Ep. 114: Unpacking the Trophy vs. Meat Hunting Controversy
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Welcome back to another episode of Cutting the Distance. Today I'm here with my good buddy, Derek Durham, and co-host. We're going to jump into a topic that sparks a lot of debate within the hunting community, outside the hunting community, maybe even more so.

Trophy hunting versus meat hunting. And I don't even understand what the difference is. But it's also being thrown around now, you know, in potential legislation and bills. I know it was specifically put in the Colorado bill that just thankfully got, you know, shot down by the voters. You know, trophy hunting. And it's, in my opinion, it's used to romanticize and pull at the heartstrings of the voters. And then some of what I would call like the over-the-top crazy protect animal at all costs types of people. So welcome to the show, Dirk.

Yeah, yeah. How's it going? Good, good. Hunting season for the most part's all wrapped up for us and getting back to some normal topics that are a little bit different than our normal tips and tactics, technical stuff. So kind of excited to jump into this one. I was reading the social posts the other day and it was from a newspaper, you know, so I'm sitting there thinking, oh, I'm not overly dramatic, but I like to see both sides, right? You know, for when it's a newspaper, you're going to get the hunters and the anti-hunters.

Right. So me not being able to help myself, I click on the comment section just because I like a good, you know, some mud slinging and like to see that. I like to see the pigs wrestle in the mud a little bit. And and I kind of seen how some of the hunters responded, you know, back and forth and why the other side, you know, the trophy hunting, the protect trophy hunting, trophy hunting is bad type people. They they're completely wrong.

They do a better job at talking at times versus, you know, the majority of hunters are just like, uh, trophy hunting's good. I'll shoot what I want and I'll shoot as much as I want. And I'm like, this isn't good messaging either. So I'm like, let's, let's throw it on the podcast. And I've always had a lot of thoughts and confusion and, uh,

just what is trophy hunting you know i think that's where you have to kind of start if we're going to throw a word out there we should all be able to understand you know what it means so in your opinion what would you or how would you define you know what is trophy hunting or what's it to you i think that's almost like a loaded question um it's kind of like one of those um

It means something to everyone differently. It's almost like, to me, it's almost like ethics, right? So if you ask one person to say, okay, what's ethical behavior? You get a room full of people and you ask each person, each person's going to give you a different take on it. And I think trophy hunting is a lot like that. If it's coming from an anti-hunting perspective, trophy hunting is basically...

You're killing an animal for its antlers or skull, hide, whatever its attributes are. You're killing it for that physical attribute and discarding anything else with the animal. Which, from a hunting perspective, that's...

not necessarily accurate because a lot of people will say trophy hunting is, you know, they're, they are looking for the largest, biggest measuring animal they can find for their tag. Um,

But they're not, they're not wasting meat. You know, they're not just shooting an animal and leaving, you know, taking, you know, taking the antlers or the hide or the head, um, and just leaving it to waste. Um, that's not, that's, that's actually poaching, you know, cause you know, that's, that's illegal. So, um,

so as hunters, you know, where, you know, we're going to shoot a big elk, for instance, the big, like a trophy, a trophy hunt or a trophy hunter. You're going to, you're trying to shoot the biggest one you can get. Cause it's probably a limited opportunity. Maybe almost a once in a lifetime chance for you to kill a really mature, big antlered elk, but you're going to take that meat home too, or share it with friends. Um,

But the meat will be harvested as well. Now you're going to put that, that set of antlers on your wall, whether you put on a shoulder mount or a European mount and, um, you know, the anti hunters feel that's disgusting. Um, they, they don't understand though that at that point you're honoring that animal, right? You're, you're putting it on the wall. I mean, that, that animal's life will be remembered for as long as those antlers are in existence. Right. Right.

that that animal's life is honored. It's, um, the hunt was honored, you know, everything about it is honored. Whereas they don't see it that way. They don't want to have that understanding of it, I guess. Yeah. They just look at it as a, like a prize or a trophy, like, like a trophy that you would win at a, you know, race or, or something. So let me, um, in this, I have to apologize. I told Dirk before this podcast, but this one, this whole topic is like a soup sandwich because, um,

I've tried to like, how am I going to organize this? How are we not going to go left and right and keep this thing in the middle? So I'm going to apologize. But so by that definition, so my son's got his first buck, which is a fork and horn on his wall. Is he now a trophy hunter or is it just that he's proud? You know? So it's like, how do you, you know, defining it by, by antlers on the wall, it's like similar to you. I, you know, we have a lot of family gatherings at my house. We, you know, we built my house to do that sort of thing. And I've got quite a few animals on the wall, but

Those more than the trophy. Yeah. It's an higher quality, you know, higher caliber type animal, you know, that, that we, but there's not a single uncle or dad or somebody involved in that hunt that doesn't come in my house. And we can sit and tell a 30 minute story about that hunt and how cold it was or how hot it was, or who ran out of water, who forgot their lunch, you know, which one of my overweight uncles ran out of food and had to beg for some, you know, it's like those sorts of things. So it's like trophy hunting in that aspect, like,

in a roundabout way, he, it met some sort of criteria that I had to get it on the wall. Those are the, you know, it somehow in a roundabout way still leads to memories and everything. So it's, it's very hard to describe. And, and I've always struggled with, especially when you let, so let's go back to trophy hunting versus meat hunting and not to get overly scientific. They both obviously have the word hunting in it, but then it's like you go and treat

trophy hunting like it's some separate thing you know out in the woods or out in the mountains or out in the tree stand like if you're trophy hunting you're doing something different than the meat hunter right which i've i've always struggled like how do you make that connection because i'm doing the same um regardless of i'm doing the same thing uh

And, and so it's not like this separate thing when you hear somebody say, oh, they're going trophy hunting or they are trophy hunting. It's like, no, it's the same damn thing as the meat hunter. I just have set a different, a different, like I've moved the bar, right? I've moved the bar to a different level. Um, and we're going to get into it. Like it, a lot of times for me, if you want to lay, you know, we're going to be labeled a trophy hunter versus a non it's like, what tag do I have?

