Congressman Rob Bishop: The Things I Learned In Congress They Never Taught In School
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It's time to take the quiz. Five questions, five minutes a day, five days a week. Take the quiz every weekday at thequiz.fox and then listen to the quiz podcast to find out how you did. Play, share, and of course, listen to the quiz at thequiz.fox. Well, welcome to the Jason in the House podcast. I'm Jason Chaffetz. Thanks again for joining us. I think you're really, you're going to really enjoy this one. We've had some good podcasts in the past. This one is a lot of fun for me personally because

It's with Congressman Rob Bishop. Now, I served in Congress with Rob Bishop. He was a congressman from Utah, and Utahns may be familiar with him. For those of you around the country, maybe you've heard of him, maybe you haven't. But you know what? Really smart guy, witty, funny, insightful, has a great story, and he's written a book. And I want to be able to talk a little bit about his book today.

The things I learned in Congress, they never taught in school. And it's out now. And I think you're going to have a lot of fun with this because he does teach you about some things. He was a former educator before he went to Congress, but he's also a really funny guy. So we're going to have a good talk with Congressman Rob Bishop. He's since retired, but...

It's funny how once you retire, you get a whole lot more candid about what happens and doesn't happen in Congress. So I think that that's what you're going to like. Just a couple of quick thoughts about the news and the stupid, because, you know, there's always somebody doing something stupid somewhere. And then we're going to get on the horn with Congressman Rob Bishop. So let's get right after it. Last week was an important anniversary. Last week was the third year of

uh anniversary since joe biden took the houthis off the um terrorist watch list um the state department designates terrorist organizations around the world so that we can have focus focus determines reality you have to be focused on your enemy and understand that it's not always nation states that are going after you now behind the scenes

These hundreds and hundreds of attacks that our U.S. personnel and ships and everything else that have taken, particularly in the Middle East, have come at the hands of Iran. Make no ifs, ands, or buts about it. They're the ones that are funding this type of terror. But there are specific organizations, Hamas, Hezbollah, others, that are actually carrying this out. Now, if you go down into Yemen, look at Saudi Arabia, then go south,

It's to the west of Oman. Look at it on a map, understand the proximity, and look at the shipping lanes that the world needs in order to move commerce goods, and particularly oil. And you're going to find that Yemen is a critical part of that. Well, within Yemen, there are people called the Houthis.

The Houthis think they're a little bigger, better, tougher than they really are, but they are funded and they are essentially a proxy group for Iran. Now, they've been peppering Saudi Arabia and others for a long time. But make no mistake about it. This is a small wannabe group that in comparison to the United States of America, it should be no contest.

Joe Biden has taken the approach of appeasement. Let's just be nice. Let's be soft. So one of the things that Joe Biden does when he becomes president, unlike Donald Trump, he takes them off the terrorist watch list. That loosens up their ability to participate as, you know, in full, full, every way possible in order to, you know, be recognized and do commerce in the in the world today.

Big, huge mistake. Massive mistake. Wasn't earned. It was just this overall Biden approach of appeasement that is leading to a more dangerous world because we've had people killed now and a lot of others have had people killed now and there's no reason why we should have to tolerate and putting people in harm's way. The idea that the Houthis are trying to kill, attempt to kill,

should be taken for what it's worth. Now, we fired back a little bit, somewhat. If the United States really, truly wanted to take these people out, we could take them out. And it would only take a couple days, if that. Now, we've had some attempts here and there, and some of it's good. I'm not trying to negate the good, but I'm just saying that the United States of America should be able to, in a moment's notice, with effort...

sophistication, and smarts be able to eliminate the Houthis and the Houthi threat. It's not gone yet, though. And it's just been past our three-year anniversary since Joe Biden made that fateful decision. Again, put it on the list of bad decisions that have happened. All right, let's go to the stupid because you know what? There's always somebody doing something stupid somewhere. And we're going to go to Joe Biden and Kamala Harris.

Well, you know, Joe Biden has been toggling with this idea of should we or should we not ban TikTok? Now, any sophisticated look at TikTok and you're going to understand that this is controlled by the Chinese. The Chinese have every bit of incentive to have TikTok banned.

spread as far and wide. Now, there's an upcoming book by Peter Schweitzer that I've been read into. It will illuminate this even more about China and the efforts that the Chinese are putting in to divide America, go after America, sow discord in America. TikTok, by every estimation, is a tool that is used to infiltrate the United States and

not just participate in the dialogue, but spy on Americans. That's really what it does. They do an exceptionally good job of being able to empower individuals to put together fancy videos and neat cat videos and everything else. But if you look at TikTok and the parent company ByteDance and all these...

you're going to find that it is something that probably should be banned in the United States of America because it is a tool of propaganda and used by the Chinese and they're spying on us. Now we can get into a bigger, broader discussion about this, but Joe Biden went so far as to partially, not totally, but partially ban propaganda

federal workers from using TikTok at work on government assets. But in the quest for power, set all that aside, Joe Biden, because Joe Biden is going after TikTokers. He's using TikTok

He's using that tool to go after younger voters to try to win an election. So he knows the intelligence. His staff knows the intelligence all says this is a tool of subversion. But hey, if it can help Joe Biden win an election, he's all for it.

