Creativity, Burnout and Life Beyond Productivity with Maria Bowler
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You don't wake up dreaming of McDonald's fries.

You wake up dreaming of McDonald's hash browns. McDonald's breakfast comes first. Um, how are you? Most of us say fine or good, but obviously it's not always fine and sometimes it's not even that good. This is a podcast that gives people the space to be honest about how they really feel.

It's a place to talk about life, the good, the bad, the awkward, the complicated. I'm Nora McInerney, and this is Thanks for Asking. ♪

Hello and welcome back to Thanks for Asking, the call-in show about what matters to you. This episode is a little bit different. It is not a phone call. This is not a call-in. This is a call-out. This is an interview episode. It's been a while since we've done one of these, but I wanted to make space within this show for conversations with our

authors of books that I have really enjoyed and books that I think would be relevant or helpful to you. This conversation is for anybody who feels burned out,

which the last time I checked seemed to be pretty much everybody. Modern life is quite exhausting. And I say that as a person who is self-employed and has been self-employed for 10 years. I am the worst boss that I have ever had. I look around at...

my peers, people who are around my age, people who are even a little bit older, people who are a little bit younger, and it feels like everybody is really exhausted, really exhausted trying to keep up with the demands of modern life. And I have found a lot of comfort in the writing and thinking of today's author, Maria Bowler.

Her newish book, still new, still new, came out in January. Her book is called Making Time, A New Vision for Crafting a Life Beyond Productivity. I read this book recently.

very, very quickly, even though it's not meant to be read quickly. It is really meant to be savored for you to dip in and out of. This is not a self-help book. You will not find a formula in here. You will not find any hacks, but you will find really thought-provoking ideas. You will find a lot of insights. You will find inspiration for

your own life, whether or not you are a person whose life revolves around creative output or whether or not that is your career field. I think that the spirit of this book really applies to anybody.

who is living in the world that we are living in and just feels like they're not doing enough, they are not enough, and that they should be doing something that it should feel easier, right? It should feel easier. So enough of me. Let's get into the conversation with Maria. Okay, this is starting 10 minutes late, and Maria...

My cortisol level at a technological issue that happens truly every single time I record or have recorded for the past eight years was probably at levels that no doctor could have anticipated or understood, levels that doctors would marvel at. That is why this book and all of your work

resonates so deeply with me because chased by a tiger or a woolly mammoth or whatever is coded into my DNA is actually manifesting itself in the year 2025 as, oh my gosh, that was 10 minutes that could have been us making a

content, doing our work, doing our good jobs, being good girls and getting things done. And I wasted it with whatever happened between the cords and the things. And that's what we're going to talk about today. I love the segue. That was elegant. Was it? So Maria, you are

not American. And I have to point that out because people, me, tend to believe that Canadians are superior in every conceivable way, that you are a cut above, not just geographically above us, but above us on like a higher plane of consciousness. The things that we struggle with certainly can't have infected you, our big sisters from the North,

And yet your work would suggest otherwise. So I would love to know prior to being the kind of person who could write this book about creating a life beyond productivity, what your relationship was to productivity.

Thank you for that. Yeah. I mean, I, I'm curious to hear how it would be articulated in different generations, but for me being born in the mid eighties, it was definitely the vibe of like, you can do anything. You can be anything like let's build up our self-esteem and therefore you must do everything. And it's very, you focused.

And, um, possibilities are endless. There was, uh, at least, at least in, uh, my corner of, you know, suburban Winnipeg, right? I don't know that this was the case for everyone, but that was certainly the vibe at that moment in history for, for, uh, my corner of life. So, um, I absorbed that and I, you know, associated my okayness with, um,

the honor roll. And if not the honor roll, at least like not failing. It was just, you know, you can be okay. You can, uh, climb a ladder that is totally available in front of you. And it makes sense was the promise of the time. Like you can get the, you can go to college, you can get the job, or if you don't go to college, you can get a different kind of job that will provide you a life. And, um, and of course I tried and, um,

And when I succeeded, it didn't work. And then when it didn't work, it didn't work. As I sort of became an adult and I was an editor, I sat across people as a coach and spiritual director. I taught undergraduates. And in all of those scenarios, I found that different people were coming to me with the same version of that problem, which was like,

It's not working. Like, I just can't make the schedule work. If I just got the right routine down, then it would be okay. Can you help me get a great routine? Or can you help me? Like, can you tell me how to get my writing life right? Depending on the context. But it was the same question, which was like, there's got to be a secret for what to do.

