27 | Everyday I'm Hustlin' | For Real, For Real
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Wondery Plus subscribers can listen to Black History for Real early and ad-free right now. Join Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts. I like tried so hard to sound cool. I was like, money long. Huh, no, money long. Oh, I'm sorry. Twin, where have you been? I mean, I said I'm an elder millennial and I accept that this is where I'm at.

I think the inequalities in the gig economy is something that's not discussed. If we're not working, we feel like we are worthless. We were hardworking when you could enslave us, but as soon as we wanted to get paid, we lazy. Heritage, black is royalty. From head to toe, black is beautiful. Black is beautiful.

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Something that's been on my mind lately, it's been the gig economy and how everything that glitters ain't gold and how followers do not equal dollars. I think the inequalities in the gig economy is something that's not discussed. We should do it. Yeah, I mean, look, on the followers does not equal wealth, I know that for damn sure. People are always in my comments, girl, you have this many followers. And I'm like, and y'all pay nary a bill. You know what I mean?

on the topic of the gig economy and talking about influencers, even in that space, there's a conversation to be had about who gets put on for what. And I often find that, you know, there's a level of mediocrity that is acceptable from certain communities in the influencer space, in the art space as well, that we would never get away with. And it kind of goes back to the appropriation conversation. But I,

But I'm curious if there's any other specific inequalities that you've witnessed when it comes to the gig economy and what your experience has been as a creator. I think that the way that partnerships and sponsorships are handed out and influence the world specifically...

reflects a lot of ways that racism and ableism and sexism operate and make it where black people either A, are getting lesser opportunities to get sponsorships and partnerships or B, when we get the opportunity, it's significantly less when our white counterparts are being paid. And I think that that has an impact on how our content is disseminated in the algorithm or like the timeline. But it's like, think about it. If you're making content about racism,

You know, you can't use certain words. You got to censor things. Yeah. Social media is all about promotion. Right. Do you think a company wants to buy some ad space with your black ass talking about racism is bad? No, I know for a fact that that happens. And also the platforms themselves have been saying that they're going to deprioritize political content. I know that's something that Instagram had said recently. Yeah.

And I can feel it. You can see it happen, like what's getting pushed in your timeline. And I think you're correct that like when it comes to brand deals, when I was in the natural hair space, that was something that was always really frustrating to me, especially as someone with locks. When natural hair was popping off, unfortunately, I wasn't getting invited to the same events. There was this idea of like, who's

who is more commercial, who is more approachable, who has a more diverse reach and a diverse audience. And so that definitely impacts creators of color, but especially Black influencers and especially in like the beauty space. There's so many brands that don't even cater to

color ranges that fit us and then they do these like fancy brand trips and they just don't even invite black people at all. So I've definitely noticed that and then for me as a someone who's a content creator but then also is like self-employed and works as an actor and as a writer

It's hard chasing down all of these checks and not having the financial backing of my parents as kind of like a safety net in order to say, well, if I have a hard month here or a hard month there, I'm waiting on that 30-day invoice to clear that I don't have somebody that can help me out. I'm waiting on it to clear so she can get a little peace. Listen, well...

I'm up for a job. Learn is like, how much does the job pay? Definitely. Mama hit me up like, we paid yet? What you waiting on? I need it. I need it. I need it. I need it. I need it. I need it. I think that

Hustle culture and cruel optimism, it leads to a lot of crazy things for black folks like exhaustion. Here's an article from the time. It says that the hustle is an idea, a discourse and a survival strategy often glorified as economic opportunity. It is an ode to a type of capitalism that cannot secure the futures of anyone but the wealthiest. But it's popularity lies and now hustling can feel like an equal opportunity struggle.

You see it espoused by mostly black and Latino squeegee kids who jump on and action to clean your car windows or some of those popular kids in Atlanta we've seen giving out water bottles. It's also a rallying cry for many of the black people who have earned college degrees but earn less than white counterparts doing similar jobs, which is why the gig economy is something that we got to really unpackage. We know that statistically speaking, a lot of white high school graduates

are better off in getting gigs than college graduates that are Black. I think that that speaks a lot to the disproportions, you feel me, or disparities in how we get gigs. I mean, you have to look at who the gatekeepers are, right? Because unfortunately, having a degree, while it can definitely open doors for you, there's also this mentality of like, you see this in politics too, where people are like, I want to vote for them because there's somebody I can have a beer with. That happens

happens in the workplace too, where someone will get a job just because it's like, you remind me of my nephew or my cousin, or you seem like somebody that I would want to chill with. And if that person is- A cool hire. Exactly. And so if the person that's hiring you, they're filtering what it means to be someone they want to hang out with, someone they want to have a beer with through a specific lens. And unfortunately, that often is going to tip in certain folks' favor in a way in other folks.

