BONUS: Inside the KGB with Jack Barsky
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Hey, snafu listeners. This is your host, Ed Helms, back in your feed for another bonus episode. This one is really, really cool. If you told me a year ago that I would be having a conversation with a former KGB agent, I would just tell you that you're cuckoo bananas. But it actually happened.

Now, over the course of our show, we got a healthy dose of espionage intrigue through our friends Oleg Gordievsky and Reiner Rupp, the two spies at the center of the Able Archer story. But the KGB had a whole network of operatives all over the world, each one on their own separate mission. One of those spies was a man named Jack Barsky, who infiltrated the U.S. in 1978, then eventually defected from Russia and became a U.S. citizen.

Just like our pals Oleg and Rainer, Jack's story is full of danger, intrigue, and incredible twists and turns. I had a chance to sit down with Jack recently, and it was a really exciting conversation. He was completely transparent and forthcoming. Literally nothing was off the table. And he provided some amazing fresh insight into the Soviets' Cold War mindset. And we even had a few chuckles. I really enjoyed this interview. I got a ton out of it, and I think you will too.

Hello, Jack Barsky. It is a pleasure to meet you. You have an incredible story.

KGB spy here in the United States for about a decade. So let's just dive right into your origin story. Tell me about growing up. Where exactly did you grow up? Well, I was born was in the Soviet occupied part of Germany. Very, very poor, very rural. I was taken care of fundamentally by

We had enough food. Maybe 50% was potato based, but I can't remember ever having been hungry. And I didn't know that I was poor because everybody else was poor. So you got at Christmas time, you got a bunch of presents and there was only one that you really wanted. The rest of it was underwear and socks. Wait a minute. Christmas time? Oh, yeah.

Oh, yeah. How did you have Christmas? There's no, you didn't, no one believed in God. No, but you see, Christmas also has a pagan tradition. Sure, okay. And in the communist countries, that was the tradition that was kept. I honestly had no idea.

that the rest of the world was celebrating the birth of Jesus Christ. I had no idea Jesus even existed. - Yeah, that's pretty extreme. - Oh yeah. - So you didn't get a lot of, in your education growing up, you weren't learning about other ideas. - They were teaching us the wisdom and there was only one truth. There was science and math and then there was ideology.

And the ideology was treated as if it was a science. Marxism-Leninism was considered a science equal to physics and chemistry and so forth. Wow, that is fascinating. If you grow into that kind of an environment...

what are you going to do? You don't know anything else. There's no other opinions. The only thing that went across borders was shortwave radio, but we didn't listen to shortwave talk. We listened to rock and roll. Very cool. Do you remember any bands you were listening to at that time? Initially, it was a couple of singers, Americans, who sang in German, Gus Backus and Bill Ramsey.

That was Bill Ramsey. But one day I heard a band called The Beatles. Yeah, they'll change your life, The Beatles. And it doesn't matter how communist we were, so to speak. We all loved that music.

Oh, wow. This is fascinating. I wanted to talk about the pop culture that you were absorbing, not just Western things, but

Things coming out of the Soviet Union and East Germany, particularly movies, you know, the spy stories have always been such a rich part of cinematic storytelling. And so what were you seeing at the time? And did you have a perception of like of the spy life? Fundamentally, there was this dichotomy. So we were listening primarily to music that came out of the West, West Germany and England and the United States.