There's got to be a cheat code. And once I figure out that cheat code, then everything will make sense. I know this feeling all too well. I always feel like I'm one app, notebook, pen, or schedule away from unlocking things.

something. And in my experience, that kind of mentality has meant that even when, and I was really struck by you saying when it worked, it didn't work. And when it didn't work, it didn't work. When things have worked for me, right? Like objectively, if I looked at my life in any sense, personally, professionally from the eyes of myself 10 years ago or 20 years ago, 15,

15 in the middle of those two numbers. Or as a child, I would say like, you did it. You got it. You got it. You did it. And also...

Every accomplishment has been tainted by that mindset of, well, I guess I should be doing more or it should feel differently. It is basically meant for me that I have metabolized every accomplishment before even tasting it. Nothing feels good or tastes good because it could be something else. It could be better. What did it feel like and what were those moments for you when it was working and not working?

I remember when I got a job at a magazine in New York City. Coming from Winnipeg, I couldn't imagine anything more glamorous. There wasn't anything more glamorous. For listeners who are any other age group, working at a magazine is

in New York City was what our generation of women was promised to be the most glamorous, most fulfilling, most, the apex.

of literally everything. And guess what, Maria? I never made it, baby. I didn't make it there. Okay. I tried. I tried. I was offered an internship, $50 a day for FHM magazine, for HIM magazine. It was like a dirtier version of Maxim. Obviously I nailed it because I was like, well, I know how to write like an idiot man. And my dad was like, how will you support yourself on $50 a day? And I was like, um,

may I and he said no and I was like okay wow okay but you made it baby you made it to magazines and I think we do need to take a moment to appreciate uh that accomplishment I the the aspirational 20-something in me sees the aspirational 20-something of you and I was somewhere in Brooklyn

Like seething with jealousy while working in public relations and being very bad at it, I should say. PR was another dream. That's another version of it. That was another dream. Then I got there and I was like, well, I'm just sitting in a cubicle typing emails? It's truly so unglamorous. Like taking three subways every day from Brooklyn. We were walking in the weirdest ballet flats and it's like that could not have been good for us.

feet. It was like, that was the era of ballet flats too. It was like ballet flats with everything, everything. You're walking eight miles a day, ballet flats. Yeah. Just trying to keep it together in my button up and under the fluorescent lights. Yeah. Yeah. And getting there and realizing like, yeah, this was the thing that I thought I wanted. But of course, um,

The way you have to be to get there is the way you have to maintain being there. And so if I hustled to get there, which I did, I didn't get to coast once I was there. It was just like, oh, no, now you're afraid of losing the thing.

And every goal is like that when we have this sense that we are just one thing away from being who we really want to be. Goals become like threats or like aspirations or ideals become sort of this thing hanging over our head. And then once we get there, the feeling that we sort of motivated ourselves by, whether it was like the fear of losing out, the fear of not getting there, that doesn't go away. Right.

You just either pick a new goal or you try to prevent losing it. So that was certainly my experience. And that was a bit of a crisis at that time. Did you know that it was a crisis? Because at that age of my life in that era, I truly thought

okay, it's a crisis because there's something wrong with me. Like everyone else has got to be feeling better than this. Everybody else must have figured it out. It's me. I'm the problem. I did blame myself. I think I realized that I had borrowed a version of success that was only really partial to me. I remember thinking, I'm like, oh, if this is me, like at my best –

And this is what it's like to show up at me at my best. And there's a huge, I felt like there was this huge other part of me that was screaming, but like had no space to be expressed. Like the only thing that was valued was sort of like a little sliver.

of reality. And that's what it felt like. I felt like there's this just giant disconnect. And I'm like, oh, but I thought that if I could just be like smart enough, sharp enough, like witty enough, that was sort of the currency at that in that sphere. Then I would feel like okay with myself and fully accepted. And yeah, I didn't.

