sending into the email inbox. I know you got directly. Did you ever get scared while investigating this case?

Of course. You know, we're talking about a lot of wild theories, a lot of scary stuff in both the Eric Dawson case and the Pellys. And you and I both know, Ashley, that, you know, safety comes first. I mean, we're constantly, you know, looking around every bend, you know, not knowing what's going to come next. I have looked over my shoulder a lot in the past year, and I have thought a couple times, like, am I being followed? You know, just sort of that general, like,

consciousness that we all should have. I do have to tell, I'll tell the listeners one funny story is, so I have, we're always like very conscious about knowing where like investigative reporters are at all times and that they're in contact with someone because this can be dangerous work. And there was one time when you were here in Indiana doing an interview and like I hadn't heard from you in like way longer than the interview was supposed to take, not way longer, it's like 15 minutes. But

But I was, like, texting him, like, hey, just, like, tell me you're good. Tell me you're good. And then I didn't hear from you. And at 30 minutes, I was, like, calling your husband. And then everyone was freaking out. And then finally, you were, like, you guys, like, my energy, you just ran over. It was a great interview. Like, I need you all to calm down. Yeah.

Yeah, the audio check all points bulletin for me went out like 10 minutes delayed. But no, I mean, and that's good. And I guess in the end, what I will say is that, you know, my fear level is moderate. It's healthy. It's moderate. And I know what I'm doing for a living. And I know the risks that come with that. So that's where I am. Thank you, everyone, for listening to this special bonus episode. I hope that we were able to answer at least some of your burning questions.

Yeah, if you guys, I hope you're not listening to the bonus without finishing season three. If you are, go ahead and finish that. Also encourage you to go back and listen. There was so much information. I promise you, you'll catch new stuff the second time around. And if you haven't, if you were introduced to Counter Clock through season three and you haven't listened to seasons one and two, absolutely do that. And the best advice I can give you is start at season one first.

You guys can follow the show on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you listen. And like I said at the end of episode 20, I will be back with a future season of CounterClock.

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