What is available on this hunt? Like, what's the odds of killing something better or bigger? Or is it a unit that's managed for certain things? So I've always struggled with, like, it's not a separate thing. It's the same dang thing, you know, if you're hunting. It's just whether you've put a certain...

a certain limitation on what you're willing to notch your tag on. Um, and so I've, I've struggled with that, uh, you know, a lot. And then you alluded to it, you know, there's this idea that, you know, and this is, I think this is what the anti hunters, um, the animal lovers, whatever we're going to refer to them as like, this is the picture that they want to paint is the idea that trophy hunters go out there. They're there for nothing but the horns. And then they basically walk away from the meat, right? Like, you know, we've talked about that. It's, I don't know anybody who,

that considers himself a hunter or somebody that I would consider a hunter that would ever do that. Even if you want to consider yourself a trophy hunter that, and this is where I get a little, little,

on the fence about it is, you know, and then you get the word thrill killer out there. Like, are you just hunting for strictly the sport? Like you just want the challenge to kill an animal that's got, you know, these senses and, and eyesight and all this stuff to challenge you. And then you donate the meat, right? So you're out there, you're not going to eat any of it. You don't want to deal with it. Um, but even then I would question, like, is there a more charitable act than that? Like that person went out there, spent their own money,

use their own resources and then most of the time they donate to a food bank people that are in more need so it's like is there a more charitable selfless act than feeding someone else with your own money and so i i can't really shy at that either um well you i mean which is harder buying a couple turkeys and taking them to the food bank and getting that and spending money or whatever it's buying half of a beef and taking it to the food bank spending a bunch of money

Donating to the food bank or just making a monetary donation. I mean, that's a good feeling. Sure. Yeah. But the effort that took for that donation is tremendous.

I mean, you had to earn the money. Yeah, of course. But to go on a trophy hunt, let's say you don't want to eat the meat or don't like wild game or can't transport it, whatever. You had to like earn the money. You had to acquire the license tag. Then you had to show up and then do all the work. And let's face it, sometimes these trophy hunting units, as some call them,

It's not an easy hunt. You still have to show up and hunt hard and it's physically demanding. You have to, you have to break the animal down, keep the meat clean, keep it sanitary, remove it from the field, have it packaged, processed, and then put it, take it to the food bank. I mean, I don't know any, that's way harder than just giving a charitable donation to the food bank from a non-hunting perspective. Yep. And I can't,

I can't frown upon somebody wanting, and I would be lying to say that at times I don't hunt for the sport of it. Right. To be honest, I'd be 400 pounds and, and still six foot three if it wasn't running. So I I'm out there to get in shape. I love seeing new places. I love, you know, all of this. And so it's like, there's part of me that, that loves a challenge. Um, like I could, how am I going to say it in a,

My intention is not to put down meat hunters at all, because anybody that knows my background, you know, my, my upbringing, we never passed a legal bull. We would sometimes, you know, growing up, we'd let some smaller bucks go, um, depending on what the meat situation was, how much meat we had left over from last year, what the cooler was looking like. So in no way, but I would say every time meat hunting is easier, right? Meat hunting is always going to be easier. It's always going to be easier than trophy hunting. And so, um,

So from a conservation, and I'm not trying to sit on a high horse here by no means, but by me being, and I wouldn't consider myself a trophy hunter. I'm just a guy that's out there wanting to find something above average. We'll say that. By doing that, I'm actually helping out on the conservation side, right? Like I'm letting a younger animal grow.

you know, live another day. Um, I'm, I'm letting that animal grow up to be a little bit older. Um, I'm, I'm helping keep the numbers up for the chance that I may not kill something by the end of that hunt. And so, you know, so when it comes to this conservation side, it's like, all right, I feel that trophy hunting or is, is better for, for,

for the animals on the landscape. It's, it's going to give you more, more numbers. Um, it's, you know, you, you give them a chance to, to get a little bit older and a little bit smarter, which I think helps it. You know, these, anybody that's hunted for very long, um, you know, your, your does and fawns always feel the safest. Um, your small bucks, you know, sometimes feel more safe than that, I guess as well. But, you know, those animals are the low hanging fruit and, and, uh, yeah, there's that argument as well that, uh,

You know, by not being a meat hunter, you're actually helping keep more animals on the ground as well. When I was a kid, we had a lot of deer around where I lived. And I mean, there were a ton of deer. And after the first couple of years of deer hunting, um, it became apparent that, you know, with just a little bit of effort, I'd be able to go out and shoot a deer for meat. My family, you know,

has always been, you know, meat hunters. And my dad, like, especially he's like, I don't want to stinking bucks or I don't know one of those stinking bowls. You know, he only shot one antlered, um, animal my entire life. You know, when he was a young man, I think he'd shot some, but most of his life he'd shot, you know, uh, cows, cow, elk, and, and doe deer. But, um, I,

I loved to hunt. I hunted. I wanted to hunt every single day. I didn't play sports. I wanted to hunt every single day. I'd go out before school. I'd go out after school. So if I tagged out on the first nice doe I saw, my season was going to be over. So...

