Ashworth out & Sir Jim Ratcliffe talks to Andy
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This is Talk of the Devils, the athletics podcast dedicated to Manchester United. And it's just been a normal week in the world of Old Trafford and everything associated with it. My goodness, have we got a lot to get through on this podcast. And not much of it is about the football, to be honest. But even that in itself has given us quite a lot to talk about. You will have seen, I'm sure.

From our team, two major exclusives from over the weekend. First Andy released his United We Stand issue with an exclusive interview with Sir Jim Ratcliffe and then on Sunday morning Laurie along with David Ornstein and others broke the news on The Athletic that sporting director Dan Ashworth had left Manchester United after just five months on the job.

We'll react to that news. We'll also still try and find some time, somehow, to review United 2, Nottingham Forest 3 and look ahead to our next game in the Europa League on Thursday. So we've got Andy Mittum, we've got Karl Anka and we've got Laurie Whitwell. Normally we'd do pleasantries, but I think this is the type of podcast where we just get straight into it. Laurie, what on earth is going on?

That was basically the theme of the comments on the Athletic app when we broke the story. Adam Crafton, I've got to give him his flowers as well. Really integral part of all this story. And yeah, the kind of head exploded emoji is the kind of thing that you're thinking of when this news drops. So we'd got a little bit of rumblings about, you know, a little bit disquiet. And I think that will be the case, do you know, for the entirety of the INEOS regime. I think it's a tough one.

kind of environment to work in it takes strong individuals and I think you're going to get disagreements along the way so that's not necessarily itself a story but obviously the fact that then the sporting directors left after five months after being on gardening leave for five months waiting for him after paying you know three million odd quid to get him from Newcastle I think that is a story obviously but we'd got sort of rumblings that something wasn't quite right and then

The game at Nottingham Forest was a very useful barometer just to sort of see what was going on. So I was kind of keeping my eyes peeled a little bit, looking at the director's box because we're right next to it in the press seats and sort of trying to look at the chemistry between Dan Ashworth and Sir Dave Brailsford, Omar Barada, Jason Wilcox. They were all there, all the kind of high-ranking executives, apart from Sir Jim Ratcliffe, obviously, who'd done his bit with Andy and then didn't stick around for the game. And then...

Basically, after the game, Dan Ashworth walked through the press conference room and that was unusual. It feels like I'm saying it and I'm trying to read into something after the event, but obviously he was on the way to Omar Barada's office to have a conversation about his future and obviously that was confirmed that he would leave the club.

The club are saying it's mutual, but clearly, you know, it's instigated by United. It's instigated by Sir Jim Ratcliffe and we can get into the reasons around it. But yeah, stunning development given all the time and effort and acclaim that came with his appointment. Yeah, and cost, by the way, as well. Carl, this is remarkable. It took five months to get him from gardening leave and he's lasted five months in the job. I mean, it's not a good look, is it?

A man spent five months on gardening leave, five months at work, and then now he gets a payoff. It's hard for me to watch someone live my dream. You'd want to stay longer though, Carl. Surely you'd want to put the pieces together. Ah, well, this is remarkable. It's absolute. Dan Ashworth was...

I spoke to Dan Ashworth and Omar Barada before the Liverpool home game and Ashworth was asked questions about how his job works and his role, how his job differs from Jason Wilcox was really interesting at that point in time and I thought, okay, this is making sense and Laurie breaking this news, I'm like, oh God, we've got to do another family tree soon. Well,

Well, Karl, honestly, I've been trying to do a family tree since Ineos came in and it keeps getting put back because the team's not quite right, it's not quite settled and it just keeps getting torn up. Doesn't help when branches get removed, does it? Yeah, I would like Ineos to come forward and do their own family tree and save us some trouble. This is a point in time where I was texting you the other day, Ian, about how I would really like to Dave Brailsworth to explain what exactly he does.

Well, he's involved. His fingerprints are all over everything, it feels like. Every major decision that's made, every article that's written as an explainer on the Athletic, his name is mentioned in every dispatch. And they have varying reports, but there are so many things being said about Dan Ashworth and why Dan Ashworth has been removed that it can be hard to separate wheat from chaff. It sometimes feels like he's being made to be a full guy, which is really unusual.

Manchester United say this is mutual, but this feels sour and it's embarrassing, really. How shocked are you by this, Andy? I am, but I'm also not. I think Manchester United under Ineos, as Laurie alluded to, make these type of decisions. The optics of it are poor because United chased really hard to get him.

picked him up publicly and then he's out of work after a few months. If you're looking at it to see any positive from it, you could say, well, look, it wasn't working. So it's better to be ruthless and end it now.

Dan Ashworth has got a good reputation in football. I did my diligence like every journalist should do and I got good reports back on him. I don't know him. I got told he was a very good organiser, a very good administrator. I was slightly worried when I saw some of the overreactions from Manchester United fans, but that's just the modern world. This guy's some kind of saviour.

I don't think he's as good as some people thought he would be. And I don't think John Murch is as bad as some people suggested either because he was also a good administrator. It doesn't help people form opinions when Jim Radcliffe is saying he's a 10 out of 10 sporting director when asked about it. Best in class. I don't think you could strongly dispute that. Maybe...

