How I Used Venmo for Fraud, Built a $30M Crypto Empire on Lies & Avoided Prison | Ray Trapani
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Ray, welcome to Locked In, man. We've been talking about doing this for almost a year now since I think you followed me. I followed you. I forgot what went down, but that was like the night before your documentary was going to come out on Netflix. Yeah, man. It's definitely been a while. I remember seeing you because I've had to always watch you and Johnny and a bunch of you guys just like, oh, I'll definitely try to get on these podcasts sooner or later, but then I

Doing the whole content thing always felt a little funky to me, and then I just locked in on business and went back to grinding. But yeah, no, I enjoy doing the podcast. I got to start locking in more and doing more. Yeah, I give you credit. When your doc came out, you had everything lined up.

Like you're going on pods. Like I had a doc come out on HBO years ago and I wasn't prepared for any of it. Like I didn't really have anything. I just had my Instagram. And you had everything like from management, website, everything like locked in. And then you had like interviews lined up and whatnot. So I gave you props for that. The funny thing is, is like I feel like I was I was thinking about having like

a bunch of content to roll out after the documentary came out and I didn't have that like I was like oh I should have all this stuff ready and then it's like you don't know really where to go with it because no one knows you yet so you can't like drop it because I like before the doc came out I had really like no social media presence at all like I just had like a private like page with my family and stuff like that um so yeah I mean I I felt like underprepared

but then I just like kind of was just hitting everybody up. Yeah. And yours is cool. Cause it was a standalone doc. Like Netflix is very picky and choosy with who they do. Um, and you had like the feature that was like the first one they dropped at the year, right? Yeah. It was like the, I forget what it's called where it's like Netflix feature. It's like where they funded it. It's not like funded by a different source. Like they fund the whole thing. So like they put a decent amount of money behind it, which was like, uh,

what I guess made it good, even though, you know, I have different mixed feelings about it. Yeah. And that's what we're here today for, for you to, you know, share your side of the story from your own word words, because, you know, I know how the documentary game goes. It's now, and we were just talking about this earlier. It's never like what the actual documentary is like, and it's pretty much just based on the opinions of like the directors and the producers. That's kind of like how it shapes throughout it. Yeah, for sure. Yeah.

Yeah, I mean, that's like, and the crazy thing is like they had showed me a cut of the doc.

Like, the original cut, which was, like, more the director's focus. So then they take that doc and then they send it to, like, a group of a few hundred people that are able to watch it early. And then they basically give their ratings. And, like, basically, like, the biggest thing that they said was that, like, it was, it made me look, it lionized me too much. And then, so then they took that and then they never showed me the new cut until it came out. So, like, there was basically, like, an older cut that, like, probably wasn't as, like, demonizing as,

that they didn't use and then they you know just had to like use whatever because like they didn't want people saying like you're giving this guy a platform or you're lionizing this person yeah there's a lot of inconsistencies like across documentaries I mean you look at Anna Delvey they kind of made it seem like cool and hip what she was doing but then like the male counterparts to it are all

are always kind of like come off as really bad. And I just think it should be fair across the board because you have someone like Anna who's doing like Dancing with the Stars and all of these things, which is, you know, great, good for her that she's getting the second chance, but you're not giving the same treatment to...

to her counterparts that were in the same shoes, you know? And she's very open that she scammed people. That was very intentional. Yeah, not for sure. I see, I seen, it's funny that she's on Dancing with the Stars. Like even that, I was like, and she still has an ankle bracelet on. I don't really even understand what's going on with her case.

Yeah, she's in like immigration. She just got kicked off Dancing with the Stars. Oh, she lost? Yeah. Have you been asked to do like a lot of reality TV shows at all or anything? Yeah. Like the casting agents? Yeah, a couple. I just turned them down. I'm not going on reality TV. You have to look for it though. I could see you on that. Yeah, it would just be like...

like i don't know i mean especially like having a family it's not like the move it'd be different if i was like a single guy able to go on there and like just kind of flirt and be funny in that way but like you know you can't really do that like you know i have a family so i can't really be like the i think you have to present as like this person to make it in reality tv i know i feel like it also like kind of um

takes away the, like the character that was built out already by going on like reality TV. It's almost like a step down in like a cheesy, cheesy way. Yeah. And some people do make it on reality TV and blow up, but then it's also like, what's next. It's hard to kind of find your footing. Uh, so we're on long Island right now in your office. Um,

And you have the Sentra sign there. You're not still operating Sentra. Is that the original from your original? This is from the dock. That they made just for it? Or was that from like back in the day? No, they made like all like...

It's the same things that were like in the office. So they just took those things and basically recreated them. Okay. But it's not like the actual from the office. And you've created a new company or you're working for someone. Do you want to plug that in at all? No, I probably, I mean, my brother's company is Trapani Enterprises. But yeah, I mean, essentially we just do like cryptocurrency consulting and advising and

And just like different type of promotions for crypto companies. Awesome. And you grow up here on Long Island? Yeah, I grew up in Long Island and like Atlantic Beach, which is like, I don't know, this is considered North Shore, I think. Right.

Um, so I don't know which one's North or South shore, but it's just like essentially like right next to far Rockaway on the beach, good neighborhood to grow up in. And wealthy family, middle-class, lower class. What was that dynamic? Um, like my dad left before I was born and my mom was like an ICU nurse. Um, so like we were like lower middle class. Um, and then my mom like remarried to like air traffic controller and, um,

he was able to like get us like in a decent like a better house so like it's like a shitty big house um with just like five boys and just like two people that were working 24 7 and um when like when when your mom was busy at work and stuff because it was just her um did you like have a close connection with her and your brothers at all yeah i mean me and my brother's like um

Like my younger brother, Joe, wasn't around because he's much younger. But like my two older brothers, I was super close with. And then we had two stepbrothers. And that's like there's a whole story behind that that I've shared, like in other platforms with like one of them, like sexually abusing me and that that whole thing. Like when I was like eight, he was probably like 15 or whatever he was.

So that like kind of fucked a lot of things up. So then by like 16, I moved out and got my own place. How important do you think what you went through as a child and just that dynamic of growing up affected the decisions you would make later on? So like I was already selling like weed at like 13, 14 because like my older brothers were selling weed. So like I was like already ready to kind of

i don't know it was just like i was working on the beach everybody was smoking weed i was smoking weed uh my best friend was like one of the main weed dealers in long island so like he just would like give us like half ounce of weed ounce of weed like yeah just like go do whatever do it with it and um so like going from that and then like the sexual abuse stuff happened and i always thought like my family knew about it but was never doing anything so like i was kind of like it's like me against the world attitudes from very little

um and i just saw like crime essentially or like wheat selling weed is like not even a crime but um well back then it was yeah yeah yeah no it was definitely like i saw crime as like my way to be able to like kind of shape my own world right um i was also like playing like not high stakes poker but like for a 14 year old to be playing like in a 500 poker game um

was like a big game. So like, I was just like kind of mixed in with like this underworld crowd from so young. Would you have considered yourself, you know, an entrepreneur back then, or were you doing it to kind of to fit in and be cool? Or are you motivated by money? What, what's kind of like your headspace back then? I don't think you view yourself as anything. Um,

I did notice like I was better at it than others. Like other people would just like buy their weed, smoke all their weed. Like I went from like my first summer selling weed. I remember I was like, it was either like eighth grade going into ninth grade or ninth grade going to 10th grade. I made like 10 grand in a summer, which was like crazy money. And I was like, oh, all right, like I can do this. And then.

So like I knew like I was like good at essentially business because like if anybody knows that sold drugs It's like same thing as a business. It's just you know illegal And then like what happened was like at like 16 I got in a bad car accident and essentially like my whole face got chopped into pieces got bit like I had like patches on my eyes and shit, but then I got like a lawsuit for like 70k and I took that money and just was like, all right, I'm moving out and

So I moved out at 16 and I got like my grandfather to like co-sign the apartment because he just I don't know how I even convinced somebody to co-sign an apartment at 16. But my first thought was like, all right, like I'm going to transition from like selling weed to selling coke. And like I bought like 10 ounces of coke, which is an insane amount of coke to like start off with.

And I remember just like not knowing like even how to like bag it, like weigh it, like what's like the denominations, you know what I mean? Because I never did coke. But I was like I'd rather sell coke because like I never do it than sell weed because like I like to smoke or like sell Roxy's because –

Or so Roxie's annex any that type of stuff because I like enjoy doing pills So I'm gonna sell coke and make that like my main business But then like bagging up 10 ounces of coke at like 16 years old with no gloves Nothing like by the time like you're like halfway through your whole face is not me like what is going on? I didn't even know That was like an experience in itself. Do you think that that scene right there would contribute to like later drug use or um, I

so like i think no matter what like even the first person like who like uh like sexually abused me also introduced me to weed at like 12. um and then my other brother like gave me xanax at like 13. so i was kind of already just like on a path of doing drugs no matter what um and then the car accident was like peak opiate epidemic and they prescribed like 120 oxycodone at 16 years old so

There's just so many factors that just like kind of led into doing drugs as far as like also doing drugs and selling drugs and then plus having just like no guidance at all. How would you have described yourself back then? Were you a nice guy? Were you, you know, mean, cocky? You're making money. I was definitely like a pretty boy. I was super skinny. Yeah.

