The VP of the VP
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Welcome to this episode of the Campaign Managers on this incredibly newsy week. I'm Kellyanne Conway. And I'm David Plouffe. Well, David, to say it's been another week filled with news would be the biggest understatement possible. Since our last episode just a week ago, we've had President Trump accept the nomination for the third consecutive time in what even his most virulent critics and naysayers deem as a very successful convention in Milwaukee, followed by

President Biden dropping from the race, immediately endorsing Vice President Harris, who now looks like she's got enough delegates to claim the nomination without much competition, raising tons of money. And to top it all off, the director of the Secret Service has resigned. Kimberly Cheadle following, obviously, breaches and failure of security around former President Trump at that Butler, Pennsylvania rally where he came within an inch of his life, God forbid.

And so on this news week, I just wanted to start out and say we've got Kamala Harris as the standard bearer, almost a Democratic nominee, not quite officially yet. David Plouffe, tell me how in the world those of us who listen to the same people say there's no Russia collusion, Hunter Biden's laptop is not real, this, that, and the other, Joe Biden is fine, nothing to see here, he's a trapeze artist, triathlete, behind the scenes person.

Donald Trump's a threat to democracy. We are for democracy. We are for democracy. How do you subvert democracy? And without a truly democratic process, even within your own Democratic Party, where Joe Biden had over 90 percent of the delegates locked up, how in the world do you just move up his number two to number one with nary an objection?

Well, first, I agree that the convention, the Republican convention, before we talk about the Democratic side, was better produced and more thematic than 16 and 20. But I think the worst part of the convention was the most important part, which was Trump's speech. And the research I've seen with voters confirms that. You know, I think maybe the speech as written would have been fine. He like doubled the length and had all of his normal, I think, attacks and attacks.

And he promised a lot of unity. And that wasn't certainly the middle and end of the speech. So that was curious to me because I agree that there was it was a stronger convention, certainly than the last two. I think as it relates to this, listen, Joe Biden, we didn't really have a primary. Joe Biden won every state going away. And so at the end of the day, he made a decision very late. I wish he had made it earlier, but he made a decision not to to seek the nomination. And

The primaries are over, so it's up to delegates. And I think enough delegates have now expressed their support for Kamala Harris that she'll be the nominee. So I don't think I just care about the general election, really, in terms of like what affects voter behavior. I don't think the fact that Kamala Harris is our nominee after Joe Biden won primaries is going to affect a single vote. I think the challenge for Kamala Harris is there's 101 days left as you and I are talking. That's a lot of time to, you know, reintroduce yourself to the country, in some cases, introduce yourself to the country.

what you want to get done in the next four years, how that contrast to Donald Trump. And obviously, we know that the Trump attacks will be vicious and intense. Some of them will be effective, some of them won't, but you got to figure out which of those hurt you. So

I, as a campaign practitioner, I'm as a Democrat, first of all, excited that we have a new candidate. I think it gives us a fighting chance to win, but no one should underestimate the challenge here, which is it's hard enough to run a presidential campaign. You know that, Kellyanne, when you've had a lot of time to prepare for it and kind of game out everything. It's super hard when you're just thrown into the deep end like this and she's got to pick a VP. So, you know, at the end of the day,

Listen, on the democracy issue, the fact that Donald Trump is still saying he may not abide by election results when Kamala Harris, I'm sure, will say, hey,

If he gets more votes in the Electoral College, I'll concede and he's the president and we'll help him in his transition. I think that still matters to voters. Trump, by the way, has softened his language a little bit on that. But, you know, J.D. Vance is not. So that'll be interesting. Listen, every time you and I talk, it seems like the last two months it's been like, wow, what a crazy week. You know, they keep on coming, you know. And so it's really I think the word unprecedented is used too much. But this is interesting.

you know, we just had an assassination attempt two weeks ago. Now we have, you know, a new Democratic candidate just weeks before the convention, really just 60 or 70 days before people start voting earlier by mail. So I think Kamala Harris's first rally is today. You and I are talking on Tuesday. It's in Wisconsin. So, you know, for me, it's what's going to be fascinating to watch. What's different from what Joe Biden was saying. Some of that will be presentation. Some of that will be images, but a lot of it's going to be the content. And

And then, you know, how do you make up ground? Because, you know, I don't think any of us could say for certain where the race will be two weeks from now. My suspicion is Kamala Harris will narrow that gap you and I have talked a lot about where she'll probably be getting more of the young vote and voters of color than Joe Biden did. But I still think Donald Trump's going to have a lead.

And so, you know, if you're Kamala Harris and her campaign, that's your North Star, which is you have to understand where you are and what is required to overtake Donald Trump. And on the Trump side, you know, I think the question there is how does he he maintain the position he's got right now? Because he is a couple of points stronger than he was in 16 and 20. And so you've got to pull that back. I was fascinated, by the way. Last thing I'll say is.

Trump, the first debate with Biden, you know, he basically said, yeah, I'll do it. I'll do CNN. No problem. And it worked out for him. You know, he's already trying to back out of the debate he agreed to on September 10th on ABC saying he'll only do it on Fox News. I think Kamala Harris is a skillful enough person.

to prosecute that case and make Trump pay a price if he doesn't do it. You and I both agree debates are good. I hope the VP candidates debate. I hope Harris and Trump debate not just once but multiple times. I quite frankly don't care where the rest of them are. Like they agreed to debate on ABC. That's where it should be. Maybe there should be a debate on Fox, maybe on MSNBC. Maybe they should co-host.

We'll see. And of course, you guys did the switcheroo. That doesn't matter. He agreed to debate. He should do it. The Democrat Party runs things, capital D Democrat Party, but that's not the way democracy works. And he did a switcheroo. This is Kamala Harris is somebody who's needed everybody's help and support.

particularly the men in her life, her entire career. And this was no different. Joe Biden needed to step aside for her to ever have a shot. And how do we know this? Well, we know this because she ran for president. This is not her first presidential campaign. It's her second. The first one was as disastrous as the Joe Biden debate of June 27th. She ran on her own, announced in 2019 that

in Oakland, California to a roaring crowd of about 12,000. As I recall, the news report said she raised a ton of money, David. She was high in the polls. She got these huge endorsements and then the voters got a look-see. They were listening to her. And then she'd be in these small groups and people would say, is that the same person I just saw on the stage? And she is really the only person or the most prominent candidate to start in like the top tier of

and lose that and drop out of the race before she won a single delegate. I need to repeat that. Kamala Harris won as many delegates in the Democratic primary as David Plouffe and Kellyanne Conway in 2019 when she dropped out, which is zero, a big fat zero.

