40 | NYPD's Secret Story | For Real, For Real
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Yeah, we're about to get into another episode of Black History For Real. For Real, where we chronicle the stories of movers and shakers from Black history all over the world. The stories will inspire you, educate you, and more often than not, leave you shaking your damned head. I'm Francesca Ramsey. And I'm Conscious Lee.

So Conscious, you chatted up with Dr. Chinjerai Kumanyika for this episode, all about his newest show, Empire City, covering the history of the NYPD. And we will hear some of that interview in a little bit, but what are your thoughts

on his upcoming show? I think that his show is a bit revolutionary, actually. I think that the stories that he's telling about the NYPD and the way that he's telling those stories are very captivating. I listened to a few of the episodes and I learned a lot.

I learned that when it comes to getting different people to police your community, like if you're in the Filipino community, you're going to get a Filipino police officer that actually came from the Philippine colonizing, like colonizing the Philippines, that there was a police officer that worked

There was somebody that was a part of the police enforcement that was also very familiar with the colony they had in the Philippines. And that's what they got in the Philippines. Like, how can we keep these Filipinos from resisting our colonialism?

we should get another Filipino to police them. Yeah. That's where it come from. You know what I'm saying? Yeah. That's interesting. I mean, you know, I have limited knowledge and experience in that realm, but from what I've learned, I have seen some really interesting things similarly with media, right? Like when cops are presented in the media, especially the NYPD, they love the show Black Cops, right?

you know, planting evidence and doing the wrong thing. And it really does feel like this concerted effort of,

to change the way that we understand policing through this like diversity representation of it all. And it's like, not to say it doesn't happen, but it is a very biased depiction. But I feel like there's something else percolating here and that this is not the only thing you want to talk about. Listen, listen, listen. I feel like

The ancestors, you know what I'm saying, lined it up so smooth where I'm preparing to go have this conversation about the empire of the NYPD at the same damn time that the Mayor Adams is being indicted. Oh my God.

For five federal charges of robbery. This is very, very interesting because now I imagine he has different ideas about that cash bill he was talking about. And he feel like he should get due process. But when he was just defending them people that got shot, you know what I'm saying, in the subway, he didn't feel like they deserved due process. He honestly, he feels like a super, like a comic book villain. Like the way that he

acts and talks is just, it's so unbelievable.

And you know what? Due process comes for everybody. And I think that he is in for a much-deserved rude awakening because the way that he has wrecked havoc on New York City and its residents, it's really been a sight to behold. And, you know, he's going to face the consequences of his behavior. Yes. And just so we're clear for the people in the back that's listening, right? Mayor Adams got indicted on five federal charges, bribery,

Fraud, solicitation of illegal foreign campaign contributions. Just a mess. I'm talking about not just a mess, a bit, you know, hypocrisy of democracy. This man right here been chastising a lot of New Yorkers whole time. He breaking a law. Every accusation is a confession, as the girls say.

And too, because, you know, I am individually broke, me and Francesca. So, you know, all this is allegedly. We don't have no time to go with the police union in New York. You know, y'all do not play about New York's finest. All this is allegedly what we heard through the streets. We know that everybody, they're always making jokes. Everybody does deserve due process, even when you think other people don't deserve it. You feel me? You still should get it. Shout out to you, Mayor Adams. You know, it's a lot of times when we talk about policing.

Black women kind of get overlooked. We got the say a name hashtag, but it's like, is that enough, though? Like, I'm curious, Francesca, what are your thoughts on police, you know, especially the overall state of policing in the U.S., especially when it comes to how Black women get positioned in that? Yeah, I mean, unfortunately, this is something that we've talked about a number of times on the show, how Black women are often at the forefront of,

of these progressive movements, but then we don't get the credit or we're spoken over or the credit is completely stolen from us. And unfortunately, we've seen that too often when it comes to stories about police violence, that women, Black women are also victims of police violence, but unfortunately, our stories don't always get the same level of attention. And when they do get attention, it's because Black women are at the forefront demanding that attention.

And it's just so unfortunate that these types of situations are the ones that make Black women's voices heard. I mean, the founders of the Black Lives Matter movement were three Black women. And of course, we are appreciative for the work that they've done. But it is unfortunate that it continues to be at the expense of the lives and safety of Black people that those voices need to be centered at all. So.

