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cover of episode Ep. 68: Hunting Fitness from the Aging Hunter, Bob Terwilliger

Ep. 68: Hunting Fitness from the Aging Hunter, Bob Terwilliger

2024/1/18
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Cutting The Distance

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Bob Terwilliger:保持全年健身对于年长猎人来说至关重要,这不仅可以提高狩猎体验,还能帮助应对狩猎的体力挑战和术后恢复。他分享了自己的健身计划,包括每周四到五天的力量训练,以及负重徒步、划船机等高强度间歇训练,并强调了避免过度训练和选择适合自身年龄和身体状况的运动方式的重要性。他还强调了均衡饮食、控制卡路里摄入和适量饮酒的重要性,建议进行全身训练,采用较轻重量、较高次数的循环训练方式,并关注核心肌群、背部和腿部力量的锻炼。在狩猎中,他建议使用杠杆点和辅助工具,例如降落伞绳,来减轻体力负担。 Dirk Durham:认同Bob Terwilliger的观点,并补充说明了保持体能对于狩猎的重要性,以及在狩猎中保持冷静和专注的重要性。他分享了自己在狩猎中的经验,以及如何根据猎物的行为和自身情况做出调整。 Dirk Durham:与Bob Terwilliger讨论了狩猎健身的重要性,并分享了自己在狩猎中遇到的挑战和经验。他强调了保持体能对于狩猎体验的积极影响,并询问了Bob Terwilliger的健身计划和饮食习惯。他与Bob Terwilliger探讨了不同类型的训练方法,例如负重徒步、高强度间歇训练以及力量训练,并讨论了如何根据自身情况选择合适的训练方式。

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Bob Terwilliger discusses his transition from corporate life to becoming a backcountry guide, focusing on his passion for elk hunting and the opportunities that led to his guiding career.

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Welcome to another episode of Cutting the Distance Podcast. I'm Dirk Durham, and today I have my good friend Bob Toilliger. Happy New Year, Bob. Yeah, happy New Year to you too, Dirk. Bob is someone I really admire. He's been doing the backcountry guiding thing for years, and he's

He's just stayed active, you know, through his younger days. And now in these retirement years, he's still out there getting after it. And I thought, you know, with everyone's New Year's resolutions at the front of our mind right now, I thought, you know, everybody's wanting to try to get back into shape or get going back on their workout program or their diet. And I thought, you know, who better? ♪

There's a lot of information out there for all these young Thundercats out there, you know. But, you know, us guys that are aging a little bit, you know, that's a different animal altogether, I think. So I thought, who better than to get on here than Bob Twilliger? You've kind of seen the best of things when it comes to fitness and had some setbacks from surgeries and whatnot. And I just kind of thought I'd pick your brain. And I think our listeners would really like to hear what you have to say.

But first, Bob, tell us about your backstory. How did you get into backcountry guiding? Where did it all start? So I actually moved to Colorado 30 years ago. It was work related. I worked for IBM for 36 years. And as time went on in IBM, I started thinking about life after IBM, particularly as corporate America started looking at

moving work offshore and stuff like that, seeing some buddies leave the company. And I just said, you know, I need to be thinking about what's next and had this passion for elk hunting, which I certainly got into hot and heavy when I moved here. And as time went on, you know, I had some success on my own. And then, um,

Lo and behold, an opportunity came in my way to guide through a guy that actually was a head packer for a group called Winterhawk Outfitters I'd run into on the trail packing my elk out. And he said, you need to come down and work for us. And I thought about that and I said, you know what? What a better way to spend my life moving on from corporate America and use my outdoor skills and my people skills I developed in IBM.

to get involved in guiding. So this will actually be my 16th year guiding. I don't guide elk hunts full time anymore, although I did for nine years. I started when I was 51. You know, and in those nine years of guiding elk hunts, I was out there seven weeks every fall going at it hot and heavy. So

Um, you know, later in life, as opposed to some guys do it early, I was able to do it later, but certainly some of the stuff we're going to talk about tonight with fitness will play right into that. So, you know, today I still guide, I guide, try to guide a couple of weeks a year, you know, uh,

elk hunting. I do guide a fair amount of fly fishing yet. And then the remainder, I'm still in the back country four or five weeks a year between a couple of weeks guiding and then hunting with my son and hunting with other friends and for myself, you know, so I still get after it pretty good. Yeah. Awesome.

So I've kind of said before, you know, a person doesn't have to be an elite athlete to enjoy elk hunting, but I will say you will enjoy elk hunting more the better shape you're in. If you've got a few extra pounds, you know, you read a lot of internet forum stuff or a lot of stuff on Facebook, you know, guys are trying to, you know, be minimalists on their backpack, you know, they're saving ounces here, there, they're cutting their toothbrush handles off. They're doing anything they can to save a little bit of weight on their backpack. Yet,

A lot of us carry around several extra pounds in the backcountry every fall. And I feel like, you know, if we tried as hard, you know, reducing our body weight as much as we did our pack weight, man, we'd really be kicking some butt. But anyway, how important do you think it is to stay fit?

have a maintain a pretty good level of fitness year round versus doing the old up and down thing. I'm kind of guilty of the old up and down thing. I, as soon as hunting season, uh, closes off, I kind of, um, I kind of go into hibernation mode and try to catch up on stuff at home and a lot of video editing and a lot of work stuff. And I don't get out in, I'm not as active as I normally am. How important do you think it is to stay, stay pretty, pretty fit year round?

I think it's real important. And I've been actually been fortunate that it's come easy to me. I've been hooked on it. You know, I played three sports in high school and two in college and, you know, actually use weight training as a means to wean myself off competitive sports.