He only spoke sort of one language. The best in class are the guys. There's very different types of sports director, by the way. There's completely different. I spoke to two of them last night who are totally different to each other. And just because you're good at one football club doesn't necessarily that translates to another football club. I know, Andy, you've met Monkey. Yeah, yeah. Before. So Monkey, very successful in his first stint at Sevilla, goes to AS Roma, just doesn't work.

When he was at Brighton, one of the big questions was, how good is Dan Ashworth with real money to spend? In that he's got Brighton to a really, really good place. If you gave him a bigger budget, what would he be able to do? Goes to Newcastle, and as he leaves, a number of the reports are, oh, well, it wasn't really his fault. XYZ, XYZ, XYZ. Comes to Manchester United, and again, the appeal or the question was, okay, he's at Manchester United. He's on the biggest scale he'll ever work. What can he really do? And now it's been five months, and we're again going, wait, what?

This is a very confusing time for Dan Ashworth as a footballing professional as well. And I think that also adds another layer of confusion to this whole situation in that Laurie, Adam and David's piece talks about Sir Jim Radcliffe being underwhelmed by parts of how Ashworth goes about his job. And I think this is also a thing of sporting directors aren't magicians and being a good administrator perhaps isn't the best flashy thing for a billionaire who wants worthwhile success on a

time scale, shall we say. And coaches aren't magicians either. So you use the example of Monchi from Sevilla where he had complete power and exploited the South American market really well, basically offered you...

really good La Liga football at the level below Barcelona and Madrid living in a wonderful city didn't work out for him at Roma Luis Enrique probably the person I've pushed forward to be Manchester United's manager more than any other in the last five years he also went to Roma didn't work out there

And then he went to Barcelona and he won the treble after being at Celta Vigo and now he's at PSG. So it's not about individuals. I think that any sports director in the world could come into Manchester United at the moment and they'll all have the positives and the negatives, but it's more about the culture. It's about the environment within the club, the strategy, the investment, the leadership. And this is what Ineos have been trying to get right by bringing in people like Dan Ashworth. I don't know whether now there's an internal appointment. I don't know whether there's an external one.

Been a lot of appointments, hasn't there? I'm just looking back thinking when we were in America pre-season, oh, there's a new assistant manager today. Oh, there's another one today. And all of these people are actually qualified coaches and half of them have now gone. And you're cutting costs, right?

and getting rid of people costs a huge amount of money. We've seen it with Eric Ten Hart. We'll see it now with Dan Ashworth. Maybe Jim Ratcliffe is thinking, all right, we've just got to get it right, even if it makes difficult decisions. And he said repeatedly throughout the interview, there will be more difficult decisions to come. Is he the man to be making those difficult decisions? He really rates Omar, his chief executive. He really rates Ruben Amorim.

But it is a bumpy ride and I think it's going to continue being a bumpy ride. Yeah, they were two of the things that I picked out from the interview to talk to you about. It feels quite pointed now that he's praising Amarin and Barada and no one else and also saying he needed to make...

difficult and unpopular decisions. I'll talk to you more about Sir Jim in a moment Andy and I'm sure people have seen the quotes now so it's more about you know the feel of it all and what it was like dealing with him I suppose which I'm going to prod you about but anyway Laurie just to just to home in on this Ashworth decision obviously the lads there have spoken about lots of different aspects but I

In the piece that you've done, which is like inside this decision, shall we say, what's the explanation for what's gone wrong? I think primarily, and Andy's touching it there, the appointment of a head coach is a significant factor in all this. So you've got Ruben Almarin coming in and...

That was driven by Omar Barada, we're told. Obviously, to Dave Brailsford, you've touched on him. He was definitely involved. Sir Jim Ratcliffe, nothing happens at this football club without his say-so. Certainly nothing major and even some of the minor stuff that goes on as well, which we might get to in a piece that we're currently pulling together on a year of INEOS. But if the sporting director isn't primarily responsible for the new head coach coming in, there's an issue there, right? And from what we're told, Dan Ashworth was...

sort of advocating for other individuals with more Premier League experience. So Eddie Howe, I know there's been a lot made about the difficulties that he had at Newcastle. And certainly I think the sort of the line management, so to speak, was a bit confusing with Amanda Stavely there. Eddie Howe could go directly to her. But I think the kind of issues between Howe and Ashworth are kind of overblown. I think he was certainly someone that he thought could be a fit at Manchester United. So there's other individuals as well that, you know,

have Premier League experience and I think the issue perhaps was according to what we're told is that Ashworth wasn't sort of assertive in what he wanted it was kind of you know a list of possibilities rather than this is the guy we should absolutely go for whereas obviously Berard was I think pretty clear with Amorim when they're discussing all these possibilities and I think

and United absolutely wanted somebody that they felt could have the charisma to shoulder a club the scale of Manchester United, and it feels like Ruben Amarin does have that, right? So far. Yeah, it's four games in, and I think I'm seeing a little bit of bags under the eyes maybe, and the hair's not quite as buoyant from one guy to another. You're talking about me or him at this point? Talking about himself? Exactly. Laurie would know about buoyant hair. Exactly, I was looking at that hair at the start thinking, oh, here we go, right, okay. But okay, he's obviously looking fresh still, the guy, but...