So, yeah. And you know what? I'm glad that this show is a space for us to have those conversations. But I also think we need to sometimes like lighten the mood a little bit. And so conscious, I feel like I feel like you have a knack for that when it comes to artfully segwaying from like the heavy stuff to like the lighter stuff. So I'm going to put the ball in your court because I just I feel like something's on your spirit.

Yes. You know, with the ball being in my court trying to provide some what I'm going to call some conscious comedic relief. Okay. Okay. Today, we definitely going to get a little deep and we just got a little deep from talking about, you know, black women and policing. But I'm going to ask you the same question that I proposed to Dr. Tingerock. What is the blackest shit you've done this week? Oh, yeah.

Okay. Okay. The blackest thing that I've done this week is I handed my friend some hand lotion without any prompting. I saw those ashy ankles. I saw it looked like a white sock poking out. I said, you should not wear socks. You know what? Let me just hand this to you. And to her credit, she knew exactly what it was for. She said, you

it's gotten a little colder outside here in Los Angeles. The skin is reacting as it does. And you got to be ready to put a little, a little extra love on those ankles. Yeah.

But that's real love. That is love. Like, I can't hear you out here crusting and dusting in the streets. Absolutely. Not with me. Not with me. Listen, on your own time, do what you own do. I have a brand to protect. We can't be out here. Man, did y'all see Frankie, the one that be singing? Man, it look like, it look like, it look like the Leopards, A-Buddy Elbow. How, how, how, how?

Just a little dusty cloud simmering around their feet. What about you? What's the blackest thing that you did this week? Man, I think the blackest thing I've done this week is...

I got some soul food on Sunday. I had some oxtails, some cabbage and some yams. And I ate it with my grandma and my little sister. And I felt like that was the blackest thing that I had done all week. And so far, I feel like I ain't in the topic that much. You know what I'm saying? Yeah, I think that's you set the bar high. You know what? On that note, let's hop into some black history for real and take a listen to your interview with Dr. Chinjerai Kumunyika.

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This man is uncovering and lifting some wild ass history that might get him put up on one of them lists. So we're going to make sure we're looking out for this brother. Let me tell you something. As a country southern bumpkin that's always tired of people being lost in the South. So the North versus the South paradigm and acting like what's going on up North is not reflective to a lot of the white supremacy down South. Watching or listening to the podcast is very interesting.

Refreshing. We're going to get into some heavy things today that might make you a little uncomfortable and make you look at the empire that you've grown to love and be indoctrinated by a little bit different. You know what I'm saying? You might even look at it sideways like they did. Why? You know, before we get into all that, though, let's start off a little light. It ain't no wrong answers. You know what I'm saying? But dead ass doc, what is the blackest shit you've done this week?

the blackest thing I've done this week. There's a seafood spot that I love up at Harlem, 125th Street. It's called El Puerto. You know, there's times I took people there and I think they thought I was going to be impressed because they was like, oh, we going to New York. We going fancy. And I'm like, nah, bro, this joint is like

It has, they got like this fresh seafood out there. They, they sort of, you know, slow boil it for you and all this other stuff. You can put the seasoning in and they put it to you like an, a foil. They put it in a foil can, you know what I mean? And it's, I'm pissed. Cause yo, no,

Not a foil can, sorry, I mean like a foil pan. They put it in like a, you know, they put it in like a, in other words, they don't give it to you in a regular packaging. It's like a foil joint. Like it already looked like leftovers when you get it. That's the point I'm trying to make to you. And it's like, it's so good. And I, you know, I like to go all the way up there and get that sometime. My wife be getting mad at me because it's not really practical, you know, to do it. But it's, you know what I mean? I'm like, yo, sometimes that's what it gotta be. You know what I mean? So that for me, that was maybe one thing I did. My follow-up question.

What has been the blackest response you've seen to mayor of New York getting indicted? What has been the blackest response? Woo. Well, you know, I mean, I mean, obviously black, black,

Twitter or whatever the hell is called now has been going up in all kinds of funny ways. Somebody had a rat, like the rat was like the Don, like tell Adams it was me. Cause you know, he'd been going after the rats. That was pretty funny. But I think in some ways the blackest response was that we know that because this is run by the FBI, that as much as there's a lot of black folk in New York celebrating right now, this is not about us. But through protests, what I'm seeing is black folk have a tendency to, and when we see America going in a certain direction, we make it about us.

