Benjamin Watson: "Be Willing To Adjust Your Point of View"
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All right, this week on Live in the Bream, I'm so excited to have someone who has been a friend to the show and is just such an important voice at all times. But we thought, really honored that he would join us at this moment to have some interesting conversation, I hope.

Benjamin Watson's former NFL player. He's author of a number of bestselling books, including Under Our Skin. He is a dad, he's a husband, he does it all. Welcome to Live in the Dream, Benjamin. - Great to be here, great to be here, thank you. - You know, I gotta say, I think your book is fantastic on so many levels. The one thing though that was heartbreaking to me

in reading it is remembering when you're writing, it's in the aftermath of Ferguson, and that's been years ago. What you say in the book, I fear when there's a next time. And here we are at that moment. Are we making any progress, Benjamin?

You know, Shanna, there seems to always be a next time. I think that's the frustrating part about it is that we get to these inflection points. We have these kind of what I would call seminal moments where we all come together and we vow to change things. And then there always seems to be another story that, you know, we see on a video on somebody's, you know, YouTube or somebody's, you know, cell phone. And we're right back where we are with a lot of frustration. So, yeah.

are we getting better? Um, I think this moment is maybe a little bit different. At least that's my hope. And I say that because of what we've seen following, uh, the George Ford murder and Ahmaud Arbery, Breonna Taylor, and kind of this year's version, there seems to be much more of a public outcry and much more, um, awareness, I think, and a lot more, uh,

Empathy, empathy and listening and also action. You know, this moment feels a little bit different, but there's always, you know, our struggle, our struggle as human beings is always the next time. And so there are some things we're going to struggle with a lot, but especially when it comes to race in America specifically, this has been a long, long journey that has gotten better at certain times faster than others, but not as fast as we would all like it to.

Yeah, I think you're right in that in so many ways this feels different and we all hope it will be a leap forward in making some progress. I find there are different conversations that people are having. They're much deeper. People are having uncomfortable conversations, trying to get out of their comfort zones and do something to push things forward. You and I are both open about our faith, very open about that. And what a big part of our lives that is. And I find these conversations are happening in churches more too, especially

Could the church do better? How are we failing? How have we not helped this to progress? And as people who call ourselves followers and representatives of Christ, how can we be doing better? Well, the church plays a vital role. And unfortunately, the church has, in a lot of instances, been the stumbling block when it comes to progress.

you know, treating people correctly, specifically when it comes to race in America. I mean, you know, obviously there've been a lot of people of faith who have been abolitionists and people who have been, you know, people who fought against any type of discrimination along the way. But as a, I guess, a larger body, we have failed to,

as believers, when it comes to really standing up and being a voice and really carrying out, not only the Great Commission, but carrying out what the Bible says in Galatians, where it says that in him there's neither Jew or Greek, there's neither slave or free, there's neither male or female, but that we are one in Christ. The list goes on and on of verses that talk about the humanity of all people, the fact that it talks about in the book of Acts that us being of one blood, God made all nations. And so as believers, we know

That there's but one race and that's the human race. But we, like many others, have failed to live that out on a regular basis. And so right now, I think that it is a call to the church. You know, one thing that I've been involved a lot in is really calling churches and calling believers to lead this fight. When we look through our history and we look at the great changes that have happened for the better, a lot of times it was because

People of faith were leading the way. And it's not just because we want to do things because they're right. It's because we know that as believers, we have to do those things. We are called to live in a certain way. The Bible talks in the book of John when Jesus prays in John 17, and he talks about unity in Christ. That unity that we're supposed to demonstrate to the world is supposed to be a testament to the unity of God.

that Christ has with God the Father and the Spirit. And so it's bigger than us as believers when we talk about this issue specifically, the reasons why we have to be involved, the reasons why we have to

get engaged and be people of humility because, you know, Shannon, we've all been forgiven. And we all understand that before God, before the cross, there is no favoritism. But how do we live that out on a practical basis? That's the difficult part that we're dealing with. I got to tell you, a few weeks ago, before George Floyd's death and all that we've seen in the weeks since then, I had been praying that the Lord would show me where I had sinned.