I think that he's obviously someone with that kind of personality that they want to tap into. It's an exciting appointment. He's won titles. So I think Ratcliffe was maybe disappointed in what Ashworth was producing there. But there's other aspects to it. I mean, Carl, you mentioned about the Liverpool briefing. That went down badly. The fact that Ashworth and Barada were saying that they weren't involved in Eric ten Haag's

continuation of manager you know that isn't the case they were across it and I think Ratcliffe was thinking well come on just at least own your decision I know you're on garden leave and it's very difficult to speak honestly in public but there's a different way you could have answered that and therefore Ashworth is ultimately it's not a defining factor that I know it's not but equally I think it is part of the picture that kind of

of grew up, got put together and Ratcliffe felt in conjunction with others, Brailsford and Barada, that it was time to make a change. As Andy said, if it's not working, you kind of have some admiration for the fact that they go, right, let's cut the cord now. But it's in the context of raising ticket prices, making staff redundant, all the fanfare that you had with the Ashworth's appointment. So it's a really bad look.

Yeah, we had an email from Morton. In light of the latest edition of the frankly baffling choices made by the new leadership, have United, Ineos, Jim Radcliffe now put all their eggs in an Omar Barada-shaped basket to form the sporting setup in his image? Do you read this, Laurie, as backing for Omar and...

Andy mentioned it before, there's lots of people in lots of different roles and there seems to be overlapping a lot of the time in some of the responsibilities. Could this be a way of streamlining as well? Yeah, I think so. I think certainly Berard has emerged to have significant influence. His role is Chief Executive but he's obviously a football-facing Chief Executive whereas Richard Arnold was very much from the commercial background. I know Berard's history is in commercial, that's where he came through at Man City, but he did do football deals as he

as he went on, you know, Erling Haaland coming into the club he was involved in. So I think he's got that mindset. He's got the contacts. He was the one out in Lisbon doing the deal with Sporting because he had that relationship already. So that was maybe a part of it with Dan Ashworth as well. Even that's quite pointed, isn't it? He's the one who's got the contacts to do this. Yeah, exactly. I mean, Dan Ashworth was back in Carrington because it was a one-person job, I suppose, to go and negotiate and Ruud van Nistelrooy needed some support at Carrington.

and the sporting director is the right person for that. But nevertheless, when you weave it all together, it sort of starts to point in one direction. And yeah, people were saying to me even in the summer that there was too many cooks at United that had wanted to have a voice, wanted to have that kind of say. So you've got Jason Wilcox as technical director, you've got Christopher Vervelle as the interim coach,

director of recruitment Matt Hargreaves is director of negotiations so you've got different people that could certainly pick up the slack there's a performance director Sam Arreth yeah there's a chief business officer he's in Trib as well at the moment isn't he yeah exactly so you've got all this so I think I get the impression that they're going to reconfigure stuff I could be wrong but that's my hunch and

maybe there comes a point where they do feel like they need to appoint an actual sporting director again. But at the moment, it feels like there's enough people around the place at that executive level that can do the kind of job. But that being said, it is a stunning development because when I speak to people that were at Carrington, he was at the under-21s game, for example, on the day of the Forest game. Then he went to the Forest. So business is normal for him. He can't have seen it coming, can he?

For a mutual decision. Well, yeah, certainly not in that sense. But I think he's, from what people say, he's an intelligent guy. I think he will have picked up issues that were developing. And he might also himself have...

felt that this isn't working out so by the end of it he might go okay fine if that's what your decision I'll go with it so you can kind of get round to this mutual agreement sort of terminology but I do think that it has shocked people at Carrington and where he was regarded as the main guy for sporting you know for leading the sporting side of things so you know there is a gap there

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Yeah, it's interesting. Andy, any sign of this when you sat down to interview Sir Jim Radcliffe for United We Stand? I've got so many questions here, Andy, but you go first because I find it fascinating, your interview. It was absolutely brilliant and there's lots of little hints, I think, but sorry. The only frustration was I only had 30, which are stretched to 36 minutes. I would have liked an hour and 36 minutes. So there's so many follow-up questions.

So the one part I did do follow-ups was about ticket prices with Fulham. And I'm like, no, no, no, no. Yes, no, yes, no. And there's loads of other bits. So when he talks about Ruben being a fantastic coach and Omar being a fantastic chief executive, what about Dan Ashworth? What about Jason Wilcox?

But I'm conscious right from 10 minutes in that the clock is ticking right down. But I still felt that I got a lot of good stuff from him. 100%. And to be fair, there was absolutely no questions out of bound. There was no changes at all. The only bit of that which...

of the conversation which didn't appear was my dad worked for a chemicals company and he went, oh yeah, we bought them. They were Mormons, weren't they? And I was like, yeah, yeah, they gave me a bursary to study journalism. And they were only based like 200 metres from where we are now in Carrington, which is an old chemicals area.

