Deep Dive
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You know, they say money is the root of all evil. And sometimes that can be true. But what it most definitely is, is the root of deceit for a teenage girl. ♪♪♪
So let's start off with our players. We have Tommy Schaefer. This is the boyfriend. He is also the co-defendant. We have Sheila Von Wise Mack. This is Heather's mama. She is the victim. She is also a white woman. And then we have Heather Mack, our murderess. Heather Mack was born March 17th, 1995 in Oak Park, Illinois, which is like the suburbs, the west suburbs of Chicago, to her two parents, James Mack and Sheila Von Wise Mack.
Her father, James, was a famous jazz composer and sat as the chairman of the music department of Harold Washington College.
They lived an extremely comfortable life. Her father had Grammy Awards and a comfortable job, and they were pretty much, you know, rolling in dough. Her mother, Sheila, was an academic scholar, but she pretty much didn't have to work because her man was a breadwinner. Because a scholar is just learning, not a job, right? Well, I mean, I think that she also was like, she would maybe freelance editing jobs.
some scholarly journals and things like that. So yes, she was, she was a rich Lynn and maybe people would go to her for smart people shit, but she didn't have to work for real, but she was a socialite and they had their only daughter together. Heather Mack James soon found out that he was diagnosed with pancreatic cancer. This was very crushing to their family. And they actually found out in the later stages because of
According to the research I saw, pancreatic cancer, it can be cured when it's found in the early stages, but there's no symptoms in the early stages. So it's a thing. So it was really crushing to them. And Heather was like the ultimate daddy's girl. She loved her dad. He loved her. Anything she wanted, she got from him just with a daddy please. You know what I'm saying? And his health was deteriorating so fast that they just wanted to spend as much time together as they could.
And their way of spending time together was to go on these lavish vacations. Like they would just go anywhere all over the world. They had seen the sites, all of that. And they were doing as many as they could together just to live out James's last days. So while on a family trip to Athens, Greece, her father, James ended up passing away on August 6th, 2006 of a pulmonary embolism, which is basically a blockage in the lungs, which is a result of the cancer, according to WebMD.
This was really a turning point in Heather's life. She lost her hero, her father, her best friend. He loved her so much that he left his entire inheritance solely to her. Y'all, this man had not one, not two, but five other children. Five other kids by two other wives. And those children and those ex-wives got nothing. Nothing.
I mean, I can see the wives getting nothing, but your kids. But the children. Not you picking a favorite. I'm not married or thinking about that. But if I ended up marrying somebody that had kids and I see that you don't take care of your children.
Like I have attractive in a man. I have step siblings, but I don't call them step siblings. Like I was raised that that is no more my sister than this one was my sister. You know what I mean? And we weren't even allowed to sit here and try and make the difference. And I feel like that's how it should be because how dare you act like one child is more important. It's one more important than the other. And that's,
That's really unattractive in a man. But with this money that was left over, her mom was supposed to use the money to take care of her. And then Heather would get the money herself when she turned 21 years old. So, but I mean, as you can expect, even though he had money in there while taking care of life for them, just didn't go back to normal. They lost a big pillar in their life. The home is now empty. She doesn't have her father anymore. And Heather kind of copes with this by...
being outside basically she would go party she would go drinking she would go down to like downtown chicago so i was trying to figure out where this oak was from chicago and i had to map quest it and it's literally like she you can tell that she's definitely in the suburbs but it's like a 30 minute ride 35 minute ride to get to downtown chicago from where she from her fancy place on the hill i guess um
And that's what she would do. She was still her mom's credit card and she was out partying, having a good time. And her and Sheila just started to fight. Like they were fighting. They were fighting all the time, arguing. Heather started skipping school. Sheila was like, you need to calm the fuck down. Heather's like, make me bitch. And while Heather was out partying one night, she met Tommy Schaefer performing, rapping at a party.
Okay, so this is when she meets Tommy Schaefer, aka Tommy Max. That was his rap name, in case you didn't know. Her mom definitely described him as a bad seed. She didn't want him hanging out with him. But, you know, Tommy had his own troubles.
Because I can't remember if it was two months or four months. But a short time before this, his previous girlfriend actually died. Wow. That's a lot. Yeah, that's a lot for a young teenager to take on. So I think they were just kind of running from their troubles together. You know what I mean? Like, they both lost somebody very close and important to them at a young age. And they're dealing with it. And they don't know how to properly deal with it. And life is just hard. Like, as...
that trauma will connect you in a whole nother way. You know what I mean? I know.
Oh, I know. I was like, I was like, I think that has a lot to do with their whole connection and the lengths they were willing to go for each other. You know what I mean? That's crazy. And yeah, he was also born of with a single mother. They were who worked very, very hard. And he was in college for music, but he dropped out because he wanted to perform full time. And sorry, y'all. Unlike Rodoté, we did not find a song.
So yeah, the couple, they were dealing with their own shit. You know what I'm saying? And they escaped it through partying, through drugs, through drinking. And they paid for all of this with Sheila's credit cards. Like, how many theft cases did we find that Sheila put on her own daughter? 11, at least 11 theft charges from her just stealing from her mom. So they were definitely out partying on her mama Sheila's dime and...
And as if that was not enough, Heather soon finds out she's pregnant. It's a baby, y'all. It's a baby. Now, if you're like, why did Sheila not snatch Heather up by her hair and tore her by her hind side? Because, like, ain't no way in hell my daughter about to be stealing from me, paying for her and her boyfriend living in my house. You know what I mean? She's white, so...
