Bilbao or bust: Utd crash out of FA Cup
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The Athletic FC Podcast Network. This is Talk The Devils, the athletics podcast dedicated to Manchester United. We're recording on Monday morning, the morning after Manchester United's exit from the FA Cup with defeat on penalties to Fulham. And we'll ask the question, where exactly do United go from here? Spain's the answer.

in the short term anyway. Europa League knockout football starts on Thursday away in San Sebastian. We'll preview that game as well. And we'll also cheer ourselves up a little bit by talking about the victory in the FA Youth Cup at Arsenal on Friday night as well. Karl and Andy are with us here. They were both at Old Trafford on Sunday. Laurie will join us a little later to talk about that win at the Emirates. But Karl...

Immediate reaction, sat here this morning, obviously hugely disappointing. And yeah, it's left us all soul-searching again a little bit, hasn't it? Yeah, that was a deflating defeat. That's now reduced us to Bilbao or Bost. For this season to be moderately successful, or anything less than an unmitigating disaster, Manchester United need to win the Europa League. And at this point in time, the performance against Fulham, while there were some...

just about encouraging shoots I wouldn't have Manchester United as the favourites to win the Europa League

It

It hurts. Going out the FA Cup since I've been a child has really, really hurt. Some are worse than others. Some affect fans more than players. I remember Patrice Evra fuming at going out against Portsmouth because he would have won the treble or he hoped he would in 2008.

Remember as a kid losing to Forest in 89 when it was similar to now, we were miles away in the league. And it hurts. And it hurts to go out on penalties. It hurts because United got back into the game. I've got some friends who are Fulham fans and they're like, we absolutely deserve this because United beaten Fulham twice this season. And we can't really say that about many teams. But as Carl said, it's now...

Europa League or bust it's been a dreadful season there were some green shoots as Carl said and

But it hurts. It really does. I'm gutted. What was it like being in the stadium, Karl? Yeah, I mean, it was good. So there was a protest beforehand about ticket prices. Stretford End was very vocal about how they feel about the Glazers. Sell United and F off home was one of the chants early on in the game. They continued their chanting foot towards Joshua Xerxe any time he did a bit of skill. And also...

He and De Ligt were the last two players off the pitch and down the tunnel at full-time. And the remaining Stratford Enders gave it. Oh, Joshua Xerxes as well. The atmosphere was good. This is a team that is trying. And this is a very, very, very patient team.

Stretford end and other parts of the ground that want this team to do better however you can't help but shake this creeping suspicion that trying isn't going to be enough between now and the end of the season

No, I know exactly what you mean by that. Joshua Xerxe as well, Andy. I mean, if we're talking about bright spots yesterday, there was Xerxe's performance. Matthias De Ligt gave absolutely everything to try and get Manchester United through in the FA Cup. He was absolutely incredible. I mean, he was limping his way

through extra time and still managed the energy to sprint and fight. And I thought he was absolutely fantastic yesterday. Chido Obi was a highlight, obviously off the bench as well. And there's a dynamic there that Amarin maybe needs to think a little bit more about with the strikers.

But just in terms of Xerxe, I just felt sorry for him again because he has been better. And even yesterday, you know, there was real signs that there is a player in there. One of the criticisms of United is that they're too slow. And he showed quick thinking to move on to a lovely ball from Bruno Fernandes. He set up Obi as well. I think you're totally right about De Ligt. He kept hitting those 50-yard passes three times in the first half. It's like they've been working on him.

And he was doing well, but then he gave a ball away, which led to a yellow and a free kick for Fulham. Terrific tackle from De Ligt on Pereira, about 20 minutes from time. So they will be two positives. I think Xerxe is still coming out of that emotional battering that he had against Newcastle at the end of last year. I do see bits where I'm encouraged by him. And yet I've read some commentaries this morning, obviously,

One in a major tabloid paper saying he's one of the worst players to ever play for Manchester United. And I thought, I just read that and I bristled a little bit. It's unnecessary. Well, he's in his first season in England. He's still a young lad. He's had good games, he's had bad games, but he brings something different to that team to any other player. I like the fact that the fans have really, really got behind him from the lower home to Newcastle to a high of...

Fans singing his name at Liverpool away. And if you can play well at Liverpool away, and he has played well in some matches, then I'm not giving up on Joshua Xerxe just yet. Not at all. I quite enjoy some of his movements and some of his flicks, but he's playing in a struggling team where confidence is low. And for all the support from the fans, which is great,

And for all the willing to do well, which is great, you wonder what the technical limitations are of this team? Yeah, I think with Xerxe, we did all have our concerns. We wouldn't be being honest if we sat here and said we never doubted him or we never thought that

Manchester United may have made a mistake in signing him last summer, but I think you've got to give him huge credit, Carl, for the way he's emerged from those doubts that we all had. The player that he's beginning to show, it feels like he's being used more correctly in the role that he's played the last few weeks, along with the striker. Some of the link-up play with Obi and extra time, for example, you could see what he was trying. It wasn't quite coming off always, but those relationships that are so important for Manchester United's attack to improve...

