Deep Dive
Shownotes Transcript
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It's Live in the Bream with the host of Fox News Sunday, Shannon Bream. This week on Live in the Bream, I love the topic. I love the person who is joining us because if you've ever felt intimidated by trying to study the Bible or this big word theology, you are going to love this new book and our guest today, Lisa Harper. She is a Bible teacher. She's got a
podcast. You will see her everywhere, radio, TV, social media. She's got a Master of Theological Studies from Covenant Seminary. And I think she's still working on that doctoral dissertation. It's so smart. I can't even say it. I'm deep in the weeds, Shannon. Lisa, welcome. I'm midway through my dissertation. And so sometimes I'll just find myself going, oh, because it's a slog. But I love Jesus.
study isn't the point of theology it's really intimacy which i have man i i've got so much to learn i do too and that's kind of exciting i i mean in just such an elementary way i'll read over a verse or a passage that i've probably read dozens if not hundreds of times in my life and still be learning something new all the time and your notebook yeah let me tell you everyone about your book and then we'll talk about it oh please please
It's called A Jesus-Shaped Life: How Diving Deeper into Theology Can Transform Us and Our World with the Radical Kindness of God. So what was the impetus behind this book? A couple of things, but I think mostly I have so many friends that when I start talking about something I'm learning,
Anytime I use a multi-syllabic theological term, I can see their eyes start to roll back in their head with boredom. And I thought, how do we communicate these truisms about God in a way that people go, oh, that makes sense. Because I think all too often theology gets a bad rap for being just something pursued by academics. And theology is so much less about organization.
a system for which we can have thoughts about God. It's more about intimacy with Jesus. And so when you get things like the hypostatic union, that sounds so fancy, but you go, oh my God,
What that really means is we have a savior who's not an existential construct. He's perfectly God. He's not our homeboy, but he condescends to be accessible to us. Gosh, that is mind blowing. So I thought, let's let's deal with all these wonderful truisms, but in a way that's accessible instead of off putting or sounds elitist.
Yeah. And you have a fantastic podcast that does this. You have very meaty conversations and use words that I will have to pause and look up. But I really don't need to because you end up explaining them in a way that is very easy to grasp. And like you said, it's not about a fancy explanation. It's about what the underlying truth of it is and how it deepens understanding.
relationship with the lord and understanding how much he loves us and is striving for us um and is after us and through studying theology we get more of that so it may seem intimidating at the outset but what do you think are some of the the reasons that people hesitate when they hear these things and what's the point in the book to you know get them past that
Yes. Sorry, I keep, I wish I could see you. I keep jumping on top of you because you're so kind and I'm such a windbag. Thank you. We love your, we love your, everything you have to say. My windbagginess. You know, just even breaking down the word theology, Shannon, because I think all too often we hear that when we think academics.
But the word theology comes from two root words in the Greek. Theos refers to God. Logos refers to conversations. So at its core, theology is simply conversations about God. Now, that means everybody is a theologian because pretty much everybody, you know, has conversations, thoughts, ideas, even anger when it comes to God.
So biblically informed theology is, of course, where I'm getting my conversations about God. But I love talking to people about God, especially people who have misperception about God. They might think he's a, you know, kind of a unibrowed bully in the Old Testament, just waiting to smack people over the head with a with a big Bible if they step out of line, whereas they think of Jesus as a little more accessible. He looks like he has hair extensions. You know, he hugs lepers and go.
"Oh, let's talk about how God actually reveals himself through this love letter we call the Bible and through Holy Spirit, because that's a real binary view of God. And yet our God is a Trinitarian God." Augustine, I love all the old dead theologians, describes God as a perfect community unto himself. He said, "That's the Christian God." And when you think about even things like loneliness,
that everyone deals with. And you go, oh, my goodness, a facet of theology is our God exists in a perfect community. He created us in his image. Imago Dei is one of those theological concepts, which means that regardless of your gender or ethnicity or socioeconomic background, all of us, every single human, whether or not you believe that the Bible is true or not, has inherent dignity.