And but a key ingredient in that, too, even when I was younger, was it helped me manage stress both in the job and at home. You know, and then, of course, how that all translates to elk hunting. We all know that when you're getting out there and getting after it. I mean, I tell people it is a physical test like no other.

And, you know, if the hiking and getting up early and the altitude doesn't get to you, wait till you get an animal on the ground and have to wrestle with that and get the meat out, you know, and then still get your camp out. It's a lot of work.

So, certainly I'm a big advocate of keeping in shape and trying to do that year round. That doesn't mean that I don't take some breaks and let my body rest. That becomes more important with aging. The other thing, of course, that becomes more important with aging is that if you don't use your body regularly,

There's an old saying, if you don't use it, you lose it. And what I'll tell you is, is that as you get older, if you don't keep after it, you don't keep after it. You're going to you can get to a point where you might never get it back.

And I've been really fortunate, like you pointed out, Dirk, just to provide some example. I'm 67 and a half. In the last three years, I've had four major surgeries. I've had, you know, over time, I've had both hips replaced, had both shoulders worked on. And then last year, probably the most serious, I had a three-level cervical neck fusion to fix some stenosis in my neck where I lost strength in my left arm, and I am a lefty. And the good news is all that went good.

I followed my doctor's orders in my rehab and my recovery. But more important than ever, you know, when I got beyond that point, I stayed in the gym and I stayed with the fitness aspect.

And, you know, I had my surgery last March and lo and behold, this October, I was packing my elk out on my back, you know, seven miles in the back country. So it's all doable. It's just a matter of prioritizing the exercise to a point where it really is a part of your life. And it's your ability to preserve your quality of life as you get older. Great. Yeah.

How often are you hitting the gym? Are you going every single day? Are you carving out just a, like a schedule throughout the week? How are you able to, to, to do this and get in that gym as much as you'd like to?

You know, that's an excellent question because particularly for younger guys with families or, you know, just the wear and tear of work, it can make it quite challenging and then trying to have a home life too. But for me now, at my point, and what I've always tried to strive for is that I get in there to train four or five days a week, you know, depending on how my body's feeling, that's something we'll talk about is that ensuring you don't overdo it. You know, the idea is to get yourself in shape, not wear your body out like,

I've pretty much done a good job of that, but good news is they've rebuilt me and I'm still going. But I try to get in four or five days a week, you know, weight training. And, you know, I try to make sure I at least take one to two days off a week. And within there, I do some, I do some cardio stuff too, but believe it or not, I don't do as much cardio as some people might think. And that's partly due to the way that I work out. I work out at a fast pace. I

I do, you know, a lot of different exercises, you know, where I superset and do one thing and then go do something else where I'm not sitting around like a power lifter would resting, you know. So I get my heart rate up in other ways. And then I still, you know, I do a little bit of cardio, but more the high intensity cardio, you know, versus the long range endurance cardio, because that can have a tendency to actually break your body down and lose muscle too.

So, you're saying you do like probably lower weight, higher reps, and maybe like circuit training type stuff? Yes. Yep. That's exactly what I do. I focus on the total body workout. I tend, at my age now, I mean, I used to, when I was younger, I worked each muscle group twice a week. So, if I worked arms or legs, I did that. I had a routine I did twice a week. As I've gotten older, I do each muscle group one day a week.

And what I like about that is it enables me to focus on some of the smaller stuff, typically like in the shoulders, like your rotator cuff, rear delts, side delts, that kind of stuff, not just the stuff that looks good in the mirror from the front.

You know, and then by working each muscle group hard one day a week, you know, I'm getting, you know, a full complete workout on that muscle group. But I give myself a week to recover before I hit it again. So, you know, I'm very, very conscious that I don't want to overtrain because that's how you develop inflammation. That's how you develop injuries. And, you know, again, with aging, that's something you really need to be focused on. And even when you're younger, you know, because you go at it hard, sometimes you just need to back off.

Let your body recuperate. That's key to really key to getting stronger is allowing your muscles to recover. Well, I've seen some pictures of you back when you were a young buck and pretty impressive. You're pretty impressive. You've kind of a specimen. And I've seen some pictures of you these days and you're still kind of a specimen. So I think it's working, whatever you're doing. It sounds like now you see a lot of guys, right?

doing like you kind of alluded to a little bit earlier, some of the power lifting stuff, doing a lot of like cleans and just like really heavy things. Um, do you, do you, I almost take, I feel like you have the take on it. Like, man, maybe that isn't as beneficial because you could really hurt yourself. Absolutely. Yeah, absolutely. And probably the one thing I should have said in the beginning, I'll say is that, uh,

I've had some really good help over the years. Probably number one is my son, because I'm not a certified nutrition. I'm not a certified trainer, but I've been doing, I've been working out a long time with my athletics. And my son actually has a degree in high performance sports training and kinesiology. So a lot of the information that I'll talk about here, you know, is courtesy of him, but you're right. Some of those exercises and the real heavy weight, um,

you know, you put yourself at risk. And, you know, one of the things that I like to say to younger guys is that particularly because there's, we're all younger. I did it. You're trying to do really super Superman heavyweight. Um, you know, a lot of times you can do it. Um, and you think you're getting away with it, but things that you think you're getting away with later in life have a way of showing up. Um, so you need to, you really need to keep that in mind. Um,

You know, and, you know, the other thing I'll say is it relates to exercises. As you get older, some of the more things that you did when you were younger that I would call higher risk exercises, you need to find other ways to work those muscles in a means that's lower risk. So, for example, a great example of that is that one thing that God has always blessed me with is good legs, which plays real key into elk hunting.