And everything else was in was was was as printed. And, you know, there was a huge pickup from it over the weekend. But yeah, ask me any questions. I didn't. He says there's going to be more changes. So we knew there were going to be more changes. I couldn't predict then that it was going to be Dan Ashworth.

You're always picking up fragments as a journalist. So before the Arsenal game, I'd tweet out a picture and say, I've just bumped into the king, right? Which I didn't bump into him. He was across the street from me and it was a public appointment. And a reader goes, oh, I've just bumped into Dan Ashworth on Mercer Street in London. So you think, okay, Dan Ashworth's in London and he's down for the Arsenal game. But no more than that. You don't think that leads you on to...

him departing the club. I didn't know Dan Ashworth said hello to him a couple of times, but he did and does have a good reputation, to be fair to him. Yeah. But yeah, ask away. Larry, before you do that, I'd urge any Manchester United supporter to go and buy the new United We Stand. Subscribe as well. Andy, how do they do that if they want to read this interview? I'm glad you said that, Ian, because we had a horrendous day on Saturday with the weather. Yeah.

I had nine lads outside the ground. I thought you might, yeah. It's just a hazard of the job, you know. It has been known to rain in Manchester once or twice, but it was the lads selling it, and I've got to thank them. They said it was in the top three worst ever.

I saw Bloomy's tweet about it. I mean, Bloomy's miserable anyway, so you're not going to get an accurate one from him. Bloomy's a diamond, don't be daft. I have people coming to me going, you know, what about this interview? Just buy it. Just read it. It's independent journalism. Yes. You know, I've seen this. No, no, no. You've read...

You've read a tabloid extract of it. There's a 4,000-word interview there, which is really easy to read. I get that most people are not at matches, but you can subscribe easily. You can download it digitally. It's really not difficult. It's like three clicks away.

and no it's not free my time's not free my print bills aren't free i can't take my printers listen we can't pay you this month but we're really popular you know it just doesn't just doesn't work like that it took a huge amount of time so tell them how they can get it then just just go to uwsonline.com and there's a link for subscriptions there two clicks and you can be reading it on your uh on your phone or uh

I prefer people to buy the printed ones because that's what I protect most but I get that you know it's also in newsagents just subscribe next 10 issues and at the games yeah but the games as well clearly you'll see the sellers at the game I'll be there on the street you know I think it's important do not leave it to the aggregators go and get the full thing that's what I did Andy I went in the rain in Storm Darragh because I thought I need to show solidarity here don't I these guys are out here Storm Burt finished now Storm Burt's over it's Storm Darragh now erm

Go on, Laurie, tell us your heroic story. Hit the wind up by the weekend. Heroic story. Listen, I had some change weighing me down, didn't I? So I was like, I need to get rid of this shrapnel. Laurie walked like 150 metres out of his way. So this is like climbing K2. So not only has he ventured to Portugal, right, he's managed to... I don't know if I told you about this time at Braga. But, you know, he used ropes, he had ice picks, and he managed to get to the top of Somat Busby Way and

buy a fanzine in person with a thing called money. I mean... You've got to be careful, though, in the wind and rain with that haircut, Andy. If he's not on the New Year's honours list for doing that, then I don't know who will be. Well done, mate. Give a word to your mate, King Charles, will you? I actually... This is really sad, but I actually wore walking boots just in case it got muddy. Where's the mud around Old Trafford? There's mud here. It's all concrete. I don't know where the logic came from. I just wanted secure... Right, let's get back on track.

What's your questions for Andy, Larry? I just thought it was fascinating and I agree. I don't want to go like, you know, reveal every quote because I think you have got to go and read the full thing and see how it flows and see what the little nuances are because I think that's important. But he said in it that we have made some mistakes at United. Our antennae hasn't been perfect, but it's been better than if we hadn't done the work at Nice and Lausanne. And I just wondered if, yeah, did you feel that

am I being unfair that he's sort of talking about Ashworth in his mind there or what do you think he's kind of referring to there? It could be Nice and Lausanne so I went to Nice in 2020 I've mentioned it on this pod several times I also said about too many chiefs what someone Manchester City had told me said that on the podcast I think he maybe thought there was too many people in place in May yeah too many appointments made I mean Nice I got told that agents just had their pants down and

they are getting it right. Nice, I think, are fifth in... And if you're Nice and you're fifth in Ligue 1, that is creditable. Nice, when Patrice Evra was there, was a second division club. Yeah, I think he's got a feeling for people, if that's fair to say. You know, it's... And he admits that football was not their industry. It's the chemical industry where they've done really well. But now they've expanded into retail companies

His way of saying it was it takes time, but by learning by their mistakes at Nice and Lusanne, that puts them in a better position for Manchester United. They basically have run football clubs.