Not only that, but we were made in the image of a community God, a Trinitarian God. So even from the very beginning of redemptive narrative, God is the antidote for things like loneliness. And you go, oh, wow. So this isn't some boring academic matter just for seminarians. This is for me on my worst day. Theology means that even when I feel alone, I never actually am.
Right. And those are such everyday, real, practical, concrete moments of life. I mean, that we would learn to understand those things and have real everyday application. I think it's interesting you warn people in this book. Some of your theology may be challenged. And I think that
some folks do get worried that what they think that they understand about God won't line up with what they may find when they dig into scripture. But I guess our attitude should be, okay, well, if I have something wrong, it should be good and helpful to learn what's right. But even that can feel intimidating.
Well, sure, because I think at the end of the day, no matter how much we sing about grace, exegete grace, memorize grace, most of us still labor under that lie of I've got to do better. I've got to be better. I've got to earn the perfection of this holy God. And so grace for me is like wet soap. It's kind of hard to hang on to. And so if I've got something, I feel like, OK, I've really got this.
then I'm kind of scared that if I'm exposed to have understood it wrong, you know, somebody is going to look under the hood of my life and find me to be a fraud. That to me is what has been so unsettling in the most wonderful way. And I went back for a doctorate in my late 50s and I've been walking with Jesus for a long, long time, been in vocational ministry for a long, long time. And goodness gracious, Shannon, so much of what I thought I knew to be true about God is
I don't want to say it got dismantled, but it got poked. And instead of me being exposed as a fraud, I found myself going, oh, my goodness, he's so much bigger. He's so much better.
then I had the faith to believe in his love. It really is unconditional. So I think what he's done for me in the fear of being exposed as an ignoramus, which I am half the time, I've been accused of being a heretic. And I'm like, ah, your Greek is faulty. Heresis means an intentional divide of who God is, what his word says he is. So I'm not intentionally ever dividing the truth of God's word, but I'm wrong all the time.
And when God reveals more truth to us, it's as a redeemer. It's not as a punitive judge. As a matter of fact, all of the parameters we find in God's Word, they're always set in the context of they're promissory, therefore are good. So, you know, I always say His discipline is braided with mercy.
And I found that to be true more and more and more. The deeper I dive into God, the more in love with him I am. And some of these things, again, that can sound elitist. I go, no, more that you lean into the arms of Jesus and who God really is. Good theology does not produce hateful, smug scholars who spew stuff on social media causing division.
Good theology produces humility and gratitude. And you find yourself going, oh, my heavens, the deeper I dive into his character, the more compassion I find. Amen. I mean, I feel that way, too, that, you know, I grew up in and I've talked about this before, a church that was one
One of the churches I was in growing up was very legalistic. And so there was a lot of judging of everybody else and kind of using whatever you understood as theology sort of as a hammer to hit other people over the head with. And then when you realize, gosh, what great mercy and compassion and how Christ describes himself as gentle and lowly, you know, that you come to me for rest. I mean, he came to redeem.
not to turn his head to the fact that we needed redemption and, you know, knowing the human condition very well, but instead of coming to condemn, it was about redemption. And gosh, I'm so thankful for the grace that you talk about. We'll have more Live in the Bream in a moment.
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Again, we're talking to Lisa Harper about her newest book out May 6th, A Jesus-Shaped Life, How Diving Deeper into Theology Can Transform Us and Our World with the Radical Kindness of God. So before we get back to the book, I have another surfacy question. How in the world do you find time to write a book like this while you are also working on your doctoral dissertation? Wow.
I wish I could come up with a real pithy answer, but I carbo load and I drink lots of caffeine. And sometimes as I'm writing about the Bible, I say words that aren't in it or think it when I when I'm at the end of my rope. He's such a good God. I love that theology is can be messy. One of my favorite. I love all the dead guys, Shannon. I talk about all these dead theologians that I have platonic crushes. But Helmut...
German theologian, and he says this, and I'm paraphrasing, but he says, "If a theology doesn't work at the messy margins of life, it only works at the easy center, then it's not a good theology at all."