We did it with the Civil War. You know, Lincoln wasn't really about us, but we made it about us. And I see. And to me, that's the blackest thing I see black folk doing right now. You know what I mean? Yeah, that was the blackest thing I've seen was was was the response at the press conference. But he had the bullhorn and he was so loud. He was so loud that you could not like ignore him.

So the whole, you anti-black, you da-da-da-da. I'm like, ooh, they on your ass, black man, they on your ass. But I think that's the thing, though, to me, is that, like, to me, like, one of the blackest things is, as a black person, being able to call another black person out for being anti-black or being able to call another black person out for moving in a particular way.

that has bad impacts on other Black people. That point you make about Black folk being able to call out Black folk, I think that's so important because what you see is Eric Adams and other politicians, they try to wrap themselves with Black people to protect, to give themselves that racial cover is what I call it. You know what I'm saying? And it's like, you know, you see him doing that and then it becomes hard because if people are trying to critique him, offering valid, principled critiques

of him, he's saying he's going to claim it's a racist, it's some kind of racist attack. So when you see Black folk offering those critiques, that's important. As I'm listening to the episodes, I'm thinking about like, damn, so they got this little, this idea from getting other people to police their communities from a colonial project in the Philippines.

And today in the news, we got this black ass mayor getting his black ass indictment for corruption and for a whole bunch of other things. So I'm learning that basically it wasn't even about like community policing.

It wasn't about, to be honest with you, before I heard your episode, I thought that one of the driving forces behind getting people to police the community they grew up in because they would, you know, produce police violence. Can you speak to just like your research specifically in like being a New Yorker?

How the history of the NYPD makes you view the NYPD? Right now, the NYPD is a majority minority organization, meaning that as much as we talk about the NYPD and white supremacy, the face of that white supremacy is more. There's more black and brown officers in NYPD than white officers.

And the NYPD fought that, though. They now they like to show it off. Right. They like to do the diversity two step and, you know, pull all the pull all the officers out and talk about how they respect the community. But the reality of it is that they fought that, you know, like tooth and nail to keep. And you're going to hear those stories in Empire City.

And, you know, even and I'm going to say this, even a moment when you had some black officers who at a certain moment did stand with the community because in the 60s stuff got so real. And I think that when you see the NYPD today.

Every time there's an incident, they try to write it off. This was a rogue cop. Maybe he had bad training. Maybe it was this and that. Well, I know a cop who did this and this and that. But when you understand that this history is consistent patterns that has happened for 180 years.

And when you understand how the system was designed, like I'm talking about like not, not, not, you know, your boy saying something, giving you like one sentence about slave patrols. I'm talking about, I'm going to give you all the receipts. I'm going to give you the documents that shows you what they designed this thing for. And that I think is like, it just hits you different. It hits different. The way you named the podcast. Yes.

Just sitting around the concept of empire. To me, it makes me think about intelligent design a lot and how a lot of times in our community, when we're talking about the police and policing, we tend to talk about how, you know, the police are not failing us. They're working by design. You being a professor and having the range, what are your thoughts on that?

Police reform in the idea that, you know, that the that the system, the empire, the policing happens the way that it is supposed to happen. York ain't the only empire city. You know, I mean, if you understand the police was about, you know, protecting capital, protecting white supremacy, all those things, those things are still true. But I don't like to say it like that because.

What happened is that I think you're actually sometimes not speaking to moments of, of, of black agency and the agency of not just black folks, but all the people who push back, you know what I mean? And you're also giving credit to the system. Like they had all this stuff planned out and it works. They, they still figuring it out at every moment. And at every moment,

They got to fight us and then innovate. And so Empire City shows you those moments of struggle so that you don't just believe that this was just something that ain't changed and you're not respecting all those moments of change. So that's kind of... It's a little bit of nuance because I don't want people to feel like I'm soft peddling it. I don't think... But it's like I'm saying, no, I think it's a more powerful indictment to say that this system is not by design. It is adapted and in some ways become worse. I'll say...

as a son of two convicted felons, both that are probably looking at incarceration right now as we speak, I know a lot about policing. I know a lot about the empire of the small town that I live in, you feel me, that I'm from, you know, in Texas. And me thinking about what happens with the visceral state of policing, you got this real powerful scene grappling with the history of Seneca Village and talking to your four-year-old daughter. Mm-hmm.