I used to do a lot of squats. I could do heavy squats, you know, traditional barbell squats. I don't do those anymore. My body's not going to take that. What I do do is I'm fortunate the gym I belong to, they have a machine called the Rogue Belt Squat. So the belt actually goes around your waist and you're really pulling with your waist and you get the leg strength training benefits that you get from squats.

But doing it in a means that's a lot lower risk. Another one I would talk about is deadlifts, you know, deadlifts. A lot of guys can deadlift a lot of weight. Well, as you get older, you know, and particularly try to crank that weight up, you can easily strain your back. You know, there's other ways and machines that you can use to

to do some of the same stuff. Cleans is probably another great one. You know, if you're going to do cleans as you get older, stay light because that body, that heavyweight jar and you, you know, it will, it will compress your joints and sooner or later it's going to show up and it's going to impact your ability to do what you want to do. So kind of give us some, so you said you don't focus too much on cardio. Do you ever do, do you ever do any rucking? What do you think about rucking, you know, to get in shape for, for elk hunting?

I'm not sure what you mean by that. So, throwing a backpack on with a certain amount of weight, maybe 40 pounds in your pack, 60 pounds in your bag. I do a lot of that. That was one of the things I like to do is that typically is, you know, and sometimes here in Colorado, we get off and on, we get...

breaks in the weather all winter. So I will throw a backpack on, maybe 20, 25, 30 pounds, and I'll go on like a three or four mile hike, you know, up and back and push it. You know, I'm not out there trying to do seven, eight, 10 miles. You know, I don't need to do that because all I'm going to do is wear myself down. I want to try to, I want to try to build myself up so that elk season comes around in September. I'm just hitting my peak. So then I can really get after it. I don't want to be worn out when September comes. I want to be ready to go.

But no, that's a good one. One of the other ones that I like to do where I can get my heart rate up and I keep the weight light so I can really, you know, almost sprint when I'm doing it. But I do a lot of sled pulls, you know, both up and back. It works on power in your legs, but it also it gets your heart rate up good. You know, if you've got a buddy and you just kind of alternate back and forth and you've got a decent place in your gym or somewhere to do that.

You'd be surprised, you get your heart rate up really good just doing stuff like that. Rowing machines are probably one I like to do if I'm indoors as well because it's total body and I find I can get my heart rate up really quick with that as opposed to some of the stationary bikes. I mean, these new bikes, you know, where you're using your upper body and lower body, they're more intense. My problem with those, for an older guy like myself, you know, the resistance is stiff enough that, you know,

You know, if I do too much of that, it can get my knees aggravated. So I try to stay away from that. Right on. You ever do like the stair climbers? I know Jason Phelps is a huge, that's his kind of go-to cardio workout. He's got a stair climber and he'll send me pictures of him just drenched in sweat. You know, he'll do it on his lunch break or whatever. And he'll climb a thousand feet or whatever on a lunch break. They're awesome. In fact, I'm going to tell you that.

When I was younger, I was a much bigger guy. Now I go about 190 pounds and back to my high school weight. And that's because we just can't maintain the muscle mass. But I was almost 220 when I was in my 30s and 40s and I was every bit as lean. And I was addicted to running 10Ks. And the way I used to train for 10Ks was not running on the road, was using that stair climber.

Oh, wow. Yeah. And I ran a 39, 15, 10 K in the Boulder Boulder when I was like 39 years old at 220 pounds. So the stair climbers, they definitely work. Definitely. Yeah, definitely. I've noticed that, that rucking or, you know, throwing a backpack on and especially if it's heavy, man, it sure, if you can do that before season, definitely leading up to season, it, it sure is challenging.

toughens up your shoulders. Cause I know on, on yours, I haven't done that. And the first few days of the hunt, man, my shoulders are getting tired. You know, you're putting on a lot of miles every day and you're, you're, you're not used to carrying a backpack, especially one with, you know, with all my gear. And I, I imagine I'd have to weigh it, but I bet it's at least 20 pounds with all my gear, uh, with the water and food and everything included. And, uh, like the first couple of days, man, uh,

shoulders like, man, they're getting kind of tired. But I felt like if I've, you know, the month or two leading up to elk season, if I've been active with a pack, with a backpack, you know, carrying heavy loads, um, you know, I'll do a lot of, uh, I I'll put out,

trail cameras and I'll put some salt out just to draw an animal there to get to see what there is on a camera and in some pretty nasty country and through the summer. And I really love that. And, and it's a, it's a, it's a great workout that I really enjoy to do. But it sure, it'll sure tell you where you're lacking, you know, endurance, the ability to carry a heavy load, you know, bag of salt, 60 pounds or whatever, plus all your gear.

Um, you know, on some pretty uneven terrain, you know, it's almost like the same places you would normally would, would traverse during an elk, an elk season. So it really gets you into, into shape and.

You know, wherever it's legal, I mean, that's a pretty great workout, but some states, they kind of frown upon that. But anyway, I'll set out some trail cameras and sometimes I'll get some stuff on there and sometimes I won't get anything. But it's still fun. It's like Christmas Day every time you open up that trail camera. No, I do the same. And one comment I would make there is because, you know, not all guys are as fortunate as we are to live in a mountainous area.

So it can be harder to train. And, you know, there's no reason, though, you can't put a weighted backpack and get on that stair climber.

I see a lot of guys doing that, you know, and that's a great way to train for those that don't live here. I also try to do, you know, at least two backpacking trips during the summer with my son where it's kind of combo where I'm doing some fly backcountry fly fishing, but also doing some scouting. Maybe if I'm in a new area, you know, and again, we got we got that heavy pack on and you're in the terrain that you're going to be in the fall.