They're going to make mistakes here. They have made mistakes here. Their ticket prices are a mistake in my opinion and I told him to his face and we had a disagreement about that and that's fine. People are allowed to disagree. The answer to that didn't seem fully, you know, I don't know, what was it like in the room? It was almost like he was kind of conceding that he got it wrong but then again, is he actually going to

change it this season, but if you kind of laid a marker down for next season, do you think? I hope so, Laurie. I hope that you don't put this on your own doorstep and I think ticket prices will go up at all clubs, but I don't think they should be as aggressive as they were in the mid-90s and in the early years of the Glazers. It's how dictatorial it was though as well, I think, that's really got

So that's the main point that seems to have stuck in people's throats who are involved, that there's no consultation before a decision like this is taken.

There's recognised fan groups at Old Trafford who should have been consulted with and were not. I don't agree with this Fulham idea that Manchester United ticket shouldn't be cheaper than Fulham and I said that to him. I stood outside Craven Cottage last November and protested with Fulham fans that their price rises. Fulham is a very different area to Manchester.

The demographics, the average wages, the percentage of tourists who go to Fulham matches. The fact that the placards are laminated in those protests.

They were. I mean, but I'm also mindful of saying that I'm respectful that there's people who live on estates in Hammersmith who have not got a lot of money, who have supported Fulham for years. London might have money, but there's estates. One of the things I love about London is you've got social housing, cheap bar jar with multi-million pound houses. So you can't whitewash Fulham either. I feel that ticket prices is an area I know well. I...

get the executive tickets bring a lot of money and I don't really have a massive issue with that I don't have an issue with Manchester United having a million sponsors globally but if you start hitting hardcore supporters who go to every game then I've got a massive issue with that last question on this if I can and it's something that sort of stuck in my mind since we had that that short briefing with him last season I think it was before the Tottenham game what was he like Andy?

He's pretty confident. I think he's pretty personable. I don't think you get to that level in life by being socially awkward. And I would say the same about Ed Woodward, who history doesn't remember well as a Manchester United fan. You've got to have good social skills. I quite like the fact that he's straight to the point. There's no bullshit with him. And clearly he's done very well.

in business by being like that equally I have no need to fear him either and I'm not a staff member under him like a lot of people are where I'm worried about my job I can tell him exactly how I feel and I also feel that

I've done United We Stand for so long and I just had loads of my readers and people coming up to me at games who were really angry and I felt it was important to convey that. This isn't an ad agency or focus group in London saying maybe you should consider this. I'm like, look, this is how people feel. Is it encouraging that he wanted to address that as well? Because that was the point of the interview, wasn't it? I think it's encouraging that he agreed to see me. I mean, I went into the room thinking I'm going on a Zoom call here and I walked into a room and...

Omar was there and Dave Brailsford was there and Jim Ratcliffe was there. Good that you see me. One of the criticisms of the Glazers was that they didn't communicate and he's communicated with me. And there's another thing here. Here's one thing throughout the interview is I want Manchester United to be successful again. The club is losing a fortune. There has to be changes. There has to be. Losing 100 million a year.

But do not make those changes, in my opinion, on your general admission ticket prices in certain areas of the ground. You've got to keep the hardcore and it's got to grow the top line. I get why the costs have been being cut as well. But it was a it was a robust and frank discussion. And I've got no problem with that. I think that's exactly what a fanzine should do. And it's exactly what a journalist should do.

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OK, let's talk about Manchester United 2, Nottingham Forest 3 then. Before the game, we definitely should mention this because it was a lovely tribute from the club to Kaf Phipps who passed away

last week we recorded our last podcast before we heard about that news but obviously I managed still to be able to mark her passing at the start of the last pod with a little line from us all she was a remarkable person and I think that reflected in Manchester United's tributes to her for someone who's had the sort of roles at the club they'll

The last role that she had was the receptionist at the training ground for her passing to be marked with black armbands, a minute's applause and also the players doing their own personal tribute to CAF was amazing.

absolutely fitting but also unprecedented and it just shows Andy how much everyone at the club thought of her your article that you did in conjunction with Danny Taylor and a few of us on The Athletic was lovely as well and again just underlined the strength of feeling for this

incredible character institution i called her i think that's the only way you can sum up how important she was really gaff was top i love it that you've got people like beckham and gigs going to earlham earlham's like a soulful overspill back back from the day and turning up in the big cars i've actually had people going some of them former players do not know how to park a car so they're all going to see calf because because they love calf and everyone loves calf and

I love the fact she was a normal person who didn't want the fuss. So that meant that she got even more fuss. And she did treat everyone the same. You know, it's pretty daunting for a young 20-year-old journalist to turn up at Manchester United. And she'd put you at ease. And she'd argue with Sir Alex Ferguson because there was no agenda for her. She knew what her job was. She was absolutely fine doing her job.