That was a terrible campaign. The media poo-pooed it after they were in love with her and shopping for technicolor coats with her and everything. Embarrassing story with two female CNN reporters. She never get that close to your subject. She'd never be that friendly and that fawning. But we saw her in action and the Democrats didn't want her. Why in the world did the rest of us get stuck with her? So this is her second campaign. I don't blame her at all.

Connell Harris for wanting to keep the Biden apparatus. He's got 500 campaign staffers already in Wilmington, Delaware. She's also not new in that she's the second part of the Biden-Harris administration, and she's been the border czar. She willingly took that title even though her husband whined and complained about it after the fact, because that's what feminism allows. Your husband whines about what's in your portfolio.

And what has she done on the border? This is the number one or number two issue in every swing state poll and national poll for a reason. People see it in their own backyards and saying, what are we doing? Why are there millions of people here that weren't here before? Why has Kamala Harris...

talked more about the fake, false, gaslit story about Border Patrol agents whipping migrants, which never happened. Big lie. She talked more about that damn lie than she ever did about babies drowning in the Rio Grande River or people coming here and being raped on the way. They have to give pregnancy tests to kids younger than our kids.

I mean, that's a disgrace. She's done a terrible job on the border. She went to McAllen, Texas. It's not even near the border. She spent as much time in McAllen, Texas, her first visit to the border. I, as a staffer, has been to the border more than she has. She spent as much time there as you spend in the Chick-fil-A or McDonald's drive-thru. And so I think she's got to answer for all this. I wouldn't even attack her all day long on the way she speaks, which is terrible, her thin schedule, all of this. I would just let people see what she has said.

Policy-wise, these were radical ideas, right?

In 2020, Tulsi Gabbard called her up. He put a judge, Joe Biden. They all called her out on her radical ideas from the debate stage. And it was too radical for the Democratic electorate. So I think she's got to mount the climb. And I'm not surprised. I'm not surprised the rumors that she wants to hire David Plouffe. I can understand why we see that. You can answer or not answer. But we're talking on a Tuesday, all weekend long, all yesterday and all today, David Plouffe, lots of stories about Kamala Harris's team wanted to bring you on board.

Well, I would just say that, like you, I have spent a lot of time, even when we're officially retired from politics, helping candidates that we believe in and giving whatever advice is worthwhile. And, you know, I think a lot of Democrats are evaluating what they can do. I have no news to report here, but obviously I will provide whatever help I can, whether that's in a more formal role or behind the scenes. I will say as geographic point of order, I've been to McAllen. McAllen's very close to the border. That's less important than this. I hope that the new administration

unfortunately, you know, afraid to debate Donald Trump shows up because I can't wait to them to have an exchange about the border. I think Kamala Harris will say, you know, we would have had a border deal. By the way, crossings are way down because of action we took. We would have had a border deal, more money for, you know, technology to monitor the border, a lot more border agents, a lot more judges. So processing time is higher. And Republican senators are

up the deal, some of the most conservative Republican senators, and Trump pulled the rug out and said very plainly, it'll help Joe Biden, so I don't want you to do it. So that sort of narcissism is not going to solve the problem. I will say this, that I

I don't think a single vote will be cast based on Kamala Harris's performance in the 2020 primary. She has to perform better this time for sure. But listen, history, Donald Trump just lost his reelection in 2020. Barack Obama lost to Bobby Rush in a congressional race of all things. Bill Clinton was defeated for governor. George H.W. Bush lost. Like most of our presidents, I think George W. Bush is the only really modern exception who didn't lose a race. But I think I'm curious for your perspective, because I've always been...

it's really important in politics, particularly when there's a switch like this. Doesn't happen all the time, but sometimes it does. Maybe an unexpected person wins a primary or there's a death. But just like a sports team, like the team that you play this week,

Sure. There's a lot there, Dave, and I think it's all important and timely.

First, I believe that the Trump 2024 campaign has built an infrastructure that's sturdy enough to withstand a change in who the Democratic nominee is. It was not always out of the question that it wouldn't be Joe Biden. But when you are attacking Joe Biden's

policies, you're really attacking Joe Biden and Kamala Harris's policies. And frankly, his cabinet and his party. Why? Because they basically all vote in lockstep with him. Look at all these Democratic Senate candidates trying to distance themselves from Joe Biden. They won't even show up with him when he comes to their states. How embarrassing for him, but how mean of them, how very rude and petty of them to not stand with the leader of their party and their president at the time.

Having said that, Kamala Harris is part, in fact, the second part of the Biden-Harris administration. She does pull worse against Donald Trump.

than did Joe Biden before she was a candidate. There's a lot of reluctance to elevate her because of her, her uneven performances in the media, her lack of accomplishments in the portfolio, the staff defections. And then Axios came out with an article this week, quote, Biden's doubts about Harris's chances delayed his exit. And it recalls this dinner in April of 2022 at my neighbor in Washington, D.C., David and Catherine Bradley's house, where she was going to speak, a role I've had at their dinners,

And they did like this whole mock dinner ahead of time because they were so nervous about what she might say at a private dinner at someone's house. But I say this because I think all of that is true, that cackling Kamala, the leftist policies that she espoused as a candidate in 2020. But it's also true that when the dynamics of a campaign change and you get a fresh new candidate, many voters out there take a fresh new look at the race.

Maybe some young people who were uninspired to take a look at the race, maybe some disaffected Democrats, maybe some independents. They take a fresh look at the race. And I still think this is Donald Trump's campaign to lose. I still think he's the prohibitive front runner here. But I do hope that the Trump campaign recognizes that as much as things are the same through Kamala Harris, to some voters, things will look and feel, at least in the short term, very different.

And the way you respond in that window is critical. Yes, it matters that she's a female. Yes, it matters that she's a female of color. Let her and her proponents get all wrapped up in that. But you have to be careful to point out your policy differences, that she has been ineffective at her job, whether as a senator or vice president, more so than pointing out things that people can see. Because as I like to say, the art of politics is tell people what they can't see, not what they can.