But then, like, I hung out with, like, a lot of hood kids. So, like, I was, like, the untouchable white kid that, like, would hang out with all hood kids. I could never fight. Like, I was always super pussy, like, as far as, like, getting in a fight myself. But, like, all my friends would kind of just do all my dirty work. And I was, like, the money guy. And...

I feel like I like was definitely like more popular than most kids, you know Like there was always like the bad kids who were popular then there's like the jock kids We were just like the popular like bad kids essentially Did you ever think about why you wanted to be that type of kid? Did I ever think about it? Especially back then? Yeah No, I was just kind of going with the flow and like enjoying it, you know, like enjoying the moment I don't I think

Like you just try to find your way, especially at like a young age with no guidance. And that's just like the way that found me. Was there something your mom or any parent figure could have done to kind of help prevent you from going down that path? Or do you think that was inevitable? Yeah, for sure. Like I think if you have both parents around and some sort of discipline at a young age and someone to tell you like what's right and wrong.

Um, you definitely could avoid those things. Um, you know, there's a lot of different factors and nuance that conversation because, you know, like the opioid epidemic, people weren't talking about how bad it would be or how bad it was then. Um, selling, selling weed or smoking weed just felt harmless. Like my mom was working 60 hours a week in the ICU with five boys in the house and a stepfather that did nothing just like would go and fucking, um,

work and then just disappear so it's very hard for her to have guidance like to give guidance by herself when she's like oh whatever my boys are smoking pot i smoked pot as a kid um you know uh

I don't think like there's anybody to blame, but I do think that like having both parents home and understanding like what's going on in modern times and paying it like deep attention, at least like that's what I try to do with my kids. Even though they're so young, I think you could have, you know, more guidance and just be there. Essentially, like the father being there is very important. Yeah. Do you kind of reflect back on your childhood when you're raising your kids? And do you think about that?

yeah, I think the biggest thing is just like as a father to be there and be like disciplinary, um, and make sure your kids like know that there's repercussions to like bad actions. Yeah. So high school, do you finish high school? Do you go off to college? What happens next? No, I, I basically dropped like, uh, I never like dropped out. I just still went, but I got one credit all through high school and basically got my GED like my senior year. Um,

I've been to college classes, but just sporadically, I went to Nassau for a little bit. And then when I first got arrested this time around, I went and got a couple credits just for shits and giggles to get out of the house because I was on house arrest. But no, I never really went to college for education purposes.

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So the drug business you were operating in high school, when does that kind of stop and you move on to something else? So I was selling Oxycontin and then like that's like when I first figured out about like someone like was trying to buy oxys and just was like, yo, I have this prescription pad. And with that prescription pad, I like figured out a way I got this like Orthodox Jewish kid to like fill it out. And we just sent like this one fiend to go like fill it and it worked.

So like we that was like my first fraud charge was just like I ran like a ring of prescription fraud and we filled like hundreds of scripts, which was like a great business. That was like the most money I ever made, like in my younger ages, because like each each hundred and twenty oxys they sell for like 20 a pop on the street. You do that like with a few pads. You know, it's a good amount of money.

So like at that time, like I just had like insane amount of money and then just like unlimited pills, just like sitting in my freezer to like re up on more money. I was waking up sniffing seven Oxycontin, probably doing like 20 plus Oxycontin 30s a day. So like that was just like a like a bad like I was like bound to die sooner or later, just like at that pace. And then like sooner or later, got arrested for that, went broke,

Started doing heroin and I started like hanging out with like a lot of gang members At first like I was running with like the Bloods I was running with like the Bloods and just kind of just doing stupid shit just mostly drug dealing like I'm one one of my blood friends that was like the leader of the Bloods in Long Island he moved into my house and

i remember like the first day he was like like i woke up and like he was like cooking on the stove i'm like oh what are you cooking he's like cooking crack like a little you know like the little pot like the little pan i was like all right um and then sooner or later that went left and then i started hanging out with like all the crip kids and like you know like as a kid like with no guidance i was still always trying to find my way right like i was literally wearing like a red bandana then i was wearing like a blue bandana like just like an idiot um

So, um, I think that's just like, I was just like on a path of destruction forever, like with no guidance, no one to stop me. And I was always just like smart enough to make enough money where no one can say shit to me, which was like, uh, not a good thing, right? Like I needed someone to, and then like, if I went to jail, my family would show up and help me out and help me get out. So like, I never was able to like have enough repercussion to stop.

Did you ever actually join those gangs or you were just kind of like an associate? Yeah. I mean, like, no, I never like joined the gang. There's no like I was never like jumped in or anything like that. It was just like the leader of the Crips was like my close friend. And we just would do like stupid shit together, like, you know, you know, whatever crimes we were committing at that time. And was it normal to have like a white person around those types of gangs? Yeah.

I know it's more common now, but back then... I was always very ghetto. Like, as a kid, I was super ghetto. Like, I would wear, like, the baggy shirts, baggy clothes. Yeah, I mean, I was probably, like, the one white kid. On the blood side, he was white also. Like, the one kid running the bloods in Long Island, he was, like, a white kid. But, yeah, I think...

I think like who I was was probably not like as fitting, but I kind of just always fit in with like any crowd I am. I'm a little bit of like a chameleon in that way. You can throw me in like a crowd of like hood kids, a crowd of surfer kids, any crowd. And I kind of just like find my way and find the people that I like. And I'm sure that helped later on as you start your next business and whatnot and get investors and all of that type.

Yeah, for sure. It still like helps me still to this day, right? Like even in legitimate business, you have to be able to adapt and like kind of get along with any type of person you speak to. You'll find like a lot in life. Some people are just so hard to speak to. So the prescription fraud, did you get arrested by the state or the feds for that? It was a state charge, but I only ended up getting charged with like the prescriptions that I personally filled.

so it was only like i didn't get charged with like a conspiracy charge it was just like they arrested every single person that filled the scripts and i got like two counts of prescription fraud and did he flip on anyone or that was just no at that time like people always like say that like oh like um he ratted on people back in the day

That was like all made up in the doc. They have a kid in there who like says like I ratted on him. I know it was like my friend when I was a little kid. I never read on that kid. Like I would like I cooperated in this case. I have no problem saying if I cooperated against you, whatever. But that's just like a made up story. I they never like asked me to cooperate. You know, I mean, like sometimes they're not like coming to you, especially if they think you're like the main guy.

They're not going to like even ask you to cooperate. Yeah. And you seem pretty kind of low level on that whole scheme overall. Yeah. I mean, it just like it never like went that far. Right. Like it was just like two pads or three pads that were filled and it was just like a bunch of crackheads. We're all doing drugs and we all filled scripts. So it was never like they like even though I was giving half of the prescriptions to the person who was filling and taking the other half and I was like leading the charge.

They never charged me with like the conspiracy aspect of it. So it was just charged with like the actual scripts that I filled. And how did that case get concluded? I got like drug court and I just basically stayed sober for a few years, went through drug court. And then that got, you know, essentially, I think, wiped off my record. So it never got used against you in your current case? No. The only the only thing that got used against me in my current case was, I think, a perjury charge.

which was for like the main kid in my case, the Indian kid. I went and lied for him on the stand for like one of his DWI cases. But that was like during the cryptocurrency charge. Like we had that company and he was like facing his 10th DWI here in New York. And he's like, yo, I'm going to take it to trial and I want to try to fight it. So he didn't lose his license. I'm like, all right, bet. You know, like that was just like always me. Like I was kind of just like, fuck it. Like whatever, what do I got to do?

And flew to New York and like went to like the restaurant where he was and like kind of scoped it out to have my story correct. The crazy part was like his lawyer was like coaching me through lying on the stand.