selfishly, I wanted to hunt more. So I'm like, I want to hold out for a big buck. Um, this is when I first started hunting deer. I didn't have, I didn't hunt elk yet. And I just wanted to shoot a really big buck and a mature deer.

because I wanted to keep hunting. Right. So I, I was selective. I, I started passing little bucks, started passing does and stuff, um, until I could kill a big buck and it made my season longer. And just for the love of being out there, uh, you know, I loved being outdoors. I love, I love seeing lots of animals. I loved, I loved everything about it. And then, you know, with the possibility of like maybe getting a big one, um,

And there was lots of little ones that got away and some big ones that got away too. Cause you're like, ah, it's that one picking up. Oh, he's gone. Yeah. So I don't see a, I don't see a problem with it. Yeah. So let's get, we'll start with in my, the arguments for trophy hunting. Um, and I hate when we talk about wildlife and it comes down to funding for conservation, right? So funding all of our States, I believe all are managed by a fish and game agency of some sort.

um you know trophy hunts or trophy hunting um is is you know conducted through a regulated system where there's permits and fees um those funds are then used to support the wages um you know the biologists the the legislative people the concert you know that money goes to conservation initiatives you know your anti-poaching efforts you know even local communities um

trophy hunting or what and and throughout this throughout this podcast i'm gonna use trophy hunting just so we can stay on topic i i don't necessarily consider it trophy hunting but for you know to keep us on so trophy hunting you know you go to some of these places in rural new mexico trophy hunting and and the good units that funds an entire community um that funds most of our fish and game agencies you know i always me and dirk argue all the time about non-residents funding idaho's fish and game but

If there wasn't a potential for me to draw a good tag, there are years I wouldn't buy my $150 license. So then I could put my, whatever it is, $12, $15 apps in, right? So that $170, whether it's a donation or not, I've drawn one take there, but you give them that money. And that is what runs that state's

You know, whether it's winter feed, I don't even know if you guys want her feet. I'm just going through things in other States that, that do that sort of stuff. So that, that funding, um, for conservation is, and, and, uh, I, I believe I heard Clay Newcomb, our good buddy, Clay, who has a great podcast over there at Barry Greece. When he was on the Rogan podcast, Rogan brought up the, the, the topic of trophy hunting and I'm Clay did a great job on this topic. Trophy hunting, the idea of trophy hunting is,

is maybe what saved our big game herds anyways, right? Because in the same thing that saved African game animals, it finally put a value on them, which then detoured the poachers because the people that put value on them now protected those animals, right? And so without that protection of being labeled a trophy animal or the animal itself now having some intrinsic value more than the meat,

actually help save the pop you know help in in a way save that population so there's funding in conservation but then that funding or the value that we put on you know if you can imagine a deer walking around with a 500 bill you know above their head like on the cartoons or on video games like that deer has value now because of what's the potential that's on his head whether that's right or wrong or maybe that's where you know meat hunters can say like but

It shouldn't have a value like that because of what's on its head, but I would love to debate them or challenge them. Would that deer exist in that place if we just let meat hunters go and go gather all the meat they want? There wouldn't be a whole lot left, right? We wouldn't have anything to hunt. So there's got to be some sort of management, which in a roundabout way, I'm getting back to the funding because of trophy animals and the value that these critters do have. Yeah, absolutely. It put big game animals on a pedestal.

to where people respected them and respected their value instead of just considering them just a food source. Which, yeah, you're 100% right. We've all seen plenty of gadgets and fads come and go, but here's one product that stood the test of time. Seafoam motor treatment. Lots of hunters and anglers know that seafoam helps engines run better and last longer.

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I feel that once again, we're going back to trophy hunting. Trophy hunting is good for managing populations. That selective hunting of mature animals, whether they're past their breeding prime, whatever we want to get into on that. It's a good method. In areas where it's managed very well, and I have to, I'm not a very experienced whitetail hunter. I'm three years in, but let's go to like the Midwest where I would say you're able to manage a

a tight-knit population very, very well, right? They've shown through years and years of doing this that it aids in the health of your herd. You've got better animals on the landscape. You've got, and so by shooting these, these younger animals, and then you've got older animals die off. Well, by shooting the older animal that would die off within a couple of years, you give the, a chance for that younger buck to escape and do all of these things.

And I think out West, like we should just be able to translate, you know, transpose and move that out here. Now I know there's other factors, you know, we've got more predators, we've got more of this or that, but I feel like,

The trophy hunting mindset, killing that older, um, you know, animal that's rutted hard. It's more susceptible to dying off on a bad winter. Um, it's going to help manage populations, which gives people more opportunity, more tags, longer seasons, all of the things that we all love, whether you're a meat hunter or, or a trophy hunter.

Oh, absolutely. It's very apparent. If you look at any western state, southwestern state, anywhere we have elk, mule deer, and you look at limited entry units, limited entry areas, or even like Arizona, for instance, they've got fantastic elk in the areas. It's very limited, and people are trying to kill a trophy bull, a very mature bull, Utah.

um, mule deer in, in anywhere or in Eastern Montana where in very limited access and they have giant elk and huge elk herds everywhere. It's if they just let people go shoot those indiscriminately, like, okay, here's your general tag. Go ahead.

Those herds would not be what they are. I mean, there's no argument about it because you can reference other areas where they do have a general over the cat, over the counter type tag. And the, the herds are not as flourishing. There's just not as many elk or deer on the landscape.