But I think you don't have to tread lightly. You have to tread smartly and strategically. And look, there are a couple of people high up in the campaign who love to pop in these blind quotes, talking in the media all day about this, that, and the other. They love to be on Twitter, attacking folks all day long. I don't think that's going to be enough with Kamala Harris. It would not have been enough with Hillary Clinton. That was a serious former Secretary of State, former First Lady of Arkansas in the nation, former Senator from New York.

where the electorate and then she remains the second most popular person in a two-person household. Must be rough every morning to wake up there. But at the same time, as President Trump would acknowledge, she was a serious player who was running for president for her second time. And I, as a female campaign manager, took that very seriously, but tried to work her vulnerabilities out.

And Donald Trump's strengths and Hillary Clinton's weakness, try to knit them together, not isolate them, but knit them together and make sure people are seeing them on your terms through your language at the same time. But let me say this. I think the reason that, you know, Joe Biden took a while to come to this decision wasn't because lack of confidence in Kamala Harris. I think it was he really wrestled with it. And listen, I, you know, you can go back to last year and

say maybe he shouldn't have run at all. But, you know, I think after the debate, it took him a while to get to the point, I think largely because he beat Trump last time, thinks he could beat him again. I think he made the right decision. So I think just a couple of things and then we'll get to our guest. I'd say one, that we know a few things about the race that I think you would agree with. One, a lot of Americans, more than 50 percent of Americans, well over 50 percent, were

were dissatisfied that Trump and Biden were their only choice. So I think some of those people now are going to tune in with a little more interest. Kamala Harris's job is to convert them to voters for her. But I think that's an opportunity. You know, we still have every poll suggests well over well over 50 percent of Americans do not think Donald Trump's fit to serve. And I think she can tap into that. And then I think the one thing she can do and she has to do it. So you and I can say about what should be done. What matters is, can you do it?

is has to paint a more compelling picture of what she would do in the next four years and contrast that with Trump. Because the truth is there's a lot of people out there, more than enough to win this election, who are concerned about the return of Donald Trump. Some of that's character, some of that's judgment, some of that's policy. So I think right now she's behind Trump. We'll see in the next week to 10 days, you know, how the race sorts out. But I think there are kernels there of opportunity that she has to seize.

And, you know, I think a lot of people are going to be interested in her first interview, her first town hall, if Trump actually shows up to the debate, the first debate. And she'll have an opportunity to see if she can meet the moment or not. But I think those dynamics are important. I mean, obviously, Democrats are excited. You'd see that by the fundraising. I think over 50,000 people have signed up to volunteer in the battleground states. I always like to see that. But I think there's also a sense even in the middle of the electorate of relief. Now, that doesn't mean they've decided to vote for Kamala Harris yet.

But I think they're like, okay, well, at least we don't have that matchup I was dreading. So we'll, you know, we'll see. I want to kick the tires on her. So I think it's going to be a really interesting couple of weeks. A, I think what you laid out, I don't agree with what you said about Kamala Harris, but you, I think, had more grasp of what's required here. I think the Trump campaign, or at least some Trump voices have not been, I think, super effective in how they've dealt with this shift. So we'll see how that changes. So I'll be watching carefully, like,

Like, how does the Trump campaign embrace and adjust to this new reality? As you laid out, you have to do that in politics. And then can Kamala Harris have a good couple of weeks here so that she's got an opportunity heading into the convention to get this race back to the dead heat that it was, you know, a few months ago? So it'd be fascinating. Well, listen, Kelly, and I know we're both excited to talk to our guest today.

today. Alyssa Mastromonaco, fellow podcast host. She co-hosts the podcast Hysteria on Crooked Media. She was my colleague in both the Obama presidential campaign back in 07 and 08. She served in the White House as a deputy White House chief of staff for operations. She's gone on to be an executive in a couple of media companies. She now is the president of George Stephanopoulos, is an Allie Wentworth's production company, Bed by Eight. She's a tremendous talent, and I think someone will learn a lot from. So we're excited to have a conversation with Alyssa Mastromonaco.

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Alyssa Mastermonica, welcome to the Campaign Managers Podcast. David Plouffe, Kellyanne, thank you so much for having me. It's a real pleasure. Thanks so much for joining us. Very curious to hear your take on what seems to be news every minute. Every minute. So Alyssa, there's so much we want to talk to you about.

If I could, though, I'll start by asking you to put on your old director of scheduling and advance hat. I'm just curious, as you look at, I guess Kamala Harris has having her first rally today in Wisconsin. I mean, as we look at the next couple of weeks, then I guess through Election Day, like, what do you think will change, should change, visuals, message, number of events? Like, what should we expect?

I mean, if I am on the Harris campaign, I am leaving my day job behind. Like there is no time for messing around. I mean, this is this is the whole point of Joe Biden stepping aside, right? Like he's got it covered. She should be out on the campaign trail.

I mean, I want to see banners. I want to see new placards. I mean, it's an interesting thing. They unfortunately have to piss away a lot of money right now doing Harris for president signs when in a week, hopefully it's going to be Harris and, you know, plus plus signs. But, you know, right now she has largely been doing,

a lot of sort of B market events. Joe Biden's been doing sort of the bigger battleground state type events when he has been out campaigning. So, I mean, I want to see the galvanization of the past couple of days, $100 million raised in 30 some hours, 60% of which are new donations. That is all great.

It's the first couple of days that's going to fade. And so how are they showing the momentum going forward? I mean, I'm hoping that the Milwaukee event is a huge rally with lots of energy, super well done. I mean, this is really the first time people are seeing, we'll see her on stage in the role for which she is now campaigning, right, for president. So, yeah.

Also, Plouffe, you know, I want to see some old school campaign schedules, and maybe it's because I'm old school, but I want to see rallies. I want to see some off the record stops. I want to see her talking with, which of course is always harder, but she and Donald Trump sort of suffer the same issue, which is that they have lots of Secret Service issues.

And protection now because they're general election or she's the presumptive, but general election candidates. So talking to people and getting close to them, I want to see town halls. No one's done town halls in like forever. And I think that in a world where

The general population is pretty skeptical of the media from left to right. I think the best way to kind of get your unfiltered message across is by doing something like town halls. And, and also, and I mean, I'm sure anyone who's like modern and listening to this is going to think I'm ridiculous, but I would be doing so much local radio. Like again, people don't trust cable news. They don't trust what they're reading in the papers, but people do still trust local media. And again,

You know, right now, I think over 80 percent of Americans listen to terrestrial AM FM radio every week, which is like two hundred and ninety million people. So I think that there is a lot of sort of worms. I view campaigning like like that. She really needs to needs to be doing. I agree with that completely. I think it's good advice. I just like to back up a couple of seconds. And thank you again for joining us, Alyssa.