It felt like yesterday at least and in recent times that Xerxes has been the centre of all of that. Yeah, there are glimmers with Joshua Xerxes. That's the right word. Glimmers. I think that's the right word. Ruben Amarin said he looks slimmer, his physical condition is better. I said before...

The ball was kicked at the start of the season. Xerxes is not going to be your football player to get your 10 league goals. He doesn't spend anywhere near enough time in the penalty area. He doesn't take anywhere near enough shots. The idea, I think, was United wanted to get a striker in at a time when strikers were expensive. You bring in Xerxes to hold the ball up, do a lot of flicks, link play and whatnot. And then your wide forwards, so players like Garnaccio, like Rashford, like Ahmad,

was supposed to get on their bikes, hit those through balls that Xerxe was going to flick on from, and then hopefully they'd get more goals this league season. What's happened is...

Well, one of those players is no longer there. One of those players is better when he comes off the bench. And one of those players right now looked to be the best player this season, but unfortunately he's injured for the remainder of the season. So Xerxe is trying to figure things out as we go along. He is linking play really well. What you want him to do now is get on the ball, spin and face the opposite net. You want to see a couple more runs in behind Xerxe.

I asked Amarin in the post-match press conference if he thought there's enough goals in the squad and he said they're trying to find a way to create more situations to create more danger because at the moment it's mostly set pieces this is really hard for every single forward at Manchester United and I'm sure we'll get onto some of these other players in a bit but Xerxes Xerxes is trying his best and he's doing well and I think that hard work is being appreciated by the fan base however

I watched him collapse to the turf after Leno saved his penalty and he put his shirt over his head. So he's got to pick himself up again because there's not enough time to turn this around. He has to put all that outside and out of mind because he's got a big game on Thursday. Yeah, I wonder sometimes whether it's a blessing or a curse to have something to bounce back for straight away. I've asked that question of players many, many times down the years and people will always stand there on record and say, yeah, it's the best thing possible. Let's go again. Let's pick ourselves up.

120 minutes yesterday, a penalty shootout, the disappointment of losing. Playing with 10 men against Ipswich. Yeah, that too, exactly. It all adds up, doesn't it? I was going to say then, the emotional turmoil of missing the penalty and obviously Victor Lindelof would be

be feeling similar things this morning as well. A little bit more experience maybe, but I'm sure he'll be hurting just as much. Bruno Fernandes as well, Andy. He's a player I probably should have mentioned when I was listing the bright spots from yesterday. Gave absolutely everything once again. And he just obviously is central to everything that Manchester United do at the moment. And that sort of jars with a theme that we've seen develop over the last week.

It's developed into the mainstream, but it's been there constantly. We've talked about it on the podcast. Former players criticising current players. Roy Keane very pointedly criticising Bruno Fernandes. Last week, we then had Wayne Rooney criticising Ruben Amarin, calling him naive for saying that the ambition of the team is to win the Premier League title after going out of the FA Cup yesterday. What do you make of this?

This whole sort of conversation that seems to be constant at the moment when the team is playing as bad as they did and the past is as good as it was. There's a huge chasm to make up for this conversation to go away, isn't there? Well, first point on Fernandes, that was a superb finish to equalise. He is the man of the moment. He was in the centre, although he dropped back when Ugarte...

went off. But even early on, he took a touch and had a shot on target after 10 or 11 minutes. And I think he's Manchester United's best player. We've put him on the front cover of United We Stand and it just says, well, at least we've still got Bruno. And that's how it feels. There's so much negativity about at least we've got one player because what happens if he was to go as well? And then your second point about the pundits is

There's two very clear sides to this. Pundits are being asked to do the job. Now, some of them lads, I spoke to them in the 90s and noughties, and they said to me they would never become pundits. And now they are pundits. And they're very high profile pundits. It drives the players mad.

Because it's direct criticism, they feel that it just feeds into this negativity, that it doesn't help them at all. And they're like, well, wait a minute. Yeah, sorry, I'm not good enough to be a treble winner. What do you want me to do about it? Just becomes a Dan overnight. So there's two sides to it.

Equally, Manchester United fans are saying exactly the same as the pundits. They are frustrated as well. But we live in an environment where social media just whips everything up into a frenzy. Negativity tends to do much better than positivity. You can see if you're watching someone have a meltdown, there's a lot of voyeurism in it because, yeah, look at him, he's lost it. Do you remember the Arsenal fan TV a few years ago? Oh, yeah. They were doing well when Arsenal were doing bad.

And a lot of people, and I'm not one of them, by the way, but a lot of people like watching this stuff. A Manchester City fan came up to me on Saturday and said, listening to this podcast was his guilty pleasure. And I'm like, right. And he was a nice lad. I'm like, okay, fair enough. Did you say thank you to that? I don't know how you respond exactly. No, I didn't. You can't say what you said back. That was shared in the WhatsApp group. Yeah, maybe it should stay in there.