And you know, one day you're in the Central Park with your four-year-old daughter at a place that used to be Seneca Village. It was formerly a home of 19th century free Black settlement. There was a moment you felt unsafe at the park and your daughter was just chilling. Here's a little clip from it. As I sit playing in the sandbox with Iñola, I see a police officer approaching the edge of the playground and my body instinctively stiffens. I look down and she's still playing, completely carefree.

Part of me wants to freeze her in this moment. But then, something comes over me. The police are already a part of her world. I've seen them in the cartoons she watches and her toys. And they're even cops at her school. And I start wondering, what is she actually picking up from all that? - And Yola, let me ask you a question. What do you think the police do

She puts down her sand shovel and her eyes start back and forth, searching for the right answer. They-- they-- they keep people safe. I mean, that is what the police say their job is. But when I hear her say it, I start to panic. They-- they-- they keep people safe. Why did that moment make you panic so much?

Well, you know, I mean, that was that's the real question that all of us face. You can't escape it if you're a black parent and if you're, you know, a parent of any ethnicity or race who wants to, you know, educate your kids about the real about the police. So my daughter at the time was four years old.

And I started realizing that actually I'm sitting here asking this question, but police are already in her life because their programs are moving forward. Right. Police in her schools. I started becoming more attuned to all the ways the cops are showing up in like cartoons. You know, I start watching cartoons like, you know, different. You know what I mean? I'm looking at the cartoons like, wait a minute, that's just cops. Oh, wait a minute.

Is that Batman? Is Batman just a cop? You know, I'm like, oh, Green Lantern cop, like everything, Paw Patrol. But then one day, even on Akili, they showed up talking about some police are our friends. And I'm running. I ran in the living room like, wait, you know, turn that off. And so I realized that history was the way in because I don't want to give her their narrative.

which is the police keep us safe. And just, it ends there. And I also don't want to just give her my political talking points. I want her to have her own discovery of, you know, a sort of journey of discovery. And I realized what she needs to know is what we all need to know. What is the actual factual history of this? How did this thing emerge? You know what I mean? I mean, you could just say police came from slave patrols, but first of all, that's not,

That's not only, it's not only that, it also has to do with capital and, you know, all these other things. And it's like, you know, class repression. It has to do with policing gender. But,

It's also about saying, like, we all need to know what actually happened. And that factual historical basis allows me to have that conversation with someone who might think differently than me. I personally, you know, when it comes to this question of police reform, like, you know, I've seen the conversations go around and around. I live my life as a black man in America. I find it very interesting.

I found the abolitionist perspectives to be the smartest. I mean, they just gave the explanations that made the most sense when they say, you know, all this punishment does not actually get us where we need to go. But the beauty of the history is that even if you totally disagree and love police, we can still come in on a historical questions and start from that common basis.

I mean, to be honest with you, I got an eight year old and a six year old. And I'm currently figuring out different ways to try to drop tidbit pieces of the reality that I know that is awaiting them when they are out of their innocence without trying to push them all the way out of it. My son, you know what I'm saying? Sometimes he talks about being a police officer. You feel me? And as a dad, it's like I don't want to discourage my son from what he wants to do.

I want him to experience the world for himself, but I don't want to make it where I'm trying to take his innocence so much that it becomes unsafe. Because you and I know the reason why you freeze up is because you know you can get your ass whooped.

You know that you can be, you know what I'm saying, racially profiled. You know that you can be criminalized. You know that your freedom or your, you know what I'm saying, life can be taken away from you whenever that, that uncle comes about and you recognize that, that, that, that, like what, what threat, the danger that has. But you also, as a father, you don't want to take the innocence from your kid.