That's the thing. Them mixed girls with white mamas, y'all can get away with anything. And don't let them have money too. My mama would never. Would never. I couldn't even look wrong. You know what I'm saying? My
My mom, like, it's three of us with my mom. And she was like, that's three of y'all against me. You know, because she was a single parent, too. She said, I had to make sure that y'all didn't get bold enough to turn on me. She was like, I had to make y'all scared of me before y'all scared me. And she obviously didn't follow the same tactic because I would. Clearly. And same thing with my mom. Like, if my mom is a single parent and she was raising my ass, it would.
She was going to make sure I knew what was what. Listen, I knew what I could not do over there. You ever had a friend ask you something? I'm like, well, just go tell your mama. I'm not telling her nothing. If anything, if I have a friend, I'm going to ask my friend to go ask my mama for something. And my mama would be like, don't get your friend to ask me too. Because now you put me in a situation I didn't want to be in. I know. I get the same thing. But she's going to say.
Sheila was no match for Heather. According to the Chicago Tribune, Sheila called the police 87 times but never pressed charges. She's got like 11 for her daughter being run away or missing. 11 I found that were related to a domestic disturbance dealing with theft. 16 reports for violent behavior.
And one, for like a child pornography, Sheila walked in the room and caught Heather in front of her camera taking pictures of herself. She had her top off and she was holding her boobs and shit. And apparently she bedded some nigga and lost the bed. So now she, not only does she owe this nigga sexual favors, but also $1,000 on top of that.
I would be dead. And Sheila said a week before this, $1,000 went missing. So... Bro, I would be... One time, I got in trouble for taking pictures with, like, the swimsuit tops. And, you know, I was covered, but I had, like, the swimsuit tops trying to, you know, be cute. But we weren't friends when this happened. Yeah.
That was when they were renovating the gym. And so my mom pulled up at Tucker Middle during a basketball game because that's when we were playing the games at Tucker Middle. Found this nigga. Took his phone. Made him delete the pictures. And when he was like, they deleted it, she said, let me check. In the middle of a basketball game. Could die from the embarrassment alone. I...
And if my mother had to actually ever call the police on me, and that's the thing, like you call the police this many times and 11 of them are domestic disturbances and nobody was arrested and no charges were pressed. And I think maybe that's a Illinois thing because I know in the state of Florida, if you call for, I don't know about Georgia, but if you call for a domestic disturbance in Florida, they don't care if you say, oh, that's what you know. Yeah.
true uh if you call up seriously they were like they don't care if they pull up and you say there was a domestic disturbance and you can't be like oh officer no we good somebody's going to jail is it you or is it you i has never had a mug shot so i'm gonna let y'all keep it at that my mama ain't calling the police no 87 times
that's what we're not gonna do that's what we're not gonna do so sheila is like if it's all this you can get the hell up out my house and we can just be done with this and we can just be done with it you want we can just be done with it we exactly so sheila is stressed out at this point heather is literally out of control stealing money from her she does not know what to do with this girl and she's like emailing her friends back and forth and she's like i'm really kind of low-key scared of her i don't know what she's going to do next one time when they were are
arguing heather actually pushed sheila and sheila broke her arm so it's not like so sheila has been hurt by heather physically and she was emailing this friend named elliot like if and so my only thought is would my mama beat my ass with the broken arm or would she get it patched and then beat my ass you know what i'm saying he would never get to that point in my house never i wouldn't even condolate my hands on my mama
Listen, Yana used to, Yana, when she gets mad, she kind of just holds her hand in a fist. And that's all she would do is hold her, not even, she wouldn't even raise them. They'd be by her side and she'd just fall her hands in a fist. My mom would be like, you want to go? You want to fight me? No. Okay. Because you're looking a little froggy.
what is up not the arthur fist listen she had the arthur fist and my mama was like that's too much for me right there that's already too much for me she's got this friend named elliot that she was emailing back and forth y'all gonna see elliot on criminal minds i hate i kind of don't want i don't like him but anyways he's got a lot of emails where she's saying like oh i'm really scared of heather i don't know what she's gonna do next this is what old white people do they email they enjoy emailing their troubles to other old white people i've noticed this i just
Y'all don't ask me why, I know. So it's a thing. So she was really, like, emailing her sorrows to her friend named Elliot. So she was like, okay, my daughter and I really need to reconnect. Like, we...
We need to get back on the same page. And this is her daughter. She's already lost her husband. This is the only piece that she has left. This is her only little bit of her own little family. You know, she's got to make things right. So she's like, all right, Heather, how about you and I just go on a little mother-daughter vacation? Just, you know, like we used to do.
I'll book us a trip to Bali and we'll get away and just get to reconnect. We'll get matching outfits and all of that shit, right? And Heather's like, trip to Bali? Love it. Yes, let's do it. Now, of course, they had to get the best of the flights instead of five-star resorts because they got it like that. And it's a long flight and niggas don't want the chair, they want the bed. So she bought them each a $10,000 flight.
to bali and they stayed at a five-star resort called the saint regis hotel and it's located in the sudor bali their suite was one thousand dollars per night but you know you do what you want when you pop in so ten thousand ten thousand fourteen thousand so they spent thirty four thousand dollars on this trip just to get there it was a two-week vacation so fourteen thousand being all the nights right
This is somebody's whole year's salary on a vacation, on a two-week vacation. All right. According to the pictures from the trip, they looked like they were having a pretty good time. You see them in their little matching white dresses in front of the sunset on the little beach. They got pictures of them out to eat. Everything's all smiles. And then I think it was, what, four days into the trip, Heather just starts running off. And it's like, okay, whatever.
We're in Bali together and I'm the only person you know. So where the hell are you? Like, what are you doing? Sheila goes down to the front desk. It's like three o'clock in the morning. She's like, have y'all seen my daughter? And the front desk is like, uh, no, but we do have another...