For those that don't know, the term hustle originated as a code for illegal activities. But according to Lester Spence, author of Knocking the Hustle Against the Neoliberal Turn in Black Politics Today, we all have been turned into hustlers trying to monetize our human capital for economic advancement. What has been your experience in gig economy as a black woman?

I have found that I've really had to get comfortable with saying no and not feeling as if I'm falling into like the stereotypes of an angry black woman or being too demanding when I say, this isn't right. You need to pay me on time. Where is my money? I'm not going to do any more work until X, Y, and Z happens. And yeah,

It's really difficult because I have definitely had that idea projected onto me even when I tone police myself. And I've had to get really good at covering my bases, always putting things in writing, always had that paper trail. All of that has come out of...

- Survival, I don't know. - Yeah, me having negative experiences where someone turned around and said, "No, no, no, we said we're gonna do X, Y, and Z," or, "You're being too demanding," whereas I know

friends of mine who are not black have had different experiences. And I will also say a shout out to some of those influencers that have let me know, oh, hey, this brand actually offered me this amount. And then I was able to go back and say, oh, so you offer my friend this amount, you offer me this amount. Or I got offered a brand deal one time where they wanted me to like essentially pitch them the idea first and then decide if I got the job. And I was like, I'm not going to do the work

And then you get to decide if you're going to pay me. And I subtweeted about it. And I got a DM from a white girl that I'm friends with who was like, was it this brand? Because they definitely didn't make me do that. They paid me up front. And I was able to be like, ah, look at this. So even just complaining about my experience

I didn't, I knew that the experiences of other people were different than mine, but it was like actually having the receipts of, oh, y'all are playing in my face. And then I know for a fact that this white girl, you just offered her...

however amount of money up front while you were making me jump through all these hoops for the opportunity to be paid, not even offering me the money up front. Equitable pay is a, is a, is an issue that I see jumps out all the time and throughout black history and throughout world history. But I think that, you know what I'm saying? In terms of this show, it's something to be said about how the value of black people is always already devalued. Yeah.

What about you? Like in the influencer space, but also, you know, you're doing public speaking. You're like, you know, juggling a bunch of different things. I won't tell all your business because you have some stuff that, you know, I don't think you're going to make me sign an NDA at dinner, but, you know, you are cooking up lots of different things. I'm curious what you've experienced in terms of inequality, but maybe some things that are surprising about being a content creator, but also being someone who's essentially your own boss. Yeah.

What I would say is that my experience is a lot of horrible practices that came from the music industry, specifically like hip hop, 360 deals, being able to be, you know what I mean? You put your blood, sweat and tears into something and the company gets to be the main beneficiaries of the IP or the main, you know what I'm saying? So for me, that has been like...

My experience, you know I'm saying is being able to Create something and being able to like being able to have that ownership on it and not being caught up in like a TLC type deal and not being caught up in that Stereotypical 360 deal that a lot of rappers talk about so for me I think about my metaphors I think about it is my intellectual property as a content curator. It's like a rapper owning their masters. I

You know I'm saying me being able to control you know me how my content is Distributed is like a rapper having distribution rights So I really try to think about for me from a business standpoint Entrepreneur standpoint is I got two kids if what might what I'm doing right now My kids can't benefit from it in 10 15 years. I'm really bullshit. Yeah, I need to they can't do that I can't get up and do something different so I'm always trying to think about that and the gig economy makes it where you caught up in a rat race and

You feel me? I want to build for the long term, but these bills do right now. So it might be a horrible deal that I might take or have to deal with or negotiate because I got to pay bills right now. And it might not be as lucrative or as good for the long term, but I got to survive right now. And I think that that's the part that the gig kind of get us in. When we was going on the Harlem Renaissance, if you ain't checked out the County Cullen, W.E. Du Bois episodes, y'all definitely should check those out. What we find is that

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On the topic of hustle culture, one thing that I think about a lot that relates to the gig economy, but I think you and I specifically have experience with, is this idea that you have to work all the time, especially when you don't clock in and you don't have a boss and you're having all these rotating deadlines that actually prioritizing rest feels like you're doing something wrong. I've had many times where I've