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started and completed The Artist's Way. Yes. And I've seen a lot of memes that are like, the true artist's way is never finishing The Artist's Way. It took me, I would say I bought and donated that book approximately seven to 10 times. I would see it at the thrift store, buy it, be like, today I'm going to do it, start the morning pages and then abandon it. When did you

discover the artist's way and what did it do for you? I discovered it in grad school. I was walking in a bookstore with my friend Claire and she pointed it out and said like, oh, my parents did that and really liked it. And I latched onto it like an oasis in the desert. I was obsessed. So

I became an evangelist too. Like I was really annoying, like giving copies to my friends. The morning pages were really, really big for me. I never really connected with the artist states that much, but yeah,

Yeah, it became like a place to show up without trying to get anywhere. That was what the morning pages did for me. Yeah, yeah. And that's, to me, that was the hardest part. Like, and that's why I always abandoned it was I was just thinking, I need to do a good job at morning pages.

Mm hmm. Like I better I better be discovering something every morning. And it's like the point is to literally just write. You could write anything. And that's how deep, deeply ingrained, like the good job, like do everything right, do everything perfectly was ingrained in me that I couldn't even free write three pages without feeling like I was doing it wrong.

That's real. And I still struggle with that. And I still do morning pages, but they're kind of not quite morning pages. And I still find myself trying to make them a problem-solving exercise. And then I stop for a while and then I come back to it. That's the thing. We're always trying to fix something. Yeah. Yeah. Always trying to fix something. Always trying to accomplish something. And I loved your writing about dread. Yeah.

dread and doing. Will you talk to us about that? Right. So there's a little chapter in the first section about how dread functions in the land of productivity, which is sort of what I call our culture. And dread, the way that I describe it, is a different feeling than fear or panic. It's a specific...

thing um is actually a specific way of trying to control against the instability of the world and it keeps us feeling um very busy so it's like we see it in the doomsday prepper world which is a

very profitable industry that keeps you feeling like if you just can protect yourself enough, if you can think ahead enough to everything that could go wrong and then prepare against it, then you will be okay. But then you just keep searching out new problems and it becomes this loop. What is your dread into doing trigger personally? Health. So looking at...

Something that, like, my aging body or the aging body of the, you know, health of my family. And then I immediately go into, like, oh, I need to do everything I can to not get some, not to feel worse. So, yeah. Like, these me, like, buying supplements, like, trying to think of a new plan. That kind of anticipation, which is,

actually indicates that like, I don't trust a future version of myself. Like I need to somehow do it now. Yeah. Yeah. It's, um, I, I do that too. I have like all these little, I had a friend of mine design these little phrases that I had originally written on post-it notes, but the post-its were falling all over. And one says like, let future you figure it out because it's

Like give her something, give her something to do. Like, that's okay. Like, why are you, why exactly? Why aren't you trusting that version of yourself? Like, why are you assuming her helplessness? And probably because I, we have that sense of like helplessness around our present selves in some ways. Yeah. Yeah.

There's kind of an obvious question that I'm sure you have been and will be asked 6,000 times. So let me just be one of the million people to ask you it. How do you produce this entire point of the book, by the way, guys, how do you produce work that you are proud of without getting stuck in the productivity trap? Yeah.

Let me think about that. Personally, like on a personal level. Yeah. But also it's like, guys, that is the point of the book. That's in the book. Yeah. Okay. This is going to sound strange. Yeah. It can sound a little out there, but one of the distinctions that was revelatory for me was

was the distinction of feeling like I'm producing something, meaning like it's coming from some blank space inside me and I'm like wrenching it out and forming it. And it's just me by myself. And I'm like, I'm the engine. I'm the little engine that could pushing, like I'm mixing metaphors, but like I'm pushing myself up this hill. Like that's the feeling of producing something that I'm quote unquote proud of.

The other alternative is feeling like I am participating in something coming into being. So I am actually not the only thing that is making this thing happen. I am like, I'm getting ideas from like the ether. I am, I'm just making myself available for this thing. And I,

I did not stay in that second mindset the whole time at all. In fact, there were moments in writing the book where I was like, I fully was like forcing it so hard that I had to stop and needed help because I'd never written something of this size before. Like I just, my capacity for a project of like this length needed to grow. So that was really, really hard, but at my best, um,