But the communist art wasn't so bad. There were like some really good movies. There were inspirational stories, particularly when it came to espionage. There was a series that was called The Invisible Visor. It was about an East German who penetrated West Germany to find Nazis after World War II. And, uh,

make sure that these Nazis would meet the fate that they deserved. And eventually he rose up in West German government and did a lot of interesting things. He was all over the world. You know, he was driving fast cars. He was our James Bond. Yes. And he got the woman. And this is what I thought was interesting.

what espionage would be like. Obviously, it was highly ideological, fighting against bad capitalists. Sure, sure. But it nevertheless was well done, artistically speaking. Yeah. Well, I think that there's a great appreciation creatively and artistically for so much of what was coming out of the Soviet Union at that time. So let's transition from

some of these cultural considerations into you specifically. You're sort of working your way through school. At what point does, you know, an actual spy life start to coalesce for you? Yeah, that took a while. So,

Elementary school, I was just playing along. I didn't care much. And in high school, I was still playing around. But I became a little more ambitious, and I managed to have nothing but A's on my last report card. And so that allowed me to pretty much have my pick what university to go to.

I aced university as well, but here's a big but. It's not because I was the smartest guy, because I was clever. There were a couple of guys, at least, that were smarter than me, but they didn't know how to manipulate systems. - Ah, yeah, okay, interesting. So you're kind of, it's not just your intellect, it's sort of your savvy. - Exactly, sort of street smarts. At one point in my third year, there was a national scholarship

And I suggested that I be submitted.

And the fellow who wrote the application, he showed it to me. I said, that's not going to work. I rewrote, I wrote my own application and I was awarded that scholarship. And that, I believe, got the KGB to pay attention to me. That's it. That's what, that was the sort of opening volley that put you on the KGB's radar. I believe so because you couldn't like, if you want to work for the CIA, you could just like-

you know, contact them. Go online, fill out an application. There was no such thing. You could not contact the KGB. They came to me. So you're clearly a sort of a desirable candidate. Oh, yeah. And you think that's what actually put you on the KGB's radar. What was your first point of contact? So it was on a Saturday afternoon. I was sitting in my dorm room and I get a knock on the door.

So in comes a short...

man who was not likable, even just looking at him. - It was not James Bond. - No, he was German. And he said, "Hey, are you Albrecht Dittrich?" I said, "Yes, I am." "Oh, I just wanna talk with you about your plans after you graduate." That was the dumbest cover story that I've ever heard in my entire life because in those days when you were done,

You were assigned. Oh, you didn't get to just kind of pontificate about what you might want to do. No, no, no, no. And that's how this guy started the conversation. Yeah. So you knew right away this guy doesn't know what's up. Yes.

He pretended to be an employee of the biggest company in town, but I thought he was German. I thought he was East German secret police Stasi. Okay, but aren't you nervous anyway? No, no, not, no. I mean, I would think a Stasi knocking on your door might rattle anybody. I have always been fearless, right?

Interesting. Okay. So that is a difference. That's a difference between you and me. I clearly have a more fearful constitution and you're fearless. Yeah. Well, I'm afraid of my wife.

But generally, I have always done risky things that other people wouldn't do. So this guy was lying to me and we were talking a little bit for a while and then after about 10, 15 minutes, he changed his tune. He says, you know what, I got to confess, I'm not really from that company. I'm from the government. He said, the government.

And you're like, I know. In my mind, I was thinking maybe I should ask him what part of the government, but I didn't. So I said, yeah, okay. And he said, can you imagine one day –

Working for the government. He didn't ask you to join the KGB right now. No, no, no. He said government. He's still sussing you out. Yes. And the next meeting was in a restaurant, the most expensive restaurant in town. And he said, we're going to meet there. And when I get to the table, there was another fellow sitting there. And this guy who never introduced himself said, by the way, this is Herman. We're working with our Soviet comrades here.

Wow. This is exciting, right? You're a third year in college and the KGB is taking you to a fancy restaurant? Oh, the KGB was known to us as

the most powerful organization on the planet. You know, there was a KGB mythology. And philosophically right now, where are you with regards to the Communist Party? I was a member of the party. I was very active in the youth organization at university. And was this because it was just convenient to do that or were you a true believer?