I was really struggling with some writing that I needed to do and deadline. And my writing partner said to me, she's like, you know, you can take a day off. I was just like, no, if I don't, if this doesn't happen, then I got to pay these bills. And she was like a day, like a day of rest.

is work because it's replenishing yourself. And like you owe that to yourself. And I'm curious how you have approached the potential of burnout. Cause I feel like that's something that a lot of people in all industries deal with, but especially those of us that are self-employed or entrepreneurial or working all these different gigs, the pressure and the danger of burnout is very, very real. So I've divorced myself. It definitely, definitely the counter. I just, I,

I was diagnosed with adult ADHD. So I know that a lot of the anxiety and a lot of the burnout I was dealing with was really like a lot of untreated ADHD, but also being caught up in hustle culture. For me, when I think about this from a very deep standpoint, I will argue that black people, we always have to negotiate how we're going to do labor because we recognize our self-worth is always going to be tied to what we can do. If we can't do shit, then we feel like we don't have any worth.

We feel like we're not doing, if we're not working, we feel like we're worthless. You see what I'm saying? So I've detached myself from that. It's also that thing of like, we were hardworking when you could enslave us, but as soon as we wanted to get paid, we lazy. Yeah. So like that's so real, but it's like, it's easy for us internalize trying to prove that we are not lazy when there's always going to be something that's inscribed on our body that says that you're a lazy Negro. Right.

If you have that double consciousness that W.E.B. was talking about, in my mind, I ain't going to get caught up in trying to prove myself to the world because I am working.

You don't know what I'm doing, but sometimes I don't have to prove what I'm doing to you. Yeah, thank you for saying that because that's something that I've been really wrestling with myself, this idea of what's enough. That a lot of the hard work that I was doing was not necessarily for my own personal gain, but it was to maintain this illusion of productivity and success and to have these accolades of you're really doing it when...

I don't have to be the best. I don't have to make the most money. I don't have to do all of those. I mean, I'm not doing those things. So like I don't have to, so it's no, it's no, it's no, ain't no, ain't no, ain't no worries. Exactly. And I think when you're talking about hustle culture and like having to have that double consciousness, it's, it's,

being able to zoom out and say like who am I doing this for you gotta pay your bills you gotta you know put food on the table I get that but I think often times people become driven by needing to have these status symbols associated with like my hustle paid for this no days off I remember when that was like and I had that

I'll sleep when I'm dead or when I'm rich. And you're going to be dead quick. Right, because then you don't even actually get to enjoy the benefits of the work that you've done. And I think to tie it back to what you're talking about with W.E.B. Du Bois, as Black folks, we also need to enjoy our work. Enjoy the work. Yeah, we deserve peace. We deserve fulfillment. We deserve leisure, right? Yeah, don't get too caught up in the white gaze, G-A-Z-E.

not gays, G-A-Y-C-S, I know I'm country, so people be like, you say gays? No, I say gays. Like your eyes. The eyes, the white gaze, the way in which white people are able to take their perception on things. You...

It's important that you not only view yourself or your people through that lens. I know that through survival, it's easy for us to do that. Right now, it's a TikTok trend about people talking about being scared of ghetto black people or hood black people. I will argue that that is them viewing their own people through the perception of that white gaze. Right. You know what I'm saying? But y'all love the Sopranos. Ha!

I love him too. Don't get me wrong. White privileges. How are we going to go there then? So when we talk about white privilege, a lot of people hear that word and they assume that they're being told they ain't never struggled. Right. That they ain't never been through nothing.

How do you respond usually when you try to explain white privilege in this context? I try to remind people that everyone has privilege. I think white privilege is the one that we're most familiar with. But the reality is it just means that there are certain things that you don't experience because of who you are. And so I try to use myself as an example. I say, I'm a cis person. So when I go to the doctor, I don't have to deal with, you know, a

uncomfortable questions about my genitals. I can use any bathroom that I want and no one questions which bathroom that I'm using, right? So there are certain things that I don't experience. It doesn't mean that I'm responsible directly for other people experiencing those things, but I have to be cognizant of it in order to create a more equitable world. I am an able-bodied person. I can go to any restroom

and know that I'm going to be able to use it. I don't have to call the restaurant ahead of time and say, is this an accessible restaurant, right? I didn't create those barriers for disabled people, but I need to be aware of them in order to say, you know what, this event's not accessible. Can we make sure there are captions on these videos? Can we make sure there's an interpreter at my speaking gig? And so for me,

It doesn't always work, but I try to do that so that I can say to the other person, we're not all your privilege is something we have to talk about, but this is work that we all have to do. And so that's the approach that I take. What do you do? Because I know you talk about it a lot. I like how you illustrated their privilege. It really made me think about a YouTube video I seen where they were able to talk about if you have, if you come from a two parent household, if you come from this, and it pretty much was illustrating how different people get head starts in

And how when the race start, you feel me, you are already 20 feet away from the finish line. This person right here, they negative. They started back before you even got there. And it's a privilege to not.