That is just downright stupid. It's not the kind of leadership we need in this country. Yes, it's difficult to turn off something that's possible. But when you get the classified intelligence, when you get the insight, when you actually dive deep in what they're doing, sometimes leadership means, yeah, I'm going to give this up for the good of the nation, not just do it to win an election. But that's what Joe Biden's doing.

All right, let's move on because I want to get to Rob Bishop. Like I said, he's got this new book coming out. He's a good guy. So let's call up my good friend, my former colleague in the United States House of Representatives, Congressman Rob Bishop. Hello, this is Rob. Rob Bishop. Hey, Jason Chaffetz. It's good to hear from you again, Jason. I'm so glad that you're still old school. Don't have that caller ID because I was afraid you weren't going to pick up if I dialed you. Yeah.

I am old school. I probably would have picked up anyway, but you're right. I will do everything old school. All right. So Rob Bishop served in Congress. You're like a dinosaur in Congress. How long were you there? Oh, it's sad. It's almost today. 18 years. 18 years. Yes. So I had the pleasure of serving with Rob. We rib each other back and forth. And to know and understand Rob Bishop, the congressman, but Rob Bishop, the person, you have to understand that if you're not

If you're not joking with each other, if you're not poking each other a little bit, you're just not having the right conversation with Rob Bishop. That's just the way it rolls with Rob. Am I right about that? Well, I thought I was serious all the time. I guess it just doesn't come across that way. No, when I first met you, it was a little gruff and I was a little worried about it. But then I got to know you and I thought, no, he really likes me.

Maybe I was wrong. No, no, I did. And I appreciated you and everything that you did for Utah and in the House. And and the fact that you weren't a senator was a big, big plus. So what people have to understand is that Rob Bishop had a couple of rules. And when I first got to Congress, he had been in Congress a little while. And and he said, now, listen, I got some rules around here and I hope you don't mind my telling this.

And one of the key rules that he had was when a senator enters a room, you do not stand. Now, it wasn't 30 days later we were in a particular senator's office and the senator was walking in a little bit late to the meeting and the rest of the delegation was meeting. And as soon as the senator came in the room, Rob darted his eyes at me like, don't you dare. Don't stand up. Don't stand up.

I still remember still laughing and eventually came over, you know, everybody's shaking hands, but I did not stand up. There's no way I was going to violate your rule right at the beginning.

Every every Senate staffer stands when a senator enters the room as if there is some protocol for it. I actually went further. I told you I'd break your knees if you stood up. And that that actually became a standing. No, no pun intended. Standing rule for our delegation. I told Chris Stewart and John Curtis the same thing and tried to enforce it.

But I'm guessing that they didn't always adhere to the bishop rules. If I was there, they'd care. The other thing you told me is, no ties on airplanes. Get over it. You're on an airplane. We're not wearing ties. And that I definitely adhered to. Absolutely. Absolutely.

Well, I appreciated the fact that you would dress down. Some of our colleagues would not, which was frustrating. But I think if you're going to be sitting for four hours in one direction, you should be at least a little bit comfortable. Yeah, exactly. Well, usually that included flip-flops and shorts for you, no matter the weather, which I always did appreciate and admire. It's winter right now, and that standard still applies. Yeah.

What people need to understand with Rob Bishop, not only he was chairman of Natural Resources Committee, cares deeply and passionately about the country. And he was a school teacher prior to being in Congress. And I could tell that was always right in your heart. Now, he also has a new book that he wrote, and it's called The Things I Learned in Congress They Never Taught in School.

So, but somebody who's actually been around the block and focused so much of his time on education and the value of education and all the things that aren't just in the book and

but all the other things. That's why I really was excited to have you joining us on the podcast. So tell us a little bit about the book, and then I want to go back and kind of talk about young Rob Bishop and kind of how you became who you became. But tell us about the book, why you wrote it, and what would we see if you saw it, if we read it? Well, the first thing I know, well, you're right. I taught school for 28 years before I was elected to Congress.