I'm Erlon Woods. I'm Nigel Poore. We're the hosts and creators of Ear Hustle from PRX's Radiotopia. When we met, I was doing time at San Quentin State Prison in California. And I was coming in as a volunteer. The stories we tell are probably not what people expect from a prison podcast. ♪

Like cooking meals in a prison cell. Keeping little pets. Prison nicknames. And trying to be a parent from inside. Stories about life on the inside, shared by those who live it. Find Ear Hustle wherever you get your podcasts. Now, Francesca, I know you ain't got your own little booger eaters, your own little crumb snap that's running around.

You've been a kid before. That is true. And, and, and, and my question is, do you remember how you view cops as a kid? What do you think about that? Oh yeah. I mean, as a kid, you know, I think I had the same view. A lot of kids that I was growing up with had that like cops were somebody to be respected and a little feared. Like they're the ones that are going after the bad guys. Um,

But I also realized, you know, I went to like Catholic school and I lived in a very integrated, a very diverse and integrated neighborhood. And in many ways, I think my parents went out of their way to kind of shield me from the realities of what it meant to be a Black person in the world. And so for that reason, my view was kind of limited in scope as to

what the police actually did and how they functioned. So when I was a kid, I just looked at them as like, oh, that's their job. It's right along with like, maybe you're a fireman, maybe you're a doctor, maybe you're a policeman. Like policeman was just in that long list of respected jobs that adults did that protected the community.

Now, that's that's a that's a that's a real last response. That's a real last response, because I know that sometimes we can move away certain jobs from the actual humans that do them. And we forget that these are just working class jobs. Don't get me wrong. Some people can take on a job a little too serious. So their job can lead to pain and suffering. And it doesn't negate, though.

That these are working class jobs or jobs that people work and that's how they pay their bills. You know, some people flip burgers, some people incarcerate people, some people, you know, create wallpaper. You know what I'm saying? Shout out to you. You know, different people have different jobs, you know. My question, though, my follow up question is, what do you wish you would have known as a kid about the police that you didn't know?

I mean, one thing that I know now is how much media shapes our understanding of the police. You know, I'm somebody that grew up watching Law & Order, you know, and I love Law & Order. And, you know, as an actor, Law & Order is like the pinnacle. Like that's the job you want in New York. If you can book that show, it's a stepping stone into like the next phase of your career, you know,

And it really frames the police in a way, even when police are doing the wrong thing, it's always framed as like, but they're doing it for the right reasons. Or a bad apple. Or they're a bad apple. And if they're a bad apple, everyone is like, no, we won't stand for this, right? Again, it really...

And even like some things like superhero movies even kind of perpetuate this idea of who the police are and like what justice means and what it means to be a criminal and right and wrong and all of those things. I really don't think it was until I got into adulthood that I was really able to understand that. Yeah.

And also just understanding like who gets criminalized and what behavior is criminalized and also like what leads people to crime. That's not to say that like there aren't consequences for criminal behavior, but like our understanding of what it means to to criminals.

you know, steel pampers, for example, like, or if, or if you start doing drugs, which again, it has been criminalized, but like my, my understanding of addiction now is very different from, you know, when you do dare in high school and like,

succumbing to drugs is like a moral failing. Like you did something wrong. Like you are a bad person. You made bad choices rather than a combination of things, which is often like a victim of circumstance where you live, unequal opportunities, your parents' economic status, you know, also drugs being pumped into our community. Like there's so many things that lead people to drug usage. So it's similarly just like

You don't always know what you don't know. And I think that that's been the biggest eye-opener for me in adulthood. And I can definitely say that that's true when it comes to my understanding of the police. You made a few points.

And one of the points that you made is thinking about how ingrained, I'm going to call it copaganda, how ingrained copaganda is in our society and how even in the black community, Hollywood has figured out different ways to sell us narratives. But we are, in fact, as well, like raging on for the copaganda.

We know that there's a recent hit movie that came out. The black folks was like, I gotta watch this. Gotta watch that bad boys. The whole bad boys series. I'm talking about the whole franchise. How can we humanize the illegitimate violence of police while also paying them to be the good guys that always able to bring social order. In fact, I was with my son watching the Avengers series.