- Have you seen the video though? - Yeah, they start at, I forget, I think it's called the privilege walk. I forget what it's called, but they all start in a line and then each person has to step forward or step backward based on whatever the person calls out as a privilege. - Yeah, my experience in talking about white privilege is making a distinction between classism and racism. There is a lot of misnomers that becomes like real textbook racial pathological, like, so you think black people equals poor.

So you think if you talk about your economic class experience as being impoverished, this makes you closer to being black. No, you don't. White privilege don't mean you was born with a silver spoon in your mouth. You don't mean that you ain't never had to struggle. It just means that you didn't do those things and happen to you based off your skin color. And I think that's what I usually like to sit with the distinction or the intersections of race and class and how there are also differences.

rich Black people, middle class Black people, and poor Black people. Now, their class might impact how they experience race, but it doesn't negate. Exactly. You feel me? And it's just that I know that a lot of well-meaningful poor white people

You know what I'm saying? We try to, in my mind, like really flatten the real experiences of how I should different and really be like, I'm just like you. I'm poor too. It's like, now, now, now, listen, now you're going too far. Especially because like, even if you are a poor person, again, doesn't negate your experience. You aren't like your status changes based on who you're around. You could be around somebody else and suddenly your money seems large by comparison. Yeah.

- Yeah, money long. - Exactly. - I like tried so hard to sound cool. I was like, "Money long." - Huh, nah, money long. - No, long, sorry. - Twin, where have you been? - I mean, I said I'm an elder millennial and I accept that this is where I'm at. I don't know the TikTok dances. I don't know all the slang, but you understood what I was trying to say. But your economic status can change in that respect and your experience,

changes as a result, and I think you're right. That's hard for people to wrap their minds around. Because I think the other thing that's hard when you talk about privilege is people assume it means that they are bad, and it means that they lack empathy, and they've been treated, they've had this perfect walk in the park,

And that their privilege is automatically hurting someone else. And that's not necessarily the case. It's just like, you have to be aware of this in order for us to start on the same page that we are all talking about lived experiences versus like, no, we're all the same. We're all in this together. High school musical three, kumbaya. Like, no, we're not. We all have very different experiences and that's okay to acknowledge them. We can't like make things better for everyone if we're not acknowledging

the realities of what we're dealing with. You know, you're in the part of gig economy that I think that we don't talk about enough as well is how it pits Black people against each other. I think that it makes it where we start to have competitions that can be very violent or be very exclusionary about what is

What texture of blackness is most palatable for these white folks to get the gig? And it makes it where now we are literally like Mandigo fighting metaphorically about who can be the most desirable for white people. And I think that it has a huge impact on gig economy and how us black people are able to help each other and or not help each other or how we are allowed for us to be pit against each other.

- Yeah, you mentioned that TikTok trend and that's like the first thing that comes to mind when you say that. It's like, who are you trying to impress? Like when you actually think about that and I think it's hard for people to also just divorce themselves from this idea that your success automatically means like my loss. And especially when it comes to black folks, I'm very much of the mind that like your win is my win. It might not directly come into my pocket or into my hand,

But when you get more opportunities or when other Black people who look like me get opportunities, it paves the way for myself and other people as well. - And when you talk, I didn't realize I had such a great time recording the "Debbie Would Be The Boy" stuff.

When you're talking, make me realize when we had our little chuckle about being a mildly seasoned Negro. And in this context, I think that we have competitions on who's the sweetest or who's the saltiest or who's the spiciest. And I feel like it don't allow for us to really be in our own ambiance and make it where we don't we don't get to create this for the sake of creating. Now we have to create for the sake of consuming and desirability of who can be the most desirably consumed. And it's just like it's whack.

Yeah, I think it's also just worth remembering that, you know, we code switch throughout life. And it's not necessarily because we are trying to gain access to certain places. But when you feel comfortable around certain people, you might speak a certain way. When you don't know people, you know, you're in a new environment, you might change as well. And so it's like not really fair to say like, oh, these type of Black people I don't jive with or I'm...