And, and also, you know, I was in the state legislature for about 16 years, but that was also teaching at the same time because the Utah legislature is part time. What I realized when I first got to Congress is the textbooks I had been using to teach about Congress in the legislative unit.

They were nice, but they didn't quite hit the mark. Wilson's a great author, but the stuff he wrote about Congress was not what I experienced when I was in Congress. Let me give you a couple of quick examples. The textbook I was using did a full section on calendar Wednesdays.

We did have calendar Wednesdays, but I don't remember in the 18 years I was there ever using calendar Wednesdays. There was one year where the AP government exam, and for the last decade and a half, I just taught AP U.S. history and AP government. The question on the essay was on the discharge petitions. Now, you and I, look, there have been discharge petitions since 1910.

They're used frequently, but in the 18 years I was there, I never saw a discharge petition that was effective.

And when we were in the minority, I signed him right and left. When we're in the majority, the Democrats signed him right and left and we didn't. To do a discharge petition in the majority party, you have to be a really gutsy person or have a significant issue. Well, explain to people what it is. Explain to people what it is, because I felt like it was a tool, it was a messaging tool to tell your constituents, I'm fighting for this, but not really, because you know it's not really going to ever happen.

It's a PR stunt. The idea behind it was that the common members of the House could go around leadership if leadership was holding a bill in a committee and wouldn't let it come to the floor. If you got 218 members to sign a discharge petition, it immediately came to the floor for discussion.

A 218 is, of course, over half. And if you had half doing it, then obviously you have a good chance of passing it, so you should do it. If you can't get 218 signatures on it, then obviously you probably wouldn't pass anyway, so why waste your time? The bottom line is to get 218, you have to get all the minority and a significant number of majority members to buck the majority leadership.

to put that on the floor. And it just doesn't happen. In fact, usually the majority leaders, if there were that many majority members that wanted something, they would move it on their own.

So a discharge petition was usually an effort for the minority to try in some way embarrass the majority party. And it didn't matter who was the minority. They would always use that. But it was a PR tool and not necessarily something that was an effective and useful mechanism as the textbooks indicated it would be. Yeah. No, no. You know, my beef with the whole – well, keep going about the book because –

I got a little stump speech about political science teachers and my beef with them, but let's keep going on the book.

Well, so the first reason when I went back there, I felt compelled. I don't know why, but I felt compelled to write down the stories and experiences I was having that I wished I had had when I was actually teaching school. So the book is not really a textbook. It's more like a supplemental reader. It would be, I think, ideal for a government teacher to look at so you can find out some of the flushing of what really happens and how procedures work.

I also was perhaps different than a lot of members who are back there. I cared about procedure. If you remember John Dingell, longest serving House member ever, and he once said that if I let you make all the policy decisions and you let me do the procedures, I'll screw you over every time, which is a true quote. He actually did say that. I believe it. Yeah.

So to me, the procedures of Congress are as important as the policy. If you have good procedures, you will produce good policy. Bad procedures produce bad policy. So one of the things I try to talk about here in not only giving examples is talking about the procedures that are done in Congress today.

Which I think people should know about, some of which I think are positive, but a lot of the procedures and I rail against them in the book as well, I think are negative and actually counterproductive in what we do. Well, it was interesting. So when I was first elected to Congress, they had five, I think, orientations on.

And I remember going through the fifth orientation and then saying, wait a sec, but I learned nothing about the rules and how a bill becomes a bill. I saw Schoolhouse Rock, but I thought we were going through all these orientations to learn the rules and the policy and the procedures and all that kind of stuff.

It took me a few years, but once I was there for a few years, I thought, aha, yeah, leadership doesn't want us to know all the rules and all the procedures. There's a reason why we're not taught that stuff, because those who know and understand how those procedures work, they rule the roost. They can pull things out that, like, wait, what? And it really did strike me a few years into being in a Congress. That was what they were really doing.

Whenever the leadership of House changes, goes from Republican to Democrat and back forth, they have a transition team. And when Boehner became the speaker, was that about 2010, I believe, and they had a transition team, I was put on that, which I appreciated. And my area was supposed to be going over the rules. And I was surprised at how many different kinds and

and sets rules. There are some rules that we pass that's standing for the House that both Republicans and Democrats vote on. There are rules that the Republicans only have and Democrats only have within their own conference. There are rules that are simply not voted upon but are implemented by the Speaker. There are Speaker protocols which are different than the rules. There are five or six different

kinds or sets of rules, all of which are used to try and get things to move better, but ultimately also help leadership maintain some kind of control over a body that is the size of a senior class in a large high school, which is somewhat difficult just to manage in and of itself. But some of the rules, I think,

I think, well, eventually I want to talk about, you know, like one, which is simply rolled votes. Most people have never heard of roll votes. And on the surface, it sounds great. But to me, the worst practice we do in Congress is rolling votes, which guarantees no one is ever there to hear the debate. And therefore, you listen to what leadership tells you to do.