You know, I also use that as an opportunity sometimes not only to scout, but just to go out there with on X and try to find some easy way in and outs to some of the areas that I want to hunt if I'm hunting newer country. So, yeah, absolutely. Yeah, I love that summertime scouting stuff. You know, some folks, you know, they're like, you know, I just don't, you know, who live in elk country, they're just...

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What are some other things you can think of that, that, uh, that you had written down there that, that would kind of help our listeners, uh, get in shape, stay in shape. What about, um, like diet? Are you just like chugging beers all the time and, and wine and whiskey and, you know, just loving it up, eating cheeseburgers? What, what do you do? What are you doing for your diet? They say you can't outwork a bad diet. Um, how do you feel about that? Yeah. I mean, you know, that's a, that's a great point, you know, and, um,

You know, I'll put it in context here that one of the discussions I like to have on this subject is that, you know, particularly for you guys that are younger, you can get away with a whole lot when you're young.

You can get away with eating a whole lot of stuff that you, as you get later years, you're not going to be able to eat unless you want to weigh 300 pounds. You can get away with drinking more. You can get away with even getting away from exercise. But as you get older, those things will all work against you if you do them. And of course, drinking is one of them that I like to talk about. I mean, I like to have, I'm not, I've never been a beer guy, but I know a lot of what I call these new high test drinks.

a bruise or a micro bruise, you know, these IPAs that a lot of younger folks are drinking, you know, they're fine in moderation, but if you go out and you really tear into those, you got to realize that, you know, in a 16-ounce pint, you're probably talking about 350 calories a pop or more, depending on the potency of that beer. I tend to more take a little nip of whiskey or two, you know, I enjoy that, particularly in the backcountry because it's not a lot of weight,

Um, the other thing that you'll find as you get older, if you want to get up and hunt the next morning, um, you don't want to be drinking a lot of beer before you go to bed because you're going to spend all night going to the bathroom. And that's another, that's another subject for another day. But, uh, yeah, certainly alcohol is one diets. Another one. I mean, I'm going to tell you, I eat well, but I try to eat balanced. I try to make sure I take in enough protein.

That can be really hard to do. There are some magic numbers around protein, depending on how you talk to. They talk about 1.5 grams of protein for every kilogram of body fat. So I'm 190 pounds. That's roughly 86 kilograms. That says I should be taking in 130 grams of protein a day if I'm working out hard.

That's easier said than done. You got to really focus on what I'm taking into your body, you know, and you do got to eat, you know, but what you don't want to do is you don't want to be eating a bunch of fried foods. If you got a sweet tooth, that's going to work against you. Those are just empty calories that are going to,

you know, work against you in the long haul. You know, the one thing I will say though, um, particularly as you establish the habit and you get that working out on a schedule that works for you and a routine that works for you, is that part of the fun of exercising is you can eat what you want now and then. And I strongly encourage cheat days. Or when you go on vacation, you know, you're going to splurge a little bit. I mean, that's, that's called living. Um,

But, you know, the bulk of the year, I try to keep it between the boundaries. You know, I make sure I take in enough food, but I'm not overdoing it. And I do, you know, I do. I don't worry too much for me. I have a high metabolism. And sometimes if I put on a little bit more weight during the winter, I know I'm going to burn it off when I get up there and start hiking at elevation. But.

Some guys that's that's not an option. So you're going to need to really tune into the calories you take in and make sure you're taking in the right calories, not stuff that's just going to put extra pounds on your midsection. Yeah. Yeah. Good point.

I'd like to take a moment here to remind everybody, if you have any questions for me or Jason Phelps or a guest, email ctd at phelpsgamecalls.com. And we'll read your question on air and see if we can get anybody to answer them for you. I don't have any of those today. Jason, he's been kind of clearing out that bucket of questions. So that's been good.

So other, other aspects of the hunt, you know, I've, I feel like there's a lot of people doing a lot of big lift, like heavy weight lifts. What you're telling me makes more sense because you're kind of doing a complete body workout. Um, you're built, you're kind of building stamina, you're building some strength, but you're not overdoing it. You know, um, some of those exercises I see people doing, they're pretty risky. Like let's say a whole bunch of those pull-ups or maybe those weird pull-ups that the CrossFitters do. Those just, man, they make my shoulders hurt.

um, freak out. Right. Um, so how I feel like pull-ups probably, I mean, they're a pretty good workout for a lot of muscle groups, but, and I just try to picture in the back country, what, what I'm doing every day in the back country and what kind of exercises I'm going to need to, to get me to the elk. Once I get the elk killed, get the elk worked up, um, hung up and then extracted from the woods. Um,

do you have any tips, you know, for, for some of those, um, for, you know, once you get your elk down or, or maybe some of those, maybe some little key workouts that you've really seen that really benefited some of the, some of the things that, that you actually have to do when you're elk hunting. Like there's like, you know, you got this little secret exercise you really like that you've, you've seen some difference. It moves the needle for you, um, doing elk hunting things.