Room booked under your name. She's like, uh, come again. Say what? Like clockwork. Heather comes walking down hand in hand with Tommy Schaefer. Girl, when I tell you my mom would have just drop kicked my ass right there in that lobby. Oh my God. She probably would have. My mom would have probably done some crazy karate move. I ain't never knew how about it. I'm saying because first of all, I got you out here to get away from this nigga.
But second of all, this nigga ain't got no goddamn money, so what the fuck is he doing here? But my thing is, like, why would you, in order to reconnect into, like, a punishment... It's not a punishment. It's not a punishment. This was a... You don't think it's a punishment? Like, no. This is her last-ditch effort. She's like...
the boy is the problem so if I take you halfway across the world from this boy then we can maybe get back on the same page and eliminate the problem because I feel like on a series and shit some of the family was saying that the dad's death actually brought them closer and then she got into the wrong car you know what I'm saying so I'm sure she's blaming everything on Tommy not only is he
like coming in at this right time of her disturbance but he's a poor ass black boy you know what I'm saying so he is the problem so she's like if I'm going to take you halfway across the world
So that you can't be around him. And then the problem just walks down. You'll forget this nonsense. Right. But then he, here she comes walking hand in hand with him. So she's like, um, how on earth did you get here? Cause like we said, these are, these suites are a thousand dollars a night. And remember we said that their flight was $10,000. Turns out Tommy Schaefer's flight was $12,000 because he wrote business class. And Sheila's like, okay, I know this little nigga ain't got no money.
So y'all gonna have to tell me something. But in the back of the head, she already knew her credit cards were stolen and he is now here on her dime yet again. So y'all, while I was researching this, I was like, you know what? I want to go to Bali. Like I want to be, I want to be out in Bali. So I looked up the flights. I just went on delta.com cause I know they, they, they not going to be on cheapo air like me. So I went on delta.com and I looked up for my birthday in 2022 and,
And I only looked for a week. So if I left May 5th and came back May 20th, that round trip ticket is $14,548. So that's a lot of money. And Sheila knows that it's a lot of money.
to get him here so they get into a huge shouting match in the middle of the lobby of the resort like screaming yelling and finally heather's like let's just go back to the room oh my god mom you're embarrassing me let's go back to the room so they calm down they go back to the suite so according to the security cameras in the hotel what we could see at the time is that they enter sheila and heather's suite
Then after a while, Tommy leaves the suite and goes back into his own suite. Then Tommy goes back to their suite. Then we see them leaving back and forth a couple times. And finally, Heather goes down to the front desk and she asks for some duct tape.
She returns to the room and then the couple is seen leaving the hotel room with a suitcase. Now, this is one of those hardback fancy suitcases with the swivel wheel, right? And there's duct tape around the suitcase, but also there's a white sheet around the suitcase that's covered in duct tape. So it's already looking a little suspicious. It was the sloppiest shit. And what?
Where the fuck did the duct tape come from? They went down to the front lobby and asked for it. That ain't no way in hell you're telling me they keep duct tape, that silver ass duct tape in a hotel. Well, apparently they did it because they got some. So a cab driver was dropping somebody off at the resort. So they flagged down the cab driver. They're like, hey, oh my goodness, we need to go to the airport or whatever. And they were like, here's our suitcase. They put the suitcase in the trunk. The cabbie pops the trunk. And they're like, oh, we're just going to check out real quick. We'll be right back, sir.
so the cab driver waits and waits about 30 45 minutes and he's like where the fuck are these is this young couple i mean they look like children where the fuck are these kids and he's like i'm gonna take that out he takes out the suitcase and he notices that on that white sheet hmm it's leaking and it's red looks kind of like blood
So he goes to the police and the police open the suitcase and inside of the suitcase they find the calm, I guess it's not compacted. Inside the suitcase they find the folded up bloodied body of Sheila Von Wise Mack. Music.
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So they know exactly which resort the suitcase came from and they know they're looking for an older white woman's identity. They go and they're like, all right, front desk, old white women's who you got. And it did not take long for them to realize that Sheila was the only old white woman that they could not account for because the hotel also makes copies of everybody's passport that enters, you know, very five star. So they're going to make sure that their P's and Q's are taken care of. So the hotel gives the police a key to the suite. The police enter the suite.
And it is a mess. I'm telling you, there is blood everywhere. And police are like, okay, so we know that she checked in with her daughter. Where's her daughter? In the hotel room, they find Sheila's passport, Heather's passport, and two cell phones.
That's when they're like, okay, let's start checking these security cameras. Let's see what's actually going on. So they go, they're checking the security cameras. They see that they put the suitcase in the cab. And then the couple actually runs out of the back of the resort, jumps a wall, flags down another cab, gets into the cab. And from the direction that the cab was going, they were like, we can probably figure out where they're headed. Because they know they're not leaving the country because they have their passport or at least have Heather's.
How do you leave your passport? Yeah...
So, like she said, the police are certain that they know where the two are going. And they pull up to a low-budget motel and they ask the front desk if they recognize the couple. The front desk immediately recognizes them. And to top it all off, the two checked into the hotel using Sheila's stolen credit cards under their real names. So they immediately get arrested. But they're like, no. What had happened was we were kidnapped by these gangsters that you have around here. Because, like...
Where they're staying is in this centralized tourist bubble. But if you step on the outskirts of that, you're kind of in that dangerous... Sex trafficking is really big there. Like, a lot of crazy shit can happen. Yeah, so it's not a completely unbelievable story. But they were like...
Maybe the way they told it, it was. So they're like, we're kidnapped by these gangsters that you have running around here. And they were trying to take us. We got this motel to run away. And...
It just sucked, guys. It was a terrible story. So they're like, listen, first of all, we know you weren't kid-bound 9-0 gangsters because we don't found your mama up in this hotel dead. We know where Sheila's at. And second of all, we see y'all putting her body into the car. If the gangsters did it, why y'all disposing of the body? And they're like, okay, okay. It wasn't gangsters.