Like, no, you're only seeing them through one very specific lens. We contain multitudes. You might act and speak and behave this way in this setting and a different one in the other setting. It doesn't make you any less Black. It doesn't mean you're trying to appease whiteness. It doesn't mean that you are denying your full self. It just means, like all people, we contain multitudes. And it's frustrating that as Black people, it often feels like we are told we're not allowed to do that.

Yes. And then we start creating authenticity tests amongst ourselves. And the authenticity test is usually infused by people outside of the community. And that's why I think the gig economy becomes very parasitic to just like the freedom, liberation, almost near existence of blackness because it's like now we have to be fit through a little mold. You got to eat. Yeah. You got to pay the bills.

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Black is beautiful. We were talking about this the other day, is like people using their blackness as like a way to sell themselves, especially like with social media, which is like a gig in itself where you see people kind of like putting on these affectations or acting in a certain way when they don't actually have access to those experiences. Do you think...

It's hard because on the one hand, I understand it. This is like that double consciousness, right? Where I don't agree with it, but I understand where it comes from.

Do you think that we have a responsibility to call out people that are doing that or to divest our attention from them in order to make it less profitable? Because when I see it happening, I see people like sharing it and it's almost kind of like rage baiting, right? They do the terrible thing and then everyone gets mad about it. But then like we put coins in their pocket by talking about it. I'm just curious if you've thought about that.

Man, I definitely thought about it. I think that when it comes to the time and attention that we give people, we should be very mindful of how that time and attention gets switched in the capital. I feel like it's like a strategic thing. You know what I'm saying? Sometimes you got to call out the nonsense.

but also being mindful that calling out the nonsense is kind of what they want sometimes that creates the viral moment and people clicking and talking trash about you and getting random views up. So for me, this is really thinking about how specifically like hood black people, you feel me, ghetto black people, how a lot of the aesthetics can be separated from our bodies and made it where other, even black people that's not from the hood get to take on the aesthetics and literally get to be like, you really not like that.

You get the benefit from taking this on, but this entire community is still police for it. And you don't turn around and say you scared of these folks or say, well, I made it out. Why you can't make it out? It's like because you've created this good Negro, bad Negro dichotomy. You feel me? Or if you didn't create it, you perpetuated it. You bought into it. You benefited from it. You happily benefited from it.

You know what I'm saying? And it's just like, I know when it comes to social media, for me, there has been times that I feel like I know that I'm unapologetic. And I know that me talking about white supremacy and anti-Blackness and racism makes it where I have to always think about how palatable and consumable is consciously being for this thing. What's for me is for me. And what ain't for me ain't for me. And I've learned to have it that way. But there has been times that I've been salty, unapologetic.

have resentment or feel like a little like, you know, questioning myself worse or questioning how I should get my messages because I'm feeling like I'm being, I'm smart as them or I can do this as them, but I'm getting skipped over because I might've pissed you off. I mean, the reality is that's something I think all of us have to think about. It's something I think about all the time. You know, there are certain doors that are closed to me because I've talked about certain things and I'm unapologetic. And the reality is that people that, that

that people will find reasons to discredit your message no matter what you do. There's like no perfect way to do or say anything. And it's easier said than done, but I'm kind of in the same space where I'm trying to believe that like,

I'm at where I'm supposed to be. And that if a door closes to me, that was not the door I was supposed to move through. If you don't want to work with me, I don't want to work with you either. I want to go where I'm called. Yeah. I feel like that's genuinely the attitude. It's hard. It made me think about that Tupac skit where he was like, I see y'all, I'm outside. Y'all got pastrami, y'all got this, that, and the other. I'm knocking on their door.

knocking at the door please let me in he said he's saying it like i'm singing it knock knock knock knock knock i'm opening at the door i'm still in me he said after a while he started getting tired that that little jingle started being like i'm coming through the door black so it's like it's for me it's like hey it's certain it's certain it's certain shit i'll let you have it but if i want it and i think it should be mine yeah i'm coming through the door good luck on keeping me out

Yeah, I'm definitely, I'm- I'm pick and choose now. Yeah, no, I hear you. But I will come through that door and come get what I think is mine. And you can just stop me from it and we can see what happened. But I'm coming. I mean, look, this is the thing that I really appreciate about us is we are so different. Like we're similar in a lot of ways, but we're so different. Like my approach is kind of like, I'm gonna build a different door. I'm coming through this. I will build another door. But if I like this door right here-

Yeah. We finna make something. I'm like, let's go to overstock.com. Hell nah. This dog right here got something special about it. This right here, I got the key for it. You ain't finna block me from it either. Yeah.