Yeah, sure. Yeah. I mean, first of all, I'll say that for elk hunting, you know, strong core, strong back, strong core, strong back, strong legs is absolutely essential. I mean, you got to really work on that. So you need some leg strength, you know, and certainly stuff like squats, lunges, leg press, glute raises. That's another one that glutes is, you know,

Gals work on glutes a lot, right? But a lot of guys, you don't see guys work on their glutes, particularly younger guys in the gym. And what I can tell you is where I learned about glutes is when I had my hips replaced. You know, I got after, you know, I got going again pretty quick after that. I tried to guide full time that fall. And lo and behold, my knees started out.

but I never had much trouble with my knees, thank goodness. And what I really learned from that is that I didn't work my glutes and from those hip replacements, my glutes got really weak. But glutes are where you get your power going uphill. Glutes are where you're going to be able to carry those heavy loads. So that's one area I would definitely hone in on. And there's a lot of great, you know, leg strength exercises. What's really key, because we're all built symmetrically different,

Certain machines might work well for me, but maybe not for a guy that's shorter and thicker than me and vice versa. So you got to explore and get some help on those things, you know, to find out what's going to work for you. But you really like strength and that core strength is important. Upper body strength, of course, is important. You know, you're shooting a bow. You know, you really want to work on your shoulders and your back muscles, right?

You know, and you know, you're going to need to be strong up top too. You get a milk on the ground, you got to skin this thing by yourself. It's not easy, you know, and I can, about the last three I've done, unfortunately I've done by myself. And it's not like when I was younger and I could just throw these things around. Not that I was throwing them around like a whitetail, but I could move them around pretty good. And now it's a lot more challenging. So I got stuff like extra paracouture,

parachute cord in my pack and I'm tying off legs or if I got to roll one over and he's, you know, I got to roll him uphill because of the way he died to skin the other side. At least I can get a rope on each leg front and rear and tie it to the tree uphill and kind of get him halfway up the hill and then get underneath it. So it's little stuff like that that is really going to be important to being able to deal with it, you know, as you get older and even for younger guys, you know, if you're not as big and strong as some of the other guys out there, you

Yeah, using those leverage points. And I've worked up a lot of elk by myself and parachute cord, man, that's really saved the day in certain circumstances. Steep on super steep ground, for instance. Yeah.

tying off that, that elk's head and to keep it from sliding down the hill any further. But once I got that thing anchored, it's pretty good. It seemed like it was really steep ground. It seems like I could maneuver the bull, you know, back and forth, side to side pretty well, but you know, making sure you do that before you get to rolling the thing around too much and you save yourself a,

a lot of work, that thing starts tumbling down the hill and gets wedged between a blow down and the ground. And now you've got your work cut out for you. Yeah, no doubt. No doubt. The other thing I do too for packing them out is that, you know, I didn't used to worry about this. I mean, there are times I put two hind quarters on my frame pack and packed it out, bone in. As I've gotten older,

Um, you know, I bone everything out, you know, and that's one thing I'd encourage guys, particularly if you're way back in or an older hunter, um, you know, there's lots of great videos out there on YouTube on how to, you know, bone out a quarter, including the front shoulder and one nice piece. So you can roll it up and keep all the clean meat against clean meat, use good quality game bags. And you're getting rid of a lot of weight that way, you know, and, uh, it also makes it easier to get it in your cooler and get it chilled down too, without that

you know, depending on where you are and what you're doing and what your packing abilities are. Right. There seems to be a lot of information or ideas on the internet of how much, how much meat does a guy actually pack out of the back country? Because, you know, there's, there's all these different takes on, oh, it's a 1200 pound animal and a bull elk is a 1200 pound animal or it's an 800 pound animal.

Um, you know, and then people try to figure out the, the waste difference between, you know, guts, hide and feathers, uh, versus meat. They're actually going to pack out, but kind of what I've, I've found, um, and I'll let you weigh in on this too, is, um, so if, if you do the gutless method and you leave the bones in the, in the front shoulder and the hind quarter cut off at the knee, um, no hide on it.

On an app, and this is, these are Idaho measurements. So, an average Idaho five-point or a big Idaho five-point average, smaller six-point, you're going to look at about a 65-pound hindquarter and about a 45-pound front shoulder.

Yep. And then with all the neck meat, rib meat and the back straps, your total weight, you're going to be anywhere from 200 to 250 pounds. Would that kind of jive with what you've seen over the years? Yeah, absolutely. And, you know, I did shoot a nice six by here in Colorado, I guess it was a couple of years ago now.

And we boned it out and we weighed all the meat because we ended up, you know, we had a packet to where my remote camp was. And then I've got a couple of mules so that my buddy brought them in and we threw the meat on the mules. But we weighed all the meat and it was 225 pounds of meat. So sometimes it can be bigger yet. You know, you shoot a good one.

Yeah. Just, but yeah, I'd say your, your numbers are right on it. 60, 65 pounds is about average for a hind quarter and front quarter, you know, depending on if you've got the neck meat and the flank meat all attached to one piece or one, 45 pounds is definitely in the ballpark. Right. And then I think a lot of people kind of get caught up in like, man,

you got to pack all this meat out, you know, right away before it gets spoiled. I don't know if I can do it. And, you know, cause they start thinking about that 250 pounds or maybe, maybe they've heard other people say, you know, you're going to have three or 400 pounds of meat to pack out, which, um,

Maybe on a giant, like the biggest bull in the world. I don't know. You have to look at like what a big Shire's moose weighs here in the lower 48. You get too much, you get to inflate and the number is too much and you're looking at how much a moose weighs, right? Of how much meat a moose is going to have on it. But honestly, I think...

it's very doable. Like let's say you had that 65 pound behind quarter. You, you cut out all the bones. You've probably dropped, what would you say? 15 pounds of bone out of that thing? Oh yeah. Easy, easy. Yep. Yeah. So, so you subtract that out. Now you're getting down into a pretty manageable load. And like you said, um,

you know, you've packed out a lot of two quarters at once. I've done that too. And it, it's, it's a lot, it's a lot of weight, but this isn't like a, this isn't a race, like a speed race. This is a marathon. You gotta have to, you have to finish this race. I always tell people you gotta finish this race. So don't try to overdo it. You know, have your temporary expectations like, okay, what can I carry comfortably? And,

