Ep 152: Building Your Business Through Effective Storytelling with Krystle Church
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by Awesome Step, how using a podcast can and will grow your business. So grab a glass of wine and pop your headphones on because girlfriend happy hour has begun here on The B Word. Hey everyone, welcome back to The B Word. I am joined today by my guest Crystal Church.

Absolutely amazing story, which we're going to dive into in a little bit. We were just talking in the green room about how she and her partner actually just up and moved over to this little bitty island near the Maldives. So I'm having a little bit of FOMO. She just misses the fact that she can't get Amazon. And so she's got her own FOMO, but

Ultimately, the reason why we're diving into her story is because she's a copywriter. And we all know as podcasters that the art of copywriting is so important. So Crystal, welcome to the show. I cannot wait for this conversation.

I am so thrilled to be here. Thank you. Awesome. All right. So tell me how... First, let's just go back to the whole, like, I live on the islands thing. How did you and your partner decide to take that jump? Because I think a lot of times as entrepreneurs, it's a big enough leap for us to become entrepreneurs. And you did it and moved out of the country.

you know what? I feel like I always have some type of crazy idea that I'm presenting to my partner. And I usually find it on a blog. That's how I learned about copywriting. That's how I learned about Mauritius, the country island that we live on. I read a blog and I'm like, you know what? That sounds interesting. I wonder what that life is like. And I present it to him. And then he's like, wow, that's really out of left field. Usually says no. And then I harp on him some more and then

He comes around to the idea. But I will say that the choice to move here to a much more remote location, like you said, Amazon does not deliver here. There are no conferences. There is no like in-person networking. No DoorDash. It is a small,

No, ma'am. It is small island life. And we really craved that because we actually didn't move straight here from the States. Even though I'm from Portland, Oregon, we, before I started my business, had each a decade long career teaching in high profile international schools around the world.

So when we moved to Mauritius, we were actually living in Singapore at the time. I had already started my business and got my footing. And so this was just like another new decision that was separated from other large scale ones. So it was an isolated incident that allowed, I think, it to be an easier transition. But it's definitely definitely is still a huge failure.

feet moving countries, the logistics of everything, especially doing that as an entrepreneur. But I think the payoff is definitely worth it. I mean, just having that gut instinct that this is what we want to do and being able to follow through on it. Because I feel like whether it's moving countries or moving industries or taking that bet on yourself, for me, is something that

is what stops 80% of entrepreneurs from actually living that dream life that they want in their business because they think they're betting on themselves, but they're not really ready to take the big leap.

You hit the nail on the head there by saying that this is really about going for something when you don't feel ready for it. And I think that that is the strongest trait of an entrepreneur that goes the distance because the whole journey is just something that you don't know. Because every time you master something, a new host of problems you've never dealt with before comes up. That's kind of how I treat our life as well, just living internationally and moving abroad. It's

Something is always changing. You have to be really flexible. And it kind of just pushes me to be a better version and a more patient version of myself. Okay. So when you guys leave the island country, where are you going next?

We literally sat down and had this conversation yesterday. I have not announced anything yet because it's between two primary countries and we can't decide. It may possibly be Europe. That is taking like kind of over my mind at this moment in time. And I'm picturing some cobblestone streets.

some warm weather because that's so me and yeah, TBD on this, but we're going to be moving next year and start a whole new journey and new chapter of our lives. Well, you can't go wrong in my opinion in Europe. I big fan of London, huge fan of Italy. We've been in France like

With the exception of maybe Germany, not my favorite because I don't drink beer. I drink wine. So you just can't go wrong, girl. We used to live in Munich, actually. And yeah, I just spent the whole time just like taking vodka and putting it in my apple spritz that they would give me. Yeah.

So true. All right. So let's dive into you and your business and what you do now as a copywriter and the importance of storytelling, particularly as a podcaster.

So I'm a copywriter and I own a boutique copywriting agency. We really specialize in sales copy. And I think most of the time the industry looks at storytelling through the lens of content marketing, which is wonderful and absolutely necessary.