It's really, really difficult. Now, fans who then moan about players moaning, you end up with a situation where people moan about moaning and there's lots of moaning going on. There's about four or five layers of moaning going on. There's lots going on. And I think United fans are world-class moaners. We're now moaning about those layers of moaning. About the moaning. I had letters to the fanzine a month before the win in Moscow saying Ferguson doesn't know what he's doing.

Some fans will never, ever, ever be happy at any football club. Watching football is an outlet for their moaning. And it's an outlet for all the frustration in the life. And I've always said Manchester United is this big sponge just to soak in all of this anger from people who are permanently fuming. My dad was moaning in Barcelona the morning after the treble. He was never, ever going to be happy there.

with Manchester United because it wasn't like it was in his day. So there's a generational thing here as well. Now, this team are so far off

Being as good as some of the teams of Europe, it's like the Liverpool legends of the 90s, isn't it? As Liverpool combusted, you would have players like Alan Hansen and Mark Lawrenson saying that, you know, Don Hutchinson wasn't as good as Kenny Dalgleish and doesn't really help Don Hutchinson, who's an honest pro, trying his best.

The TV companies, they know what works. The social media companies know what works. I think all we can do on this podcast is give balance, and I think we do. It's hard, and...

There have been two or three times when Roy Keane talks about a Man United player, and this is my personal interpretation. I don't think it's actually a criticism. I think it's just Roy Keane explaining to you how he watches football. When Roy Keane is saying a captain should lead via action, that's not a criticism of Bruno Fernandes' action. That's Roy Keane explaining to you how he took on his job as a Manchester United manager. And this is why Roy Keane is, to my eyes, still...

At least, well, in my living memory, the best Manchester United captain of all time. There's also probably why Roy Keane is now more of a pundit than he is a manager. Because he cannot see or cannot compute the idea that you can only give 95% on a football field. Because Roy Keane gave 120% to the point where literally his legs couldn't do it anymore. So I didn't think that was...

a criticism of Bruno Fernandes but more what Roy Keane was doing however in the post-match game against in the post-match press conference it was a very surreal feeling because Ruben Amarin had done a press conference to the BBC where he said the goal is to win the Premier League Wayne Rooney is on BBC broadcast saying Amarin's post-match press conference was naive and then a different press conference well it would have been his interview wasn't it his post-match interview so you've got a post-match interview to the BBC from Amarin what's

Rooney's responded to that and then his post-match press conference, Rayne Rooney's just said this about you on the TV. And then Amarant's had to answer that, which then creates another layer of moaning. And it's, this is what happens when your football team is not very good on the field.

where there is no where so Manchester United are bad and they are bad in a boring way the formation isn't going to change because Amarant has decided what formation is going to change Manchester United aren't going to score goals because Manchester United aren't going to score goals and that the reasons why United aren't going to score goals is not going to change between now and the end of the season because they're not going to get new strikers in and that's out for the rest of the season there's very very little you can do to change that

aren't going to be very good at set pieces because, well, you can write a whole big thing about why Man United aren't very good at defending set pieces and why they're weak to second balls. So they're bad, but in a way that remains static. And if you have to fill out the back page of a newspaper or you have to fill out 30 minutes of a YouTube broadcast or a TV show and you have to talk about Man United, you've got to talk about something. And that means... Look at us. Look at us. Yeah. I think...

I thought that Amarin's comment as, I'm the one who's managing here, what I think is more relevant to any pundit, that is factually correct because he's the one who picks the team. I know it irritates him. The problem with that though, Andy, is that fans watching that broadcast will feel far more of an emotional connection at this point with Wayne Rooney than Reuben Amarin. He's right. His opinion is far more valid and far more relevant

Wayne Rooney's at this point but the relationship that fans have with these pundits mean that those comments are taken on board that they're listened to because of what those players did for United and I understand that and we get it in journalism so I will interview someone who's popular great interview no it's not

but because he's a popular person, great interview. You interview someone who's not popular, that's rubbish that. Well, actually, it's miles better than the one just because I've done one with a popular player. So there's a lot of popularity contests going on here. There's two Wayne Roonies. There's Wayne Rooney, the world-class footballer who's one of the best players I've ever seen for Manchester United. And there's Wayne Rooney, the manager.

So if Amarim was being really nasty, he could turn around and go, well, wait a minute. Why should I listen to someone who's just been sacked by Plymouth, who was unable to get them out the relegation zone at a championship club following a very turbulent and unsuccessful time at Birmingham City, following a time in America where things didn't go as he would hoped. So they get annoyed because people who in their eyes have failed as football managers have

And all opponents have tried to be football managers. Roy Keane led a very good Sunderland team out of the championship around 06. But ask Gatwick fans what they think of Roy Keane. They'll give you a very, very different opinion. Well, we saw that in Amarant's first game in charge, didn't we? After the game, yeah. We saw that. So...