I was a true believer. True believer. Absolutely. 100%. So that makes the KGB super exciting. Oh my God. Yes. Wow. Absolutely. Yeah. And okay. So you meet with Herman. Herman says. Let's, let's, let's meet again. Oh, okay. Okay. So it's just lots of meetings. It was a very slow ramp up. Initially I would meet with him in his car and,

sort of at the edge of town. After some, maybe three, four months, he must have determined that I was a really good candidate. Wow. Was there anything in your recruitment that made you think they want me to be capable of extreme violence or, you know, that spying involved, you know, like scary altercations, weaponry and close quarters combat and all that sort of thing? No, no, no, no, no.

All the people that I worked with, both in East Germany and then during my time in Moscow, were gentlemen.

Our weapons were supposed to be our brains. So let's talk about the training. What specific skills are you learning? What kinds of devices, tradecraft is entering the picture here? You'd be surprised. The very first document they gave me to read was a book about the history of the Communist Party of the Soviet Union. Okay.

Just more indoctrination. Oh, you bet. But with regard to tradecraft, we're starting out with a shortwave radio reception Morse code. And then I was taught how to produce secret writing. Hmm.

That is a skill. It isn't just something you just do. The KGB produced pieces of paper that were impregnated with just a trace of a chemical.

The way to do this right, I had to be really, really careful. I had to make sure that everything was totally clean. If you didn't know what you were looking for, what chemical you were looking for, you wouldn't find anything. Oh, wow. That's cool. So you're getting some of these skills. What was it? Surveillance detection or something? Yes. Surveillance detection route. This is actually an internationally recognized abbreviation. The FBI uses it the same way. So this is what you do.

Counterintelligence need to follow you when you are out and about. And so the idea was that you have to, it's fictitious reason to go there, there, and there. Department stores, going to a movie and buying a ticket. And the whole idea is if counterintelligence follows you, they know that you're doing what you're doing. However, there's no proof.

If you see the same face twice within three hours, you know that you're being followed. I had really extensive training in Moscow where we practiced this about a dozen times. And sometimes I had nobody following me and sometimes I had a whole team following me.

And it was a competition. And the test was to figure out who was following you. Yes, I won every time. Oh, nice.

For 25 years, Brightview Senior Living Associates have been committed to creating a vibrant culture and delivering exceptional services, making Brightview a great place to work and live. If you're looking for a rewarding opportunity to serve your local community and grow, we want you to join our team. Brightview Senior Living is growing and actively seeking vibrant associates to join our community teams, including directors, healthcare, activities, hospitality, and dining. Apply today at careers.brightviewseniorliving.com. Equal employment opportunities.

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So you've got some serious skills now. You're getting training in Moscow. Let's move on to your placement. So you were born Albrecht Dietrich in East Germany. But to get to the United States, you needed an American identity. How did all that go down? Well, first of all, we had to have some documentation that –

allowed me to live in the United States, right? There was only one paper that was important. It was the birth certificate of Jack Barsky, a child who passed away at the age of 11. This is what...

what the KGB used to steal identities, and this is what's still being used, if possible. Wow, Jack Barsky was a real, there was like a birth record then, and a birth certificate. Yes. One of those diplomats who worked in Washington, D.C., he was wandering around in cemeteries, and he found the... Tombstone, yeah. Tombstone, right. And it says here, Jack Barsky, born 1944, passed away in 19...

And you want a child because then they don't have a life of records and all of the evidence of that. That's correct. Wow. That's kind of dark. And in those days, it was really easy to get a birth certificate. You didn't have to show why you were entitled to get it.

All you had to do is fill out a form and then pay the fee. - So active agents kind of procured your papers. - That's correct. - And then you had that to travel with. - Right. - So how did they decide, did they have a conversation with you? What do you want to do? Where do you want to go? - No, no, this was, there was never a really well constructed plan.