But I think that there's a huge missed opportunity to add more story selling into that content marketing and into other areas of your copy and your messaging, like your website, your sales pages, and like you mentioned, even your podcasts.

So storytelling, like really, we know it as an art form, right? It's been passed down from generations and generations, thousands and thousands of years. And when used correctly now, it can really just bring your brand to the forefront of your industry. So as a podcaster myself, and I'm wondering if you can relate to this,

Some of the episodes that I get the most feedback on, that I get the most inquiries from, that I get the most messages or reviews about are the ones where I have opened up personally myself or opened up and shared a story about somebody that I worked with, somebody that I know, even somebody completely outside the business world. But I was talking to, for example, I was talking to our cleaner yesterday and she was telling me that she's sitting on the fence of starting her own business.

And she is good. She is very good. We know she is a way better manager than the manager of the company that she's working for. It's something we've discussed a lot together. And we just sat down and we had a conversation. I said, what is stopping you? You know, what would propel you into this? And that's a conversation that if I took and I shared on my podcast, for example, with my listeners, it is a relatable moment that draws them in. And regardless of industry experience and where she is from,

If I'm speaking to other copywriters or service providers, everybody can relate to the feeling of, should I go all in? Should I do this? And it sparks this emotion within us that allows us to just relate and open up and feel more connected.

Yeah, I totally agree with you because podcasting in general, the reason why I shout it to the rooftops as the best marketing tool you can do for your brand or business is because it allows you that relatability with your potential client. It makes them feel as though they know you in a different way than social media does. And when you bring in those stories and you...

And especially I think when you're right, you hit it on the head. When you go outside of what your general topic and niche is occasionally, like it lets them see the behind the scenes of what's going on in your world and who you're talking to and who you're interacting with. And you just you become like a best friend that they've never met.

Yes, hands down. And I feel like there's just such a shift in the way that you get to sell outside of the podcast because the podcast is so much of a nurturing for you. Yeah, I agree. I agree 100%. All right. So what led you into this journey of copywriting and storytelling? And if you don't mind, I would really like for you to

unpack for our audience, the true difference between copywriting and storytelling, because I think of copywriting as like three sentences on my webpage, but storytelling is a little bit longer. So how do we look at the difference?

Yes. Oh, this is such a good question because storytelling is so much woven into the actual copy and the buyer's journey. So I'll get into that in a moment. But really how I started this career path was, like I mentioned, I had a decade of teaching experience working internationally. And before I started this career path, I was a teacher.

Before that, before I majored in education, I was actually majoring in journalism. I found it to be a little bit dry. I didn't have the type of creativity that I wanted. And I just knew the moment that I stepped foot into a classroom that that was the fulfillment, the impact, the connection with people that I really wanted. And...

Like all things, Crystal, I read about copywriting in a blog when Dale and I had been in a season of thinking about starting our own business, not quite sure what that was going to look like. And I had moved schools. I was teaching at a school in Singapore and I was actually placed in a...

a team that had had a lot of friction and a lot of issues, specifically with sexism in the years prior. And I was actually a higher maid to try to solve the problem and put a female onto the team to try to help fix that. Obviously we know putting somebody that is in the demographic that's being discriminated against to solve the problem isn't really going to address it at its root. So I was constantly standing up

for myself and other women in the department. And I felt like, A, I don't want to do this forever. I don't want to be in the politics. So much about teaching was really just about the policies, the paperwork, and not the actual face-to-face time with your students. And B, I saw a lot of women who didn't have a voice. And so when I read and learned about copywriting,

I just felt in my gut, this is a way that I can bring that writer that's always in me out and help women have a voice. And so that's what I did. I took the big leap, like many of us, just transitioning and starting an online brand. And I really just went full force into working with female powerhouses, mainly service providers in the online space, coaches and course creators who

want to stand out as themselves feel like there is no shame and they can be 100% them and attract that person that they feel so driven to work with. So it becomes this like cyclical nature to it. And that's really what I did kind of starting out solo and then building this boutique agency that we now have. Oh, fantastic.