Yeah. There's a lot of shady stuff in that type of thing. All right. So you get sober after getting popped with that. You're sober for a few years. Where do you go next? And this is like early 20s, right? Yeah. Yeah. Early 20s, maybe like 1920, that type of age. And for a while there, I'm just like doing drugs and like low level drug dealing. And like I after like my

because i was so known for having so many prescriptions i just started like robbing people i would be like yo give me money i'll go get your prescriptions and i was just like taking their money and just going buying drugs and doing drugs for like years i kind of did that and that's why like i was known like as like a real scumbag in my town uh rightfully so right like i was just like stealing other drug dealers other drug addicts money and just kind of um running away and uh so like that that went on for a while

and then i was like i'm trying to think and then like i was like all right i gotta try to like sober up here and do the right thing and i started working in construction my grandfather got me a union book and i i um like i got a job i was working at like the world trade center i was like trying to do the right thing and it's just like i was just such a drug addict that was really my big thing was um

I can never just like keep a regular job because there just was never enough to fund my habit. Like even when I was, um, working in construction, I'd be like every weekend I would just take my paycheck and then drive up to AC, but like I'd buy a bunch of Roxies or heroin, drive up to AC and just like gamble all weekend, trying to make more money. Most of the time lose, you know, and then just drive back all depressed. And, um, you know, it could never really figure it out. Um,

And then it wasn't until like, I was like, all right, fuck it. Like, I'm going to move to Florida. Like what happened was trying to think what made me move to Florida. I think what it was is like, I robbed some gang member. He was like some big gang member. I just like took his money to go buy like some pills or, or basically, I think he actually gave me a prescription, like a bunch of rocks or he gave me the money to buy a bunch of pills. And then I like went to the casino and,

And I think the first time I won money. So I was like, oh, I can't get the pills. Gave him his money back. And like a week later, I'm like, yo, I can get the pills. Give me the money. And I lost all the money. And I was like, all right, this guy's going to kill me for sure. He's like, this is like the most fucking scary gang I've ever dealt with. And I just like fucking flew to Florida and stayed with my boy. And like, that's like kind of it was like at that point. And then I'm trying to think like, oh, when I was down in Florida visiting my boy, I was

I was just, like, sitting there with him, like, smoking a blunt on the balcony. And that's, like, when I figured out about, like, the Vemo thing. And, like, it's crazy. Like, people think that was, like, such, like, a thought-out plan, the Vemo scam. I was literally just, like, trying things. Like, I downloaded a cash app. I downloaded Vemo. Downloading different apps, like, trying to figure out a way to make money. And then just, like, fucking I sent money on Vemo with, like, I had no money in my bank account. And it went through. And I don't know, like, how Vemo works.

didn't like pick up on that faster but it was it was crazy like all that would happen is say i would send you like three thousand dollars that was like the max um essentially like your account would go negative three thousand and then it would just bounce so like and you get charged like a overdraft fee but or like whatever it is it's not considered overdraft because it doesn't actually charge your account um

or like a bounce fee, you know what I mean? And then Venmo like fronts the money on the other end. And then that person can cash that money out. So with that, like we just basically did that once. And then we found another person to do that again. We're like, all right, like let's, let's run this. Right. Like, uh, it seemed too easy. And we just started finding like hundreds of people to basically do like a Venmo transaction. We'd give them a cut of it. And then, um,

That made us a bunch of money, and we just kind of parlayed that Venmo money into buying our first car. I got basically someone to put it on their credit, and I put all the down payments down. And that was how we started Miami Exotics, was just because the Venmo scheme led into that. Yeah, and with Venmo, I think that the loophole there was that they wouldn't take the money to the person you sent. So if you sent $2,000, you didn't have it, but you sent it to that recipient,

Venmo wouldn't then try to take it back from the recipient. They wouldn't. Yeah, they wouldn't. So that's how it was able to keep going. They would just keep trying to go after the person that was the sender when really they should have debited back as like a charge back, like a credit card would have worked. That's how that should have been processed to avoid it, but they didn't. And PayPal did that too. I used to do that. I found like the PayPal e-checks back in the day, you would just, you know, you send it

And they pay it right then and there. Now they don't send it until like it's actually cleared from your bank account unless you're in good standing. Yeah. And they'll let you, like if you have a history of using it correctly. Yeah, like even then with Venmo, you used to have to have at least one transaction. At first, there was no transactions. Then like they changed it. And then it was like all you had to do was just do one $5 transactions, let it actually register, come out of the bank. And then your account was in good standing. And then it would work. And then like after a while-

We did that. And then they changed it to like, you have to have your social security in there. And we're like, all right, fuck it was people's put their socials and no one really cares. Like, cause everybody's also the same people that are willing to do like something like that. They're also doing like drugs. Right. So like people always find that like, so shocking that like so many people would be down to do this type of stuff. But like, if you're on drugs, like it's so easy, like anything that will give you $2,000 right now, this second, like,

That's just like, I'll owe them money. Fuck it. Like I would have borrowed money from, you know, God himself, whoever, it didn't matter. How many transactions can you get off a one bank account? One. Just one. And then that bank account's burned. Yeah. And then you got to find a new one. Not even just the bank account, the person's burned. Like you have to have a whole new account. The receiver can be the same receiver on all of them. So like we kept one account clean sooner or later, like we just would switch up the receiver also. Yeah.

But like I think through like three receivers, they're like a couple hundred different people sent money without having any money on the other end. And what is a receiver getting out of this? I would just give them like a cut. Okay. And then you get the rest. Yeah. Like 500 bucks to the receiver and 500 bucks to the person. And I would just take like 2000. And then are these banks closing your accounts right after or are they letting you do it? No, the banks don't care. The banks just say, oh, no, we don't have the money. Venmo would close your account. Okay. Yeah.

Unless your bank was in bad standing, like it kept overdrafting. Like as long as you could keep covering the overdraft fees, it was okay. Yeah. Or you like, all you'd have to do is just, yeah. I mean, essentially like, I don't even think Venmo would keep trying to bill you. I guess maybe it probably would. Right. I think it does. PayPal. Cause I never really did Venmo like that, but PayPal, they would try to,

debit it like three times. That was the other thing. So they would go to your bank three times and that person that's already been paid, got the money and you could send even a couple more transactions and everything like that. There was no communication between the bank and PayPal to show the money wasn't there. Now that that's the same thing with like check fraud and everything like the check cashing back then there was no instant verification. Now you go there, they know like at a casino, if the money's there or not.

yeah it was too easy honestly like when i was like shocked like i remember like us sitting there just like smoking a blunt and being like how the fuck is this possible that this works yeah you know so the people that post like uh drop me or like zell or paypal or venmo now in the in like on social media what are they doing honestly that whole scam i've still never been able to figure out how what the fuck they're doing like i i thought because like i the way i did it was just like

It wasn't like drop me your Zelle. I guess that they were probably doing some similar thing, but I seen that scheme so many times, but like I would basically just post like, do you want to make money? And then I would just ask them for their information and it'd be like college kids and stuff like that. And then they would just give me their information and then I would just run it. And a lot of times I wouldn't even give them their money. I would just fucking, you know, take all the money.

Yeah. I'll see on Facebook, like who has bank of America, who has this, like they're doing certain banks. I know it first started with like the PPP loans because I knew like you can just put in that information. They send it to that account for the loan and a different person's name. And then you get that, you'll take a cut exactly what you're doing for Venmo. But now that that's all over, I don't know what people are doing. It's crazy. Yeah. There was a recent one with bank of America that was like some sort of

Like, I saw, like, a bunch of people on social media talking about it. But I don't know what the fuck they were doing. Like, I don't really, like, tap into that world. Honestly, now, like, when I see that...

after like having businesses that like made a lot of money like us like brokey shit you know so this first scam with venmo the victim is is venmo then basically your take you're stealing money from venmo yeah there was no actual victim besides venmo like no person lost money and are you looking at it in like your mind at the time okay this is a big company i don't really care like i'm not thinking about ramifications um yeah like all the fraud that i did throughout my life

I never really scammed people.

Or at least people that I knew, you know, like, like even like during the crypto times or FEMO or any of this type of stuff. I never even like spoke to the person on the phone, you know, like it was like, that's what always made fraud easy over the internet was just like, you don't actually have to see the person speak to the person. Like people that I know in real life, like I could never do that. You know, like it becomes very, like a much different feeling, like scamming someone you actually met or spoke to.

But yeah, like I mean, I don't think I was thinking like oh Venmo's taking the L like this is better than like Joe Schmoe taking the L but uh, you know, at least it was them like I like if I thought about like today I'd be like, yeah, I'd be happily think that like I would I would think

Less lower of the person that scams Venmo over scams like a regular person So what was your motivation to start that scam to begin with? It was that you were just looking for income and you're done selling drugs now that you're in Florida Yeah, I mean I it was just strictly that like I was just like constantly ripping and running never like no There was just no stopping me as far as like how I'm gonna like find my way in life because I had no other support and

I wasn't going to just like go get a job and do like some sort of slow money thing because I was just too addicted to fast money. So I just found that and just hit it and just kind of ran with that. And you did, you know, in your defense, you did try the normal job. A lot of people that get that fast money from drugs don't even go and work the normal job until after prison. So you kind of experienced both of those at that age. Yeah. Yeah. I think like even...

Trying to think now, like when I, when I think about it, I always think of like new parts of it. But like, even when I was in Florida doing that Venmo thing, like we had got a job at some sort of company, like sales company, or even when I was like very young, I was working out. Like I tried to work at like a mortgage company, but like all that was fraud too. You know, it was funny. Like, like I was probably, I was selling drugs for sure. Like 14, 15, but I was working at like a mortgage company and,

And then like the years later, like the owner of that, like gets arrested for fraud also. So like, I was just like every single aspect of my life since like birth was fucking somehow mixed into some sort of fraud. Was it weird transitioning from selling drugs to doing fraud? Like, did it almost feel like too easy? Fraud is much better. Yeah. Like fraud is like, like not having to deal with people in person is definitely much easier. And, and, uh, uh, you know, like you just don't feel like you're,

You don't have like the stress of just like having a person relying on a person to do or make you money. So now you make the money with Venmo and you start the car business, a luxury car rental business, which was legit at first. Yeah. I mean, that whole business was fully legit. There was never like they made it seem like that was like some sort of fraud. Yeah.