Amarim said it's very easy to be a pundit. You can pick across everything, but you're not dealing with all the situations that the manager is dealing with. Some which will be public, some which will not be public. He's probably dealing with 40 different issues. I remember seeing a lot of Gary Neville when he was at Valencia. I knew the mess he was trying to pick apart and improve and doing his very best to. And most of it didn't come out publicly.

And he ended up losing his job and he,

I did his first interview after that and he said, I would have done it differently. I would have set up tactically. I wonder whether Ruben Amorim, if he was to lose his job tomorrow, would say, well, wait a minute, I should have done it a bit differently. Because David Moyes also said, if I'd known I would have only had nine months, I would have done things differently. So Amorim seems to be completely backed to change Manchester United's style of football, to do it his way. We know how good it can be because we've seen his sporting team change.

And I think there's a real sentiment within the pub of just forget how good we used to be. This is now. We've got to move on with the times. They're sick of seeing the legends saying how bad we are now. But them legends also made United great. Ferguson, he was like, I want to build this club to be a powerhouse forever. He's even been a target the last 24 hours. Yeah.

Rooney and Keane, etc., Neville, etc., will be really hurting at what Manchester United have become because they helped build it right up. And it's been knocked down now, not fully to the ground. So the fans are just left bewildered. And when they see the pundits talking, they're like, yeah, that's what me and my mates say down in the pub, but doing it on national television...

then creates back page headlines it's hard it's hard because Manchester United aren't very good right now and there are objective things you cannot argue with this team doesn't score enough goals this team is weak when defending this team is 14 and out of the FA Cup and League Cup there you go right you can't change that and regardless of whether you're former Manchester United legend or pro if you're asked on TV what do you think of Manchester United now you have to start with those things and

and then even the subjective things are really hard it's very hard to argue that Amrin has improved this team marginally if you go into the statistics and really get into the weeds you can pick up two or three things that have got better since Ruud van Nistelrooy's interim stint but it's really hard to talk positively about Manchester United and because this is Manchester because this is the world's biggest football club the world's

supposedly was supposed to be the world's richest football club supposed to be this commercial juggernaut because there are I mean literature says there are 1.1 billion followers now because that's modern football now your followers you're not fans but

because there are some people interested in Manchester United and, as Andy says, because you have rubberneckers. Hello to the Man City fans listening to this. Hello to the Fulham fans who are listening to this. Like, well done for winning on penalties. Good luck in the next round. Right? When City lose, maybe some United fans and Arsenal fans pop up. But if City keep losing, we're not going to keep reading because City aren't a big deal in that way. Whereas you know Liverpool fans are going to be there. We know what the Monday was like after that result against Anfield where many goals were scored. United are big...

And this creates this very, very toxic atmosphere. There's that word you are in Christ use for Barcelona in Torino, where it's not just your football club and it's not just the club staff, but it's also people that rely on the football club to go about their business, to go about their careers and also to go about their spare time. So it just creates this big, swirling mess of what Andy says. It's this huge mess.

pain and misery sponge right now. And a lot of people are doing well out of Manchester United being bad. I've said on this podcast, my phone lights up a little this morning. Andy, will you come on and talk about how bad Manchester United are? Can we just state though, this podcast feels like it's immune to that because whenever we've looked at the numbers of people listening, it always goes up when United are good. Always. So definitely shit sells, no doubt. And I'm sure some of the post-mortems that we've had and the group therapy sessions,

it feels like we've had over the years people have tuned in for, but unquestionably there is still that core of people who want to revel in the good things, not just the bad things. So more people, thank you. More people do absolutely do. I see it with sales of, of the fancy, you know, when everyone's down, you know, when people come out the ground and the team have been beaten, the movies, that's putting it politely. Yeah.

But Manchester United are so, so huge and not every fan will decipher what's well-intentioned, what is accurate. And some of them just get triggered emotionally. There's a lot of clickbait around. I think one reason people come to us is because we are pretty sensible and

And we're sort of, we're in the mix with everything. I'm even now getting fans of other clubs going, I hate Man United, but I'm sick of you being rubbish because I actually, I'm not going to watch the FA Cup now because you're out of it. I'm just not that interested in it.

Okay, so what role do you want us to play? Good but not that good? Bad but not that bad? Good enough that the derbies are interesting but not good enough that you can actually beat the rivals in the derby is the way people have described it to me. The City fan wants United to be good enough so there's intrigue

but not too good that they can, that we might be able to win the double. Well, it's that thing of building them up and then beating them down again, isn't it? Let them pick up the form and let us smash them to pieces in the derby. There's one other thing with the pundits. For their own credibility, they cannot go, as you touched on Ian, on television or on radio and pretend all is well when it's not. They've got to tell it as they see it.