It was more of an idea. You just go and then you do good things. So basically the assignment is just go and be curious. Go and find your way up in society. There was a master plan that if that had worked,

I would have become a really, really dangerous agent. The plan was for me to get all the documentation that you need to operate in the United States, work there, including a passport. And with that passport, they were going to send me back to a European country that speaks German, like Austria or Switzerland. And then they would have had me

open some kind of a company, establish a company, and they would funnel a lot of money into that company. So within two years, I would go back to the United States, a millionaire. Oh, that's nice. Well, what happened to, this is a great plan. And you get to be a millionaire.

Yeah. That's a hell of a plan. Yeah, I failed. I was able to, when I got to the United States with that birth certificate, I was able to get a social security card. I was able to get a driver's license. So I was functional in the United States. But the journey was really well planned, except for the very last leg of the trip. The way I traveled, it was impossible to trace me back to Moscow.

So from Moscow, I took a plane. I went to Belgrade. From Belgrade, I took a train to Vienna, neutral country. In Vienna, I changed passports. I met a KGB agent, diplomat.

who gave me a second forged passport, and I gave him back the first one that I used. From Vienna, I traveled by train to Rome. Now we are in NATO territory, right? But I'm already like twice removed. And there I got a Canadian passport. Okay.

And that gets you into where? Where do you go from there? From Rome, I went to Mexico City. And in Mexico City, I bought a ticket to my hometown to fly back to Toronto with a stopover in Chicago. So they had me deplane at O'Hare. And that's when the trouble started. I mean, I should have been busted there.

Right then and there, because the KGB had nobody. There were no Soviet citizens in Chicago. Nobody knew about Chicago, anything. Wow. Okay. So when you first stepped off that plane at Chicago O'Hare and you're suddenly you're walking on American soil, is that, that must've been an incredible rush. Yes. Particularly once I got through customs and immigration, I said, yes, I did it. Yeah. But, but before that, it was like,

Anxiety. Yeah. A lot of it. Okay. I would imagine. I mean, I would be crippled with fear at this point, but you being fearless, get through it.

Okay, so you get to New York City eventually. I'm so curious, you know, we talked a little bit about your assignment, but like, what the hell are you doing day to day? I had some tasks. There were a couple of times where they actually asked me to do something really important. One of them was to find an ex-KGB agent who was actually an assassin who had defected.

and was under a death sentence, and they wanted me to find out where he is. - Did you find him? - Yes, I did. - Whoa, and did they send someone after him? - They didn't, thank God. It's another one of those movie scenes. I went to San Bernardino, and they told me, "See if he's still teaching at the University of California."

Wait, an assassin had gotten a job as a college professor? Yes. Well, yeah, he defected. Yeah, but still, that's a pretty different skill set. Well, you know, an assassin has to be really smart to get away with what they're doing, right? I guess so, yeah. So I'm walking up and down the hallways of the University of California, Bernardino, the last door on the left.

There's a nameplate that says Nikolai Khaklov. That's the guy I was looking for. And as I'm looking at this nameplate, the door opens and he comes out. This is this like delicious situation where an ex-KGB agent who was under a death sentence is looking at a KGB agent who's trying to find him. Neither I nor he knew who we were. I found out much later.

He died from natural causes. Yeah, right. Yeah, right. I was also asked to operate as a spotter. You know, when the KGB had a methodology how to recruit people, first you got a spotter who looks like

who looks for talent. So are you looking for people to flip Americans who might work for the KGB? Yes. So at the time, the Soviet Union has this kind of research process called Operation Ryan. Just for the listener, Operation Ryan was this kind of insane thing where spies all over the world were asked to just give information

the Soviet Union confirmation that America was going to start a nuclear war, basically. You are the first and only interviewer who knows exactly what that was. I didn't know at the time. I wasn't told there was an operation, but I was told to keep it periodically. Take a look at the Navy Weapons Station at the shore of New Jersey. Mm-hmm.

to just go look at it or what? - See if I see signs of preparation for war. - Yes. - I was also trained to recognize based on the silhouette, what kind of ships are out there. - Oh, wow. - And,

I had no idea I was part of that program. But you're reporting back on sort of what you're seeing as possible war preparations. I never saw anything out of the ordinary. In fact, there was no preparation for war. But, you know, the fellow who was in charge of the KGB at that time, Andropov, was absolutely certain that Ronald Reagan will push the button.