No, that's it's so true, because, you know, you can have five members passionately debating something. And if they'd actually listen to it, they probably would have thought, oh, yeah, that's a good point. And, you know, and this Senate is even worse. I mean, the Senate is just like, you know.

supposed to be the most deliberative body on the face of the planet. When's the last time you saw two senators standing toe-to-toe actually having an actual debate? This doesn't happen. It is once again another procedure. This is one of the other things I write about in the book, that the Senate always had the filibuster rule. And in the 70s, they decided to be efficient and say, look, if somebody is going to filibuster, let's move on to something that won't be filibustered.

What that meant was the number of filibusters for the 50 years prior to that had been about 58 in the 50 years. It's about 2,500 threatened filibusters after that. So after the 1970s, if a senator said, I will filibuster, it simply meant the Senate will say, OK, we're not talking about that particular issue. We'll move on. Any one senator can do that. Exactly.

Exactly. And what it means is the majority of bills passed by the House will never even be talked about in the Senate because one jerk senator, and you can find a whole lot of opportunities to find one of them, can simply say, I'll filibuster it so they move on.

In the last time I was there, my last session as the chairman, we had a comprehensive bill for resources. A lot of stuff for Utah was in that particular bill. And when I would sit down with my Senate counterpart,

I would say to Senator Murkowski, this is one of the things the House wants, and Murkowski would say, "Rob, it's a wonderful idea. I support it totally, but it will never pass the Senate. Somebody will filibuster it, so move on. We're not even going to talk about something that might be filibustered here in the Senate." So, a lot of great ideas will never actually make it through the Senate simply because of the procedures they have imposed upon themselves.

So I'm looking at the cover of the book, The Things I Learned in Congress They Never Taught in School by Rob Bishop. And you find it easily on Amazon, for instance. And on the cover, I have a question because it's like an old school classroom with the old desks and all that. But it really looks to me like the guy who's heading up the class. That looks like Trey Gowdy. Is that Trey Gowdy actually teaching that old class? Because that's really what it looks like.

I'm glad you didn't say it looked like me. I appreciate that. Because the guy is either a blonde or white hair. I have white hair. Trey's a blonde when he lets it grow out. But it does. It looks quite a bit like him. Yeah, it's kind of looked like... So tell us some more about the contents of the book. Because, I mean, I hope you're telling some of the amazing stories because...

Your counterparts and the people you were debating with and the experiences that you go through through all those years, there's inevitably somebody doing something stupid somewhere. We have a segment in this podcast just before we started this interview about somebody doing something stupid somewhere. Are we going to find those fun things in the book as well? I hope so. There's actually kind of three parts to it. The last part are some of the experiences I had when I first ran for Congress and what it was like to live in Washington, D.C.,

and make those flights and everything else, and the softball teams. The middle section is about how Congress is operated and organized. The first part is a little bit about the philosophy of what people in Congress should know. And I think you'll understand when I say that we have a lot of good friends who consider themselves conservative.

who give lip service to some of the basic fundamental ideas like federalism and checks and balance system until they find their ability to create a new government program, maybe even named after himself or herself. And then all of a sudden they throw the principles under the bus.

And forget all about their fealty to federalism. So I do talk a great deal about what is, to me, the significance of the organization of the country, the constitutional basis, especially federalism and checks and balances. To me, the most important founding father was Isaac Newton because the founders realized you can't pass a law to make everyone nice.

But if you believe in Newton's third law of physics, that for every action there's an equal and opposite reaction, you can structure government

so that no one person becomes too powerful or has too much ability to make decisions that will threaten individual rights of a person. We in Congress, while I was there and while you were there, found a lot of people who would forget the significance and the importance of that principle of balance,

between the branches of government and between the states and the federal government, both horizontally and vertically. Let me just give you one quick example. We had a good friend from Tennessee, a good conservative, very logical guy, who obviously believed in federalism and the idea that the federal government should not dictate to the states, except he also believed in fiscal education.

So we came to a point where we were reauthorizing the No Child Left Behind bill, something that should never have been passed in the first place. And he wanted to reauthorize it, mandating physical education be part of No Child Left Behind. Now, I was in the Republican Study Committee at the time and chairing what we called the Tenth Amendment Task Force. And one of my responsibilities was to go on the floor and plead the 10th.