Things that even if you think it's not intentional or that you gloss over or, you know, attitudes in your heart, any kind of thing. And, you know, if you ask him, he's going to show you. You know, it's just been very eye opening to me and things that unless we take a moment to step into each other's shoes.

and view life from a different perspective, which is one of the things I think your book does so, so well. You talk about conversations that you have with a friend named Chris, who's a white guy and very honest, um, back and forth that you guys have. That's, I mean, these are, these are conversations that are politically incorrect and truthful and honest and raw. Um, and you all trust each other enough to have those conversations. Um, and I thought, um,

How willing, how much more willing should we all be to have those conversations where we can actually make some breakthroughs or some progress? You also talked in the book about very personal experiences that you've had interacting with the police and just describing like, okay, yes, as you, as an average white person in the country, nobody likes the feeling of seeing police in your room. You may be nervous. I'm going to get a ticket. I'm going to get in trouble.

But the way that you're able to describe everything that goes through your mind or your family members' minds, it is such a different experience. And I think for all of us to stop and say, I haven't had that experience. I don't understand it. But listen to it and understand it the best that you can. Put yourself in someone else's shoes.

You did such a great job throughout the book in that and helping people to just have a different perspective than the one that they know. It's easy to say, well, I don't have those experiences or my interactions with the police are great. But to be able to understand what other people go through, I think is a first step in trying to fix the problem. It is. It is. And you mentioned it, you know, it's empathy. Empathy is putting yourself in someone else's shoes. Really, you know, the root of it is trying to feel the pain of another person.

And the reason why we do that is because we care about another person. You know, a lot of times you're not empathetic if you really don't care about someone. And so that's when the relationships come in. Obviously, when you have a relationship with someone, it may be easier to be empathetic toward them. But we're in, we're all Americans. We're all in this team together. There's a common humanity. And so empathy is what allows us really to step into someone else's experience. We do that all the time.

whether it's when we go fight against people who are sexually abused or whether we fight against, you know, against sex trafficking or you name the issue. We do that a lot. You know, even with our children, we see our child and they have a boo boo. We say, you know, I know what that feels like. I don't know exactly what your cut feels like, but I know what pain feels like a little bit. So I'm going to acting on your behalf.

because I care about you and I care about the pain that you're in. And so empathy is vitally important because it opens up the avenue to the next step, which is, you know, educating yourself.

You know, you talk about maybe not having any experience. And I think a lot of the struggle that comes about when it comes to this issue specifically is that we all have different experiences. When I get pulled over by the police, there's a litany of things that I think about. There's a litany of images that I think about. I think about my experiences, other people's experiences. I think about a collective trauma of what policing has meant

Not all the time, but much of the time, historically, for African Americans in this country.

Know that there is a historical trauma or historical relationship that hasn't always been great because of what police have been set out to do as far as, you know, historically concerned, concerning history. And so all that is weighing on me. But when we enter into someone else's experience and let our guards down, what I found and with my friend Chris and with other friends is that we can have an honest conversation. Nobody gets offended.

The next step is obviously educating yourself. And I think that right now, specifically, there's a lot of education going on because people are empathetic. People are willing to pick up a book now.

They're willing to maybe consider how certain neighborhoods became the way that they look. They're willing to consider why is there a wealth gap, you know, between ethnicities? Why, why, how did that happen? They're willing to educate themselves on all these things that before, I mean, I've had conversations, people literally have told me that a month ago, I would have said this was a load of crap, but now,

I've started thinking about these things and educating myself. And I think that, you know, it starts, like you said, with empathy, but that leads to education and it leads to more action, which is where we want to go. Yeah. We got to, we can't just talk about it and read books. Like we do have to take the next step and actually get something moving and move towards reconciliation. But the books actually give you context and it's hard to, it's hard to meet in a place of understanding, right?

If you don't have if we're not entering into this this conversation with the same context, because immediately and what I mean by that is that if you let's just go to extremes. If you think that the reason why certain communities look the way they look, because all those people are lazy.