OK, that's fascinating because there's controversy over whether Andropov actually believed Reagan wanted to start a nuclear war or if they just wanted us to think they believed that. No, I believe my interaction with my handlers in Moscow indicated to me that they were

They were really afraid of Ronald Reagan. And there was some element of cultural...

misunderstanding because Reagan was a believing Christian. And he sometimes quoted the Bible, particularly the Book of Revelation. The scariest book of the Bible. Right. So in a communist country, nobody had any kind of idea, particularly the ones in the decision makers. They didn't have context as to what, when you quote the Bible, what that means.

And clearly, Ronald Reagan was not

He didn't think he was appointed to accelerate the end of the world. But, you know, Andropov and, you know, the central committee of the party, they were really afraid of this man. They believed that Reagan wanted to end the world? Is that what you're saying? He wanted to start a war. And the war would have been the end of the world, yes. Well, of course. Yeah, yeah. Of course it would have been Armageddon. But what...

How do you know that? What signals were you getting that Andropov really thought Reagan wanted to start a war? Obviously, I never had a conversation with Andropov, but I had a conversation with people that were in his organization, and they were all like deathly afraid of Ronald Reagan. Wow. Wow, that is fascinating. And are you aware of the Able Archer 83 incident?

military exercise that was happening right now? I wasn't aware of it when it happened, but I know what you're talking about. During the Cold War, we came close three, four times to a nuclear exchange, and every time it was based on a misunderstanding. And that is what I'm worried about right now, with Russia being on edge and

Mistakes can be made and you have one mistaken launch, it's over.

For 25 years, Brightview Senior Living Associates have been committed to creating a vibrant culture and delivering exceptional services, making Brightview a great place to work and live. If you're looking for a rewarding opportunity to serve your local community and grow, we want you to join our team. Brightview Senior Living is growing and actively seeking vibrant associates to join our community teams, including directors, healthcare, activities, hospitality, and dining. Apply today at careers.brightviewseniorliving.com. Equal employment opportunities.

Text BVJOBS to 97211 to apply. Hey, this is Jodi Sweetin from the podcast How Rude, Tanneritos. As a nostalgic voice from your past, I'm here to remind you that amongst the stressful and chaotic existence we live in 2024, you deserve to get away. It's time for a vacation, no matter when you're hearing this. And let me tell you how you'll get there.

The 2024 Hyundai Santa Fe. Want to bring the family to the mountains with the Santa Fe's available H-Track all-wheel drive? Well, it's got standard third-row seating and available dual wireless charging pads for the kids who just want to stare at their phone and not talk to you. You know what I mean. Visit HyundaiUSA.com or call 562-314-4603 for more details. Hyundai. There's joy in every journey.

The fall is creeping up on us, but we don't have to give in just yet because summer doesn't stop in Myrtle Beach, South Carolina. You can still get out and enjoy 60 miles of beaches, eat in the South's newest foodie haven with over 2,000 restaurants, and have endless fun at hundreds of attractions. Hold on to that sweet summer feeling a little longer at the beach. Myrtle Beach, South Carolina. Plan your trip at visitmyrtlebeach.com. That's visitmyrtlebeach.com.

So I want to back up a little bit. You had a few specific tasks, but you also had this kind of grand, larger mission that was really up to you, it sounds like. How were you communicating with Moscow while you were in the United States? What were some of those tricks as a lone wolf? Yeah. So if...

If you ever watch the Americans, there are a lot of scenes where the handler of the two illegals is meeting with them. That never happened. There was a hard rule that you do not meet, an illegal will not meet with another agent in the country where he operates. So communication was...