I was able to feel like, okay, like I am, I don't need, I'm not, I don't need to force this. This thing is like going to come through me. And I'm like, I'm just participating. Like, and I found that that if I like tuned my dial that way, um, that would make it easier. And then my sense of pride in it felt like a little bit more like humble in a sense. Cause it's like, I know that I didn't scrape this all together. It's like, I just kind of

helped facilitate it. Yeah. I, I, I'm going to come back to the artist's way. I want everybody to know that I did not take, uh, uh, my Adderall today also did not have a cup of coffee today has been a, uh, a chaotic day and in years or months past, I would, uh,

Truly admonish myself and dig in. You did a bad job and you didn't get it. But instead we're going to take this chaos train. We're going to pull back into the station called the artist's way, because I actually do think that this book is a great companion piece to the artist's way. And I think that this book is written by,

to be incredibly helpful to anybody, whether or not you are in a creative profession or even just, you know, even if you would not consider yourself like a creative, this book is written in such beautifully sized pieces and ideas that it can be a balm to anybody who feels burned out or stuck or overwhelmed.

What were the practices that kept you grounded, kept you calm? Because

Writing a book, right, is like you said, it's a huge project. The world, everybody's job is filled with huge, overwhelming projects. No matter what your career is, there's something big that is always like looming ahead of you. Something that you do have to like sit down and produce. And there's all these external factors that you kind of have to guard yourself against in a way to keep yourself from totally losing your mind. Right.

Yep. Yep. I tricked myself into writing this book. I told myself that I wasn't really writing a book, that I was kind of just doing a prank. Like, so I saw this ad. This ad was served to me on Instagram and it was like, write your short nonfiction book. And the ad was so cheesy that I was like, that guy can do it. I can do it. Like, that seems like...

I could not think of it as literature. Like I could not think of it as – No. Right? Like it couldn't be a capital B book for me. It was like, no, this is like – it was like a little dare. Yeah. And so what that looks like in – I've literally told my kids and my friends, I'm like, stupid people do stuff all day every day. And they don't think twice. They don't question themselves. Pretend you're stupid. Yeah. Pretend you're stupid. It doesn't have –

It doesn't have to be that serious. Like that's such a huge block, especially like the more – and the more you care about something, the more you often like hesitate around it because it becomes really precious and it becomes this thing that like really special people do and it's a special world and that is – it keeps you at a distance from it and it keeps you also kind of like on your best behavior. Yeah. If you're – Yeah. Yeah.

And then like what – are you really most yourself? Are you really bringing forth what's most alive when you're like on your best behavior? Probably not. So literally my practice was to write 500 words by hand in my little corner of the coffee shop and not tell – like a day. And just like not tell anyone what I was doing. That's great.

It was like a little joke. Yeah. That's how most of it got written. 500 words by hand in a coffee shop, nice and casual. Like it doesn't have to be that serious. I really like that approach. I really like that approach because I feel like I've spent most of my adult career and I've had many, many careers in my adult life. I spent most of it kind of in a panic mode.

looking for a template or a map or something and just basically saying like, you tell me how to do it and I will do it that way. And that has been my worst work in every industry is being like, okay. Same. Same. Because you're not really showing up when that's happening. You're showing up as this, I don't know, version of you that...

you think you should be and your brain, I don't know. I feel like my brain isn't ever fully online when I'm right. Like imitating what I think. So I should be doing. Yeah. When you are like constantly glancing over at how other people do it and you've spoken before, and I hate to be a person who's quoting like, you know, your Instagram stories, but here we are. You've spoken before about comparison and that is a, um,

it's an irresistible part of modern life. Like it's irresistible in the force that we, it's irresistible in the sense that we literally can't resist it because we are constantly fed snippets of

visions of other people's success. And it's irresistible to me in the sense that it's like pushing a bruise, you know, to go look at somebody else's work or life and be like, oh, but you didn't do that. You little loser. Yep. That is very real.

what did I say about comparison? Cause I genuinely don't remember. Like that it rots your, like, uh, you were talking about, you were walking through the woods, I believe, um, you were walking, your lipstick looked great. And you were talking about, um, comparison, basically like sapping your, you know, creativity. And, and I, I just felt that so deeply because that has been a, uh,

huge part of my journey. And also I've seen other people feel that about me, you know, and even like kind of express it to me. And I'm like, babe, I don't know what to tell you. Like nothing is as good as it looks, nothing. And I can be very grateful for this life. And also like, you know, enjoy yours, like enjoy, enjoy what you have. And like, there's nothing like seeing somebody else's comparison and

to sort of free you from yours in my experience. I love that you bring up both those experiences because that is so true. I've been thinking a lot about how I have the function of comparison for me has actually been to like fill in what would otherwise just be empty space in my life or my head that I am feeling uncomfortable in.