But that business was legit. We bought one car and then we bought a couple more cars. And we just tried to build it out. We partnered with a big company down in Florida. And so we had access to every single car there ever was. And we just did that for a while. And we were killing it. We were making great money. We were just overspending. We were just living in Miami, just partying every day and spending crazy money. Joe, can I get a water?

But, um, they, you know, there might be my bag. Yeah. So, um, yeah. So like the, the business, the car business was fully legit. I don't know, like what they even said was fraud about the car business. Do you know? No. Um, well, I think actually I do the, the end of it. I think it was when you guys went bankrupt in the business, um,

you guys were like selling it when you didn't actually own it. Like you're forging the papers or something. Yeah. The, the, the same kid that was like the lead of Sentra. He did that. Um, like you, that was like the craziest shit. That was definitely fraud. Yeah. Wait. So the business was viable and you guys were making money. Yeah. How do you guys make money just by renting them out? Yeah. It's a great business. Like say like, uh, my, our first car is Aston Martin and, um, the payment on that was like 2000 a month. That's crazy. Um,

Um, and then there's insurance, right? So like say 3000 a month. And, um, if you rent it, it was like seven, $800 a day. So we were just renting that car, that one car, you rented out 20 days, 30 days out of the month, or even say like 25, um,

It's a great business. So like there's that business was was great. Then we bought a Bentley and then we had a couple Maseratis. But it's all financed. You guys don't actually you're not reinvesting the money back in the business to buy it. We owned like three of the cars outright.

Then like a couple of the cars were financed. Now, is it risky in that type of business? Like someone, is anyone trying to steal it? You guys are young kids or kind of like some of the risks aspects or was it all clean business through and through and you had no issues? The risk is you're like the people who want to rent a car or like drug dealers, scammers, rappers, and they just beat the shit out of your cars or they'll like crash your car. Then like,

drop it somewhere and like that's like the risk financially but honestly you don't even mind if a guy totals the car because then at least the insurance covers it

Like if you have a car for a couple months and then a guy totals it and you get the full payment for that car, you're kind of happy in a way. Because those cars just lose value like crazy because they're just getting like worn down as rentals. Do you look at some of these like influencers that post cars and know that it's like rented and any of these things on social media? Yeah, like for sure. Like my boy is still like the main guy down in Miami. But I mean...

I don't know. I don't mind that. Like, that's what it is. That's like with the world we live in today. I don't, I don't hate like some kid. It definitely becomes different. Like if they're like renting a bunch of cars and trying to sell a course, like, like they're big, you know, like they got make a lot of money or something like that. That's where it becomes like scummy and essentially just like fraud. Right. And people do do that. Yeah. That's like scummy. But like, as far as like,

you know, if you went down there and rented a Lambo, I don't expect you to be like, I rented this from, you know, MVP or whatever it is. Yeah, that's very true. So why does that business collapse? Because you're spending too much of the money that you're making? Yeah, it never like fully collapsed either. Well, why are you forced into having to sell the cars in a fraudulent way? Yeah, so like we were basically like,

Definitely like making like 50K a month and then spending like 70, 80, 100K a month between three of us. One of the guys, he basically like kicked him out of the business because I was like, there was just at one point where like checks were getting cashed in to the other guy's names. You know, I don't need to say their names, right?

And I was like, who the fuck is like, and then like we were arguing like, and I was like, I basically just like took one's word over the other. Um, cause it was like a hundred K or whatever it was that would just went missing. And it was like, this was like after we had like months and months and months of us like overspending and we were like in debt.

And then I basically took the word of one kid and the other kid moved out of the house. We were all living together at the time. And then from there, I was like, fuck both of you guys. I just jumped on a jet, not a jet or like a plane and flew down to Vegas for like a couple hundred K in my bag. I was like, I'm just going to make all the money back and then pay off all these debts. And then just like go back to work in construction. And I basically just like, I was, I had probably like a few hundred Xanax on me. I literally like flew with like a couple hundred K in my bag and,

I just lost all my money playing back right? I played the world series of poker first and

And like I made it to like day two loss and then just like played back at like 24 hours straight and lost the rest of it. Now describe that feeling of, you know, losing, going in with a lot of money, thinking you're so like confident and that, you know, you're going to walk in there and leave because you're coming fully loaded. And as gamblers, you know, like if you go unloaded, you kind of have a little bit of a better odd in a way because you're more comfortable. You know, you're not pinching pennies and you could do those bigger bets. But that feeling after that,

It's miserable. It's the most wicked feeling. I mean, like, I didn't even, like, like, I, after, like, I was down probably 100 and I'm, like, losing the rest of it.

I was basically like, I'm going to either lose all my money or I'm going to, I'm either going to make all my money back or I'm going to go kill myself. So like I lost all my money. I just went up to my hotel room. I took like 50 something Xanax, a bunch of Suboxone that I had on me. And then just like, there's like, that was like my only actual attempt at committing suicide was that. I remember just like laying there and then I basically just woke up like 24 hours later. Like I slept full 24 hours straight.

And I just woke up and I'm like, I'm not dead. You know, I remember like mad miss calls and I called my mom and I just cried for like a while. Just like, you know, mad ashamed that like I had lost all that money and I didn't know like where to go. And then that's like when I fly back to Florida and the kids like, yo, like, you know, this is how we can like get some money back into our accounts. And that was like when he came up with the idea for selling the car.

and I was like alright fuck it we'll get rid of the Bentley and I was so shocked how easy it was he was like the master at that he would just take something like a title or whatever it is PDF edit it and just do it with the most legit companies banks anything he would just PDF edit it and submit it and this is the same guy that would help you later on when you guys had to come up with fake documents and what not in your next business yeah so like

He's like the like Sorbitron man. I mean, I don't know. It doesn't matter because he's like the main character in the whole thing and he's been charged, right? Yeah, he was like he started like at this point of the company after the Bentley thing goes. He's still like we're like spending that money. But then I'm like sitting in the office one day and he's like talking about crypto and I was like, all right, like what is this crypto shit? Then he's talking about and he had like mad money in it already. I'm like, where the fuck do you just like randomly get 50k that you're like, you know, they trading crypto, right?

And then out of nowhere, like he just one day is like, yo, fucking biggest scam crypto. Like it flash crashes, I guess, trading leverage for anybody that knows how like leverage works. But like out of nowhere, like there was just like a scam wick where like the price just like drops super sudden. And like he just got liquidated for like the whole his whole role. And he was like, I'm going to sue Coinbase, which is just like most like insane thing. And he just basically lost trading, you know.

And, uh, when he was trying to do that, he was on Reddit and basically found out like about all these ICOs. So, um,

That's where he was like, all right, we should definitely do some sort of idea in crypto. And these guys are raising hundreds of millions of dollars. And what's an ICO for people that don't know? It's an initial coin offering. It's essentially just like an IPO, but for crypto. Gotcha. Now, when he first told you about all this, was this legal, what he was doing? Is there any type of scam involved? I know you said the word scam because he felt like he got scammed when he lost. Yeah, that wasn't a scam, right? No.

As far as was there a scam involved? We just didn't have like any sort of credentials to really create like a real company on the level that these other companies were saying. And like our idea was like we found a company in Singapore that had like these cards that they're like able to spend cryptocurrency in real time. And we basically was like, all right, we're just going to take that idea and say that we're like already way further ahead than we already are.

We'll say we have deals with Visa MasterCard, all this type of thing. All these type of things where like that's where like essentially is a scam or fraud because you're lying to like try to raise money. But what he was doing, because you didn't know much about crypto, if anything at all. Him trading? No, that was the Jada Man. So he was he he knew a little bit about crypto at least or how to make money in it.

Yeah. Yeah, for sure. I mean, I don't know if he was ever making money or he was just like stealing money from me in the car business and then putting it into crypto and then day trading. So there's just no difference between like that. If anybody knows that just trades like high leverage in crypto, it's the same thing as like me going to the casino. Yeah.