Which means this is a wonderful idea, but this is not something for Congress to do. Now, they did a great job lobbying us. They even if you guys if you remember, they even brought Richard Simmons up to lobby us. Fortunately, he was wearing a suit all the time. He was always in a suit, which was good.

But my job is to go on the floor and say, there's nothing wrong with PE. There's nothing wrong with getting kids out there and moving them around. There's nothing wrong with doing it. And if there are a bunch of PE teachers in the district level who are coming up with this plan, it would be perfect.

But Congress is not a school board. Congress is not responsible for education. Congress is not the place to be dictating to the schools what you will and will not be teaching. That is not our effort of expertise and responsibility.

And the guy from Tennessee is a good person. He was a very conservative member who really believed in the idea of states' rights until he had a chance to try and force something for which he was equally passionate. Those are the kinds of things that happen too frequently in Congress with people, even if they know, if they profess to believe in constitutional principles,

They still forget it when the time comes. And that's why the first part of the book is actually some philosophy of general philosophy of government. You know, this is this is in part when I think back and I if I had to sit down and write, OK, what do you what do you remember about your time with Rob Bishop? It would be on the policy side. It really would be that whole thing.

Just passionate and I mean, to its core belief in the 10th Amendment, which a lot of people forget. And it's so easy to talk yourself into. Oh, well, yeah, but, you know, we could do this. And it's just it really is one of the most important principles. And it's so overrun by Congress now.

Dive a little deeper into that whole 10th Amendment. Why do you think that why why it's there and how bad Congress is in adhering to it? Well, can I give you one last example of how we talk once I don't do it?

I was and I think this was before you came. Maybe not. We were in a Republican study committee, which is one of the caucuses is back there. I don't know the plural for caucus. Cock-eye? Cock-eye? Cock-eye. Yes. Let's go with cock-eye. OK. Better than cock-eye.

And we were it is the most conservative of the was that time, most conservative of the interest groups. And and and one of the representatives that came in with me wanted to form a 10th amendment or not a 10th. He wanted a constitutional caucus, as he described it, to try and push this idea of federalism and the state's rights. And everyone there was shaking their heads, nodding yes in agreement.

Then another member who came in with me from who you probably won't remember from Minnesota,

said he had a bill that he wanted to introduce and was asking for co-sponsors. And his bill was dealing with Minnesota. Apparently in Minnesota, their state legislature has passed a law that said no kid could start public school without being fully vaccinated. And he wanted everyone to co-sign on his bill that would prohibit the federal government prohibiting Minnesota from implementing this rule. And the same heads that had just been shaking their heads saying, yeah, we got to support states,

We're shaking the head saying, yeah, we got to stop Minnesota from doing this. And I turned over to one of the members from California I was sitting by. It was probably Wally Herger or somebody. And I said, did I miss something? Are the same people who said, yeah, we got to let states make decisions for themselves now signing on to a bill telling Minnesota what they will and will not do. Now, I don't care if it's wrong thing to do. I don't think it's good to drug kids to put them in school.

But Minnesota, the state, is in charge of education. And once again, if you truly believe in this idea of federalism, the states have the ability to make decisions for themselves, you've got to be willing to allow states to make mistakes.

And you cannot have Congress stepping in to being the big brother, always telling states what is good or what is bad. Because if you do that, all of a sudden you take all the power away from states. You impose it on Congress, and that threatens the ability of people to guarantee their individual liberties because you break that balance of power between states and the national government down.

So it is one of those things that to me is extremely important. There is another element, too, and this all happened historically. This started in the progressive era. Teddy Roosevelt became president. He did not believe in federalism. He clearly said states should be an administrative body, but decisions should be made in Washington.

Then Wilson came in there and he didn't believe in the horizontal checks and balances between the three branches of government. He called it constitutional witchcraft. He believed that legislative bodies should not be the ones making decisions. It should be done by experts in the agencies of the executive branch in the federal department. So after that.

Both of them started making executive orders coming up the yin-yang. We've always had executive orders. Washington was the first one to do one, but he did eight in eight years. From the Civil War to 1900, in that 50-year period of time, there was only 151 done. Teddy Roosevelt did 1,000. Woodrow Wilson did 1,800 by himself.

Franklin Roosevelt did almost 4,000 executive orders. And the last four presidents have done executive orders in unique fashion. I mean, George W. Bush, when he signed the law, did –

a signing statement of how he would administer it. It's an executive order. The last two years of Obama's administration, when he no longer had to face the voters, that's when he said, I'm going to rule with a telephone and a pen. And he pushed out executive orders all over the place. Trump did executive orders, most of which were to overturn Obama's executive orders. But every once in a while, he did executive orders of his own as well. Biden did 100 executive orders in his first month of office.