Like I'm a week and a half out from this book being released. It's a weird nebulous period. I'm blessing you right now. I'm just sending you all the, it's the worst. Right? Yeah. And it's the unknowing that is so uncomfortable. So I'm actually like noticing my brain wanting to use comparison to just fill in that space.

Oh, instead of just being like, I actually have no total control over the book that's already written. I have limited control over, you know, what I do to share it. And so that's so intolerable that I'm going to fill in stories about other people. But it's just like,

leave this, leave the space there. Yeah. And not, not fill it. Yeah. But your, your point in that, like other, like experiencing other people making up things about you, you, you realize when people do that, like, oh, they have filled in an entire world about me that does not exist because it does something for them. Like,

And that makes sense, but it's just not... It's fantasy. It's not reality.

Hi guys, it's Nora. If you like what we've done here on Terrible Things for Asking, you might want to check out our YouTube channel. We have two new videos going up every week over at youtube.com slash at feelings and co. That's feelings and co. There's a link to it in our show description. So see over on YouTube if that's what you're into. What a sales gal I am.

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Okay, I had the most brilliant question, then it literally evaporated from my mind and I watched it float away. And I was like, who did you write this book for? Like, who do you hope picks up this book? Yeah, I definitely wrote it for people who are suspicious of yet another plan.

and another self-help book, but who also really long for a life that is really intentional and full of the meaning that they want to express. So they don't want to say like, I don't, I don't want anything. I'm just going to like sit here and tell myself that I have no desires. I believe that, you know, we are, we're restless creatures because we want to

make meaning. We have like, we're beautiful, creative creatures. Like we don't want to just sit there, but the alternative we're given is like, okay, like use all that energy to like fix what's wrong with you. And like basically, um, use it to make capitalism function and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And so, um, I have in mind someone who is a version of me who is

does not want another five-step plan or another like acronym, but deeply wants to experience themselves as a whole creative human who wants to engage deeply in the world. Like I think we're, we're meaning making creatures. We want to, we want to be in our life in a, in a really alive way, but not in like an optimized, idealized self way. The optimizing. It's like, we got to stop demise.

is what I'm saying. Don't stop to mind. And that's when that catches on.

I am so wary of anything that's about optimization, efficiency, anything that promises me more. I've declared this year the year of less. I am going to do less. I'm going to say no more. I am going to have more white space in my days and not try to fill it. And

I'm going to tell you a story and then I want to know if you have an experience like this. When you pull back from the productivity trap, my inclination, it is so hard not to let... It's almost like when you...

Oh God, I'm trying to think of like a, I can't, there's no metaphors in the world at this point. They've all deleted. But you know, like when you're like at the beach and you like dig out a little space in the sand and then the water laps back up and all of a sudden it's, it's filled in and, and you dig it again. And that to me is like, when I pull something away, when I carve out space, it is hard for the oceans of my life.

productivity monster, not to just fill it in. I started playing video games a few years ago. I got myself a Nintendo Switch. I do not share it with the kids. They have one. I've got one. And the games that I gravitated towards

Stardew Valley. It's a beautiful story game. You can kind of choose your own adventure. The way that I just set up a farm and got to work and was like, I got to milk these cows. I got to get more cows. I got to make more money. What? Okay. Step away from that game. I get a game called Lemon Cake, where you arrive at this decrepit old bakery and it is your job to

renovate the bakery. But to do that, you have to make baked goods and sell them. And I realized four days into playing this game, this game is simply capitalism. And all I am doing is selling more pastries to fix more ovens so I can bake more pastries and make more money to fix more ovens and grow more ingredients so I can sell more pastries. And in my free time, I'm

My relaxing time. I was stressing out about being productive in a video game. That's what it is. I was the opposite of relaxing. I filled in my unproductive time trying desperately to be productive in a video game. It's amazing. It's amazing. It's amazing. It's amazing. We are like, yeah, that adrenaline is addictive. Yes. Yes.