Yeah. And I mean, we, a lot of people in the hunting community like the rag on or, or, you know, instantly say that fishing game offices or agencies don't do a good job managing. I think across the West, they did a pretty good job of giving us a pretty good balance of opportunity versus like trophy. So I think,

um you know there's there's over-the-counter units where you're going to go you know ride the struggle bus and you're going to have a 10 chance and then there's going to be units where you have a 40 chance of success but and have a chance at a giant bull so the one thing in this big and i don't i don't envy their position at all because they're trying to balance you know the extreme meat hunter to the extreme trophy hunter and everybody in between you everybody wants something different everybody hunts with a different weapon um but yeah it's they they

there there's drastic drastic differences on the landscape when a unit's managed for trophy potential and trophy quality versus opportunity you know meat hunters opportunity and uh

I would maybe, I don't know. I didn't think very much about this argument, but I'd almost make the argument that more meat is harvested from these trophy units with a lot less tags and more meats harvested from these meat eater units, you know, or meat hunter units that are over the counter wide open to everybody. Um, I, I didn't do any fact checking on that, but just my understanding and just, you know, what we see like, all right, percentages are way higher. Yeah. There's less tags, but

Um, you know, when you add success and they might be close to, if we're truly talking about meat ending up in somebody's freezer, um, trophy units might do just as good a job. An animal size, right? A 10 year old bull elk is a lot bigger than a two and a half year old bull elk. I mean, let's, let's just face it. I mean, there's a lot more meat there. Oh, Dirk's getting into that one, like little, another little slippery slope in here is, and trust me, I come from a place where.

You know, we, we, you know, the youngsters kill spike bucks and as you get older, you kill bigger bucks. So I'm not, I'm not saying anything, but that's the one argument I struggle with. And I don't know how to.

how to expand on it or talk about it without putting somebody down, which is what I don't want to do. Um, you know, I'm a Switzerland when it comes to this stuff, I just want to be in the middle. I want everybody to do what they want to do as long as it's legal. Um, so I'll put that out there, but don't make the meat hunter argument when you drove across the state with gas prices, where they are to shoot a one and a half year old deer and tell me that you don't care because you're a meat hunter. Um, now there's arguments to be made that is wild organic meat. And, but, uh,

I've been there. I've, I've cut open, I've, I've skinned, I've cut up a lot of deer and elk.

And it's drastic. You know, you're getting half the deer, if that, or you're getting half the elk on a spike bull versus a six and a half or seven and a half year old bull, maybe less, maybe less meat. And so. Yeah, definitely. Um, um, well, I used to work with some guys, you know, and, and they were, you know, I'm just a meat hunter. I'm like, well, I'm a meat hunter too. And just, I just like to hopefully get a more mature animal, but.

Like this year, I shot a spike elk. I mean, I'm not that much of a trophy hunter, but I will say, you know, those guys, I'm like, they would, you know, buy...

They would shoot the first dough or the first thing. And I'm like, why'd you, why'd you shoot that thing so fast? Well, I need the meat. I need the meat. I'm like, oh, you guys make like steaks and burger and roasts out of it. No, no. Pepperoni. Pepperoni and jerky. I'm like, dude, that's snacks. You're making fricking snacks. That's don't, don't bullshit me, man. Yeah. Yeah. You're not, you're not sustaining your family off of that. Right. Pepperoni. What you just spent to kill that deer. You could have went to Pepperidge Farms.

at the mall and spent that same money and it, and came away with a lot more, a lot more meat. So don't, don't blow smoke up my tailpipe. Yeah. And so I'm going to, I'm not done with managing populations. I think it's only fair to give both sides. And like I say, hopefully I don't touch on this again.

I feel trophy hunting does hurt genetics in some areas. And my example is Eastern Montana, your mule deer hunting. Everybody wants a perfect four point, right? Yeah. They will shoot a two and a half year old perfect four point that scores 110 inches before they'll shoot the seven and a half year old buck. That's a two by three or a crab claw buck. Right. Right. And so this idea of trophy hunting without people, uh,

maybe fully understanding. And once again, do whatever you want, if it's legal and you got your own tag. But I feel like sometimes we're chasing the wrong trophy at times. Like if somebody pulls out a big old gnarly eight and a half year old buck that has no forks and, you know, there's a big slick to, you know, whatever it may be. Um,

I feel like at times that's better for the herd than us taking out, you know, these young four points, um, you know, same thing. We just got back from Kansas. I don't want to go, you know, go back into that, but there's times where maybe you're chasing an inches number and you got bucks running by that are, you know, bucks that are way older than that, way smarter than that, more meat than that. Like, should you take those out? And so I do think that trophy hunting is,

has hurt us or hurt some people or some not some people have skewed some people's perception of what the trophy or the challenge really is like killing that two and a half year old perfect four point was not tougher than killing the 120 inch seven and a half year old buck that doesn't have any forks yeah no absolutely absolutely um so that's that's one thing i wish

I wish we, as a collective group, if you are, you know, setting a standard or setting something you're after, like let's cross really young four points or really young 10 point white tails, um, whatever it may be, or really small six points with short times. Like those, those things are young. Um,

um like let's go chase a big old giant five point let's go you know a five point bowler let's go chase a uh a big slick two point that's legal in your area that's you know a bully buck and and running all your good you know your good breeder bucks off and i even have to back up like

That's assuming you care about the future of the genetics. And maybe I'm completely off base and this isn't biologically founded. Maybe it doesn't matter because the does carry 50% as well. But I think in our heads, we're like, we want the bucks with good forks and we want the bucks with long tines and we want the bucks and bulls with good mass to carry on and spread their genes where maybe it doesn't work that way. But that's one thing is I've got older...