Where I can go out, make another trip back, go out, make another trip back, go out. You know, maybe that's 40, 50 pounds a load, you know? Right. And,

And during your training sessions, you've been carrying a 40 or 50 pound load out in the summertime. And it's like, well, yeah, I can do that. You know, it's heavy or whatever. And it's a lot when I'm, when I get on the steep stuff, but I can do that. And you're not going to kill yourself. I think some people kind of get, they try to do, do too much. Maybe the first trip they're like, oh, I'm going to really, I don't want to have to pack too many, too many loads here. And maybe they kind of fizzle out on that first load and trip. And then it becomes a really bad experience.

Absolutely. I fully agree. You know, I mean, the other thing it can be too, as you will understand, Dirk, it can be a safety issue too. You know, you're back in there a long ways and if you trip and fall and, you know, you're stepping over low downs and whatever and getting to the trail, you know, it takes you down to where the trailhead is or where you're hunting at it.

You know, I definitely like to use trekking poles. I never did when I was younger. Once in a while, I'd pick up a walking stick, but I felt like I didn't need it because I could just power through it. But

With age, I use trekking poles every time because on steep faces, you get wet, slippery snow, you know, anything like that, you know, it's going to help. And the trekking poles actually help take some weight off your lower body. You know, and then the other thing that helps nowadays too is that these new backpacks carry so much better than those old freighter frame style ones. You know, you talk about digging into your shoulders, those things will kill you and digging into your hips, but

There's so many good backpacks on the market now, and it's a matter of just finding one that fits you right and fits your budget. Even if you buy it used, you don't have to buy new. There's a lot of good stuff out there on eBay or Facebook Marketplace, wherever. You know, you'll find that those are going to help you out quite a bit too.

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You know, I feel like we should have some bonus material here instead of just talking about fitness and stuff. I mean, a lot of people are really like to talk about that, but I really like to talk about elk hunting. So tell us a little bit about guiding elk hunters. What are some things that you can give our listeners that,

Um, maybe that who've never hunted elk before, maybe they've, um, they've wanted to do a, a, a DIY, or maybe they've wanted to do a guided hunt. What are some things that they can, they can do, um, or maybe some expectations that they're going to have when they come to the elk camp, um, that maybe they didn't realize before, before they've ever experienced elk hunting?

Okay. Yeah, sure. One of the biggest things that, you know, although we say we're going to talk about elk hunting, fitness comes right into that. Yeah. You know, if you're not in shape, and I'm not, again, you know, you made the right point, Dirk. You don't have to be a world-class athlete to do this. I'm not saying that at all, but.

There's no doubt about it that the better shape you go in, the better time you're going to have, the more you're going to enjoy your hunt, and you're going to be able to hunt harder. I don't care if that's a do-it-yourself or a guided hunt or a drop camp. You pick it. You go up there and you get up at 10,000 feet. In Colorado, sometimes I'm hunting higher. I'm hunting up 11,000 feet, maybe even a little above. It definitely plays a role. Coming to shape is definitely a key aspect.

Um, I would say that, you know, of course a guided hunt is going to cost you a lot more money, but, um, you know, you need to be, you know, do your homework on what outfitter you go to. But, you know, if you haven't done it before, you haven't hunted much before, all you've ever hunted is white pedals.

you really might want to give a guided hunt some serious thought because it's way different than hunting whitetails, you know, in other parts of the country. You know, we're hunting on the move all the time. We talk about archery. You know, you can cover six, eight, ten miles a day. It's nothing. And, you know, it does require some knowledge about how to hunt these animals, how to call to them and when to call to them. So there's more to it than meets the eye. Rifle hunt, certainly if you go second or third rifle,

and you're doing it, do it yourself, you know, you're going to get out there and try to find animals and then find a place where they're crossing and get a place where you can see and shoot and blast. And, you know, you certainly can have success that way.

But still, you know, it's not easy. I mean, you look at the success rates across these states, and it's definitely a challenge, you know. I mean, I think here in Colorado, the average going rate is about a 20% success rate. If you talk archery, it's like 10%. So it's tough. There is a learning curve. But the thing I'll tell you is once you do it, I don't care if you do it yourself, you do a guided hike, you're done with the hike.

You don't want to come again because it's an experience like no other. And it's just a lot of fun to be out there in the elk woods and see these animals. And maybe that's, uh, maybe that's your why and why to get in shape or stay in shape is, is that your motivation elk hunting? Like once you, once you taste that, that elk hunting for the first time, you're like, like you said, they're hooked. And now, now it's like, okay, I'm going to get in better shape. I'm going to stay, stay in better shape. Um,

So here's one, let's say, let's do calling. So you do a lot of archery elk hunting, whether, whether, whether it's you and your son or with clients, um, when you guys are calling in bulls, do you, do you guys separate? So your caller shooter scenario, um, and how far in between the caller and the shooter do you guys normally set up?

You know, a lot of that can depend on the terrain and where we run into them, as you know. But all things being equal, you know, I like to be I like to be 60, 70 yards behind my shooters, you know, simply because I don't want to be if I can help it. I don't want to be pinned down. I want to be able to move.