Do you wish you stuck with the car business and took it seriously? Yeah, 100%. Like if I would have like, if this was today, sober minded and I was just in that position where I had a few hundred thousands just like go into the car business down in Miami, I

And I had like good partners. I would a hundred percent like feel like I could have succeeded. I just had no guidance. I was, but like, it's not like all their fault that business failed either. Right. Like I was also spending crazy amounts of money because I never had like a legitimate business that made money. Like it was always like drug money where I was like fine to spend a lot of money because you just kind of make it fast, spend it fast. Do you think a part of you wanted to be in a legitimate business? Always. Who wouldn't like rather be in a legitimate business? It,

It's not like I'm chasing the scam aspect of it. I'm just chasing the money aspect of it. Yeah. And I think that's like where a documentary doesn't do it justice because it starts off at the scam. Yeah. And you don't hear about the backstory of the person like in death about, you know, what that what led them to that point. Yeah. Even like the opening line is I always want to be a criminal. And like I was talking about, like childhood trauma, which led me to always wanting to be a criminal.

um, at a young age and they just cut out like childhood trauma was like, I always want to be a criminal, you know? Yeah. Which is like a sick thing to do in a way. Like I, of course I didn't just, you know, I wasn't like, Oh, I want to be a criminal. Some people are like that. Yeah. I mean, murderers and shit, fucking psychopaths. But I was never like, you know, I just like,

There was a few factors besides just the childhood trauma. I always viewed my grandfather who was a connected guy as a criminal. So I was like between that and then the childhood trauma, that's what led me to always wanting to be a criminal. So you guys decided to go into business together with the card business, with the crypto business. Yeah.

when the car business was failing or you guys were out of money. Yeah, exactly. And he... You guys raised money for this by coming up with fake titles or he makes the fake titles. Yeah.

so like the first step like at first like i was like trying to convince him not to do the crypto stuff i was like yo let's just like try to figure out this car business and like make it work again um i was like we're making great money like we can make this work and he was like nah like this is the way and i was like all right like you know he was he was definitely like i always felt like he was smarter than me and i was like all right i'm just gonna like follow a leader here right um

So with that, I kind of just like, was like, all right, what are we going to do? He cooked up a website. Like we found the company, it was called 10 X. We took their idea. We just basically got like some Upwork people to like, or, you know, like five or Upwork. They made a website copied and pasted like pretty much their whole website. And then just like change it to like our company. Um,

And from there, we're just like, all right, like now we like found someone to like create a coin. And then you basically have that coin and try to sell that coin and raise money with that coin. And were you guys able to do that? At first, it was super slow. Like the first month we probably raised like 100K, which is decent. But like it was just slow. But like we had seen these other companies raising like 10, 100 million. We're like, how the fuck are they doing this?

And then we kind of just had like a stroke of luck. Like people don't realize like how much luck factored into like besides just having like the base model of like what we were going to build out. This guy, Cliff High, puts out an article and he basically just like uses like AI to put out his articles. And it just basically said that like Centratech was partnered with a bank. And it wasn't like about Centratech the coin. It was like some other Centratech. And with that, like a few million came in like within a week.

So then we just like, all right, like what, like it was the craziest moment. I remember like sitting on my balcony and me, we, we had, we, uh, we were living separate at this point and I'm just like in my box, smoking a joint. And like, I was always just like refreshing the page to see like how much more money came in. Like when we're raising money, then like, I don't know, it was like a hundred K came in, like another hundred K, 200 K. And we're like, that was like a fucking crazy moment to like, out of nowhere go from having like a failed business to

Trying to start a new business struggling and then just like a few million dollars comes in It was a like a surreal moment So if that article never happens you never get any of that money and it never takes off Who knows like we maybe would have figured out another way but yeah, like that really that moment there was like a lifeline like even though like it ended up being a crime but like that was really what like a

just propelled us to like the next level really quick so once you have the money then what happens are you guys just day trading with it to try to make more money or like what how does it all work because getting the money is step one now you actually have to make money so like that was that was only like a few million dollars that was like the we raised way way more than that um

we right away just like transitioned to like, let's use this money to like pay for marketing. And, um, that's how you get the celebrities. Yeah, exactly. So like, we just parlayed that and now like cause that article had came out, everybody was talking about us in this space and we were just like,

The key, like the move back then, I don't know like as many people doing it in crypto now, but you can do like PR releases for like any company. You can do Fox News and it's just like a paid press release. And they just basically stated in like very tiny letters at the bottom. And no one even knows. It's like, oh, Fox News just put out an article about Centra or any company just put out an article about Centratech. And it just raises crazy money.

You know, you can basically be like everybody you can write complete a full lie and they'll publish it They don't even fact check any of it. That's crazy Now you had some celebrities that were tied to it that were promoting it or you paid them. Yeah Yeah, so like that was like the next step after we had raised like 20 million we found like at a like Miami Club like a Friend of Floyd who's like yeah, I get you Floyd to promote this and we essentially paid him like a

million dollars but most of it we paid him in like central tokens which is like printed money and We paid him like cry a couple hundred K and like actual cash Floyd Mayweather Yeah, yeah for me whether and he put out like a he made like a commercial or like two videos just like Spending crypto like spending his Bitcoin, you know with the center card we sent them basically it's like so like we planned this whole moment out because we hadn't had the app or anything ready yet and

We basically took like our debit card sent to like this guy who basically made it into a center card, like, you know, reface the whole thing. And then essentially like all he was was just swiping like one of our debit cards. And then we just made the app show as if like a real transaction was taking place on the app, like spending Bitcoin, like just subtracting Bitcoin out of the app. So that video is just like fully video.

Made it made up, you know like that we weren't ready or like had any sort of real app yet So what did it have worked? Like I know you go you're under pressure and that's why you guys make like a fraudulent video But do you think it would ever worked? So that's like a whole nother part of the story that's left out like there's so much time in between like that that happening Like that little prototype app that Floyd had used after that we had raised like a few hundred like we ended up getting to a point like where we had

Because we raised like 30 something million, but then crypto just boomed. So like that 30 something million went to like 100 and something million.

Uh, more like 200 million. Uh, then we basically like spent like $50 million on like actually building like a real app. And we had like all in-house developers and we fully built everything that we said we were going to build. So like that part is just completely taken out of the documentary because they didn't want to talk about that. So like by the time we ended up getting arrested, we had a fully working app, uh, everything like customers had the cards. Uh, I hate that that part's out of it. Cause it's like, it just seems like we just took the money and got greedy and

Of course, like we were spending like I was like at the club every day and fucking hookers all day. But we had like a real team in house that we hired like lawyers and everything like that to really try to build what we said we were going to build. And we built what we said we're going to build. So what we were charged for was all the lying in the beginning. We're raising the money because you raise the money on fraudulent intent. Yeah. So like the charges are all correct. Like we were not. But just like the way it's structured in the documentary doesn't tell that part of it.

And like everything in crypto today is the same thing. Like you're just basically like it's even worse today. Like at least then we raise money by lying. And then we, you know, built the technology and whatever we were charged for raising the money. But now it's just like, all right, ever since the U.S. government has gotten involved with crypto, it's just gotten worse. And now like people are like, oh, we're just going to create nothing. We're just going to create this cartoon character. And, you know, everybody let's just rally behind this fucking dumb cartoon thing.

And they're going to like billions of dollars. So like, and then like all essentially that's happening is just like all that people who got in first, it's just like a big Ponzi scheme, right? If there's nothing like that, it's going to,

like keep the coin running or like fuel that, like at least with Centra, like the point was, was like the credit card fees would go back into the coin and there'd be like a, some sort of self-sufficient way that like the project would fuel the coins price over time. And you're investing in that. Now it's basically just like whoever can be like the best insider trader and

is going to win. That's all crypto is now. It's like, how can I become like the best insider trader? So what was the business model? Like people buy coins, they're on this database, they're trading and they're making money and then they can get a card with it and use that card to say, like, go to a Dunkin' Donuts and you're getting a fee and that's how you guys make your money. And do you make a percentage off the trade too? So like in crypto, that's why like I try to say like the sustainability of crypto over time, I'm not like that.

Positive about like I think Bitcoin is a great one because it's just like a store of value that I can send some guy in China money instantly But like as far as all these other ones, they're like the real cash grab So like we would really make our money off just the coins themselves and liquidating the coins over time Or like having shares in a company wasn't about the company or the car like crypto lacks that part of it and people don't like to talk about it, but that business

without the coin isn't self-sufficient like the fees of the card would never make us enough money we're like it's all about the coin pumping in price and then us being able to sell the coin over time to make our money now didn't robin hood or something like that come up with something where like with the stock system where you you're buying and trading stocks and you can use some of that money on your card to have access to go like shopping or whatever

It's so sad. Like every company just basically took Centris technology and is like doing it themselves now. Coinbase has it. Robinhood has it. We were the first ones, the people that own Staples Center. It's crypto.com. That was our main competitor. They also lied about having Visa MasterCard before they had it. Then they just basically rebranded, came to the United States, and now they're like a multi-billion dollar company. So it was a legitimate idea. Like it could work because people are doing it now. Yeah. Like that idea is being done now. We did it. We did it. Yeah. So like, and now everybody's just doing it and it's like just like a,

regular thing. We were just the first one to actually get finished with the technology. Now is the main problem of like your case, like did people start to complain because it took so long to build the actual product where, you know, you have to lie to say why they're not getting their returns or their money. And that's when you guys have to start making it like getting fake attorneys or hiring people or whatever to shield it. The fake attorney thing was like so overblown in the documentary too. That was like,

When we were first some other company, I got in trouble. We were like, oh, we have to find out of our security. We paid some guy on Upwork for like a couple thousand bucks.

And he basically was just like, oh, no, I did the research. You're not a security. That was like that whole story. It just happened to be that like when the SEC investigation was going on, we were like, well, we spoke to this lawyer and this is what he had said. And then they made it act like that was like our main lawyer in the whole case. It was just like a one time thing. We spoke to this guy. And he was a scammer himself. Yeah. Isn't that ironic? The scammer gets scammed. It's crazy. He was like students for Trump. And he was like a kid in college and scammed us. That was a pretty epic part of the documentary. It was good that they like.