So David and I, the last time we had a podcast drop about a week ago, we since have had President Trump accept the Republican nomination. We since have had President Biden drop out of the race, drop out of the presidency, but withdraw himself as the Democratic nominee.

really just a month before his convention, put his full force and weight behind his vice president Kamala Harris. Others have followed suit. So just put a level set. I think we're diving into that's what we all do. But I wanted to ask you a couple of questions to dig into what you said. First of all, I totally agree about worms. I totally agree about being old fashioned. For me, it comes with being old and old fashioned. I think there's no substitute for signs in the yard, stickers on your bumper, you

really like glad handing people, et cetera, doing the rope line, the town halls. I like to say, and I'd like to remind everybody here, since you're giving the advice to Kamala Harris,

that when Trump was running in 2016, before we'd go out to a rally and the mainstream media was sort of in their media corral taking bets on how long will it take him to say fake news or enemy of the people or whatever it was he was saying, what they should have noticed was we were backstage where he was doing a local print interview, local radio interview, and a local TV interview.

And why are those important? They're important for all the obvious reasons and the very smart reasons you just pointed out, which is that that's where the penetration is. People are already trusting local news for weather, for crime reports, what to do with the kids this weekend, and so on and so forth, traffic. And so that, but another reason is it's free of charge. And with very, very few exceptions, I have found for both Republicans and Democrats, and this is new for Republicans,

the local media will be much more fair in their coverage. So for example, the headline will say, "Trump came to town," or, you know, "Harris to Harrisburg, vote for me." It won't be like, "Oh my God, he took the wings off of the butterflies and the locals came." So there is some, I believe, both granularity but also heft in these because they last for a while.

I do want to back up, though. I'm a little curious and somewhat disturbed that we would look at Vice President Harris as new or as in her role for the first time. One presumes, one hopes that.

hopes that if she had been vice president for three and a half years, a heartbeat away from Joe Biden's heartbeat, he has been prepared for the job or that we've seen her in that role. I think the big issue for lots of people is we haven't seen her in a role. If you just look at her public schedule, it's been thin at best. Sometimes it's been totally empty. There are plenty of weekends where she's got nothing going on except the trip to Nevada, which is really to go home to California. I don't know why she hasn't done more to prepare her for this moment.

I don't know why she hasn't given some of those speeches. You said she's been in B cities or B events. Why hasn't she gone and given those big speeches? Why have they sort of stopped her from traveling as much abroad as I think most vice presidents do at this stage?

Why haven't we heard her out there pushing Bidenomics or talk about how the Afghanistan withdrawal was super smart? I'm just very curious about that. These aren't criticisms. I'm curious as to if you think you're ever going to face this moment again and you've been criticized by members of your own party, by Democrats and media for the failure of your first campaign.

She came out, she had like 12,000 people in Oakland, huge rollout, big endorsements, big money raised. She was in the top tier of candidates. She's actually the only one who was in the top tier to ever drop from it. And it's zero delegates. So we know when she was on her own the first time, it didn't go well. So I'm wondering why, you know, how do you explain all these staffers saying these jobs that the three of us had in the White House, Alyssa, all these Vice President Harris and Senator Harris staffers saying doesn't want to do the work.

Gets mad at us. Doesn't prepare. I read a quote again today. It was pretty rough. So I just try to square all this together so that I know it's all pomp and circumstance right now. How smart and honest of you to say these are the best couple days because all the money's coming in and everything. But how do I square all this together? Like, where has she been? What is she in charge of? What can she do? This has been Biden-Harris. It's not just Biden. No.

No, you're absolutely right. But I think that in terms of how people perceive her and how a campaign uses its resources, you know, I can't recall that many things I remember Mike Pence doing that were bigger than Trump. Do you know what I mean? And so I think that in the White House, and I think I guess I'm a...

Maybe I'm a shitty person or a good person to talk about this, but I was in charge of resources a lot. Like, where is Air Force One? Where is Air Force Two? How much Secret Service do you actually have and where can it go? And so I would say that every campaign and the White House are going to prioritize top of the ticket. And I think that for the past while, especially because of like the media's fixation on the

what is Biden going to do today? Is he fit? Can he do it? And I'm not saying that was right or wrong, but I'm saying that it was, but it was. So I think that she has been the

you know, unsung hero, you know, the warrior that no one was really paying attention to. And, and that my point is now people are paying attention. And so now you have to be firing on all cylinders. Well, let me ask you a list because this is not unique. I mean, whether it was Al Gore, George H.W. Bush, vice presidents have found through their research and their polling that they're less well known than people might think.

So that's going to be and you and I listen, the Barack Obama Hillary Clinton campaign back in 07 08 was a global phenomenon. Barack Obama had 100 percent name ID. And what we found heading into the general election is the voters that will determine the election needed to be introduced to him because they weren't paying attention. Right.

So I think she's only got 101 days. Some of that's bio, some of that's record. That's what she wants to do as president. But what are your thoughts? Because we had to do this together. Like we went to Kansas and, you know, we, we obviously talked a lot about his grandparents. What can they do over the next couple of weeks, which is maybe all they have, maybe they have four weeks to kind of make sure that the voters that will decide this election understand her background, you know, that she was a prosecutor. They,

Then you also have to say my agenda, how that differs with Trump. It's a lot to get done. But what are your thoughts? You know, some of that is the types of events you do. Of course, some of it's the speeches. But what can you do to kind of maximize your ability to make sure that really sinks in?

Well, I do think that the local media is a huge component of it because right now I just think that people, that Americans are skeptical of all politicians and she needs to convince them. And a lot of people don't know her backstory. Like people may know what she has or hasn't done as vice president, but they don't understand a lot that comes before that. So, I mean, I just think that, you know, she's Harris and her team have always been very good at social media and,

social media will only take you so far. Young people have an idea. I mean, I'm not going to lie to you too. I had to Google a lot of things I've been seeing. I'm like, I didn't know what Pratt was. I didn't know what all these things people were talking about. And I'm pretty informed, but they need my vote. And so that is not, that's not the stuff that's going to appeal to, I think suburban women that need to get out and vote. So I think that they want to see,

her look, it's like the horrible thing that all politicians face who want to run for the highest land in the office. You have to thread the most difficult needle. You have to be relatable. You have to have people want to have a beer with you. You have to show them that you can take the 3 a.m. phone call. And so I think it's a combination of, you know, some good ads, frankly, that help introduce her to people and remind them of what she's done.