Elk don't stay in one spot. I'm snapping limbs. I've even walked in water before, try to sound like animals. So I like to be able to move around. I'll go from one spot to the other, use different cow calls. Maybe, you know, if I get a bull that's hung up, I might, you know, even back off and do a long distant, you know, do a location bugle at first and then move back up.

wait a while, do some estrous cow calls. And when he answers me back, I'll scream over top of him. And I'll tell you more than once I've had him come charging in those circumstances, you know, particularly if they haven't been over hunted, which being honest, that is getting harder to do here in Colorado. But I did have some fun this past fall with that kind of stuff because I

I hunted in one of the units where it's very tough to draw and those elk weren't near as educated. It was like the good old days. So I had to be one with that. But no, I definitely like some distance, but sometimes you can't help it.

Sometimes you get up there and you let a call and I tell my hunters all the time, you know, that you have to be mentally ready 100% of the time because you can be going along and not hear anything. And all of a sudden you just let out a simple faint cow call and all of a sudden here's this bull that's inside 40 or 50 yards in the timber and he's screaming at you and you got to be able to ready to pick a set up and go with it. So.

Have you seen much buck fever kind of overtake hunters? Um, you know, when, when a bull starts coming in and they just watch them walk by instead of drawing their bow and shooting. I have. And I, and I talk about that. You know, I say, once you know that it's an animal that you want to take, you need to be thinking about where you're going to shoot them in terms of the opening. Um,

You know, you need to be thinking about the distance where you're going to hold on that animal and you want to be focused on the spot. You know, you're aiming at that animal and don't be looking at his horns. Don't be thinking about how he's going to look over the mantle of your fireplace because those are all recipes for a miss or maybe to not even get the shot off. So there's a mental checklist that guys really need to go through.

to prepare for those moments. Where do you think about shooting openings, distance, where's gonna be your draw points if you're archering, when that bull steps behind that tree, would be an opportunity for me to draw, getting yourself turned in the right direction before they get too close. All those kinds of factors you need to be thinking about in advance

And I really encourage guys to think about that before they even come on their hunt and think about it when they're out there in the field practicing, because what happens is when you get in the spur of the moment, that bull is screaming, you know, and there's steam coming out of his nose. You know, if you're fortunate enough to run into those, you know, your heart's going to be pounding out of your chest and you want to be able to just,

Where it's muscle memory and you're not having to think through that stuff because you may not even get the shot off. And Lord knows they don't give you much time. It's seconds. It's not a long time in most circumstances, particularly in calling situations. I think that visualizing...

is is very key um in your visualizing success right and you're visualizing big i always tell any of my friends that we're hunting together especially if they're pretty new at hunting i tell them um don't just think this is going to be some raghorn bull that's coming in maybe he has a wimpy wimpy bugle or whatever but um i've i've always kind of like

try to temper my expectations. I think it's going to be a big one. This is going to be a really big bull. How am I going to keep my crap together? Like, okay, I'm going to focus on all the things you just said. That's the same things I focus on. Okay. Where, where, where is that bull going to walk out? Where am I going to draw my bow? Where am I? I'm gonna have to pick a spot, you know, and my whole, before I draw my bow, am I holding my bow right?

Right.

See, it sounds like a lot. And when it works, it seems like, man, that was easy. And when it doesn't work, you feel like I'm never going to kill an elk. One thing I see on folks who, because I watch a lot of YouTube videos. I love elk hunting. I like to watch a lot of other people's hunts. And one thing I see a lot of folks do is they draw their bow way too early.

And I'll be watching the video. I'm like, like the, the first appearance of the bull, like, and he's a ways out, man. They ripped that, they ripped that bow back. And I'm like, no, don't, don't do that. Well, you know, it's interesting. You said that. Cause you, you touched on two things there that, and I preach this to clients all the time. I preach it to my son, you know,

that YouTube is such a great tool for so many things in life, but with elk hunting in particular, watching guys like you, Jason, um, you know, uh, Jermaine Hodge, you know, uh,

And these YouTube videos with guys hunting elk, watching how they handled setups and shooting information, you know, the born and raised guys, you can learn so much about when to move, you know, and really visualize their thought process and

as to when they draw, when they shoot, you know, when they don't shoot. There's so much to be learned just by watching those videos. It's entertaining to watch them because you want to see somebody kill a big bull, but there's a heck of a lot to be learned just by watching it, how other people react to those situations. Yes. When I very first started elk hunting, um, I didn't have my dad, he didn't archery elk hunt. He, he was against it. He's like, Oh, them damn bow hunters. That was his, that was his take on bow hunting. Right. And, um,

I was like, I was telling him, I'm like, I'm, I'm going to shoot a bull elk with a bow. And he's like, you can't, you can't do that. That's like the most unattainable thing. But then I watched these videos and these guys did it, you know, but, and I watched these videos over and over and over back then it was these old VHS videos and they're so terrible quality. But what I, what, one of the big takeaways was I, I watched was elk behavior as bulls came into the setup and,

body language, um, demeanor, their eyes, those kinds of things. Once you start, once you've been in that red zone enough, or you've watched enough videos to watch what bulls are going to do and how they, how they, how they act, are they coming in alert? Are they coming in mad? Like they're, they have their head down. They're, they're not really alert for like, they're not looking for danger. They're, they're coming into fight. You know, what is that bull's demeanor? And, and,

I'm when I have a bull coming in that that's going to dictate when I'm going to draw my bow. Right. I typically draw mine at the last possible second. I, I, I look at the, where I see the bull coming the very first glimpse, I see him coming and I'm trying to figure out his path to where, okay, he's heading towards an opening. At what point do I need to draw my bow to where I don't have to hold it for two minutes. I'm going to have to pull it back.

He's going to walk into the opening and then I'm going to stop him and shoot him. And stopping him too, you know, that's a really big thing is getting that bull stopped. You don't want to shoot that bull when he's walking. You want to get him stopped that way.