Like, you know, how documentaries shape things. But that was like a very funny story to like overblown, like to play out like as like as a bigger thing than it really was. Yeah, I think they did make it say that I was he wasn't tied to you guys, though. Yeah, no, I had nothing to do. He got us, you know. All right. So talk about how.

like what happens to cause a downfall? Cause at the end of it, you do come up with the prototype or that the actual final version, we see it being used today with other companies. So what, what happened? It just happened to be like that, that like people, there was always like people putting out like articles about us or like the New York times did like a interview with us and basically like pointed out like, Oh, can I use the bathroom quick before I use a deep story? I got to like go on and on about this.

There's a bunch of parts that like I left out like telling throughout the time. But like one of the big things is like we had a when we first created the website, we had to like fill it with like people who were like working for the company. And one was this guy like Michael Edwards, who was just like a fully made up person who we labeled as our CEO.

And it was just because we were like 20 something and we just didn't want to look like we were the only guys running this company. So people were always asking questions about who the fuck is Michael Edwards? And we're just like, oh, he's the money guy. After we said he was the CEO, now he was just the money guy. And then that was one of the major things that led to the downfall.

And didn't you say he died or something when like people started asking to meet him? Yeah. Like that was like when the New York times put out their article and they were like asking, who is this guy? We're like, all right, like we have to like figure out how to like clean up everything now. And, um,

There was like a bunch of things that stacked on top of each other was like the perjury case happened right during this time also. And they seized my phone during that perjury. So like I lied on the stand and then they took my phone and then they're basically like, we're not going to give you back your phone unless we can. So like it was almost like the FBI was already on to us because like usually like you get arrested, they take your phone, they give you your phone back. But like they knew we were up to something. They were like, we're not giving you your phone back unless we can.

like take all the data from it. But why did you guys have to have a fake CEO? Like, why couldn't you guys be the face of it? If I could go back in time, I would just do that. Like, right. It would just be like me and him. And we were just like, where this is, where's like trying to figure this out. Like, this is our idea. We probably could have like over time done the same thing and been a huge major company today. It was just like, we were too built in to like, like think that we would be able to do that ourselves. And we were like, we have to lie a little bit here. Um,

And then it was also like we had lied about having the Visa MasterCard deals before we had it and that was like a big reason why people are investing money. But who even tips them off to begin with? Like how do you come on their radar? Because no one's technically losing money, right? That money. Everybody was making money. So like our coin had started at a certain price. It was probably up like, you know, like a thousand percent in less than a year. So like everybody's making crazy money. Yeah.

And everybody's like super happy because like people don't care about like what the bad things are being said about the company as long as they're checking their wallet and the price is going up. But then there's also like these people who didn't invest at all. And these like, like, you know, they're YouTubers and they're like, I want to make like a

a video about like how this company is a scam and they're like calling like the banks and stuff like that to see if you actually have those deals so like that's like kind of what happened them them like the youtubers and then like a lot of times with the youtubers we would just like call them or like get in touch with them and be like yo we'll give you 10k shut the fuck up and like pretty much like 99 out of 100 of them would just like put out a new article and be like i spoke to them they're super legit you know like right after they just had like said we were scamming

Um, so like we just kind of control the narrative that way but then the new york times obviously like, you know, we couldn't just like pay the new york times off and Their investigation is like after time just kind of they figured everything out. They figured out the fake ceo They figured out we didn't have the visa mastercard, which is like the two main points of fraud um were those two things and that was like when we killed off the ceo we put out like a fake obituary and um

It was like the most ridiculous thing that we actually had. My partner must have wrote the obituary because it was like, he leaves behind his bulldog, you know, Sammy or whatever the fuck his dog was. And, um, and the funniest things like that, the picture that we use was like a Canadian professor that, uh, um, it's a funny scene in the documentary too. Cause like the way we found that picture was just like an old white guy. We just searched like old white guy and just found like a picture of like a guy that looked good on the internet. And, um,

And then he's in the documentary himself, you know? Yeah. Cause he's like, I guess I showed up at his house or he got reached out to. Yeah. Well, they like, suppose like the Canadian FBI, like came to his house to like talk to him and he was like, what the fuck is going on here? Yeah. I just never understood like the, why even do that? You know, the, the whole fake CEO thing. Cause you didn't need to. Yeah. I agree. I, I, I always try to say that to everybody's like, if

If I could just go back, I would have just never lied. It wasn't like my idea to come up with those lies. It was just the other kid. He was like, oh, we're going to say we have Visa MasterCard. We could have definitely done the same thing without ever lying. The fucked up part, though, is like the other companies in crypto. They said the same lie as the Visa MasterCard thing is really bigger than the CEO thing. The CEO thing is kind of.

It was just like us, like freelancers over like, oh, what do you want to put for the team page? And he was just like, all right, like, here's a picture. Here's a picture, you know?

That was kind of irrelevant like that. They just like they had to like prove fraudulent parts in the investigation and also like in the documentary to like Really say that like we were doing all this wrong the CEO thing Of course they could happen and we did it but that didn't like help us in the fraud that much the Visa MasterCard thing was definitely like the main thing that we did and we also said like

Like, we made videos and posted them on YouTube and all these different channels of us, like, using the app and the card, and it was just, like, a prototype at the time. So that type of shit is where, like, the actual fraud was. So out of all the money you're raising, are you guys spending that money illegally? I know you're investing into the app and stuff, but what about your salaries? How are you guys getting paid? Because you're still living, you know, a pretty good lifestyle. Yeah, of course. Like, we just basically...

Like I made like a few million. I was just like gambling every day, doing drugs, like at the clubs every day, essentially. My thing was always like poker. I would just play like high stakes poker, you know, a lot of hookers and stuff like that. So it wasn't like we were, I was like parlaying that money into like other crime or anything. I was like making way too much money and just had like endless access to whatever money I wanted. So I just like

I'd wake up every morning. I would just do a bunch of drugs, put my suit on, go to the office, drive. I was driving like an Aston Martin. But like, I felt like the man, it was like the best. That was like the coolest moments. Like as far as like that part of the story, like that moment of just like waking up, like smoking a joint, taking a couple of Xanax, putting my, like taking a shower, putting my suit on and,

like driving in and then like having like all in all like you know 50 plus employees lawyers that you like have working on your payroll it felt like super like as a 25 year old kid or whatever it was it felt like super uplifting and and fun at the time you think it got too much to your head um did it get too much to my head in which in which way i don't i would say in like a negative way like you're you're getting all that money you're seeing in what your eyes was success and

that can build a big ego, make you make worse decisions? It definitely, like I always had like an ego, but I don't think it made my ego worse. It kind of was like a necessary experience for me to have in my life for me to realize like material things are irrelevant, right? Like

If it wasn't for like this case happening, I probably would have ended up dead or like just continue doing drugs or whatever it was. So this whole case like really did save my life because like I made all that money and I was just like trying to find ways to spend this money, just gambling, buying fucking shoes, cars. And I'm like, this is like such like an empty world. Like what am I doing? Like a bunch of women that don't even care about anything and

Uh, all those people like kind of suck that are around you, like no one that like really loves you. So like, I think that was just like a necessary feeling to like, be like, Oh, money isn't that important as far as like, of course, like you want money to like take care of your family, that type of thing. But making millions of dollars and just like blowing it in Miami is like, just not like a real life or anything.

Or something like sometimes I think people need to experience that, but I definitely needed to experience that, but it definitely saved my life going through that and not like loving the life of what it was. Do you think you were chasing kind of being wanted and loved and, you know, being like a part of something that maybe you didn't have in your childhood? Um, chasing wanting to be loved. I don't, I don't know. I don't know. Like, it's like a,

Trying to fit in type of feeling I was just chasing the money aspect of it Like I I definitely love like the sport of making the most money possible. I Don't think like like I always got girls with the money without the money pro poor whatever didn't matter So it wasn't like that as far as love love is like I think I

On drugs, you don't really even know what love feels like. So I think it wasn't until, like, being off drugs where, like, oh, you actually care about what love is and, like, see how much that actually matters and is, like, a real thing in life. So the New York Times article comes out basically exposing everything you guys have going on. How long does it take for the FBI law enforcement to come to your door? So, like, we had the SEC investigation that went on for months. And with the SEC investigation...

I'm kind of just like I stepped down from the company. We both stepped down from the company, but he kind of continued on like running the company. I just was like, fuck this, like I'm out of here. And we were just like going to like meet with our lawyers and submit whatever documents they wanted.

And through that time, like they basically were trying to figure out like how much money we raised and he kept lying to them about how much money you raised. And that was like what led to the FBI kind of getting deeper involved. Like that's why I like the criminal aspect of it came up because he was lying about like how much money we raised. If we would have just like whatever, this is how much we actually raised, paid the money back. We could have just continued on a business and we probably would have been like a big successful company because we actually developed the technology at that point. So-

it's just hard to like raise a few hundred million and then just like give it away so like i understand like his logic of like these will never figure out how much we actually raised but by lot by him lying to them about how much we raised that's what led the disney plus hulu max bundle it's the ultimate bundle for an unbelievable price plan starting at 16.99 a month get it and watch marvel television's iron heart on disney plus i want to build something iconic a new season of the bear on hulu we can make people happy

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So how many ways to scrape?