What really happened was that they flew Tommy in so that they could, together as a couple, tell Sheila in this beautiful paradise that Heather was pregnant. But when they told her the good news, Sheila became extremely violent because she's racist, right? So she grabs a knife and she threatens to cut the baby out of Heather. And she's talking to Tommy and she was like,
You dumbass nigga. Why the fuck would you get her pregnant? Yo. Heather's like, we trying to tell her about the baby or whatever. And she flips and she's calling him all types of n-words. And she was like, nigga, why?
what makes you think that you can get her pregnant? You don't got no money. You don't come for nothing. And now you, and she was like, Heather, why the fuck would you get knocked up by a nigga, by a nigga who ain't got nothing? She was like, now your baby going to be blacker than it needs to be. And, and for what? For nothing. Because you done went and got knocked up by a poor ass nigga. So that's what Heather said that her mama said. Yeah. She was like, my mom was so racist.
So that was their claim to self-defense. That was their claim. So yeah, so they're saying like she came after her and she says it switches. So she switches from getting a knife towards her. I guess Tommy stopped her from getting a knife. And so she turns to Tommy and she starts choking him. And she says...
That she's just screaming, no! She's like, I'm just screaming. I'm going to hit in the bathroom. So she's choking Tommy. And Tommy reaches over, grabs a fruit bowl, and knocks her upside the head. And from there, he just went crazy and bashed her in until she died. At this point, the police are like...
I guess it's a probable story, but you just told us this bullshit-ass lie, so now I don't know what to believe, right? But her being bashed over the head with a fruit bowl, it lined up with the physical evidence. Like, the fruit bowl was smashed at the crime scene, you know? It was obviously the weapon of choice. It matches...
Like what could have caused the bludgeon marks on her head, you know? So it lines up. By the time they're getting this story, Sheila's body is already in a coffin headed to Chicago, right? The two are arrested. And the first thing they got to figure out is, is this girl even really pregnant? So they give her a pregnancy test and she is in fact telling the truth. She's pregnant.
So they put her in a jail and they have to await an Indonesian trial. So trial for the two begin in January of 2015. Now, court in Indonesia is different from court in the United States. You know, we have a trial by jury of your own peers, unless you're black, because America hates you.
But in Indonesia and Bali, well, Bali is in Indonesia. Y'all know geography. In Indonesia, they have, you present your case in front of three judges and those three judges will deliberate and give their decision, give their verdict. These two decided they was going to stick with their story of self-defense. Everything that they said before, yes, there was a fruit bowl involved, but we did not premeditate this murder. It happened because she was trying to hurt us. Everything that you just heard. But...
The prosecutors had something up their sleeve. Apparently, Dumbass 1 and 2 didn't know a little thing about text message records. Okay, so they're basically looking into two main texts. The text messages that they're focusing on are the text between Tommy and Heather, but also between Tommy and his cousin slash best friend, Robert Ryan Justin Bibbs. So, Robert Ryan Justin, um...
Just his regular old cousin or whatever. He's still back in the United States, but Tommy is like giving him the play-by-play. Okay, so apparently on July 24th, 2014, Tommy was texting Robert Ryan Justin that, yo, she really trying to knock her mom off.
And he said, we got to talk. So Robert Ryan Johnson says, about what? And Tommy responds, bucko bucks. Your mind about to be blown. Ten minutes later, Tommy says something. He's got bang bang and some emojis with the money bags. And he says, we on in a month.
A little bit later, like a couple of weeks later, Tommy hitting him up again. I'm too geeked. When I say pack your bags, it's for real this time. I'm telling you, G, we can start celebrating. He said, oh, if somebody robbed me right now, I would ask them if they needed anything else. Niggas love talking shit. They do. Because mind you, at this point, Heather pretty much guaranteed that she had about $11 million waiting for her.
Like an inheritance. But also, mind you, Heather was 19. All she had to do was wait till she was 21. Tommy keeps going. He's like, get a passport, nigga, so we can take off. He said, I come back for a week or two, then I'm off to Italy on chief. In about a year or so, I have all that money. Not all of it, though. A couple mil, probably. So, like, he really thinks he's about to get paid, okay? And not paid no little bit. Paid some big shit.
So he's like, you my bro, so if I eat, you eat. So we in this together. So now they're looking into the messages the day of the murder, right? And Tommy is texting him.
Robert Ryan Justin, and he's like, she wants me right now while she's snoozing. So basically saying Heather wants her to kill her mom while she's asleep. This is where Robert Ryan Justin fucks up. He says, go sit on her face with a wet pillow then. Tommy says, what would you do? And Robert Ryan Justin says, if there's no cameras then. Basically saying, if you ain't seen the nigga go through with it. Fuck.
So then they get into the messages between Heather and Tommy. And so they've done figured out a code and basically saying hi is code for go kill her. Right. So it's like 820 a.m. And she says there's no better time. Heather texts him and says there's no better time to say hi, is there?
And for the next 37 minutes, they're going back and forth texting her. And Tommy's like, go with your gut, baby. I'll be outside if you need me. I'll hear it. And then later, Tommy writes, I promise you, Heather, all I have to do, G, is get her weak. G, no, listen. I'll be standing by the door. I'm coming now. So then they're kinking. They're like, we on our Bonnie and Clyde shit. And...