She really cared about people. She always asked about people. She had a proper soft spot for Diego Forlan. The more evidence I gather about this, it seems that every female in the world feels the same about Diego Forlan. But lovely. I thought the club handled it really well. I spoke to Eric Ten Haag about her on Friday and gigs and Olly Gunner. And they just all come back with stories. And Danny's piece is brilliant in the athletic. And I know that Carl and Laurie were gathering some stories

quotes on that as well. Nice, nice, nice. On a miserable, miserable day, that was the highlight of it. Yeah, it was a miserable day. Laurie, one of the things that stood out from the piece was over 55 years at Manchester United, longer than anyone ever by...

the club's reckoning anyway. I know someone that actually started before Andy was even born, or at least started your association with Man United. Before he was born, be kind. It's a long time, it's a long time. I mean, Samad Busby's last signing is kind of like the famous sort of way to describe it as well, I think, something like that. But I,

I only had a little bit of interaction with her because it's difficult at Carrington as a journalist now because you don't go into that main section. I think the press conference room used to be by the reception, so I think maybe you'd have more interaction. But on the times that we were invited in for Europa League games when they used the bigger hall, she's just a very warm person, a really nice person to chat to. You'd have a conversation, you'd be like, I feel like I've known you for a long time here and this is my first conversation.

and I was really fortunate actually on the train back from Arsenal that Zara Connolly who works for MU TV she was on the same train and just by coincidence she came and sat next to me and we had a chat and she's a great girl Zara and the news that Kath had died happened whilst we were on the train and I was like are you okay and she was like you know upset clearly because she'd actually got to know Kath pretty well through her time working at United and she told me this really great story that didn't actually end up making it into Danny's piece but it's a

there's loads in danny's piece it's a absolutely beautiful tribute um but she was just saying to me that like one day she came in with like a hot water bottle maybe looking a bit fatigued and and basically she said you know that kath usually would say you know drop a cup of tea and then you'd end up making it for her because you know that's that's how it was and she said do you want a cup of tea and she's like all right yeah no i'll go make it and she said no no i'll get it today you know you're looking i can tell something's wrong and she's like you're okay you're having a a

bit of about aren't you and she could tell detected that Zara's got colitis and she and I think Kath has had her own problems with you know irritable bowel diseases and so they just had a lovely chat but that kind of thing Zara was saying that she could detect when somebody was having a bit of a bad day and just what they needed in that moment and then from there they kind of really honest open conversations.

Yeah, it sums it up that she treated Zara how she would treat some of the major stars. I mean, one of my favourite memories of CAF was the day that Ole Gunnar Solskjaer was appointed as interim manager at Manchester United. We were all there waiting to do an interview and literally the first thing that Ole Gunnar Solskjaer does when he walks through the front door of the first team building at Carrington is hand a huge bar of Norwegian chocolate over to CAF.

which was something he did as a player as well. It was Cass' favourite chocolate from Norway. I don't suppose she sampled them all, but that was the particular brand that Olly would always bring in. And this smile, right? So she was absolutely chuffed. Not only that...

Oli was back, but also the fact that Oli had remembered Kath and remembered the chocolate that she enjoyed. And it seemed to just emanate from her and it like infiltrated its way into anyone who walked through the front door. That was us as journalists, but also some of the first team players arriving for work. And if you think back to that point, it was a pretty miserable place Carrington at the end of Jose Mourinho's time in charge. And this little gesture from Solskjaer and the way that Kath reacted to it, I'm convinced...

had some effect in turning the mood around and it becoming such a positive opening for Oli as interim manager because Cass' energy...

just spread its way across everyone who who walked through that door um she was brilliant I went there last day of term 2022 to interview Varan she was there loads of staff were leaving I took a picture of her I tweeted it and I saw her the next day I said that's sweet look at the response to this she was absolutely buzzing she got her family look at this I'm on the internet and she was showing everybody look look that's me I'm on the internet she used to give me grief

because I was a journalist and not a footballer. She'd be like, how come, why are you doing this? Why aren't you on the bloody field playing with your family history? I am a long, long, long way short of this level. Go on then, go and sit down, drop a cup of tea.

And just one more thing actually that wasn't in the piece has come from Danny Taylor this morning who shared an email from Louis van Gaal that he's got back about Cath. It came after the piece had been published, but I think this is quite a nice space to share it. So it is a sad period for Man U, especially because of the death of Cath. If there was one person who supported me in my time at Man U, it was Cath. She always came in with a smile and kept the mail for me. She was actually my PA. In my last season, we won the FA Cup and who sent me a nice summary of photos from the final? Cath.

I will always remember her as my sweet and smiley PA. Rest in peace, Cath. Fabulous. Right, unfortunately, let's talk about the football. Carl, what did you make of it? Good sound. This is why not too long ago I said this is going to take seasons, not weeks, and why we probably shouldn't be talking about qualifying for Europe.

Bad set piece defending. Again. A really, really disappointing performance from Andre Onana in that, I mean, he was good against Everton in a game that wasn't televised and then he gets put on Saturday primetime and he does that and you're like, oh no, no, no, no, no. No, because you don't want that narrative to build again, do you? No, you do not. There's been two or three weeks where there's been a lot of conversation about Onana really turning it around and putting it together and then you get that sort of blunder.

And then just the third goal where United don't have the necessary bite. And it's just a really disappointing performance. Maybe I'm being kind. I thought some of the reaction to it, Laurie, afterwards about United being terrible and a huge step backwards and all this sort of stuff. I kind of felt like...

Actually, they were just really sloppy goals to concede. And obviously that in itself is a concern. Another goal from a set piece, a goalkeeping mistake with the second, a mix-up with the third. Really soft goals.