equally I get plenty of them coming to me going what on earth's going on they're bewildered they're upset about it from a broadcaster perspective I do think at times there could be a bit more of what did you do when you were at this low what did you do in the moments in your career where it looked like you

you didn't know what was coming next and you didn't know where the next win was coming from. Some of these players, okay, have had absolutely incredible careers and won a lot of things, but they will have also had moments where they doubted themselves. Gary Neville's been very open talking about that at times recently where he said that around that sort of World Club Championship campaign that United had 2000, that that was like the lowest point of his career. From the outside, we would never think that and it's all relative. So,

There are more aspects to the conversation from my perspective than just saying how bad the team is because we kind of know how bad they are. Like we said, the league table tells us that. Anyway, Wednesday's Talk The Devils Extra is coming your way this week and this week

sort of topic is our focus because we're going to be talking about exactly how the leadership team transforms the current side into a team that can get to the top of English football again. Andy and I will be joined by Laurie and also the Athletic senior football writer, Oli Kay, to assess this situation. We want you involved with the conversation, of course. So get your thoughts in devilspod at theathletic.com or use the hashtag TOTDX on social media.

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Right, let's cheer ourselves up a little bit then. Let's pick ourselves up off the floor and look ahead to the first leg of our last 16 tie in the Europa League against Real Sociedad on Thursday night. And one player we've not talked about in that first section is Chido Obi, who nearly had an incredible impact off the bench against Fulham. He was still pretty positive, even without scoring to be fair, but he's not going to be eligible for this game. And this has come as a bit of a surprise on Monday. So,

United had the opportunity to register three new players for their A-list. That's the group of senior players for the knockout stages of the Europa League in early February. They decided to add three players who were Patrick Dorgu, Aidan Heaven, who you might expect, and the third was...

was Jack Fletcher and not Chido Obi. Basically, the list was done 10 days before he made his first team debut, so there's maybe a bit of defence there for this decision because his emergence has been so quick and so pointed in the last few weeks. Normally, players as well of Chido Obi's age would be eligible to play in the competition through the B-list. That's the younger group of players, but because he's not been at Manchester United for the last two years...

It means that he's not eligible to play in the Europa League for the rest of the competition. It's not just even for this tie against Real Sociedad. It will be the rest of the year. And Carl, you asked Ruben Amrim about swapping strikers following the game against Fulham. Do you think he even was aware of this at that point? I'm not sure. I certainly wasn't aware of the current situation in the Europa League squad. I mean, Amrim gave an interesting answer. I can read it out verbatim for you if you want.

So he said, anything can happen in the next games. We don't have much time to train, but we need to see the opposition, feel the momentum of the player physically. In this moment with a lot of games, because they're going to start playing Thursday, Sunday, anything can happen, but I will focus just on the next game. I'll choose the best players to win the next match. Now that didn't sound like a no. The youngster you're talking about is crazy.

to play so it's going to be Hoyland. That sounded genuinely as if he was going to assess everything and take it on a game-by-game basis. What do you think about this, Andy? I mean, there's going to be a lot of disappointed Manchester United fans. You can maybe understand the decision when you realise that it needed to be taken right at the start of February and he'd not played in the first team at that point but

He's been such a bright spark for people to sort of cling on to in the last few weeks. On the flip side, could it be a good thing that he doesn't play in the competition just to protect him a little bit? You have to remember he is only just 17.

He is very young, but Rasmus is the main man in the Europa League. What are you flapping about? He'll save the day. This isn't a Premier League game we're talking about. He's a man who's very comfortable in Europe, even last year in the Champions League. It would have been good to have the option, but it's happening pretty quickly. I didn't know that this rule existed and we are where we are with it.

Yeah, the thing is, Carl, he was so positive against Fulham. He's been so positive in his little cameos that he's had as well. I mean, that's saved from Leno. I think every Manchester United fan was absolutely willing...

What have you made of his emergence and the way that it feels like United could be relying on him really?

I'm quite torn on Chidiobu at the moment in that there is definitely the part of me, the Manchester United fan, that sees him through on goal and goes, this is it. This is the headline. It's all going to be fantastic. We've got a new thing to get.

to be hopeful about. But there are also parts of me going, this is a teenager. This is a 17-year-old. And he's not a teenager who's built like Wayne Rooney. He's not a teenager who's even built like Marcus Rashid. There are moments when I'm looking at Chido Obi and I'm looking and I feel like he looks like a boy. And there were two or three touches he had against Fulham where you're going, this might be a little bit too much for you. You have been pushed in at the deep end to replace Rasmus Hoyland. And I think...