Yeah, they think that shit is so cute. Tommy says, relax, you're Bonnie, do it. So then they talked about what if they use a big ass pole to knock her off. And Heather was like, are you sure she'll knock out? At this point, police are like, they're pretty sure that Tommy is hiding in the bathroom. Yeah, like they got a big suite, like it's probably rooms in that bitch. So she was like, Tommy is hiding in the bathroom.
um that she shared with her daughter right before the murder takes place so heather's like okay slow but don't keep the door open for too long she was like too much light comes in and then she said text where you're in slow g quiet if i talk at all just come in quick so tommy's like all right here i come and then he says good job stay over there she's facing the other way so they're looking at each other right like i guess he can peek through the bathroom
And see her. She sees him. They're getting ready for this shit to really go down. So he texts her and he says, she's awake. Then she says, can't we suffocate her together? And he's like, all right, my phone is on 1%. And he's like, let me just creep up and whack her. Once I do it, she was drunk, slipped and fell. So Heather responds, okay, G. Okay, just knock her out. It'll be much easier. Is the door closed? Phone dead? No.
And after that, you see Tommy coming out of a room and he's got something stuffed underneath his shirt, right? Which they believe to be the fruit bowl. Correct. Yeah. So this was the evidence that...
It was like, OK, this is obviously premeditated. Y'all talk this out. Y'all been talking this out. You told your cousin a week ago you was about to make a hit off this shit. So you plan to commit this murder. And on top of all that, Sheila, they were the whole we tried to tell her that we were pregnant. Elliot, she was a little nosy ass friend, was like, oh, no, no, no. About two weeks before the trip, she sent me an email saying,
Saying that she didn't know what to do because Heather was pregnant. So this wasn't no, oh, we wanted to tell her and surprise her type shit. Heather says, don't get me wrong. I definitely talked about killing her and was definitely putting together a plan. But what happened that night was an argument getting out of control.
like i was planning to but this was not that or this didn't happen because i planned it to happen this here happened because we got into a fight and it got out of hand the way that those cameras show them walking so calmly through the hallways yeah they're walking not only that shifty but like they're walking calmly enough that i'm like y'all are really thinking something out this is not oh chaos is happening in this room
Not only that, why did these reports say that there's evidence that shows that they had sex in a room after the murder? When Sisters Who Kill began, an online store was the furthest thing from our minds. I mean...
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Rocketmoney.com slash sisters. Shut up. That's not true. I would not make this up. Don't sit here and lie to my face like that. Send me that. Sure thing, friend. Sick and twisted. Girl, she is sick and twisted. So in March of 2015, the trial is still going on and Heather ends up going into labor. So she has to be rushed to the hospital. The trial is put on pause until she has the baby and is able to return to court.
Once court resumes, they finish stating their case and the three judges finally give down their verdict. Tommy was found guilty of premeditated murder and Heather was found guilty for aiding and abetting a murder because technically he is the one that did the knocking out. Tommy received 18 years in prison and Heather received 10 years in prison and they are both
doing those prison sentences in Bali. Now, the judges admitted that Heather, they're jailed like they can see each other. Yes. And the judges admitted that Heather having a baby in the middle of the trial proceedings was influential in her getting such a light sentence. They said it was just unfair for a baby to grow up without a mother. And under Indonesian law, the baby Stella, that's the baby's name, her name is Stella,
she is able to she was able to stay in the prison for two years with her mother and then she was would have to leave the prison which i i think it's cool like babies in prison not you know babies in prison but like those first years you really need your mother they don't know where they yeah and this prison was nothing like an american prison and i don't mean that in a bad way like it
There are. OK, so I watched a whole documentary on this prison, actually. And the biggest issue with the prison is that it's overcrowded. And when I say it's overcrowded, it's operating at almost two times the capacity, if not a little over. So if they have a room that's supposed to or if they have us, I think the jail is supposed to house like 86 people and there's like 300 or something. I don't know.
It's something really crazy. But the thing is, people are really upset because in this prison, you're allowed to have your cell phone. You're not wearing a prison uniform. You're wearing regular clothes. You're allowed to smoke cigarettes. It's so nice. Like they said, the documentary, it starts off with a guard. And the guard is like, these people, we're like their parents. But also we're a guard. But like...
we're just trying to keep them on the right path, which I think is a lot better perspective to have in being a guard. It's more of somebody that you raise as somebody who you're punishing, right? Right. And even the inmates, they're like, we're all in here because we did something bad and we're just trying to be better people. And we all get that and we respect that. They have respect written on the walls. Nobody is a number. Everybody is called by their names. They said the guards, they go around and greet everybody. There are eight unarmed guards that walk through their...
At all point in time. You know what I'm saying? Because the security doesn't have to be that high because people are not acting a fool. It was like, we don't have people scaling the walls or trying to escape. But they were also like, you ain't got no choice. Like everybody. And also this prison was, is mostly international people to Bali. Like most of them aren't actually people that are from Bali. And it's located inside the tourist Mecca. Like it's in the middle of the, in the middle of the tourist attraction. This is where the jail and it's a heavy international prison.
proportion of people and most people are there for drugs because Bali is really really strict on drugs so most of them are for smuggling drugs so won't be smuggling shit there um I know I mean some people literally on possession charges and they're serving life like they don't play about that drug shit there's a woman at this same prison that
smuggled in cocaine from it was an older white woman from Britain she got life but she was up and you could get the firing squad and so could those two they were up for the firing squad too if the judges wanted them to get a firing squad they would get executed by firing squad so like when I hear that I'm like whoa that is fucking crazy but they also got very light sentences in a jail that's
Essentially not. I mean, like she's wearing designer glasses. And that was another thing. You buy your way in this jail. So there's the rooms where people are sleeping on the floor, touching each other. And they say we have to arrange ourselves and how we're going to sleep so that we can all be as comfortable as we can be.
Or you can buy yourself into a room with just five people. Or you can buy yourself an own room. And they was like, we want your money up front. So in order to just get out of the main population and get just a little bit of privacy, you need $100 the day you're arrested. And then it's $25 a month from there on out. Yeah.