I think it's a lot of, you know, I think that between Joe Biden and Donald Trump, people haven't been doing a lot of interviews. There haven't been press conferences. I think people want to be able to see that she can handle everything that's coming at her. I do think that that is a lot of just being like,

I mean, you know, Plouffe, when things went south on the Obama campaign, the only thing you can do sometimes is just put the candidate out and show that they can take it. And I think that that's a lot of what the next 100 days are for. She's also going to have a really big moment that she'll be judged on, which is who does she pick to be vice president?

I think that who she picks will speak volumes and will show also how quickly she picks a vice president. You know, in my opinion, the sooner the better because it shows a decisiveness. And, you know, I was heartened to see that on Sunday when Biden dropped out, she clearly had 100 phone calls ready to go. She had the endorsement of 50 state chairs. I don't think that's a small thing. So I think it's showing everyone that she is as prepared as she needs to be.

So, Alyssa, I'd like to dig into that a little bit because I think you raised some really excellent and timely points in your analysis. One is one and a half hours, 90 short minutes before Joe Biden dropped out, the Democratic Party chairs in the seven swing states left.

sent a joint letter endorsing, not endorsing Joe Biden, but showing their support for Joe Biden. I think they did that based on Joe Biden and the advisor, General Malley Dillon, is dispatched to Morning Joe on Friday, insisting he's staying in. Anita Dunn is sending texts to the media, get good night's sleep, he's in. Cedric Richmond, I mean, looks particularly foolish for going on Face the Nation an hour or two before Biden drops out, saying he is the candidate on

A, why put your people out there so far and be lying to them all along? I don't think this is the kind of thing to surprise those closest, nearest and dearest to you. But I think more importantly for Vice President Harris, can you point to, can you tell our listeners the one or two times you've been most impressed with her in any of the forums that you just mentioned?

It's important to do town halls. It's important to do rallies. It's important to do local. Let's just talk about media interviews. Which ones do you think were great? Because we have a never ending stream that lots of Democrats have been rolling their eyes about for quite a while.

of Kamala Harris, just, you know, butchering basic sentences, not really being able to read the teleprompter. I'm not being insulting and partisan here. I'm asking you a serious question. We'll get to Donald Trump in a minute. Don't worry, Alyssa. Alyssa, you're giving your, yes, because nobody ever talks about Donald Trump. Well, we're going to Kellyanne because he's a complete disaster right now. But yes, go ahead. You're giving her great advice.

But can you show us an example or two where you think she was really bringing her A game? So I would say, Kellyanne, that my point in saying she should do these things is that I don't have that many examples in those forums. Thank you. Okay. But I would say that, for example, if you go back and look at her work as a senator when she was in hearings, when she was acting as a prosecutor, I mean, you can say, you can roll your eyes.

I memorize the top of her head. I always like to say she amazing. I'm reading what other people wrote. I'll show you the clips. She, I'm sure you can, but I am just saying that me, you asked me a question and I'm saying that my, when I am thinking of her and how I would like to see her as in, in,

front of Americans for a, you know, for them to see more of what I think she is very capable of, you know, a lot of her in the judiciary committee, I think is incredibly impressive. Her speech, as you mentioned, when she came out of the gate in 2018, I think it was at this point, 2019 was incredible. And so I think my point is that she has,

an incredible wealth of potential, but she needs to show the American people in the forums where they're used to consuming, you know, that sort of media. Well, we'll have a good sense today. I actually have seen some of the coverage. You know, she's been in Wisconsin and in Michigan and Pennsylvania doing health care events and economic events recently. Haven't gotten as much attention as the VP never does. They're kind of off Broadway. That's just the way it is. Mike Pence was, Joe Biden was when he was our VP, Elizabeth.

I'm curious because when we ran both in eight, which by the way, was a very close race until it broke open. 12 was close the whole way. Kellyanne, you were involved in a very close race in 16. I am struck, and this is pre the assassination attempt.

Because you mentioned in 16, Trump was hustling out there. You know, he was doing multiple events a day. And we should tell everybody, like when a presidential candidate is they're doing Kelly and you mentioned as a list talk about to they're on stage three or four or five times a day, sometimes doing events. They're flying all over time zones. They're doing interviews. And a lot of them, they're making phone calls like they're super busy.

But Trump's really been fairly lackadaisical. And I'm just curious because obviously he had a lead against Biden. We'll see where this race settles out in the next couple of weeks. It may be that he still has a lead, although I think it might be a little bit narrowed. We'll see.

But, and you know, Kellyanne, you've pointed out that Romney, after the first debate in previous episodes where we struggled and Romney really excelled, he didn't take full advantage of that. So it doesn't seem to me like, I think when you are ahead or you have tailwinds, you got to press the advantage. And I'm surprised that Trump isn't doing more out there. And that's really been for the last couple of months. So Kellyanne, you may have views on that, but Alyssa, I'd be curious how you assess that because one of the things you and I did in the White House is studied every single presidential campaign and their schedule.

to really get a sense of when people are doing smart things, when they weren't doing smart things.

And obviously motion and to keep it all legal and to keep it all legal and motions, not progress. But I still happen to believe that like travel to battleground states and we're running out of time. People are going to be voting before we know it. So every day you're not in three or four states, you miss something. And so I'd be curious just your your thought as you've looked at what Trump's been doing. And quite frankly, less from a message standpoint, although you're anything you have to say, that would be great. Just how they're going about this from like a scheduling intensity standpoint.

I mean, I would say that Trump's intensity was probably matching Biden's intensity. And if you don't have to, again, from like a resources standpoint, if you do not have to be out there doing five events a day because the other person is out there doing five events a day, you're probably not going to. And also, I would be interested in, Kelly, and I'd be interested in your point on this.

I actually don't know how much Trump was doing because I'm not sure how much people were covering the events that they were both doing. So, I mean, I think that if Trump or Biden had been doing town halls, that actually would have gotten more media attention than just rallies that are pretty straight stump speeches. That's actually why I think Vice President Harris should be out there doing town halls because I actually think those will get covered more.