It's hard for you to come into a conversation with me when I say, well, maybe some of the people are lazy, but look at the situation, look at why they're in this community, look at the resources that have been taken out of the community. These people are just like anybody else. But you would never know that if you never did an education, if you never read about a certain community, if you never read about certain laws, if you never read about certain sections of our collective American history. And so,

That gives us the context there, gives us the ability to have productive conversations that leads to substantive action. One of the other things I, and there's so many great things, I hope people will pick this book up, Under Our Skin by Benjamin Watson. I think it's just such a good way to get into these conversations. You talk about this concept of both

And people think either one thing is true or another thing is true. But you talk about how in the book, especially since we're all coming from different experiences in different places, it doesn't have to be either or. I mean, everyone can be right. Everyone can be wrong. I mean, there's more than one way to look at these things. And it's not your truth or your experience is right and mine is wrong or vice versa. I mean, all those things and experiences can actually be true for people.

Yeah, it's about nuance. And I think that we live in a culture that it doesn't really thrive off nuance because nuance doesn't sell that much. I think that conflict and tribalism and extremes really sell. And

It's difficult sometimes to find someone or a group of people willing to have like a nuanced, unoffensive conversation about simply different points of view and be willing to adjust your point of view because what you learned from someone else. And to realize that a lot of issues are very, very complex. They're very, they're layered. And so, um,

both things can be true. Multiple things can be true at the same time. We try to train our kids that way and tell them not to think solely in black and white, but to see a little bit of gray and at least be able to talk. But then we get to become adults and we get so entrenched in how we think that we're unable to have a conversation about something that's outside of

what we think the paradigm should be. And so, yes, you know, especially like, so when it comes to race, especially, especially when there's issues, I mean, let's, let's just get very practical right now. Let's just talk about, let's just talk about protests,

and the destruction of property and peaceful protest and how all that has got so many of us emotional and in conversations that can be very, very tough. I mean, there's two polarizing sides, but this is an example. We can all come together and say that it is both important that people be able to protest and it's great that people can peacefully protest and it can still be true

That just because you're upset about something, it doesn't give you a right to destroy someone else's property. And we can also say, but I can understand your frustration after 350, 400 years of what you felt it's been and what has proven to be oppression in many ways, why you could be so disgusted.

So there we hit so many different realities there and it's complex and it's nuanced. And that type of a conversation is really true to the situation and will lead to more understanding as opposed to blankly saying everyone out there is

is wrong for what they're doing or everyone is right for what they're doing. And there's no excuse. There's no reasons. I don't want to hear anything. They're bad people. These people are good people. You see where I'm going? So that's just one example that we've seen recently where a great conversation with a little bit of both and a little bit of ands would, I think, lead us to where we really need to and desire to go as a country. We'll have more Live in the Bream in a moment.

This is Jimmy Fallon inviting you to join me for Fox Across America, where we'll discuss every single one of the Democrats' dumb ideas. Just kidding. It's only a three-hour show. Listen live at noon Eastern or get the podcast at foxacrossamerica.com.

And we're talking to Benjamin Watson, among other things, author of Under Our Skin. And I want to make sure we get to a couple of other things before we let you go. First of all, the idea of personal responsibility. You talk about that in the book that all of us have got to take personal responsibility for our own decisions, for our own thoughts, for the way we treat other people.

You know, that weight is on all of us. It can't just be a collective idea of somebody else do something, somebody else fix this. It's not my fault. It's your fault. I mean, really, when the rubber meets the road, that is where it starts. Every single one of us searching at our own hearts and making our own better decisions and taking responsibility for maybe what we've gotten wrong. It does. It does. You know, there's a personal responsibility for your own actions. There's also a personal responsibility for your own inactions.

And so when we talk about people being silent while certain things take place, that's personal responsibility. When we talk about someone doing something, as we mentioned a few minutes ago, that is outside the scope of the prescribed norms and how we should act as citizens,

That's personal responsibility, regardless of the situation or the reason. We often take ownership of that. There are certain personal responsibilities that I talk about in the book when I talk about, you know, going all the way back to Ferguson and my emotions following Ferguson and seeing what happened there with Michael Brown and the officer and being angry because I felt like these things keep happening over and over again.

and being, you know, sad, but also being introspective personally because there are certain biases and prejudices that we all operate in on a daily basis. There's certain racist thoughts that we have

Simply because of the world that we live in. And it tells us or informs us about how we look at or treat certain people. Many of them, we're totally unaware that we even have, but some of them are very intentional. So we do need to be introspective and judge ourselves first.