And obviously if you can see three soft goals like that, you're giving yourself a mountain to climb and it kind of undermines everything else about the game. I'm not sure that the performance was quite that bad, but am I being kind? Uh, you're being kind, but you're allowed to be kind, you know? Um, and I just don't want to be depressed again, really. Someone has to be kind. Yeah. Smiling through the defeats. Uh,

I think it's fair in the sense that this is new. Ruben Amrit is trying different things and he

He's rotating a lot, so you've got, I mean, obviously taking off Bruno Fernandes with 15 minutes to go is unusual. He answered that question in the press conference afterwards by saying he was tired and if it became a transition game, you don't want Bruno having to run back and Mason Mount can score a goal as well. I think you want it to be a situation where you can take players out and put them in and there's not this kind of big focus and obviously I'm making it a bit of a focus on this occasion. No, no, but that particular player being taken out at that particular stage, jarred.

didn't it because we're just not used to it whether it was the right decision or the wrong decision it was a great goal that he'd scored he was involved in the first goal he created the first goal with that pass so he was doing things that were unsettling Nottingham Forest and yeah so you thought he was going to be the best path to a goal and equaliser so

yeah but I suppose that's part of his philosophy and he's setting out his stall sort of early on but yeah the goals United conceded you know seven goals now from corners this season no team has conceded more and I know maybe that's a bit skewed by the couple from Arsenal as well but you know it's obviously something's not right there we've got Martinez up against six foot five inch Milenkovic and he's just trying to wrestle him he's not

trying to jump and you've got De Ligt there that's obviously his own look like and he's too late to arrive to the ball so that needs to be addressed and then yeah the Onana one just seems like a total mess up and even the second one well the third one rather Martinez and Joro gets beaten De Ligt what's he doing?

particularly soft in that part as well. So there's about four players we've named that. Forrest were bullying United at that point, weren't they? Forrest were like, we're just going to physically impose ourselves on you and United couldn't handle it. I liked some of the football. I agree with the point on Bruno, I thought his goal was terrific. The defence, especially for the first and the third goal, you're going to get punished by a good side. And United still...

are attackable that first goal was just too awful to watch um delo's positioning uh martinez's lack of physicality or or not jumping we see the film so often and i'm struck between like actually this is a mid-table man united side and then i see parts of it where i thought united played well in for good chunks of the first half and you think this is exciting this is good

For years, when United were brilliant, we'd get a bit bored by it, sound ridiculous, and suddenly we've got all this tension and jeopardy. Oh, no, yes, we're equal now, we're level.

But following on from the defeat at Arsenal means that Amarim's world has truly popped now. I still like his style. I like how comfortable he is in the media. We spoke earlier in the podcast about charisma, but needs must with a lot more players. And he's rotating a huge number of players, whether that's for them to get their chance or

is one thing. Remember Brian Robson coming on this podcast when we were in Tanzania and he's just like, you cannot beat a settled side. Yeah. You also cannot have a settled side when you've got eight or nine games in a month. Well, no, and I asked Amram about that in the press conference before the game because I was intrigued to know whether he'd got closer to his picture of what the first choice XI would be, what his first choice team would be match to match. And he said he had. But clearly, you know, the physical difference

that are being given to the selections at the moment are still the things that are moving all these pieces around so much. I mean, Kyle, the one thing that encouraged me about watching United lose on Saturday was the fact that

They look dangerous. They look like they can score goals again. They look like there's confidence in the attack once more. If United conceded three goals in the past, it would be a 3-0 defeat more often than not, in a way. Whereas this felt like there was even a chance of them getting back in it at 3-1 down, which, you know, it didn't transpire in the end. But there seems far more threat about Manchester United going forward. I agree. United are playing with conviction.

in a lot of phases. There's two or three bits of play, particularly when they're building up from the back, where you get the sense that these players believe in what they're doing. And there were parts of this year when I've watched United and I did not get that impression. Whereas, okay, some of the sloppiness will come from unease, come from the fact that they are not used to doing this 3-4-2-1. I think the set piece is,

eras right now are, or at least against Arsenal, at least against Nottingham Forest, what you're seeing is they look to be defending in a hybrid zonal man marking thing. Well, Arsenal in particular had players in one zone and they'd flood into another zone at will. And then players, you know, United's defenders were in half and half of, oh, do I engage and go into that zone and follow my man or do I just stay where I'm stood? So that's something that needs to get worked out. I think the lack of ball carrying is,

from wing back might be a bit of an issue because Ahmad seems to be the only real threat who can go on the outside at this point in time so the idea you get the sense that these players believe in the idea you also get the sense that these players haven't quite mastered everything to it and it'll take a little bit more churn I think everything we've seen this weekend both from from

what's going on with Ashworth and what we saw against Nottingham Forest is this is going to be the era of churn at Manchester United in that there's just going to be a lot of new faces coming in and out until they figure out what they actually want to do and then things will settle. How long that will take, I do not know. No, the next step of the churn is Victoria Pilsen away in the Europa League on Thursday night. Let's do a quick preview to that with a little bit of local knowledge.