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to the criminal aspect of it. So there was a chance there for us to like get out just with a fee.

And so that when the SEC investigates, they're looking like it's like a civil kind of fraud or whatever. SEC is all civil. Yeah. So it could be a criminal complaint or whatever in the SEC, the terminology, and you would just pay a fine, lose a license or whatever, slap on the wrist. But because there was pushback from you guys or from your partner, that made it criminal. Yeah. Hedge funds and stuff like that pay big fines for these exact same type of reasons all the time. Yeah.

But yeah, like if you lie to them and they figure out that you're lying, then the FBI will get involved and shut you down. And how old are you when the investigation starts? So we got arrested in 2018. This is like end of 2017, maybe. So I'm 26. So you kind of walk away. They're investigating. What do you do when the FBI does come to your door? So there's like a it's like a few month period there where I'm literally just like every day.

um doing as much drugs as possible like this is to the point where like i was doing like 30 xanax 20 to 30 xanax a day and gambling playing back right like hi and i basically just like lost all the money that i made from the company and then like i one day i just like leave the casino and i get home at like four o'clock in the morning i fall asleep and then just like six o'clock in the morning or like literally like an hour after i went in because they were waiting um

They just like you should bang, bang, bang, bang on the door and FBI open up. And like I was just like in my boxers and they were nice. You know, like I just they just like took my gun because at first like they I heard the bang. I thought I was getting robbed. I like took my gun and I hear FBI like my gun down. And they just like, you know, let me get dressed, took my gun.

And like, it was like that moment was like, uh, usually like I would be so scared of like withdrawals because like I was doing so many drugs and it was so weird. Like I went to jail and like, I felt like my withdrawals were like just relieved from me. Like I knew that I was done, done doing drugs and I was in there for like a week. Um, you know, which was like miserable. I was in like a suicide suit, you know, like the turtle, you know, the one I'm talking about, the Velcro one. Yeah. And, um, that sucked.

Why were you in there for so long? It wasn't that long. It was like a week. Oh, that's a long time. I got out the same day. Yeah? Yeah. It was because the money... So, like, when we got arrested, there was still that money, and they were trying to find that money. So, like, we hadn't given them the money yet, and they were basically like, we're not letting you guys out of jail. And I'm like, I don't have the fucking money, you know? Like...

And sooner or later, they realized like it wasn't me that had the money and they let me out to go to rehab. Did you know what your charges were that day when they arrested you? Yeah, it was just security fraud and wire fraud. And had they talked to you at all like the FBI before you got arrested? So like there was a point where I was meeting with like the SEC lawyers and they were like, well, you have a couple options here.

And, and like, she never like explained to me that like, I could have cooperated because she was like, she was like, well, you could, you know, talk to them and work it out with the SEC, but never like the FBI aspect of it. But then like, I tried to like, I was like, all right, cool, whatever. Like, let's talk to them. And she sat me to try to like prep me for it. And she was like, you're way too high. She's like, you'll never like, you're not even able to like tell me what the fuck the company did. I was like completely gone at that point.

And I never realized till after that they were like, oh, you could have cooperated beforehand because she never like made it clear. And also like my co-defendant was the one paying for her. So I don't know if that like had a part in like her not really pushing for me to cooperate.

But, you know, I probably would have been better off just like cooperating before the FBI got involved. Now, did all three of you guys, your three partners, you plus two, get arrested at the same time? No, they got arrested like a month before. Oh, so you knew that was coming then? Well, at first I'm like, wait, maybe I'm good here. Because I had left the company and they stayed there, right? So like I had left like a few months before them. And it wasn't until one of them called me from jail. And then they got me like a week later. So there was a chance that like I...

I mean, they probably still would have got me sooner or later, but there was a chance that they would have just, like, never got me. So, because they got them first, they never got presented an opportunity to flip on you? No, one of them, like, tried to cooperate. Against you? Yeah. And why did that not work? I think he just... I know he, like... Supposedly, I think he... I mean...

I don't even think I could talk about that, honestly. Okay. So, um, that happens, you get arrested and, um, after them, then what happens next? Um, like how long is the legal process play out for? So after they, after I get arrested. Yeah. And you get out of jail for that week. You do the week in jail. Yeah. I go to rehab and then like I'm on house arrest in Virginia, my mom's house. And, um,

It's like because of COVID, it ended up being so long. Like we didn't get sentenced till 2021. So it was like three years.

And that kind of, from my eyes, kind of helped you in a way. Because it kept like the longer you're out on supervised release, you know, you're on good behavior, everything's going well. That kind of helps your case and makes the argument like, okay, he's rebuilding his life. Why are we going to send him back to prison? Yeah, no, absolutely. Like after I had got out during that time, like I was on house arrest for a while. And then like I started cooperating. So I'm meeting with them every time. They're seeing like a sober version of me. And they're basically like, all right, we're going to like –

you know, allow you curfew. And then like on curfew, I meet my wife. Uh, I remember them, they were like super, like the prosecutors, they were like super adamant about like, like they really felt like they cared about me staying sober, obviously like for the case as well. But it seemed like it's from a genuine place, um, which I always appreciated that. And then like, I also went and became like a drug counselor. So like, yeah, it was like a couple of years of me just being on like such good behavior, never breaking curfew. Uh,

having a baby, they were like, all right. It definitely was in my favor doing all those different types of things leading up until sentencing. Did it take you a while to come to terms mentally to agree to cooperate against these guys? Or is it like no hesitation? I'm just going to do it to save myself. No, I was instantly, it wasn't about just saving myself.

The other kid had basically like fucked me over. So like there was a, there was a point there where like, he like took a few hundred thousand from me for something. And then I also like lied for him on the stand and I felt like he wasn't loyal with me at the end there. So I was like, we had a really bad falling out with the few hundred thousand dollars aspect.

Uh, like a few months before, right after the New York times things that, so like when I had left the company, we hadn't been speaking for months. So like by the time it was like comes to cooperate, I was like, please, like I would a hundred percent cooperate. Now there was no, there's never really a guarantee of no prison time because the judge can do whatever they want. So were you afraid or think, did you think at all about like, okay, if I cooperate, what's going to happen to me in prison? Like, was that ever a thought? Um, not really. Like, I think they like overhyped that aspect of it. Um,

But yeah, I guess, I guess you definitely have like some of those thoughts. Like, would you even be in like the regular part? You'd probably be just like in like a fucking. No, you'd be in the regular part. Yeah. The people that cooperate are all in the regular part. Yeah. I mean, because of your age at the time, you probably would have went to a camp and no one would even like ask for your paperwork. But if you're at a low and people ask for your paperwork, they'd give you a hard time. Yeah.

That's just like their realistic part. They put you in like with the chomos, the sex offenders, all that, you know. But you probably at that point, you were over 26 at the time. Yeah. Yeah. So you most more than likely would have went to a camp and you would have been fine. Yeah. But I mean, there's different levels, I think, to like snitching. Like I think when you hear your full story.

that the person you did snitch on was in the life with you and he betrayed you first. So I like, I think there needs to be more of a discussion like in the world in those cases, like everything's a case by case basis. Like when you look at the six, nine thing, what he did, you know, some people understand what he did. Cause you have to look at what do you think about six, nine, about six, nine, like him cooperating there. I think, I mean his, from what I've heard about the case and talk to people, like his life was threatened, uh,

the gang like kind of betrayed him, the gang he takes an oath to betrayed him. So that's when he decides he has to do what's best for him, you know? And sometimes you do need to do what's best for you. I don't believe in like snitching on like a, in a, like a random person, just kind of save yourself. But if you have two people kind of in it together, there's just so many different variables, you know, like I got snitched on my business partner testified against me. And so,

He didn't really need to. He could have, it could have been equal, you know? He threw me completely in, like, took all, you know, no liability from it or ownership from it. So there's just a different case for everything. Yeah, there's definitely a lot of nuance to it. I mean, like, I definitely wasn't, like, the main guy. And if he never fucked me over, I would have never cooperated against him. So, yeah, I mean, there's parts of it where, like, I'm like, was that, like, the best decision? But I'm like...

If it was, like, someone that, like, was, like, my friend or my family, I would have never done it, you know? So, like, I...

like people don't realize like that kid me and that kid hated each other like our whole childhoods we always had beef and then we came together and then like we did business together and then i found out that he was stealing from me with the car business and then stole from me in the crypto business and then we i lied for him on the stand and then this case happened and i was like all right i'm getting sober fuck this kid like i i'm cooperating 100 how much time were you facing before cooperation

So, like, when you cooperate, you admit to so many different crimes. Like, I admitted to, like, a gun charge. I admitted to drug dealing charges, all these different charges. So, I was facing, like, over a life sentence. Okay. But that wasn't good. You weren't going to actually get that if you didn't cooperate. Yeah, exactly. So, like, I...