I've texted to this going, Chido Obi's given this Fulham backline more problems to think about than Rasmus Hoyland. However, I think that says a lot more about what's currently going on with Rasmus Hoyland than it does about Chido Obi Martin. The football team of Manchester United's size should not be relying on a 17-year-old to carry its goal-scoring burden. He should only just be doing five-minute cameos at the end of games in the...

the Darren Gibson part of the season, as some people used to refer to it, when the league was already sewing up and there were maybe three or four matches and Gibson got some minutes. That's where I want Cicero to be playing. The idea that he might be playing major minutes in the last however many games in the league does make me a little bit uncomfortable. But,

Like a lot of people have said, he is troubling defences better than Hoyland. He's gambling. He's making runs down the channels. He's not wrestling with centre-backs that he knows he doesn't stand a chance with. Calvin Bassie is a very, very physical defender. Josh M. Anderson had Rasmus Hoyland completely sewn up when these two teams played each other at Graven Cottage. And yet Rasmus again...

tried wrestling with him. There was a moment in the first 25 minutes in the first half where Razman sort of had the ball, was going to lose it and then did a backheel to nothing. And you're going, could you please just calm it down a little bit? Whereas Chido Obi saw those two giant centre-backs, as Amarin likes to say, and went, I'm not going to duel with you. I want to challenge you to a foot race.

It's something that United fans are intrinsically predisposed to get excited about, Andy, as well, isn't it? Young strikers have often changed the course of the club's history. It was Marcus Rashford in European competition, in domestic competition. I remember Fergie's fledglings, there were great hopes for them. That was around 88, 89 when you have to go that far back now to realise how bad United were then, I

This is now the new benchmark, 88-89. We can't say 89-90 anymore because United won the FA Cup that season. Those players who came through them, great excitement around them, didn't really establish themselves in the first team. Fans are desperate. They'd love the idea of a young striker coming through, taking his chances. As Carl said, everyone was willing to

Chido Obi and he did put Bassi under pressure but then he froze a little bit with a couple of chances. He forced a good save from Lino but Manchester United did look better with him on the pitch. Well, Obi will not be playing on Thursday night. We can say that now for certain but we look to Rasmus Hoyland. Like Andy mentioned, he's one of the top scorers in the Europa League so far this season. His European form since being at Manchester United has been

the big positive really so let's hope the competition can be a bit of a refuge for him we'll see as well how Amarin exactly freshens the side up Patrick Dorgu will be back available because of course his suspension doesn't apply in Europe there was that injury to Harry Maguire not quite sure how he is and Matthias Delik looks absolutely shattered as well

But anyway, let's take a focus on the opposition, Real Sociedad. Usually at this point, we'll be bringing on a journalist from the local area to explain exactly what Manchester United can expect on Thursday. But we've got Andy Mitten who's done that for us. So Andy, what are we facing then on Thursday? You're facing a team that is not as strong as they were last year when they've been getting fifth or sixth place finishes. A team who've been out of form.

are technically very good. They lost 1-0 at Real Madrid last week in the semi-final of the Copa del Rey. They lost 4-0 against Barcelona on Sunday, but don't read too deeply into that. They actually started well, but they were down to 10 men after 16 minutes after their captain, Aritz, was sent off. That was their fourth red of the season. So they've got a bit of that in them. I did watch them play Lazio in the Europa League and...

And that was another red that did for them and they lost there. So the ninth this season, they were eighth last season. They've had the same coach, Imanol, since 2018. He replaced my mate, yes, mate, Eusebio. And before him, David Moyes was obviously there. So the best players are Martins Ubimendi,

he's a he's a defensive midfielder 26 he's been linked with lots of um lots of clubs in in the premier league especially liverpool the one i like best is kubo he's a japanese right winger 23 came from mallorca he's playing his best football he cuts inside he's got a good strike from outside the the box as well makes a dangerous last pass oyazabal is up front they're really lacking

in terms of form, in terms of number of goals to score him. Another player I like is Nayef Aguad. I think I've said that wrong. Came from West Ham. Again. Again. So Moroccan lad, big lad, good in the air. He's made a big impact since coming at the start of this season. They got to this stage by winning 2-1 away at Midtjylland, 5-2 at home. And in the group stage, they beat Pauk, who Manchester United beat, but they lost at Pilsen. But they beat Ajax 2-0 at home.

They've lost now, I think, six out of the last nine. Oskarsson got a young centre-forward, 20 years old. This is a club, remember, that gave the world Isak. So they tend to do well in getting good Scandinavian strikers. Kind of. Isak was Dortmund first. Yeah.

He's fixing himself up real sussy there. Well, I could say that they created him in fairness. So there's a few people who have claims to these world-class forwards, aren't there? Yeah, yeah, yeah. So Oskarsson played against United last year. He came from FC Copenhagen. He came on in both games against United. He didn't score. He's only 20 now. So I'm totally torn here. And that's why I sound hesitant because a normal functioning Manchester United team

would beat them never played them before 2013 played them three times since four times since yeah yeah four times most recently in the 22-23 season with Eric Tanag so the home game they lost 1-0 Lissandra Martinez was just a handball this was the game that was played shortly after the Queen passed away so the

quite hard to report them because there was no highlights and we weren't allowed any replays. I watched it. United weren't very good, but away they were better. And then the reverse tie was the game to top the group and... Garnaccio to Ronaldo. Garnaccio to Ronaldo. Yeah, yeah. So all Garnaccio's family came up from Madrid to watch that. Garnaccio's dad was crying in the main stand. He was tears of joy. He scored in an FA Cup final and he's done some other fantastic things at Goodison Park and elsewhere. But in some ways, if you ask him...