Because when a bull, if he's walking and he's, and he's taking a step and if you're not following through with your swing on your, on your shot, um, shoot, you can shoot six, eight, 10 inches back further than you really wanted to just because the amount of movement in a, in a bull elk step. And, uh, you could go from a good hit to a gut shot real easy. So, yeah.

And it's hard sometimes, you know, sometimes people get caught. I've even got caught with my pants down. Don't even have a call in my mouth. Let's say I wasn't, I wasn't the shoe. I wasn't the caller. Right. But any kind of a simple noise, you know, man, you can do like the whitetail guys do go or make a little noise like that. Right. Or a, or a little like a bark or even, you know, just trying to get their attention to stop them. There's times I've had bulls.

I had a heck of a time getting them to stop. You know, um, I'd made a couple of cow calls and they didn't, they didn't stop at all. And finally I had to bark at them or, or say, Hey, get their attention. They were on such a mission. Um, but body demeanor, you know, there again, if you're watching the body demeanor, it's kind of going to tell you how much, how much of a noise you have to make.

Right. You know, and the other thing we didn't talk about as it relates to calling is that because we see this more times than not now in Colorado.

They'll bugle at you from a distance, but if they're coming in and they're going to come in with a shooting range, a lot of times it takes time and they come in silent. You may not even, you may not even hear them come in. It's like all of a sudden you see this antler coming from behind a tree from nowhere. You say, how did he get here without me hearing him or seeing him? You know, it's just, you're like ghosts. So being mentally prepared is so important. Um,

You know, when you're out there, you always got to think that the bull could step into the picture at any moment. I need to be ready.

Yeah. Well, when you're hunting with buddies too, you know, everybody says, I want to be, you know, the, whoever's shooting, I want to be the shooter on point. Right. I want to be the first guy that's set up to where that, if that bull comes in on a textbook scenario, he's going to come to me first. Right. But I think some of that, you know, especially if the bulls are, have been pressured a bit or they're a little tight lipped.

being the second shooter, maybe downwind a ways from the first shooter, being downwind 50 yards, you know, on an alternate route, that might be the way to go. Or,

I don't even mind having a second shooter stand right next to me as the caller, because especially if you're hunting thick country, I've, I don't know how many times I've had the bull make it past the number one shooter up front and make it all the way to me as the caller. And a lot of times I don't even have my bow with me, right? As the, as the caller, I don't have a bow. Um, and the bull walks back to me and stands around, looks around. Dang it. If I'd had another shooter here or if I'd had my bow, I could have smoked that thing. But, um,

Yeah. The setups are so incredibly important. I feel like a lot of folks have a lot of really good luck calling elk up to a certain point and they're set, if their setup isn't, isn't dialed, that's where everything just kind of falls apart. And it falls apart for me too. You know, it's not like I'm not some perfect, perfect expert or something. It falls apart for me as well. But you know, guys get nervous when they don't see, when they've heard them and they don't see them and they end up moving.

And that kills more setup scenarios, I think, than any one thing is guys moving at the wrong time. Yeah, yeah. Go stand up there. You stand right there. Let me do the calls. I'll work the bull, get him across, and then nothing happens for a long time and the shooter moves. But the whole time you're painting a picture as a caller to where this bull thinks, okay, this is what's going on and it's going to drag him through a certain spot.

And man, if, if that, if that shooter moves, it's man really makes it, makes it tough. Or, you know, like you say, if they haven't been, the bull hasn't been calling a lot, he's up there, you know, the shooter's up there scratching his head and kicking dirt, you know, not paying attention and moving around a lot. They can get picked off super easy. Yep. Exactly. It's kind of hard to do those standing in one place, especially if you're on steep ground, pretty soon your ankles are hurting. Sometimes you get caught in positions where it's so darn uncomfortable and they say,

Just hoping you'll be able to move soon, but you gotta, you gotta, you gotta gut it out, you know? Oh yeah. I've sat there for, it feels like an hour, you know, but it hasn't been an hour, but man, my feet will be completely numb because I'm standing on a weird angle on a hillside. And, and I know if I move, I'm going to be nailed. It just, I got to wait just a little longer. Yeah.

Um, but it's that self-discipline, you know, it's like, man, this sucks right now, but here in 10 minutes, it, uh, it's not going to matter anymore. Right. Cause I'm going to either shoot this bull or we're going to be on the chase again. Yep. No doubt.

Well, Bob, this has been great having you on here. I've always said when I grow up, I want to be like Bob Twilliger. You're my hero. And I appreciate you coming on here, sharing your insight and your wisdom from all the years of just doing it out there. So where can people find you on social media? Are you on social much?

Yeah, I am. I'm an active user on Instagram, Bob T756. I'm also on Facebook as Bob Twilger. And certainly any questions you have, I'm glad to help, particularly you Asian guys. I've got a lot of experience with it and I feel that I can offer you some some tips. You know, there's a lot of, you know, a lot of the young exercise stuff, you know, particularly the group oriented stuff like the CrossFit stuff.

You know, you need to keep in mind that that's a lot of that stuff is aimed at younger bodies. And our soldier guys need to we need to find other ways to keep in shape, but do it in a way that doesn't break us down or get us injured. Because, you know, once you get injured, the hell back is going to be steeper climb. So certainly feel free to use me a resource. I'm here for you.

Awesome. Awesome. Well, thanks again. Happy New Year. And I look forward to seeing your adventures in 2024. Likewise, Dirk. And thank you guys for all your help. Really appreciate it. Always good talking with you.

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