And so conversations about God, I'm so grateful. They include seasons when I go, oh, goodness gracious, my hair is on fire. You know, I'm tempted to cuss at my kid on the way to Christian school. I do not have enough hours in the day to get my job done. And then you go, huh?
What does peace look like today? Because he promises he'll give me peace that surpasses understanding and certainly my eye cow. And so theology is it is not an acrostic thing.
It's not for perfect people. It's for people like us, real people with real lives, real questions, real hardships who need intimacy and a real relationship with God. And so you asked a simple question, but I never want to go, oh, well, God has given me, because I think all too often as Christians, we give these pat answers and the world goes, that's not helping me because today I ache or
Or today I just I'm fried or today I'm numb. And I'm like, yes, God speaks to all of that. You don't have to curate your emotions before you bring them to the Lord. He says, bring me every thing. And that's that's part of who he is, is our creator, redeemer.
Yes. And I'm so thankful for that. Just show up with wherever you are. Like he already knows, but there's something that's so helpful for us in laying at his feet and saying, you know, I don't even, maybe I don't even want to pray. I'm cranky right now. And I don't like how things are going, but, but I know that I need to come here and ask you for help and grace and for a reset or just for comfort in your deepest, darkest moments. I don't even know what to say. Sometimes there've been times where,
I just pray over and over, Lord, help me. Lord, help me. Help me. That's it. You know, and he will. Yeah. Sometimes those simple prayers for me have been the most profound. One of the concepts we talk about in the book is big word theodicy. And all that means is our God really is perfectly good. And yet he.
Evil does exist in the world that we live in. We live in a fallen world. And so, you know, one of the age old questions is, well, if he's really such a good God, then why does my life look like this? Or why do you see political discord and division? Or why do you see kids who are starving in third world countries or why? And then there's all these questions. And I'm like, you have such a myopic view of God because you're viewing God through time and space as we know it.
as created. Our God is bigger and he is better than the human comprehension, but that is a conundrum of, well, if he is good, then why do bad things happen? And I think those are things we bring all of that to the Lord. And you find where even in the book of Job, you know, true story, real guy was a really rough stuff. And I love that you see Job's honesty. It says when he loses everything,
He shaves his head. He tears his clothes. So he's not pretending. He's not using filters on social media. He says, I ache and I don't understand this. And then in the very same Hebrew phraseology, it says he worshiped.
So you can have a broken heart and raise your hands at the same time. There are no—if somebody gives you a pat answer about God when you're in a hard place, that's not good theology. That's religion. That's not good theology. I love where when Paul says, in this world, we will grieve and we will groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for our adoption of sons and daughters.
And then later on, he says, and ultimately, ultimately, everything will work out for our good and for his glory. But all too often, we kind of cut and paste. We just get this Instacart of that whole message and go to people who are in rough places. Oh, well, everything will work out for the good. And I'm like, oh, don't do that. Don't cut and paste something that's bigger than that and make theology seem simplistic. It's not simplistic. It's messy. It's not an acrostic message.
But he is a real God. And the deeper you dive into who he is through the way he's revealed himself to us, he is good. And ultimately, his boundary lines fall in pleasant places. But we are so stinking human and our minds are finite. And we can't get all that. Sometimes for me, faith is exactly the way you described it. It's pretty much collapsing at his feet and going away.
All right. I believe that you're a good God. My life is anything but right now. I just need your presence. Sometimes it's that simple. And I love that you say we can't give people pat answers like, I know you're struggling right now, but hang in there. Romans 8 says,
It says all things work together. They do, but it's when we're really suffering. Yeah, ultimately, but not maybe in the way that we would like. And I love that you point out all the time, Christ really did take on full human form. So he knows what it's like to be exhausted, to be disappointed. You can see that in scripture. I mean, we know that. Can I confess something? When you said the fancy words,
Yes. When you said the fancy word, theodicy, you know where my brain went? Adventures in Odyssey. If you know, you know people. I was like, yeah, I've got some things to learn. I've got some things to learn. I got in trouble on Adventures in Odyssey because they- No, you didn't. Yes. They would bring us in to use our voices. You know, this was way back in the day when I had tight skin and had metabolism. And I said stupid. Like I was just being silly. I said, oh, that's stupid. Like Lisa-
There's millions of kids who listen to this. You can't say stupid. I was like, but it was in one of those tracks with all these other voices. And so when I hear the actual splotches on my neck of, oh, I wounded all those kids saying it, saying a word that's not in the Bible. Yeah. And yet you've been redeemed.