The idea of executive orders is where the president gets to create policy outside of the legislature. And that's one of those things that to me is a procedure that threatens the very basics of this country. When Republicans got control of Congress in 2022, they got control, but we got it.

The head of the Progressive Caucus said we won't be able to pass as many laws as we did while Pelosi was speaker. But that's OK. We'll just have to have Biden make more executive orders.

This is one of the things I go over in detail in the book, because to me, that is a real threat to the structure of America. It's a procedure that is bad and produces bad policy. Even if the executive order is good, I admit some of Trump's executive orders, and there's even one that Biden did on AI that to me looks pretty logical.

But it's done by a president, not by the legislature. Presidents should not create policy. Legislative bodies should. And Congress has got to step up and take responsibility for that to make the decisions themselves and not just allow

the executive branch to overtake them, whether it's the president in executive orders or an agency in their rules and regulations. Congress has got to be responsible for doing that. That's what the system was intended to be. You're listening to Jason in the House. We'll be back with more of my conversation with Congressman Rob Bishop right after this.

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Yeah, and that's why I believe that the founders were ultimately very conservative in their approach. They didn't create a system with the House and the Senate and the presidency and vetoes and all that. They didn't create that system to be an easy glide path. I mean, if you wanted a glide path to just pass new policies and new things as quickly as possible,

yeah, you would create a different form of government. But they wanted it to be slow and meticulous and move like molasses. It's just they didn't want it to be such rapid, fast fire. And I think the Congress has just been neutered along the way. They've just become ineffective, but in large part because they just haven't stood up for themselves. They haven't said, no, that's not the way this thing works.

And if you couple that with a need to say, no, that's not the federal government's role. That's the state's role. Boy, you could just cut almost in half, if not more, what Congress deals with on a year-by-year basis. Boy, you just hit on another thing, too. And all these things I'm trying to talk about in the book. If you really want to get control of government spending,

Believe in federalism. It's not just the federal government spends too much. We spend on too much. A newspaper editor once asked me how I could come up with a plan to control spending in Washington, and I answered federalism. He didn't like that. He wanted some much more ingenious plan. But the idea is if the federal government only deals with the things for which it has responsibility and leaves to state governments,

and let state government raise their own funds for their programs and not try and control the states by free money coming in there, we don't spend as much. If you really want to get control of the spending, it's got to be federalism. If you want to get control of the policies, we've got to trust federalism again, and we've got to start living with those.

And you were right when you said we served on one of Paul Ryan's task forces, which was to claw back power to the first article. Article one task force is what he called it. The idea of Congress taking back authority from the executive branch was a wonderful idea, which produced nothing. Oh, we had lots of ideas. We produced good documents. It's just the idea that Congress is going to have the guts to implement them. No way.

Exactly. That's another thing I go over in the book, too. We had staffers on that committee that did not want to rock the boat. They said, let's do everything that doesn't require changing the status quo. You can't solve the problem if you're not really ready to change the status quo. And that's one of the things that has to be there. And it's always been an issue. I

Let me tell you one more story because I'm an old teacher. I lecture too much. So tell me to shut up when I'm going too long. In the very, very first Congress,

The issue before Congress was where postal routes would be in the U.S. post office because there was some economic advantage for wherever you had a postal deposit area. But it was the end of the session. They were tired. They wanted to go home. They trusted George Washington. They said, let's just let Washington decide where the postal routes would be. And John Page, a congressman from Virginia, stood up.

and said, "Well, if you're going to do that, why don't we just stay home and let him do all the decisions?" In essence, he stood up and he shamed Congress into staying there and doing their job, which was to create the postal routes. Now, that's the same kind of attitude we have to do today. We have to be able to shame Congress into standing up and saying, "Before an agency comes up with a rule or regulation, it's got to be reviewed by a committee of Congress."

Do you understand what what's your what's what's your feeling about a balanced budget amendment? You for it against it. Where are you at on that? Well, I'm I'm for it. But in and of itself, it's not going to be effective. California has a balanced budget amendment. They have had for years, for decades, and they don't abide by it.