With the breaking news nonstop that's happening, I just think that rallies, the first couple, if the vice president does them, will be huge. If they're huge, people will cover them. If they're not that big, people will cover them. Either will be a story. But I think that, you know, for us, Plouffe, we never ran a race together that wasn't

And therefore, Barack Obama knew that it, I mean, Kellyanne, in case no one's ever come on and said this, Plouffe's theory was always, if you're not on the high wire every day, why are you even showing up? And so that is, and that is, I think, how we operated. And we ran against two fiercely good candidates. John McCain campaigned really hard and so did Mitt Romney. And so I think that the,

The intensity tends to match the intensity. Right. So I think if Kamala Harris hits the road this weekend and is doing three or four events a day and is getting lots of coverage, I genuinely think that that will amp up the amount of events and the intensity of what the Trump campaign has been doing. Well, it also increase the opportunity for her to.

commit these gaffes and also to get her facts wrong or whatnot. So let's see. I think it is a high wire act and we'll see if she meets the moment. Every candidate faces that test, even those who run for reelection are facing that test. But there's probably a lot of renewed interest among many voters who were either sitting this one out, as I call the conscientious objectors, a lot of young people probably taking a new fresh look at this. And I will just say that I have to object to

even not so slightly to the comments about Trump's schedule. I mean, he came within an inch of his life at a rally on a Saturday in a swing state in Pennsylvania. He has since been to Michigan. In between that, he produced what everybody, even his detractors and critics were saying was a pretty darn great convention in Milwaukee. Well, up to his speech, Kellyanne, I might give you that was good up to that point. Yeah. I'm glad you liked my speech.

And your speech was good. His speech was awful. But we'll talk about that later. You're not a swing voter. I've seen what swing voters think about it. But look, I think it's also important that he talked to Ukrainian President Vladimir Zelensky this week. I think it's important he met with Boris Johnson. I think it's important that he's doing these podcasts. He's out there doing radio. He goes on television shows.

He's not afraid to pick up the phone and talk to Caitlin Collins of CNN, having just done their debate. I mean, the most important thing that Donald Trump did in the last month, in addition to his convention and surviving an assassin's bullet, also included beating Joe Biden in that debate, which was the beginning of the end for President Biden, who I frankly think deserved better from the people who were popping in blind quotes in the press, treating him with a lack of dignity and respect.

In the end, he did what he thought was best, but it wasn't like he jumped. He was pushed. And there is a lot of reckoning that will go on with that. And now it looks like exciting days. But I think the person that probably handled it the best, one of the people who handled the best was Vice President Harris going out there and still being his number two and acting as if he was going to be the nominee and is the nominee and then was able to slide in there.

But the thing about Trump and the schedule is he doesn't need to do these seven rallies a day. They're really expensive. They take a lot of I've said for a long time and now we'll say it for sure. You take a lot of Secret Service. Oh, I left that big event out. The head of the Secret Service resigned today. It's just like there's news every second. But I feel that I felt this way in 2020.

And I've written about it and talked about it extensively. The Trump campaign in 2020 never adapted to the fact that a roaring economy was no longer the number one issue on people's minds, particularly female voters. It was COVID. And we don't tell voters what's important to them. They tell us. And they tell us for how long. You couldn't put COVID on an egg timer as some people in his campaign who weren't even showing up anymore were doing.

can't do that. If this is what's on people's mind and women, particularly across this country, we're the chief healthcare officers of our households. We control two out of every healthcare dollars spent. We're worried about the kids home from school. Everybody's home from work. Our parents and grandparents are either in nursing homes, assisted living facilities or home by themselves. So everybody's worried about everybody and everybody knows somebody who knows somebody who's getting tested, who's hospitalized, who needs this. So it was a very fraught time. And if the campaign doesn't adapt,

So I always think that's true. If you don't adapt to unforeseen circumstances, then you're risking leaving some votes on the table. And it is something I want to say. Now, having said that, there's no question, maybe the two of you will disagree. I think she's very proud of it. So I don't know why any of us would disagree. You talked about Vice President Harris's Senate record. She's far to the left of Joe Biden.

She's kind of Bernie Sanders without the charm some days or Elizabeth Warren without the eloquence. But she's far to the left in her votes, in her statements, in the policy prescriptions that she told us she wanted to do from the debate stage in 2020, got criticized by Joe Biden and Cory Booker and Michael Bloomberg and Tulsi Gabbard, certainly, and others, people to judge. So I'm just trying to, who do you think,

Who do you think the Kamala Harris, the candidate for president will be? What will be her top three issues? And here's a big question on everybody's mind. How does she explain away the failure of the border? You got a lot of Democrats, Democratic governors criticizing it when she was named border czar. How did she escape that? I mean, look, every vice president gets tasked, right? I do think that when Joe Biden was Barack Obama's vice president,

Out of the gate, I think he had foreign policy, which he had been the, you know, chair of the Senate Foreign Relations Committee for a long time. And he had the Recovery Act, right? I don't remember what Mike Pence's portfolio was. What was Mike Pence's portfolio?

What was his remit when he was vice president? So it started out with health care, the judges, all the judicial appointments, certainly some of the executive orders that the president wanted to do right away, including the Mexico City policy and some others. And then he started traveling around the world, if not the country, but also the world. I mean, nobody felt uncomfortable sending Mike Pence on Air Force Two to go and represent us.

I mean, I remember Kamala Harris coming back. She was on her way back from Poland, insisting Putin would not invade Ukraine. And there he was invading Ukraine. Why would you even say something like that? She could just stay here and insult our intelligence. We don't need to fly around the world.

So, and he had lots of, I mean, he was in the room when al-Baghdadi was taken out, when Soleimani was taken out. He was the head of the Coronavirus Task Force is what it was called, because that's what we were calling it before it was called COVID-19. So I feel like there was plenty of that tax cut and jobs act. He was the number one person on the road doing that. So look, I don't think it's going to, that's the comparison here. I think that, I think right now,

Vice President Harris benefits from two things. She's basically conveying without even saying, I'm not Donald Trump and I'm not Joe Biden. The I'm not Joe Biden part is important to donors who all of a sudden coughed up money because they saw something the rest of us have seen for years with respect to President Biden on June 27th, that disastrous debate. And now you've got other people coming forward. But look, these are what took three and a half weeks to

let alone three and a half years to replace Joe Biden with Kamala Harris. Why not do it that night? Why not go to him and say, I mean, I've been saying this, I'm on the record many places. They should have done this 18 months ago. Say to Joe Biden, you finally got the brass ring. You ran for president three times in two different centuries. You finally won. You got the brass ring. You got rid of Donald Trump. So we'll always be grateful to you.