Yeah. And to answer your second question about really how storytelling and copywriting differ, copywriting is in essence, everything that we see, everything that we have not only written, but also verbally in terms of our content, our brand presence. So yes, the pages on our website, the captions on your Instagram profile, the video scripts that you have in ads, all of it is copywriting.

Storytelling. Storytelling can be an isolated moment in a caption when you're talking to somebody or like we mentioned in a podcast episode. But true story selling, what you should be doing in your copy and your messaging should be woven throughout your entire brand message. So for example, somebody lands on your website and they immediately get drawn in by whatever a hooky caption...

you have at the start of your heading, they're going through the page and you're nurturing them through phases of awareness with story. Story doesn't always mean that you're saying,

oh, this is my journey, how I started. These are the tribulations, the trials that I went through, what happened, the climax and the resolution. That is a great example of a story that you could pull out of your about page, for example. Most of the time, our storytelling is going to be story reflected to our reader about where they are. So connecting with them on the level of

what it's like to sit in their shoes right now. And this goes way deeper than just talking about pains or challenges, but actually sitting there and painting a hyper-specific image of what their life is like

at this very moment in time. So what are they facing on a day-to-day basis? Do you have a busy mom right now who's running her own business? She's got a baby on one hip. She's trying to drink her chai latte in one hand while she's messaging her team on Slack, trying to get them to take some tasks and help them set them up for success for today. Is that the reality she's living right now? Then you want to reflect that back on the page and literally say exactly that.

Like I see you right now, basically, and connecting with them and telling their story to them. And when you can do that, when you can tell somebody their own story,

they're reading it, wondering how you know them so well, feeling like this has got to be their person with the right solution to solve whatever problem you are there to solve for them. So that's where we really blend into what is story selling, when you're able to tell stories in a way that helps sell in a persuasive, soft manner. I love everything about this. And

I think the struggle for so many of us and correct me if I'm wrong is it doesn't come naturally. It is a skill that has to be honed and practiced. You know, it's like going to the gym, you start out with five pound weights and then you can work up to 10 and then all of a sudden you're, you know, whatever, 25, 30 pound weights, but

You have to keep doing the reps and put in the work to make that natural. And I think that's the disconnect between a lot of podcasters, especially is we're great talkers. I mean, let's be honest, podcasters got to talk. That's just what we do. But sometimes that art of storytelling is what prevents us from growing the podcast into something with a bigger audience because we're just not, we haven't honed that piece yet.

Yes. And you know why you bring up a really good point? Because as podcasters, I think it's really hard to sometimes picture the listener who's on the other side with their AirPods and hearing your words right now. Because yes, we all have, you know, an avatar and

the imagined person that we're creating the podcast for in the first place. But a lot of podcasts really attract a range of people and listeners. And so this comes back to really the fundamentals of all of your marketing and knowing your customer, knowing your audience and who's listening and thinking, what do they need to hear today? Do they need a step-by-step how-to of this strategy or do they need me to sit down and relate to them?

you know? And I think having that balance, that's what I try to do a lot is have a balance between, you know, talking about things like this and this strategy and different methods and how to step by step. That's really tangible. Somebody can take ideas and walk away and implement with them. But then also sitting down and having relatable stories that just open you up to be a bit more vulnerable. And a lot of,

I think are afraid of being vulnerable because we're afraid that somebody might see us as less qualified to teach them as less qualified in experience or skills or if, oh, well, if they see me having these struggles, then why would they trust me to help them? And I think in fact, the reverse is true, right? It's like, if somebody sees those things, they're more likely to lean into you and feel like they can relate to you. Oh, I agree so much. And I tell women all the time,

all the time. I'm like, listen, your message doesn't have to be perfect. It is perfect for someone. Yes. So many of us are perfectionists. And so you're right. If we don't feel that we're the right person to be educating or helping or coaching or guiding or giving that relatability piece of insight, you know, I think that that really

is also part of what stops some female podcasters, especially. I don't know. I am being generic here. I feel like the men, they're like, whatever. I'm just going to get out there and blast it all out. And it's totally fine. For whatever reason, we are more reserved as the female population. And so we have to be coached and guided and given permission to just get vulnerable and tell your story.