Because obviously there's this thing with Garnaccio with growing up, obviously, in Madrid and Ronaldo playing there and obviously being Argentinian and playing with Messi, that there's this constant trade-off about who's the greatest of all time. You've got a relationship with both of them and he's caught in the middle of it. But that moment, setting up Ronaldo to score, was extremely special for him. Then he gets the goal and he asks Ronaldo, can he use his celebration? The rest is history, right? Yeah.

There's been intercontinental arguments about that ever since. Andy, would you say this Real Sociedad team is better or worse than the one United faced in 22-23?

I would say the worst because they've sold two of the best players. The two I interviewed both got sold. Mikel Moreno went back to Arsenal. He'd been at Newcastle. And Robin Lennon-Mand went to Atletico Madrid. So Real Sociedad are pretty prudent financially. They tend to make a good profit by selling players onto the Premier League or to the bigger Spanish clubs.

They've redeveloped the stadium. It's a fantastic stadium. It's one of the best cities in Europe, San Sebastian, Donostia in Basque. People going there will have a good time. And I just hope it's not Manchester United's last Euro away for a while because that's my worry. I mean, it is a splendid place to go out on, but...

If we go out and we're not going to get into European football next year, that is a worry of mine. Well, you'll be concerned that we're not in the Europa League next season, Andy, as well, won't you? It doesn't look like United are going to be in that competition. You've got a bit of a soft spot for it, considering the weird and wonderful places it takes you to. Yeah.

Yeah, it's true. We didn't even think of it like that. Yeah. Can't get in the Europa League now, can we? Nope. Barring an incredible turn of results in the Premier League now. Just realise that. Listen, I'll settle for Champions League football all day long. If you are going to San Sebastian and you listen to this podcast, just know I'm deeply jealous of you because it is one of the best places on earth to watch football. So even if United aren't very good at the moment, go enjoy it. Have a great time. Take loads of photographs because...

Rail sausage out of the way is incredible. Yeah. Have a pint for us. And pinchos. You've got to eat pinchos. They're the small like plates are like one or two euros and it's often fresh fish. And the, the, this, I hate myself for saying this because it's become so cliche, but San Sebastian has got more Michelin star restaurants per head than any city outside Paris. Not that I think Manchester United fans will be going to these places, but yeah,

do yourself a favour, go to the Old Town, have some pin shows. The Basques are lovely people. And ideally, this will be the first trip of three to the Basque country because we could meet Athletic Club in the semi-final and then get to the final. My gosh, that seems so far away on this Monday morning, having gone out the FA Cup yesterday. Yeah, don't worry about that for now. Let's talk about something else.

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Well, if you still need your fix of senior FA Cup football, Manchester United's women are still in the competition. They've got a quarter-final to look forward to against Sunderland this weekend. They've just beaten Leicester, actually, 2-0 in the WSL, a move within five points of the leaders Chelsea, so things looking a lot better for Mark Skinner's side, certainly. But there is an emerging story, actually, relating to JC, the Brazilian forward who

who plays for United. She's not played as much lately and gave quite a worrying statement actually after the win over Leicester, describing the agonising and lonely feeling that she's got playing for Manchester United at the moment. There seems maybe some extra layers to this. Our colleague Megan Faringa is looking into it at the moment and of course we'll bring you more on that when we've got it at The Athletic. Let's introduce Laurie then.

Friday night, Emirates Stadium, FA Youth Cup quarter-final, Arsenal 2, Manchester United 3. That's more like it, come on. I know some positivity right to end this podcast. Lift us Laurie, lift us. That's why I've left the doom and gloom to you boys and I'm just stealing in on a shiny white horse to sort of claim that there's some positivity around the club at least on the youth side of things.

But yeah, really thrilling match actually at the Emirates and made the trip worthwhile. Okay, even if they'd been in defeat, it would have been nice to see the next crop kind of coming through. What's their performance level like in a stadium like the Emirates? Obviously, the last round could have been held at Old Trafford. The club decided against that, had it at Lee, much to Andy's chagrin, as I mistakenly said it was a good crowd. It was actually a better crowd at Arsenal. Quite a lot of United fans there, you know, actually. They had like a little section that were singing throughout the game and even in the Arsenal sort of

there was United fans clearly involved there as well. But yeah, I thought really...

really impressive performance from them actually because they were they were two one down with five minutes to go they could have wilted um and it was an excellent equalizer from camerson and then i mean they had the strength in depth adam lawrence was able to make substitutions in extra time and and then they ended up winning it with a really nice goal from bendito mantato so yeah really positive performance from them and they go into the semifinals yeah something to look forward to certainly they'll face aston villa or plymouth in the semifinals sometime in april

their quarterfinal tie doesn't take place until a week on Friday so we await for that and awaiting in the final could be Manchester City as well they're taking on Watford in the other semi-final so we've not got a repeat of the FA Cup final for the men's senior team the last two seasons but we might end up having it in the FA Youth Cup but let's hear from the boss then of the under-18s this is Adam Lawrence