You know what I'm saying? Sometimes you got to claim it. And it's just that recognizing for me, it's like I've been told a lot of my life is certain things that I shouldn't have and I ain't going to come. My attitude a lot of times be like, you know what you said? I can't have it. I finna come for it and then some. I recognize that it's my privilege as a cisgender straight black man that I can get to be a little bit more aggressive and charismatic with how I get to deploy that aggression. I ain't ignorant to it, but it's like it is what it is. I'm coming. Yeah, I appreciate that you said that.

Because I do think that that's part of my hesitancy, that I err on the side of being...

more professional. - You're a black woman that's always seen as taking up too much space. - Always, always. And even when I, it's so interesting because we talked about this before offline, but throughout my career when I talk about race, I get painted as angry. Even when I'm not angry, even when I'm like smiling. - And just get so soft spoken. It's just like angry. It's like, "Ding!" - I know, it's wild. And I've had times-- - Difficult to work with.

Like, I'm so, you know what I'm saying? I know, and I've had times that I've met people who only knew me from, you know, shows that I've worked on or TV appearances I've done, and they always say, oh, my God, I'm shocked when I met you in person. You're so different than how I pictured you because oftentimes I would get clipped and

and screenshotted in a way that made it look like, oh my God, she's so angry. Or, you know, I make a response to something and I go, you're attacking me. I'm like, I didn't know you were saying anything. So I realize, I acknowledge, I recognize, that's my conscious impression. I recognize that I have internalized that in a way that makes me angry.

Like, I actually curse a ton in my real life, but I've gotten to a place where I pull it back because I realize, oh, this might make me look a certain way or you're not going to respect my opinions in that way. So I appreciate you saying that. I had the privilege of being able to slide into being a magical Negro.

It's something I've been very conscious of in my life since I was in middle school, really since elementary. I recognized that it was certain ways that I expressed and navigated, you know what I'm saying, the world that was much more palatable compared to a lot of my other homeboys. You know what I'm saying? Sometimes I did with like a little survival's remorse, but I know that the way that white people see me, especially how I'm now being 33,

that like the humor, the charm, but the aggression is I'm able to get away with it. So I know that even how I take up space, it's going to be a lot different from you. Because it's certain, I'm not worried about it. Yeah. You know what I'm saying? Where it's like, you know, and yeah, what? You know what I mean? It's like, so what? You know what I mean? I know that you don't necessarily have that privilege because there's more implications on your body than it's on mine. Yeah. Yeah.

I mean, look, that's one thing that I really appreciate about the conversations we're able to have on this show, that you create a safe space where I can share that that's something that I struggle with and that that's something that I've learned over time about myself. And that similarly, you feel safe enough to express that those are things that you've realized about yourself and that you're able to move through the world in certain ways. Like, that is Black history for real.

If you like Black History for Real, you can listen early and ad-free right now by joining Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts. Prime members can listen ad-free on Amazon Music. Before you go, tell us about yourself by filling out a short survey at wondery.com slash survey.

Black History for Real is hosted by me, Consciously. And me, Francesca Ramsey. Black History for Real is a production of Wondery and DCP Entertainment. The theme song is by Terrace Martin. For DCP Entertainment, associate producers are Quentin Hill, Brittany Temple, and Chris Colbert.

The senior producer is Ryan Woodhall. Executive producers for DCP Entertainment are Adele Coleman and DJ Treacy Treese. For Wondery, Lindsay Gomez is the development producer. The production coordinator is Desi Blaylock. Sophia Martins is our managing producer. Our producer is Matt Gant. Our senior story editor is Phyllis Fletcher. The executive producers for Wondery are Marshall Louie, Erin O'Flaherty, and Candice Manriquez-Wren. Wondery.

Hey, I'm Mike Corey, the host of Wondery's podcast, Against the Odds. In each episode, we share thrilling true stories of survival, putting you in the shoes of the people who live to tell the tale. In our next season, it's July 6th, 1988, and workers are settling into the night shift aboard Piper Alpha, the world's largest offshore oil rig.

Home to 226 men, the rig is stationed in the stormy North Sea off the coast of Scotland. At around 10 p.m., workers accidentally trigger a gas leak that leads to an explosion and a fire. As they wait to be rescued, the workers soon realize that Piper Alpha has transformed into a death trap. Follow Against the Odds wherever you get your podcasts. You can listen ad-free on Amazon Music or the Wondery app.