This is Karel Dvarov from Czech Canal+ Sport. It may sound surprising, but Manchester United are about to face a very competitive opponent. Certainly not an easy task for a team trying to bounce back from consecutive defeats. Viktoria Plsen has risen since 2010 and became one of the regular title contenders in the fast-improving Czech League. Since then, they managed to qualify to the Champions League three times already.

which is really impressive. This time they have an impressive record of 25 games unbeaten in the UEFA Cup games, if we count only regular times, of course. They can mostly rely on very functional tactics from a very experienced coach, Miroslav Koubek, who is able to outwit biggest clubs, Sparta and Slavia.

And they do it quite regularly. This season is not an exception as Plzen holds second place having a six points gap on the third Sparta, which is quite decent after 18 games.

The club offers a decent amount of young talent, I would say, but the eyes are mostly on one striker. The goals come from attacking midfielder Pavel Schulz, who is currently truly on fire and can score basically from anywhere, anyhow. You can just see his last game against Carvina.

Of course, everyone sane enough understands the qualitative difference between the Czech side and the English giant, but thanks to the great European record and home advantage, there is a lot of hope around the fixture. There is one name in Plzen's squad that might sound familiar to the English audience and that is Matej Vidra, former championship best striker. He has managed to come back from the serious knee injury and now is back to business.

Brilliant, Carol. Thank you very much for doing that. Carol, like you've mentioned, worked for the Czech version of DAZN. He's the second most famous Carol who works regularly for that broadcaster because Carol Paborski is often a guest with Carol, pitch side at Old Trafford. And it was fascinating to me the other week where there was a whole host of Manchester United legends by the side of the pitch doing...

different roles for different broadcasters from all over the world. Their names were being shouted repeatedly and no one recognised Karol Poborski because if you've seen a picture of him lately, there's no long curly flowing locks anymore. He's a bit more chiselled, well-dressed,

wearing a pair of spectacles usually. But brilliant. Yeah, thank you, Carl, for doing that. And Carl, it gives an insight into how tricky this match might actually be. We're sort of talking about United struggling a little bit in the league. There's a Manchester derby to come, but this is a hurdle as well. Absolutely. I'll be heading off to check you out for this game as well. I love the fact that Carol brought up

as well. Pavel Shute. He's got goals in him with a name like that. I know, he's great. Apparently he's a player that will be set to sign for one of the clubs in Europe's top five leagues soon. I've also been

talking to other Czech journalists my friend Jan from a Czech football magazine recommends we keep an eye on Lukas Serv who is a very annoying type of player and he also speaks very very highly of the stadium Andy I know you're going have you done any research into how big that stadium is right now I've not even had my breakfast today I know I'm going to Prague on Thursday

I know absolutely nothing. This is probably the worst I've been in terms of preparation ahead of the game. I don't know anything about the stadium, the city. It's where Pils is from, the beer, isn't it? Yeah, it is where Pils is from, Pils and beer. Do you reckon we'd get into trouble if we had eight glasses each before the game? Might improve your podcasting.

No, my research will begin after this, but I noticed the first line of that interview and cheers for sorting that out Ian, it's like, this is a competent team. Oh no. Competence is all you need right now. They also play through at the back, so that'll be quite an interesting matchup if they go shape for shape. Pilden's manager has been compared to Gasparini at Atalanta in that he's perhaps on the senior side,

but is known for getting a lot out of a little from his players. You can get an extra 10 to 15, maybe 20% out of players that perhaps haven't been there or thereabouts in the league. So this is...

To borrow an Andy Mitten term, Victoria Pilsen are a decent side. I love the fact we're going there, that we're in Europe and we're going to these type of places. I think it's brilliant. Remember United played in Prague about 2006. Alan Smith had signed and the whole away end were asking Alan Smith to kiss the badge because it has been a really controversial signing. I don't think Alan Smith ever did that.

because Leeds fans would not have appreciated that but yeah bring it on and there's a really famous game in the 80s between United and Ducla Prague as well I remember that as a kid listening to it on the radio and it's such a big deal sounded so glamorous that United were playing a team we'd never heard of before so bring it on I like the Europa League but

got to keep on winning in it because I've got my flights and hotel booked in Bilbao in May. Yeah, they definitely need to pull the socks up, don't they, and continue to climb the table. Unbeaten though in the Europa League, so we should take some encouragement from that, yeah. Laurie's yawning, I mean it's hard work when you're on Match of the Day too late on Sunday nights and then you've got to do a podcast early on Monday morning even when...

Troy Deeney doesn't agree with you. But anyway, we'll finish it there on Talk of the Devils. If you want to get in touch with us, as always, you can use the email address devilspod at theathletic.com. And we'll speak to you again after our trip to Pilsen. Hopefully Andy and Carl haven't had eight lagers by the time we record that particular edition. But who knows? It might improve things. It might make us feel better depending on what happens on the pitch. But we'll speak to you then. Thank you, Andy. Thank you, Carl. Thank you, Laurie. What an episode. Thanks for listening. Bye-bye.

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