- You have been redeemed to guide us all with your wonderful teaching. - All of my mistakes are under the canopy of grace. You know, what you've really said better than I can say, Shannon, is the accessibility of our God. He condescends to be knowable. He is a perfect, holy, transcendent God.
But his condescension, I know usually that's in a pejorative sense, but the way that God stoops to us. I was at an event recently and there was a woman who stood up in need of prayer and she started, she was crying pretty hard, pretty big group. And, you know, sometimes in first world Christian culture seems to be more about our appearance than our authenticity. And I thought, man, that chick is standing up saying I need prayer. She said she was lonely.
And I thought, I don't have a lot that I bring to the table, but I can hug like a boss. And so I thought, I'm just going to be lying for that woman. I'm just going to hug her. There's you. She shouldn't be standing there sobbing by herself. And so I'm I'm hugging this woman. Well, the room was really tight. And so there was a woman praying and I thought she'll pray for a couple of minutes. I'll hug her.
you know, well, this woman just prays and prays and prays. It was like the never ending prayer. It was like the 17 minute prayer. Well, the room was so tight. The woman I was hugging couldn't back up and I couldn't back up because I was back up against the stage. And so at some point it got really amusing. It was this intimacy where our sweat was commingling. You know, I thought this was a little more intimate than I planned for it to be. But
I kind of leaned my head back because I thought I just want to kind of use a little levity to, you know, let her know I'm sorry this embrace was not intended to be this long or this intimate. And she said, I'm sorry. And I said, oh, no, no, no, no. That's what we're supposed to do as Christ followers. We're supposed to be able to weep with his weep and rejoice and belly laugh. No, this is real community. And she goes, no, I'm sorry. I got snot in your hair. Oh, wow.
And I was so close together. I had some, I'll just call it residue of her heartache in my hair. I was the next speaker and I couldn't go back. So there I am with just this, you know, residue of her heartache in my hair. And that night I was of course washing my hair. I was taking a shower and I just kind of thought, Oh my goodness.
I've been to, I don't know, 60 or 70 conferences this year. I've been on the road 130, 40 days in vocational ministry. That is the holiest thing I've had the under privilege of being involved in is to be so close to another image bearer.
that I got the residue of her heartache in my hair. And immediately I thought that's the hypostatic union. It sounds fancy, but we have a savior who's not far away. Jesus stooped so low to be like us, to save us, that he got the residue of our heartache in
in his hair and on his hands and on the cross. And I thought, gosh, we've got to be careful as Christians in using fancy language that sometimes makes us seem smart or mature. And we've missed the miracle. The miracle is we have a Jesus who is accessible and he doesn't turn up his nose when we get snot in his hair. What a good God. What a good God.
Amen. And we can be that to others. I mean, call to be the hands and feet. That's a beautiful thing. And also a great story. You're a great storyteller. And people will know that if they've read your material or if they check out your brand new book, A Jesus-Shaped Life, How Diving Deeper into Theology Can Transform Us and Our World with the Radical Kindness of God.
Lisa Harper, thank you for everything that you are, my friend and teacher to the nations and for all that you write and put into the world. Let's say one more thing and just be windbagging for one more minute. Yes. Shannon, you are shaped like Jesus. I'm so grateful when I get to rub shoulders with you for as bright as you are in the platform that God has given you. You reek humility. You are, you're, you're a good egg.
You are so kind. Thank you so much. And listen, can we get together and share some fried macaroni and cheese balls again? I'm all and pimento cheese balls. I'm all about it. God bless you. And God bless this new book out May 6. Lisa Harper, thank you for joining us on Live in the Bream. Thank you so much. It was an honor. Listen ad free with the Fox News podcast plus subscription on Apple podcasts and Amazon Prime members can listen to this show ad free on the Amazon Music app.
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