And so they were really upset because they... I guess this prison also has programming where they try to rehabilitate, try to get you on your feet. And I feel like prisons should have that type of programming. So one day, all the women in the prison had to do this, like, dance performance recital thing. And I've heard about prisons doing, like, theater and things like that. But it was reported... I think it was Indonesian Independence Day. It was Indonesia's Independence Day. So they were doing something for that holiday, and she had to dance, and it was...
Put on the news and America went ballistic. Like, how dare she dance? How dare she smile? And I was like, I mean, the prison is not that bad. Her sentence was very light. But how dare she smile? But I mean, she had on the sunglasses. The girl beside her had a Gucci hat on. Like...
It looked very lax for a prison. Definitely looked like she was at a camp. Yeah. And I think they're just... They're in America. She's not being punished. But also, like, American prisons are shitty, you know? And then Elliot, speaking of Elliot, bitch ass. They were like, what do you think about her prison? And Elliot was like...
You know, I just feel like she should be tried in America, in an American prison, somewhere at a work camp, either sewing American flags or making license plates, getting $2 a month. And I think that that would be fair for her. And I was like, so you want her to be a slave? Basically, I was like, this is terrible. I think prison should be for the rehabilitation. I don't think...
Honestly, if you're working the steps and rehabilitating yourself, life will punish you on its own. You know what I'm saying? Like your guilt and stuff will eat up at you. I don't think you have to also be abused and mistreated. So about four years ago, because she has a cell phone, Heather decided she wanted to post a confession. I'm going to let y'all listen to a clip. I'm Heather Mack and I want to be set free.
I don't want to live in a lie anymore. When I was 10, my mother killed my father in a hotel in Athens, Greece. Two weeks before I came to Bali, I found out that she killed my father. And I made it up in my heart, in my mind, my soul, in my blood, in the oxygen running through my body that I wanted to kill my mother. I got this whole new...
savage idea in my head that I wanted to kill her in a hotel room because she had killed my father in a hotel room. We were going to Bali so I began to plot. I began turning off Tommy's phone, taking Tommy's phone when he was asleep, starting in Chicago, taking Tommy's phone and having conversations between Tommy and myself, texting myself, having fake conversations, and then deleting them before he could see them.
I didn't want to get arrested by myself in a different country. I trapped him here. And that is what I regret. I don't regret killing my mother. And as evil as that may sound, that's my reality. If somebody killed Stella, I wouldn't regret killing them either. But I regret bringing Tommy into it. I regret being selfish.
I regret trapping an innocent person into this because it was my battle. It was my mother. It was my father. I feel like, how do you feel about this clip, friend? The issue is two weeks later she recanted. She doesn't know what she's doing. She doesn't know what she's doing. And so the most consistent thing that she's telling us now is that she's a liar.
Like, and now you're saying that you did it because your mom killed your dad. Where was that during the trial? And where was that evidence? Like, but she was 10 and present when her dad died. According to the records. And her mom and her were in the room with him while he died. So how is it now a murder? And you've got a whole autopsy report saying that it was an embolism. Yeah, I just feel like she's just going to cause an embolism.
She is consistently lying. Just consistently. And it's, girl. I also heard that it was possible that she's addicted to drugs because drugs run really rampant in that particular prison. And so there was a rumor that she's getting really addicted to drugs. Also, she's been flicking the bean. Playing with the captain on the boat. So she's got her little girl, a little girlfriend or whatever. So she loves talking to media.
Um, some other lady had reached out to her and she was just like, she was talking to her about what happened. And then this is when she explains like it wasn't, it was planned, but that particular moment wasn't planned. Um, she talks about, she was like, so first you said it was gangsters. Then your mom was a racist and Tommy killed her. Now Tommy didn't kill her. And now Tommy actually did kill her. You was just lying. Yeah.
And she was like, she had their ass at the end of the interview. She was like, do you trust me or do you believe me? And the lady was like, how can I politely say no? She said I couldn't. So I just had to go out and say it. She was like, well, you should. You should believe me.
She said,
And she was like, it might have looked like I was just a rebellious teenager hanging out with gang members and missing school. But she was like, it wasn't like that. She was like, my mother would drink heavily at night. And once she was drunk, she'd start fighting with me. And I'd hide her car keys to stop her from driving and going to the store. And then that's when she asked what happened the day your mom was killed. And she told her to come back tomorrow. Right.
So she comes back tomorrow. But when she comes back tomorrow, she kind of just, she doesn't really say anything new. She's just like, that's when she gets into it all kind of got out of control. And that's when she's like, you should really believe me, right? So while she's there, remember her and Tommy are being held in the same prison. So she's like, Tommy has not talked to any media outlets or whatever, but I'm still going to try. So she goes to Tommy and she was like,
She tries to talk to him. Or she waits for him in the visitor's room or whatever, right? And she's like... She waits there until almost the end. And Tommy finally comes up. And he's like, what do you want? And she was like, just wanted to see if you wanted to tell your side of the story. And he looks at her. And he's got like tears in her eyes. And she holds his hand. And she was like, it's okay if you don't want to tell me. And he was like, no, I can see the good in you. And I'll tell you. So Tommy has found God. And he's like...
They both, both Tommy and Sheila, you know, both Tommy and Heather, they're like, definitely glad I'm in an Indonesian prison. It's so much better over here. I bet. Yeah. They're like, if I had gone to America, shit would have been...
Way worse. And he was like, this Indonesian prison has just given me the space to do better. And he was like, and that's all I want. He's like, I found God. He was like, I feel terrible about my decision. And this is when he opens up that he was going through his own things. And that's when he he tells that his girlfriend died right before he met Heather. And so he was dealing with his own shit.