One of the things that we have to do if we're going to have a balanced budget and believe in it is set explicit timelines and deadlines and follow them and not give us a way to get around the balanced budget amendment. Yeah. So it is an important tool, but it's not the only tool. It's not the panacea tool. Yeah. I don't think it necessarily solves all the problems all the time, but –

You know, it's interesting because I had some arguments with some Republicans about a balanced budget amendment. They said, no, this will if you do that, then it'll give the excuse to the Democrats to raise taxes. And I'm like, well, maybe we should have a discussion in this country. If we if we had to actually pay for the government that we're offering and then I think there would come a point where people say, wait a second, I can't afford that. What are we going to cut? That would ultimately be.

the yin and the yang of it, that Newton's theory, that would come to fruition if you had to actually pay for what government is actually spending. And that is exactly the discussion that should be taking place. And Congress needs to push that discussion so that Congress is responsible for it.

If you remember back in 2008 when we had the crash, the housing and financial crash and financial institutions were going under. Yeah. Congress passed the TARP bill at that time. I'm going to paraphrase it. But what the TARP bill basically said is financial institutions that need financial support.

will be established and which financial institutions will get financial support will be established by the Secretary of the Treasury. And how much each financial institutions get will be determined by the Secretary of the Treasury. And Congress passed that thing. Congress basically opened the floodgate and said, "All right, that's our responsibility. Well, go ahead and you can do it. And then I don't have to be responsible for it. And if you don't do it the way I like it, I can complain about it, but I'm not responsible."

Congress needs to step up and say, we have got to write specific legislation, and it's our responsibility to do it, not abrogate that authority over to the executive branches. And it's the same thing they were arguing with you against a balanced budget amendment. They didn't want to take the responsibility of actually having that discussion of how much we're actually spending and how much taxes it would cover to do everything we want to try and do. Okay.

All right. So you bring me to another yet another point here about this. First of all, I want everybody to know, especially in Utah, that I was not in Congress when TARP was passed, so I didn't vote for it. And if I could have voted against it, I would have, but nevertheless.

Now I get to give my little stump speech or my be on the platform and say my beef with political science teachers. I was in Congress just over eight years. Never once, not one time did I ever, ever, ever have a political science speech.

professor, teacher, whatever, call and ask, hey, what really went down there? Hey, how did this actually work? None of that. These are the same people that go on teaching all the kids, preaching all the things, talking about, and I'm just like, these political science degrees they're handing out, I personally, I think they're worthless. Now, for all the people that have a political science degree, I would consider, okay, great. You had a good, I hope, history class. Yeah.

but how things actually work in Congress, maybe not so much because none of you have even bothered to call or talk to about now.

So here's this book, The Things I Learned in Congress They Never Taught in School by Rob Bishop. And hats off to you for doing it, because if you control, you know, concern about our government, garbage in, garbage out, right? If you don't understand how it works, why it works the way it is, this is probably the right book for you. So congratulations, Rob, on writing it.

Well, thank you. And I appreciate you gave the rationale for why I did it and why I hope people will actually look at it. Thank you. No, no. Hey, we're not done yet. I get to ask you some hard questions. You ready? These are the rapid fire questions. By the way, I did vote against TARP. Oh, good. Okay, good. And

And I have a story that's somewhat sacrilegious, so I have to tell it to you offline about it. But it's I'm glad I'm glad we don't really have many barriers here. So if you want to tell it, go right ahead. No, no, not this one. OK, it must be a really good story. All right. OK, so to get to know Rob Bishop a little bit better, I have some rapid fire questions. So you're ready.

I don't care how many classes you've taught. You're not ready for these. All right. First concert. First concert you ever attended. Oh, good. Hell, probably the association when I was in high school. How old are you? I've never heard of the association. Look him up. It's 1960s group. OK. And they are they are actually very good. And were they at Salt Air? Where were they at? What were they doing?

It was in Salt Lake. Not Salt Air or Lagoon, but it was in Salt Lake somewhere. All right. What was your high school mascot? Where'd you go to high school? Davis High. Davis High. And were they still the... They were always the Darts. All right. I love that name. I think that is the coolest, coolest mascot names, everything. The Darts is just awesome.

It is historical. I'm very proud of that. Yes. What's your favorite vegetable? Broccoli. Yeah, that's good. I like that. First job. First, like when you were growing up, first job, first time you got a check from somebody else. What was it? I was helping deliver welfare commodities to welfare recipients. So it's actually from the church. Oh, wow. That's very, that's the best answers I've ever heard.

What's the Rob Bishop superpower? That is, what can you do that? Yeah, I'm pretty good at that. Maybe not most people aren't, but I'm actually pretty good at that. What's your superpower? Oh, good hell. I don't have one. That's my problem. That's why Jon Stewart didn't put me on The Daily Show. I couldn't answer that question. I was standing in line for it.