And number three, as Democrats, and number three, now you can elevate and help this country elect the first female president of color in our nation's history. Nobody can go and tell them that because they were afraid of Kamala Harris. I mean, Van Jones sat next to me at the milking conference and Jim Messina was there, your former colleague. Van's a former colleague of yours. And we talked for an hour and 20 minutes.

Paul Ryan was on the panel. And I said, there are two words that have never come up the entire hour and 20 minutes. Kamala Harris. It never, she never comes up anywhere. Nobody wants to, the Democrats never want to talk about her. And Dan Jones said, listen, that's a good point because if there was more confidence in Kamala Harris,

Joe Biden's age would be more of an issue. This is early May. The debate's six weeks later, and here we are. Well, I will say, Van may have some good quips on Milken panels and CNN. He's never run a campaign, so I don't take anything him or anyone who's never actually been on the field of battle seriously.

says seriously. What about the border? How does she overcome it? Listen, I think the border is easy, which is there was tons. Listen, there was huge border crossings when Trump was president. We have border crossings. Not like this. Well, they're down. We had a deal with Republican conservative senators. Trump killed it because he said it would hurt him politically. And this is a guy who won't solve any problem because he wants the issue. Well, at the end of the day, I can't wait. Listen, I don't think Trump will debate. I think he's showing great cowardice.

now trying to slip out of the day. But if they debate, I can't wait till they have this immigration exchange. Did she debate on Fox News? Well, they've agreed to one. Then we'll see. I hope there's more, but they've agreed to one. He agreed to it.

So I can't wait for this. But Alyssa, I'm curious. So you've got the next week for her and Trump. You're right. I agree. Trump will probably increase his activity if she does. You've got the Olympics. Then you've got the convention. So it's still going to be a crazy. And then maybe the debate on September 10th. We'll see. I like your idea about town halls a lot.

And I think the point you made about social media is important, which is there's no doubt that I think her appeal and her team's skill with social media will be a huge advantage because I think that was missing with Joe Biden. But that that only, you know, I think reaches a segment of the electorate we have to convert here. So how do you think about, OK, you've got one hundred and one days, you've got early vote.

You've got like, I'm Kamala Harris. Who's I? Here's who I am. Yeah, that's some vice president. Let me remind you who I am. Here's what I want to do as president. Here's that how that contrasts with Trump. You have seven battleground states, although right now I think you clearly say there's three in the one category and hopefully you get the other four. And like, just how are you thinking about apportionment of time? And one question I have for you is given $100 million, which I agree will not, you're not going to have $100 million days left.

But, you know, my hope is she doesn't have to spend much time fundraising herself. She can really just bunker in these states. But as you think about you and I used to do this a lot, like the pie chart, are we being faithful to what we said was important in terms of allocation of time? What's your thought about that? Honestly, one of the things I hope someone on the campaign is doing right now is putting together the most.

hardcore surrogate operation that everyone that it always surrogate operations always kind of get short shrift. There's something that people think about sort of at the last minute, but I would have a map on the wall with where early vote starts in every single state. And I would be there days in advance and I would have surrogates blanketing those places, getting people out to early vote as much as they can. I think that that is going to be so critically important because sure.

she really, she and whoever her vice president will be really don't have that much time, right? And so I think that to me, that is the most important thing. I mean, Plouffe, you remember, and this is, I guess, what I just feel like I haven't seen a lot in the past couple of years and do hope to see. Kellyanne, one of the, I think, most fun, for lack of a better word, things that Plouffe and I did, we came up with this idea on the plane. We were like, we have to show people. I think that we were always...

very focused on showing people how much we wanted the job, right? I do think people want to see that you want the job. And we put together a 48 hour day, right? It was 48 hours. And honestly, it got more coverage because it was different. And so I think that if people, whether it's the Trump campaign or the Harris campaign,

showing people sort of outside the box things that do get attention. Like, I just do think that certain things are boring and trite and people aren't that interested in seeing them anymore. I think that the Democrats in this instance are lucky that their campaign is, that their convention rather is in August. I think that is a moment that they,

You know, I watched every night of the Republican convention. You know, I wanted to see what was happening. And so I hope I do think that that level of interest is also a level of scrutiny and that, you know, how they program the convention is also going to be really important. Got to keep people's attention. Speeches do not keep people's attention. So I would say that they have to find ways to keep people's attention. I'll be interested to see who the keynote is. I think that will also speak a lot. Who do you think the vice president should be or will be?

I would say, look, I think Mark Kelly is a great example. He's got a bio that's so easy to explain. It's like

Military, astronaut, Senate, his wife is Gabby Giffords, Democratic governor, easy to replace the seat if he were to be picked. I think Josh Shapiro in Pennsylvania. I am loathe to ever say that someone who is from a state brings a state. I do think that his favorables in Pennsylvania do mean a lot. And I think that he's really dynamic and would be a great campaigner.

I'd say those are probably my top two. Well, does Joshua Peele have an identical twin brother? Because Mark Kelly does, and he can probably cover twice the ground. Unless he's in outer space. In today's world, you might get away with that. Yeah. AI. No, I think this is important, though, because some of us felt this was brewing for a while before.

I just felt like there was nobody in any type of authority who was suggesting Joe Biden leave the race. So that was up to him and ultimately made that decision. But I did say on Jesse Waters 10 days ago or two weeks ago Thursday. So whenever that was 12 days ago, that if, you know, Operation Remove Biden accelerates, if they think you can have a Harris Shapiro, I just gave that as an example, maybe stabilize the Jewish vote. Shapiro is excellent on Israel.

take Pennsylvania off the map or make it much more competitive anyway. So it's also, you know, where do you force each other to spend time and resources, time and money? I know Governor Youngkin thinks Virginia is already competitive. Maybe go spend, force Kamala Harris now to spend some time there. So it'll be fascinating to see that if the electoral map stays the same. I think she has spent a lot of time in North Carolina with Roy Cooper and campaigning there, a state that President Trump carried twice, but by two tenths of a percentage point in 2020.