very, very strictly because it's vitally important that we get this right, that we confess, that we repent of the racism or the bias or the prejudice that we hold in order to tell other people to do the same thing. So there's a bunch of different personal responsibilities that we all have to take control and have to take ownership of. And then on the larger scale, there's the responsibility to correct, I believe,

many inequities that continue to be perpetrated from generation to generation. And again, that's another both and. Going back to the both and idea, thinking, okay, it's all on the individual. That's the American way, right? It's all on the individual to pull yourself up by his own bootstraps. But Martin Luther King says, well, it's a cruel jest to say to a man who has no boots to pull himself up by his own bootstraps. And so there's a personal responsibility there

for us all to work hard, to be responsible, to live in a way that is equitable and honest and all those sorts of things. But we also collectively have to realize places and times and situations where maybe we need to correct some things that have happened in the past and are still affecting people today, both angles.

Yeah, like you said, I mean, personal responsibility can extend to making sure that other people have opportunities, that they're heard, that rights, wrongs are made right. And we just all have a role to search ourselves, I think, and be very honest. I just want to quickly close with this because you talk about pride and how that keeps all of us

from getting out of our comfort zone for admitting what part we may have played and how we can help to fix. But you talk about so much of what has gone wrong in our culture and our relationships and everywhere else is the lack of pursuing holiness.

And I know for some people are like, what? I don't know. Holiness. I mean, we're human beings. What does that mean? But it really does order the way that you see other people, the way that you see God's purpose, the way that you treat others. If you're really pursuing something much different than what the world tells us to chase after. Yeah, we're conditioned and really our pride or our personal pride.

Our humanity teaches us to chase after happiness. You know, happiness is paramount, not just in our culture, but, you know, in world culture forever. How can I get things, people, situations to serve me?

And if it's not serving me and if I'm not happy and not feeling good about the situation, well, guess what? I need to change the situation or maybe change the person or the people that are in my situation that aren't making me happy. And happiness always runs out. Happiness always has a certain time limit because happiness is an emotion. And so when it comes to this topic, how can I make things best for me?

How would that make me happy? But when we talk about holiness, holiness is difficult because holiness is, uh, it seems unattainable at times. And when you're being holy or trying to be holy, you may not always be happy, but many times you will be, and you will be joyful and you will be happy. But holiness is a call to much higher standard because what holiness is saying that we serve a God who is holy, who is loving, who is just, who is merciful, who,

but he also cannot be around anything unholy. And so we talk about holiness, we're talking about calling people, calling ourselves to a standard that is greater than anything that we could ever live by. And the truth of the matter is when it comes to race, when it comes to racism, when it comes to inequity and all those sorts of things, if our call is to holiness and our call is to godly justice, then we will always seek holiness.

and fight to treat people correctly, no matter if it makes us happy or not. No matter if we have to swallow our pride or not. No matter if we have to apologize for something or not, because our standard is not

other people and it's not how I feel about myself or the feeling that people give me. It's about meeting his standard. And so, and that's difficult. We're never going to get there. You know, the spirit has to help us every single day, you know, but, but, but that should be the standard. And so when I talk a lot about the fact that, you know, what comes to racism is a, you know, it's not necessarily a skin problem. It's a sin problem. I'm not saying that we don't need to address racism.

the practicality of racism in America and all that it means, all that it entails. It doesn't mean that we don't need to march or we don't need to create policy and legislation. It doesn't mean that we don't need to create certain opportunities or deconstruct supremacy. We need to do all those things. But we also need to understand that

The problem is sin. And the only way that that is healed or taken care of is a spiritual transformation, which leads us to, as you mentioned before, holiness being our standard. Because then when that's our standard and we're living in that way, we're mindful of that all the time, continue to renew by that. We'll take care of the other stuff because we'll have no choice because that standard will be that we'll have no choice but to change to the best of our ability to

the things that are wrong in a fallen world. Yeah. Like you said, lifelong pursuit. I think pursuit of humility and holiness right now is a great place for all of us to be. Again, Benjamin Watson, we thank you so much for your time. The book is under our skin. It's a great place to start the conversations that we need to have. And if we're not doing that already, Benjamin, thank you so much. We appreciate your time. Thank you, Shannon. Always a pleasure.

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