So then they asked, so then she asked, how do you feel about Heather? Him and Heather broke up shortly after the trial, and he hates her. He said she is a black hole, and she messes up all things good. And she's like, do you think she'll kill again? He said, absolutely. And the biggest person in danger is Stella, their daughter that they have together. She's like, well, why do you say that? And he was like, I just feel like she's going to be neglectful or something's just going to, you know.
He was like, she needs help. And she she's obviously not learning from her mistakes. He feels like she is the same person that she has been. I was like, OK, so was she literally on drugs and alcohol? She says, I don't know about the drugs, but yes, she was on alcohol. I can hear her slurring the words when she would talk to Heather on speakerphone and I could hear her verbally abusing Heather. So he probably felt like he needed to give her some sort of protection. You know what I'm saying?
as a boyfriend right so they said was she violent and he was like I think they were violent to each other and he was like one time he saw her flip out and grab Heather by the hair and drag her around the house so I guess with Tommy's side I trust Tommy a little more because he's definitely feeling the regret and he's trying to make turn so if he says she's abusive I'm more inclined to believe it of course Sheila's whole family is like ain't no way in hell but you know if he's saying that
And that's what I also find interesting. Like, I have never heard from what's called a side of the family, from her daddy's side of the family, from her black side of the family. Because her daddy is black and it's always none of them. And it could be because maybe her mom was really protective. I mean, him not taking care of the kids. Like, that could be some very controlling behavior.
Shit, yeah. Because the police report, one of the police reports was from one of these ex-wives saying, I want this man to be a father and this woman, Sheila, is not allowing him to. He's got custody dates where he's supposed to come get his son and he's not getting his son. I try and take my son to his house and they turn off the lights and they lock the doors and they won't answer. It was like I call and Sheila blocks the call and Sheila tells me don't call here no more. But...
You know, I want him to be a son to her father. So she was definitely getting in the way. That's a whole police report right there. He inclines us to believe that she's telling the truth about the abuse, at least to a certain extent. And she goes on to ask him, you know, what happened the night of the murder? And he said, I made a terrible decision thinking if I killed Sheila, it would help the situation. I was just trying to do what was right to set things right. But I know now that that isn't our job. It's only God's job.
And he starts crying and he's like, I'd give my own life to undo it. And he's just so, so sorry.
And she was like, OK, well, you're up for parole in a few years. And he was like, at this point, I'm not even thinking about parole. He was like, I work with the church in here and I believe I'm in here serving my time and I want to serve my time. So he was like, I've already baptized about 50 people along with me and I'm just going to keep sitting here baptizing until my time is up. He was like, because I got to do it like he really means this shit.
And he's like, even if I can't get out early, he was like, I just want to do my time because I did a fucked up thing that I can never make up for. And so, yeah, I mean, he's he's working so hard to clean that blood off his hands. Like, and it ain't never going to definitely a difference between the two.
Yeah, definitely. So like Tazi said, he's still in prison to this day. Heather is also still in prison. She's not due for release until 2025. I read this article and I read this June 2019 article that came out with WGN9, which is like the Chicago news source that said that she could possibly get out in about 18 months from when that article was released. But I haven't seen that she's out yet.
um they at one point knocked a month off of her sentence as like a christmas gift to the prisoners the way they are in indonesia i mean i feel like if you are acting if you have if you have a wreck if you are doing well why would i not reward you reward you for doing well yeah you know i don't think that everything in that prison is is but we could definitely take notes
But I think we could definitely take notes. Absolutely. Stella is obviously older than two years old as of right now. And she is living in with a caretaker. They're Australian. It's some friend of Heather's. Yeah. And Heather plans on getting her back as soon as she is released. She also said that she does not. She says that she does not plan on coming back to America after she is released from prison. The estate is all settled. Okay.
It was settled privately. The only thing that I could see from the articles was that it was settled privately. Heather is glad that it's over and little Miss Stella is going to be well taken care of. Basically, her uncle didn't want her to have any money. So what they've settled is Heather now has access to none of it. And it all is in a trust for Stella that she can't access until she reaches the age of 30.
damn 30 y'all be really making these kids that's what i said yeah we really making these kids wait so that 11 million that heather just swore they up and down they were gonna get yeah it i ain't even seen no numbers match 11 it was about 1.3 million right you was way off right
So Tazi quickly mentioned during the trial about Robert Ryan Justin Bibbs and Robert Ryan Justin Bibbs with all of those names is the cousin of Tommy Schaefer who was kind of texting him hey bro sit on her or whatever and while he was talking his shit talking his shit got him caught up but since he wasn't in Bali talking his shit got him caught up in the American justice system and
Remember, America had nobody to prosecute for this crime except for him because the other ones were prosecuted in Indonesia. They sent Robert Ryan Justin Bibbs to court and Robert Ryan Justin Bibbs got nine years in prison for just a little bit of text messages. Just him talking shit.
Oh, man. And just got a whole conspiracy to murder charge. I would be so mad if my kinfolk had me set up like that. Like, ugh. And then even still, like, yes. Yes, Tommy has twice as much time. But he's also in that Indonesian. Well, I'm telling you, it looks pretty. They've got a fountain, nice grass. Like, they are not shackled or handcuffed. Alrighty, y'all. It's time for...
well i'm not black i'm oj i ain't do it but if i did this is how i get away with it okay so i got quite a few things first of all why are we texting why are we texting how also why did you fly all the way to bali with no plan no plan whatsoever you flew all the way to bali and had to go ask the front desk for some duct tape come on now
I would have had a plan, a full plan on how to get rid. And now also y'all are American. She was he was 21 at the time and she was 19. She was born in 95. So that means what she's like a two years younger than you, one year younger than I am. So you grew up in the 9-11 era. Why would you just leave a suspicious suitcase? No one is ever going to trust a suspicious suitcase anymore.