Yeah. Well, and I think that's also a gift of being a woman, right? It's like we might be more, not always, but we might be more inclined than some men to be more vulnerable and open up in that way. Oh, it makes so powerful. All right. So on a day to day in the life of crystal, you know, what does it look like for you? Island life aside in the business world of copywriting? Yeah.

So we've really got two sides to the business. We've got the Casey Copy Studio, and I'll take like sort of a week at a glance because I balance these two sides. The second being the coaching and education arm of the business where I mentor copywriters in growing their businesses.

So in the copy studio, I really sit down in depth at the beginning of the week for any new projects that we're doing. So with our junior copywriters, with our clients, we get into the weeds a lot with basically the foundation of the messaging. So that'll include story, the ideal client, the research that we go into. And that really forms a foundation of everything that we've talked about is necessary for storytelling and connecting with people.

And then I work closely every single day with my coaching clients. So I'm in our community answering questions, talking to them one-on-one, and then hosting our actual trainings and masterclasses within that program. And you would see if you're a fly on the wall, me really just prioritizing our clients and

first and foremost. So we have a small, lean, tight-knit team. I love that so much. And it allows us to get really good and hyper-specific on how we serve our clients, both in the studio and our programs, and really just pour into them first. And then the next layer out is really sitting down and being there for our audience, like

Podcasting is a huge piece of my schedule. So a ton of time going into podcasting. And of course, email as a copywriter is one of my go-tos. So if I'm not working with our clients, I'm creating content for our audience pretty much. All right. So of course, I have to loop her into the podcasting piece. Let's talk about your podcast, what it has done to grow your business, and what you really think of it as the arm of your marketing strategy.

You know, it's funny because I was speaking to my partner Dale about this last week. And I said, as we have one of our coaching clients is launching a podcast. And I said to him, you know what? I started this podcast not knowing what it was going to be and not knowing what it was going to come out of it. And I'm really grateful that I did. But now hindsight, I can see just how much of an impact it can have. And like you said at the beginning of this conversation, how powerful podcasting is for women running businesses and to connect with people.

So Freedom Found podcast is a podcast all around entrepreneurship and of course, marketing. So you're going to get the marketing, the copywriting goodness. And then also I share just a lot about entrepreneurship, staying motivated, getting inspired and really just shifting your mindset. And I have seen those conversations that I've had on the podcast really translate into direct sales. I had a DM from somebody yesterday who heard me mention working one-on-one with a client on the podcast episode that came out this week.

asking to work with me for a micro example. It really just created a bridge between content created and then clients connecting perspective and new clients connecting with us. And I can't even tell you how much revenue it has brought in in the last several years, but tons, uncountable amounts of revenue. I feel like most of the sales calls that I sit on

people mention I've listened to every episode or I just spent your podcast or I just found it like on a regular basis. So you probably find the same thing. It's like constantly top of mind for prospective clients. Yeah. And we actually just launched podcast her, the network, which is a network of female hosted podcast because the question that I get the most from people is how do I make my podcast make money?

And that mindset shift I take them through of it's not about sponsored ads. Stop looking at the, oh, someone needs to pay me to podcast and start looking at as if you had an ROI line item on your profit and loss statement,

For marketing, how much of that should be dedicated to podcasting? Because you're right. So many of your future clients are listening to you over their AirPods, YouTube, streaming, and making the internal decision that when it's time, I'm going to call her and work with her. Absolutely. Congratulations on launching that. Oh, that lead really did come from the podcast. Yeah.