It wasn't direct. It was indirect. They sent me the stuff, whatever they wanted to communicate in Morse code once a week. By the way, that's still being used and it's significantly better than using social media or the internet because when you send signals out into the ether...

You know, people know where it came from, but people don't know who's actually listening to it. Right. And then to communicate back to Russia, what are you doing? Secret writing. I had what they call convenience addresses. These were collaborators with the KGB in other countries. So I would write a letter.

As if I knew about them, I knew anything. Said, I'm sorry, you know, you broke your leg or something like open text. And then I overlaid this with some secret writing. And then I would mail this thing. And then they would know that this had to be handed over to the KGB agent. That's wild. Okay, so at some point during this process, you decide...

You don't want to be a KGB agent anymore. What happened? Where was the ideological shift? Because now you're an American and you seem to like America a lot. Yeah, well, it was a, what I call a slow decontamination. The first thing that I realized was that capitalism isn't really as oppressive to the workers as I thought, because when I started working for MetLife as a programmer, I

It was a nice place and they treated us well. We got free lunch. Other than like, you know, bad bosses and, and, and,

not very nice coworkers, I couldn't find, institutional evil wasn't there. But when I resigned from the KGB, I put in my letter explicitly, I will not betray the cause, I will not betray my motherland, East Germany, and I meant that.

And, you know, and then I had a career. I developed my version of the American dream. It wasn't ideological, but it was like, you know, I liked it here, you know. And I became what they wanted me to become, a real American. You know, I led a normal life. At one point, I became a professional. I worked as a computer programmer. And, you know, if you're a young man, you have some...

you know, your hormones are still there, right? Sure. Your job is inherently lonely as hell. Yes. So I started dating and I found a really pretty young woman who was

because he had emigrated from South America. If I had gotten close to a born American, they would have figured out something odd about this guy. She wouldn't have known. Turns out that she had emigrated, but she was actually illegal. So I helped her become legal. Oh, you married her? I married her. And so in 1987, my daughter was born.

And, you know, this is, I don't know, do you have any girls? - I do have two girls. - Okay. Don't you love them? Didn't you love them like crazy when they grew up? - Well, there's still quite little, and I will say it is a form of love that I never even contemplated before. - Exactly. - It's so deep, it is so profound. - And that is exactly what happened to me. I mean, this girl,

was and still is extremely pretty huge eyes and i mean just like beautiful and uh

When she was 18 months old, the KGB sent me an urgent message that I should return to the Soviet Union because I was about to be arrested by the FBI. It was a red herring. It wasn't true, but they believed it. And obviously I should have believed it too, right? And you couldn't bring the child back to Russia with you? Oh, no, no, no, no, no. I kept the fact that I married this woman. Oh.

Oh, OK. I didn't tell. You were keeping secrets from the KGB. Oh, wow. Of course. This is you really are fearless. Your love for your daughter is what kept you in the United States. And explain to me why you don't just say, I'll just keep being a spy in the United States forever.

You actually want to leave the KGB at this point. Well, they thought I was about to be arrested. So they wanted me back in the Soviet Union. And that forced my hand. I see. Because I had to tell them that I'm not coming. Right. So they wouldn't search for me.

And so my last letter in secret writing stated the following. Thank you for pointing that out. I'm sorry.

I'm going to be careful, but I can't come because I have HIV AIDS. Whoa. But you didn't. Of course I didn't. And so once the KGB finds out that you have AIDS or that you've said you have AIDS, they're terrified. They don't want you back. Oh, no way. Okay, so now you're off the hook with the KGB once.

I didn't know this. I was hoping for it, but I actually was 100% because they went to my German family and told them that I already died. Wow. So then they just forget about you. They did. Absolutely did. I spent about three months after I mailed that letter being very cautious, careful, looking for FBI surveillance, looking for KGB. I was so well-trained. I knew everything.

that there was nothing happening. So I told the mother of this child, I said, okay, you know what? We should start looking at moving into the suburbs and buying a house. That's when I, that was my first step to become an American. Wow. All right. So a million questions, but the big one is...