Especially not wrapped in duct tape and sheets and blood. Why? Why? A suitcase is always suspicious. Period. Okay, you're right. She definitely messed up by not having a plan. I believe the first part of that plan would be at least pretending to get along with my mother. And I would not have informed her that Tommy was there. Tommy would have never been there.
Like, Tommy would have came under a different name. I'm sure that hotel is big enough to where Tommy could have been there and not been there at the same time. He didn't even need his own room. I mean, but if you were going to go to the shitty motel, you should have had him at the shitty motel waiting for you. Under a different name, also, dumbasses. Yeah. Another thing...
They were very obvious with the way they ran out. I wouldn't even have done it in a hotel because they got them people going down the hall into the room. Like every time you step in and out of that room, your clock, there is no alibi. It's all on camera. What they should have did was went on some private adventure. If Indonesia is so rough and tough like they say it is and they're about to get caught by mobs, I would have found a mob man out there to set her mom up.
And I'm like, oh, mom, I've set up this tour for us. And then, phew. Yes. Got her. Oh, no, these people came after us. You know what I mean? Exactly. And just paid off somebody. I've just definitely wouldn't have happened in the hotel room, for sure. What else would I have changed? She definitely should have let Tommy out of it. I do agree with her video. In her video, she was saying that
Tommy she made sure that Tommy did it and she set Tommy up and I believe that because even the text messages was like well why don't you just do it well why don't you just come in here and do it you know what I'm saying or maybe we can why can't we suffocate her together she was definitely trying to because this is your mama this is your murder she bitched out on her murder if you're gonna bitch out on your murder then you don't need to do it right
And you putting somebody else's life on the line. I mean, I'm glad that he's doing well, but he probably would have been doing a-okay if he was back home, not in prison. Yeah. I just wish Tommy would have never got wrapped up in her. Because her mama think he the problem and it's probably all her. Because even still, she still doesn't look...
She's just... She really is enjoying her life. I've seen her... So her baby Stella was born with six fingers on her hand. I see her just walking out the prison. Oh, we're headed to an operation. She's got her glasses on. She's going to... Oh. She's fluent in that language. What do they speak? Indonesian or something else. She's fluent in the language they speak there. Living a very regular life. Yeah, I wouldn't... She loves it there. She doesn't plan on coming back. And I wouldn't either because...
I was thinking about this. Some people were like, well, she needs to come back into America and get tried in America. And I'm like, double jeopardy. Does it count when it's? No, because they actually said once she got arrested, the first thing they would do once she was released was press charges if available. So the thing was, the U.S. has to see if there's anything that they can.
can charge her for it. They cannot charge her for a murder that didn't happen on her land. The only thing they can think of is conspiracy because there were text messages between the two in America. Exactly. And so the only thing she would get conspiracy. So if they get her on that, they can get her on that and bring her into America for a little bit, but she'll do that little bit of time and head right back out, I'm sure, if she has the money. She don't got nothing now. Yeah. But yeah, it might not be all her choice. It might not be. All right, girl. Parole or no parole? Parole.
Parole Tommy, keep her. I agree. Ten years, she got a lucky break. She got that old rich white woman break. You go. Yeah. She did. And Tommy did not. But I feel like everybody paid more than she did. Like Robert Ryan Justin, he's stuck in America. Poor thing. Pull tank tank. Yo, man.
And didn't really do nothing. And didn't do nothing. And then Tommy, Tommy's got almost twice her sentence. Like, she really got the easy peasy side of the stick. She definitely set herself up. And so I guess she played it as best she could from where she was at. But, like, y'all can keep her. I don't feel like she's learning. I don't feel like she's growing. I just think she still has had it too easy. And she still thinks that she can get away with whatever. ♪♪
This was from Forever Keesh, and it says, five stars. Work plus y'all. Bye. They say, listening to this at work has been the best. Got in trouble for laughing at Taz's realness on the Moss murder for the cousin. LOL. Love y'all. Oh, the real ass nigga. Real ass. What's that? What's that, Marcus? He was the realest nigga in the room. Realest nigga in the room.
I feel like people come off of TikTok because I make the TikToks and they'd be like, but Tazzy is great. We're going to stay for her. It's all right. I understand. Yes. They come from me, but they stay for you. And I'm like, no, no. I bring them in the room. This is this is us in real life, too. I'd be like, Tazzy, these people are amazing. And Tazzy's like, OK, I decided I like them. We're going to go with Nisa the Scorpio because I'm also a Scorpio.
I told somebody, I said, I hate when people be like, what's your sign? Because I say Scorpio and then everybody groans like, oh. And I don't feel like other signs have to deal with that. Shit. As a tourist, I definitely get that. I get the hardest groan every time. Nobody has ever said, ooh, a Scorpio. It's always like, oh, God, a Scorpio.
It's titled, It Ain't Nothing Like a Black Womanly... They didn't say everything you put. I love true crime. The tea y'all spill is always scalding and insight from the black community about these women is relatable. Keep it up. We try. Will do, sis. We try, too. Will do. Thanks again for listening. Mariah, do we have any updates we need to plug first? No? We're back to a regularly scheduled program, right?
All right. So let's give these a... Where can I find us, friend? All righty. If you want to email us...
If you want to email us about anything, you want to just say, hey, you want to get some ad space, you can email us at sisterswhokillpodcast at gmail.com. If you want to find out what Tazzy's doing on Twitter, you can follow the Twitter at sisterswhokill, TikTok, sisterswhokillpodcast, Instagram, sisterswhokillpod, discussion group. Y'all been answering my questions. I see you. You got to answer all three of them, though. So make sure y'all join that as well. That's all I got.
Anything else, friend? Nope. Talk to us. We talk back. Peace. Bye. Bye.