And, and paid more attention. Like let's just kill the older, more mature deer than chasing a few more inches on a deer that's half its age or buck or bull. Yeah, no, absolutely. Well here, a couple of years ago when we were in, um, Montana, uh, we were hunting with your family and, um, everybody got a nice buck and we started skinning heads out. Who had the oldest deer? Was it, was it Sondy or was it? Yep. Sondy's hit scored by far the less. It was like the small, one of the smallest racks.

But it was the oldest deer, that thing's teeth were almost gone. Yep. Um, and some of the youngest deer, you know, were, were, had bigger antlers, you know? Yep. Um, so it was, it was interesting to see that, you know, you, you, you judging, you know, an animal, a trophy animal by antler size, um,

can be kind of, kind of deceiving. And you got to kind of look at everything. We, we, we face this in Kansas when we go whitetail hunting, you know, it's like, wow, that's a great 10 point, you know, a five by five. Um, but look, he's kind of narrow in the withers is his chest isn't as deep. He doesn't have a giant brisket. Um, his neck isn't huge. He's not sway back. You start looking at all these other factors, like,

oh, let's not shoot that one. Let's let him live and wait till he lives to his potential because he's not quite old enough. He's just not an old deer, even though he's got a beautiful rack.

yep yeah i mean i i love that's why i love that you know private land whitetail because you truly can manage a herd to the level you know and when we go there it's it's five and a half the goal and and randy randy managed it pretty strict but at the end of the day he's like it's just a deer right shoot what you want but he wants to kill five and a half year old deer so you can see their potential and and

I love Kansas because a lot of times out West and maybe it's our, my own fault for getting in a hurry and not looking at them through the spot or, you know, long enough. But you're, you're, like you said, you're evaluating how old is that deer? How big is its head? How big, you know, if you take the horns out of the picture and you're just looking at a body, but you know, it's a buck, like how big is he? You know, barrel chested, you know, sway in his back.

Um, and maybe I should do more of that out West. Um, you know, a lot of times if you look at their face long enough, you can just tell how old that buck is or his head. And, um, you start to look at those things and that's a fact of my, you know, that, that original point is I think we should manage more on age class.

or or a potential like we've seen the potential of this animal now let's you know kill it at that point um you know whether regardless of what it has up there i know it's tough i'm a hypocrite because i don't necessarily follow through with that i just think you know i know it would be probably a better way to manage the herd um for health and and all of that yeah absolutely um so some of the criticisms of trophy hunting i want to get into those we've we've kind of already talked about that um

You know, that, that wasteful, the, the belief that it prioritizes, you know, the vanity over the utility. I, we've already kind of wrote this one off. I don't, I think that that's smoke and mirrors. It's drummed up by the anti hunters and it's all a bunch of hogwash. And I don't, I don't even think we need to spend any more time on that unless you got any other points you want to throw in. I just think it's mudslinging from their point. You know, they don't want us shooting anything.

You know, let, let's just be honest. They don't want us to kill any animals. They want this perfect utopian, uh, world where animals run free and nobody ever kills them. They die of old age, curled up and next to a bed of flowers and, you know, pass peacefully in the night. But, um, you know, they're going to try to, you know, look at the work, show examples of the worst scenario. Some rich fat cat went and paid a bunch of money and, and shot this animal for its, for its life.

or it's rhinoceros horn or whatever it is, you know, um, you know, just trying to make it look as bad, make the optics as bad as possible. And then they go ahead and, you know, we'll just go ahead and leave out all these other details that, that rhino, that, that, that guy paid a whole bunch of money, just kept that whole, uh,

local community of people alive for the next year. Um, and kept a whole bunch of other rhinos alive, um, for, for tomorrow as well. You know, they just don't paint the picture that like what all the, everything that's considered in the, in the hunting trophy hunting, what it does. So it, it's just mud slinging, you know? Yep. And they, these people are very surgical and strategical, right? When, when they go after trophy hunting,

So Disney is the worst offender on romanticizing these animals that we've hunted forever for, from the dawn of time that we've survived on food. I would be willing to bet nobody on the face of this planet right now in their entire lineage has got here because of vegetables and fruit, right? You wouldn't have made it through winter. Everybody's ate bear, cougar, deer, elk, sheep.

Buffalo, beef, whatever it has been to be at the point they're at their life, somewhere in their lineage. I'm going to guess. I'm sure somebody could show some examples. But what Disney and other cartoon makers and book writers have did is they've romanticized these same things.

critters into their their books you know their their kid books and um you know their stories you know you got you've got movies made about you know pet bears or bears that save people and you got movies that are and then all of a sudden so they they use that against us and then they go after hey we're gonna go after bears and cat hunters first right if you like to hunt

cougars if you like to hunt bears if you're one of those really really bad hunters need to use dogs to kill those like we're really going to go after you because that's number one you hate your own pack of dogs because nobody it's animal abuse right you're going to abuse your hounds and

And then you're going to chase this poor critter up into a tree. And then you're going to kill it because you suck really bad at hunting. And so they, they go after, I don't want to call it the low hanging fruit, but I feel like society is like set this scenario up. Like we're going to put these cute little critters. We're going to make cougars and bears, cute little critters. We're going to put them in these books. We're going to put them in movies.

And then we're going to go get rid of those first. Right. Or, I mean, we can even take it to the extent of Bambi. Like that thing did hunters the biggest disservice in the world. Right. Because there's a family of deer and, and in that movie, the family and the mom and the dad get separated and whatever it is that you know where I'm going with it. But then they, they take that and then use the word trophy hunting and then try to take some of that away from us. Um, and then they depict hunters as these drunken buffoons. Yeah.