And so that's something I, again, if Trump wins North Carolina, Georgia, Pennsylvania, he wins. So now that she has an opportunity to choose a VP, they have to be looking at the same calculus. Well, I'd be curious because both of you have been part of VP selections. So there is the electoral. And I think just given where the race is, she probably has to over index a little bit on the electoral. But I think most presidential candidates actually prioritize like if I win, is this someone I'd like to give?

portfolio assignments to? Would they be a good counselor? Could they be a good president if something happens to me? I'm just curious for both of you, like, is this going to be like much more weighted to the campaign than a normal selection would be? It feels that way to me.

You know, it feels that way to me. I think that, you know, Kamala Harris picking someone who she really gels with, I think is important. I think that a really electric team helps. I mean, I'm not, I'm not saying it was the best choice ever, but the John Edwards, which I was really a part of that rollout and that selection was,

That was a really dynamic team out of the gate. It gave people, there was a lot of energy. I think that the thing about that that I thought worked so well is that John Kerry had this knock on him that he was this Brahmin, this statesman, and then you had John Edwards who was, you know,

very like an advocate for poverty and, and had this young family and was really energetic. I just think that, that there's a real yin and yang that works. There's a yin and yang that works if it works, if that makes sense. It's very true. It's also her first big decision, right? First decision as the candidate. And I think it's a, I think it's a pretty weighty one. There's no doubt. I also just wonder, does everybody want the job?

Maybe they see themselves as sacrificial lambs. You know, maybe they want to run their own race in 2028. Who knows? So I think that's why some of them weren't really clawing their way ahead of the pack this time either, because there's such a short amount of time. There's such a small window. And I guess the sitting vice president has that advantage. But it is her first decision. I thought the Kerry Edwards ticket was smart, too.

He did have a young family, but he also had an even younger mistress. Okay, Kellyanne. Should we go back in time for all these things? And well, all we have to do is hear about my side. But no, I thought that was, first of all, I thought that race was much closer than it should have been.

So maybe what you just explained was part of that. I have one last question for you, Alyssa. I'm going to mute David. I actually can't do that from here, but I'm going to mute him a second. I just want to ask you, Alyssa, with all these rumors swirling around that the Harris team...

unsurprisingly, would like David Plouffe to take a role on their campaign. Do you really think you should give up this podcast? Do you think you should go work for Congress? Look, none of us should give up our podcasts. We should just do them remotely from maybe Wilmington, Delaware. I don't know. Well, it's a credit to him that they would even think that way. And I think that...

you know, these, the, every campaign is different. Every candidate is different. I feel like these campaign cycles are in dog years because technology changes. And I remember president Bill Clinton saying in 2015, when his wife was running or maybe early 2016, but it was a seminal piece in the, in the New York times about him, like what to do with bill, you know, how do you, how do you work with a would be, you know, first gentleman who's been a president and, and

He said, listen, he said something like, you know, I don't think iPads and iPhones and none of this was invented when I ran. And he said something at the end, which I really have never forgotten. He said at the very end of that article, look, I'm a grandfather now. I just don't want to be mad at people. And it's like so incisive. And, you know, it's something good to remember. But let's see. Let's see what happens. Let's see if the pull of history is enough to overcome some of these, you know, really wild stereotypes.

statements and positions that she has taken. I think that if you just had a roll tape of Democrats criticizing Kamala Harris over time, um,

There's that. But we have the same on the other side. Exactly. I mean, everyone who has run for president and gone through the primary process has loads of tape about everybody criticizing everybody. I mean, one of I mean, there are some greatest hits between Hillary and Barack Obama that even now, many years later, we all enjoy. But the one thing I want to say before I go is that if there are rumors that

about David Plouffe being called up. Let me just tell you why.

Because when we were on the Obama campaign, David Plouffe was the person who demanded no ego. You were there to do a job. Years later, when he was like, listen, someday we may all be called up and it'll be like Ocean's Eleven where we all have to go back in time and do the highest and do what we are uniquely qualified for, right? And you want the man on your side who

who like threw his laptop in the garbage the day after the campaign, did what he was to do and went on. And it wasn't about power and it wasn't about getting a job in the White House or any of those things. And so if people are talking about David Plouffe, that is why. And if anybody brought him on board, he knows that I would follow him. Wow. Yes. Well, David Plouffe is still David. Nobody can choose his Kamala Harris, Barack Obama. Oh, all right. Well, Alyssa, thank you for that.

Well, I will say this. There's nobody better to be in a foxhole with than Alyssa Mastermonica. But I think we should say, Alyssa, that obviously there's all these parlor games about who should join campaigns, who shouldn't. And I think we'd be the first people to say we have the greatest of confidence in General Mally Dillon and a bunch of the people working for her and with her. And I think Kamala Harris is lucky to inherit that type of talent as she embarks on this

extraordinarily challenging. It's exciting. I'm excited. Yeah. I think we went from little to no chance to a fighting chance, even though I still think it's going to be hard. And that's always good. It's going to be hard. It's going to be a slog. But it's going to be amazing, fun, but incredibly hard because, and you're right, Kelly, and the last thing I'll say on the VP pick, and I agree with Alyssa, it should be done as quickly as possible. There's a lot of benefit to that. But that person's going to get shot out of a cannon too. Mm.

I mean, we already see some of the growing pains with J.D. Vance. You know, he's been in the Senate just a couple of years, all VP. Biden maybe struggled with this a little bit less back in eight because he'd been around. But you've got to learn a new way of doing things. It's not your message anymore. A new team, new team. It's hard. But this person's like the vetting is going to be what, a week?

And then you're on center stage on Broadway. It's a crazy campaign. It really is. I guess it's hard to imagine we'll have one like it again. But anyway, thank you for those comments. And most importantly, thank you for joining us. It was always great to get your expertise. Alyssa, thank you so much. Really enjoyed it. All the best to you. Thank you both.

Alyssa Mastromonaco, a very integral part of President Obama's administration and West Wing, as was our own David Plouffe. Check out her podcast every week, Hysteria, if you want to catch more of her. She was a great guest today. Yeah, that was a great discussion with Alyssa. Thanks to her for joining us. Remember, everyone, it is easy to be enraged. It is essential to be engaged. Have a great week, everyone. We'll see you next time.

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