And I'm telling my wife, like, you know what I'm saying? She, she, she been together since I was 17. So she know I'm, I'm with the shits. I'm like, baby, you don't find it funny that Captain America, he basically a law man. That's bringing order to the entire world, saving the entire world. Thanos to me look like the indigenous other. So now you got all these Avengers. They police, you know what I'm saying? You feel that? They, they, they, they 12. You feel me? These are long. These are, these are,

Superpowered, vigilant officers. You feel me? It's just like, you can't look past the way that we indoctrinated to view

in a way that make you, when we want to start calling out bad policing, it's like, it's going to go again. So you're the antagonist going against the protagonist. Let's get back into your chat with Dr. Chinjerai. Speaking of like the history and us talking about being dads right now, man, you give the audience a entry point to who your father was to you. But there he is, my dad.

A black man, about six feet tall, wearing a dark fitted suit and a skinny tie. He looks like me. He's moving, interacting with others. He's alive. I want him to walk out of the screen so I can hug him. But the more I watch, the more I feel confused and angry.

Because this video is surveillance footage shot by a counterintelligence unit of the New York Police Department. Just out of curiosity, man, knowing that this is a big moment for you and, you know, it definitely can be emotionally evoking. Tell me a little bit about your pops and how was it seeing the footage of them?

I had never seen, you know, video footage of him. He died in 93. That was before the Instagram, you know, age, you know what I'm saying? Where you are video, even phone camera age where you could, you know, so I, somebody sent me this clip and I saw this video of them. Actually, they sent me a database and I said, my dad might be in here. And I spent hours searching the database. It was the New York's database of surveillance. And I see this video and it's my dad. It's black and white video. He's young. He's moving around. And yo, I felt like I wanted to hug him. I hadn't seen my pops.

But it was, then I had to realize like, this is NYPD surveillance footage. The reason why this footage exists is because these people were surveilling, surveilling my dad, targeting him and stopping black people basically from fighting for black liberation. Right. That was, that was the purpose of that department. And part of the reason why I wanted to start there is because so many of the conversations we have are about incidents of police brutality and murder. Right. And then the debate becomes, was this a, was this a rogue incident? Was it reflective? You know, blah, blah, blah. It's like,

But this was different. This was a department that was created to surveil, infiltrate, provoke and stop black people who were fighting for black liberation. And that that was and so it gave me a new connection to my father. This happened in 1964. Right. So I'm getting to know a version of my father that I never knew in person because he discussed it. But you know what I'm saying? I'm seeing him when he was younger, when he was in it.

And it's it's it's deep. And so I feel like this journey has also been about me getting closer to my pops and understanding what he stood for. Man, and that's something that I appreciate about the podcast is because it was able to highlight how a lot of times we get caught up in those spectacle instances of violence when it comes to police brutality. And we don't think about the everyday camouflaged instances of just extrajudicial law or them, you know, I'm saying collecting all this evidence or, you know, surveilling us or taking our autonomy.

But speaking of your pops, your pops was definitely on a receiving end of some heavy ass police surveillance. And we're still dealing with this type of surveillance today. The NYPD used facial recognition in 22,000 cases. Yes, 22,000 cases between 2016 and 2019. Black people were more likely to be misidentified for the text.

which is a double whammy, man. My question, how do we take our understanding of the history of the NYPD surveillance systems and use that to understand the state of black America in relation to police today? I teach at New York university and write and, um,

One of my colleagues is named Meredith Broussard. She has a book called More Than a Glitch that talks about how some of these racist systems are built into AI. She's one of many scholars in that field who talk about how this stuff is not, you know, this stuff is not a glitch. It's baked in to these systems. So that's one thing. So that means that when policing brings in tech, they're not bringing in something neutral. They're bringing something that already has empire politics embedded and coded into that tech already. And then technology.

They are police, which is already about empire. So I think but I think when you look, when you go back, I think what you see is that all those techniques of surveillance, I think I didn't understand how far back they went. There's a scholar whose name is Matt Gariglia. He appears in the podcast and his whole field is surveillance. So he really looks at, you know, this history. And you realize that one of the takeaways we can take is that the way policing developed

was really very much in concert with colonialism. So they're bringing in colonial techniques. And I think that's important because what you got to understand is the techniques that are being used in our cities. I mean, if you live in certain parts of the neighborhood, you know what I'm saying? And you've lived like, you know, like, look, I live in New York now, but I used to live in Philly and we'll probably move back. You know what I'm saying? I don't live too far from North Philly. If you live in North Philly, the idea that the police are a colonial entity is very clear and visible and material. You see it, you know what I'm saying? Because you see how they come in.