Don't know maybe I would have got five years like if he got eight I got five you ever think about like if you didn't cooperate like you would have done those five years or no if if So like the way I look at it is if like the money like that kid if I had like full access to the money I like if he's coming home to like a lot of money then it's like kind of doesn't feel as bad and

That aspect of it matters to me the most, like, where, like, he took all the money. So, like, fuck it. Like, I'm not going to jail for the kid that's just, like, going to be, like, the head honcho and then take all the money. So would I have done the full five years? Like, are you saying, like... Yeah, like, do you ever think about, like, could I have survived it? Yeah, I think I would have been fine. Like, it wasn't like I was scared to go to jail. Like, I was still thinking, like, I'm probably going to go to jail for, like, a year. So I was never, like, could I have survived it? I just...

Freedom is great. You know, like it's it's tough to be like you don't want to be like away from life for five years Even with the cooperation agreement was there still jail time on the table or was it? Yeah deal. Okay. So what was that offer? there's they don't tell you so it's just like they'll use the cooperation and They'll basically say that you were like good at cooperating. So you had no idea going into sentencing what was gonna happen? Yeah, but then like he got eight years so like I was like, all right, so I'll probably get like a year. Okay, so

And then I'm like, yeah, maybe, maybe like, maybe I won't get any time, you know, like maybe they'll give me like time served for this. Like it's been fucking four years of me doing like all good behavior. Like what would be the point of like even putting me in jail? Like unless they truly believe that, like, I'm going to go commit another crime and like giving me a year there. What does that really deterring?

You know, it's like it almost would just like not make sense to give me the year. So what did they end up giving you? So I just got time served with three years probation. Three years probation. What were some like the conditions or release for that? It's just no drugs, like standard conditions. And then like travel, you have to get approved.

And then like it was security fraud. So like I can't take a company public. And what was the restitution amount? I owe like three million or something like that. Now, do you think in a lifetime you can ever pay three million dollars back? It depends. It all depends. If I had a business that made 10 million, like paying like a million, a couple million, whatever, like I'm I have to pay 10 percent of whatever I make. At least at this point, that's like what the ruling is. I don't know how the after probation works.

um 10 of gross or net i think it's before tax okay so if you make 100 grand in a year you're paying 10 grand off the top yeah and you just pay that monthly yep and uh is that joint or separated from your co-defendant it's fully separated i don't know like even what their restitution is so you have you're responsible for three million on your own yeah and who does that go to

None of the money has been given back. So like they seized 100,000 Ethereum and then sold it on the market for like 33.5 million. And none of the money is, it's all been just tied up in litigation ever since. So that 3 million, so like they said, our fraud charge was 32 million. They have 33.5 and they want another three from me. The money just, most of that money is never going to go to anybody.

So how do you look at like that $3 million in restitution? Do you look at that like a credit card debt? Does that like keep you up at night? Like how does that make you feel carrying that weight? Because a lot of people are interested in like, you know, Wolf of Wall Street, $100 million, like these big astronomical figures. Yeah.

Yeah, no, I mean, it definitely doesn't keep me up at night at all. Like, I'm just like, all right, I'm going to go to work and I'm going to try to make as much money as possible. I think there's a very big difference like if like of what 10% has of 100k. But if like you're able to like make a few million dollars, you're

Giving 10% is it's still like it's like obviously a larger amount of money, but it has less effect on actual life than like if you're making like 60k a year like that's it hurts you more at like 60k. Paying 6k out of 60k hurts less than paying 1 million out of 10 million. So compare your situation to like a Sam Bankman freed. What was that like? Can you give us some insight on that? I don't think he should have got as much time as he got. But.

I think like a lot of times the same thing happened to like the kid that got eight years in my case is they'll never admit that they were like doing something wrong. Like when I went up there on the stand and was like, I know I fucked up. Like, you know, that's like they want to hear that you have remorse for your actions. But if you go up there and say, well, you know, I know people lost money, but like it's only because and they give you get bought this and bought that. The same thing happened to my co-defendant. If he would have just like, you know what?

you know, of course we, we definitely lied and that was wrong. And I'm sorry for that. Just that statement there instead of, he was like, yeah, we lied and we raised money, but we also tried to really build technology. And I looked at it like Silicon Valley and a lot of those companies also do it. And that was like his answer when he was like putting his final statement in front of the, before sentencing. And I think if you do that, you just show that like, you don't have like full remorse and you kind of like feel like,

It was warranted what you did in some sort of way when it isn't like right like we we lied and we raised money and that's wrong simple. So do you think the government is right that crypto needs to be more regulated because of situations like this? Um, so crypto needs to be more regulated. The thing is it's very hard to regulate and there's a ton of nuance to that question. Also, I just spoke to some law firm about the same thing. Um,

By regulating it, you halt innovation in America, right? Because other countries, because like right now, if someone wants to make a company in America, a cryptocurrency company, they just base it out of like a foreign country and they do the same thing because it's all over the internet. So America just misses out on the tax dollars. So it's the same thing as like the marijuana business where they just missed out on those tax dollars when-

Instead, they could have like a United States based company trying to innovate. Right now, it's just not worth innovating in crypto. So the regulation right now is being done by like the head of the SEC with just like a bunch of boomers trying to regulate like a modern day industry.

So I think right now it definitely needs to be regulated, but it needs to be regulated by people who understand the industry. So you get the three years probation. You have a felony on your record. How do you rebuild? I have 13 felonies. A felony. You know, you got a felony on your record. How do you rebuild your life after that? It was hard, right? Like you go from like having money to like having no money. And then like I worked, uh,

like construction for a little bit there when I first got out, like when I was on house arrest and shit like that, like I was working in construction, busting my ass. And I was just like, you know, how can I figure out a way? And then I honestly like hadn't, I like completely was like, Oh, maybe I can't do anything in the crypto space.

And then like, I kind of spoke to my lawyer for a long time. Like, am I allowed? Like, what can I do? And what can I not do here? Cause like, I could definitely make money in this industry. And that's what kind of led me back into it where I was just like, Oh, I just can't do like secure. I can't create my own coin and have like a utility project that's deemed as security. When I found that, like, I can still just like be in the space and like, kind of, there's just like avenues of way. Like I can promote meme coins and this type of shit. I was like, I'll jump right back into that. So like, um,

that's like really helped me like get on my feet again it's just like being able to just like advise crypto companies and and do what i'm doing now do you think it's dangerous for you as as an individual to be in the space the same space that kind of got you into trouble is it dangerous um

No, it's not dangerous. Like I'm sober now. So like, it's just like a whole different world. Like I'm an older guy. I'm sober. Like I would just never take risk where I'm like, all right, I'm going to do this. And like the fraud people, I just, I would never do fraud. Like it just, I have like wife, kids. So it's just like, I think there's just so many factors now that like, I would never do what I would, you know,

like put something that would put me in harm's way crypto is a little funky as far as like meme coins go because like most of them just go to zero anyways in like a week so like that part of it is is a little confusing because people are still like they blame you especially like with my background they're like oh it's definitely his fault when it's like i didn't even fucking all i did was just like put all i am essentially now in that space it's just like a billboard right so they're like oh can you post this and then people will buy it you know so it's uh

As far as like risky, it's not like risky in the sense of me like doing something that would like intentionally defraud people, but it's like,

Because of my background, people will just always think that like I'm like the mastermind of every single coin in the whole market that ever goes to zero. They're always like like some shit that I didn't even talk about go to zero. And they're like, oh, Ray must have been behind this. It's nuts. Do you miss the fast life, like the big amounts of money, all of that, that lifestyle? Yeah, I mean, sometimes it's fun, like just having like, you know, a few hundred thousand like sitting on your lap and just like playing with it. You know, like I definitely like enjoyed that.

like just like stacking money and counting money, like in real life, you know, I love that type of shit. But at the same time, it's just like an empty thing. It doesn't really matter. So like, I think as long as I'm doing fine, like, of course, like I would want like a nicer house and a nicer car and, you know, a sick watch or whatever it is, of course that matters. But like at the end of the day, like,

it's not that deep, right? Like the, like the family aspect of life is so cool. And seeing like, like you look at your kids, like growing up and like school pictures and shit. And you like cry. That type of shit is super dope. What keeps you grounded now? Um, I feel like I've always been somewhat grounded. Like even in those times, like I've never been like a super outspoken person. Uh, I think the documentary presented me as like more of a loud mouth than I am. Um,

But I don't know. I just think family essentially is like, you know, I can make like $10 million today. My wife would just call me a loser, you know? So like, I think that type of shit keeps you grounded, you know, and your kids will still punch you in your balls as soon as you get home. So it doesn't, none of that, like the rest of it just like is irrelevant. What do you want people to take away from your story? Like your mistakes and the lessons you've learned from it? I think the biggest thing was just like, I've could have built like an amazing company and instead like we lied to

And it just wasn't realizing after the fact that it probably wasn't necessary to lie to raise that money. That was the saddest part of it all. But like, I think the biggest thing is like the material aspect of life is just so important, especially like as you get older and have kids. You know, I'm sure there's a lot of people that like don't have kids and don't ever want to have kids, but.

i think everybody needs to find their way to like have some sort of family and kids absolutely well ray thank you so much for uh inviting me out here to uh interview you and thanks for coming on the show thank you thanks for having me