You know, you know, just low IQ, drunken buffoons stumbling through the forest, shooting everything indiscriminately. Yeah. Um, you know, they just demonize hunters that way. So immediately as a child, you know, like, oh, hunters, they're bad. Look, that guy's a jerk, you know? Yep. And.

I mean, it's funny and you can't look at the extremes all the time, but you're like the, the, you know, who would they want to have around if, if they couldn't grow a garden and, and all, you know, the world, the world went to hell in a handbasket tomorrow. You're going to need, we've got the hunters have the skills, whether you're a trophy hunter or meat hunter to like feed you and keep you alive. So it's like, you can depict this as, as drunken buffoons and idiots that can't, but most hunters I've met are pretty damn handy. They can take care of themselves and, uh,

But it's, it's one of those, you know, the criticism of trophy hunting is that we're out there, you know, spring bear in Washington, like, Oh, these guys suck so bad at bear hunting in the fall that they've got to go kill these lethargic bears when they get out of the den. Yeah. Well, that, that doesn't help us. Like they, but, but it's not founded in science. Like, Oh, a new study just came out that bears are more active as soon as they come out of the den to like quickly replenish their calorie deficit. You're like, well, that,

But they throw trophy hunting in, they throw false information, and it's a campaign, and it seems to be more out West. They just leave the whitetails and stuff alone. But it's like out West, these predators, these alpha predators, whether it's wolves. If you're a wolf hunter, you're a trophy hunter because you're not going to eat the meat. Or I'm trying to balance wildlife since they're out of balance. Or if you're a bear hunter. And so like...

I feel like as a trophy owner, and it's not even really trophy hunting. They're just, they're using that wording to target things that they don't want to see us do. And they're just, they're trying to pick the easiest one to get because of those voters or because of those lawmakers that will side with them because they're cute and cuddly.

Yeah. Um, which has got lumped into trophy hunting. Yeah. They just take everything out of context is what they do. You know, they lump all hunters in with trophy hunting and we'll have a whole bunch of people. The majority of people will probably be like, no man, I'm just going to take the first legal animal I can and go home with some meat, you know? And, and so they take offense by that, which they should, but they, um, the, the, the media and the anti-hunting, um,

crew, they're, they're just trying to demonize hunting in general. Yeah. Um, and I think, you know, like what we saw here in Colorado with the whole, um, trying to get rid of mountain lion hunting there, um,

It didn't pass. And I almost think it might've backfired a little bit because so much information got put out into the world about what mountain lion hunting and management is all about. Yeah. And, and Matt might've enlightened a lot of new people that like, Oh, Hmm. I didn't know about that. You know, maybe they'd even vote, vote on it. Maybe, you know, but they'd like, they, they got a different perspective. So, um, I think, um,

If anything good came out of that, then I think just more information out there in the world from another side instead of that one-sided media. We've all seen plenty of gadgets and fads come and go, but here's one product that stood the test of time. Seafoam motor treatment. Lots of hunters and anglers know that seafoam helps engines run better and last longer.

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So I got a question for you, you know, kind of rolling into meat hunting. If we had to separate the two, which I have a hard time doing, I think it's a very blurred line. Um, I just think it met, you know, the only difference is the, the age or the quality of animal you're willing to take. Why is meat hunting seen as more, in your opinion, more universally acceptable? Why does it face less backlash from the public?

I don't know. I think that because they, like I say, they kind of try to paint, paint that narrative of some rich jerk going out and just killing stuff with this checkbook instead of, you know, just, you know, they, they, they don't even talk about the meat being utilized, you know, like any of these African animals, they, they get mad about, you know, the villagers eat every bit of that animal, like everything. They use every bit of it. They use the hide, they use the bones, they use everything. Yeah. But,

But you'll never see that on their narrative. They'll just like, oh, this guy paid...

$300,000 to shoot Cecil the lion. Yeah. Well, I'm pretty sure the villagers ate Cecil the lion. Yeah. And made something out of his skin. Yeah. Or they were able to use, or they were able to use that money to create a new water system. Like, you know, or whatever. Schools. You know, vital. Yeah. Like, oh, we'll forget about like the good deeds that are done to the, you know, and, and obviously the biologists at some point had said this lion needs to, or it can be taken out of the, the, you know, the area. Yeah. And, and it was acceptable.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It helped those local folks live another year, you know, in a, in a hostile environment where food and money doesn't come easy. You know, our Western opinion and Western culture, we, we don't even understand what those poor folks go through over there to, to live every day. Yeah. And I think nobody ever thinks about that when they get incensed about, Oh, that guy killed it.

zebra or that guy killed a giraffe or what, how dare them, you know, that's, that's a different world there. Yep. And I've, I've always just struggled with why does it face less public backlash than trophy hunting? I've got a tag, I'm making a decision again, and the chances that there's, I'm reiterating a lot of my points. There's a chance that more animals are going to survive by me, you know, setting, setting a bar than not.

So why is there less public backlash? Is it because the word we put in front of hunting is I'm out there for a different reason now? No, I'm still out there to fill the freezer. I just like, it's just baffling to me. I, and it's, it's the most quick reduction. Like a lot of times things are more complex or nuanced. Like, all right, there's a lot of, you know, stuff to navigate here. I'm like, no, it's literally me doing the exact same thing. I just pull the trigger on something a little different.

That, that, you know, has a higher probability that something lives. Like you should hate meat hunting more than trophy hunting. If you had to, if you had to pick something like you should, you know, anti-hunters should hate meat hunting way more than they hate trophy hunting. Right. Cause there's more lives, animal lives being lost to meat hunting than to trophy hunting. Because trophy hunting is more selective, right? Yep. Yep. Um, you know, it's like, oh, meat hunters, they have a better connection to nature. I'm like, no, usually I'm out in the woods longer.