But these are tactics that they learned that are not about keeping you safe. They're about keeping you in line. They're about keeping you in order, the surveillance and all those things. So I do think, though, it's a little tricky. And I'm curious to get your take on this, Katja. It's like sometimes when I think about a world that would have less policing.

I wonder what role technology might need to play in that. Because technology is so caught up in the carceral state the way it is now, I think that it will only make sense that it has to be some way a part of us living in a state that had less policing or a state that didn't have any at all. I think that based off of how a lot of us now have been indoctrinated, think about our children.

And how much they don't know about the world based off of what technology tells them. You feel me? How much our kids going to buy into policing based off of what technology tells them.

tells them. You see what I'm saying? Except for me, because from an educational standpoint, I really view technology as being another tool of education. And don't get me wrong, miseducation is happening as well. And there can also be a tool of miseducation. I would assume that at the very minimum, it would have to be a part of the educational piece and how we disseminate information and getting individuals to think about alternatives instead of

discipline or instead of executing people, you know what I'm saying? How we come to have like conflict resolution that's not always caught up in like killing the body or punishing the body, you know? You were talking earlier to how the NYPD has taken on this multicultural, we will fight for the rainbow coalition to be a part of the policing. In one of your episodes, you

I feel like you speak to how there is a history of the NYPD being able to co-opt different aesthetics from different groups they police while making it like we're trying to do this to help help y'all. When in actuality, it's just, you know, the empire co-opting different individuals bodies to ensure the state. Can you speak to this a little bit more?

Absolutely. And I should say a brief quick note is that this doesn't only happen with black people. You're going to hear in Empire City how this question of how the NYPD comes into communities gets applied to all kinds of folks, Italians, Irish, you know what I'm saying? All different kinds of folks, you know what I mean? But black people are kind of like the last people to be let into the NYPD officially.

But what, this was a space of learning for me, conscious, you know, where I was like, where I was like, yo, cause I kind of looked at it like, why would black people back then want black cops? Like you should know, because I'm now living on the other side of this 180 years, 200 years of history. And it's, but you know, I actually had to learn it, you know,

They were actually, it makes sense. You know, we interview Mariam Kaba and, you know, Sister Mariam, you know, a brilliant genius and just incredible organizer. She said, listen, she said, one thing is that Black people understand that if they can't have police officers, they can never be real citizens.

So even if we think that the issue is like, even if we think it's impractical or whatever, you have to understand that that's kind of like a version of a freedom dream. Right. And what really educated me was that one of the big advocates for that in New York was a brother named Thomas Fortune.

And Thomas Fortune was he ran a newspaper called The New York Age, and he was determined to integrate Brooklyn's police force and New York's police force. And so seeing black folks having that dream back then early on in the experiment that we can have cops that represent us, that was educational for me because I had to I had to respect where they were coming from at that time.

What you see, though, is first the NYPD completely fight against them. They took some of those initial black cops, Moses Cobb and them. They say, you got to work as doorman. They wouldn't even let him patrol. You know what I mean? But then what you see is the NYPD kind of goes, oh, wait a minute, you know, because they start realizing that black cops are very useful when there's an accusation of racism.

You know, when a white cop has killed a black person, they was like, we can roll out this black face and say, look, it's not about racism. And it becomes an effective symbolic tool. And so they once they get on to that, it's kind of like this thing start to loosen up a little bit. But then they actually face a different battle. Right. Which is now the kind of leaders understand the power of having black cops putting a black face on that state terror on that state terror.

So just watching that whole journey all the way to today where, you know, you literally have Mayor Eric Adams, right? He's a black cop. He's mayor. And yet he's still doing the work. I don't care how black this man's skin color is. He is doing the work of white supremacy. He's not helping the liberation struggles we need for housing, for justice, for food, for health care, for transportation.