Naturally, to be able to come back twice in a game like this and then obviously win it an extra time, listen, it's obviously really special. What we do know about the boys, you know, it's not an accident just in terms of the attitude that we see every day, their mentality towards getting better and improving and how much evidence they've got just in terms of being strong in a lot of stages of the game. We always felt that we could win.

obviously score and have that moment, but there's always that chance that it doesn't quite happen. So to be fair to the boys, it was great that they did and I thought they showed a lot of character tonight. We felt we had the game under good control. Arsenal were set up in a way tonight, they were well coached, they had a good idea in terms of what they wanted to do. So for us, it was just about really being quite extreme with the control that we had, making more passes, managing the spaces and then attacking when it was really obvious.

if you just attack every time you get it or you leave the game too open it ends up being a bit basketball like we just tried to manage it as best as we could yeah positivity there from Adam understandably a brilliant win to add to knocking Chelsea out of the competition as well who stood out to you then Laurie in terms of the individuals on show because there's some very talented players in that team yeah

Yeah, there's lots of different players to pick out really. I was really impressed by Camerson actually, sort of sent a message to somebody at half-time saying he was playing really well, just aggressive, running, getting forwards. He made a brilliant last-ditch tackle to stop what would have been a one-on-one for Arsenal in the first half and then he was the one that

popped up with a goal to equalise five minutes from time. And it was one of those where it's not really even a chance, it's sort of like a half chance, but he got the ball on the edge of the box and struck it really firmly. Keeper got some fingertips to it, but it was too powerful for him to keep out. So really impressed with him after he played well against Chelsea as well in the previous round. I mean, Jack Fletcher as well, I think he's a...

Clearly a very talented player. Darren Fletcher was in the stands watching and he started the scoring with a lovely goal off his weaker right foot, striking him from distance again. He had a couple of other attempts actually from distance that one the keeper saved, one went just wide, I think. And so, yeah, he's a real talent. Some brilliant strikes in the game, by the way. I don't know if Mikel Arteta looked into it. Well, you have to give credit as well to Max Dahlman, who is...

well regarded in youth circles. 15, Arsenal player. Yeah, that's incredible, isn't it? He terrorised United, to be honest. Can't we nick him as well? Well, this is the thing, right? So you've got Chido Obi, you've got Aidan Heaven, you know, is there a hat-trick of Arsenal Academy graduates potentially being recruited to United? I mean, that was...

one of the big narratives coming out of it that Chido Obi wasn't in the team. We were talking on the last podcast, weren't we? And I think I was sort of talking myself out of him playing in the game when I was sort of going through the sort of daily routine that he'd have to go through. And yeah, clearly in the end, he was going to be featuring on Sunday against Fulham. So,

I guess it made sense not to risk him on Friday night, but it was a bit of a shame because I think he would have quite liked to go back to the Emirates and show them what they're missing out on. He certainly got in the old comments on Instagram, I think. Thank you so much, he replied to Camerson, I think it was. The thing you don't realise, mate, you need it for the first team long term, so you might not feature in the competition again. So I don't know what you're saying thank you for. Well, this is it. Does he drop back down for the semi? I don't...

I mean, only if it actually works right because then they had to sort of shuffle things around a bit and Moussa came in up front and they ended up switching around again in extra time as well. So, yeah, they have lots of... I think they've got lots of really interesting players and I'm...

I'm always a bit cautious about this, as we are on this podcast, right, about just chuck them in. But I feel like maybe you've got some talents there. I mean, Harry Amos again, you know, I know he's been talked about a lot and I thought he did really well, you know, close control, sort of good energy about him. So you're sort of thinking, is there going to be a stage towards the end of the season, particularly in the Premier League, if it's looking like, you know, a forlorn hope of, you know, just...

doing anything to kind of give these guys a little bit of a chance just to get them tested. It feels like 2022 all over again Andy in a way doesn't it where we're going to be gathered at Old Trafford hopefully fingers crossed and

watching the youth team lift the gloom at Manchester United. Yeah, it's been one of the bright points of this season. We're always excited about the youngsters. 2022 was top against Forest. There was that huge crowd. We saw Cobby Maynew and Alejandro Garnaccio then go and establish themselves in the first team. So, yeah...

any any port in a storm because yeah that's how it feels right now well we're hoping that we are your port in a storm we certainly have played that role previously but for the moment we're going to leave it there on talk of the devils laurie thank you for coming on for that last bit andy and carl thank you for your company for the duration if you want to get involved with the conversation at any point remember devils pod at theathletic.com we'll be back on wednesday with extra and

And then again on Thursday after the first leg in Spain, whatever it brings. But thank you for listening. Thanks for your company. Thanks for getting involved. And let's hope for better. We'll see you on the next one. Take care. Bye-bye. The Athletic FC Podcast Network.