If I'm, if I'm after, so my connection to nature is better. Yeah. I feel like I'm more in tune. Like I've got to think more like I can go to, gosh, I'm just not meant to sound that way. I'm not saying I'm that good, but like I can go to most places and kill something that's legal very quickly. Right. I've got to be dialed in. Like, where's the most mature animal on the mountain going to live? Or like, where's a nook and cranny? Like it's sometimes a harder place to get to. Not always, but like, I'm having to think more versus like,

So in my opinion, that's building a deeper appreciation for the wildlife and what it takes to get to that age and maturity. And they've got an ability to think different. So I don't understand how a meat hunter, you know, the argument, oh, they're, they're really connected to nature or they've got a more appreciation for the wildlife they're hunting. Like, no, I don't buy it. Like it can be equivalent, but not, not more.

Yeah. And I think it's just pure and simple that it's a lot harder to demonize someone who is hunting for sustenance, you know? And I think the last, I don't know, five years or better, I'm like, there's a lot of, I think a lot of more people who are more enlightened and like less against hunting now, uh,

Now that the kind of the, everybody's all the, the, the meat industry and everything, they'll have the whistle blown on them, right? Everybody's starting to see all the crap they put in our food. They're poisoning us with all this stuff. That's a completely different rabbit hole. But I think a lot of people are, are awakening to the fact that like the stuff you buy at the store isn't maybe necessarily that healthy. So wild meat, wild game is, is a lot healthier for you. And the conditions that livestock, uh,

are held in, you know, feed yards, all these different places. It's not the, it's not a pretty picture. It's not a, it's not a great picture. Whereas a deer or elk, they lived a beautiful free life their whole life. And finally one day, uh,

a hunter took their life, put them down humanely. They didn't get eaten to death while they're eaten alive by coyotes, wolves, bears, cougars, whatever. They didn't get killed in a brutal fashion by nature per se.

Um, they're taken down, uh, by a hunter, but as humans, we are part of nature. We've been part of nature since the dawn of time. So to, to take, to say that it's not natural for a hunter to kill an animal is, is,

hogwash. It's preposterous. Um, you know, we, we've been here since the animals have been here. Yep. And so it is natural. It is a natural thing for us to kill, to kill an animal. Um, but back to your point. Yeah. It's just easier to demonize, you know, it, you can make trophy hunting look bad and, and poo poo on that way easier than you can just someone sustenance hunting.

Yeah, it's a tricky subject. I feel like those that hunt, whether for me or trophy hunting, understand it very clearly. It's not that different. I feel like the shade has been cast from outside the arena.

and we're kind of left to deal with it but I do kind of go back to my point I feel like as hunters we need to do a better job of explaining why we do exactly what we do and you know to kind of kind of wrap this thing up it was just kind of a conversation on trophy hunting and our own opinions but

um we just need to do a better job as hunting you know as hunters as a collective group explaining why we do what we do and back to my opinion and it's the easy way out but as long as the biologists agree that there should be tags you've got a tag for that unit and the animal that you shoot's legal and you're not wasting anything like who am i to say what you should be doing while you're out there if you want to shoot a spike that's a you know a year and a half old or a

the button buck, cause that's what you want to do, or you need to meet by all means, do it. Um, if you want to go out there and never shoot, you know, you, you could have killed hundreds of animals and you, you shoot one every 10 years. Cause you only want the biggest thing ever to put on your wall. As long as you're taking the meat home by all means, do it. Um, but I, I, I always kind of joke these meat hunters. I would love to be there with a meat hunter and set a big old, you know, four point, a giant four point buck alongside of a spike and

And see which one they shoot. And I would even take it as far as put a giant four point buck next to a spike bowl, maybe a little more meat on the spike bowl and still see which one they shoot. Um, we're all meat hunters, quote unquote meat hunters until something bigs around. Um, I think there's a very few, very few guys that they are gals or hunters in general. They were like, yeah,

I'll take the less, the less mature or the less impressive animal. Um, you can talk a big game until you're in the situation that everybody turns into a trophy hunter. Right. Right. I mean, that, that would probably be true in most cases. I will say my dad would tell me every time I'd leave the house to go hunting when I was a kid, he'd be like, Hey, now don't be shooting on them big stinky bucks or big stinky bulls. Try to get a nice dry dough or a nice dry cow. If you can. Yeah.

He would tell me that every time. And when I'd come home with a bull or a buck, he's just like, ah, what'd you kill this thing for? Oh, this thing's been rutting. It stinks. You know, the hair, the fur stinks or whatever. Yeah. Yeah. No, it's, it's a tricky subject. I just, uh, like I say, there's,

Trophy hunting, in my opinion, just meat hunting for a little more meat and a little better horns is all. That's the only difference. Demonized by the outside. Anything you have to add, Dirk, or anything we need to close off with? I know Christmas is right around the corner.

I'll let you do your spill. You have a better like ads marketing voice. Did I need to use my announcer, radio announcer voice? Oh, you can use whatever voice you want. I don't want to steal your thunder here at the end. No, no. No, yeah. With Christmas around the corner, you know, don't forget your favorite elk hunter or deer hunter. We do have stocking stuffers at philipsgamecalls.com.

Um, don't want to be a big pushy salesman here, but, um, yeah, yeah. Think of your, your favorite hunter and, and we've got some cool stuff that doesn't break the bank and can fill a stocking or, or, uh, you know, maybe they want that beautiful bugle tube that, you know, that's their main present. I mean, yeah.