Yeah. No, that is, that's so real. I get that feeling when I'm supposed to be, you know, just hanging out on the weekend with my family. Like, you're not supposed to be working. And I'm like, okay, like, what can I be doing while we're watching a family movie? And can I be, like, just sitting there can feel deeply intolerable. It comes, I think, from this, like, partial identity issue that, like,

we're given this identity that we are what we do. And so if we're not doing anything, then we don't count. We're literally nothing. There's something we have to constantly fill some imaginary gap that's been created by someone who isn't us. And so I want to wrap this up by talking a little bit about legacy. It's where you end the book and it is a really beautiful story.

thought is a beautiful place. And I get there sometimes and then I'm like, ah, maybe for other people. But, uh, it's so hard to, it's so hard. And we see so many memes about this, right? Like where people are saying, uh, Oh, these are the common thoughts of the dying, right? They're not, they're not worried about work or what they did. They want to know that, you know, they, they mattered personally that they did this. I, I,

was raised by people who were, um, believe deeply in, in laziness. God bless them. Mom, if you're listening to this, I'm not mad at you. Okay, babe, I'm not mad at you. You did a great job. Um, dad, wherever you are, like relax. It's okay. Um, I, I, my, one of my core memories as a child is my obviously ADHD anxious grandfather never sitting down.

Not once. When I went up to the cabin with him, my cousins and I were commiserating about this recently. He would give us a wheelbarrow, three little girls, and say, move this pile of bricks.

And I'll take you for ice cream. We'd get done. He'd be like, oh, I never said when I'd take you to ice cream. And I got to move this pile of logs from here to here. Just wheelbarrowing constantly. The entire time we're up at the cabin, we're moving bricks. We're moving logs. We're doing something. He's buzzing around. My mom has never sat down in her life. You know, like just it's just constant. And I have that, too. I have that, too. And the way that it works.

affects other people and not just my kids, because not everyone's a mom and you don't have to be, by the way, it's not for everybody. And I say that with the utmost respect, but it infects everybody. It is a weird, unsettling energy to project into the world. And is that really how we want to be remembered as people who got a lot done? Right, right, right.

I think we can feel when people are doing something and when we're doing something from a sense of trying to feel like we're okay versus when we're doing something from a place of knowing we're already okay. And if we're around someone, like, okay, it reminds me of when, like, you make a friend with someone and they're always apologizing for themselves. And you're like –

Oh, you're making me feel like I need to apologize for myself because you're apologizing for yourself. You're actually telegraphing that not just that you're not okay, but that you're telling me that I'm also not okay. So when I think about what we leave for other people, I'm trying to speak against this

This idea that we need to know exactly how we're contributing and we need to know the value of our actions. Like, okay, but like, what are people going to talk about when you die? And I get how that can be a helpful orienting question for some people. And it's not wrong, but...

There's something much more mysterious in the way that we contribute to each other. And it has so much to do with the things we don't calculate. It's just so much to do with just the quality of our presence. We love our friends and we are impacted by our friends, not because they picked us up from the airport or because they brought the great snacks. Unless they love making snacks, then we love that they love it. But it's the quality of their presence. And so

I think like counting our impact, counting our legacy, sort of counting in advance, like, okay, but like what will come from what I'm going to, from this effort that I want to do is like, is going to distract us. So the way that we're connected with each other is a lot more experience, mysterious, but also a lot more like fruitful. Like this conversation is going to like,

impact me and stay with me because of how you are being not because you like asked the perfect question or like had the but did I ask the perfect question yeah that too totally totally but is this the best is this the best podcast you've ever been on is this totally

Thanks so much for joining us here today. That was Maria Bowler, her book, Making Time, a new vision for crafting a life beyond productivity is available now, wherever you get your books. We will also have links in our show description to this conversation.

You can find all of my work, all of my new writing, full episodes of this podcast, our full back catalog of terrible thanks for asking and new episodes of thanks for asking over on our sub stack. We'll link that in the show notes and episode description as well.

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Hi guys, it's Nora. If you like what we've done here on Terrible Things for Asking, you might want to check out our YouTube channel. We have two new videos going up every week over at youtube.com slash at feelings and co. That's feelings and co. There's a link to it in our show description. So see over on YouTube if that's what you're into. What a sales gal I am.