Keep thinking about that because I know there's something in there. If you could have one person, not a religious figure, okay? We're going to set the religious side of it. If you could call up the family and say, hey, guess what, family? You got a real treat. We got somebody coming over to break bread with us to have dinner tonight. And it could be anybody in history. Who would that person be that you'd want to have break bread with? Mary Goldwater. Really? Why? Really. I...

When I was in the sixth grade, I had this bitter argument with another student over who was more conservative, Nelson Rockefeller or George Romney. And even though I was adamant in my arguments,

I had no idea what I was talking about because the real answer is neither one of them. By the time Goldwater ran for president, I was in the eighth grade. I read Conscience of a Conservative. That's the first time I actually became aware of what politics meant and what a conservative was. And he's always been my icon. I would love to talk to him about his experiences. And he became, at the end of his life, really more of a libertarian than a conservative.

But I would love to see how things happened and especially what happened in '64 when he ran. Yeah, he was obviously the senator from Arizona. And when I was a teenager and went back to one of those Washington seminars,

I actually met him not only and believe me, cameras were not as prevalent back then, but I had a camera with me and I got a picture. I have a picture with Barry Goldwater down in the Senate subways. It's it's old. It's it's all scratched up. But boy, I did get to meet him. It was quite a treat. And I am I am totally jealous of you. Yeah, that's why I brought it up. So I think. Did you ever have a pet growing up?

I had a dog and a couple of cats, yes. All right, that's good. Pineapple on pizza, yes or no? Yeah, but I won't eat it. And there's not much you won't eat, let's be honest. So that's quite, I'm going to take that as a no. No, no. If I have pizza, I'd rather have a chicken garlic. Chicken garlic, all right. Best baseball team there's ever been? The Cubs.

Rob is a, he is a fanatic baseball fan, goes to the Nationals games when you were in D.C., but you just love the Cubs. That's good for you. Yeah, Cubbies are first, Yankees are second. The greatest moment of my life was when Ferguson Jenkins came into my office and sat down and talked to me and autographed a baseball for me. Wow, very cool. Best advice you ever got?

- Oh hell, that's a good one. And I don't, you stumped me. I'm drawing a blank here. There could be good ones like don't lie or pick up your clothes or-- - Pick up your clothes? I have never had pick up your clothes is the best advice you've ever gotten. But that's, I'll put that one down. I love that answer.

Because you know what? If you pick up your clothes, it actually is symbolic and symptomatic of everything else in your life, right? It probably is. I'm going to talk myself into believing that's a really good answer.

I'll live by that one. All right. And next time I get to give a public speech and you're in the audience, I'm going to be sure to bring that one up. I love that. Okay. All right. Last question. Again, we're talking with Rob Bishop. The things I learned in Congress they never taught in school.

It's out now on Amazon, and you could probably find some other places to get it, but Amazon's the place I know that's pretty easy to get it. Who was your favorite oversight committee chairman from the state of Utah?

Did we have any from you? Oh, yeah. Yeah. There was one guy that became chairman there. He didn't stay long enough for my for my taste. But I think he was he was from down somewhere in around Utah County. Well, the best answer is that the.

The best answer I've ever gotten to that is from another person from Utah. "Well, I'm still undecided." Which I thought was the right answer. Touche. Somebody I truly enjoyed serving in the United States Congress with and learned a lot from and just had a lot of fun along the way and was a great colleague and partner in arms in so many fights that we had to fight

on lands issues and public access issues. I mean, so many different things. I can't even begin to name them all. Congressman Rob Bishop from the top of Utah and author of The Things I Learned in Congress They Never Taught in School. Thanks for joining us today, Rob. Really do appreciate it.

Thank you, and I appreciate everything you have done and will be doing for not only the state of Utah, but the country as well. The Things I Learned in Congress They Never Taught in School by Congressman Rob Bishop. Told you, it's going to be a worthwhile read. You can find it anywhere. He's a good guy. I hope you can rate this podcast. That would be good. Subscribe to it. We always have somebody good, and wait until you see who's coming up next week. You're going to love that. So subscribe to it, rate it,

and go over and look at foxnewspodcast.com because you know what? There's a lot of other good podcasts out there from the Fox network. I also want to remind people you can listen ad-free with a Fox News podcast plus subscription on Apple Podcasts, and Amazon Prime members can listen to this show ad-free on the Amazon Music app. I'm Jason Chaffetz. I really appreciate you joining us today.

Come join us next week. We've got another good one coming up. This has been Jason in the House. I'm Jason Chaffetz. Thanks for joining us. I'm Guy Benson. Join me weekdays at 3 p.m. Eastern as we break down the biggest stories of the day with some of the biggest newsmakers and guests. Listen live on the Fox News app or get the free podcast at GuyBensonShow.com.