I would kill for one of those when I was, you know, when I was a kid, you know, somebody bought me a bugle tube. So, so if you were a meat hunter or what elk call would you get? And if you're a trophy hunter, what elk call do you get? I should have answered that. Well, I'm just going to be honest. If, if you just want to take home, if you want to be a tag notcher, you just need to get a Maverick. If you want to be a trophy hunter.

Then you get the pink. No, you get that. No, you get the Maverick. You still get the Maverick. I mean, the Maverick will do everything. I mean, your dog ran off, get a Maverick. Wife left you Maverick. It's getting deep. Maverick. If you're listening right now and you're in a safe spot, you should start rolling up your pants. Cause it's getting deep. Oh, good. All right. Well, thanks for jumping on there. It was like I say, it was just something that popped up. I wanted to switch a little bit from tips and tactics and, uh,

Yeah. Just go out there and hunt because you love it. You know, hunt because you want to fill the freezer with, with organic meat. That's not, you know, add hormones, injected it, whatever it is, just go out and hunt because you love it. Whether it's family and friends, whether it's telling stories, whether it's drinks around the campfire, whether it's whatever it is, um, go out there and do it as long as it's legal. And, uh, don't worry about what anybody else, you know, questions your reasoning for doing it. Um,

But, but have self-awareness to, to know that if you're going to put that stuff out there, if you're going to put, share your pictures, your success photos and, or your hunting trip photos, um, always give context, you know, say, don't just say, ah, give this buck.

got her done, you know, um, tell, tell about it. Why? What, you know, expand on it. This isn't just a bang, bang, shoot them up thing, you know, expand. Why, why do you kill that? Why do you enjoy the hunt? Why you enjoyed your friends? Um, you,

Yeah. I mean, you have to, you have to, you know, yeah, we shouldn't have to answer to anyone. Absolutely. I agree with that. And I take, I take offense by trying to like have to appease all these, you know, anti-hunting people. I'm not really trying to appease any anti-hunting. Those people are already gone. There are no convincing them that hunting is good.

But people who are watching silently, quietly, who are on the fence, who don't hunt. And if you paint a really nice picture, it's like, yeah, I like that. You know, camaraderie, family, friends, you know, found a, you know, you know, wanted to spend a full season hunting, trying to find a mature animal, not just to kill indiscriminately, whatever. I mean, if you can paint a great picture,

It just leaves a better taste in people's mouth. It just does. Yeah. And, uh, we're, you brought up another point. We're trying to wrap this up and we just keep going. Um, we're not the judge and jury, but I'd also urge people that there's some stuff left that's left to be on your phone and not meant for social media. Like there, like Dirk said, he's not trying to appease anybody, but there are things that can do harm. Um, keep it on your phone, share it with friends and family, even if you want to share it, like some stuff.

There's just stuff I'm not proud of that happens like life or death out there. It's real. It affects me. Like just, we don't have to show it. Right. You don't have to share that with the world. Um, yeah, there's just something, you know, and I feel like, you know, just have a little decency, have a little respect for the animal, have a respect for the people who let's just say, you know, I've spent a lifetime hunting.

And I grew up in a household with a different mindset versus people who've never been hunting. And if they see something that's like maybe commonplace, like a gratuitous headshot of an animal or, or something else that is beyond disturbing for them because they're not used to seeing an animal die. They're not used to seeing someone take a life. Um,

And what might be kind of commonplace or like desensitized to us because we've been there, done that, whatever. It doesn't mean we should maybe share it with the world. Yep. Those, those, and I've seen some, and I've been around, I've been around, I've shot a lot of animals and I've seen some videos where people like, you know, like some gratuitous headshot of an animal.

It's disgusting. I don't want to, I don't want to see that. I don't, I don't, I can guarantee you nobody else wants to see that. Um, it's, it ain't cool. Yeah. If you, if you want to show us how good of a shot you are, go shoot a paper target and share that. Like is it Hunter?

you you can give somebody a fist bump like great shot but we leave it at that like that stays in the woods the the mess is there you nobody needs to see it nobody and as a hunter that you know you know just like you dealt with a lot of life and death and and and you know you wanted to be quick and ethical like just just leave it off there i know we're going down a different rabbit hole but um god i think sometimes we're our worst our own worst enemies like clean ethical and

you know, limit it to the, the, I don't even, I'm to the point, maybe I'm getting softer. Like I was watching, I was sick the other day and I was watching a lot of white tail hunting on TV. Yeah. Some people edit out, they'll show you the shot and then they'll like show you the animal dead across the field. And then some people will show you like the deer running all over spinning or like staggering for minutes with blood. I'm like, I don't want to see that either. Yeah. Like I just disturbing for a lot of people. I don't like that. I don't like that moment of time between the shot hitting it.

And the animal being like fully, fully expired. Like, I don't like that timeline at all. I don't like anything about it. I don't, I don't like watching it myself. I don't like to sit, I don't like to sit there and watch the animal, you know, slowly let life slip from its eyes or, you know, from its body, like in the blood or whatever. I don't, I don't take joy in seeing that. I don't, I don't, I don't watch that. It's, it is disturbing. Even as a hunter, I've killed lots of animals and I don't take any kind of joy in seeing that. Yeah. Yeah. Um,

Yeah. So there's our public service announcement for everybody. Let's, let's go back to the trophy hunting thing. They will lump that right in with trophy hunters. They will take those examples. They look at what this trophy hunter did. Yeah. Um, yeah. And it just gives a, gives us a bad name, a bad, bad look. Yeah. Well, thank you everybody for tuning in to cutting the distance. Um, thanks guys.

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