What he's doing is defending cops who shoot us down in Sutter Ave, you know, for a 290 fare and then defend the cops that did it and don't even go to the hospital for the bystander who got shot in the head. Man, I think like what you just said was so powerful. To me, it's a rhetorical question. I like the opposite is what does it mean to have black faces in high places?

When those black faces still operate the same as the white folks did before they got into that space. Because to me, we talk a lot about representation and then we'll get lost in that is the functionality is that if we have a black slave master and we have a white slave master and both of these slave masters lead to black death and black suffering.

What is the uniqueness of having a black slave master other than the person that's taking on the violence has to look at somebody and look like them putting it on them? I think that that's a question that we have to grapple with, especially in this upcoming election and how we hold people accountable is that black faces in high spaces, it's not enough.

especially in an empire that is structured in a certain way, which leads me to, you know what I'm saying? Kind of one of the final questions, you know what I'm saying? Taking us all up out of here a little bit. What are you hoping people take from this show? And what are you hoping changes about the state of policing in America, if you can at all? The conversation about police, it feels cyclical to me. It feels like this. I'm seeing people say the same things. And I think a lot of people feel like that. And that's why a lot of people...

have grown tired of this conversation because you kind of know what's going to happen, right? It's like somebody's going to get killed. They're going to say the cop felt he was resisting arrest. If they acknowledge any wrongdoing, they bring out some Black cops, bring out a Black police chief, you know, a Black police commissioner, you know. It's like we've seen these things happen again. We're talking about reform, use of force training. I mean, what I want people to understand is that these conversations are hundreds of years old.

And we need to stop having that same conversation and stop pretending like this three-car monitor you're trying to run is new, you know? And I really wanted to put the whole history out there in that way so that people have access to that. And at least you can enter those conversations on some actual factual historical basis, right? You know, that's, that's, so that, that's one thing I really want to do because I want, I do want to create room for different people who might have different solutions, you know?

to be able to enter in. So that's one thing. I also think that, you know, I'm somebody who makes media, I make journalism, but I think if my podcast just sits on its feed and sits there and people listen and kick back and eat popcorn, I mean, I want you to do that. You should definitely do that. You know, take some time off. You should definitely do that. It's not a bad idea.

Listen to Consciously, listen to Black History for Real, listen to Our Conversation, listen to Empire City, listen to some of the other powerful media out there. But it can't stay there. So I'm trying to also explore ways of impact when working with different community organizations to really ask, not to come down from Empire City, but to say, what is useful about this to you? What's the conversation we need to promote and uplift? What is the revolutionary work that we need to support and make this work a part of that work?

Because in the end of the day, here's the reality. As long as you have powerful people, they're going to innovate and create some kind of police force to try to reinforce that social order. So I don't I don't want to I don't want to seem hopeless and kill our hope. But we are hoping inspiration and safety is going to be found in consistent, ongoing struggle, pushing back against that. You know, I don't I don't think there's going to be a historical endpoint here, even though I do think we can get to a better place.

Big shout out to Dr. Chinjarai, host of Empire City, associate professor of journalism at New York University. I hope they know that they are privileged to have you, brother. And you are doing some amazing work, man. Thank you. Thank you for having me. I got to say, Contras, I am very impressed by your interviewing skills.

You know, you know, I've been working on my game a little bit, you know, shout out to the coach and the producers, you know, they, they, they, they get me looking, looking very nice and doing good. I wouldn't be surprised if an interview turned into a debate with somebody. Hopefully not. But you know, sometimes with me and my impulsivity, it might happen.

Well, I will happily be the moderator if a debate unfolds. I think that you and I will be able to handle it. But we've also got things to do, lives to lead, Black history to dig up. So we do appreciate y'all for tuning into this episode of Black History For Real. Now, Black History For Real is hosted by me, Francesca Ramsey. And me, Conscious Lee. Black History For Real is a production of Wondery. This episode was written and produced by Morgan Givens. Sound design by Sonya May. The

theme song is by Terrace Martin. Lindsay Gomez is our development producer. The coordinating producer is Taylor Sniffin. Nick Ryan is our senior managing producer. Our associate producer is Sonya May. Matt Gant and Morgan Gibbons are our senior producers. The executive producers for Wonder is Marshall Louis, Aaron O'Fleary, and Candace Mariquez-Ren. It's beautiful.

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