Yes. Well, and I think that that's why it's so important to make sure that you're asking those questions on sales calls or in your inquiry forms, like actually start tracking and looking at the metrics. Where are people coming from? And what I have found is people either find the podcast somehow, then

Yeah.

Yeah. I like to say that, you know, your Instagram presence is kind of like the welcome mat into your world. And then they're going to do one of two things. They're either going to go to your website and binge everything on your website, or they're going to go straight to the podcast. But if they go to the website, they're probably still going to end up on the podcast. So we're all going to end up in the living room of your podcast, having conversations. And that's where they make that buying decision because that's where they began to trust, you know, you like you all the things.

Whether they're ready, right, whether they even know in their brain right now, I need copywriting. But if they're listening to you or they've been listening to you or they've been introduced to you, then when they realize they need it, they're going to think, oh, I listened to this girl on a podcast and they're going to go back and find it.

Yes, exactly. And I do that myself. Like I'm a podcaster and I'm such an obsessed podcast listener. Like I have a note section in my phone that's just episodes that I'm like, this was so good. And I know the first turnaround, I didn't get everything out of it that I can. I'm going to go back and listen a second time when I need information on X or Y topic. Awesome. I love that. I can't wait to listen to your podcast.

Oh, you're so sweet. Well, I love listening to yours and just like the energy that you bring to it and just continuing to have the conversation around podcasting. Because I think what I see is a lot of people talk about starting a podcast, especially coaches will help their clients say, oh yeah, you should start a podcast. And then the conversation kind of goes away. So in order to be a good podcaster, well, this is my experience. You tell me what you think.

you have to constantly be evolving and thinking about how are you going to show up to be the best you on the podcast? For me, I've spent a lot of time in the last year learning about how to develop speaking skills and connect with the audience and even our topic on storytelling. How can I show up and create content there in a better way that I don't see a lot of

people talking about because it's just like, start it and then the conversation is over. Oh my gosh, that's such a great lead in into exactly why I do what I do is when... So I came out of real estate and I started the podcast on a whim during COVID. Let me teach real estate agents how to be better agents because I was really good at doing that and then fell in love with teaching and communicating and relating through the podcast. And it evolved into Female Entrepreneurship

The reason I shifted finally into really teaching those nuances of how to use the podcast is, I mean, I think I signed up for six digital courses on how to start a podcast. And I did them all because every one of them had a little bit something else that I picked up a little tip or trick or something I didn't know about that the other digital course didn't show me. But then it was like, what now?

No one was really teaching you, okay, now what? I could find a lot of YouTubes or other podcasts on great tactics on microphones or how to do this, but no one was diving into the, why is it so powerful and how do you make it powerful for you? And I was like, oh my God, that's what I have to do for people because holy crap, it's a minefield of projecting your business to the next level.

It absolutely is. I love that story for you too. And how you, you have no idea how one thing you're going to jump into. Like I'm going to learn how to podcast and educate realtors becomes then the jumping off point for an entirely new experience and trajectory of how to impact even more people. And it's messy. Like when you pivot, it's messy and you, it's a

You know, it's kind of a mind bug. Like you have to be able to say, oh my gosh, did I do the right thing? But the more and more I get into it, I'm sure the same is for you. You know, deep in your gut, like, yeah, this is totally where I'm meant to be because look at the impact I'm having. Yes, absolutely. And I think too, like podcasting is a lot of work. And so it's easy to sit and say, you know, in the first

let's say 50 episodes or first year being like, wow, this is a lot of work. Is this worth it? But it pays off and you just have to sit in that state of continuing to learn and develop it. And like you said, it becomes that beautiful journey that really translates into so much growth for your business.

And I think for me, it's one of those things that it was probably not as hard to figure out all the work because I came out of real estate. And let's be honest, they're actually really similar. So almost anyone can get a real estate license here in the States.