You left the KGB. Eventually you actually became an American citizen. The FBI got in touch with you and you became, you know, an open book to them. They then offer you citizenship. And here's my question. Once you became public.

Why isn't the KGB trying to kill you now? Well, first of all, my case is really old. But you're still a liability. I mean, you're telling these stories all about kind of Russian tradecraft and all these things. And might I add, sometimes it seems that Russian assassinations aren't just about keeping someone quiet. There's an element of vengeance there. Yes. Why are you safe?

If they had a list of priorities, I'm near the bottom. Got it. Okay, next question. It has been said that there is no such thing as a former KGB agent. You are now living your life very publicly and openly and transparently.

But who's to say you're not still sending secret messages back to Russia? And I say it with a laugh, but it's a serious question. Yeah, no, you, you, you gotta trust me. Oh, is that right? I just have to trust you. Okay. All right. So, so here's the thing. Uh,

When I was debriefed by the FBI, you know, and I dumped everything that I could possibly remember on them, the last thing they had me do is I had to pass a lie detector test. I passed that test. And then I spent, I don't know how many years, but seven, eight years as a trusted source. I flipped completely. I'm as anti-communist as you can get.

What is Jack Barsky's philosophy at this point? What have you learned from everything you've been through? That question was asked of me several years ago, and I wasn't prepared. I had to think about it, but I came up with the best answer. It sounds a little bit hokey, but it's true. And this is what I'm telling you. Love conquers all. That's it.

That's it. Yeah. You know what? It does sound hokey, but it isn't. It is very profound. It's true. It's true. I lived it. Okay. Because I, if I had not been in love with this little girl, I would have made the beeline to Moscow and East Germany and lived the good life. Because at the time I had nothing but good things back there. And the love kept me here.

Well, I think that's a great place to wrap it up. And I cannot thank you enough for your generosity with your time and your life and your story and sharing all of it. Jack Barsky, I really, really appreciate it. Thanks so much. You're welcome. Take care. Bye-bye.

Well, there you have it. I hope you enjoyed that interview as much as I did. If you want to learn more about Jack's amazing life and his crazy story, check out his book, Deep Undercover, My Life and Tangled Allegiances as a KGB spy in America. There's also a really cool podcast all about his life called The Agent. Definitely check that out. All right. This is your host, Ed Helms, signing off.

Snafu is a production of iHeartRadio, Film Nation Entertainment and Pacific Electric Picture Company in association with Gilded Audio. It's executive produced by me, Ed Helms, Milan Pipelka, Mike Falbo, Andy Chug and Whitney Donaldson. This bonus episode was produced and edited by Olivia Canney.

Our lead producers are Sarah Joyner and Alyssa Martino. Our producer is Carl Nellis. Associate producer, Tori Smith. Our senior editor is Jeffrey Lewis. Olivia Canney is our production assistant. Our creative executive is Brett Harris. Engineering and technical direction by Nick Dooley. Special thanks to Allison Cohen and Matt Eisenstadt.

For 25 years, Brightview Senior Living Associates have been committed to creating a vibrant culture and delivering exceptional services, making Brightview a great place to work and live. If you're looking for a rewarding opportunity to serve your local community and grow, we want you to join our team. Brightview Senior Living is growing and actively seeking vibrant associates to join our community teams, including directors, healthcare, activities, hospitality, and dining. Apply today at careers.brightviewseniorliving.com. Equal employment opportunities.

Text BVJOBS to 97211 to apply. This episode is brought to you by FX's The Old Man. The hit show returns starring Jeff Bridges and John Lithgow. The former CIA agent sets off on his most important mission to date, to recover his daughter after she's kidnapped. The stakes get higher and more secrets are uncovered. FX's The Old Man premieres September 12th on FX. Stream on Hulu.