There's really no barrier to entry to opening up a podcast either. So anyone can do it. The hard part comes later in the now, how do I make it work and how to be consistent? So it's no different in my mind, whether it's a microphone or whether it's selling and finding clients for real estate. I had to figure out an industry that is the wild, wild west because no one's really regulating it and no one's telling you what to do after they tell you how to start it.

Mm-hmm. That's so true. I bet copywriting is pretty similar, right? It is. Yeah. It's all that journey of there is nobody regulating this. How am I going to self-regulate? How am I going to connect with people to learn how I should do that? You know, I think that there, it's like the wild, wild west. You know, there are a lot of different approaches in terms of how people price, how people work with their clients, how people market themselves. There are a lot of

ethical, unethical practices out there. And so if you can become a beacon for yourself and then potentially others like you have with the podcast and I have with copywriting, I think that you're sitting in a really golden place within an industry that is unregulated and doesn't have those norms. And it allows you to stand out even more in your industry as well. All right. So last question, and then we'll kind of loop this up, but

AI or not AI? What are your thoughts? Ooh, great question. It depends on the context. In the copywriting world. In the copywriting space. Look, I was talking to some copywriters in a Facebook group for copywriters this morning who were saying, is AI the reason this has been a slow year for a lot of copywriters? And I said to them, in my experience, I coach a lot of copywriters.

I have had only two who have lost only one client each from AI this year. The majority of what's happening in the copywriting industry and other service-led industries online is, in my opinion...

based on whom I'm working with and what their pushback has been is more so like hesitancy in the online marketplace. A lot of people were burned in the last few years. There was a huge influx of people working online. Like we literally just talked about wild west, no regulations. You know, there was a lot of distrust and then a lot of talk about economy and people tightening up their purse strings. So...

While I think that AI gets a bad rap with copywriting, I think it is such a beautiful tool and brings so much potential for what we can do. We currently don't use AI to assist on any client projects or anything like that within the business because, to be honest, it's not quite there yet. You know, there are some great things that we can do and we use a

of AI within our internal operations in the business to help make our own operations more efficient and effective. But when it comes to writing copy, you need a solid foundation of in-depth market research, voice of customer research, serving, interviewing your actual audience, literal people sitting on Zoom with them and talking to literal humans.

to then develop a messaging strategy that works. And perhaps one day AI can do that grunt work for us, but right now it's just not there. And so I think that we should be using AI to ease our responsibilities as much as possible. And it's basically leveled the playing field

from companies who could afford to pay more employees. And it's allowed us to now run leaner, more efficient teams using AI, doing things that we wouldn't be able to do in the past. But in terms of the writing side, I really think that you need a heavy hand in it and you can use AI writing tools, but still go in with your own eyes. Still make sure it's in

the voice and portraying the message that you really want it to, to affect your end reader with the desired action, emotion outcome that you want to have with it. So yes, but we still need some time. I'm excited to see like next year when they release the, or is it 2025 release the next chat GPT version, what that's going to really look like and where it's going to take us going forward. Absolutely. All right, Crystal, this has been amazing. You are absolutely lovely. What,

What can we do to amplify you and your business? And how can our audience find you easiest?

Oh, you are so sweet. This has been such a gift to talk to you. So thank you so much. If you want to connect with me, come and say hi. I am on Instagram. I'm in stories every day and in my DMs, and I just love to hear from you. So my handle is at crystal.church. My spelling is K-R-Y-S-T-L-E. So crystal.church. And you can also connect with me and listen to my podcast, Freedom Found Podcast. And my website is crystalchurch.com.

It was the E at the end of crystal that threw me off. I was like, yes, crystal. It's usually a L we are L E. Thank you, mom. All right, guys, as always, listen, it is your business. Take it, grow it and put a microphone on it to scale it. And I will see you same time, same place next week.

You just finished another episode of the V Word podcast. Cheers to you. If I were with you, I would literally pop a big old bottle of Prosecco and pour you a glass. Since I'm not, why don't you do the next best thing and share this episode with one of your besties? Because we all know you've got that one girlfriend that needs to hear it. Thanks, friends.

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